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Speaker 1: I'm Jen Salada and I was a writer on the Office.

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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, Welcome, one and all to the latest and

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Speaker 1: for this week greatest installment of the Office Deep Dive.

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Speaker 1: I am your host Brian Baumgartner. Today you will be

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Speaker 1: experiencing my conversation with Jen Salada. Now. Jen joined our

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Speaker 1: show as a writer in season two. And if you

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Speaker 1: listen to my conversation with Mike, sure you know that

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Speaker 1: Mike describes Jen as the beating heart of the show.

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Speaker 1: I had never thought of it that way, but I

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Speaker 1: realized after he said it that that is so true

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Speaker 1: and and you can totally see Jen's influence on the show.

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Speaker 1: Starting in that second season, Jen wrote some of the

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Speaker 1: most complex, subtle psychological storylines that we ever had, and

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Speaker 1: it was so fun for me to talk about that

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Speaker 1: with her. Um. Jen is also crazy smart and absolutely hilarious,

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Speaker 1: and she has the most infectious laugh, which you will

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Speaker 1: hear lots of momentarily. Um. But most importantly, she was

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Speaker 1: the only guest who brought me cookies when she came

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Speaker 1: in to talk. That's right, she she brought me cookies.

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Speaker 1: So that officially makes Jen my favorite guest of all time.

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Speaker 1: So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my friend and soon

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Speaker 1: to be yours, Jen Salata, Bubble and squeak I love it,

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Speaker 1: Bubble and squeak on Bubble and squeaker Cookie every mon

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Speaker 1: lift over from the naty. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, good

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Speaker 1: to see you look the same. I saw you look awesome.

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Speaker 1: The thing with dudes is they get you get to

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Speaker 1: look better when you get older girls. True, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a problem. It's like some distinguished silver fox gray

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Speaker 1: that happens like girls. Don't you know? Why? Why can't

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Speaker 1: Why can't girls have that? I don't know. I'll try

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Speaker 1: it out. It's just a little just a little side gray.

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Speaker 1: Look you look, God, you do truth speak truth God.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we hang home before? And I think it

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Speaker 1: every time we hang out? That should be microphones, We shouldn't.

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Speaker 1: We should always accord everything and no laws, just big

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Speaker 1: just big Mike's Um. I just spent some time with

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Speaker 1: Ed Helms, so cool. Yeah, ran out of here to

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Speaker 1: make sure he didn't see you. Seriously, what is all about?

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Speaker 1: You know what's amazing? I was going to maybe tell

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Speaker 1: a sort of embarrassing story that doesn't make him look bad,

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Speaker 1: that makes me totally embarrass about it. I never told

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Speaker 1: on anything. Okay, go, it's totally embarrassing though you're ready, Yes, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is embarrassing. Why am I starting with this? But

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Speaker 1: you just mentioned his name is so funny. So um,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember what season this was, but you'll know

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Speaker 1: from what I'm talking about. Uh. I had an idea

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Speaker 1: where Ed was going to sing take a chance on me,

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Speaker 1: and um, I remember I told Greg that idea and

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Speaker 1: he's like, go down and tell Ed, you know, talk

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Speaker 1: to him about it, you know, about the song because

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Speaker 1: he'll be singing it soon. And I just remember, like,

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Speaker 1: being a fan of Eds from The Daily Show, it

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Speaker 1: was an attractive, interesting, cool dorky, you know, banjo playing dude.

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Speaker 1: So like there was a part of me that was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is a cool dude. And I guess I got

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Speaker 1: a little kind of nervous about you know, like I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's just a tiny bit nervous roun him

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Speaker 1: at first, you know, professional, but just like a little

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Speaker 1: bit nervous. So I go over and I knock on

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Speaker 1: his trailer door because I have to ask him, you know,

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Speaker 1: do you know this song? And let's talk about this

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Speaker 1: song or whatever. I'm assuming he knows that he knows music.

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Speaker 1: He's Mr Music right knock on his door. He's like, hey, Jen.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Hi, So I had this idea for

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Speaker 1: an episode coming up soon, probably next week. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember this, remembering exactly what, and and I said, it's

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Speaker 1: take a chance on me. And I said, you know

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Speaker 1: that song? He's like what. I was like, you know

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Speaker 1: that song? He did not know the song. So I

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Speaker 1: had to sing, take a chance on me, do it.

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Speaker 1: I'm the parking lot of the office, and I can't sing. Also,

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Speaker 1: I can't sing, and I'm singing to a singer. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: he was lovely. It was all fine, but it was

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Speaker 1: one of the dorky moments of my life. That's so funny.

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Speaker 1: I never told him that because it was just awkward,

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Speaker 1: because I wouldn't want to be like, I'm nervous around you.

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Speaker 1: But now I'll tell the world. There it is. I

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Speaker 1: will make sure he hears that story. Um, all right,

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Speaker 1: So you so pre you You came to the office

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Speaker 1: in season two, which basically was when Lee and Gen

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Speaker 1: joined too. You were the new kids. How was that,

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Speaker 1: by the way, coming into that room? It was it

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Speaker 1: was great. It was intimidating. I had been on a

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Speaker 1: bunch of other writing staffs I've been writing for a while,

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Speaker 1: but this I was a huge fan of the show.

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Speaker 1: I was a huge fan of The British Office, and

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Speaker 1: then I was on Malcolm the Middle and watching The

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Speaker 1: American Office, and I'd watched The Office when it aired.

