1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:21,876 Speaker 1: Push it. Your mom left the South side of Chicago. 2 00:00:21,916 --> 00:00:24,716 Speaker 1: She lives with you now in New Jersey. And but 3 00:00:24,716 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 1: but more more specifically, like she didn't just leave. She 4 00:00:29,716 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 1: purchased a handgun a couple of years ago because she 5 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:36,116 Speaker 1: wasn't feeling safe. Yeah. Yeah, and that's someone who should 6 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:39,036 Speaker 1: not be She's got a shaky hand. I know, she 7 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:41,676 Speaker 1: should not be wielding a gun. Yeah. So when she 8 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:43,676 Speaker 1: told me this, I was like, Mom, you have to 9 00:00:43,716 --> 00:00:46,596 Speaker 1: move here. Like if it's come to that, like Chicago 10 00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:49,036 Speaker 1: needs another handgun on the street, right, So if it 11 00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 1: comes to that, then it's time for you to come 12 00:00:51,076 --> 00:00:59,796 Speaker 1: be with us. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. 13 00:01:00,076 --> 00:01:03,996 Speaker 1: We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 14 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 15 00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 1: my best friends are this show, we wrestle with the 16 00:01:10,516 --> 00:01:15,356 Speaker 1: challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 17 00:01:15,556 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: In today's episode, we talk about violence and its personal. 18 00:01:19,436 --> 00:01:22,716 Speaker 1: We're talking about our hometown, We're talking about our neighborhood. 19 00:01:22,796 --> 00:01:25,676 Speaker 1: We're talking about the most spectacular instances of gun violence. 20 00:01:26,036 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 1: We're worried, We're worried about overcorrecting or going back to 21 00:01:29,756 --> 00:01:32,436 Speaker 1: business as usual, that somehow policing is going to solve 22 00:01:32,476 --> 00:01:36,396 Speaker 1: this all on its own and ultimately we have solutions 23 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 1: that will actually fix these problems and has very little 24 00:01:39,556 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 1: to do actually with law enforcement. So hey man, we 25 00:02:01,636 --> 00:02:05,876 Speaker 1: haven't really talked about this, but uh, I mean Hyde Park, 26 00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 1: our home neighborhood has experienced unprecedented islands collapsing in one day. 27 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:16,956 Speaker 1: How are you doing? What's going on now? What's the response? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 28 00:02:16,996 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean there was a day where there 29 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 1: was a shooting with automatic gunfire and hard report. There 30 00:02:25,036 --> 00:02:27,996 Speaker 1: was a murder of a University of Chicago student and 31 00:02:28,396 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 1: a murderer, a stabbing of a man in a domestic situation. 32 00:02:31,996 --> 00:02:34,636 Speaker 1: I don't even know much more about it, and it's 33 00:02:34,636 --> 00:02:38,796 Speaker 1: really scary. I mean people are scared. There's you know, 34 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:43,356 Speaker 1: the loss of life and and then thinking about you know, 35 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:46,076 Speaker 1: for for me, and I think for you too, like 36 00:02:47,756 --> 00:02:50,276 Speaker 1: how do you feel safe? But also guy, yeah, but 37 00:02:50,356 --> 00:02:52,996 Speaker 1: also the fear that there's going to be some response 38 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:57,436 Speaker 1: that is going to be like more policing, and it's 39 00:02:57,476 --> 00:03:00,476 Speaker 1: going to cause it's going to cause other problems. Like 40 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:02,996 Speaker 1: I'm scared of that right. Yeah, well, I can tell 41 00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 1: you from a mom who've gotten a lot of report 42 00:03:04,996 --> 00:03:06,836 Speaker 1: song she's watching I see it. I see her on 43 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:10,076 Speaker 1: social media every day talking about Yeah. I mean, she 44 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: and I have basically been having an ongoing conversation about 45 00:03:13,796 --> 00:03:16,436 Speaker 1: it because she's getting news stories. She's talking to people 46 00:03:16,476 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: who live in Chicago, live in your neighborhood. And I'm 47 00:03:20,756 --> 00:03:24,116 Speaker 1: really concerned not only about, you know, how how people 48 00:03:24,156 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 1: experience what's happened, but also what comes now. You know, 49 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 1: people in a moment like this decide to pack up 50 00:03:30,956 --> 00:03:34,716 Speaker 1: and leave, like it's an existential moment. You know, people 51 00:03:34,716 --> 00:03:37,636 Speaker 1: are like, I've had enough and this is what this 52 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 1: is what destroys communities. So I mean, I tell you 53 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 1: that I have neighbors who were like, is this the 54 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:45,956 Speaker 1: breaking point? Is it? Should we leave? And I hate 55 00:03:46,036 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 1: hearing that. I hate it. I mean, and I know 56 00:03:48,476 --> 00:03:50,996 Speaker 1: I know that that people. You know that we have 57 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:54,756 Speaker 1: to have really honest discussions about crime and safety. But 58 00:03:55,316 --> 00:03:58,596 Speaker 1: you know, I feel committed to this city, into this neighborhood, 59 00:03:58,716 --> 00:04:03,396 Speaker 1: and so there's something so destructive for me. It's also 60 00:04:03,716 --> 00:04:05,796 Speaker 1: I think what I'm most interested in talking to you 61 00:04:05,836 --> 00:04:12,036 Speaker 1: about today is exactly how this moment opens up possibilities 62 00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:16,076 Speaker 1: that we haven't really done before and or in thinking 63 00:04:16,116 --> 00:04:18,876 Speaker 1: about the summer of George Floyd and everything that came 64 00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:22,236 Speaker 1: and the you know, the possibilities of really understanding the 65 00:04:22,316 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 1: relationship of of social justice and policing, you know, yeah, like, yeah, 66 00:04:27,796 --> 00:04:29,796 Speaker 1: this is the moment, This is the moment to test 67 00:04:29,876 --> 00:04:33,596 Speaker 1: our medal, right, to see because they were willing to do, 68 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:36,476 Speaker 1: they're responses to crime, and in a moment like this, 69 00:04:36,556 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: they're a most predictable more policing. But we want to 70 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,956 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, what are other responses, what are 71 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:44,916 Speaker 1: other responses that are better. So let's let's go to 72 00:04:45,036 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 1: Hyde Park. Let's look exactly at what happened there, and 73 00:04:49,156 --> 00:05:09,956 Speaker 1: let's look at the responses. Yeah, so I called Sophia King, 74 00:05:10,036 --> 00:05:14,676 Speaker 1: who is my local alderman. So Sophia, I'm recording, Oh 75 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:18,036 Speaker 1: are you? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, she's good. She's good people. 