1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: We've been focused on Guyana this season, and for good reason. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: It's on track to become the world's largest oil producer 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: per capita in the next decade. But it's also important 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: to note that what's happening in Guyana is pretty illustrative 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: of what's happening all over the world right now. There 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: is a global oil rush and it's hitting the Caribbean 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: region and Africa particularly hard. Today, I'm bringing you a 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: conversation with reporter Jeff Goodell at Rolling Stone, who's just 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: written a scorching piece on what's been happening in Namibia, 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: particularly with respect to a company that seems to have 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: claimed on paper that there are billions of barrels of 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: oil on its land, but never actually proven that there's 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: anything there that never stops them from drilling though right 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: next to a UNESCO World Heritage Site, no less, and 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: those completely unnecessary exploratory wells have caused plenty of environmental damage. 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: Jeff went to Namibia to figure out what the heck 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: has been going on. He's going to talk us through 18 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 1: all of it, how it fits in with what we've 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: been seeing in Guyana, and how it all relates to 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: the global oil rush. After this quick break. 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: My name is Jeff Goodell. I am a writer at 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: Rolling Stone and the author of a number of books 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: about energy and climate change. 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 3: We're talking because you just wrote this massive feature about 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 3: oil exploration in Namibia and a little bit in Botswana 26 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: in Africa in general, and I am fascinated by this story. 27 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: So I guess I wanted to know how you first 28 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 3: started looking into this, What first popped onto your radar 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 3: that made you go, oh, this is something worth looking into. 30 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: Well, I got tipped off by foundation who told me 31 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: that there was this drilling going on around the Okabango Delta, 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: which is a in ESCO World ariatage site, you know, 33 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: and they were interested in life conservation and things, and 34 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: like you and many journalists, we get pitched stuff all 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: the time. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it 36 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: sounds great, but you know, I got lots to do, right, 37 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: and so I kind of didn't think about it. And 38 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: then then I was just sort of googling around one 39 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: day and thinking more about it, and let's started to 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: look into it a little bit and it became really 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: interesting to me very quickly. Because this company called Recon Africa, 42 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: which was based in Vancouver. They were kind of, you know, 43 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: a small kind of or oil and gas exploration company, 44 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: and there was some really good reporting that had been 45 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: done by National Geographic that suggested that, you know, maybe 46 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: this was not all up and up, and maybe there 47 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: was some other game being played here besides straightforward oil 48 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: and gas drilling and exploration. And it just piqued my interest, 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: and the more I looked into it, the more complex 50 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: and fascinating it became. I pitched my editors and said, yes, 51 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: let's go go have a look. And that's what I did. 52 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I don't want to spoil the story 53 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 3: for people, because I want them to go and read it, 54 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 3: but to the extent that you can share a little 55 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 3: bit about what you found without without ruining the story 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 3: for people. Yeah, can you walk us through what you 57 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 3: found when when you got on the ground in Maybia? 58 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think you know. The first thing I should 59 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: say is, right before I left, I I called this 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: Harvard geologist named Paul Hoffman, who is a very, very 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: very one of the most sort of famous geologists in 62 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: the world as far as geologists are famous, who who 63 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: is most known for kind of this idea of snowball Earth, 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: this idea that at several points in earth distant past 65 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: it was more less covered with ice in it. It's 66 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: very controversial theory, but he he is the one who 67 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: kind of proved it, and he proved it by studying 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: the rocks in Namibia for about forty years. And he 69 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: knows the rocks in Namibia the way you know most 70 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: people know their children's faces or something. And I called 71 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: him and he basically said, I explained the story to 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: him and I was interested in drilling. Did he have 73 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: any advice for me about traveling in Nmidia and this 74 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: and that? And he said, you know, there's no oil 75 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: there And I said, well, what do you mean? And 76 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: he said, whatever they're saying. I know this place and 77 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: there's basically no oil there. And I was like, well, 78 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: then what are they doing? And he said, well, you know, 79 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: one thing you're going to learn is that a lot 80 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: of oil and gas company or companies are better at 81 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: drilling into their investor's wallets than they are into the 82 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: rocks in the ground. 