Speaker 1: I'm Jen Salada and I was a writer on the Office.
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, Welcome, one and all to the latest and
Speaker 1: for this week greatest installment of the Office Deep Dive.
Speaker 1: I am your host Brian Baumgartner. Today you will be
Speaker 1: experiencing my conversation with Jen Salada. Now. Jen joined our
Speaker 1: show as a writer in season two. And if you
Speaker 1: listen to my conversation with Mike, sure you know that
Speaker 1: Mike describes Jen as the beating heart of the show.
Speaker 1: I had never thought of it that way, but I
Speaker 1: realized after he said it that that is so true
Speaker 1: and and you can totally see Jen's influence on the show.
Speaker 1: Starting in that second season, Jen wrote some of the
Speaker 1: most complex, subtle psychological storylines that we ever had, and
Speaker 1: it was so fun for me to talk about that
Speaker 1: with her. Um. Jen is also crazy smart and absolutely hilarious,
Speaker 1: and she has the most infectious laugh, which you will
Speaker 1: hear lots of momentarily. Um. But most importantly, she was
Speaker 1: the only guest who brought me cookies when she came
Speaker 1: in to talk. That's right, she she brought me cookies.
Speaker 1: So that officially makes Jen my favorite guest of all time.
Speaker 1: So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my friend and soon
Speaker 1: to be yours, Jen Salata, Bubble and squeak I love it,
Speaker 1: Bubble and squeak on Bubble and squeaker Cookie every mon
Speaker 1: lift over from the naty. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, good
Speaker 1: to see you look the same. I saw you look awesome.
Speaker 1: The thing with dudes is they get you get to
Speaker 1: look better when you get older girls. True, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a problem. It's like some distinguished silver fox gray
Speaker 1: that happens like girls. Don't you know? Why? Why can't
Speaker 1: Why can't girls have that? I don't know. I'll try
Speaker 1: it out. It's just a little just a little side gray.
Speaker 1: Look you look, God, you do truth speak truth God.
Speaker 1: Why don't we hang home before? And I think it
Speaker 1: every time we hang out? That should be microphones, We shouldn't.
Speaker 1: We should always accord everything and no laws, just big
Speaker 1: just big Mike's Um. I just spent some time with
Speaker 1: Ed Helms, so cool. Yeah, ran out of here to
Speaker 1: make sure he didn't see you. Seriously, what is all about?
Speaker 1: You know what's amazing? I was going to maybe tell
Speaker 1: a sort of embarrassing story that doesn't make him look bad,
Speaker 1: that makes me totally embarrass about it. I never told
Speaker 1: on anything. Okay, go, it's totally embarrassing though you're ready, Yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is embarrassing. Why am I starting with this? But
Speaker 1: you just mentioned his name is so funny. So um,
Speaker 1: I can't remember what season this was, but you'll know
Speaker 1: from what I'm talking about. Uh. I had an idea
Speaker 1: where Ed was going to sing take a chance on me,
Speaker 1: and um, I remember I told Greg that idea and
Speaker 1: he's like, go down and tell Ed, you know, talk
Speaker 1: to him about it, you know, about the song because
Speaker 1: he'll be singing it soon. And I just remember, like,
Speaker 1: being a fan of Eds from The Daily Show, it
Speaker 1: was an attractive, interesting, cool dorky, you know, banjo playing dude.
Speaker 1: So like there was a part of me that was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a cool dude. And I guess I got
Speaker 1: a little kind of nervous about you know, like I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just a tiny bit nervous roun him
Speaker 1: at first, you know, professional, but just like a little
Speaker 1: bit nervous. So I go over and I knock on
Speaker 1: his trailer door because I have to ask him, you know,
Speaker 1: do you know this song? And let's talk about this
Speaker 1: song or whatever. I'm assuming he knows that he knows music.
Speaker 1: He's Mr Music right knock on his door. He's like, hey, Jen.
Speaker 1: I was like, Hi, So I had this idea for
Speaker 1: an episode coming up soon, probably next week. I don't
Speaker 1: remember this, remembering exactly what, and and I said, it's
Speaker 1: take a chance on me. And I said, you know
Speaker 1: that song? He's like what. I was like, you know
Speaker 1: that song? He did not know the song. So I
Speaker 1: had to sing, take a chance on me, do it.
Speaker 1: I'm the parking lot of the office, and I can't sing. Also,
Speaker 1: I can't sing, and I'm singing to a singer. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he was lovely. It was all fine, but it was
Speaker 1: one of the dorky moments of my life. That's so funny.
Speaker 1: I never told him that because it was just awkward,
Speaker 1: because I wouldn't want to be like, I'm nervous around you.
Speaker 1: But now I'll tell the world. There it is. I
Speaker 1: will make sure he hears that story. Um, all right,
Speaker 1: So you so pre you You came to the office
Speaker 1: in season two, which basically was when Lee and Gen
Speaker 1: joined too. You were the new kids. How was that,
Speaker 1: by the way, coming into that room? It was it
Speaker 1: was great. It was intimidating. I had been on a
Speaker 1: bunch of other writing staffs I've been writing for a while,
Speaker 1: but this I was a huge fan of the show.
Speaker 1: I was a huge fan of The British Office, and
Speaker 1: then I was on Malcolm the Middle and watching The
Speaker 1: American Office, and I'd watched The Office when it aired.
Speaker 1: In the next morning, all I talked about at work
Speaker 1: was The Office. It was delightful for the well I
Speaker 1: was trying to write Malcolm um and uh. So I
Speaker 1: was just very intimidated at first, but excited. I felt
Speaker 1: like there were a lot of shows that I worked
Speaker 1: on that um, there were a few shows that were
Speaker 1: my sensibility. I got to work on Andy Richter Controls
Speaker 1: the Universe, and got to work on some other, you know, interesting,
Speaker 1: cool shows. But this show was the first show where
Speaker 1: I was like, oh God, like the humor and the
Speaker 1: heart everything about it I just felt like so connected
Speaker 1: to and also just kind of dryer, subtle humor, dry humor,
Speaker 1: subtle humor. There were so many things that were appealing
Speaker 1: to me about it. So I both was incredibly excited
Speaker 1: and also like, don't funk this up. Um, so let
Speaker 1: me rewind a little bit. So you you're on Malcolm
Speaker 1: in the Middle, and then what happens you You get
Speaker 1: a meeting with get a meeting with Greg. I was
Speaker 1: on a development deal actually also with NBC. So I
Speaker 1: left Malcolm in the Middle. Um, full disclosure. Did not
Speaker 1: get asked back to Malcolm Middle that will come back.
