Speaker 1: When I was in high school, we were headed to
Speaker 1: the state championship in volleyball, and our coach had a
Speaker 1: great idea to have the football coach kind of come
Speaker 1: and pump us up. And he was a famous high
Speaker 1: school football coach, Graham Hickson Honey, and we were so
Speaker 1: excited to hear from him. And I'll never forget he
Speaker 1: walks in, he looks at all of us, and he says,
Speaker 1: y'all are not the Woodward Academy women's volleyball team. You
Speaker 1: are the Woodward Academy volleyball team. He said, you don't
Speaker 1: have last names on your jersey for a reason. We
Speaker 1: are one team, Woodward Academy. And the football team and
Speaker 1: the swim team and the golf team. Everybody's behind you.
Speaker 1: That is how I phil today about the people that
Speaker 1: again have stopped everything going on in their world to
Speaker 1: come meet with us to talk about the Long Island
Speaker 1: serial killer. And I appreciate every one of them. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get right to Sergeant Joseph Jackaloney. He worked
Speaker 1: cold cases with NYPD, He worked at the Homicide School.
Speaker 1: He received the Medal of Valor. And when I tell y'all,
Speaker 1: he wrote the book literally he wrote the book on
Speaker 1: cold cases and then he followed up with the second
Speaker 1: book on criminal investigation, so he has the cold case
Speaker 1: handbook and the criminal investigation function. So, Sergeant, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go right to you, what do you think is
Speaker 1: next for this investigation? The next steps?
Speaker 2: I think we have to find out who our other
Speaker 2: identified victims are, right, So we have Peaches and we
Speaker 2: have Asian male and along with Peaches is we know
Speaker 2: as her daughter Jane baby Dough that they referred to
Speaker 2: or as And it's important that we identify these individuals
Speaker 2: because if law enforcement wants to solve the case, you
Speaker 2: have to start off with who your victim is, so
Speaker 2: that you can go back and try to piece together
Speaker 2: what was going on in that person's life, who they
Speaker 2: were hanging out with, what they were doing, and of
Speaker 2: course maybe somebody remembers something back then, because when you
Speaker 2: put a face to a name, then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: a lot of things come back to the surface.
Speaker 1: Do you see this task force being even larger than
Speaker 1: we think that it is.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think the task force grows because as this
Speaker 2: investigation starts barreling forwards, So we have at least on
Speaker 2: the table I think you have the fourth victim, Maureen
Speaker 2: Brainett Barnes will be added to the docket, and then
Speaker 2: you have to look at the other six or seven
Speaker 2: individuals out there that were found along Gilgo, Manorville, and
Speaker 2: Henstead Lake State Park. I name all those locations because unfortunately,
Speaker 2: pieces of them, of these victims were found in all
Speaker 2: of those locations, so they're all tied into Gilgo some
Speaker 2: one way or another. And I think Peaches is up
Speaker 2: next in regard to it, and I believe, and I
Speaker 2: think most of the people in the panel believe that
Speaker 2: they already know who she is because they kind of
Speaker 2: I think the Mobile Police Department kind of might have
Speaker 2: made a mistake by putting out saying the FBI is
Speaker 2: looking for help to try to identify this family member
Speaker 2: and here's a tattoo. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think
Speaker 2: that was a I think that might have been.
Speaker 3: An oops moment. But that was back in October.
Speaker 2: So I think by now they've identified Peaches, which is important.
Speaker 1: It is important, and I think they've identified her and
Speaker 1: the Asian male, and I think we'll be hearing very
Speaker 1: soon about both of those victims. Lisa Rabekov, holigraph expert
Speaker 1: private investigator with a case of this magnitude, How do
Speaker 1: you think private investigators could possibly help this task force?
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking specifically interviews with sex workers, possibly internet searches,
Speaker 1: government records.
Speaker 4: What do you think, Well, you just named three out
Speaker 4: of a couple of things that are on my list here,
Speaker 4: so you're definitely ahead of the ball. I think that
Speaker 4: the resources that the task force has now are excellent,
Speaker 4: and especially considering the communication and efforts that are being
Speaker 4: done jurisdictionally across the board and the open lines of communication.
Speaker 4: But I do think that if there are individuals that
Speaker 4: are licensed professionals that do have a skill set, that
Speaker 4: the task Force could be reaching out to them, or
Speaker 4: these individuals could be reaching out to the task Force
Speaker 4: to donate their time and services, because I do feel
Speaker 4: that interviewing the sex workers in the region area, possibly
Speaker 4: even reinterviewing the ones that have already been interviewed, just
Speaker 4: for a second set of eyes, is beneficial. As for searches,
Speaker 4: As a licensed private investigator in any jurisdiction, we are
Speaker 4: limited to what we are able to get our fingertips
Speaker 4: on and what we are allowed to have access to
Speaker 4: within our license. There could possibly be the idea of
Speaker 4: again the open lines of communication with pis to provide
Speaker 4: their resources in time to law enforcement to possibly save
Speaker 4: resources and allocated towards other aspects of the investigation. I
Speaker 4: know for myself, I've done a little bit of digging
Speaker 4: all through public record researches on the basis of properties
Speaker 4: in South Carolina, research here in New York pertaining to
Speaker 4: the properties here. But again there's information that is accessible
Speaker 4: to the public, and I think the public does need
Speaker 4: to be aware that just because we have licenses to
Speaker 4: conduct certain investigations and to conduct searches, that there has
Speaker 4: to be permissible purposes.
Speaker 5: And that's the.
Speaker 4: Fine line between being a licensed investigator and or working
Speaker 4: on a task force through a law enforcement agency versus
Speaker 4: being a member of the general public just wanting to
Speaker 4: look around.
