1
00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

2
00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:05,360
Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

3
00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 2: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,640
Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

5
00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me.

6
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 4: Everything like everything.

7
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

8
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,479
Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

9
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?

10
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

11
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And

12
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,559
Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

13
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 4: corrough people, I wasn't going to breb anyone to get

14
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

15
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,840
Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

16
00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,479
Speaker 4: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

17
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 4: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

18
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,400
Speaker 1: Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come

19
00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: a little ways, but it's still broken.

20
00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520
Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

21
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 2: This is a wrongful conviction. Welcome back.

22
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 5: To Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me, and today

23
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,399
Speaker 5: we have an amazing guy. Carrie Porter is our guests

24
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 5: on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

25
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,360
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jason, thank you very much for having me here.

26
00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,040
Speaker 5: Now, I got to tell you carry even though I've

27
00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:33,960
Speaker 5: been doing this kind of work for about twenty five years,

28
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 5: when I was I had to read your story several

29
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,000
Speaker 5: times because he's got more twists and turns than a

30
00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 5: John Grishall novel.

31
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 6: That's funny you say that because my child, judge Thomas

32
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,280
Speaker 6: Wan is now Conwell attorney, and he said he mentioned

33
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,320
Speaker 6: that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom's movie.

34
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,360
Speaker 5: Okay, well, so, John, if you're listening very much in

35
00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,640
Speaker 5: the right, but your case has love trying, It has

36
00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 5: mistaken witness identification, it has perjury, it has false accusations,

37
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 5: it has corruption at the highest levels, it has cover ups,

38
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,680
Speaker 5: it has I mean, it's got so many factors that

39
00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 5: you know and and you know, and then murders happening

40
00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,800
Speaker 5: left and right around that would have pointed arrows in

41
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 5: different directions. And you know, I mean insurance claims and

42
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 5: questions and like I mean it's really we're going to

43
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 5: try to unravel this for the audience.

44
00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: Today, so everyone's gonna have to really follow along because

45
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 2: this is crazy.

46
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,120
Speaker 1: Good luck if we do that. The only I still have, The.

47
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,680
Speaker 5: Only thing I can promise is that there's a happy ending,

48
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 5: you know, because there is.

49
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,520
Speaker 1: Yes, there is first night.

50
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 7: A loibl man free from prison after fourteen years for

51
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,240
Speaker 7: a crime he didn't commit. Terrry Porter has a new

52
00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,960
Speaker 7: look at life thanks to these seven works.

53
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 1: Mister Porter did not commit this offense.

54
00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,320
Speaker 7: The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted for the

55
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 7: nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came

56
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 7: to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation.

57
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,800
Speaker 7: A key witness, Francois Cunningham, said Porter was set up

58
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:12,760
Speaker 7: for Camp's murder.

59
00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:15,360
Speaker 2: And I've seen you.

60
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 5: It's amazing, and we're going to get right into the story.

61
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,080
Speaker 5: But I've seen you speak on video, I saw you

62
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,640
Speaker 5: do a press conference, and you know, you really have

63
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 5: a remarkable spirit, and you know, I know you've done

64
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 5: a lot of work trying to help prevent these things

65
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 5: from happening to other people, and you know, you have

66
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 5: all my respect for everything that you're doing.

67
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 1: Thank you as you man.

68
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 5: Okay, well, so let's get right into it. So you're

69
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 5: from Louisville, Kentucky, grew up on the same street as

70
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 5: Muhammad Aldi.

71
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 1: Yes, soy fourth and Grand.

72
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 2: And you actually got to meet the legend that one.

73
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 6: Oh yes, yes, Cagon actually, yes, the greatest, the greatest.

74
00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,560
Speaker 6: The first time was in the seventies when this job

75
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 6: was broke.

76
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,800
Speaker 2: Wow, amazing, what a story.

77
00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,920
Speaker 5: And so in the mid nineties, Well, what was Louisville

78
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 5: like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time

79
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 5: in Louisville.