76 00:05:18,236 --> 00:05:19,396 Speaker 1: And I just saw her when I was a couple 77 00:05:19,436 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 1: weeks are her. I saw her and I wanted to 78 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 1: hear what happened from her perspective. There were at least 79 00:05:27,236 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 1: I think twenty seven shell casings found, which you know, 80 00:05:33,356 --> 00:05:39,396 Speaker 1: again just underscores the brazen miss of it. We're pulling 81 00:05:39,436 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 1: into onto Harper right now, coming from coming from Kenwood, 82 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:45,756 Speaker 1: and this is our route essentially every day for lunch, 83 00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:50,556 Speaker 1: you know, Kenwood kids, right, I mean and until at noon. 84 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:55,956 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a busy um street and and 85 00:05:56,036 --> 00:05:58,356 Speaker 1: it's right in the middle of the day in downtown 86 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:05,516 Speaker 1: Hyde Park. Um And yeah, it could have been a 87 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:08,836 Speaker 1: mass murder. And also get a better sense of what 88 00:06:08,836 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 1: the responses have been because she's been in hundreds of 89 00:06:12,356 --> 00:06:16,716 Speaker 1: meetings since then with concerned you know whatever. The stakeholders 90 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:20,516 Speaker 1: as we call them, right, people are calling for more policing. 91 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:26,876 Speaker 1: You know. My response is is that this is also 92 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: an opportunity, tunity to have alternative policing, like the neighbors, 93 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: the store owners, the University of Chicago. Because you probably 94 00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 1: have heard Um the Kilwin's owner. You know, it was 95 00:06:41,476 --> 00:06:47,836 Speaker 1: a traumatic experience for her and her employees, who you know, 96 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 1: Um luckily weren't in the windows that were shot out, 97 00:06:54,396 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 1: but you know, in that regard, it was traumatic and 98 00:06:57,836 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 1: people were hurt. Her business is still closed. They're scared, 99 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:04,556 Speaker 1: and they want to know, they want to know what 100 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 1: to do about this crime, and they want to know 101 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 1: what she's going to do, because you know, a crime occurs, 102 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:12,596 Speaker 1: and then what is the proper response? I mean, that's 103 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 1: what where you and I are always talking about this, right, 104 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 1: you know, I just want to make sure that there's 105 00:07:17,796 --> 00:07:20,636 Speaker 1: the appropriate response, and think in speaking of you know, 106 00:07:20,676 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 1: appropriate policing, there are other avenues. And she's a neighbor too, 107 00:07:25,996 --> 00:07:28,636 Speaker 1: and I know that she's experiencing this in a in 108 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 1: a real way that you know, I'm friends with her 109 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 1: and I've known her for years, but I know that 110 00:07:33,356 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 1: she's also on the block driving around, has some of 111 00:07:36,196 --> 00:07:39,036 Speaker 1: the same concerns that Danielle, my wife has, and also 112 00:07:39,076 --> 00:07:42,396 Speaker 1: that I have. You do you feel less less safe? 113 00:07:42,396 --> 00:07:45,036 Speaker 1: Are you taking more precautions? I do? I do feel 114 00:07:45,076 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 1: less safe. I gosh, I come out of my my parking, 115 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:51,316 Speaker 1: I'm out of my garage, and I'm turning my head 116 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:54,156 Speaker 1: and going You've had friends on your block? Yes, friend, 117 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:57,956 Speaker 1: I've got my good friends who were carjacked and and 118 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 1: and it's very traumatic for them. It's traumatic for me 119 00:08:01,356 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 1: to know that that happened, to know how they feel, 120 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:09,556 Speaker 1: and and and it's hard to internalize it. You and 121 00:08:09,596 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: I are constantly talking about about over policing and also 122 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 1: about responses to crime and about the criminal justice system. 123 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:21,036 Speaker 1: And so here we are in our neighborhood where I 124 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:22,756 Speaker 1: live and where you grew up and where your mom 125 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:29,316 Speaker 1: just left, and there's this crime that occurs, and how 126 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:31,196 Speaker 1: do you respond to it in the short term and 127 00:08:31,236 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 1: the long term? What do you do to make people 128 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:38,676 Speaker 1: feel more safe? And then you know, not make things 129 00:08:38,756 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 1: worse at the same time. Yeah, I mean, so here 130 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:45,876 Speaker 1: we are right where we are? What are we a 131 00:08:45,996 --> 00:08:48,596 Speaker 1: year and a half? We're a year and a half. 132 00:08:48,716 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 1: What are we I thought I thought you were going 133 00:08:50,036 --> 00:08:53,756 Speaker 1: to say, we are two leading experts on criminal justice system. 134 00:08:53,876 --> 00:08:56,996 Speaker 1: We're a year and a half since the massive protests 135 00:08:57,036 --> 00:08:59,996 Speaker 1: following the murders of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor buy 136 00:09:00,036 --> 00:09:04,116 Speaker 1: police officers and and and widespread calls for defund the police. 137 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:08,116 Speaker 1: And and you know, then when crime occurs, when occurs 138 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:11,716 Speaker 1: in Chicago, when hers all over the country, people return 139 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 1: to this sense of like, well, shit, we must need 140 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:17,236 Speaker 1: more policing. You know, forget the fund. We need actually 141 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 1: more policing because that's what's going to keep us safe. 142 00:09:20,436 --> 00:09:23,476 Speaker 1: That there is still this fallback to the kind of 143 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:27,916 Speaker 1: status quo sensibility of public safety. Yeah. Yeah, I mean 144 00:09:27,956 --> 00:09:30,916 Speaker 1: I would put it a little differently. I would say 145 00:09:31,276 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: that while while it's certainly true we've seen news reports 146 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:37,516 Speaker 1: of refund almost every city that promised some kind of 147 00:09:37,556 --> 00:09:40,196 Speaker 1: cut has put a lot of that money back in 148 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 1: cities all over the country, I would say that part 149 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:49,116 Speaker 1: of what I'm sensing from the conversations that are happening 150 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 1: on social media about what's happening in Chicago and even 151 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:55,396 Speaker 1: sort of watching the New York City mayoral race here, 152 00:09:55,636 --> 00:09:58,236 Speaker 1: is that there's this sense that the uptick in violence 153 00:09:58,276 --> 00:10:05,596 Speaker 1: requires an immediate response, like somehow the protests unleashed a 154 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 1: sense of entitlement to the streets that Lala has just 155 00:10:10,516 --> 00:10:13,676 Speaker 1: sort of taken advantage. My mom even used the word 156 00:10:13,796 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: like this is these are people who are doing things 157 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 1: out of opportunity, and that somehow, like a tourniquet, there 158 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:25,596 Speaker 1: needs to be some immediate response to stop the bleeding 159 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 1: and then we could get back to these bigger questions. 