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Speaker 1: In the next morning, all I talked about at work

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Speaker 1: was The Office. It was delightful for the well I

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Speaker 1: was trying to write Malcolm um and uh. So I

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Speaker 1: was just very intimidated at first, but excited. I felt

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Speaker 1: like there were a lot of shows that I worked

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Speaker 1: on that um, there were a few shows that were

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Speaker 1: my sensibility. I got to work on Andy Richter Controls

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Speaker 1: the Universe, and got to work on some other, you know, interesting,

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Speaker 1: cool shows. But this show was the first show where

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh God, like the humor and the

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Speaker 1: heart everything about it I just felt like so connected

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Speaker 1: to and also just kind of dryer, subtle humor, dry humor,

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Speaker 1: subtle humor. There were so many things that were appealing

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Speaker 1: to me about it. So I both was incredibly excited

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Speaker 1: and also like, don't funk this up. Um, so let

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Speaker 1: me rewind a little bit. So you you're on Malcolm

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Speaker 1: in the Middle, and then what happens you You get

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Speaker 1: a meeting with get a meeting with Greg. I was

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Speaker 1: on a development deal actually also with NBC. So I

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Speaker 1: left Malcolm in the Middle. Um, full disclosure. Did not

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Speaker 1: get asked back to Malcolm Middle that will come back.

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Speaker 1: Maybe because I just talked about the office all the time.

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Speaker 1: They were like what the hell? But um, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I left. I had a meeting with Greg. I met

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Speaker 1: him at a coffee bean somewhere, just desperately wanted to

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Speaker 1: be on the show. Had a fantastic meeting, loved him instantly.

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Speaker 1: Had There was a very pregnant pause in my interview

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Speaker 1: with him of just it felt like it was like

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Speaker 1: five minutes long, but I'm not quite sure. It was

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Speaker 1: just him sort of kind of putting his hand on

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Speaker 1: his forehead and looking down and I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is I have no idea which way

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Speaker 1: this is going, because like I think it was going well,

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Speaker 1: but I don't really know. And there's a long pause,

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Speaker 1: and then he was like, hey, do you want to

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Speaker 1: you want to join the staff. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of it probably to Gregg's later Dismay is that when

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Speaker 1: he was silent for a little while, just trying to

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Speaker 1: process or think about things or who knows what, I

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Speaker 1: didn't speak, then surprise, surprise, I wouldn't shut up once

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Speaker 1: you hired, right, And I can tell you a funny

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Speaker 1: story about that as well. I yeah, no, So I

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Speaker 1: I felt so aligned with the office before, just even

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Speaker 1: as a fan, and I noted we made some there

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Speaker 1: were some changes, and we did some tweaking the things

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Speaker 1: going into season two, which made it even more maybe

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Speaker 1: in my wheelhouse of kind of heart and you know,

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Speaker 1: rooting for Krall and kind of finding the underbelly of

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Speaker 1: his character and stuff like that. But season one, I

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Speaker 1: was just a huge fan. So right, so waits well,

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Speaker 1: so many things. First of all, so what I've been

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Speaker 1: told was that Greg, in consultation with the network and

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah, he needed to soften Steve first season two,

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Speaker 1: that Kevin Riley was very happy with what had happened,

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Speaker 1: but that people watching it was actually something that you

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Speaker 1: want in television, and so he Greg came in. It

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Speaker 1: will be interesting to hear your perspective on this, because

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Speaker 1: you weren't a writer before, but that Greg was the

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Speaker 1: one who pushed for Steve being softened, and that there

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Speaker 1: was everyone else who was in the room, and a

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Speaker 1: writer at the time felt like, no, you're going to

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Speaker 1: kill the show. Oh that's fascinating. I could. I do

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Speaker 1: have thoughts on it, even though I wasn't there, um,

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Speaker 1: because I think that depending on how you interpret soften,

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Speaker 1: it could sound like something that could be very threatening

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Speaker 1: to the show. And it could for me because I

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Speaker 1: know what it ended up being. I'll explain why. I

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Speaker 1: think it was a great decision. But I remember we

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Speaker 1: were early on in season two talking about how do

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Speaker 1: we do this, and a lot of people had great ideas.

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Speaker 1: I just remember specifically, Um, I had talked to my dad,

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Speaker 1: who's a physicist. To come from a very kind of

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Speaker 1: nerdy door them family a physicist and the psychologist and

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Speaker 1: the mechanical engineers, my brother and my dad was in

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Speaker 1: UH had to high level position where he ended up

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Speaker 1: having to fire people. And I remember him telling me

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Speaker 1: about firing people from the point of view of a boss,

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Speaker 1: that it's like you always are thinking about the person

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Speaker 1: who gets fired, because that's the person you're sympathizing with. Right,

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Speaker 1: of course, you're going to tell a story you would

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Speaker 1: sympathize with the person who's being fired. I remember my

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Speaker 1: dad's saying, it's very kind of lonely, weird thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you're having to make a decision that's affecting another

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Speaker 1: person and it's really difficult. And sort of the extension

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Speaker 1: of that with having Michael Scott, who just like you,

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Speaker 1: guys are his family and if you have to get

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Speaker 1: rid of one of you, it's devastating. It was just

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Speaker 1: sort of an interesting way to see things that affect him,

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Speaker 1: but to understand and feel for him, do you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? I think I think it's the feeling

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Speaker 1: for him and seeing the underbelling and seeing the why

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Speaker 1: of what he's doing, as opposed to what I think

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Speaker 1: was a very common network note often which is makes

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Speaker 1: someone more likable. And I think that if you take

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Speaker 1: that for what it sounds like, just make somebody more likable,

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Speaker 1: it feels like you're taking all the character and everything

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Speaker 1: away and you're just softing them into this benign mush

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Speaker 1: of human which would like imagine Correll having to play

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Speaker 1: somebody just you know, that couldn't have any edges, that

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Speaker 1: couldn't do outrageously ridiculously bad things. Right, well, and I

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Speaker 1: think we're What Greg ultimately said was that for the episode,

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Speaker 1: it would play the same way that he could still

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Speaker 1: do this behavior. He could still be an idiot, he

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Speaker 1: could still be insensitive, but then just find just a moment,

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Speaker 1: tiny moment at the end that where you see this

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Speaker 1: other side of him and actually you talked about um

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Speaker 1: firing someone. And there's the Halloween episode and again that

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Speaker 1: last moment you just see him giving out the candy

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Speaker 1: to the kids and just humanizes him in a way

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Speaker 1: where you understand like there's a kind of a man

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Speaker 1: who's alone and he's given out candy. He's got the

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Speaker 1: sweet part of him. Yeah, I agree, I can understand.