80
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 6: Yes, I have the in ninety six that was the

81
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 6: first risese of the murder rate. I have the sixty

82
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 6: eight people got killed, and I have the last body

83
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,239
Speaker 6: to Tyrone count whilst his life December to twenty seventh

84
00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,479
Speaker 6: or nineteen ninety six, and ironically they charged me with

85
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,279
Speaker 6: the last body. But in May to June, the mayor

86
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,040
Speaker 6: had to get on TV and assure the public that

87
00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 6: these murder investigations would be immediately handled, expedingly and professionally

88
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 6: and everything else, and that assurance went out the door.

89
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,920
Speaker 5: Well yeah, so what he was basically saying is we'll

90
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 5: get these solved, right, or wrong. Right, we're just gonna

91
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,520
Speaker 5: get We're gonna make everybody feel comfortable, even though you

92
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 5: should feel very uncomfortable because a real killer might well

93
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:54,080
Speaker 5: be out there.

94
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,640
Speaker 1: Well, politics has tales no better tal.

95
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,800
Speaker 5: There you go, so solet's go. Let's go to this

96
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:01,159
Speaker 5: crazy case.

97
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 1: Right.

98
00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,719
Speaker 5: So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct,

99
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,920
Speaker 5: a thirty five year old man, And can you explain

100
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,960
Speaker 5: the whole circumstance and how the connections led to you?

101
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,919
Speaker 5: And there was a witness that wasn't sure then he was.

102
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 5: I mean, the whole thing is like, but you take

103
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,520
Speaker 5: us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this,

104
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 5: right And like I always say to my guest, I'm

105
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,080
Speaker 5: happier here, but I'm sorry you're here. Yeah anyway, But okay,

106
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 5: so let's go back to this murder in nineteen ninety

107
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 5: six of Tyrone Camp.

108
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 6: Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boy's mama, Cecilia Sanders.

109
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,280
Speaker 1: Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Kirkpatrick.

110
00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 6: We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship

111
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 6: for nine years in which we had little carry at

112
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 6: the time that our leftlow carry because of Drew my

113
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 6: drug use.

114
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:55,720
Speaker 1: Little Carry was five years old.

115
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 6: So Tyrone Camp came along and he was a far

116
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,120
Speaker 6: better man than I and I science over parental's rights,

117
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,480
Speaker 6: and I think ninety three, I thought, because I did

118
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 6: time for child support, well, Tyrone was raising my son,

119
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,760
Speaker 6: doing a real good job of it. What Kerry was

120
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,040
Speaker 6: accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone didn't

121
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 6: know how to do any of that. So he found

122
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 6: out how to do it and stuff and had little

123
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 6: Kerry up on his wings as if he was me,

124
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 6: despite him never doing that before in his life.

125
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,479
Speaker 1: So little Kerry got the love in him.

126
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,279
Speaker 6: And on December to twenty seven, his little Kerry's mama's

127
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,120
Speaker 6: involved in what appears that she is one of the

128
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 6: person did more than likely she's the person adventures in

129
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:45,559
Speaker 6: the death of Tyrone Camp.

130
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 2: And what was the motivation here? And who I mean?

131
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,840
Speaker 5: Obviously it's still speculation because there hadn't been any real

132
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,240
Speaker 5: not any real serious reinvestigation ever since you got out,

133
00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,840
Speaker 5: which is now several years ago, but which is a

134
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,800
Speaker 5: very I mean, I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently

135
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 5: and very powerfully on this topic. Yeah, and it's it's

136
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 5: a it's a heavy topic. But because like I said,

137
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,160
Speaker 5: it involves cover ups and corruption at the highest levels.

138
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 1: My goodness.

139
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 5: So what was the motivation and how did this because

140
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 5: it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone Camp

141
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 5: was a pretty good guy, but very good. There was

142
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 5: there was some insurance money involved, is that right?

143
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,600
Speaker 1: Correct? Insurance money?