160 00:10:28,756 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: And I think, and I think that's the kind of 161 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 1: the tension that's certainly the tension I feel in my 162 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:35,556 Speaker 1: own household talking about this, but it's it's also the 163 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:38,396 Speaker 1: tension I think I feel when I'm listening to people, 164 00:10:38,996 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 1: you know, who have a more complicated response to this 165 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:44,516 Speaker 1: than just the old law and order stuff from back 166 00:10:44,516 --> 00:10:46,676 Speaker 1: in the day. And I'm wondering what does Sophia say 167 00:10:46,676 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 1: about how does she balance this tension and awareness of 168 00:10:50,436 --> 00:10:54,516 Speaker 1: like the consequences of kind of going back to a 169 00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:59,036 Speaker 1: much more vigorous police presence. Yeah, I mean Sophia is complicated. 170 00:10:59,076 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 1: She's the head of the Progressive Caucus and the City Council. 171 00:11:02,036 --> 00:11:04,676 Speaker 1: She does ask for things like alternative forms of policing. 172 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: She asked for funding for housing in schools, but she 173 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:12,636 Speaker 1: also wants it's on the ground. She wants more police officers. Sophia, 174 00:11:12,676 --> 00:11:15,396 Speaker 1: in a way, is going to be held accountable for this. Right, 175 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 1: She's directly responsible if people feel unsafe. Someone's going to 176 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:21,716 Speaker 1: run against her and say I'm the safety candidate, right, 177 00:11:21,996 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 1: and so she has to respond to this. I think 178 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 1: we should move towards those ideals, but keep some real 179 00:11:29,276 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 1: boots on the ground. That's that's the reality. So, like 180 00:11:32,636 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 1: I said, I think we need more presents, um and 181 00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:37,436 Speaker 1: police as part of that. I also think, you know, 182 00:11:37,516 --> 00:11:41,676 Speaker 1: positive loidering and having a bustling and hustling business as 183 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:43,956 Speaker 1: a part of it. But you're right, um, you know, 184 00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 1: these are kinds of opportunity where there there's not much, 185 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:51,076 Speaker 1: you know, somebody could do. I mean, one of the 186 00:11:51,116 --> 00:11:53,516 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I think we decided to have 187 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 1: a bigger conversation about it happening here in Hyde Park 188 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 1: is that, like I'm experiencing that need for an immediate response. 189 00:12:01,316 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 1: This is the community where where we live, you know, 190 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 1: So this is real for my family. So Lysia, my daughter, 191 00:12:08,036 --> 00:12:11,316 Speaker 1: who is sixteen, still walks to and from school and 192 00:12:11,356 --> 00:12:13,716 Speaker 1: now that it's you know, now that it's winter, it's 193 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 1: dark when she comes back, and every day after school 194 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:19,316 Speaker 1: she likes to stop by the Medici this this U 195 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:22,316 Speaker 1: restaurant and get you know, like a bad dat our favorite, 196 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 1: our favorite pizza place. Yeah. But but she her her 197 00:12:25,596 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 1: friends have been told that they're not allowed to go 198 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:29,956 Speaker 1: out with her. Not because she's a bad influence. So 199 00:12:30,076 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 1: maybe that is the reason, I don't know, but because 200 00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:36,436 Speaker 1: the parents are worried about crime and they can't be 201 00:12:36,476 --> 00:12:39,876 Speaker 1: out when it's after school or walk around. Okay, so this, 202 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:43,476 Speaker 1: this is a this is a totally new thing. In 203 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:47,956 Speaker 1: response to the shootings that happen in High Park, most recently, 204 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:50,396 Speaker 1: this is, this is right now, right now happening. I 205 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:53,876 Speaker 1: mean she has one friend who this is you know, 206 00:12:53,876 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: I heard the second hand from a sixteen year old, 207 00:12:56,236 --> 00:13:00,636 Speaker 1: so take a taken like that. But who she was 208 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:03,076 Speaker 1: told she can't sit in the front of their of 209 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:06,356 Speaker 1: their home that's facing the street because they're worried about 210 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:10,596 Speaker 1: straight gunfire. I mean that's real, right in every possible way, 211 00:13:10,636 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 1: and people do get killed randomly, and oftentimes kids. But 212 00:13:14,156 --> 00:13:17,356 Speaker 1: like this is this is our neighborhood. Like it's a 213 00:13:17,476 --> 00:13:20,956 Speaker 1: very middle class, upper income community, and so the thought 214 00:13:21,156 --> 00:13:24,756 Speaker 1: that that's the advice now in Hyde Park is really wild. 215 00:13:24,916 --> 00:13:26,596 Speaker 1: And you know, I have talks with her about not 216 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 1: being the low hanging fruit, about now walking with her 217 00:13:29,956 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: phone out and looking at her phone, that there have 218 00:13:32,276 --> 00:13:34,476 Speaker 1: been a lot of robberies of people just pulling up 219 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:38,316 Speaker 1: and jumping people and taking their phones and often with guns, 220 00:13:38,596 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: you know, saying give me what you have. And so 221 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: I tell her not to be that person who is 222 00:13:43,836 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 1: with her head down and a phone and looks like 223 00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: an easy target. Yeah. I went to a meeting of 224 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: the Chamber of Commerce. I did this on zoom, and 225 00:13:53,156 --> 00:13:56,076 Speaker 1: all the store owners from the neighborhood were like they 226 00:13:56,116 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: wanted to know what to do. And it wasn't like 227 00:13:58,436 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 1: they were all demanding more police, but they were like, 228 00:14:01,676 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 1: what do we do to feel safe? You know? Should 229 00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: we have cameras, Should we have drones, should we like 230 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:10,076 Speaker 1: you know it, should there be secure guards? Like they 231 00:14:10,076 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 1: wanted something. Yeah, And I and I mean, just to 232 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 1: add to that, I also read an open letter written 233 00:14:17,396 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 1: by something like three hundred faculty members at the University 234 00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 1: of Chicago in response to the killing of a Chinese 235 00:14:25,196 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 1: national student. So the student who was robbed, the student 236 00:14:29,636 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: was Chinese national student who was here in the neighborhood. 