WEBVTT - #065 Jason Flom with Kerry Porter 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.680 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.680 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.000 corrough people, I wasn't going to breb anyone to get 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.840 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.400 Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.480 a little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:18.560 This is a wrongful conviction. Welcome back. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.160 To Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me, and today 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.399 we have an amazing guy. Carrie Porter is our guests 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.640 on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.360 Thank you, Jason, thank you very much for having me here. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.040 Now, I got to tell you carry even though I've 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:33.960 been doing this kind of work for about twenty five years, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.440 when I was I had to read your story several 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.000 times because he's got more twists and turns than a 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:40.000 John Grishall novel. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.720 That's funny you say that because my child, judge Thomas 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.280 Wan is now Conwell attorney, and he said he mentioned 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.320 that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom's movie. 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.360 Okay, well, so, John, if you're listening very much in 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.640 the right, but your case has love trying, It has 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:05.000 mistaken witness identification, it has perjury, it has false accusations, 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:09.200 it has corruption at the highest levels, it has cover ups, 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.680 it has I mean, it's got so many factors that 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.840 you know and and you know, and then murders happening 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.800 left and right around that would have pointed arrows in 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:25.120 different directions. And you know, I mean insurance claims and 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.040 questions and like I mean it's really we're going to 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.200 try to unravel this for the audience. 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.640 Today, so everyone's gonna have to really follow along because 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:33.520 this is crazy. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.120 Good luck if we do that. The only I still have, The. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.680 Only thing I can promise is that there's a happy ending, 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.040 you know, because there is. 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.520 Yes, there is first night. 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.040 A loibl man free from prison after fourteen years for 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.240 a crime he didn't commit. Terrry Porter has a new 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.960 look at life thanks to these seven works. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.280 Mister Porter did not commit this offense. 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.320 The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted for the 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.280 nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.600 to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation. 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.800 A key witness, Francois Cunningham, said Porter was set up 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:12.760 for Camp's murder. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:15.360 And I've seen you. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:17.480 It's amazing, and we're going to get right into the story. 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.080 But I've seen you speak on video, I saw you 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.640 do a press conference, and you know, you really have 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.480 a remarkable spirit, and you know, I know you've done 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.040 a lot of work trying to help prevent these things 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.240 from happening to other people, and you know, you have 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.280 all my respect for everything that you're doing. 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.000 Thank you as you man. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.040 Okay, well, so let's get right into it. So you're 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:42.400 from Louisville, Kentucky, grew up on the same street as 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:43.240 Muhammad Aldi. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:44.960 Yes, soy fourth and Grand. 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.520 And you actually got to meet the legend that one. 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.520 Oh yes, yes, Cagon actually, yes, the greatest, the greatest. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.560 The first time was in the seventies when this job 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:53.080 was broke. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.800 Wow, amazing, what a story. 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.920 And so in the mid nineties, Well, what was Louisville 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.000 like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:04.920 in Louisville. 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.800 Yes, I have the in ninety six that was the 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.440 first risese of the murder rate. I have the sixty 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.960 eight people got killed, and I have the last body 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.239 to Tyrone count whilst his life December to twenty seventh 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.479 or nineteen ninety six, and ironically they charged me with 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.279 the last body. But in May to June, the mayor 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.040 had to get on TV and assure the public that 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:40.120 these murder investigations would be immediately handled, expedingly and professionally 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.120 and everything else, and that assurance went out the door. 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.920 Well yeah, so what he was basically saying is we'll 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.080 get these solved, right, or wrong. Right, we're just gonna 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.520 get We're gonna make everybody feel comfortable, even though you 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.520 should feel very uncomfortable because a real killer might well 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:54.080 be out there. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.640 Well, politics has tales no better tal. 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.800 There you go, so solet's go. Let's go to this 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:01.159 crazy case. 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:01.800 Right. 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:06.719 So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:08.920 a thirty five year old man, And can you explain 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.960 the whole circumstance and how the connections led to you? 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.919 And there was a witness that wasn't sure then he was. 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.080 I mean, the whole thing is like, but you take 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.520 us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this, 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:22.680 right And like I always say to my guest, I'm 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.080 happier here, but I'm sorry you're here. Yeah anyway, But okay, 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.360 so let's go back to this murder in nineteen ninety 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:30.359 six of Tyrone Camp. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:37.680 Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boy's mama, Cecilia Sanders. 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.280 Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Kirkpatrick. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.600 We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.200 for nine years in which we had little carry at 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.960 the time that our leftlow carry because of Drew my 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:53.760 drug use. 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:55.720 Little Carry was five years old. 