144
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 6: It's been rumored different things my investigation in the fifteen

145
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,520
Speaker 6: years it took to get me out. Was it Cecilia

146
00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 6: and her boyfriend Juan, the oldest Sanderu as the streets say,

147
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 6: scored up to anywhere from a half a million to

148
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 6: over a million dollars in insurance proceeds I do know,

149
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 6: and and did open records requests and manipulated the system

150
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,520
Speaker 6: one we another and got a hold of records in

151
00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 6: which I seen it. Four different agency paid your money.

152
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 5: So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes,

153
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 5: uh huh, because it happened in like a.

154
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: Active transportation company, right in a lot, right?

155
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 2: And so was it at night six six thirty five.

156
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 6: In the mornings when he was pronounced dead, am am.

157
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,200
Speaker 2: So there would have been some daylight to work.

158
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: With, not at six thirty five December.

159
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 6: The service is the shortest daylight time of the year,

160
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 6: so Urn the twenty first is the longest.

161
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,120
Speaker 5: So that's an interesting one too, because of the fact

162
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 5: that this witness would not have.

163
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,680
Speaker 2: Been reliable regardless right in the dark.

164
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,880
Speaker 5: But okay, and so the witness, Kenneth Brown Brown, he

165
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 5: changed his story a few times, is that right?

166
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,199
Speaker 6: As Thomas Wyane said, And Thomas Wyne shouldn't let him

167
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,680
Speaker 6: proceed to trial. He with old and he waffled, but

168
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,600
Speaker 6: he foually. Family is a key word described Kerry Porter.

169
00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 5: So on top of the arrows, that would seem I

170
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,640
Speaker 5: mean again, if we're writing a movie script, you know,

171
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,560
Speaker 5: you'd say, well, this looks a little too obvious because

172
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 5: you got the insurance money, right, you got this other

173
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:15,480
Speaker 5: guy Sanders right, was involved with your ex yes, right,

174
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 5: So there's a pretty powerful narrative going on there how

175
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 5: they might have wanted him gone, although it's hard to

176
00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,400
Speaker 5: believe a mother's love, you know, and being that you

177
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,800
Speaker 5: described him so eloquently as such a good father to

178
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 5: your son.

179
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:30,959
Speaker 1: One would think that that.

180
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 5: Maybe that would triumph over the greed. But greed is

181
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,480
Speaker 5: a powerful thing, very powerful, and that's a lot of money, yes, so,

182
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 5: but even still the rest your arrest didn't happen right away,

183
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 5: probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you.

184
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,400
Speaker 1: No, not, not not in the beginning at all.

185
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,800
Speaker 5: No, right because there was you didn't stand to benefit

186
00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:58,679
Speaker 5: from this in any way.

187
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,560
Speaker 2: No, and you weren't elos of them.

188
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 5: From everything you're saying, You're actually happy that he was

189
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,440
Speaker 5: filling the role that you at that time as a

190
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 5: young man. And I'm not here to judge. I mean,

191
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,839
Speaker 5: I was how old were you at the time you

192
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:09,400
Speaker 5: had your son?

193
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 1: At the time I heard Loil Kerry was twenty three.

194
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,800
Speaker 1: I was a late fablem so late in Kentucky.

195
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:16,680
Speaker 2: New York called that early.

196
00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 5: But anyway, twenty three, I think a lot of people,

197
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 5: and a lot of people are listening probably can relate

198
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 5: to this. I think a lot of people at twenty

199
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 5: three are still trying to find themselves, much less take

200
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,079
Speaker 5: care for another little being. I'm not saying that. I'm

201
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,520
Speaker 5: not saying your behavior was great or rationalize it. But

202
00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:33,360
Speaker 5: at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So

203
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 5: the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it

204
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,439
Speaker 5: didn't look like there was any real reason to There

205
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 5: was Additionally, nobody identifying you. And also there was no

206
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,959
Speaker 5: again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one.

207
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,240
Speaker 5: Anyone who watches TV would go, wait a minute, why

208
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,479
Speaker 5: didn't they look at the people who had the motivation?