Speaker 1: Maybe because I just talked about the office all the time.
Speaker 1: They were like what the hell? But um, yeah, so
Speaker 1: I left. I had a meeting with Greg. I met
Speaker 1: him at a coffee bean somewhere, just desperately wanted to
Speaker 1: be on the show. Had a fantastic meeting, loved him instantly.
Speaker 1: Had There was a very pregnant pause in my interview
Speaker 1: with him of just it felt like it was like
Speaker 1: five minutes long, but I'm not quite sure. It was
Speaker 1: just him sort of kind of putting his hand on
Speaker 1: his forehead and looking down and I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if this is I have no idea which way
Speaker 1: this is going, because like I think it was going well,
Speaker 1: but I don't really know. And there's a long pause,
Speaker 1: and then he was like, hey, do you want to
Speaker 1: you want to join the staff. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of it probably to Gregg's later Dismay is that when
Speaker 1: he was silent for a little while, just trying to
Speaker 1: process or think about things or who knows what, I
Speaker 1: didn't speak, then surprise, surprise, I wouldn't shut up once
Speaker 1: you hired, right, And I can tell you a funny
Speaker 1: story about that as well. I yeah, no, So I
Speaker 1: I felt so aligned with the office before, just even
Speaker 1: as a fan, and I noted we made some there
Speaker 1: were some changes, and we did some tweaking the things
Speaker 1: going into season two, which made it even more maybe
Speaker 1: in my wheelhouse of kind of heart and you know,
Speaker 1: rooting for Krall and kind of finding the underbelly of
Speaker 1: his character and stuff like that. But season one, I
Speaker 1: was just a huge fan. So right, so waits well,
Speaker 1: so many things. First of all, so what I've been
Speaker 1: told was that Greg, in consultation with the network and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, he needed to soften Steve first season two,
Speaker 1: that Kevin Riley was very happy with what had happened,
Speaker 1: but that people watching it was actually something that you
Speaker 1: want in television, and so he Greg came in. It
Speaker 1: will be interesting to hear your perspective on this, because
Speaker 1: you weren't a writer before, but that Greg was the
Speaker 1: one who pushed for Steve being softened, and that there
Speaker 1: was everyone else who was in the room, and a
Speaker 1: writer at the time felt like, no, you're going to
Speaker 1: kill the show. Oh that's fascinating. I could. I do
Speaker 1: have thoughts on it, even though I wasn't there, um,
Speaker 1: because I think that depending on how you interpret soften,
Speaker 1: it could sound like something that could be very threatening
Speaker 1: to the show. And it could for me because I
Speaker 1: know what it ended up being. I'll explain why. I
Speaker 1: think it was a great decision. But I remember we
Speaker 1: were early on in season two talking about how do
Speaker 1: we do this, and a lot of people had great ideas.
Speaker 1: I just remember specifically, Um, I had talked to my dad,
Speaker 1: who's a physicist. To come from a very kind of
Speaker 1: nerdy door them family a physicist and the psychologist and
Speaker 1: the mechanical engineers, my brother and my dad was in
Speaker 1: UH had to high level position where he ended up
Speaker 1: having to fire people. And I remember him telling me
Speaker 1: about firing people from the point of view of a boss,
Speaker 1: that it's like you always are thinking about the person
Speaker 1: who gets fired, because that's the person you're sympathizing with. Right,
Speaker 1: of course, you're going to tell a story you would
Speaker 1: sympathize with the person who's being fired. I remember my
Speaker 1: dad's saying, it's very kind of lonely, weird thing, you know,
Speaker 1: and you're having to make a decision that's affecting another
Speaker 1: person and it's really difficult. And sort of the extension
Speaker 1: of that with having Michael Scott, who just like you,
Speaker 1: guys are his family and if you have to get
Speaker 1: rid of one of you, it's devastating. It was just
Speaker 1: sort of an interesting way to see things that affect him,
Speaker 1: but to understand and feel for him, do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? I think I think it's the feeling
Speaker 1: for him and seeing the underbelling and seeing the why
Speaker 1: of what he's doing, as opposed to what I think
Speaker 1: was a very common network note often which is makes
Speaker 1: someone more likable. And I think that if you take
Speaker 1: that for what it sounds like, just make somebody more likable,
Speaker 1: it feels like you're taking all the character and everything
Speaker 1: away and you're just softing them into this benign mush
Speaker 1: of human which would like imagine Correll having to play
Speaker 1: somebody just you know, that couldn't have any edges, that
Speaker 1: couldn't do outrageously ridiculously bad things. Right, well, and I
Speaker 1: think we're What Greg ultimately said was that for the episode,
Speaker 1: it would play the same way that he could still
Speaker 1: do this behavior. He could still be an idiot, he
Speaker 1: could still be insensitive, but then just find just a moment,
Speaker 1: tiny moment at the end that where you see this
Speaker 1: other side of him and actually you talked about um
Speaker 1: firing someone. And there's the Halloween episode and again that
Speaker 1: last moment you just see him giving out the candy
Speaker 1: to the kids and just humanizes him in a way
Speaker 1: where you understand like there's a kind of a man
Speaker 1: who's alone and he's given out candy. He's got the
Speaker 1: sweet part of him. Yeah, I agree, I can understand.
Speaker 1: We had more arguments in that room than almost any
Speaker 1: other room I've ever been in, and they were, like
Speaker 1: I always say, it was like a healthy marriage where
Speaker 1: you're supposed to fight. They're supposed to be fighting. It's
Speaker 1: safe and we love each other, but we would fight.
Speaker 1: And I just think it's because we all gave a ship.