Speaker 1: Excellent, And I like the point about volunteer their time
Speaker 1: and talent. Sometimes that could be the difference in you know,
Speaker 1: getting a chance to look at something and not because
Speaker 1: sometimes your budget doesn't cover what you're needing to do
Speaker 1: on the case in the first place, much less bring
Speaker 1: other people in. Mike Mo Morpord y'all know him as
Speaker 1: the host of Criminology podcast, How are you Mac? I
Speaker 1: am great, but I'm like everybody else. My mind just
Speaker 1: keeps clicking with this Long Island serial killer thing because
Speaker 1: it's like information comes every day for us. But when
Speaker 1: I think about you, what comes to my mind is
Speaker 1: I want to know if you're seeing from your listeners
Speaker 1: as far as the things that they're interested in on
Speaker 1: this case, what are you noticing?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 6: I think everybody is sort of looking for the next
Speaker 6: leg to sprout, because this case just seems to sprout
Speaker 6: more legs. There's more locations, there's possible victims. A lot
Speaker 6: of people want to know if there's any way that
Speaker 6: he's connected to those Atlantic City victims. I think we
Speaker 6: all probably agree that they're very well, maybe more victims
Speaker 6: if he's out there. He's got these gaps time and
Speaker 6: sometimes killers do stop for a time, but sometimes they don't,
Speaker 6: and there are some stretches of time where it's not
Speaker 6: known exactly who is doing it until those blanks get
Speaker 6: filled in. That's the thing I'm seeing is people just
Speaker 6: want to see how many more people and how many
Speaker 6: lives has he taken, and where are they and where
Speaker 6: what's going to be the next headline to pop up?
Speaker 3: In this case.
Speaker 1: Think you're right. The next headline is coming, and I
Speaker 1: think there's going to be one after the other after
Speaker 1: the other to try to understand and dissect. Now, Doctor
Speaker 1: Joni Johnston, forensic psychologists, private investigator, author of serial Killers
Speaker 1: one oh one questions true crime fans ask. You have
Speaker 1: said from day one that there's no way if the
Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer is Rex that he started killing
Speaker 1: in his forties. We know now from the Fire Island
Speaker 1: Jane Doe being identified that she went missing in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety six, so that would put him right in that
Speaker 1: thirty something early thirty age bracket that gives us fifteen
Speaker 1: years before the gill Go four. Just tell us what
Speaker 1: those numbers mean to you.
Speaker 7: Well, those numbers are pretty frightening to me when I
Speaker 7: think about the possibility of the number of victims that
Speaker 7: could be out there, and you're absolutely right it is.
Speaker 7: I think the average age that a serial killer starts
Speaker 7: killing is around twenty eight and I think in nineteen
Speaker 7: ninety six he would have been around twenty seven twenty
Speaker 7: eight years old, So that really does line up with
Speaker 7: the average. And then you think about, as you pointed out,
Speaker 7: do you think about the fact that you know, you
Speaker 7: fast forward thirteen years, fifteen years, and you think, you know,
Speaker 7: the younger he is, I think, the more likely there
Speaker 7: are to be victims. And so, you know, is it
Speaker 7: believable that he didn't kill a lot of victims after
Speaker 7: you know, the ones that were found in twenty ten, yes,
Speaker 7: twenty thirteen, yes, But before that, I mean, I would
Speaker 7: have imagined he would have been more active the younger
Speaker 7: he was. And given that we know that he's been
Speaker 7: tied to several states, now, you know, I imagining, just
Speaker 7: imagination just kind of goes while thinking about all the
Speaker 7: possibilities here.
Speaker 1: Do you think that they're tied to locations where he
Speaker 1: lived had some type of connection to or do you
Speaker 1: just think he picked this spot and then just kept
Speaker 1: it because he was comfortable there.
Speaker 7: You know, when you look at their research on serial killers,
Speaker 7: definitely most of them pick places where they are comfortable.
Speaker 7: You know, that can be somebody somewhere close to work,
Speaker 7: it could be their home, it can be somewhere close
Speaker 7: to where they live. But very few serial killers go
Speaker 7: around different places that they're not familiar with. Even if
Speaker 7: they're going to a place that where they don't live,
Speaker 7: they typically do a lot of reconnisance beforehand because they
Speaker 7: want they don't want it to be a lot of surprises.
Speaker 7: They want to feel in control of the environment.
Speaker 1: Carrie Rawson, advocate, serial killer expert, author, It does seem like,
Speaker 1: you know, things are changing every day and more information
Speaker 1: is coming out and victims are being identified by name.
Speaker 1: How do we continue to advocate for victims and keep
Speaker 1: that mindset of being respectful towards victims, families and suspect
Speaker 1: families literally when stuff is changing every day.
Speaker 8: That's a really good question and something I'm trying to
Speaker 8: navigate because I'm in like several lanes here of trying
Speaker 8: to advocate for like on the criminal side, for a
Speaker 8: family that's innocent victims like Asa and her kids, you know,
Speaker 8: So I'm trying to speak up for them, but I'm
Speaker 8: not wanting to cause harm to the victims. Families that
Speaker 8: have lost somebody that you know, have a murder victim.
Speaker 8: I know it's very difficult for them. You know, they're
Speaker 8: seeing these go that's go fundme, Like Ace's family needs help,
Speaker 8: but their families need help too, right, And then it's
Speaker 8: got to be brutal for these families, like some of
Speaker 8: them are even on Twitter that have lost like their
Speaker 8: sisters or cousins, and you know, like they're constantly in
Speaker 8: a timeline seeing Rex's face. And then like it's hard
Speaker 8: for me because if I'm asked on record by a
Speaker 8: media outlet to speak, you know, I might be giving
Speaker 8: a victim advocacy component, but then I don't have any control,
Speaker 8: as you all know, over whatever else is in that
Speaker 8: article or the photo, right, Like I don't even have
Speaker 8: control over that headline. So for me, my reality is
Speaker 8: you're always going to see Btk's daughter, Like I don't
Speaker 8: have any control of putting my victim advocacy work next
Speaker 8: to Rex's photo.
Speaker 5: You know, you'll you'll listen to the.
Speaker 8: Seven victim families of my father's and some of them
Speaker 8: are more vocal than others, but like they'll talk about
Speaker 8: like how all this focus is on my dad, and
Speaker 8: sometimes they'll say, hey, like you're focusing on him?
Speaker 5: Man, Man, I got like lanes.
Speaker 8: I'm over here trying to walk really really carefully because
Speaker 8: also the reality is I have things I can add
Speaker 8: about the investigation, and you know, about these critters as
Speaker 8: I'm calling them, but like I want to be sensitive
Speaker 8: to everybody and shoot, I don't know, Mac.