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.839 So Tyrone Camp came along and he was a far 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.120 better man than I and I science over parental's rights, 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.480 and I think ninety three, I thought, because I did 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:10.240 time for child support, well, Tyrone was raising my son, 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.760 doing a real good job of it. What Kerry was 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:18.040 accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone didn't 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.000 know how to do any of that. So he found 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.880 out how to do it and stuff and had little 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.400 Kerry up on his wings as if he was me, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.520 despite him never doing that before in his life. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:31.479 So little Kerry got the love in him. 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:36.279 And on December to twenty seven, his little Kerry's mama's 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.120 involved in what appears that she is one of the 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.160 person did more than likely she's the person adventures in 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:45.559 the death of Tyrone Camp. 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.640 And what was the motivation here? And who I mean? 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.840 Obviously it's still speculation because there hadn't been any real 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.240 not any real serious reinvestigation ever since you got out, 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:58.840 which is now several years ago, but which is a 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.800 very I mean, I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.400 and very powerfully on this topic. Yeah, and it's it's 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.279 a it's a heavy topic. But because like I said, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.160 it involves cover ups and corruption at the highest levels. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:12.080 My goodness. 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.720 So what was the motivation and how did this because 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.040 it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone Camp 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.800 was a pretty good guy, but very good. There was 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.040 there was some insurance money involved, is that right? 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:24.600 Correct? Insurance money? 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.720 It's been rumored different things my investigation in the fifteen 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:34.520 years it took to get me out. Was it Cecilia 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:39.840 and her boyfriend Juan, the oldest Sanderu as the streets say, 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.000 scored up to anywhere from a half a million to 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.760 over a million dollars in insurance proceeds I do know, 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:52.560 and and did open records requests and manipulated the system 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.520 one we another and got a hold of records in 0:07:55.600 --> 0:08:01.280 which I seen it. Four different agency paid your money. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.920 So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.400 uh huh, because it happened in like a. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.160 Active transportation company, right in a lot, right? 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:15.040 And so was it at night six six thirty five. 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:19.640 In the mornings when he was pronounced dead, am am. 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.200 So there would have been some daylight to work. 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.560 With, not at six thirty five December. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:28.440 The service is the shortest daylight time of the year, 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.480 so Urn the twenty first is the longest. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.120 So that's an interesting one too, because of the fact 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:34.319 that this witness would not have. 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.680 Been reliable regardless right in the dark. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.880 But okay, and so the witness, Kenneth Brown Brown, he 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:43.760 changed his story a few times, is that right? 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.199 As Thomas Wyane said, And Thomas Wyne shouldn't let him 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.680 proceed to trial. He with old and he waffled, but 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.600 he foually. Family is a key word described Kerry Porter. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.160 So on top of the arrows, that would seem I 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.640 mean again, if we're writing a movie script, you know, 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.560 you'd say, well, this looks a little too obvious because 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.920 you got the insurance money, right, you got this other 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:15.480 guy Sanders right, was involved with your ex yes, right, 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:21.120 So there's a pretty powerful narrative going on there how 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.680 they might have wanted him gone, although it's hard to 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.400 believe a mother's love, you know, and being that you 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.800 described him so eloquently as such a good father to 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:29.520 your son. 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:30.959 One would think that that. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.480 Maybe that would triumph over the greed. But greed is 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:39.480 a powerful thing, very powerful, and that's a lot of money, yes, so, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:47.720 but even still the rest your arrest didn't happen right away, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.240 probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you. 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.400 No, not, not not in the beginning at all. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.800 No, right because there was you didn't stand to benefit 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:58.679 from this in any way. 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:00.560 No, and you weren't elos of them. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.640 From everything you're saying, You're actually happy that he was 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:04.440 filling the role that you at that time as a 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.520 young man. And I'm not here to judge. I mean, 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.839 I was how old were you at the time you 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:09.400 had your son? 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.800 At the time I heard Loil Kerry was twenty three. 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.800 I was a late fablem so late in Kentucky. 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:16.680 New York called that early. 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.920 But anyway, twenty three, I think a lot of people, 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.400 and a lot of people are listening probably can relate 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:23.760 to this. I think a lot of people at twenty 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:25.760 three are still trying to find themselves, much less take 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.079 care for another little being. I'm not saying that. I'm 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:31.520 not saying your behavior was great or rationalize it. But 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.360 at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.240 the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.439 didn't look like there was any real reason to There 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.240 was Additionally, nobody identifying you. And also there was no 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.959 again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one. 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.240 Anyone who watches TV would go, wait a minute, why 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.479 didn't they look at the people who had the motivation? 