Speaker 1: It's like we really really cared. I've been in rooms
Speaker 1: where everybody just sits there and kind of you know, wait,
Speaker 1: still time to go home more, And this was not
Speaker 1: that everybody cared desperately about everything. Yeah, um, do you
Speaker 1: think being a woman and only you and Mendy were
Speaker 1: women at the time, writers, do you feel like, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, how was that for you? You know,
Speaker 1: I always feel like in this I'm supposed to be
Speaker 1: saying more than I do, or I'm reevaluating how I
Speaker 1: felt all the time, But I didn't think about it
Speaker 1: like I just I. I don't know. I'll talk with
Speaker 1: the office specifically in a second. But I've been so
Speaker 1: incredibly fortunate in my career to work worth incredibly evolved men,
Speaker 1: and I feel like, yes, I always wish there were
Speaker 1: more women and more diversity in every staff always, that
Speaker 1: is always something that I wanted and wished for and
Speaker 1: asked for. But I did feel uncomfortable in any way. Um,
Speaker 1: I just felt very blessed and lucky. Again, it's on me.
Speaker 1: It's it's certainly in the later days to try to
Speaker 1: incorporate and bring in other people and make rooms more diverse.
Speaker 1: But um, I didn't have that feeling. And certainly when
Speaker 1: I got there, Mindy was there, and so I felt
Speaker 1: like and there were maybe I don't remember now, six
Speaker 1: of us, seven of us, and you know, so there
Speaker 1: were two women out of seven, and I knew she
Speaker 1: was incredibly talented and just loved working with her. But
Speaker 1: um no, I didn't. I had a didn't continue. I
Speaker 1: feel like it should have occurred to me more than
Speaker 1: it did, and it didn't. So that's how I feel
Speaker 1: a responsibility to other ladies, you know, to just sort
Speaker 1: of go back and you know, think of things. So
Speaker 1: I certainly have had female friends that have had more,
Speaker 1: you know, because I was the only woman on maybe
Speaker 1: three staffs that I've been on. And even in those situations, again, yes,
Speaker 1: I would always like to have the more voices in
Speaker 1: the room and the more diverse the voices are in
Speaker 1: the room. The beat of the show is just is
Speaker 1: so it always should be that way. But on the
Speaker 1: shows when I was coming up there, guys that I
Speaker 1: worked with were fantastic and I didn't I didn't feel uncomfortable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Greg has talked about or this quote was attributed
Speaker 1: to him or something like it. Um, Mike sure said
Speaker 1: that that Greg talked about wanting to create a writer's
Speaker 1: room that was like the X Men, right, so that
Speaker 1: not everybody had a special skill that was the same. So, Um,
Speaker 1: what I have been told is and let's see if
Speaker 1: you agree with that. Lee and Jean Um were very
Speaker 1: good at the cringe comedy, that Mike was more optimistic,
Speaker 1: that Mendy was more absurdist, but also tied into um
Speaker 1: some of the love stuff. Paul was very into Michael's
Speaker 1: worst instincts Um. And then you, I was told one
Speaker 1: you were very into Pam and sort of the beating
Speaker 1: heart of the show. And then Greg wasn't sure about that.
Speaker 1: He said, you were very interested in Michael's stories and
Speaker 1: finding the complexity there. What's funny is that the episode
Speaker 1: that was reference for both of those two things from
Speaker 1: Mike sure and from Greg was the same episode where
Speaker 1: the bird dies. Whereas Greg saw that as being about
Speaker 1: Michael and him having to find a way to deal
Speaker 1: with it, and Mike saw that as about Pam and
Speaker 1: Pam making the decision to facilitate the funeral for Michael.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Interesting that they referenced the same episode
Speaker 1: but came up with two different responses. Do you feel like,
Speaker 1: what was your superpower? What interested you? What's a mate
Speaker 1: that is fast nating? And I can see how they
Speaker 1: both could say that. What's interesting to me is that
Speaker 1: for me, it's understanding the humanity of a person and
Speaker 1: the levels of a person and the psychology of a person.
Speaker 1: To me, it was very much Michael that you know,
Speaker 1: it was not the Pam element um in that I
Speaker 1: love Pam and Michael's connection. I love their relationship, But
Speaker 1: for me, it was steering Michael through that sort of
Speaker 1: the stages of grief. I never got to write internal
Speaker 1: stories where something kind of was happening to the insides
Speaker 1: of a character. And I was like, this is a
Speaker 1: story on a network television show that is an internal
Speaker 1: story where the character that it's happening to is not
Speaker 1: even aware of it. Like I was, like, my brain
Speaker 1: was exploding. So I kind of feel like they're both
Speaker 1: They're both right in a way where it's like but
Speaker 1: with that particular episode was Michael. I had this moment
Speaker 1: with Steve when I was leaving the show and I
Speaker 1: told him, Um, it was very, very difficult decision. Was
Speaker 1: the best job I ever had, by far, but I
Speaker 1: was starting to feel like I wanted to write some
Speaker 1: of my own stuff, and and I told Greg and
Speaker 1: then I told Steve, and you know, I'm sad. I'm
Speaker 1: really upset. I mean it was like the best opportunity
Speaker 1: of my life. And he said, I think this is
Speaker 1: going to be difficult for you. I said, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you know why I could tell something he was saying
Speaker 1: something else, and he said, because I think you work
Speaker 1: out a lot of your own stuff through my character.
Speaker 1: Oh god, Michael Scott thinks I'm Michael Scott. I mean
Speaker 1: he meant it. He didn't mean it as a bad thing,
Speaker 1: but he just even just earnest and genuine in it.
Speaker 1: And like I was like, why can't I be Pam?
Speaker 1: Why can't I be Anu? Why can't it be Phyllis?
Speaker 1: Why can't I'll no, But I mean I endure, I endore.
Speaker 1: Michael said, He's not wrong. There are moments in my life.
Speaker 1: I'm very intrigued with his character. But there are also
Speaker 1: moments in my life where I feel Michael Scotty and
Speaker 1: I think everyone does. But I thought that was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: That is so amazing, and and there's a sweetness to it.
Speaker 1: Because I've told some people that and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: but Michael, you love Michael, and you know he's he's
Speaker 1: connected and he loves But like I immediately went to
Speaker 1: the most ridiculous signs of Michael, Like, there was a
Speaker 1: moment after it where I thought of him, where I
Speaker 1: was trying. I had to type up an email that
Speaker 1: I was gonna have to send as soon as I
Speaker 1: got home. I was, oh, God, this is terrible to stay.