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Speaker 1: We had more arguments in that room than almost any

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Speaker 1: other room I've ever been in, and they were, like

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Speaker 1: I always say, it was like a healthy marriage where

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to fight. They're supposed to be fighting. It's

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Speaker 1: safe and we love each other, but we would fight.

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Speaker 1: And I just think it's because we all gave a ship.

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Speaker 1: It's like we really really cared. I've been in rooms

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Speaker 1: where everybody just sits there and kind of you know, wait,

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Speaker 1: still time to go home more, And this was not

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Speaker 1: that everybody cared desperately about everything. Yeah, um, do you

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Speaker 1: think being a woman and only you and Mendy were

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Speaker 1: women at the time, writers, do you feel like, well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, how was that for you? You know,

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Speaker 1: I always feel like in this I'm supposed to be

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Speaker 1: saying more than I do, or I'm reevaluating how I

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Speaker 1: felt all the time, But I didn't think about it

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Speaker 1: like I just I. I don't know. I'll talk with

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Speaker 1: the office specifically in a second. But I've been so

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Speaker 1: incredibly fortunate in my career to work worth incredibly evolved men,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like, yes, I always wish there were

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Speaker 1: more women and more diversity in every staff always, that

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Speaker 1: is always something that I wanted and wished for and

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Speaker 1: asked for. But I did feel uncomfortable in any way. Um,

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Speaker 1: I just felt very blessed and lucky. Again, it's on me.

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Speaker 1: It's it's certainly in the later days to try to

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Speaker 1: incorporate and bring in other people and make rooms more diverse.

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Speaker 1: But um, I didn't have that feeling. And certainly when

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Speaker 1: I got there, Mindy was there, and so I felt

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Speaker 1: like and there were maybe I don't remember now, six

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Speaker 1: of us, seven of us, and you know, so there

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Speaker 1: were two women out of seven, and I knew she

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Speaker 1: was incredibly talented and just loved working with her. But

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Speaker 1: um no, I didn't. I had a didn't continue. I

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Speaker 1: feel like it should have occurred to me more than

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Speaker 1: it did, and it didn't. So that's how I feel

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Speaker 1: a responsibility to other ladies, you know, to just sort

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Speaker 1: of go back and you know, think of things. So

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Speaker 1: I certainly have had female friends that have had more,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I was the only woman on maybe

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Speaker 1: three staffs that I've been on. And even in those situations, again, yes,

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Speaker 1: I would always like to have the more voices in

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Speaker 1: the room and the more diverse the voices are in

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Speaker 1: the room. The beat of the show is just is

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Speaker 1: so it always should be that way. But on the

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Speaker 1: shows when I was coming up there, guys that I

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Speaker 1: worked with were fantastic and I didn't I didn't feel uncomfortable. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Greg has talked about or this quote was attributed

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Speaker 1: to him or something like it. Um, Mike sure said

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Speaker 1: that that Greg talked about wanting to create a writer's

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Speaker 1: room that was like the X Men, right, so that

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Speaker 1: not everybody had a special skill that was the same. So, Um,

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Speaker 1: what I have been told is and let's see if

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Speaker 1: you agree with that. Lee and Jean Um were very

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Speaker 1: good at the cringe comedy, that Mike was more optimistic,

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Speaker 1: that Mendy was more absurdist, but also tied into um

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Speaker 1: some of the love stuff. Paul was very into Michael's

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Speaker 1: worst instincts Um. And then you, I was told one

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Speaker 1: you were very into Pam and sort of the beating

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Speaker 1: heart of the show. And then Greg wasn't sure about that.

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Speaker 1: He said, you were very interested in Michael's stories and

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Speaker 1: finding the complexity there. What's funny is that the episode

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Speaker 1: that was reference for both of those two things from

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Speaker 1: Mike sure and from Greg was the same episode where

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Speaker 1: the bird dies. Whereas Greg saw that as being about

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Speaker 1: Michael and him having to find a way to deal

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Speaker 1: with it, and Mike saw that as about Pam and

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Speaker 1: Pam making the decision to facilitate the funeral for Michael.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Interesting that they referenced the same episode

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Speaker 1: but came up with two different responses. Do you feel like,

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Speaker 1: what was your superpower? What interested you? What's a mate

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Speaker 1: that is fast nating? And I can see how they

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Speaker 1: both could say that. What's interesting to me is that

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Speaker 1: for me, it's understanding the humanity of a person and

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Speaker 1: the levels of a person and the psychology of a person.

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Speaker 1: To me, it was very much Michael that you know,

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Speaker 1: it was not the Pam element um in that I

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Speaker 1: love Pam and Michael's connection. I love their relationship, But

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Speaker 1: for me, it was steering Michael through that sort of

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Speaker 1: the stages of grief. I never got to write internal

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Speaker 1: stories where something kind of was happening to the insides

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Speaker 1: of a character. And I was like, this is a

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Speaker 1: story on a network television show that is an internal

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Speaker 1: story where the character that it's happening to is not

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Speaker 1: even aware of it. Like I was, like, my brain

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Speaker 1: was exploding. So I kind of feel like they're both

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Speaker 1: They're both right in a way where it's like but

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Speaker 1: with that particular episode was Michael. I had this moment

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Speaker 1: with Steve when I was leaving the show and I

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Speaker 1: told him, Um, it was very, very difficult decision. Was

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Speaker 1: the best job I ever had, by far, but I

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Speaker 1: was starting to feel like I wanted to write some

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Speaker 1: of my own stuff, and and I told Greg and

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Speaker 1: then I told Steve, and you know, I'm sad. I'm

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Speaker 1: really upset. I mean it was like the best opportunity

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Speaker 1: of my life. And he said, I think this is

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Speaker 1: going to be difficult for you. I said, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know why I could tell something he was saying

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Speaker 1: something else, and he said, because I think you work

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Speaker 1: out a lot of your own stuff through my character.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, Michael Scott thinks I'm Michael Scott. I mean

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Speaker 1: he meant it. He didn't mean it as a bad thing,

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Speaker 1: but he just even just earnest and genuine in it.