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.560 And that would have made more sense, especially because something 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:02.200 happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.200 that trail. Very good, correct, yes, But by then they 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:06.880 had arrested you. And let's get to it because that 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:08.839 seven months is a very interesting twist in this. 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.360 It's a key factor. It's a key factor, should have 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:12.480 been a key factor. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.000 But it wasn't right, so it wasn't so they arrested you. 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.079 I mean, why do you think they did that? 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.560 And when they arrested me February to twenty, and their 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.640 alleged motive was that I was jealous that Tyrone Camp 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:31.120 had stole my girls as stated in the opening statement, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.719 and that raising my kid. That was a motive for 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.839 trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney Kidd's investigation. 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.200 That's supposed to have been that I had prior in 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:48.280 nineteen ninety one, I had trashed so Siia's apartment in 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.559 which me and me carry and Cecilia was supposed to 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.640 have been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming over on 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.000 the weekends. So sal has been involved in several loved true, 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.520 she transferred from one guy that's just doing good to 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.600 a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:08.719 That was her come up. 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.040 So that the commonwealth thought that I was the person 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.280 because of this ninety one trashing the apartment, that that's 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:21.040 created the background for the motive. The only difference, Jason, 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.880 is that that background was a five over five years old, 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.280 that it had nothing else happened in five years, and 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:33.160 that did Tyrone Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.720 did it in front of Tyrone, and it was said 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.760 that I put pulled a gun on Tyrone at that apartment, 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.439 but there was nobody there to tell their story. But 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.360 Tyrone and Tyrone count is the one that save me 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.840 on the ninety one indictment of trashing the Derbrook apartment. 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:52.880 He told them that no, Kerry did not put a 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.880 gun in my head. Kerry did not hold me hostage, 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:57.680 and Carrie had nothing against me. 0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:59.040 It was all against. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:03.679 Seals you anyway and charge you with the crime. Now again, 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.520 I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city the size. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.080 Of Loale, and I have the last body on a 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:10.079 political year. 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.000 Right, so they need they need to put a ball 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:14.080 on this one, right. 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:18.080 Hey, why not snatch anybody they had with all of 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.840 this background that they had on me, that that to 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.480 me gave them probable calls to come after me. Just 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:30.319 got out of penitentiary, has a background for violence itself, 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:31.320 especially with the. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:33.240 Lags ninety one incident. 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.680 And I think that they used that ninety one in 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:41.640 my background to say, hey, look, carry's own drugs. He 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.360 just got out of penitentiary. If he put the case 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.240 on him, he'll just go down like any other drug 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.160 and dummy and won't work on this case. It backfired 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.320 on him, but it got became an easy target in 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:53.960 my opinion. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.880 But it got a little trickier because seven months later, 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:58.760 like you were talking about good. 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.360 Uh huh, you want to tell that's yes, I do 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.800 on June to thirteenth that here happens to be a 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:13.040 Friday thirteenth. So nineteen ninety seven, Cecilia Sanders, well send 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.280 your camp was involved as a getaway driver in a 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:21.040 Hemlock murder in which Juan Sanders wan Leo Sanders shot 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.160 and killed Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Antoine's mother, 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:29.800 Anita Watts. He also shot his own uncle John. They 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:35.000 called John Dirty Sanders, and he walked away with a 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.920 twelve year sentence for all these shootings. But this is 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.720 six months later after the murder of Tyrone Camp. 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.040 That should have raised arag fact to the Louisville Police. 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.280 Then it was ALPD. It should have raised a red flag. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.760 But the difference, Jason is that at the time Louisville 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:58.520 hadn't merged as Metro. It was Louisville Jeffson County Police 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:04.320 versus Louisville Loisill Downtown Police. So the county police knew 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.480 of my innocence and fought for my innocent and the 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:12.320 Louisville Police fault to frame me. Wow, that's that's deep. 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:13.520 That's a new one. 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:13.880 Yep. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.480 We've heard a lot of stories on this show, listeners. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.560 I've heard, you know, I have people telling me, man 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.480 this one that everyone has a different one that they 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.640 they point to as the craziest one. But I've never 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:29.800 heard that particular. That's so odd because you have separate entities. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:30.840 But up under the same head. 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.120 It's starting to heard from this, so you have. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.960 You're the only one who does this if so many 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.040 twists in turn, people say, how do you deal with this? 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.120 And and by the way, when I was mentioning all 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.960 the twists and turns earlier and all the I mean, 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.280 all the factors in your crazy story of being framed 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.920 and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I forgot to 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.360 mention the jail house snitch, which is a very important. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.440 Part of the story too, great gully. 