237 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:35,676 Speaker 1: And he's he's the third University of Chicago student killed 238 00:14:35,676 --> 00:14:38,876 Speaker 1: this year, and the second one who is an international student. 239 00:14:38,956 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And in that letter, and a couple of 240 00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:44,236 Speaker 1: things jumped out, I mean to this point about how 241 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:46,956 Speaker 1: do you respond. I mean, there was like literally a 242 00:14:46,956 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 1: call for surveillance cameras and this is not an exaggeration 243 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:57,516 Speaker 1: on every intersection in Hyde Park. And while they didn't 244 00:14:57,556 --> 00:15:00,356 Speaker 1: quite say cops on every corner, they did say security 245 00:15:00,396 --> 00:15:04,316 Speaker 1: guards on every corner. And you know, I mean, I 246 00:15:04,316 --> 00:15:09,356 Speaker 1: could I can certainly understand it because the stakes of 247 00:15:09,396 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 1: what that very significant response might mean in terms of 248 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:18,276 Speaker 1: delivering public safety cut against the other problems which gave 249 00:15:18,396 --> 00:15:22,636 Speaker 1: rise to police reform debates, which is what happens when 250 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:25,876 Speaker 1: you over police a community and everyone's treated like a suspect, 251 00:15:26,036 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 1: especially if they happen to be black and brown. Like 252 00:15:29,196 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: this is where I think my mom and those faculty 253 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:35,596 Speaker 1: members at the UFC are probably not that far apart, right, 254 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:38,196 Speaker 1: because there is a sense like you have to do 255 00:15:38,276 --> 00:15:41,476 Speaker 1: something in the moment, you have to do something now 256 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 1: to lock it down. I'm really interested, maybe not so 257 00:15:46,596 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 1: much in alternative policing, but I want to talk about 258 00:15:50,596 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 1: alternatives to police. I think. So let's let's let's talk 259 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:59,116 Speaker 1: about safety and justice and what that looks like without policing. Yes, 260 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:03,676 Speaker 1: safety and justice without policing. Well, put, that's right, because 261 00:16:03,676 --> 00:16:06,716 Speaker 1: people want those things, but they're having a hard time 262 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 1: trying to get there without police playing a big role. Yo, 263 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:30,956 Speaker 1: so Khalil in the aftermath of the shooting in Hyde Park, 264 00:16:31,956 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 1: the murder in Hyde Park, I guess you know, the 265 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 1: robbery and killing and another stabbing murder in Hyde Park 266 00:16:38,916 --> 00:16:40,956 Speaker 1: all in one day, and the general uptick and crime 267 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:43,636 Speaker 1: that's been going on everywhere, right, Yeah, one I think 268 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:45,476 Speaker 1: that's been real clear to me is just like people 269 00:16:45,676 --> 00:16:51,116 Speaker 1: need some kind of response to it, and they need 270 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:53,396 Speaker 1: a sense of safety, and that could come in all 271 00:16:53,396 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 1: sorts of forms. There's that demand for a sense of 272 00:16:55,836 --> 00:17:02,116 Speaker 1: accountability or writing the moral balance. And here here in 273 00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:07,116 Speaker 1: Hyde Park, after those crimes, what was offered was more policing. Yeah, 274 00:17:07,196 --> 00:17:09,476 Speaker 1: a lot a lot more cops. Right. I mean my 275 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:11,836 Speaker 1: mom the other night over dinner, she looked at me 276 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:17,996 Speaker 1: and she was like, you know, this is terrible. You know, 277 00:17:18,076 --> 00:17:20,756 Speaker 1: she mentioned Donald Trump's call for the National Guard a 278 00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:23,876 Speaker 1: few years ago and said something to the effect of, like, 279 00:17:24,196 --> 00:17:27,396 Speaker 1: you know, maybe Donald Trump was right about that, right 280 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:29,956 Speaker 1: for the wrong reasons, because he really didn't care about Chicago. 281 00:17:30,036 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: But maybe since the police are failing, the national Guard 282 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:35,876 Speaker 1: can do better. Yeah, And she said it in a 283 00:17:35,956 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 1: way that she's like, and I know you don't agree, 284 00:17:39,876 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: but she was also daring me to have a better response. Yeah. 285 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 1: I think I might have told you this. I'm not sure, 286 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:49,036 Speaker 1: but you know, my brother Jake, who runs a music 287 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: venue in the neighborhood just just a block from where 288 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:56,516 Speaker 1: that shooting happened, Romatory. The Friday after the shooting, he 289 00:17:56,596 --> 00:17:59,756 Speaker 1: was having a show there, a concert that happened to 290 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:04,356 Speaker 1: be a rap act, you know, and the police essentially 291 00:18:04,356 --> 00:18:07,436 Speaker 1: showed up and we're like, na, na, if you have 292 00:18:07,556 --> 00:18:12,636 Speaker 1: this show and and and anything happens anywhere in the 293 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:15,996 Speaker 1: neighborhood at any time afterward, we're gonna hold you accountable. 294 00:18:16,076 --> 00:18:17,956 Speaker 1: And so he had to postpone the show. Is that 295 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:22,556 Speaker 1: even lawful? For real? Though? I mean, I mean this 296 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:25,396 Speaker 1: in asking that question is just a little tip of 297 00:18:25,436 --> 00:18:28,716 Speaker 1: the spear of where the slippery slope ends up. So 298 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:31,676 Speaker 1: I mean just to kind of put a put a 299 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:34,356 Speaker 1: pen on this point. So you know, this is in 300 00:18:34,396 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 1: many ways hot spot policing. As the entire neighborhood of 301 00:18:39,116 --> 00:18:42,036 Speaker 1: Hyde Park, this is basically the idea that you have 302 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:45,516 Speaker 1: a hot spot right an area where we've identified a 303 00:18:45,556 --> 00:18:48,956 Speaker 1: lot of crime happening in a concentrated space. And in 304 00:18:48,996 --> 00:18:51,516 Speaker 1: the tradition of hot spot policing that's been going on 305 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:56,156 Speaker 1: for about twenty five years now, this community, our community, 306 00:18:56,196 --> 00:19:00,396 Speaker 1: which hasn't really experienced this level of intensified, spectacular violence 307 00:19:00,996 --> 00:19:04,596 Speaker 1: now is saying we want all these things that we've 308 00:19:04,636 --> 00:19:08,316 Speaker 1: tried in what's called high crime areas that are often 309 00:19:08,356 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 1: low income can munities, often with black and brown. So 310 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:13,836 Speaker 1: that's what's been presented here. Let's you and I talk 311 00:19:13,916 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 1: about some other alternatives to policing, not alternative policing, but 312 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 1: alternatives two policing. Right, we know to your point, like, 313 00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:24,996 Speaker 1: we know that the menu of options is actually much 314 00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:28,516 Speaker 1: greater than what we're even hearing in our own home community. 