Speaker 1: I was on side. I was at a stoplight and
Speaker 1: I had my computer open, and I was like typing,
Speaker 1: because if you have finished typing it the second I
Speaker 1: got home, I was going to send it. And I
Speaker 1: just imagined like a cop pulling me over with my laptop.
Speaker 1: I mean, the drivers I'm driving and I've got my
Speaker 1: laptop open, and he's like, ma'am you know, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not texting. I'm not texting, I'm emailing. There are
Speaker 1: definitely moments where I'm like, I think, maybe I am.
Speaker 1: But that's so amazing degree on a long journey there
Speaker 1: to that. But uh yeah. But I'm fascinated with what
Speaker 1: makes people tick and the layers underneath people. And I
Speaker 1: feel like writing for me is about connecting. I think
Speaker 1: there's so many things that people think are just themselves,
Speaker 1: and when you see it on screen, you feel like
Speaker 1: kind of comforted forgetting. Maybe that's just me as Michael
Speaker 1: scotten me. You're just comforted that other people are like
Speaker 1: that too. So the stuff inside that you don't get
Speaker 1: to see is what I like to try to bring
Speaker 1: out or show, even if they're not saying it's happening.
Speaker 1: There's something that came up and talking with Greg that
Speaker 1: I did not know. Um, it was very clear Greg
Speaker 1: wanted a collaboration, and he wanted the lines between the
Speaker 1: writers and the actors to be blurred, and he wanted
Speaker 1: it to be much more collaborative. I was aware that
Speaker 1: was happening, and I was aware that it felt very
Speaker 1: different than any other show. But I think for me
Speaker 1: it was always about really about the writers. That it
Speaker 1: was about the writers were acting, and the writers had
Speaker 1: sort of an unfettered access to set. Um. Greg told
Speaker 1: me that his idea was not that his idea was
Speaker 1: to blur the lines between the writers and the actors
Speaker 1: because he felt that in this new genre the laughs
Speaker 1: were about behavior, that there was there was something for
Speaker 1: him that he needed the actors, for the writers to
Speaker 1: see the actors because behavior was way more important in
Speaker 1: this kind of a show than in traditional That's fascinating.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I don't think I ever sort
Speaker 1: of felt it as that was what was happening, like
Speaker 1: kind of what you're saying. But I do think that
Speaker 1: anytime you try to part of me just thinks that
Speaker 1: blurring the lines just makes it a happier environment. Because
Speaker 1: it always felt like the writers were on the shows
Speaker 1: I worked on, the writers were off, and then the
Speaker 1: actors were off, and there was absolutely no crossover, and
Speaker 1: you didn't feel like you were part of a family
Speaker 1: together with each other like they'll be. There are shows
Speaker 1: where I didn't even go down to the set. You know,
Speaker 1: you'd never saw the show. You know, you never saw
Speaker 1: the actors act, And I just think it's always better
Speaker 1: if you kind of mush the two together. I think
Speaker 1: that it's kind of starting to create a character and
Speaker 1: then working with the actor to see what they do
Speaker 1: with it and how they make it. There's that kind
Speaker 1: of thing I feel like, And then when you have
Speaker 1: a specific story about a specific character going down and
Speaker 1: kind of getting to know them enough so that you
Speaker 1: can infuse it so much with the goodness and the
Speaker 1: specificity of you guys is such a big thing. I
Speaker 1: guess I never really thought of it exactly that way
Speaker 1: what he's saying, but I I do think that if
Speaker 1: you think about this show being really needing to be real,
Speaker 1: imagining the worst case of what would have happened if
Speaker 1: if what Greg was saying wasn't true, is that writers
Speaker 1: would be in a room coming up with these weedy
Speaker 1: one liners that were not based at all in what
Speaker 1: a human being would do and the specific human being.
Speaker 1: So that if you go down and to the set
Speaker 1: down whatever we were a couple of minutes stories of
Speaker 1: like and then work with them and and more listen
Speaker 1: to them and see how they would get from point
Speaker 1: A to point B in a realistic way, it'll feel
Speaker 1: more real and more rich. Then if you're just like,
Speaker 1: ha ha, this is a funny joke, you're like the
Speaker 1: worst kind of writing where you're like, here's a funny joke,
Speaker 1: and we'll just give this joke to somebody, you know,
Speaker 1: without really taking into consideration, but packing live. Um, why
Speaker 1: was writing the character so real so important for me?
Speaker 1: Because it was a mockumentary. I've found that a lot
Speaker 1: of the a lot of discussions we'd have we're about
Speaker 1: comedy versus reality, So we had these discussions a lot.
Speaker 1: I think we had them even camera wise. Um, we
Speaker 1: also had a lot of moments we were talking about
Speaker 1: Michael and Jan unbelievable relationship, so funny when once we
Speaker 1: got to the point where he seemed like he was
Speaker 1: almost evolving past her. That moment we had so many
Speaker 1: fights in the room because we and the fights seemed
Speaker 1: to be comedy versus mockumentary, but like reality versus comedy.
Speaker 1: It felt to me like if we were doing a
Speaker 1: mockumentary documentary, if we're leaning into that, we would want
Speaker 1: this character of Michael Scott to keep growing. If we're
Speaker 1: just thinking with our comedy glasses on, Jane is Jan
Speaker 1: and Michael are hilarious, right, So there's this tension of
Speaker 1: should we keep him stuck in this relationship because we
Speaker 1: can mind it for ridiculous humor, or should we evolve him?
Speaker 1: So I always lean to the point of evolving. I
Speaker 1: just start as a viewer with that particular show, disconnecting
Speaker 1: a little if I feel that somebody is stuck in
Speaker 1: a thing that would not be stuck in real life,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? And I think the
Speaker 1: audience feels that too, they feel like they're being jerked around,
Speaker 1: And then I think you have it more with Michael
Speaker 1: and with the Jim and Pam. We had those discussions
Speaker 1: most with those characters. Everybody, we wanted to evolve or
Speaker 1: see different shades of or have them go through journey.
Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes they go forward, sometimes they go backwards, but
Speaker 1: we'd want to see some amount of movement. But specifically,
Speaker 1: the biggest fights were even Michael's evolution because it was
Speaker 1: so central to what we were seeing, and also with
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam. So I remember those fights. I remember,
Speaker 1: and I remember being like, oh no, we need to
Speaker 1: at some point, we can't break It felt fake to
Speaker 1: break Jim and Pam up once. Once. It was those
Speaker 1: characters set up by Greg and the early writers and
Speaker 1: then acted by John and Jenna in such a ridiculously
Speaker 1: beautiful way. I didn't believe that the threats that we
Speaker 1: were talking about that could come in to keep them
Speaker 1: apart so that we could kind of have more of
Speaker 1: that juice. It just didn't. Yeah, So I um, I've
Speaker 1: talked to a few people about this, just about comedy too,
Speaker 1: And I had this director that I worked with, and
Speaker 1: he was obsessed with the notion that comedy exists off
Speaker 1: of the beat. But Greg said something that you were
Speaker 1: just talking about which is kind of the same idea. Actually,
Speaker 1: you guys both said it in different ways, but about
Speaker 1: Pam and Jim, that there becomes an inevitability. And so
Speaker 1: what Greg said was the choice ultimately was get him together.
Speaker 1: Actually sooner than anyone thinks, right, so suddenly, like it
Speaker 1: happens sort of in an instant, so fast on one
Speaker 1: second you think he's going to be the manager at
Speaker 1: another branch, and then one second later it's do you
Speaker 1: want to go on a date? And then they're off
Speaker 1: and rolling. That's so pure Greg. He's such a genius.
Speaker 1: And what I love is he did that multiple times.
Speaker 1: He would we would come up with an idea or something,
Speaker 1: and he would advance it to to have that surprise factor.
Speaker 1: And what I loved about him was that he had
Speaker 1: the confidence and the skills clearly obviously to take that
Speaker 1: risk of doing something earlier than what was expected and
Speaker 1: knowing that we would be able to deal with the
Speaker 1: fallout of like together. You know, um and I can't
Speaker 1: quite remember. I just can't remember. There was a season
Speaker 1: that we ended on a cliffhanger. We wrote ourselves a
Speaker 1: little bit into a corner and then we're just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like never point guess what, we have
Speaker 1: eight weeks after this to figure it out. But I
Speaker 1: love that because it's daring and it's brave and it's
Speaker 1: not like waiting till the last second and waiting till
Speaker 1: it all has it planned out. So there's like a
Speaker 1: thrill in terms of being a writer and story when
Speaker 1: you have Jim and Pam get together before you think,
Speaker 1: then you have to deal with all the repercussions of
Speaker 1: that quicker and it's scary, but that's there's a thrill
Speaker 1: about that. It's exciting. Right, I'm gonna go back a second,
Speaker 1: because you were so articulate in your idea of of
Speaker 1: truth and comedy that no one has explained to me before.
Speaker 1: I know that there was a discussion about this and
Speaker 1: way way less significant then you know how long Michael
Speaker 1: should stay with jan or the Jim and Pam thing.
Speaker 1: But when Dwight plays a prank on Holly and tells
Speaker 1: her that Kevin is slow, and everyone was like, we
Speaker 1: gotta keep this going, we gotta keep this going. But
Speaker 1: that actually you sort of saying that story for that
Speaker 1: joke too. That was my joke ahead, which I think
Speaker 1: you'll find you'll appreciate well. But just my point was
Speaker 1: that at a certain point in terms of truth versus comedy, like,
Speaker 1: at what point does it become unbelievable that Holly doesn't
Speaker 1: really know the truth. So that that just occurred to
Speaker 1: me as you were talking, like oh, I get that, yeah,
Speaker 1: that you're trying to find It ended up pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: But it's because there's a reality and a believability and
Speaker 1: the audience feels it. I feel like it's not all
Speaker 1: day is that they know exactly what it is. But
Speaker 1: I feel like there are certain things about that show
Speaker 1: particular that if you went in a different direction, it
Speaker 1: can distance the audience. I mean one of the classic
Speaker 1: things is that you know, if hair starts looking too
Speaker 1: good and makeup and wardrobe and the lights look too beautiful,
Speaker 1: it's like you're starting to feel a distance between these people.
Speaker 1: So I feel like there was a reality that you
Speaker 1: wanted to keep. Um just thinking about that joke, h
Speaker 1: the backstory to that, there was a point in the
Speaker 1: show where I think it was coming from like Greg
Speaker 1: just feeling like, you know, probably doing twenty eight episodes
Speaker 1: of season, but it was like we're getting lazy, We're
Speaker 1: getting lazy. We we know this about this character. We
Speaker 1: know this about this character. What else do we know
Speaker 1: about this character? So we did it for many, many
Speaker 1: of the characters. I think all of them probably, but
Speaker 1: I was specifically remember we were like, what do we
Speaker 1: know about Kevin? We know that he likes to snack,
Speaker 1: we know that he's maybe not the brightest accountant that
Speaker 1: we have. Right, So it's like, if we're lazy, go
Speaker 1: to these things too often? Right, So you know, in
Speaker 1: the ven diagram of all the things we know about
Speaker 1: Kevin or whatever, what are some more things like does
Speaker 1: he like opera? Would that makes sense for though we
Speaker 1: know about Kevin? I mean literally we did this for
Speaker 1: multiple characters. But this was the moment that I remember
Speaker 1: being in there, right when I was about to go
Speaker 1: off and write a script. And so I went off.
Speaker 1: In my interpretation of that was just to take one
Speaker 1: of those two things to blow it up. Like I
Speaker 1: I did definitely try to reach deeper, because he was
Speaker 1: saying like, go bigger, go deeper, find more. So now
Speaker 1: I took it all the way to the part where
Speaker 1: it was like, yeah, Kevin is like, you know, mentally slow,
Speaker 1: and there's a real there's a real issue here, and
Speaker 1: that's Holly's interpretation of it. And when I did it,
Speaker 1: I think I did it as a joke. It definitely
Speaker 1: was one joke in the script. It might have been two.
Speaker 1: And then I brought it back to the room and
Speaker 1: they're like, no, no, no, we're doing more, more and more.