209
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 5: And that would have made more sense, especially because something

210
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,200
Speaker 5: happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto

211
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,200
Speaker 5: that trail. Very good, correct, yes, But by then they

212
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 5: had arrested you. And let's get to it because that

213
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,839
Speaker 5: seven months is a very interesting twist in this.

214
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,360
Speaker 1: It's a key factor. It's a key factor, should have

215
00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 1: been a key factor.

216
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 5: But it wasn't right, so it wasn't so they arrested you.

217
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,079
Speaker 5: I mean, why do you think they did that?

218
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,560
Speaker 6: And when they arrested me February to twenty, and their

219
00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,640
Speaker 6: alleged motive was that I was jealous that Tyrone Camp

220
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 6: had stole my girls as stated in the opening statement,

221
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,719
Speaker 6: and that raising my kid. That was a motive for

222
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,839
Speaker 6: trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney Kidd's investigation.

223
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 6: That's supposed to have been that I had prior in

224
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:48,280
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety one, I had trashed so Siia's apartment in

225
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,559
Speaker 6: which me and me carry and Cecilia was supposed to

226
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 6: have been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming over on

227
00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 6: the weekends. So sal has been involved in several loved true,

228
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 6: she transferred from one guy that's just doing good to

229
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 6: a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her.

230
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:08,719
Speaker 1: That was her come up.

231
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 6: So that the commonwealth thought that I was the person

232
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 6: because of this ninety one trashing the apartment, that that's

233
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,040
Speaker 6: created the background for the motive. The only difference, Jason,

234
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 6: is that that background was a five over five years old,

235
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 6: that it had nothing else happened in five years, and

236
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 6: that did Tyrone Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I

237
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 6: did it in front of Tyrone, and it was said

238
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 6: that I put pulled a gun on Tyrone at that apartment,

239
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,439
Speaker 6: but there was nobody there to tell their story. But

240
00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 6: Tyrone and Tyrone count is the one that save me

241
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,840
Speaker 6: on the ninety one indictment of trashing the Derbrook apartment.

242
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,880
Speaker 6: He told them that no, Kerry did not put a

243
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 6: gun in my head. Kerry did not hold me hostage,

244
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,680
Speaker 6: and Carrie had nothing against me.

245
00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,040
Speaker 1: It was all against.

246
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,679
Speaker 5: Seals you anyway and charge you with the crime. Now again,

247
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 5: I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city the size.

248
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,080
Speaker 1: Of Loale, and I have the last body on a

249
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:10,079
Speaker 1: political year.

250
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 2: Right, so they need they need to put a ball

251
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,080
Speaker 2: on this one, right.

252
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,080
Speaker 6: Hey, why not snatch anybody they had with all of

253
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,840
Speaker 6: this background that they had on me, that that to

254
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 6: me gave them probable calls to come after me. Just

255
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,319
Speaker 6: got out of penitentiary, has a background for violence itself,

256
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:31,320
Speaker 6: especially with the.

257
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: Lags ninety one incident.

258
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,680
Speaker 6: And I think that they used that ninety one in

259
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,640
Speaker 6: my background to say, hey, look, carry's own drugs. He

260
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,360
Speaker 6: just got out of penitentiary. If he put the case

261
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 6: on him, he'll just go down like any other drug

262
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 6: and dummy and won't work on this case. It backfired

263
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,320
Speaker 6: on him, but it got became an easy target in

264
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:53,960
Speaker 6: my opinion.

265
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,880
Speaker 5: But it got a little trickier because seven months later,

266
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:58,760
Speaker 5: like you were talking about good.

267
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 6: Uh huh, you want to tell that's yes, I do

268
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,800
Speaker 6: on June to thirteenth that here happens to be a

269
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 6: Friday thirteenth. So nineteen ninety seven, Cecilia Sanders, well send

270
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 6: your camp was involved as a getaway driver in a

271
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 6: Hemlock murder in which Juan Sanders wan Leo Sanders shot

272
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 6: and killed Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Antoine's mother,

273
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 6: Anita Watts. He also shot his own uncle John. They

274
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 6: called John Dirty Sanders, and he walked away with a

275
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 6: twelve year sentence for all these shootings. But this is

276
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 6: six months later after the murder of Tyrone Camp.