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 84 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: And with that, I got on a plane and went 85 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: to Namibia. And so my time there was about trying 86 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: to understand what was going on on if there was 87 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: no oil there then what were they doing? And if 88 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: there was oil, there was this guy, Paul Hoffman, this 89 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: man who understands maybe better than anyone. Was he completely wrong? 90 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: And was that a remarkable kind of discovery? They were 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 2: recon Africa was claiming there was one hundred and twenty 92 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: billion barrels of oil that had been produced in this 93 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: basin that they that they had so called discovered. And 94 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: as you know, one hundred and twenty billion is a 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: pretty big number. And so that got all their investors 96 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 2: in a tizzy. 97 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean that's that would make it, you know, 98 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 3: bigger than almost any other oil field on Earth. Just 99 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 3: to put it in context for people like they're like, hey, 100 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: we discovered the new Saudi Arabia and no one else 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 3: knew in existed full time. 102 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: Yes, So the first thing I did when I got 103 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: there is, you know, one of the things that makes 104 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: this story different than a lot of other stories is 105 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: where the they this company, recon Africa, at least about 106 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: nine million acres of land in Botswana and Namibia, and 107 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: a lot of it is very close to the ok 108 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: of Ago Delto, which is this UNESCO World Character Site, 109 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: which is a kind of pristine ecosystem that is you know, 110 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: renowned for the number of elephants that live and migrated 111 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: through there, for its wildlife population of lions and you know, 112 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 2: all the sort of big mammals that people pay a 113 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: lot of money to go on Sofari to see. But 114 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: it's also just this, you know, this kind of miraculous place, 115 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: this delta where the water runs down out of the 116 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: highlands of Angola and creates this unique ecosystem that is 117 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 2: very that is basically unpolluted and untouched, and then that 118 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: water disappears into the Kalahari desert and just sort of vanishes, 119 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: and it's this is amazing place. So the first thing 120 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: I did was go see this amazing place, which I'd 121 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: never been to before. And sure enough, it was, you know, 122 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: astonishing in its diversity of wildlife and in its sort 123 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: of sublime beauty. And the notion that all this was 124 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: going to get you know, screwed up and polluted because 125 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: of these you know, wildcat explorers who were drilling upstream 126 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: of this was you know, pretty shocking in the sense 127 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: of like, what the hell are we doing? You know, 128 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: what is going on here? So it wasn't just the 129 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: climate aspects of it. It was also just this incredible 130 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: wonderland of wildlife that was at risk. 131 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: Right, And I think, like I think that there's a 132 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 3: tendency for people to think, oh, well, if they're drilling 133 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: but there's not really any oil, then like no harm, 134 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: no foul, Right, But that's very much not true. So 135 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 3: can you kind of talk through, you know, what impact 136 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: does the drilling have frerespective of whether there is actually 137 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: this large amount of oil to be tapped there, right. 138 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, if if there were one hundred and 139 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: twenty billion barrels of oil there, it would turn into 140 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: you know, you know, it would there would be drilling everywhere, 141 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: and it would turn into you know, a kind of 142 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: environmental nightmare. But you're right, a lot of people think, oh, 143 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: so what's the harm. They were exploring for oil, but 144 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: no big deal. They didn't they didn't find it, and 145 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 2: so who cares? Well, it matters a lot because an 146 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: ecosystem like the Oka Bango delta is very fragile and 147 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: it's all built around this sort of flow of water. 148 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 2: And as even drilling these four or five wells that 149 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: they have drilled, they're you know, they're using drilling MUDs 150 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: that have god knows what kind of chemicals in them. 151 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: They're pumping up water from below that has all kinds 152 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: of chemicals in it that are not mixed in the 153 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: surface waters. They're cutting roads through these pristine areas, changing 154 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: wildlife migration patterns, you know. And then there's the whole 155 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: sort of economy of drillers and kind of get rich 156 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: quick people who you know, invade this area trying to 157 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: exploit this, and so it's like, you know, even this 158 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: level of modest exploration in a pristine place like that 159 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: has profound implications. 