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Speaker 1: And like I was like, why can't I be Pam?

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Speaker 1: Why can't I be Anu? Why can't it be Phyllis?

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Speaker 1: Why can't I'll no, But I mean I endure, I endore.

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Speaker 1: Michael said, He's not wrong. There are moments in my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm very intrigued with his character. But there are also

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Speaker 1: moments in my life where I feel Michael Scotty and

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Speaker 1: I think everyone does. But I thought that was unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: That is so amazing, and and there's a sweetness to it.

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Speaker 1: Because I've told some people that and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but Michael, you love Michael, and you know he's he's

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Speaker 1: connected and he loves But like I immediately went to

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Speaker 1: the most ridiculous signs of Michael, Like, there was a

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Speaker 1: moment after it where I thought of him, where I

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Speaker 1: was trying. I had to type up an email that

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Speaker 1: I was gonna have to send as soon as I

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Speaker 1: got home. I was, oh, God, this is terrible to stay.

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Speaker 1: I was on side. I was at a stoplight and

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Speaker 1: I had my computer open, and I was like typing,

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Speaker 1: because if you have finished typing it the second I

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Speaker 1: got home, I was going to send it. And I

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Speaker 1: just imagined like a cop pulling me over with my laptop.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the drivers I'm driving and I've got my

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Speaker 1: laptop open, and he's like, ma'am you know, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not texting. I'm not texting, I'm emailing. There are

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Speaker 1: definitely moments where I'm like, I think, maybe I am.

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Speaker 1: But that's so amazing degree on a long journey there

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Speaker 1: to that. But uh yeah. But I'm fascinated with what

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Speaker 1: makes people tick and the layers underneath people. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like writing for me is about connecting. I think

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Speaker 1: there's so many things that people think are just themselves,

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Speaker 1: and when you see it on screen, you feel like

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Speaker 1: kind of comforted forgetting. Maybe that's just me as Michael

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Speaker 1: scotten me. You're just comforted that other people are like

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Speaker 1: that too. So the stuff inside that you don't get

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Speaker 1: to see is what I like to try to bring

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Speaker 1: out or show, even if they're not saying it's happening.

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Speaker 1: There's something that came up and talking with Greg that

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Speaker 1: I did not know. Um, it was very clear Greg

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Speaker 1: wanted a collaboration, and he wanted the lines between the

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Speaker 1: writers and the actors to be blurred, and he wanted

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Speaker 1: it to be much more collaborative. I was aware that

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Speaker 1: was happening, and I was aware that it felt very

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Speaker 1: different than any other show. But I think for me

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Speaker 1: it was always about really about the writers. That it

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Speaker 1: was about the writers were acting, and the writers had

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Speaker 1: sort of an unfettered access to set. Um. Greg told

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Speaker 1: me that his idea was not that his idea was

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Speaker 1: to blur the lines between the writers and the actors

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Speaker 1: because he felt that in this new genre the laughs

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Speaker 1: were about behavior, that there was there was something for

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Speaker 1: him that he needed the actors, for the writers to

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Speaker 1: see the actors because behavior was way more important in

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Speaker 1: this kind of a show than in traditional That's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that. I don't think I ever sort

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Speaker 1: of felt it as that was what was happening, like

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Speaker 1: kind of what you're saying. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: anytime you try to part of me just thinks that

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Speaker 1: blurring the lines just makes it a happier environment. Because

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Speaker 1: it always felt like the writers were on the shows

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Speaker 1: I worked on, the writers were off, and then the

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Speaker 1: actors were off, and there was absolutely no crossover, and

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Speaker 1: you didn't feel like you were part of a family

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Speaker 1: together with each other like they'll be. There are shows

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Speaker 1: where I didn't even go down to the set. You know,

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Speaker 1: you'd never saw the show. You know, you never saw

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Speaker 1: the actors act, And I just think it's always better

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Speaker 1: if you kind of mush the two together. I think

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Speaker 1: that it's kind of starting to create a character and

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Speaker 1: then working with the actor to see what they do

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Speaker 1: with it and how they make it. There's that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing I feel like, And then when you have

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Speaker 1: a specific story about a specific character going down and

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Speaker 1: kind of getting to know them enough so that you

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Speaker 1: can infuse it so much with the goodness and the

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Speaker 1: specificity of you guys is such a big thing. I

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Speaker 1: guess I never really thought of it exactly that way

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Speaker 1: what he's saying, but I I do think that if

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Speaker 1: you think about this show being really needing to be real,

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Speaker 1: imagining the worst case of what would have happened if

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Speaker 1: if what Greg was saying wasn't true, is that writers

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Speaker 1: would be in a room coming up with these weedy

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Speaker 1: one liners that were not based at all in what

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Speaker 1: a human being would do and the specific human being.

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Speaker 1: So that if you go down and to the set

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Speaker 1: down whatever we were a couple of minutes stories of

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Speaker 1: like and then work with them and and more listen

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Speaker 1: to them and see how they would get from point

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Speaker 1: A to point B in a realistic way, it'll feel

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Speaker 1: more real and more rich. Then if you're just like,

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Speaker 1: ha ha, this is a funny joke, you're like the

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Speaker 1: worst kind of writing where you're like, here's a funny joke,

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Speaker 1: and we'll just give this joke to somebody, you know,

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Speaker 1: without really taking into consideration, but packing live. Um, why

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Speaker 1: was writing the character so real so important for me?

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Speaker 1: Because it was a mockumentary. I've found that a lot

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Speaker 1: of the a lot of discussions we'd have we're about

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Speaker 1: comedy versus reality, So we had these discussions a lot.