Speaker 1: So we expanded it. But I just I was a
Speaker 1: little bit delighted its last, embarrassed about the fact that
Speaker 1: my goal was to find something different. I just doubled
Speaker 1: down on maybe not right. Well, I don't know. It
Speaker 1: always made me laugh. It always made me laugh. Um,
Speaker 1: was there anything else that was specific or unique? Do
Speaker 1: you remember about this writing room? Writer's room? It was
Speaker 1: the best writer's room I've ever been in. Uh, and
Speaker 1: I feel like it will be the best writer's room
Speaker 1: I'm ever in. I think the writers were exceptionally talented,
Speaker 1: and Greg was saying that everybody had their own super strength,
Speaker 1: but everybody was good at story and comedy and and motion.
Speaker 1: I felt that certain people, yeah, we're gifts, more gifts,
Speaker 1: more gifted in certain areas. But I've worked on staffs
Speaker 1: where one person was story, one person was comedy. There
Speaker 1: was a little bit more like that, and I felt
Speaker 1: like this staff everybody had the ability to do everything,
Speaker 1: and the fact that everybody cared so much. There was
Speaker 1: an enormous discussion. I don't know if anybody talked about
Speaker 1: it between whether the proposal should have sound or no sound.
Speaker 1: There were people on both sides. It was about fifty fifty.
Speaker 1: It was the craziest discussion. It was whether or not.
Speaker 1: When we saw Jim proposed to Pam we should have
Speaker 1: sound and hear what he's saying, or just see the
Speaker 1: visual of him in the rain getting on one knee,
Speaker 1: and I found that that really explained the writer's room.
Speaker 1: Everybody cared so much. There was one moment where Greg
Speaker 1: was getting into his car, you know, after the discussion
Speaker 1: had gone on for a month and we were about to,
Speaker 1: you know, have to settle on it, where I was
Speaker 1: coming from a trailer and he was getting into his
Speaker 1: car and I said Greg, and he like turned and
Speaker 1: he was like kind of trapped between his car door
Speaker 1: in his car, and I was like, did you make
Speaker 1: did you decide yeah it was sound or no sound,
Speaker 1: And he's like, no, no, I haven't, I haven't. It
Speaker 1: was literally a horror film stalking him to find out
Speaker 1: if the decision had been made. Um, we argued passionately,
Speaker 1: and it's just because everybody cared. And I think that, um,
Speaker 1: a lot of it was just for the passion with
Speaker 1: which the passion everybody had for telling the story. I
Speaker 1: can talk a little bit about the sound. No sound
Speaker 1: if you want to hear it, but you might hear
Speaker 1: it from everybody else. Go ahead. UM, So that was
Speaker 1: actually a decision a little bit that I feel like
Speaker 1: came down to another discussion that we had a lot
Speaker 1: of times in the room, which was kind of being
Speaker 1: more documentary and a little bit more real and a
Speaker 1: little bit more subtle and being a little bit more
Speaker 1: like a comedy or a show. So uh, basically, the
Speaker 1: side that wanted to hear Jim's words were like, you've
Speaker 1: been waiting forever to hear him propose to Pam. Why
Speaker 1: would you take that moment away from people and not
Speaker 1: hear his actual words. It's like they've been waiting for it.
Speaker 1: You want to give them what they've been waiting for.
Speaker 1: Just might be slightly more of a comedy show kind
Speaker 1: of thing with a documentary mockumentary thing. It was a
Speaker 1: little bit more of like, God, it's so beautiful and
Speaker 1: subtle and to be across the street and I have
Speaker 1: to reach for it because he would turn his mic
Speaker 1: off in this moment, it's a big moment. And once
Speaker 1: you see him down on one knee, we know what
Speaker 1: he's saying. And then actually filling in the blank is
Speaker 1: more beautiful. We went back and forth about this for
Speaker 1: so long. At one point, um Greg asked me to
Speaker 1: send in my pros and cons list, like sounded, no sound,
Speaker 1: And then I remember I was in his office a
Speaker 1: little bit later. We didn't still had made a decision,
Speaker 1: and I saw a list of people who wanted sound
Speaker 1: and a list of people who wanted no sound, and
Speaker 1: his wife and two kids was on one side of
Speaker 1: the list and two other kids or his wife and
Speaker 1: one kids on Once I listened to other kids. His
Speaker 1: family was split down the middle. So he was interviewing
Speaker 1: everybody and saying what should we do? What should we do?
Speaker 1: Um So there was a moment he was at the
Speaker 1: sound mix we were he had to make the decision,
Speaker 1: like this is the moment, and he's like, is there
Speaker 1: anybody we haven't asked? Is there anybody we haven't asked?
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, yeah, the security guard is there,
Speaker 1: you know security guard whose name I can't quite remember him. Sorry,
Speaker 1: but I go and I get the security guard and
Speaker 1: it occurs to me during my walk to the office
Speaker 1: that he's never seen the office. The lovely, lovely man
Speaker 1: protected us all. So I'm like, okay, cool. So now
Speaker 1: we've just got a very objective person. So I show
Speaker 1: him the scene without sound, and then I show him
Speaker 1: the scene with sound, and I say, what did you prefer?
Speaker 1: And he said I liked the second one. And I
Speaker 1: said why He said, oh, because I could hear it. Okay, Greg,
Speaker 1: he said he like the second one because he could
Speaker 1: hear it. So that was anyway, that wasn't what how
Speaker 1: the decision was made, but that was our last person
Speaker 1: weighing in, and then you know, it ended up airing
Speaker 1: with sound. But um, but it was the debate about
Speaker 1: whether or not it should be sound or no sound
Speaker 1: was the writer's room. To me, it was everybody incredibly
Speaker 1: passionate about something that we had worked towards, UM and
Speaker 1: just we've we cared. Well. It's fascinating to me. Um,
Speaker 1: when Steve left and Pam goes to say goodbye, there's
Speaker 1: no sound. You know, it's weird. I saw it. I
Speaker 1: loved it. I just got chills when you even just
Speaker 1: described it because it's it's such a beautiful moment and
Speaker 1: I don't know if it speaks to there's a secret
Speaker 1: dynamic between Pam and Michael that we just can't be
Speaker 1: privy to. I don't know, but it's a similar kind
Speaker 1: of moment, right, I mean, it's like, maybe, do you
Speaker 1: think it's possible that because the other one involved Jim
Speaker 1: and Pam and there were so many people like rooting
Speaker 1: for that relationship and kind of squeeking or whatever about
Speaker 1: them that you couldn't take that moment away from them.