Speaker 1: Well, no, that was well stated. I mean that's the
Speaker 1: reality of your world. You're saying, you're in all these
Speaker 1: different lanes, but those lanes shift on you.
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, ma'am, they think and as you were saying,
Speaker 8: and everybody can attest to you in this Zone seven,
Speaker 8: those lanes are moving very quickly, very rapidly, and we're
Speaker 8: all being called in varying degrees to be news.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about all the folks that responded
Speaker 1: to the different scenes and then especially the processing of
Speaker 1: the home and you're talking about being ground zero for
Speaker 1: two weeks, and you know there's some folks that already
Speaker 1: have some PTSD happening. You know, some people at that
Speaker 1: scene looked very very young. To me, Sergeant, talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about what does happen to you, because I know,
Speaker 1: doctor Jony and I were talking a minute ago. There's
Speaker 1: an old saying that we all use. You can't unring
Speaker 1: a bell and you can't unsee something.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, especially coming from many of us who spent
Speaker 2: lots of time down at Ground zero too and did
Speaker 2: all that.
Speaker 3: And you know, in New York City cops.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately especially, I mean I got on the police department
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two, and by nineteen ninety four we
Speaker 2: had hit the you know, we were up.
Speaker 3: I think that might have been like the high water market.
Speaker 3: I think nineteen ninety was the highest for all of
Speaker 3: the crime for murders.
Speaker 2: So we saw a lot of stuff, especially early on
Speaker 2: in our careers, and as things went along, you kind
Speaker 2: of get I guess you build up a resistance to it,
Speaker 2: and you know, you deal with your own you know,
Speaker 2: you own self defense mechanisms, and that that's why sometimes
Speaker 2: if you watch that that crime scene or the search warrant,
Speaker 2: you see some of the cops.
Speaker 3: You know, just laughing or that kind of thing. It's
Speaker 3: a defense makeans.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people get upset about that when
Speaker 2: they see cops laughing at crime scenes.
Speaker 3: But I try to explain to people that you have
Speaker 3: to do something. It's it's just to break up the
Speaker 3: reality of it.
Speaker 2: I know, uh, you know, doctor Joni there would definitely
Speaker 2: have more of an inside on this, but just from
Speaker 2: normal everyday cops. Yeah, these things can take the toll
Speaker 2: on them. And and you know, mac a lot.
Speaker 3: Of people, a lot of cops they have they have
Speaker 3: a lot of problems dealing with it.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's high alcoholism, there's high divorce rates, there's
Speaker 2: all kinds of things that go along with policing, but
Speaker 2: it has to do with the job.
Speaker 1: Itself, absolutely, and that humor. It is something not everybody understands.
Speaker 1: But sometimes you've got one or two choices either bust
Speaker 1: out crime or bust out laughing. And a lot of
Speaker 1: people would rather laugh and you know, feel that camaraderie
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing at a scene. But I know,
Speaker 1: for me, sometimes when you've got something that just is
Speaker 1: really extra twisted and evil, there's only a handful of
Speaker 1: people you can really talk to about it that falls
Speaker 1: into the whole police culture.
Speaker 2: In the blue cocoon, however you want to refer to
Speaker 2: it as I just had another guy. I spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time in working with him. Unfortunately he took
Speaker 2: his life only a couple of weeks ago. I've known
Speaker 2: a number of cops that killed themselves, and you know,
Speaker 2: people say, well, they had family problems or they had
Speaker 2: financial problems.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand that, but.
Speaker 2: It's like the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's important that police departments focus on
Speaker 2: the mental health aspect of things. But it's a really
Speaker 2: fine line they have to walk because if they really
Speaker 2: research this and really get involved into it, you're going
Speaker 2: to have a lot of cops that are going to
Speaker 2: get surveyed off the job and night and how police
Speaker 2: departments can't afford to have that. So it's like the
Speaker 2: dirty little secret when you're dealing with policing and that respect,
Speaker 2: it's like it's ignorance and apathy, who knows and who cares,
Speaker 2: and it's it's the bottom line. They figured out if
Speaker 2: that if something happens, we'll deal with it. Then until
Speaker 2: then we're going to keep on, you know, pushing ahead.
Speaker 1: Well, like Graham Hickson said, Coach Hickson, you know, we're
Speaker 1: one school, we're one team, and I always feel like
Speaker 1: we're all one department and we need to make sure
Speaker 1: all those folks that are working this case know that
Speaker 1: they have our support and our respect and our help
Speaker 1: if they need it. And that's another reason when you
Speaker 1: have a platform like morph has that you know you
Speaker 1: can talk about things and you know have guests on
Speaker 1: your show that even if one of your listeners is
Speaker 1: maybe not aware of some help or maybe if they
Speaker 1: just hear a story and go, hey, the same thing
Speaker 1: is happening to me. Sometimes morph you may not even
Speaker 1: know the good you're doing for somebody by telling some
Speaker 1: of these stories.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's especially true on my podcast, The Murder
Speaker 6: of My Family, because I talk specifically with, you know,
Speaker 6: survivors who've lost a family member to murder. And sometimes
Speaker 6: they come on because they want to, you know, it
Speaker 6: feels healing to talk about it, sometimes because their case
Speaker 6: is unsolved and they're asking for help getting tips and
Speaker 6: leads generated, and sometimes because they want to help other people.
Speaker 6: A lot of them will tell me there's no manual
Speaker 6: on how to deal with this, but I've learned X, Y,
Speaker 6: and Z, and if I can help somebody else that's
Speaker 6: going through this, then you know, I'm happy to come
Speaker 6: on and share my story. And I hear that quite often.
Speaker 1: Now, Lisa, let's talk a little bit about the timeline.
Speaker 1: The timeline to me is the money tree when you
Speaker 1: first start any homicide, but especially one of this vast
Speaker 1: parallel investigations and single investigations that are all going to
Speaker 1: somehow be woven together. But for me, on a timeline,
Speaker 1: when you start identifying some of these victims from the
Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer. That's going to give us the
Speaker 1: date that they actually disappeared, and that's going to fill
Speaker 1: in some blanks. How important is that intail?