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Speaker 1: I think we had them even camera wise. Um, we

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Speaker 1: also had a lot of moments we were talking about

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Speaker 1: Michael and Jan unbelievable relationship, so funny when once we

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Speaker 1: got to the point where he seemed like he was

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Speaker 1: almost evolving past her. That moment we had so many

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Speaker 1: fights in the room because we and the fights seemed

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Speaker 1: to be comedy versus mockumentary, but like reality versus comedy.

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Speaker 1: It felt to me like if we were doing a

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Speaker 1: mockumentary documentary, if we're leaning into that, we would want

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Speaker 1: this character of Michael Scott to keep growing. If we're

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Speaker 1: just thinking with our comedy glasses on, Jane is Jan

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Speaker 1: and Michael are hilarious, right, So there's this tension of

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Speaker 1: should we keep him stuck in this relationship because we

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Speaker 1: can mind it for ridiculous humor, or should we evolve him?

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Speaker 1: So I always lean to the point of evolving. I

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Speaker 1: just start as a viewer with that particular show, disconnecting

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Speaker 1: a little if I feel that somebody is stuck in

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Speaker 1: a thing that would not be stuck in real life,

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Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? And I think the

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Speaker 1: audience feels that too, they feel like they're being jerked around,

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Speaker 1: And then I think you have it more with Michael

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Speaker 1: and with the Jim and Pam. We had those discussions

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Speaker 1: most with those characters. Everybody, we wanted to evolve or

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Speaker 1: see different shades of or have them go through journey.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes they go forward, sometimes they go backwards, but

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Speaker 1: we'd want to see some amount of movement. But specifically,

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Speaker 1: the biggest fights were even Michael's evolution because it was

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Speaker 1: so central to what we were seeing, and also with

428
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam. So I remember those fights. I remember,

429
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: and I remember being like, oh no, we need to

430
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: at some point, we can't break It felt fake to

431
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: break Jim and Pam up once. Once. It was those

432
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: characters set up by Greg and the early writers and

433
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: then acted by John and Jenna in such a ridiculously

434
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: beautiful way. I didn't believe that the threats that we

435
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 1: were talking about that could come in to keep them

436
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: apart so that we could kind of have more of

437
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: that juice. It just didn't. Yeah, So I um, I've

438
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: talked to a few people about this, just about comedy too,

439
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 1: And I had this director that I worked with, and

440
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: he was obsessed with the notion that comedy exists off

441
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: of the beat. But Greg said something that you were

442
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: just talking about which is kind of the same idea. Actually,

443
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: you guys both said it in different ways, but about

444
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: Pam and Jim, that there becomes an inevitability. And so

445
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: what Greg said was the choice ultimately was get him together.

446
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: Actually sooner than anyone thinks, right, so suddenly, like it

447
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: happens sort of in an instant, so fast on one

448
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: second you think he's going to be the manager at

449
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: another branch, and then one second later it's do you

450
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: want to go on a date? And then they're off

451
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: and rolling. That's so pure Greg. He's such a genius.

452
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: And what I love is he did that multiple times.

453
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: He would we would come up with an idea or something,

454
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: and he would advance it to to have that surprise factor.

455
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: And what I loved about him was that he had

456
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: the confidence and the skills clearly obviously to take that

457
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: risk of doing something earlier than what was expected and

458
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: knowing that we would be able to deal with the

459
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: fallout of like together. You know, um and I can't

460
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: quite remember. I just can't remember. There was a season

461
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: that we ended on a cliffhanger. We wrote ourselves a

462
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: little bit into a corner and then we're just like,

463
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, like never point guess what, we have

464
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: eight weeks after this to figure it out. But I

465
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: love that because it's daring and it's brave and it's

466
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: not like waiting till the last second and waiting till

467
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: it all has it planned out. So there's like a

468
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: thrill in terms of being a writer and story when

469
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: you have Jim and Pam get together before you think,

470
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: then you have to deal with all the repercussions of

471
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: that quicker and it's scary, but that's there's a thrill

472
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: about that. It's exciting. Right, I'm gonna go back a second,

473
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: because you were so articulate in your idea of of

474
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: truth and comedy that no one has explained to me before.

475
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: I know that there was a discussion about this and

476
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: way way less significant then you know how long Michael

477
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: should stay with jan or the Jim and Pam thing.

478
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: But when Dwight plays a prank on Holly and tells

479
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: her that Kevin is slow, and everyone was like, we

480
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: gotta keep this going, we gotta keep this going. But

481
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: that actually you sort of saying that story for that

482
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: joke too. That was my joke ahead, which I think

483
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: you'll find you'll appreciate well. But just my point was

484
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: that at a certain point in terms of truth versus comedy, like,

485
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: at what point does it become unbelievable that Holly doesn't

486
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: really know the truth. So that that just occurred to

487
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: me as you were talking, like oh, I get that, yeah,

488
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 1: that you're trying to find It ended up pretty quickly.

489
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: But it's because there's a reality and a believability and

490
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: the audience feels it. I feel like it's not all

491
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: day is that they know exactly what it is. But

492
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: I feel like there are certain things about that show

493
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: particular that if you went in a different direction, it

494
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: can distance the audience. I mean one of the classic

495
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: things is that you know, if hair starts looking too

496
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: good and makeup and wardrobe and the lights look too beautiful,

497
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: it's like you're starting to feel a distance between these people.

498
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: So I feel like there was a reality that you

499
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: wanted to keep. Um just thinking about that joke, h

500
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: the backstory to that, there was a point in the

501
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: show where I think it was coming from like Greg

502
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: just feeling like, you know, probably doing twenty eight episodes

503
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 1: of season, but it was like we're getting lazy, We're

504
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: getting lazy. We we know this about this character. We

505
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: know this about this character. What else do we know

506
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: about this character? So we did it for many, many

507
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: of the characters. I think all of them probably, but

508
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: I was specifically remember we were like, what do we

509
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: know about Kevin? We know that he likes to snack,

510
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: we know that he's maybe not the brightest accountant that

511
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: we have. Right, So it's like, if we're lazy, go

512
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: to these things too often? Right, So you know, in

513
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: the ven diagram of all the things we know about

514
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: Kevin or whatever, what are some more things like does

515
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: he like opera? Would that makes sense for though we

516
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: know about Kevin? I mean literally we did this for

517
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: multiple characters. But this was the moment that I remember

518
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: being in there, right when I was about to go

519
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: off and write a script. And so I went off.