Speaker 1: But for Pam and Michael, who have an incredibly special
Speaker 1: dynamic too, it's not a like romantic thing. So it's
Speaker 1: not like fans have been shipping them for four years
Speaker 1: and we can do that. I don't know. I really
Speaker 1: don't know because I don't know. But it's it's interesting
Speaker 1: because what you say is how people fill it in
Speaker 1: that moment when Michael leaves. You can't write it. It's
Speaker 1: written with Pam telling you what was said, but did
Speaker 1: she include every detail? And what she says is beautiful,
Speaker 1: but you don't I don't know. It's it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: I like when you so, I on the staff, like
Speaker 1: when you have to fill in the blanks more. I
Speaker 1: think when in Casino night we were we had another
Speaker 1: huge fight on staff about, you know, how to portray something,
Speaker 1: whether to make Jim and Pam in the parking lot
Speaker 1: more you know, dirty or not. And I was always
Speaker 1: I didn't want to miss everything. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: be late to the party, or find the shadow of
Speaker 1: them and to hear them talking, to not see it
Speaker 1: the cleanest, to not be very clean in terms of
Speaker 1: the presentation. I always wanted to reach, because I think
Speaker 1: reaching and filling the blanks is more. But I was
Speaker 1: probably on one end of the spectrum in that room
Speaker 1: with those things. Well, Greg brought up both of those moments,
Speaker 1: and I think, and I'm certainly not coming down on
Speaker 1: one side or the other. I think that I would
Speaker 1: tend to agree with you that I loved that moment
Speaker 1: when Michael leaves. I think it's perfect. But it's interesting
Speaker 1: what Greg said in that moment in the parking lot. Specifically,
Speaker 1: he said, these are really skilled actors and you can
Speaker 1: see a lot in their faces, and so in this moment,
Speaker 1: we need to see their face. Oh, that's brilliant and
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. Like I understand that,
Speaker 1: I completely get that. There was an interesting discussion and
Speaker 1: it wasn't um that came up that I forgot to
Speaker 1: mention when we were talking about sounds no sound and
Speaker 1: I was talking to my dad about offensive and defensive
Speaker 1: decision making. I mean, we were just digging deep in
Speaker 1: this sound really sounds like they're digging deep. And what
Speaker 1: I learned too, and this is where I know that
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm on the super kind of weirdo end of
Speaker 1: the spectrum, is that with offensive, you just do what's
Speaker 1: your gut instinct and what's your best thing that you
Speaker 1: think you should do, and you don't worry about anything
Speaker 1: else any other factors. With defensive, that I think is
Speaker 1: an important ing, but I don't pay attention to it enough.
Speaker 1: Is what do the fans want? What will feel satisfying?
Speaker 1: Will I regret? You just kind of go outside? Do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean to think about you think
Speaker 1: about the audience a little bit more so in terms
Speaker 1: of the moment, specifically for Jim and Pam. Are we
Speaker 1: thinking what do we want to do kind of artistically,
Speaker 1: show wise, character wise, or are we thinking what do
Speaker 1: people want? You joined the staff in season two when
Speaker 1: the show was still well, we didn't know how many
Speaker 1: we were gonna do. Um, And so the question really
Speaker 1: is what factors do you think helped to make the show?
Speaker 1: From the beginning of season two getting a six episode order,
Speaker 1: two by the end, completing a full twenty two episode season,
Speaker 1: and then immediately getting a third season. Were there any
Speaker 1: factors that you can point to for what was happening?
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it, and I've forgotten sort
Speaker 1: of the behind the scenes people fighting for it because
Speaker 1: I feel like Ben Silverman, a lot of people just
Speaker 1: fought very hard for things that I wasn't privy too.
Speaker 1: I was just coming on to try and you know, right,
Speaker 1: but I know that there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: fighting very hard for the show. Um. I think a
Speaker 1: couple of things. I think one was just reattacking Correll's
Speaker 1: character and just giving it more dimensions, just giving it
Speaker 1: more of a three and sixty degree feel. I think.
Speaker 1: I think, Um, well, there was another sort of significant
Speaker 1: thing that happened, which I don't expect you to remember,
Speaker 1: but iTunes launch. Yes, yes, so, um, I remember going
Speaker 1: and getting a computer around that time and seeing the
Speaker 1: Apple Store just had the office everywhere. So yeah, so
Speaker 1: iTunes launching huge. Yeah, so then people could just you know,
Speaker 1: download it and watch it. And then it started to
Speaker 1: feel like people were watching it, Like I think b
Speaker 1: J had this thing he said that it felt like
Speaker 1: it was an inside joke with our fans, like like
Speaker 1: like we didn't know that a lot of a ton
Speaker 1: of people were watching it. We just kept meeting some
Speaker 1: people who were fans and they were going crazy for it.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if the numbers were necessarily reflected
Speaker 1: right away. And I also remember Jenny Tan from Office
Speaker 1: Tally and I remember Jenna was like on my Space
Speaker 1: talking to fans. So I think the communication with the
Speaker 1: fans and and other ways for people to watch the show.
Speaker 1: And I also think deleted scenes started really helping us too,
Speaker 1: is that people were getting bonus material and they were
Speaker 1: really excited about that. And I don't know when quite
Speaker 1: that was, if that was a little bit later or Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's this whole sort of wave of technology that was
Speaker 1: kids meant for the show. That people have been able
Speaker 1: to use the new technology that existed in the moment
Speaker 1: sort of at the perfect time for the office. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember us going on office tally at the end
Speaker 1: of every episode to see like what the fans thought.
Speaker 1: That was just really like live time, kind of like
Speaker 1: reviews of the show by the people who watched it,
Speaker 1: and it was just fascinating. How much did that influence
Speaker 1: the writers its debt? We definitely felt it, I don't think,
Speaker 1: but you should ask other people because I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I don't remember it ever affecting any like storylines or changes,
Speaker 1: but I think that it was a barometer for certain things.