Speaker 4: I think once we start figuring out the timeline and
Speaker 4: we know specifically when we can go ahead and have
Speaker 4: the identification of these victims, we can then go back
Speaker 4: and hit boots on the ground and start the interviews,
Speaker 4: start putting feelers out there, like Joe mentioned, putting a
Speaker 4: face to a name and going ahead and being able
Speaker 4: to acquire those details to which then searches and investigations
Speaker 4: can get done. So that way, I mean, even something
Speaker 4: as simple as doing a DMV search to go ahead
Speaker 4: and check a driver's license for last reported address, going
Speaker 4: ahead and checking social security records, checking border registrations, checking
Speaker 4: even their own criminal history. So that way we can
Speaker 4: develop a profile on the individual.
Speaker 1: And there's two sides to that line. For me, when
Speaker 1: I do a timeline, it also is going to lock
Speaker 1: him in if he's trying to come up with some
Speaker 1: alibis once we know dates he may or may not
Speaker 1: have alibis for some of these dates where the person
Speaker 1: originally went missing.
Speaker 4: Correct, I mean, there you could ask me, where was
Speaker 4: I six weeks ago at this specific date and time,
Speaker 4: and I'll tell you I have no clue. I'm not
Speaker 4: going to know. I don't even remember what I did
Speaker 4: yesterday or what I've rate and had for breakfast this morning.
Speaker 4: So it's going to take definitely a long shot from
Speaker 4: him to be able to go ahead and figure out
Speaker 4: where he was and what he was doing. And again
Speaker 4: it possibly could come back to cell phone triangulations and
Speaker 4: geofencing and see where his phone was hitting to jog
Speaker 4: his memory. But again it comes down to recognition and
Speaker 4: recall and memory and whether or not also, I mean,
Speaker 4: how much does he recall? I mean, we don't know
Speaker 4: how many victims are actually associated with him. We don't
Speaker 4: know his his specific level of psychology or even memory recall,
Speaker 4: because how much information has he retained for each victim.
Speaker 4: We don't know if he kept a log or a
Speaker 4: journal pertaining to the dates and circumstances and facts of
Speaker 4: whatever alleged murders he did commit, because there we know
Speaker 4: that there are some visuals that do commit crimes, that
Speaker 4: do commit a journal, keep a journal, keep a log
Speaker 4: of what they have.
Speaker 5: We also don't.
Speaker 4: Know depending upon what gets I guess produced with regards
Speaker 4: to discovery on the basis of the search warrant in
Speaker 4: South Carolina, because we know that the vehicle was ascertained.
Speaker 4: But with regard to those searches, his brother has possession
Speaker 4: of the car as per the search warrant, we don't
Speaker 4: know if he possibly had that vehicle at one point,
Speaker 4: if he's ever changed license plates on the vehicle, Why
Speaker 4: specifically did he transfer the car to his brother, or
Speaker 4: even most importantly, what was the date of the transfer
Speaker 4: to his brother? Is there a symbolism behind that?
Speaker 1: Great and that's all timeline information? And doctor Joni Lisa
Speaker 1: makes an excellent point, and it's one that I think
Speaker 1: everybody on this panel has talked about. I firmly believe
Speaker 1: he's going to have journals and calendars and maps, and
Speaker 1: I think he's been very detailed in what he's done.
Speaker 1: What do you think I.
Speaker 7: Tend to agree with you about that, Cheryl. He's an
Speaker 7: architect number one, which implies that he's pretty detail oriented.
Speaker 7: The amount of research he did on some of the
Speaker 7: families and continue to follow them makes me feel like
Speaker 7: there are certainly an obsessive part of him. Is somebody
Speaker 7: who keeps revisiting information, So I agree with you. I
Speaker 7: think there will be some written information that he has
Speaker 7: kept somewhere, and.
Speaker 1: I think there's some things that he does almost wrote,
Speaker 1: that he doesn't even realize he does, Like sergeant you know,
Speaker 1: you know there are some cops with NYPD that could
Speaker 1: not work undercover. Everything about them screams they're a police officer,
Speaker 1: like straight out of Central Casting. You know what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, I was one of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I was going to theorize that, and that's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying that, Like that one photograph with you
Speaker 1: when you're in your London fog, you look straight up
Speaker 1: like if I was doing a movie and I needed
Speaker 1: somebody to play a New York City police man, you're
Speaker 1: it sor all day. And I think with you know, Rex,
Speaker 1: if he is the Long Island serial killer, there are
Speaker 1: things that he did from the aspect of his training
Speaker 1: in his career that he doesn't even realize he's doing.
Speaker 1: That tells who he is.
Speaker 2: Well, sure, I mean this guy, there's usually something with
Speaker 2: these individuals in regards to you know that background specifically,
Speaker 2: I mean, we know that environment and experience and of
Speaker 2: course some biological things that would make these these guys tick.
Speaker 2: But you know, to be able to pull something like
Speaker 2: this office so long too, also gives you that in
Speaker 2: depth that.
Speaker 3: You know he is.
Speaker 2: He is kind of smart in certain aspects. He knew
Speaker 2: he knew what he was doing. Yeah, he made mistakes,
Speaker 2: but that's where you know, law enforcement has to come in.
Speaker 3: But to identify those.
Speaker 2: Mistakes, you just from the law enforcement perspective, and I've
Speaker 2: said this before, you need to try to find out
Speaker 2: who the first victim was because that's where he makes
Speaker 2: the most errors.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So I think we're starting to see that with some
Speaker 2: of these cases. Now you know, did he make mistakes
Speaker 2: because he got sloppy, or did he make mistakes because
Speaker 2: he was in a rush? I mean, all of those things,
Speaker 2: you know, come to play. One of the things that
Speaker 2: I've been asking over and over again they try to
Speaker 2: get a conversation on, is we really never talk about
Speaker 2: where these homicides happened, right, you know, where do they occur?
Speaker 2: I know some people think that they have, you know,
Speaker 2: something happened in the house. I still don't believe anything
Speaker 2: happened in the house. Too many nosy neighbors there as
Speaker 2: a Pequa Park. You took it to a kid who
Speaker 2: grew up on Long Island. You know it's they're very close.