520
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: In my interpretation of that was just to take one

521
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: of those two things to blow it up. Like I

522
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: I did definitely try to reach deeper, because he was

523
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: saying like, go bigger, go deeper, find more. So now

524
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: I took it all the way to the part where

525
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: it was like, yeah, Kevin is like, you know, mentally slow,

526
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: and there's a real there's a real issue here, and

527
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: that's Holly's interpretation of it. And when I did it,

528
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: I think I did it as a joke. It definitely

529
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: was one joke in the script. It might have been two.

530
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: And then I brought it back to the room and

531
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: they're like, no, no, no, we're doing more, more and more.

532
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: So we expanded it. But I just I was a

533
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: little bit delighted its last, embarrassed about the fact that

534
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: my goal was to find something different. I just doubled

535
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: down on maybe not right. Well, I don't know. It

536
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: always made me laugh. It always made me laugh. Um,

537
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: was there anything else that was specific or unique? Do

538
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: you remember about this writing room? Writer's room? It was

539
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: the best writer's room I've ever been in. Uh, and

540
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: I feel like it will be the best writer's room

541
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: I'm ever in. I think the writers were exceptionally talented,

542
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: and Greg was saying that everybody had their own super strength,

543
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: but everybody was good at story and comedy and and motion.

544
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: I felt that certain people, yeah, we're gifts, more gifts,

545
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: more gifted in certain areas. But I've worked on staffs

546
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: where one person was story, one person was comedy. There

547
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: was a little bit more like that, and I felt

548
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: like this staff everybody had the ability to do everything,

549
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: and the fact that everybody cared so much. There was

550
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: an enormous discussion. I don't know if anybody talked about

551
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: it between whether the proposal should have sound or no sound.

552
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: There were people on both sides. It was about fifty fifty.

553
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 1: It was the craziest discussion. It was whether or not.

554
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: When we saw Jim proposed to Pam we should have

555
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: sound and hear what he's saying, or just see the

556
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: visual of him in the rain getting on one knee,

557
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: and I found that that really explained the writer's room.

558
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: Everybody cared so much. There was one moment where Greg

559
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: was getting into his car, you know, after the discussion

560
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: had gone on for a month and we were about to,

561
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, have to settle on it, where I was

562
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: coming from a trailer and he was getting into his

563
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: car and I said Greg, and he like turned and

564
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: he was like kind of trapped between his car door

565
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: in his car, and I was like, did you make

566
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: did you decide yeah it was sound or no sound,

567
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: And he's like, no, no, I haven't, I haven't. It

568
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: was literally a horror film stalking him to find out

569
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: if the decision had been made. Um, we argued passionately,

570
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: and it's just because everybody cared. And I think that, um,

571
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: a lot of it was just for the passion with

572
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: which the passion everybody had for telling the story. I

573
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: can talk a little bit about the sound. No sound

574
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: if you want to hear it, but you might hear

575
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: it from everybody else. Go ahead. UM, So that was

576
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: actually a decision a little bit that I feel like

577
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: came down to another discussion that we had a lot

578
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: of times in the room, which was kind of being

579
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: more documentary and a little bit more real and a

580
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: little bit more subtle and being a little bit more

581
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: like a comedy or a show. So uh, basically, the

582
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: side that wanted to hear Jim's words were like, you've

583
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: been waiting forever to hear him propose to Pam. Why

584
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: would you take that moment away from people and not

585
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: hear his actual words. It's like they've been waiting for it.

586
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: You want to give them what they've been waiting for.

587
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: Just might be slightly more of a comedy show kind

588
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: of thing with a documentary mockumentary thing. It was a

589
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: little bit more of like, God, it's so beautiful and

590
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: subtle and to be across the street and I have

591
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: to reach for it because he would turn his mic

592
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: off in this moment, it's a big moment. And once

593
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: you see him down on one knee, we know what

594
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: he's saying. And then actually filling in the blank is

595
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: more beautiful. We went back and forth about this for

596
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: so long. At one point, um Greg asked me to

597
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: send in my pros and cons list, like sounded, no sound,

598
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: And then I remember I was in his office a

599
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: little bit later. We didn't still had made a decision,

600
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: and I saw a list of people who wanted sound

601
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: and a list of people who wanted no sound, and

602
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: his wife and two kids was on one side of

603
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: the list and two other kids or his wife and

604
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: one kids on Once I listened to other kids. His

605
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: family was split down the middle. So he was interviewing

606
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: everybody and saying what should we do? What should we do?

607
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: Um So there was a moment he was at the

608
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: sound mix we were he had to make the decision,

609
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: like this is the moment, and he's like, is there

610
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: anybody we haven't asked? Is there anybody we haven't asked?

611
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, yeah, the security guard is there,

612
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: you know security guard whose name I can't quite remember him. Sorry,

613
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: but I go and I get the security guard and

614
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: it occurs to me during my walk to the office

615
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: that he's never seen the office. The lovely, lovely man

616
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: protected us all. So I'm like, okay, cool. So now

617
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 1: we've just got a very objective person. So I show

618
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: him the scene without sound, and then I show him

619
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: the scene with sound, and I say, what did you prefer?