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.400 Right, So, and there's a very very interesting as to 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.120 that too, which I think when everyone hears this, there's 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:04.800 gonna be a few people signed up for law school 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.480 going I want to be the guy that discovers that 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:11.280 kind of stuff, because it's great and that and that, 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.160 you know, let's let's get into this aspect of the case, 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:19.000 because so here it is. Seven months later, an inconvenient 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:25.000 truth emerges, which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.840 and Uh and Juan Sanders end up being caught red 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:35.800 handed shooting three people. And now you go, okay, so 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.240 let me just see here like this, we could be 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.040 in like eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.560 a minute, okay, but hold on, there's there's now there's 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.480 the insurance money, there's the there's the propensity to violence, 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.120 that same kind of thing. Shootings like it's really this one, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:56.120 as I say, this one comes with instructions, right, but instead, 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.320 but that being said, that didn't throw anybody off the case. 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.040 They were still ell bent on getting you. And in 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:08.080 order to do that, they found a convenient uh willing, 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.560 very willing, who was happy to make a deal. And 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.760 and this is something that I mentioned at times to time, 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:20.840 but the idea to me that everyone knows to watches 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.240 TV or has any type of education whatsoever in this country, 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.359 everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness, right, So you 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:32.000 can't go to uh, you know whatever, I see somebody 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:33.600 shoplifting or whatever. 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:34.840 It is and they bring me in. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:36.840 So that guy can't come to me and say, well, 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.359 I give you one hundred dollars, but just tell them 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.720 with somebody else, right, that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.600 a gets the law. But the government can go to 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.639 a jailhouse snitch and say, listen, I'm going to give 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:51.840 you the best bribe there is. I'm going to reduce 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:53.520 your sentence or let you give you a get out 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.560 of jail free card or whatever it is. All you 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.520 got to do is tell us the story on the 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.960 stand that Harry told you. It happens all the time. 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:04.480 Carry told you. 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.280 That he did this murder, and you're gonna go, we're 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.240 gonna be real nice to you, right, And that's exactly 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.200 what happened. And by the way, I don't even want 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:15.800 to judge that guy because I don't know what his 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:16.800 particular situation is. 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:17.960 I'm not going to excuse it. 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.960 Either, But exactly, I don't know how anybody in that situation. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:23.920 I mean, I hope I know how people would react, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.199 because it's the wrong thing to do. But it's a 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.080 difficult you know, it would require a lot of soul searching. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:31.080 If someone saying, listen, you go. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.360 Hold your family right right now, you're looking at you're 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.880 looking at ten to twenty for whatever it is our 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.840 robbery that we're gonna right and anyway, So but this 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.760 guy was happy to take the deal. And interestingly, we 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.960 know that jailhouse snitches are often used multiple times. They 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.960 get placed in cells either with or right next to 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:52.920 people that the authorities. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.480 Want, and then they sing like a bird. So that's 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:56.399 exactly what this guy did. 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.760 But tell us about that, and let's get to the trial, right, 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.200 Because how long did it take you to get to trial? 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.040 They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.879 trial day was August twenty fifth to begin. I was 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.960 twenty fifth of nineteen ninety eight. I was in ninety 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.359 February to twenty of nineteen ninety seven. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:14.080 You do the math. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.840 Eighteen months in about five days, so you go to trial. 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:19.800 Uh did you know that this guy was going to 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:20.560 testify against you? 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:26.919 Yes, I was given his statement and knew before I knew. 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.399 When I knew he was a jail house plan. It 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.560 was all over that he was a jail house plan. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:37.639 And Greg Gully still performed, still perform. Craig was jail Houston. 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:42.440 Greg Gully gave an interview on February the twelve. They 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.080 put my case to Geller. Kenneth Brown did identification on 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:50.040 February to tenth. Greg Galliy did his on February to twelve, 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.040 and Marcus Pinograd is a friend of mine to head 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.240 a case pending. He gave his on April twenty second 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.800 of ninety seven. Those other days in the critical days 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.760 in which the Commonwealth put his witnesses together against me. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.800 But great Gully was by far, as the drawer later said. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:13.600 After my post conviction relief and doing Melan Go interviewed 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.680 these people, and these drawers said that we weren't convinced 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:22.160 with nobody but Greg Gully. Greg Gully sold us hand, foot, 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:22.880 tooth and nail. 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.280 So they picked a guy who was a good actor 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.280 to a good liar and a good actor. But he 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:31.359 made one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake. 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:32.400 Yes he did. 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.720 Okay, So the jury goes out. How long did the 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:44.320 trial last? 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:49.640 The trial lasts six days, so dead to Aux aug 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.760 thirty first, and I told my lawyer that it would 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:54.919 be a two week trial, and she didn't put on 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.359 she tried, and she didn't call most of the people that I. 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:01.600 Wanted to call. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:03.400 What did you think? 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:07.840 And it is interesting too because we've had people on 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.840 the show whose trials took up to three weeks, I think, 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.200 And then we had Malcolm Alexander whose trial took less 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.200 than one day. Start to finish youry selection, everything else 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:20.240