160 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Can you talk a little bit more about 161 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: this company that is exploring in in Nibia because I 162 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 3: found that really interesting too. Again, I think like a 163 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: lot of people think, oh, it's just the oil nators 164 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: doing this, but this is a pretty small, pretty new 165 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 3: company that has kind of pulled off something that's that's 166 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: sort of shocking. I would say, you know that they 167 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: that they've managed to convince so many people to believe 168 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: in this projection. Like it's one thing, if you know, 169 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: axel On or Shell says there's one hundred and twenty 170 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 3: billion barrels of oil somewhere, but this is not one 171 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: of those companies no, it's not. 172 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: It's basically, you know, a handful of Vancouver mining financiers 173 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: headed by this guy named Craig Steink, who is a 174 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: Canadian and you know, he and some of the other 175 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: people guys, they are all guys, and they're all like, 176 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: you know, middle aged white guys. Basically you know, made 177 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: a little bit of money in cracking the premium basin 178 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 2: and in parts of Canada and have basically spent the 179 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: last ten years trying to kind of export fracking around 180 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: the world basically, and you know, they fracking as a 181 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: you know, North American invention that was sort of you 182 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: know exploited here, and these guys figure out, oh, well, 183 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: we can do that in other places. So they've trotted 184 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: around to Mexico and France and Poland and other places 185 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 2: trying to frack in basins there and they've been basically 186 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: shut down in all those places or else the gas 187 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: fields turned out to be dry or the gas too 188 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: difficult to get for whatever reasons. But they've perfected this 189 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: idea of you know, hyping up the possibility of these 190 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: discoveries and then selling you know, creating a corporation that 191 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 2: they then put on the Vancouver Stock Exchange or some 192 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: other small exchanges and hype up investors in retail investors 193 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 2: on who are on boards like on Reddit in places 194 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: like that, and they get a lot of money invested 195 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: in this by hyping up the possibility of you know, 196 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: an enormous find in this case in Namibia and Botswana. 197 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: So it really is just I mean, really it's a 198 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: handful of people. When I was in Namibia, I went 199 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: to the company headquarters. You know, it's like, okay, so 200 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: Recount Africa has got this operation that I'm reporting about, 201 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: this drilling, high profile drilling operation. I figured they would 202 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: have a building, a like an office, you know, there 203 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: would be some kind of establishment, And it was basically 204 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: this like rented little office at the end of this 205 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: empty hallway where one I was sitting in a chair 206 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: with like office depot kind of steel furniture. Who was 207 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 2: in charge of their operations there? And I went in 208 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: and you know, said hello and told him who I was, 209 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: and I was from Rolling Stone and and you know, 210 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: I'd like to go look at the drill sites. And 211 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: he was at first really friendly to me. It was 212 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: really sweet, and like he's like, oh great, welcome to 213 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: the maybe and all that, and then he said, okay, 214 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: we'll arrange this. Let me let me call me back 215 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: in a couple of a couple of hours and we'll 216 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 2: set it up. And I left and called him a 217 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: couple of hours and he was immediately very gruff and like, no, 218 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: we're not you know, no, no drill visits. Sorry, we're 219 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: not cooperating and hung up the phone on me. He'd 220 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: obviously checked in with somebody and like, you know, we're 221 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: not letting any reporters anywhere near this. But that's the 222 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: kind of operation it is. It's not a you know, 223 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: it's not a big company. It's like four guys, you know, 224 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: who have corralled a bunch of investors, have some money, 225 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: bought a drilling rig and are punching holes in Namibia. 226 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: Its wild. It's just it's wild that that's like a 227 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 3: thing that you can do. 228 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: And make a lot of money at it. 229 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I make a lot of money at it, even 230 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 3: if there's nothing coming out of those wells. Have they 231 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: what's kind of the status of this project right now? 232 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: Well, they've you know, they've drilled three or four exploratory wells. 