620
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: And he said I liked the second one. And I

621
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: said why He said, oh, because I could hear it. Okay, Greg,

622
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: he said he like the second one because he could

623
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: hear it. So that was anyway, that wasn't what how

624
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: the decision was made, but that was our last person

625
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: weighing in, and then you know, it ended up airing

626
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: with sound. But um, but it was the debate about

627
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: whether or not it should be sound or no sound

628
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: was the writer's room. To me, it was everybody incredibly

629
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: passionate about something that we had worked towards, UM and

630
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: just we've we cared. Well. It's fascinating to me. Um,

631
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: when Steve left and Pam goes to say goodbye, there's

632
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: no sound. You know, it's weird. I saw it. I

633
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: loved it. I just got chills when you even just

634
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: described it because it's it's such a beautiful moment and

635
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if it speaks to there's a secret

636
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: dynamic between Pam and Michael that we just can't be

637
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: privy to. I don't know, but it's a similar kind

638
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: of moment, right, I mean, it's like, maybe, do you

639
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: think it's possible that because the other one involved Jim

640
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: and Pam and there were so many people like rooting

641
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: for that relationship and kind of squeeking or whatever about

642
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: them that you couldn't take that moment away from them.

643
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: But for Pam and Michael, who have an incredibly special

644
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: dynamic too, it's not a like romantic thing. So it's

645
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: not like fans have been shipping them for four years

646
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: and we can do that. I don't know. I really

647
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: don't know because I don't know. But it's it's interesting

648
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: because what you say is how people fill it in

649
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: that moment when Michael leaves. You can't write it. It's

650
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: written with Pam telling you what was said, but did

651
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: she include every detail? And what she says is beautiful,

652
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: but you don't I don't know. It's it's so interesting.

653
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: I like when you so, I on the staff, like

654
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: when you have to fill in the blanks more. I

655
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: think when in Casino night we were we had another

656
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: huge fight on staff about, you know, how to portray something,

657
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 1: whether to make Jim and Pam in the parking lot

658
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: more you know, dirty or not. And I was always

659
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: I didn't want to miss everything. I just wanted to

660
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: be late to the party, or find the shadow of

661
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: them and to hear them talking, to not see it

662
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: the cleanest, to not be very clean in terms of

663
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: the presentation. I always wanted to reach, because I think

664
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: reaching and filling the blanks is more. But I was

665
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: probably on one end of the spectrum in that room

666
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: with those things. Well, Greg brought up both of those moments,

667
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: and I think, and I'm certainly not coming down on

668
00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: one side or the other. I think that I would

669
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: tend to agree with you that I loved that moment

670
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: when Michael leaves. I think it's perfect. But it's interesting

671
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: what Greg said in that moment in the parking lot. Specifically,

672
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: he said, these are really skilled actors and you can

673
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: see a lot in their faces, and so in this moment,

674
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: we need to see their face. Oh, that's brilliant and

675
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. Like I understand that,

676
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: I completely get that. There was an interesting discussion and

677
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: it wasn't um that came up that I forgot to

678
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: mention when we were talking about sounds no sound and

679
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: I was talking to my dad about offensive and defensive

680
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: decision making. I mean, we were just digging deep in

681
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: this sound really sounds like they're digging deep. And what

682
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: I learned too, and this is where I know that

683
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm on the super kind of weirdo end of

684
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: the spectrum, is that with offensive, you just do what's

685
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: your gut instinct and what's your best thing that you

686
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: think you should do, and you don't worry about anything

687
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: else any other factors. With defensive, that I think is

688
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: an important ing, but I don't pay attention to it enough.

689
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: Is what do the fans want? What will feel satisfying?

690
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: Will I regret? You just kind of go outside? Do

691
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: you know what I mean to think about you think

692
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: about the audience a little bit more so in terms

693
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: of the moment, specifically for Jim and Pam. Are we

694
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: thinking what do we want to do kind of artistically,

695
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: show wise, character wise, or are we thinking what do

696
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: people want? You joined the staff in season two when

697
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,919
Speaker 1: the show was still well, we didn't know how many

698
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: we were gonna do. Um, And so the question really

699
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: is what factors do you think helped to make the show?

700
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: From the beginning of season two getting a six episode order,

701
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: two by the end, completing a full twenty two episode season,

702
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: and then immediately getting a third season. Were there any

703
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 1: factors that you can point to for what was happening?

704
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it, and I've forgotten sort

705
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: of the behind the scenes people fighting for it because

706
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: I feel like Ben Silverman, a lot of people just

707
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: fought very hard for things that I wasn't privy too.

708
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: I was just coming on to try and you know, right,

709
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: but I know that there are a lot of people

710
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: fighting very hard for the show. Um. I think a

711
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: couple of things. I think one was just reattacking Correll's

712
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: character and just giving it more dimensions, just giving it

713
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: more of a three and sixty degree feel. I think.

714
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: I think, Um, well, there was another sort of significant

715
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: thing that happened, which I don't expect you to remember,

716
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: but iTunes launch. Yes, yes, so, um, I remember going

717
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: and getting a computer around that time and seeing the

718
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: Apple Store just had the office everywhere. So yeah, so

719
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: iTunes launching huge. Yeah, so then people could just you know,

720
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: download it and watch it. And then it started to

721
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: feel like people were watching it, Like I think b

722
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: J had this thing he said that it felt like

723
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: it was an inside joke with our fans, like like

724
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: like we didn't know that a lot of a ton

725
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: of people were watching it. We just kept meeting some

726
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: people who were fans and they were going crazy for it.

727
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: So I don't know if the numbers were necessarily reflected

728
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: right away. And I also remember Jenny Tan from Office

729
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 1: Tally and I remember Jenna was like on my Space

730
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: talking to fans. So I think the communication with the

731
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: fans and and other ways for people to watch the show.

732
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: And I also think deleted scenes started really helping us too,

733
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: is that people were getting bonus material and they were

734
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 1: really excited about that. And I don't know when quite

735
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: that was, if that was a little bit later or Yeah.

736
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: It's this whole sort of wave of technology that was

737
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: kids meant for the show. That people have been able

738
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: to use the new technology that existed in the moment

739
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: sort of at the perfect time for the office. Yeah. Yeah,

740
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: I remember us going on office tally at the end

741
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: of every episode to see like what the fans thought.

742
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: That was just really like live time, kind of like

743
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 1: reviews of the show by the people who watched it,

744
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: and it was just fascinating. How much did that influence

745
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 1: the writers its debt? We definitely felt it, I don't think,

746
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: but you should ask other people because I don't remember.