277
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,040
Speaker 1: That should have raised arag fact to the Louisville Police.

278
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: Then it was ALPD. It should have raised a red flag.

279
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 1: But the difference, Jason is that at the time Louisville

280
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,520
Speaker 1: hadn't merged as Metro. It was Louisville Jeffson County Police

281
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:04,320
Speaker 1: versus Louisville Loisill Downtown Police. So the county police knew

282
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,480
Speaker 1: of my innocence and fought for my innocent and the

283
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 1: Louisville Police fault to frame me. Wow, that's that's deep.

284
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:13,520
Speaker 2: That's a new one.

285
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:13,880
Speaker 1: Yep.

286
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 2: We've heard a lot of stories on this show, listeners.

287
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,560
Speaker 5: I've heard, you know, I have people telling me, man

288
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 5: this one that everyone has a different one that they

289
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 5: they point to as the craziest one. But I've never

290
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 5: heard that particular. That's so odd because you have separate entities.

291
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,840
Speaker 1: But up under the same head.

292
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 2: It's starting to heard from this, so you have.

293
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,960
Speaker 6: You're the only one who does this if so many

294
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 6: twists in turn, people say, how do you deal with this?

295
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 5: And and by the way, when I was mentioning all

296
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 5: the twists and turns earlier and all the I mean,

297
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,280
Speaker 5: all the factors in your crazy story of being framed

298
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 5: and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I forgot to

299
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 5: mention the jail house snitch, which is a very important.

300
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: Part of the story too, great gully.

301
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 5: Right, So, and there's a very very interesting as to

302
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 5: that too, which I think when everyone hears this, there's

303
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:04,800
Speaker 5: gonna be a few people signed up for law school

304
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,480
Speaker 5: going I want to be the guy that discovers that

305
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 5: kind of stuff, because it's great and that and that,

306
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,160
Speaker 5: you know, let's let's get into this aspect of the case,

307
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:19,000
Speaker 5: because so here it is. Seven months later, an inconvenient

308
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 5: truth emerges, which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia

309
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 5: and Uh and Juan Sanders end up being caught red

310
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 5: handed shooting three people. And now you go, okay, so

311
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 5: let me just see here like this, we could be

312
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 5: in like eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait

313
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 5: a minute, okay, but hold on, there's there's now there's

314
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 5: the insurance money, there's the there's the propensity to violence,

315
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 5: that same kind of thing. Shootings like it's really this one,

316
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 5: as I say, this one comes with instructions, right, but instead,

317
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 5: but that being said, that didn't throw anybody off the case.

318
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 5: They were still ell bent on getting you. And in

319
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 5: order to do that, they found a convenient uh willing,

320
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 5: very willing, who was happy to make a deal. And

321
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 5: and this is something that I mentioned at times to time,

322
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 5: but the idea to me that everyone knows to watches

323
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 5: TV or has any type of education whatsoever in this country,

324
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 5: everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness, right, So you

325
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 5: can't go to uh, you know whatever, I see somebody

326
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 5: shoplifting or whatever.

327
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:34,840
Speaker 2: It is and they bring me in.

328
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 5: So that guy can't come to me and say, well,

329
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,359
Speaker 5: I give you one hundred dollars, but just tell them

330
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 5: with somebody else, right, that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's

331
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 5: a gets the law. But the government can go to

332
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,639
Speaker 5: a jailhouse snitch and say, listen, I'm going to give

333
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 5: you the best bribe there is. I'm going to reduce

334
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 5: your sentence or let you give you a get out

335
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 5: of jail free card or whatever it is. All you

336
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,520
Speaker 5: got to do is tell us the story on the

337
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 5: stand that Harry told you. It happens all the time.

338
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 2: Carry told you.