233 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: They haven't really they claim to have found what they 234 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: call a working petroleum system. But all of the patrolling 235 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: engineers I've talked to who've looked at their data say 236 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: it's not a working petroleum system. Their stock price is 237 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: you know, under a dollar and has been under a 238 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: dollar for a long time. You know, it was up 239 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: around seven or eight, I think even nine dollars for 240 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 2: a while a year ago, which was when all the 241 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: insiders cashed out. You know, this company was worth at 242 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 2: a certain point something like a market cap of like 243 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: two billion dollars, even though you know they'd never found 244 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: any oil and their office was nothing more than a 245 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: you know, steel chair in a in a lonely little 246 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: building in Hindu, Namibia. You know, I don't know where 247 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: it's going to go. They look like they have enough 248 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: operating cash to get to go through another quarter or two. 249 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: But a lot of the main investors have already moved 250 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: on to other companies, and even the key player, Craig Stankey, 251 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: who is the sort of man behind this, he's moved on. 252 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: He's involved in some other companies. So I basically think 253 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: they're going to fade away. I think that, you know, 254 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: they're just going to vanish in this sort of petroleum haze. 255 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: I think that after several years of promising and promising 256 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: and promising, I think even there, you know, cult like 257 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: investors are losing patients with them, and you know, they've 258 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: been talking about it, you know, a joint venture somebody 259 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: one of the big oil majors coming in and you know, 260 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: buying them out or buying out a portion of their operation, 261 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: and which would certainly happen if if there was one 262 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty billion barrels of oil, sure, yeah they 263 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: would have. It would be a pretty good shape. But 264 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: the fact that nobody has after all this time, it's 265 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: pretty good evidence that even insiders don't believe what they're selling. 266 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 267 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, do you is there any sense that they have 268 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 4: been able to for some period of time at least 269 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 4: kind of use the discoveries of oil in the southern 270 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 4: part of Namibia where it shares a border with South Africa. 271 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, do you think that they've been they've been kind 272 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 3: of using that to you know, convince people that oh, yeah, 273 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: there's a lown gas up here too, Oh. 274 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 2: Totally, well, yeah, they're totally using that. And then also, 275 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: you know, shell has been made a couple there's been 276 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: a couple of big offshore discoveries in Namibia also, you 277 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: know the maybea for a long time, I thought they 278 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: had no oil, there's no gas. They were not they 279 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: you know, Angola to the north, you know, as lots, 280 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: and they just thought this was you know, something that 281 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: you know, was not available to them to develop. And 282 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: then a couple of these big a couple of these 283 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 2: big offshore discoveries came on which do seem real, and 284 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: then the some other discoveries in the southern part of 285 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: the country. But you know, Africa, as you know, is 286 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 2: at this sort of turning point right of are they 287 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: going to develop in this old like you know, nineteenth 288 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 2: century you know, resource curse kind of development path or 289 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 2: are they going to move in a new direction. And 290 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: I think Namibia is like really at the kind of 291 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: full crum of that decision. 292 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to talk to you more about that 293 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 3: because I feel like Namibia is in this really interesting place. 294 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 3: It does. It reminds me a lot of Diana, which 295 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 3: we've been looking at a lot the last year or so. 296 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 3: In that Namibia also kind of has this you know, 297 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 3: reputation as like a real leader in conservation and doing 298 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 3: so much around wildlife preservation and all of these things, 299 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 3: and now they're at the precipice of maybe becoming a 300 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: big oil and gas producer. And I'm curious about what 301 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 3: you found in terms of what I don't know, what 302 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: people think about it there, how the government is reacting, 303 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 3: how people on the ground think about it. I had 304 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 3: someone I talked to someone just the other day who said, 305 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 3: you know, for a long time, folks in global soft 306 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 3: countries thought about climate change as global North problem, a 307 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 3: problem that was created by the global North and should 308 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 3: be solved by it, which is not necessarily untrue, but 309 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: unfortunately everybody is going to be impacted by it too, 310 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 3: right in these countries, you know, more than most. So Yeah, 311 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 3: I'm just curious what you saw in terms of people 312 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: kind of grappling with all of those things at once. 313 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it's a really 314 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: really important question, and I think probably maybe one of 315 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: the most sort of important kind of questions in the 316 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: whole energy climate debate that's happening in the world right now, 317 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: and it's at the center of the loss and damage 318 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 2: conversations that are happening, you know, with the IPCC and 319 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: this question of what does the global North, owe the 320 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: global South, and because you know, obviously we, the global North, 321 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: have created this problem of climate change. We're the ones 322 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 2: who have spent you know, one hundred years dumping ZO 323 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: two into the atmosphere. And as you chronicle better than 324 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: any buddy with oil majors like exce On Mobile knowing 325 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 2: what they were doing, and you know, there's no question 326 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: about who's responsible for this, right right, And you know 327 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: when you travel in when I traveled in Namibia in Botswana, 328 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, energy poverty is very real. I mean, 329 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: you know it's really important in countries in Namibia, in 330 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: Botswana for more people to get access to energy for 331 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: all kinds of very obvious reasons. And you know, there's 332 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: a legitimate argument to be made that. Look, you know 333 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: that I even in a meeting with the Maybe is 334 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 2: Drilling the head of their sort of drilling operations oversight 335 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: agency said to me basically is, look, you guys, you 336 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: meing America have look what you've done. You know, you 337 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: drilled everything, and you know, look what's going on now. 338 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: We just okay drilling in the World Willow Project in Alaska. 339 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 2: Look at what we're doing in the Gulf. I mean 340 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 2: like you have no right to tell us like not 341 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: to drill. You know, you have no moral standing. 342 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: Here, right like new stop first, you know vibe. Yeah, yeah, that's. 343 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: Really and that's really true. I mean it's really true. 344 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: I mean there's we we do have no moral standing 345 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: to come in there and say, you know, shame on you. However, 346 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: what's very powerful that's happening there and what I encountered 347 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 2: on the ground was a lot of you know, African activists, 348 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 2: African sort of you know, new energy thinkers who are saying, 349 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 2: look forget like what you know people in the US 350 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: want us to do or care. It's like for our 351 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 2: own good, you know, we need to go on a 352 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: different path because the future is not oil and gas. 353 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: These things are going to turn out to be stranded assets. 354 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 2: They're going to screw up our country. They're gonna pullue, 355 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,479 Speaker 2: they're gonna do all the things that we can see 356 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 2: has happened to the US and to other countries who 357 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 2: have gone down the path of fossil fuel development. Were 358 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: smarter than that. The advantages is to go on this 359 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 2: new and different path. And Namibia is a great example 360 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 2: because Namibia's solar resource, for example, is just phenomenal. I mean, 361 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: it's better than California or Nevad. I mean it's really 362 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 2: they have the real gold mine or the real one 363 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty billion barrels of oil in Namibia is 364 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 2: not in the ground. It's in the sun, and the 365 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: possibilities of that are huge. And they're also doing things 366 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 2: very innovative things like green hydrogen development that they have 367 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: a big project going on that is I think it's 368 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: nine billion dollars or something of investment that is very 369 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: progressive and you know a kind of step towards this 370 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,479 Speaker 2: sort of new energy economy also, so they're at this 371 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: sort of you know, full crumb of this of this change. 372 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: But one of the things that econ Africa story shows is, 373 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: you know, is the ability of the oil and gas 374 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 2: industry world players to you know, access political officials, to 375 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 2: to get Okays to do things. They know how to 376 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: pull the levers and you know, they know how to 377 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: you know, pay off the right people and you know, 378 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: get the development going even in ways that you know, 379 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: even if it's not the sort of smartest path or 380 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: the most democratic path or the one that most people 381 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: in the country want, they know how to get it done, 382 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 2: which is the same story as you saw in Guyana 383 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: and we see in America. 384 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 385 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, and then you know there's this this dual 386 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 3: problem which you pointed to before of like it's not 387 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 3: just the long term potential impacts around climate, but also 388 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 3: the near term impacts of you know, air and water 389 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: pollution and the potential for oil spills and all that 390 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 3: kind of thing too. Did you get like, did you 391 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 3: get a sense of how well or not the Namibian 392 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 3: government is positioned to actually like regulate an oil and 393 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: gas industry. No. 394 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 2: I mean my sense is that you know, they they 395 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: are you know, children in a sandbox in dealing with 396 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: these you know, big experienced oil and gas players, even 397 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 2: like recon Africa. I mean recon Africa is you know, 398 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 2: in the classic way kind of trying to exploit this 399 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: in a way. And they're talking about how you know, 400 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 2: they are. They talk about how they're drilling mud and 401 