Speaker 2: The houses are really close. You can see that, you
Speaker 2: know when you're watching the videos on there too. Everybody
Speaker 2: knows everybody else's business.
Speaker 3: The other thing is, did.
Speaker 2: It happen in a hotel or people say, well, hotels, Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: it didn't happen. Too much surveillance, right, too much videos.
Speaker 2: You got to check in in order to get a room,
Speaker 2: you have to show your all that stuff.
Speaker 3: I doubt anything happened. And this guy's huge.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's he's not somebody who could hide and
Speaker 2: plain sight and in regards to you know, a group
Speaker 2: of people, he would stand out under every circumstance.
Speaker 1: And how do you get a dead body in and
Speaker 1: out of a hotel room twenty times and nobody notices.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying with all, especially with all
Speaker 2: this Savaila, this is survaillance video, even in the staircases
Speaker 2: or when you're trying to exit the doors, or you know,
Speaker 2: inside and outside. I find that not plausible at all
Speaker 2: to me. I keep on going back to the truck.
Speaker 2: You know where he's.
Speaker 3: Going out with the with the women.
Speaker 2: You know, we know that he's got a couple of
Speaker 2: them to leave their cell phones at home the night
Speaker 2: that they disappeared.
Speaker 3: You know, maybe he picks them up in his truck
Speaker 3: or what have you.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is of course all speculation, but that's
Speaker 2: what we're doing here, right, We're just taking a look
Speaker 2: at it and seeing we could put pieces together, just
Speaker 2: like you know, normal investigations would happen. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think that's important, and I think they were surprised
Speaker 2: that these trucks even exist because he has two avalanches.
Speaker 2: People think a lot of people overskip the they.
Speaker 3: Took two avalanches. So that's that's the kind of neat
Speaker 3: aspect of this thing.
Speaker 1: But see, I agree with you, Joe. I think one
Speaker 1: was for killing and one was for driving. So when
Speaker 1: he stopped and they take that car, there's no blood
Speaker 1: in it, there's no hair in it, there's no killing
Speaker 1: tools and weapons in it. So Mike, let me go
Speaker 1: to you. We know that he's associated with different properties,
Speaker 1: you know, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Arizona, Rhode Island.
Speaker 3: Whatever.
Speaker 1: Do you think that he's got some little piece of
Speaker 1: land somewhere that he can pull that truck into some
Speaker 1: trees and do whatever he wants for as long as
Speaker 1: he wants, and then has some burr lap and some
Speaker 1: buckets and some tubs that he puts people in and
Speaker 1: body parts in and the transports them.
Speaker 6: It wouldn't shock me. I mean, this guy, from what
Speaker 6: we do know he's alleged to have done, and the
Speaker 6: things you know that the clues that have been revealed,
Speaker 6: it wouldn't surprise me. In the areas he probably frequented
Speaker 6: to find these victims, they're probably not going to be
Speaker 6: where a lot of people are willing to come forward,
Speaker 6: so he can probably have a little more privacy and
Speaker 6: the fact that those people aren't going to be out
Speaker 6: there coming forward to work with police on a regular basis.
Speaker 6: So I think right from the time he would pick
Speaker 6: them up to wherever he was disposing of them or
Speaker 6: actually murdering them, he probably you know, hoped and sought
Speaker 6: out as much privacy as he could, because, as Joe said,
Speaker 6: there's no way he stands out. He's just wherever he's at.
Speaker 6: If he's with a group of people, you're going to
Speaker 6: see him out of everyone else. The places he could
Speaker 6: go are probably limited, but we know this guy's a hunter,
Speaker 6: so I'm willing to bet he knows some stretches of woods,
Speaker 6: some waterways where there's not going to be people, and
Speaker 6: that's a place where he could maybe take these some
Speaker 6: of these victims or disposed of them and without prying
Speaker 6: eyes looking at him.
Speaker 4: We're talking about waterways, we're talking about land, and we're
Speaker 4: talking about privacy.
Speaker 5: Through my I guess rabbit hole and needs to know.
Speaker 4: Regarding this investigation, I actually did some record searches down
Speaker 4: in South Carolina, and apparently his chunk of land that
Speaker 4: he purchased down there, Number one has a sign on
Speaker 4: the fence or which is surrounding the entire property that
Speaker 4: says no warrant, no entry. So that right there, I mean,
Speaker 4: I know for me, I wouldn't even if I had
Speaker 4: a house at one point I had a fan some
Speaker 4: Why would I put.
Speaker 1: That on there?
Speaker 4: Why would I raise suspicion of my neighbors. Why would
Speaker 4: I possibly want to go ahead and even just put
Speaker 4: that out there. If I wasn't going to be a
Speaker 4: law abiding citizen, why go ahead and have suspicion raised
Speaker 4: upon you? And the other side of it is if
Speaker 4: I didn't do anything wrong. Why would I even put
Speaker 4: that there to begin with, So that right there is
Speaker 4: kind of interesting. The second interesting about the property is
Speaker 4: that through land records, I was able to go ahead
Speaker 4: and access the actual tax property and they what they
Speaker 4: do is they do an aerial photo in addition to
Speaker 4: showing the grid lines of where the property lines extend to.
Speaker 4: And he actually purchased the property which sits on two
Speaker 4: bodies of water, and he's down here in South Carolina.
Speaker 4: It's literally the middle of nowhere. If you were to
Speaker 4: zoom out on the property address and take a look
Speaker 4: at the land around it, for at least two hundred
Speaker 4: and fifty miles, there's not a single body of water.
Speaker 4: But this man conveniently purchases the property and his property
Speaker 4: line contains access to two bodies of water. And mean
Speaker 4: they're small lakes, they look like they could possibly be
Speaker 4: man they're obviously man made for the development. But he's
Speaker 4: got access in the back of the house as well
Speaker 4: as the front of the house.
Speaker 6: And just to piggyback on something Lisa just said, she's
Speaker 6: doing searches for properties that he has owned or had
Speaker 6: access to, But what about properties family members of his?
Speaker 6: What about properties that he had when he was younger,
Speaker 6: or places that he knew of that aren't even in
Speaker 6: his name. There could be a plethora of different places
Speaker 6: he's familiar with that aren't necessarily tied to him.