339
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 5: That he did this murder, and you're gonna go, we're

340
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 5: gonna be real nice to you, right, And that's exactly

341
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,200
Speaker 5: what happened. And by the way, I don't even want

342
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 5: to judge that guy because I don't know what his

343
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 5: particular situation is.

344
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 2: I'm not going to excuse it.

345
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 5: Either, But exactly, I don't know how anybody in that situation.

346
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,920
Speaker 5: I mean, I hope I know how people would react,

347
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,199
Speaker 5: because it's the wrong thing to do. But it's a

348
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 5: difficult you know, it would require a lot of soul searching.

349
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 2: If someone saying, listen, you go.

350
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,360
Speaker 5: Hold your family right right now, you're looking at you're

351
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,880
Speaker 5: looking at ten to twenty for whatever it is our

352
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 5: robbery that we're gonna right and anyway, So but this

353
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 5: guy was happy to take the deal. And interestingly, we

354
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 5: know that jailhouse snitches are often used multiple times. They

355
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 5: get placed in cells either with or right next to

356
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 5: people that the authorities.

357
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 2: Want, and then they sing like a bird. So that's

358
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,399
Speaker 2: exactly what this guy did.

359
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 5: But tell us about that, and let's get to the trial, right,

360
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,200
Speaker 5: Because how long did it take you to get to trial?

361
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 6: They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The

362
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 6: trial day was August twenty fifth to begin. I was

363
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 6: twenty fifth of nineteen ninety eight. I was in ninety

364
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,359
Speaker 6: February to twenty of nineteen ninety seven.

365
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 1: You do the math.

366
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 5: Eighteen months in about five days, so you go to trial.

367
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 5: Uh did you know that this guy was going to

368
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 5: testify against you?

369
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 6: Yes, I was given his statement and knew before I knew.

370
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 6: When I knew he was a jail house plan. It

371
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 6: was all over that he was a jail house plan.

372
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 6: And Greg Gully still performed, still perform. Craig was jail Houston.

373
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 6: Greg Gully gave an interview on February the twelve. They

374
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 6: put my case to Geller. Kenneth Brown did identification on

375
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 6: February to tenth. Greg Galliy did his on February to twelve,

376
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 6: and Marcus Pinograd is a friend of mine to head

377
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 6: a case pending. He gave his on April twenty second

378
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 6: of ninety seven. Those other days in the critical days

379
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 6: in which the Commonwealth put his witnesses together against me.

380
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 6: But great Gully was by far, as the drawer later said.

381
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 6: After my post conviction relief and doing Melan Go interviewed

382
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 6: these people, and these drawers said that we weren't convinced

383
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:22,160
Speaker 6: with nobody but Greg Gully. Greg Gully sold us hand, foot,

384
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 6: tooth and nail.

385
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 5: So they picked a guy who was a good actor

386
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 5: to a good liar and a good actor. But he

387
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 5: made one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake.

388
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 1: Yes he did.

389
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 2: Okay, So the jury goes out. How long did the

390
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 2: trial last?

391
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 6: The trial lasts six days, so dead to Aux aug

392
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 6: thirty first, and I told my lawyer that it would

393
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 6: be a two week trial, and she didn't put on

394
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 6: she tried, and she didn't call most of the people that I.

395
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: Wanted to call.

396
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 2: What did you think?

397
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 5: And it is interesting too because we've had people on

398
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 5: the show whose trials took up to three weeks, I think,

399
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 5: And then we had Malcolm Alexander whose trial took less

400
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 5: than one day. Start to finish youry selection, everything else

401
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 5: I have sent to life in prison. So your trial

402
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 5: six days. You've now heard these people get up and lie.

403
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 5: Now before we get to the jury verdict. There was

404
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 5: one thing that I read when I was reading up

405
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 5: about your case that was confusing to me, which was

406
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 5: that your alibi was disputed by the one person who

407
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 5: could confirm it right, right, So how did that happen?

408
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 2: What went wrong there?