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 2: their drilling fluids are one hundred percent organic, right as 402 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: if it's like Gwyneth Paltrow developing. You know, it's like 403 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: it's hilarious, you. 404 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 3: Know, wow, drilling mud or a mask. Oh wow, that's 405 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 3: really interesting. Is there a sense like in Guyana, there's 406 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 3: very much this idea of like, oh, well, you know, 407 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 3: oil and gas is going to make this rich and 408 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 3: you know, solve all of our development financing problems, and 409 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 3: in a very big way. It actually gets talked about 410 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 3: all the time there. It like that oil money is 411 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 3: going to pay for climate adaptation, which is such a 412 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 3: like really clear example of you know what happens when 413 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 3: the global north does not step up and do you 414 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 3: know what it should on climate. It's like, okay, now 415 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 3: we've kind of abandoned these countries to rely on oil 416 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: companies to pay for climate adaptation, and the trade off 417 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 3: is you know, more drilling and all of that. So anyway, 418 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: I don't know, like is that something that you saw 419 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 3: in Namibia as well, where like well this might be 420 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 3: a problem, but it'll bring in money and we need 421 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 3: that money to deal with all of these other things. 422 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that's clearly a big part of the 423 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: sort of pitch that a company like riek On Africa makes. 424 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 2: So though in this case they don't really talk that 425 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: much at least that I saw about climate related adaptation 426 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: and money. It's more just like you know, economic development. 427 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: You know, it's like we're going to bring jobs to 428 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: these poor people. We're going to you know, provide clean 429 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: drinking water. You know, we are a you know, experienced professionals. 430 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: We do this right. We're not a fly by night organization. 431 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: You know, we care about Namibia. Blah blah blah. You know, 432 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 2: they're very good at you know, pitching this as the 433 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: path for economic prosperity and growth. Right. And then you 434 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 2: go there and you walk around and you talk to 435 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 2: people in the villages and things around there, and yes, 436 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: they drilled a couple of drinking wells that cost them 437 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: two or three thousand dollars and that has helped a 438 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 2: couple of you know, the villages. And I visited some 439 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: of these wells and people were happy that they were there. 440 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 2: But it's like you know, buying the local soccer team 441 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: new shirts or something. I mean, it's like, you know it. 442 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: They know how to do build up this kind of 443 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: good will at a very cheap cost. And you ask 444 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: them about you know, when I asked people about you know, 445 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: employment and jobs, and you know, they would hire someone 446 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: to like hold a flag on a dirt road for 447 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: a day or two and pay them less than a 448 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: dollar or something. And then that would be the end 449 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: of it. And you know, clearly all this drilling stuff 450 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: is you know, everything there was Haliburton. I mean this 451 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 2: is all imported stuff, imported engineers. The actual you know, 452 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: job possibilities for local people there are very very small. 453 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 2: You know, the oil contracts, most of the money is 454 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: you know, going out of the country. The money that's 455 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: not going into the hands of sort of corrupt officials 456 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: got the country. You know, this is it's it's a 457 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 2: very transparent game that anybody like you who has looked 458 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: at this for a long time knows exactly how it's played. 459 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: And they're really experts at it, and they're really good 460 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: at it, and you know, they have that playbook down. 461 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. What about sort of civil society groups in Namibia, 462 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 3: so you know, like nonprofits and foundations, but also journalism, 463 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: you know, government watchdog groups things like that. Are any 464 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: of those folks kind of starting to to look at 465 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: this stuff more critically? 466 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're first of all, they has some 467 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: really good journalism. They have the paper. Then Namibian has 468 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: done some really good coverage of ricon Africa and of 469 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 2: the problems with withdrilling in these fragile areas. So they 470 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 2: do have that they they are building. There is a 471 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: growing you know, activists, community Fridays for the Future, other 472 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: organizations like that have a real presence. One of the 473 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: things that you know, really caught my eye and in 474 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 2: first beginning to explore this story and deciding to actually 475 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: go there and write about it, was seeing some video 476 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: of some of the sort of community meetings where local 477 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 2: activists were challenging kind of some of Ricon's officials who 478 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: would come in and you know, describe this these drilling 479 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: projects to them, and the local activists really kind of 480 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: got up in arms about it and really challenged them. 481 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, wow, this is really interesting. There's a 482 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 2: lot of pushback here. 483 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 3: That's really interesting is the like is the is the government? Yeah, like, 484 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 3: how is the government sort of supportive of that or 485 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 3: not or you know, more on the side of the 486 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 3: oil companies or sort of neutral. What's what's the like 487 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 3: relationship like there? 