Speaker 1: And Mike, is funny you said that because I even
Speaker 1: thought he has an adult son, is he using his
Speaker 1: name and social Security number to buy property.
Speaker 4: Or even to rent? Long Island procedure is that you
Speaker 4: just go ahead, or I mean probably most places, is
Speaker 4: that as long as you have sometimes a parent, if
Speaker 4: you have to co sign on a place, I know
Speaker 4: I had to do it when I first moved out
Speaker 4: of my parents' house. I had to bring my parents
Speaker 4: as a co signer on the lease, just so they
Speaker 4: knew that I was going to be paying money every month.
Speaker 4: And I just showed a photo ID and considering the
Speaker 4: fact that the Sun is special needs, that could be
Speaker 4: a justification for him being on a piece of property
Speaker 4: just as a rental and then paying cash.
Speaker 1: Carrie, let me ask you something. When some of these
Speaker 1: theories come up and people are talking and now we're
Speaker 1: just saying something about the sun that may or may
Speaker 1: not even be accurate. But again, how hurtful is that
Speaker 1: to his mama, his sister.
Speaker 8: You just have to deviate, like and make sure you're
Speaker 8: clarifying that he could like it's not the sun doing
Speaker 8: this that you know, like allegedly like Rex could be
Speaker 8: using his kids' names or social Security numbers. I mean,
Speaker 8: there's several components here, Like you just have to remember
Speaker 8: in these conversations, like it's all my father's fault, It's
Speaker 8: it's all allegedly Rex's fault.
Speaker 5: Like all of this devastation.
Speaker 8: Death, disruption to the community, PTSD, like what everybody's enduring
Speaker 8: law enforcement task force go away from their families, Like
Speaker 8: in the case of my father, there were detectives that
Speaker 8: devoted like decades, right, they were looking for my dad
Speaker 8: for three decades. There were detectives that passed away and
Speaker 8: never saw my dad getting caught. And there were these
Speaker 8: stacks of files that were being handed down a decade
Speaker 8: over decade, like to these young guns that were coming up.
Speaker 5: Through the ranks.
Speaker 8: And the reality is like my father's first case was
Speaker 8: in seventy fourth, so we're getting close to fifty years here.
Speaker 8: I have detectives that I call my detectives, Right, they
Speaker 8: were on the task force. They helped catch my dad
Speaker 8: they're retiring now, so my detectives they're retiring, and now
Speaker 8: literally Btk's daughter has been handed to some new guy.
Speaker 8: And when I say a new guy, I mean he's
Speaker 8: been on the task he's been on the police force
Speaker 8: like twenty some years. He's probably my age, right, so
Speaker 8: he's he helped like he was part of like some
Speaker 8: gang task force and he got to sort of help
Speaker 8: arrest my dad. But if you talk to the Wichita guys,
Speaker 8: they all help. They're literally now like, okay, who do
Speaker 8: we hand his daughter to? Right as somebody retires, Like
Speaker 8: who do we hand these files to?
Speaker 5: But all it all goes back. It's all my dad's
Speaker 5: fault and it's all Rex's fault.
Speaker 8: But like like doctor Jony can help me here. But
Speaker 8: the thing is when you guys are talking about like
Speaker 8: we don't know where Rex took his victims, Like I'm
Speaker 8: assuming he did pick them up at a motel and
Speaker 8: then he transported them in the truck alive somewhere, or
Speaker 8: maybe he bound them somewhere, But I don't know if
Speaker 8: he could have done that at the motel. Somehow he
Speaker 8: got them away from wherever he was meeting him, or
Speaker 8: he has some location where he met them. I mean,
Speaker 8: that's where you got to look in the records. The
Speaker 8: thing is, I just don't think he would have spent
Speaker 8: the time he did with him in the truck. That
Speaker 8: doesn't make sense to me, Like you would have to
Speaker 8: park that truck somewhere covered. Now, of course, you could
Speaker 8: be transporting bodies in there, or you could have dismembered
Speaker 8: people and then transported him. The evidence will tell us
Speaker 8: that that was happening in the truck. But if you're
Speaker 8: spending time with them and bounding them and wrapping them
Speaker 8: and the cares, that's where I get all messed up
Speaker 8: and confused this because it's like he was very careful
Speaker 8: with Go Go for and it just doesn't match the
Speaker 8: other ones. But it doesn't mean it's not him, because
Speaker 8: you know, they evolve and they change. I just it
Speaker 8: feels to me like we're missing some corn it sort
Speaker 8: of key component. Like my father broke into homes and
Speaker 8: then used those victims how to us as coverage, and
Speaker 8: he ran into all sorts of scenarios he wasn't expecting,
Speaker 8: and he had to adapt.
Speaker 5: Rex really eliminated a lot of the trouble.
Speaker 8: My dad would use the word trouble that my dad
Speaker 8: ran into because he's literally controlling this like petite, little
Speaker 8: five foot woman, you know, but we don't. I don't
Speaker 8: know did he take him back home, did he take
Speaker 8: him in the vault? I mean, evident will tell us
Speaker 8: right or property records or investigations. It's just it feels
Speaker 8: like this missing component to me right now, and I
Speaker 8: don't know what it is.
Speaker 7: Man, I feel the same way carry that there's something missing,
Speaker 7: and I don't know. I do feel like he is
Speaker 7: going to take them somewhere that's enclosed. I have a
Speaker 7: hard time also seeing him doing all of these things
Speaker 7: in a truck outdoors. I also I have no problem
Speaker 7: seeing him transporting bodies in a truck as well. To me,
Speaker 7: given his reputation in the neighborhood as somebody who was
Speaker 7: kept himself, some people saw him as scary or odd.
Speaker 7: The family was very aloof To me, It's not out
Speaker 7: of the realm of possibility that he could find a
Speaker 7: way at night to bring somebody to his house with
Speaker 7: his family being gone, and spend a lot of time
Speaker 7: in that vault with them and then transport them out.