409
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 6: My niece, My niece said she didn't mean to my

410
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 6: lawyer didn't interview her. And and I'll know my sister

411
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 6: and so my niece when she told she cantun to stand,

412
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 6: she said that she thought that I can came in

413
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 6: at eleven something, that eleven something on December the twenty sixth,

414
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 6: before the twenty seven and the actual time that I

415
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 6: did come in was four point thirty at five o'clock.

416
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 6: I was using drugs at the time and I've been

417
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 6: getting high all night on orangemer. So when my sister said,

418
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 6: when my niece said at eleven, my sister said, the

419
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 6: real time was at at four thirty to.

420
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: Five five o'clock, five fifteen. What happened there?

421
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 6: When you got a controversy like adver beteen two family members,

422
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 6: they think that that one, you know, one person's trying

423
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 6: to save them and the other one was telling them

424
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 6: the truth. So that left a bad impression with the jewelry.

425
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: I see.

426
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 5: So it's really it wasn't really that they contradicted you.

427
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 5: It was more of a misunderstanding between them, which ended

428
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 5: up looking like you were lying.

429
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: Correct and the Donald.

430
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 6: What you're getting at is Donald Bruteley, Donald Brutley I

431
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 6: was supposed to have been. When I gave my saving

432
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 6: on January seventh, or ninety seven, I told the Louisville

433
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 6: Police that I uh. They said, do you know where

434
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 6: you was at this time?

435
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: Right here?

436
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 6: I said, yeah, probably probably over my girlfriend's house. Did

437
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 6: y'all argy fight? Probably so, because we was doing drugs.

438
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 6: So when I told him the time that I was

439
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 6: over a house, she had been in Jadak for two days.

440
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: I was two days off. But I told my lawyer.

441
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: They put it.

442
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 6: They we had a hearing on it, and they produced

443
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 6: that I was a legedly lying. But Jason, when a

444
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 6: lot of people don't know when you're doing drugs, Cocaine's

445
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 6: the only thing I really know. Reefer didn't do that

446
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 6: to me. But when you're doing cocaine, when you have

447
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 6: a big piece of drug right here, well the days

448
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 6: only matter to real working people and real people when

449
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 6: you when you own drugs and stuff. The only thing

450
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 6: that matters is that one piece of drug realther the

451
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 6: last one day at tend days, that's only one day

452
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 6: because you only doing that moment. So so when when

453
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 6: when we doing drugs on my spree, we get the

454
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 6: times mixed up because it's only one day to us

455
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 6: as long as the drug glass, that's only one day

456
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 6: of doing drugs, even though it's five days.

457
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 5: It is a bad drug and the pat tricks on

458
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 5: your mind. And that is one thing I don't recommend

459
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 5: to anybody, do I do.

460
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 6: I struggle with that, and basically penitentiary broke it good.

461
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 5: Here we are at the trial. Things don't sound like

462
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 5: they were looking very good. I mean, but what was

463
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 5: your feeling? I mean, you had now been seeing some

464
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 5: crazy stuff, some some real games that they were playing.

465
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 5: You've seen that they were willing to go to extraordinary right, Yes,

466
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 5: And when the jury went out, did you think that

467
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 5: you had a chance?

468
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: No, Jason, Because that's let me take you back a

469
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: little bit. Jason.

470
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 6: When I first seen this on TV, my mother taught

471
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 6: my sister told me about it, and so I went

472
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 6: to go and look at her.

473
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: Keep in mind, I'm coming on.

474
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 6: For drugs or doing drugs at the time and December

475
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 6: twenty seven, so it's two days after Christmas. So Jason,

476
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 6: when I see it on TV, it was like my

477
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 6: little brothers, my friend Joe Talker, and all these people

478
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 6: that was in the room looking at the same time.

479
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 6: My sister said, somebody kills Seal's husband. You need to

480
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 6: look at it on TV.

481
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: Well I was.

482
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 6: I was knowing I ain't do that, and so I'm

483
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 6: stopping to me other than the harble flying.

484
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: So when I see it on.