315 00:19:28,716 --> 00:19:30,716 Speaker 1: All right, so let's let's let's run through it. Let's 316 00:19:30,756 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 1: run through the menu. That's right. Let's call these the 317 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:40,236 Speaker 1: shovel ready immediate responses, okay, ding ding ding, already immediate responses. No, 318 00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:44,996 Speaker 1: because when you like that, when you think about opportunity 319 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: out of crisis, um, you think about like what's on 320 00:19:48,436 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 1: the shelf that we can we can mobilize at this moment, 321 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 1: and maybe we're hardwired as a long term fix us. Okay, 322 00:19:56,996 --> 00:20:00,596 Speaker 1: go for it. Violence interruption, Yes, yes, I think. I 323 00:20:00,636 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: think in fact, if we were playing a version of 324 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 1: a family feud, that would be the number one answer. 325 00:20:08,636 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 1: Why is at the case Because the very concept of 326 00:20:12,116 --> 00:20:16,956 Speaker 1: putting people who already live in a community in charge 327 00:20:16,956 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 1: of conflict mediation, who have trustworthy relationships with members of 328 00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:25,716 Speaker 1: the community, who can go to them and say, hey, 329 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:28,076 Speaker 1: I've got a problem with so and so, and if 330 00:20:28,116 --> 00:20:30,916 Speaker 1: someone doesn't help me fix it, you know, there's gonna 331 00:20:30,916 --> 00:20:34,076 Speaker 1: be there's gonna be drama, there's gonna be violence, and 332 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:36,596 Speaker 1: we need to figure out a way to stop this 333 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:39,956 Speaker 1: before it happens. And this is a twenty year old, 334 00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:46,156 Speaker 1: proven approach to violence mediation, and it's it's working in Chicago, 335 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 1: it's working in Baltimore, it's working in New York City. 336 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:51,316 Speaker 1: I've seen it up close with my own eyes, and 337 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:57,356 Speaker 1: it's been discussed in some ways nationally. Not enough, but yeah, 338 00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:00,516 Speaker 1: I mean, so we have to invest hugely in community 339 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:05,356 Speaker 1: violence interruption. It's proven, it's empirically strong and it works. Okay, 340 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 1: So second on the menu. So the fact is that 341 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 1: about probably more than ninety percent of what police respond 342 00:21:12,116 --> 00:21:15,476 Speaker 1: to our non violent offenses. And so that's right, and 343 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 1: sometimes the numbers are as low as five percent, I mean, 344 00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:22,516 Speaker 1: in terms of what they actually record calls for service, Right, 345 00:21:22,556 --> 00:21:26,796 Speaker 1: that's the data we have for when police actually are 346 00:21:26,876 --> 00:21:30,116 Speaker 1: responding to somewhat member of the public saying I need help, 347 00:21:30,396 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 1: About five percent or less of those often are for 348 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:36,436 Speaker 1: something that we call So there's another solution, which is 349 00:21:36,476 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: that for first responders to mental health crises, to homelessness cases, 350 00:21:42,316 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 1: to many drug cases, to even traffic stops. You could 351 00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:48,676 Speaker 1: send people who are experts in those and who are 352 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 1: not armed police officers. You can have a different set 353 00:21:51,916 --> 00:21:54,996 Speaker 1: of first responders. That's right. This is just about people 354 00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:58,636 Speaker 1: who need help, and in a society, particularly in communities 355 00:21:58,676 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 1: that are star for resources, it just isn't a whole 356 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 1: lot of infrastructure. If if you need help, if you've 357 00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 1: got somebody in distress, if you need I mean, I know, 358 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:11,116 Speaker 1: in our own suburban community, police officers literally, I mean 359 00:22:11,156 --> 00:22:14,156 Speaker 1: like the old classic case of my cat crawled up 360 00:22:14,156 --> 00:22:15,916 Speaker 1: into a tree, could you help get my cat out 361 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:19,116 Speaker 1: of the tree. I know this for a fact because 362 00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:21,276 Speaker 1: we've I've been at meetings where people have talked about 363 00:22:21,276 --> 00:22:23,076 Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is that the police have to do 364 00:22:23,116 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: this kind of But you know when people talk about 365 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:29,796 Speaker 1: the fund, if there's a limited pool of money, that 366 00:22:30,196 --> 00:22:33,076 Speaker 1: more of that money would go to these alternatives, these 367 00:22:33,076 --> 00:22:35,716 Speaker 1: other responders, rather than to arm police officers to take 368 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:37,556 Speaker 1: on these cases, which they have not been trained in 369 00:22:37,596 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 1: many cases to do almost in all cases. They're not 370 00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:43,036 Speaker 1: mental health experts, they're not social service workers, those kinds 371 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:45,876 Speaker 1: of things that's right, and so this is something that's 372 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: also been been done in cities and states across the country. Yes. 373 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:52,196 Speaker 1: A third thing on the menu is something that actually 374 00:22:52,236 --> 00:22:55,396 Speaker 1: some of my neighbors brought up here in response to 375 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:59,836 Speaker 1: the recent spate of crime, and that's having more positive loitering. So, 376 00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: you know, one of my neighbors talked about having ambassadors 377 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:06,476 Speaker 1: going out on the street and definitely not a community 378 00:23:06,516 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 1: watch and definitely not something to call the police on people, 379 00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:12,396 Speaker 1: but just to be present on corners and to meet 380 00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:15,396 Speaker 1: people and to build community. This is something that also 381 00:23:15,556 --> 00:23:18,516 Speaker 1: happens in Englewood, the neighborhood where we discussed in the 382 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 1: episode with Tanika Johnson fighting and equities throughout. Yes, yeah, 383 00:23:22,076 --> 00:23:23,556 Speaker 1: that that and you know there were a group of 384 00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: mothers that hang out on corners on Fridays and Saturday 385 00:23:26,436 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: nights to make sure that that violence doesn't happen. This 386 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:31,676 Speaker 1: is a way to build community and to strengthen the 387 00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 1: bonds in different neighborhoods. Yeah, yeah, so, I mean it's 388 00:23:35,156 --> 00:23:39,316 Speaker 1: a the sociologists call this collective efficacy and uh, and 389 00:23:39,396 --> 00:23:43,916 Speaker 1: some of my own colleagues have written