488 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's it's complex, you know. The 489 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: the Namibian mining minister who I a guy named tom 490 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: al Window who had a kind of community meeting in 491 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: Ruindu maybe, which is the sort of largest town near 492 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: the drilling sites. I was there when he had this 493 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: community meeting and I attended it, and and you know, 494 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 2: he's very smart guy, very sophisticated, uh you know, but 495 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: very clearly like if there's oil here, we're going to 496 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: develop it. This is our rights. 497 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: You know, we have. 498 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: A right to develop our resources. You know, we want 499 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: to do this and we want and you know, we 500 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: want to do this right. So they're they're kind of 501 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: progressive in that sense, you know, this is there they 502 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 2: The question is is will that would that actually happen? 503 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: What would doing it right mean in a place like that? 504 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: And you know it's like can you drill in you know, 505 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: for oil and gas the right way in Usemite Valley? 506 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: I mean no, I mean you can't. Right, there's if 507 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: you're going to drill for oil and gas and Musemite Valley, 508 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't there's no right or wrong way. It's a 509 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: disaster any way you look at it. Right. And so 510 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: the same kind of thing with the Okamango Delta. It's 511 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 2: like there's no right or wrong way to drill here. 512 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: You just this should this should not this should not 513 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: be happening, right. I mean if you value this, this 514 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: ecosystem and this this planet, the way that a lot 515 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 2: of people do so, so I think that, you know, 516 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 2: what's interesting in this story is that, you know, by 517 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 2: choosing to drill in this we're very close to this 518 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 2: fragile area. They they really kind of kicked off a 519 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: kind of attention and got people like me and activists 520 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 2: and others to say, hey, what the hell are you doing? 521 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: What is going on here? That I think they regret 522 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: because I think that they would like this to have 523 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 2: just gone through in a much quieter way. And there 524 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: certainly is other drilling and exploration going on in Namibia 525 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: that I'm not writing about, and you've probably never heard of, 526 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: and I've probably never heard of, and you know that 527 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: is going on quietly under the radar. But these guys 528 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: were bold and stupid, and they just arrogant and just thought, oh, 529 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: what the hell, We're gonna drill right next to the 530 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: Okamango Delta and lo and behold. People don't like that, 531 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: including a lot of Namibians who are you know, we're 532 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: marching in the streets and holding up flags. But we 533 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: know what's really interesting too, is that you really feel, 534 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: or I really felt when I was there, compared to 535 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: covering a similar kind of you know, meetings and activism 536 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: in the US is fear. There's a real fear there 537 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 2: of what the oil companies could do to them. There's 538 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: a lot of I talked to a number of activists 539 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: who said, you know, I'm talking to you, but you know, 540 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: if I disappear next week, you know you need to know, 541 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: you know who did this or who who is where 542 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: to look first kind of thing, right, And so you 543 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 2: really feel the kind of courage of speaking out there 544 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: in a way that you know, I don't really feel 545 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: when I cover similar kinds of events here in the 546 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: US or in Western Europe or something. 547 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, awesome, Well, I really appreciate you 548 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 3: talking to me about it. More. It's a great story. 549 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 3: We will link to it in the show notes and 550 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 3: send everybody over to read it, and definitely we'll be 551 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: following to see what becomes of recon Africa. 552 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I think they're They're like a little 553 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: soap bubble that's gonna like pop, you know, right really 554 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 2: soon here. I don't think they're going to be around 555 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: for long, but you know, who knows, who knows? 556 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, awesome, Well, thanks Jeff, I appreciate it, And yeah, 557 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 3: looking forward to seeing whatever you do next. 558 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: Thank you Amy. 559 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Next week we are back 560 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: in Diana for the final episode of this season. Don't 561 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: miss it. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.