Speaker 7: But it'll be interesting to see. I feel like you know,
Speaker 7: we don't know. Obviously I'm completely speculating, but I do
Speaker 7: think he is taking them somewhere where he feels comfortable
Speaker 7: and he can take as much time as he wants
Speaker 7: to with them. And maybe the hunting, maybe somebody has
Speaker 7: a hunting cabin that he borrows or whatever. That's the
Speaker 7: other possibility. But it's hard for me to see him
Speaker 7: doing something where he's not completely comfortable physically as well
Speaker 7: as psychologically.
Speaker 1: All right, anybody else want to throw out anything.
Speaker 6: It was just sort of I think we forget that
Speaker 6: when obviously we talked about his family being victims of
Speaker 6: a different kind. Obviously that they weren't murder victims. He
Speaker 6: victimized them in another way. But just the police obviously
Speaker 6: have to go into that house and tear that house
Speaker 6: apart looking for evidence, but to see those pictures of
Speaker 6: what they were left with, because now they've got to
Speaker 6: deal with this aftermath. And then if they're going to
Speaker 6: live in this house, how do you live in that house?
Speaker 6: I mean, beside what may have happened there and the
Speaker 6: things are probably worried about now, it's the bath hub
Speaker 6: ripped out of the thing I was, you know, it
Speaker 6: reminded me of what these homes look like sometimes when
Speaker 6: the police go through them looking for evidence. And you know,
Speaker 6: I wondered what Carrie's thoughts are on something like that.
Speaker 8: As a citizen and as a crime victim, I don't
Speaker 8: honestly know are there laws that protect victim like crime
Speaker 8: victim families of the criminals. And then in a crime
Speaker 8: scene like you take Idaho for like, is there any
Speaker 8: sort of law or protections like hoop for that cleanup?
Speaker 8: Is there a cleanup or do the police just release it?
Speaker 8: I mean, you guys can address that in a second.
Speaker 8: But like from my viewpoint, my situation was different because
Speaker 8: my dad confessed the first night they basically held against
Speaker 8: my dad. He was holding out for them for the
Speaker 8: last first like six hours and then interrogation. He was
Speaker 8: playing games and he was he was being like just
Speaker 8: a real big pill, like and everybody knew they had
Speaker 8: em and they basically were just getting kind of fed
Speaker 8: up with him, and they said, look, they're like, we know,
Speaker 8: we know your BTK, and we know you have.
Speaker 5: Evidence in your house. You know, they knew he had
Speaker 5: sent in.
Speaker 8: A driver's license from his eighty six murder, and they
Speaker 8: knew they figured he had other driver's license, and there
Speaker 8: were jewelry missing, and so they're like, we know you
Speaker 8: have stuff where like where is that stash? Like your
Speaker 8: most important evidence? And they said, if you don't give
Speaker 8: it to us, we're gonna we're gonna toss your your
Speaker 8: house and really harm Paula, my mom and the kids.
Speaker 8: We're gonna make things worse on them by tossing that house.
Speaker 8: So from what I understand, they literally use that as
Speaker 8: a pressure point to get my dad to give up
Speaker 8: the goods, which was evidence that was buried under a
Speaker 8: floorboard in our hallway. Now, they would have had to
Speaker 8: toss that house pretty darn hard to find that because
Speaker 8: it was under a really heavy cabinet. Right, So between
Speaker 8: that and having the evidence they had and my dad
Speaker 8: and then my dad just finally saying yeah, you got
Speaker 8: me on BTK and then my dad gave him a
Speaker 8: thirty hour confession, which we're not seeing here with res
Speaker 8: that we know of. So the situation's different because my
Speaker 8: dad was cooperative. He walked them through everything he told him.
Speaker 8: Like my dad has an insane memory even nowadays, he
Speaker 8: can tell like we were all saying, we don't know
Speaker 8: what we had for breakfast. My dad can give you
Speaker 8: an alibi for some week and in October in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 8: Now it might not be true, it might have ten
Speaker 8: lies around it. But he literally can still remember things
Speaker 8: down to like the name of a creek where he
Speaker 8: put a body in like nineteen one, Like he can
Speaker 8: draw you the bridge. Like that's the insane level that
Speaker 8: my father still operates at. And he's elderly, so it's
Speaker 8: just a different situation. So, like Mike was asking about
Speaker 8: the house, it's hard for me to see like all
Speaker 8: of that evidence piled out. But Mackett, you made a
Speaker 8: good point, like they got to go in there. We
Speaker 8: don't know if crimes were committed there, like you have,
Speaker 8: like as a crime scene tech, you have to go
Speaker 8: in and you have to look at everything. I mean,
Speaker 8: I understand from the evidence point what they got to do.
Speaker 8: I would have just liked to see some team go
Speaker 8: in there and kind of fix it for them. And
Speaker 8: literally I don't understand, Like this is where like the
Speaker 8: trauma comes in, Right, You're so traumatized and you're like, well,
Speaker 8: I'm just going to go back and live in my house. Well,
Speaker 8: this is where the disconnect is and somebody needs to
Speaker 8: come in like doctor Jony and work with these people
Speaker 8: like like psychology and trauma therapy and victims' advocates and
Speaker 8: come in and go like, hey, guys, you're living in
Speaker 8: a crime scene. Can we get you like a safe, quiet,
Speaker 8: new place to live and be like.
Speaker 5: So you can heal.
Speaker 1: Nothing about murder is clean. Everything is messy, everything is horrible,
Speaker 1: Everything is gross. So to me, when you look at Peaches,
Speaker 1: I believe that her baby, doctor Jonie said the other day,
Speaker 1: sadly was collateral damage. When you look at what happened
Speaker 1: to that house, sorry, that's collateral damage. But again Rex
Speaker 1: did that. He did that to his family, and as
Speaker 1: a crime scene person, looking at that house almost like
Speaker 1: they're hoarders. I have no idea what any of that
Speaker 1: stuff is and how it fits. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: try to take all of it. And then I believe
Speaker 1: he does have things hidden. I think he's got maps
Speaker 1: and journals and codes and little notations on bar napkins
Speaker 1: possibly and some type of way that he's kept a
Speaker 1: log of things. I want every bit of it. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna make holes in the wall, I'm gonna pull up
Speaker 1: the floor, and I'm gonna move anything that is obviously
Speaker 1: too heavy because I don't trust what's behind it, or
Speaker 1: what's underneath it, or frankly, what's inside it. So I've
Speaker 1: got to know. And again, it is horrible and it
Speaker 1: is sad, but I'm gonna tell you something. If you
Speaker 1: were to ask those families had you'd rather have your
Speaker 1: house tore up and get your child back, Well, there
Speaker 1: you go.