a lot about this. Basically, 390 00:23:43,956 --> 00:23:49,796 Speaker 1: communities that have thriving nonprofit organizations that are doing art activities, 391 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,716 Speaker 1: that are doing youth based activities where there's just a 392 00:23:52,756 --> 00:23:57,636 Speaker 1: lot of rich social engagement, and that it often is 393 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:01,956 Speaker 1: taking place in public spaces. Often is not just a 394 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:05,676 Speaker 1: deterrent to crimes of opportunity, but also is a sign 395 00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:09,716 Speaker 1: of community well being and this kind of a virtuous cycle. So, 396 00:24:09,956 --> 00:24:12,436 Speaker 1: you know, we presented these ideas, but none of them 397 00:24:12,476 --> 00:24:14,476 Speaker 1: are really going to get us to like, you know, 398 00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:18,476 Speaker 1: deeper structural changes. They're not going to get us there 399 00:24:18,516 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: in terms of public safety. Right, you know, people have 400 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:24,076 Speaker 1: been out of work, they've been out of school, they've 401 00:24:24,436 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: they've seen the unequal responses to the pandemic. And this 402 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:31,876 Speaker 1: is on you know, the tail end of police violence 403 00:24:31,956 --> 00:24:35,676 Speaker 1: and for closure crisis and closed schools and closed hospitals 404 00:24:35,676 --> 00:24:40,516 Speaker 1: and closed mental health facilities. And you know, this idea 405 00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 1: that you you treat the effect of all those causes, 406 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:48,276 Speaker 1: which is violence, the uptick and violence that we're seeing 407 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:51,796 Speaker 1: in Chicago and everywhere, and and don't look at any 408 00:24:51,796 --> 00:24:55,796 Speaker 1: of the causes seems crazy. Let's lean into this idea, like, 409 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 1: let's imagine government pushing and doing all the things we want. 410 00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:03,316 Speaker 1: Let's imagine the structural changes. You know, it sounds like 411 00:25:03,356 --> 00:25:06,396 Speaker 1: build back better, right, and buildback better a little bit 412 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:09,476 Speaker 1: tongue in cheek, but I mean honestly, when we think 413 00:25:09,516 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 1: about what an infra infrastructure would mean, that would be 414 00:25:14,356 --> 00:25:21,116 Speaker 1: bottom up, would start with communities most in need of resources, 415 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:27,396 Speaker 1: of jobs, of affordable housing, of education, of education, of 416 00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:31,716 Speaker 1: treating trauma, of a clean, green economy. But all those 417 00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 1: things those lead to public safety. Correct, That's how you 418 00:25:36,676 --> 00:25:40,236 Speaker 1: fight crime. That way to fight crime is to invest 419 00:25:40,276 --> 00:25:43,116 Speaker 1: in housing, to invest in education, to invest in health, 420 00:25:43,156 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 1: to invest in trauma reduction, universal healthcare. Right. That is 421 00:25:48,036 --> 00:25:52,356 Speaker 1: on the ticket of long term solutions to helping people 422 00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:55,756 Speaker 1: not need the police. Right. So what this means practically 423 00:25:55,756 --> 00:26:00,196 Speaker 1: speaking is these are actually the things that we ought 424 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:04,276 Speaker 1: to do in this moment in High Park, in Englewood 425 00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: in other places when we want to answer the question 426 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 1: what should we do to minimize the chance that people 427 00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:16,356 Speaker 1: will use guns to settle differences, will act out in 428 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 1: public by spraying up whole communities, and we'll feel the 429 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:22,756 Speaker 1: frustrations of their societies by taking them out on their 430 00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:26,596 Speaker 1: loved ones when they don't have social service or mental 431 00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 1: health professionals to talk to first, these other responses, I 432 00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:31,556 Speaker 1: think we've got to lean into that, right, We got 433 00:26:31,556 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: to say here is your answer, right, and and we 434 00:26:35,316 --> 00:26:37,476 Speaker 1: need a lot more and we need a lot more 435 00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 1: right And Yeah, all of those, like you said, are 436 00:26:39,596 --> 00:26:43,116 Speaker 1: critical and they're incredibly useful. They're not only useful, they 437 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 1: work right the wor they stopped the harm before it happens, 438 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 1: at the point of the breakdown, right when something'll go down. 439 00:26:49,396 --> 00:26:51,636 Speaker 1: So so if I'm you know, I'm worried about crime 440 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:55,236 Speaker 1: in my neighborhood and i want something immediate, and I'm 441 00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:58,836 Speaker 1: scared right now. And you know, two jokers on this 442 00:26:58,876 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: podcast say, well, you need big structural changes. You know, 443 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:05,996 Speaker 1: that sounds almost like pie in the sky stuff. It 444 00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:10,716 Speaker 1: sounds like it'll never happen. It sounds impossible. And just 445 00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:14,276 Speaker 1: you know, hearing you talk and thinking about this made 446 00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:17,996 Speaker 1: me think about the work that you do as a historian, 447 00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:23,076 Speaker 1: and that these kinds of investments are not only possible, 448 00:27:23,716 --> 00:27:27,276 Speaker 1: but it's proven that they lead to public safety, that 449 00:27:27,356 --> 00:27:30,876 Speaker 1: they lead to crime reduction. Yeah. Absolutely absolutely, I mean, 450 00:27:32,276 --> 00:27:34,356 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for setting me up to talk 451 00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:36,996 Speaker 1: about the condemnation of blackness. But you know, the short 452 00:27:37,076 --> 00:27:40,276 Speaker 1: version of this is at a time an American short version, 453 00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 1: short version. Yeah, when white people were killing each other 454 00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 1: on the streets of Chicago. When are we talking about here, 455 00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:50,236 Speaker 1: we're talking about We're talking about the early twentieth century, 456 00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:53,596 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century. With huge economic inequalities. 