747
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: I don't remember it ever affecting any like storylines or changes,

748
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: but I think that it was a barometer for certain things.

749
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: You know, if we were slowing down Pam and Jim

750
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, I like the fact that it's slow,

751
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: we would, you know, like we we might not feel

752
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: the pressure of it as much. So I feel like

753
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: there were little things like that, But it was never like, oh,

754
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 1: they want this, so we have to give it to them,

755
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? But there was a

756
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 1: moment and you should you have to confirm this. Um.

757
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: We would have little debates in the room and then

758
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: I remember we would read the fans and every once

759
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: in a while the fans would comment on something that we,

760
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, like should we do proposal sound or no sound?

761
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: And then fans would day like someone would be like

762
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: I wish there was no sound or which would be

763
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: weird because like, how would they even know. But there

764
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: was one little debate and I cannot remember what it was,

765
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: but it was small. It was a small debate, but

766
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: it was passionate as most things, and I think that

767
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: Lee was on one side of the debate and I

768
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: was on the other side of the debate. And after

769
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: the episode aired, somebody on Office Telly said something that

770
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: was just, you know, totally agreeing with like how Lee

771
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: felt and not agreeing at all with what I felt.

772
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: And I was like, that's a bump or whatever. A

773
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: few weeks or months later, I found out that Lee

774
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: was that person he wrote into Office tallion or a

775
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: fake name, just writing it. This was like the original

776
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: burner accounts existed in the Office writers throw you just

777
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: confirmed this with Lee, But I'm sure he did it.

778
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: I think he was just doing it to give me ship,

779
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: because like he disagreed with me, and he's like, look,

780
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: even the fans dis agree with you. I was like, wait,

781
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,959
Speaker 1: what fun? This is not cool? He said. I really

782
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: thought people like the drug desting episode, did anyone like

783
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: you or there's just you guys, it was like, is

784
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: anybody here not in the writer's room? Is azing? I

785
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 1: was aware. I mean as an actor, I typically chose

786
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: to not read it because because one, it's just not

787
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: it's just not helpful. And too it's the old thing

788
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: where if fifty people say nice things about you and

789
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: then one that we got that, then it's like, I

790
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: don't know, that's my comedy writerness or my jewishness, although

791
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. But yeah, people say

792
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: something nice and one person is something wrong. It's like,

793
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: what is that? Why did they say that? That must

794
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: be true? I don't know. Immediately forget all the other ones. Yeah. Um,

795
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: By the way, this our conversation today, which I think

796
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: is going really really well, so I realized I can

797
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: take a pause. Here are people in the booth and

798
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: nobody will ever know. I like, no, but I like

799
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: keeping our conversation going. Tell you a story about someone

800
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: who didn't like the office that I had this funny

801
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: exchange I was. I was on a plane early on

802
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: season three or four, had a dunder Mifflin sweatshirts getting

803
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: off the plane where the pilot was saying thank you

804
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: for flying, and he was an older man. I saw

805
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: my dunder Mifflin sweatshirt. He's like, what is that? What

806
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: is that? And I said dunder Mifflin. I was like, oh,

807
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: it's dunder Mifflin. He's like, I know what that is.

808
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: It's the Office. And I like something in his tone

809
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: and I didn't didn't be like, yeah, I'm working on

810
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: is my favorite however, I love it. He's like, I

811
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: don't like that show. I was just like, and he's

812
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: just venting. By the way, there's people stacking up behind

813
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: me trying to exit the plane. He goes, I'm so

814
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: stressed on a day to day basis. Everything stresses me out.

815
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: Everybody I work with stresses me out. I don't want

816
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 1: to come home and feel that people are stressed out

817
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: about where they work, like is blood pressure was like

818
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: going through the room and and I was like, Okay,

819
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: have a good day. And I was so grateful that

820
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: he had landed. The plane got really tense, and I

821
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: for everybody who's loved it, I mean I have. I

822
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: think the Office has got more fans than anything. I

823
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: just want to go talk to University of Michigan. And

824
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 1: I had a line of people afterwards that were just

825
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: like a hundred people who just wanted to say what

826
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: the show meant to them and how excited they were. Anyway,

827
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: that always sticks in my brain. If this guy just

828
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: seeing the words dunder Mifflin, his blood pressure went off

829
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: because he doesn't like uncomfortable humor, he doesn't like crane humor,

830
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: and he must have seen particularly uncomfortable episode where people

831
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: were frustrated. Right well, I mean one of the things

832
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: that I've always said was that it has a subversive

833
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: quality that I think appeals potentially to younger people. I

834
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: had a conversation with my parents very similar to to

835
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: your pilot story where they were talking about their friends

836
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: whodn't who didn't like It's just too mean and Michael's

837
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: God is just too mean? And here was my answer.

838
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 1: My answer was, you know, what's the the actual number

839
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: one show in television at that time was um, you

840
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: know through all the demographic however, all you are was

841
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 1: c s I this is true, I said, so, mom,

842
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: this is what you should should say to them, is

843
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: it's way more comfortable for you to watch which every

844
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: episode opened with a half naked dead woman or teenager

845
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: lying in the desert and to hear somebody say something

846
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: potentially a little uncomfortable or maybe hits a little too

847
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: close to think long and hard about that challenge. That yeah,

848
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: it's amazing. All right. That is it for now, guys.

849
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: But that is just the tip of the iceberg with Jen,

850
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: just the tip. We didn't even get to the fact

851
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: that she went on to run our show with Paul

852
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: Lieberstein in season five. So we will have a lot

853
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: more to talk about with Jen in a future episode.

854
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: In the meantime, thank you all for listening, and let's

855
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: let's take a page out of Jen's book this week,

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Speaker 1: all right and try to laugh just a little bit more.

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00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week. The Office. Deep Dive is

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00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner alongside our

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00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,

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00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor

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00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is

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00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by

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00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by

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00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: seth Olandsky h