Speaker 6: I use the term ripple effect because it's when these
Speaker 6: guys do this kind of thing. They destroy everybody's lives,
Speaker 6: their families, they're victims. They're victims, families, the officers that
Speaker 6: they've got to put all the stress on and what
Speaker 6: they've got to say. So nothing good comes from this.
Speaker 6: This is these people destroying countless lives in so many ways.
Speaker 1: And the ripple effect is massive, and it continues like
Speaker 1: there's just another tidal wave and then another tidal wave.
Speaker 1: The more you find out stuff, You're absolutely right, sergeant,
Speaker 1: any final fault.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Generally, the way these things work, the family can
Speaker 2: have recourse. And if you listen to the press conference
Speaker 2: when they ask the district attorney about the house, and
Speaker 2: you said that she can file any kind of you know,
Speaker 2: things she wants to which I think was kind of
Speaker 2: foretelling because generally the way these things work is that
Speaker 2: when they do the search warrant, if the police go
Speaker 2: in and they don't find evidence, they generally the city,
Speaker 2: of the state or the county there is responsible for
Speaker 2: fixing things and repairing it, but if they find evidence
Speaker 2: of a crime, they kind of walk away from it
Speaker 2: and say this is all on you now. So I
Speaker 2: thought that was kind of foretelling that the district there,
Speaker 2: and he said, well, she can try any way she wants.
Speaker 1: Yep, agreed.
Speaker 7: I think that's one thing I wanted to just say
Speaker 7: as we kind of wrap things up, is just this
Speaker 7: idea of the ripple effect and also just how it
Speaker 7: affects so many different people differently and depending upon the
Speaker 7: role and the relationship with the individuals, and I think
Speaker 7: it is important. I know, Joe, you were talking about
Speaker 7: some of the silent suffering that police officers endure for
Speaker 7: years and the things that they see, and Carrie talking
Speaker 7: about some of the things that you've gone through. I
Speaker 7: think you know there are resources, and there need to
Speaker 7: be more resources, and I think particularly resources in terms
Speaker 7: of talking to people who have been through the same
Speaker 7: thing that you have. I think when you're talking about
Speaker 7: a trauma like this, whether you lost somebody to homicide,
Speaker 7: or you spent years viewing homicides, or you grew up
Speaker 7: with somebody who was committing homicides. I think I don't
Speaker 7: know if there's any substitute for finding other people who
Speaker 7: can really understand, and they're not that many people who understand.
Speaker 7: And professional counseling fantastic, and therapy is fantastic as well.
Speaker 7: Obviously I promote that as a psychologist, but I do
Speaker 7: think that peer piece of it is really really important.
Speaker 8: I've done so much trauma therapy and I'm back in it,
Speaker 8: and yeah, it has it has helped. It's one of
Speaker 8: the components that has helped save my life. You know,
Speaker 8: faith has helped save my life. My own strength that
Speaker 8: my dad taught me or I was born with and
Speaker 8: he honed, and literally he built me partly to be strong,
Speaker 8: I think because he knew what was coming. I really
Speaker 8: think my dad built me partly, built into me to
Speaker 8: stand up to him, which I did on multiple occasions.
Speaker 5: It's interesting when you think about it that way.
Speaker 8: But all of these components, my faith and you know,
Speaker 8: my children, all this stuff keeps me alive. But really
Speaker 8: what's brought me back to life is really like the
Speaker 8: development of my Zone seven and really just in the
Speaker 8: last half year really honestly, since Coberger was arrested, like
Speaker 8: all of.
Speaker 5: These people have come into my life.
Speaker 8: I'm like, now you guys are all like becoming colleagues
Speaker 8: or like family, Like I really don't have much family anymore.
Speaker 8: And so for me, you know, Mac and I were
Speaker 8: talking like all of this hell is happening all over
Speaker 8: here and it's got awful, but we all like find
Speaker 8: each other in it, and we we get closer, you know,
Speaker 8: like we're all in it together as we're like working
Speaker 8: the problem.
Speaker 5: That's what I call it. Like we're all over here
Speaker 5: working this problem.
Speaker 8: Together, and we build, we build like our family as
Speaker 8: we're like educating and learning. I'm literally sitting here learning
Speaker 8: from you all tonight. But like I'm I'm getting a
Speaker 8: family back.
Speaker 5: So that's that's like that.
Speaker 8: Key component, like doctor Joni was talking about about having
Speaker 8: each other and there aren't that many people that can
Speaker 8: deal on the level that I need people to deal.
Speaker 8: And so like when I find like my my true
Speaker 8: crime netters is, I'm pretty happy because it's like I
Speaker 8: found my face, I found my people.
Speaker 1: Well, getting your family back I kind of the kind
Speaker 1: of got to me, all right, I like it. I
Speaker 1: like that all day. I do thank you all, and
Speaker 1: I you know, I do believe you know what coach
Speaker 1: used to say, you know, one school, one team. Well,
Speaker 1: I feel like we're one community in one family. I mean,
Speaker 1: I really do.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: I just appreciate y'all desperately. So now I'm going to
Speaker 1: wrap up so y'all can get to the bar. I mean,
Speaker 1: to your family the exactly. Well, that's how we do.
Speaker 4: As long as you're not taking the family to the boy.
Speaker 1: You know, don't question my parenting.
Speaker 5: It works for us.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 5: I'm in Manhattan right now, Manhattan, New York. I got
Speaker 5: every often imaginable bar, and.
Speaker 1: You need to go take advantage of about nine of
Speaker 1: them and enjoy yourself. I'm going to eat end Zone
Speaker 1: seven the way that I always do with a quote.
Speaker 1: We will support this task for us with every tool
Speaker 1: it needs to hopefully bring this investigation in these murders
Speaker 1: to a successful conclusion. Michael J. Driscoll, Assistant Director of
Speaker 1: the FBI of New York. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this
Speaker 1: is Zone Heaven,