457 00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:56,516 Speaker 1: White immigrants were struggling. They were subject to all kinds 458 00:27:56,516 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: of racist attacks and stigma attached to them. Eventually, this 459 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 1: got so bad that that prohibition was passed, you know, 460 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:07,996 Speaker 1: like ding ding ding, massive effort to lock up everybody 461 00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:10,916 Speaker 1: having anything to do with alcohol distributes, like a precursor 462 00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:16,676 Speaker 1: to War on drugs, right, massive failure. It criminalized the 463 00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: massive numbers of low income, working class white people that 464 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: were committing a lot of crime. To be sure, there 465 00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:24,476 Speaker 1: was a lot of violence in those communities, but the 466 00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:28,396 Speaker 1: social response, what was the response was the social response 467 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 1: was massive investments in those communities that led from the 468 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:36,236 Speaker 1: progressive era to the New Deal. They got they got housing, 469 00:28:36,396 --> 00:28:41,076 Speaker 1: they got economic security through through various rights as workers, 470 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 1: we got unemployment insurance, we got social security, they got 471 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:50,036 Speaker 1: access to the American dream with homes. We got police reform. Um. 472 00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:52,596 Speaker 1: I mean, we could run down the list of all 473 00:28:52,636 --> 00:28:55,036 Speaker 1: the things that most people know about as kind of 474 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:58,076 Speaker 1: the new Deal, the same stuff that is inspiring build 475 00:28:58,076 --> 00:29:00,836 Speaker 1: back better today and all kinds of infrastructure. But what 476 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:04,636 Speaker 1: people don't realize is a lot of that was absolutely 477 00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:09,396 Speaker 1: a direct response to crime in white working class as 478 00:29:09,396 --> 00:29:13,356 Speaker 1: and immigrant communities, and it was a massive crime solution response. 479 00:29:13,676 --> 00:29:17,956 Speaker 1: So it worked, and it worked. So thank you for that, professor. 480 00:29:18,236 --> 00:29:22,636 Speaker 1: You're welcome. H Let's talk more about today how we 481 00:29:22,676 --> 00:29:26,076 Speaker 1: get structural change, Like, how can we possibly get this 482 00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:28,556 Speaker 1: structural change that's going to lead to reduction and crime? 483 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 1: And one of the ways we do it is through protest, right, 484 00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,516 Speaker 1: That's right, It is a key. I mean, man, you 485 00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:41,916 Speaker 1: are you are on fire today, that's right? I know, yeah, 486 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 1: of course right. No, No massive change in society happens 487 00:29:47,276 --> 00:29:52,756 Speaker 1: without people in the streets demanding demand, demanding people organize 488 00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:56,156 Speaker 1: people to agree upon what it is that they want 489 00:29:56,156 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 1: to see change. When have we seen this before? Yeah? Yeah, 490 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 1: I mean this gets us back to the summer of 491 00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:04,156 Speaker 1: twenty twenty and all the protests, and you know, after 492 00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,876 Speaker 1: George Floyd is killed by police, Brianna Taylor was killed 493 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:10,356 Speaker 1: by police, Jacob Blake is killed by police. Yeah, like 494 00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:16,396 Speaker 1: massive organizing to change society for the better, and then 495 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 1: we get like crazy police cracked down and we get 496 00:30:20,436 --> 00:30:24,756 Speaker 1: white self deputized men like Kyle Rittenhouse. I mean, like 497 00:30:24,756 --> 00:30:28,876 Speaker 1: like literally as the response to the possibility of actually 498 00:30:28,956 --> 00:30:32,636 Speaker 1: changing these things in a in a big structural way. Yeah. Yeah, 499 00:30:32,636 --> 00:30:37,516 Speaker 1: And you know, we were recording earlier, and while we 500 00:30:37,516 --> 00:30:40,716 Speaker 1: were recording, we got news of the verdict in his case, 501 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:44,116 Speaker 1: in Kyle Riddenhouse's case, that he was acquitted of all charges. Yeah. 502 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:47,876 Speaker 1: It was disturbing because we were in the middle of 503 00:30:47,916 --> 00:30:50,636 Speaker 1: talking about all of these issues and yeah, and we 504 00:30:50,636 --> 00:30:54,356 Speaker 1: were just sort of completely dumbfounded by it and sort 505 00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:58,996 Speaker 1: of overwhelmed. Yeah, I mean, it is still hard to 506 00:30:59,036 --> 00:31:05,236 Speaker 1: fathom that when Kyle Riddenhouse can be acquitted for arming 507 00:31:05,316 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 1: himself to be willing to shoot protesters who are protesting 508 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:13,836 Speaker 1: or racial justice and an into police brutality, that he 509 00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 1: doesn't symbolize a society at large. It privileges police power 510 00:31:20,276 --> 00:31:26,036 Speaker 1: over protests. And so to me, part of the challenge 511 00:31:26,036 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 1: for us at this moment and taking stock of our 512 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:31,316 Speaker 1: own community, taking stock of where we are, is that 513 00:31:31,716 --> 00:31:34,716 Speaker 1: a lot of good things are happening in spite of 514 00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:39,476 Speaker 1: all of this. Yeah, it also prioritizes policing over healthcare 515 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 1: and education and housing and all sorts of things that also, 516 00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:48,316 Speaker 1: as we know, reduce crime. Yeah, or even back to 517 00:31:48,596 --> 00:31:51,876 Speaker 1: public health interventions, like all these other menu of choices 518 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 1: keep falling prey to the immediate need to say we 519 00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:02,276 Speaker 1: need policing, and yet in so many ways, as we've 520 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:05,316 Speaker 1: just talked about, it's not going to get us there, 521 00:32:05,356 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 1: and in fact it's a source of the problem. Yeah, 522 00:32:22,196 --> 00:32:24,756 Speaker 1: it's easy to feel a lot of despair. I mean, 523 00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 1: it's sort of in the you know, hearing the Kyle 524 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:31,956 Speaker 1: Rittenhouse verdict. Overwhelmed by crime. I've got neighbors who are 525 00:32:31,996 --> 00:32:34,716 Speaker 1: talking about leaving Chicago. Yeah. Yeah, you sent me that 526 00:32:35,236 --> 00:32:38,196 Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune report about like hundreds of thousand, two hundred 527 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:40,236 Speaker 1: and something thousand by people, like two hundred fifty thousand 528 00:32:40,276 --> 00:32:42,316 Speaker 1: in the last twenty years, two hundred and sixty thousand 529 00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 1: plus one, including two hundred and sixty thousand and one. 530 00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:49,916 Speaker 1: You know, it sucks, Yeah, you know, And and it's 531 00:32:49,916 --> 00:32:53,076 Speaker 1: hard to think about these these big structural changes. You know, 532 00:32:53,236 --> 00:32:57,156 Speaker 1: it's hard to you know, when when the crisis feels 533 00:32:57,276 --> 00:33:00,876 Speaker 1: right now. But I gotta say that there is a 534 00:33:00,916 --> 00:33:04,236 Speaker 1: sign of progress from maybe from those protests from twenty twenty. 535 00:33:04,356 --> 00:33:08,076 Speaker 1: It doesn't happen all at once, it happens over time, right, Yeah, 536 00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:10,196 Speaker 1: and maybe may be you and I have to be 537 00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:16,156 Speaker 1: more patient with people as funds. Yeah, we have to. 538 00:33:16,236 --> 00:33:18,436 Speaker 1: We have to keep you. But I mean, I mean, like, yeah, 539 00:33:19,116 --> 00:33:24,316 Speaker 1: but I right, but like making the case requires some 540 00:33:24,396 --> 00:33:27,916 Speaker 1: degree of patients for people who have this existential sense 541 00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:31,276 Speaker 1: of crisis, like I can't send my kid to school 542 00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:34,596 Speaker 1: right now, um, like Lysia's friends, like you know, you 543 00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 1: have to come home immediately. That there is that immediacy. 