Speaker 1: You know, if we were slowing down Pam and Jim
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, I like the fact that it's slow,
Speaker 1: we would, you know, like we we might not feel
Speaker 1: the pressure of it as much. So I feel like
Speaker 1: there were little things like that, But it was never like, oh,
Speaker 1: they want this, so we have to give it to them,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? But there was a
Speaker 1: moment and you should you have to confirm this. Um.
Speaker 1: We would have little debates in the room and then
Speaker 1: I remember we would read the fans and every once
Speaker 1: in a while the fans would comment on something that we,
Speaker 1: you know, like should we do proposal sound or no sound?
Speaker 1: And then fans would day like someone would be like
Speaker 1: I wish there was no sound or which would be
Speaker 1: weird because like, how would they even know. But there
Speaker 1: was one little debate and I cannot remember what it was,
Speaker 1: but it was small. It was a small debate, but
Speaker 1: it was passionate as most things, and I think that
Speaker 1: Lee was on one side of the debate and I
Speaker 1: was on the other side of the debate. And after
Speaker 1: the episode aired, somebody on Office Telly said something that
Speaker 1: was just, you know, totally agreeing with like how Lee
Speaker 1: felt and not agreeing at all with what I felt.
Speaker 1: And I was like, that's a bump or whatever. A
Speaker 1: few weeks or months later, I found out that Lee
Speaker 1: was that person he wrote into Office tallion or a
Speaker 1: fake name, just writing it. This was like the original
Speaker 1: burner accounts existed in the Office writers throw you just
Speaker 1: confirmed this with Lee, But I'm sure he did it.
Speaker 1: I think he was just doing it to give me ship,
Speaker 1: because like he disagreed with me, and he's like, look,
Speaker 1: even the fans dis agree with you. I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: what fun? This is not cool? He said. I really
Speaker 1: thought people like the drug desting episode, did anyone like
Speaker 1: you or there's just you guys, it was like, is
Speaker 1: anybody here not in the writer's room? Is azing? I
Speaker 1: was aware. I mean as an actor, I typically chose
Speaker 1: to not read it because because one, it's just not
Speaker 1: it's just not helpful. And too it's the old thing
Speaker 1: where if fifty people say nice things about you and
Speaker 1: then one that we got that, then it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, that's my comedy writerness or my jewishness, although
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. But yeah, people say
Speaker 1: something nice and one person is something wrong. It's like,
Speaker 1: what is that? Why did they say that? That must
Speaker 1: be true? I don't know. Immediately forget all the other ones. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: By the way, this our conversation today, which I think
Speaker 1: is going really really well, so I realized I can
Speaker 1: take a pause. Here are people in the booth and
Speaker 1: nobody will ever know. I like, no, but I like
Speaker 1: keeping our conversation going. Tell you a story about someone
Speaker 1: who didn't like the office that I had this funny
Speaker 1: exchange I was. I was on a plane early on
Speaker 1: season three or four, had a dunder Mifflin sweatshirts getting
Speaker 1: off the plane where the pilot was saying thank you
Speaker 1: for flying, and he was an older man. I saw
Speaker 1: my dunder Mifflin sweatshirt. He's like, what is that? What
Speaker 1: is that? And I said dunder Mifflin. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's dunder Mifflin. He's like, I know what that is.
Speaker 1: It's the Office. And I like something in his tone
Speaker 1: and I didn't didn't be like, yeah, I'm working on
Speaker 1: is my favorite however, I love it. He's like, I
Speaker 1: don't like that show. I was just like, and he's
Speaker 1: just venting. By the way, there's people stacking up behind
Speaker 1: me trying to exit the plane. He goes, I'm so
Speaker 1: stressed on a day to day basis. Everything stresses me out.
Speaker 1: Everybody I work with stresses me out. I don't want
Speaker 1: to come home and feel that people are stressed out
Speaker 1: about where they work, like is blood pressure was like
Speaker 1: going through the room and and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: have a good day. And I was so grateful that
Speaker 1: he had landed. The plane got really tense, and I
Speaker 1: for everybody who's loved it, I mean I have. I
Speaker 1: think the Office has got more fans than anything. I
Speaker 1: just want to go talk to University of Michigan. And
Speaker 1: I had a line of people afterwards that were just
Speaker 1: like a hundred people who just wanted to say what
Speaker 1: the show meant to them and how excited they were. Anyway,
Speaker 1: that always sticks in my brain. If this guy just
Speaker 1: seeing the words dunder Mifflin, his blood pressure went off
Speaker 1: because he doesn't like uncomfortable humor, he doesn't like crane humor,
Speaker 1: and he must have seen particularly uncomfortable episode where people
Speaker 1: were frustrated. Right well, I mean one of the things
Speaker 1: that I've always said was that it has a subversive
Speaker 1: quality that I think appeals potentially to younger people. I
Speaker 1: had a conversation with my parents very similar to to
Speaker 1: your pilot story where they were talking about their friends
Speaker 1: whodn't who didn't like It's just too mean and Michael's
Speaker 1: God is just too mean? And here was my answer.
Speaker 1: My answer was, you know, what's the the actual number
Speaker 1: one show in television at that time was um, you
Speaker 1: know through all the demographic however, all you are was
Speaker 1: c s I this is true, I said, so, mom,
Speaker 1: this is what you should should say to them, is
Speaker 1: it's way more comfortable for you to watch which every
Speaker 1: episode opened with a half naked dead woman or teenager
Speaker 1: lying in the desert and to hear somebody say something
Speaker 1: potentially a little uncomfortable or maybe hits a little too
Speaker 1: close to think long and hard about that challenge. That yeah,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. All right. That is it for now, guys.
Speaker 1: But that is just the tip of the iceberg with Jen,
Speaker 1: just the tip. We didn't even get to the fact
Speaker 1: that she went on to run our show with Paul
Speaker 1: Lieberstein in season five. So we will have a lot
Speaker 1: more to talk about with Jen in a future episode.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, thank you all for listening, and let's
Speaker 1: let's take a page out of Jen's book this week,
Speaker 1: all right and try to laugh just a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week. The Office. Deep Dive is
Speaker 1: hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner alongside our
Speaker 1: executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
Speaker 1: is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Speaker 1: Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
Speaker 1: great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by
Speaker 1: seth Olandsky h