544 00:33:37,636 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 1: And I think I think what we what we want 545 00:33:40,916 --> 00:33:44,236 Speaker 1: to say in response, what we've said just now is 546 00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:47,516 Speaker 1: that you can do both. And I mean, and that's 547 00:33:47,516 --> 00:33:50,836 Speaker 1: like you need to do. You need to focus on 548 00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:54,116 Speaker 1: the things we can do, which are these public health 549 00:33:54,276 --> 00:34:00,516 Speaker 1: violence interruption responses, redirecting actual public resources towards the actual 550 00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:03,796 Speaker 1: service providers social workers who can take care of most 551 00:34:03,796 --> 00:34:08,796 Speaker 1: of what people need and make long term investments in 552 00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:12,316 Speaker 1: actually changing the conditions that produce and breed violence in 553 00:34:12,356 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 1: the Yeah, and you know, you know what you're saying 554 00:34:15,316 --> 00:34:18,836 Speaker 1: is I think that listen, we can't wait for some 555 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:21,196 Speaker 1: pie in the sky utopia we can't wait for like 556 00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 1: everything to be solved in order to like delve into 557 00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:27,796 Speaker 1: this important structural work, these big changes that has to 558 00:34:27,796 --> 00:34:29,836 Speaker 1: happen right now, Like we're not going to get to 559 00:34:29,916 --> 00:34:33,276 Speaker 1: some magical time when there's no violent crime. Yeah. Well, 560 00:34:33,356 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 1: I would say it actually even differently, I would say, one, 561 00:34:36,476 --> 00:34:42,396 Speaker 1: it's not utopic to see what most communities look like 562 00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:47,996 Speaker 1: where murders happen, you know, every decade or so or 563 00:34:48,076 --> 00:34:50,796 Speaker 1: once a year, Right, That's not an abstraction. That's very 564 00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 1: real in tons of communities across this Country's it describes 565 00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:58,516 Speaker 1: mostly the community I live in, but everything else that 566 00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:02,516 Speaker 1: also describes this community is a community with tremendous economic resources, 567 00:35:02,556 --> 00:35:07,276 Speaker 1: tremendous economic security, a community where where people have most 568 00:35:07,276 --> 00:35:10,836 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about your suburb, New Jersey. Yeah, 569 00:35:10,836 --> 00:35:12,876 Speaker 1: I'm talking about my suburb. But it's just it's just 570 00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:15,116 Speaker 1: one of many and that, and they're not all suburbs. 571 00:35:15,116 --> 00:35:17,876 Speaker 1: Sometimes there are even neighborhoods inside of cities like your own, 572 00:35:17,956 --> 00:35:22,876 Speaker 1: like like part parts of parts of Chicago. Yeah. So, 573 00:35:22,876 --> 00:35:25,276 Speaker 1: so I think we have, you know, we have to 574 00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:31,036 Speaker 1: work to demystify this notion that there is a way 575 00:35:31,076 --> 00:35:35,076 Speaker 1: to invest in people and not policing that we want 576 00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:38,876 Speaker 1: to invest in the actual people because we know we 577 00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:41,036 Speaker 1: have all the evidence. We need to know that we're 578 00:35:41,076 --> 00:35:42,756 Speaker 1: not doing a very good job of it, and we 579 00:35:43,076 --> 00:35:44,556 Speaker 1: need to We need to do it now. We need 580 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:47,556 Speaker 1: to do it now. We need to stay right and 581 00:35:47,596 --> 00:35:50,356 Speaker 1: as long as and as long as we think that 582 00:35:50,556 --> 00:35:53,596 Speaker 1: this moment is unique, like no, no, no, Khalil and Ben, 583 00:35:54,036 --> 00:35:56,956 Speaker 1: this is this is such a crazy moment of bullet 584 00:35:56,996 --> 00:35:59,356 Speaker 1: flying everywhere that we just need There's always going to 585 00:35:59,396 --> 00:36:04,556 Speaker 1: be there's always there's les people that's right, you know it. 586 00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:07,396 Speaker 1: There's there's always going to be the worst case scenario 587 00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:11,476 Speaker 1: that says on. Fortunately, you know, we just have to 588 00:36:11,516 --> 00:36:14,156 Speaker 1: do these things and police are going to be the 589 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:17,516 Speaker 1: people who protect us. All right, my man, all right, 590 00:36:17,796 --> 00:36:29,236 Speaker 1: love you man too. Some of My Best Friends Are 591 00:36:29,436 --> 00:36:32,956 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written 592 00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:36,276 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Khalildbron Mohammed, and my best friend 593 00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:40,236 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff Vincent and edited by 594 00:36:40,316 --> 00:36:45,516 Speaker 1: Karen Shakerji. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez. Our associate editor 595 00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:50,036 Speaker 1: is Keishell Williams. Our associate producer is Lucy Sullivan and 596 00:36:50,116 --> 00:36:53,876 Speaker 1: our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Leta 597 00:36:54,076 --> 00:36:58,316 Speaker 1: Molad and Mia La Belle. Special thanks to Sophia King 598 00:36:58,596 --> 00:37:02,716 Speaker 1: My Alderman, to Dereka Purnell, the author of Becoming Abolitionist, 599 00:37:02,996 --> 00:37:06,316 Speaker 1: Police Protest and the Pursuit of Freedom, and to my 600 00:37:06,396 --> 00:37:09,396 Speaker 1: state Senator Robert Peters, who also spoke to us for 601 00:37:09,396 --> 00:37:13,916 Speaker 1: this episode. At Pushkin Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Nigliori, 602 00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:18,076 Speaker 1: John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, 603 00:37:18,356 --> 00:37:21,596 Speaker 1: is by Fellow Chicago and AVERYR. Young from his amazing 604 00:37:21,596 --> 00:37:24,396 Speaker 1: album Tubman. You will definitely want to check out more 605 00:37:24,396 --> 00:37:27,916 Speaker 1: of his music at his website averyar Young dot com. 606 00:37:28,076 --> 00:37:31,676 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, 607 00:37:31,876 --> 00:37:34,316 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 608 00:37:34,396 --> 00:37:38,156 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 609 00:37:38,236 --> 00:37:42,436 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 610 00:37:42,836 --> 00:37:45,036 Speaker 1: If you love some of my best friends are in 611 00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:49,236 Speaker 1: any of the other shows from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing 612 00:37:49,236 --> 00:37:54,316 Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that 613 00:37:54,396 --> 00:37:58,636 Speaker 1: offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars and 614 00:37:58,756 --> 00:38:01,156 Speaker 1: ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on 615 00:38:01,236 --> 00:38:04,956 Speaker 1: Apple podcast subscriptions. If you like this show, please give 616 00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:08,196 Speaker 1: it a five star review, and please tell some of 617 00:38:08,196 --> 00:38:10,676 Speaker 1: your best friends about it, like a lot of your 618 00:38:10,716 --> 00:38:13,636 Speaker 1: best friends, all of your best friends, all of your 619 00:38:13,636 --> 00:38:46,476 Speaker 1: best friends. Now, yeah, I mean from as far as 620 00:38:46,636 --> 00:38:49,836 Speaker 1: a lot of research goes. And this is my Balllywick 621 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:53,716 Speaker 1: at a policy school. That's right, balllywick, new word of 622 00:38:53,716 --> 00:38:57,356 Speaker 1: the day, man, That's how people talk at Harvard. Is that? 623 00:38:57,636 --> 00:39:05,596 Speaker 1: Excuse me, sir? This is my Balllywick today. You know. No, no, 624 00:39:05,716 --> 00:39:09,236 Speaker 1: that's my Balllywick. So all right, all right, we got it, 625 00:39:09,316 --> 00:39:12,156 Speaker 1: we got it, we got it. M