485
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 6: TV, it was like God was right behind me, and

486
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 6: God told me, and listen, I've been trying to get

487
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 6: you to do my work and and basically change your life.

488
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: You've been running for all this time. This is you.

489
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 6: So Jason, I knew that day God told me everything

490
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 6: that I was going to be incarcerated for. There was

491
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 6: no stopping it. So that you can tell all you

492
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 6: want about how other this case is gonna be. Nobody's

493
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 6: gonna believe you so so so, but God said in

494
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 6: the end I will prevail and that my name will

495
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 6: be glorified. So that's the way this case went. So

496
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 6: Jason went when everything that happened, nothing surprised me because

497
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 6: God had already told me.

498
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: That's why.

499
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 6: Now, even though I was doing drugs and stuff, I

500
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 6: was shocked into a religious experience that I never I mean,

501
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 6: I told everybody, listen, man, they're gonna they're gonna get

502
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 6: me on this case. All of my friends said, man,

503
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 6: will stop saying that you don't have nothing to do

504
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 6: with it. Why would you be saying that, man, y'all

505
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 6: not understand. Man, they're gonna frame me. Man, y'all not

506
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 6: understand listening to man Krisch telling us that I told

507
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 6: my buddy for reed.

508
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: I told during Woods.

509
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 6: I told all some close people to me, and they

510
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 6: all thought I was crazy. So so Jason. When when

511
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 6: the verdict came back in forty minutes, I was not shocked.

512
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 6: I was beyond calm. Interesting enough, you should see the fine.

513
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 6: I was beyond calm, and I knew that I knew

514
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 6: that I had to go down and fight it from

515
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 6: behind the bars.

516
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: But you also knew there was going to work out

517
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 2: in the end. So and it did.

518
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 5: And that's and that's a really interesting part of the

519
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 5: story because how this thing eventually unraveled. And actually, you know,

520
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 5: as much as I don't think anyone can comprehend what

521
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 5: you went through eleven years behind bars.

522
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 2: It's actually sort of. I mean, the.

523
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 5: Average case takes longer of an innocent person to get

524
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 5: their conviction overturn, and we know that most innocent people

525
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 5: never convict get their convictions overturned because there's so many.

526
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 5: In fact, the latest estimate that just came out is

527
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 5: that six percent of all the people in prison in

528
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 5: the United States are innocent. So there you are in

529
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 5: prison for this crime you didn't commit, and since the

530
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 5: sixty years so basically life sentence.

531
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: You would never be on a life sentence, right.

532
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: You wann't you want to go to live sixty years

533
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: in there?

534
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: Had you know?

535
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 6: I knew day one that I was calm about every

536
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 6: time because it was the Book of Daniels. I'm gonna

537
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 6: come out smelling like a rose.

538
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: And God assured me that.

539
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 6: And I assure God that if you give me enough wisdom,

540
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 6: enough strength to fight this case, I would have everybody

541
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 6: that comes to me is willing to have themselves. I

542
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 6: went straight in, went straight to the law library, worked

543
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 6: a law library for the whole fifteen years. Like I say,

544
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 6: I'll call it fifteen from December to twenty February twenty two.

545
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 6: I got out of December nineteen and Jason. I worked

546
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 6: in a law library every.

547
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: Day all day.

548
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 6: I did this case a minimum of twelve hours minimum.

549
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 6: If I I have, I had seventeen laundry bags of

550
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 6: legal work. I still have those laundry bags of legal

551
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 6: work in a storeage unit. My mother told me to

552
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 6: make a chair and I'm gonna do it and take

553
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 6: a picture of it. Seventeen bags. So she tells me

554
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 6: to make a chure of and sit in there and

555
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 6: pose and take a picture of it. The country. Everybody

556
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 6: needs to see that. But that's what it took to

557
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 6: get me out. I know each one of those pieces

558
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 6: of paper either I hand written them from the whole.

559
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 6: I typed them up on two typewriters. I wore out

560
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 6: the typewriter the E and the A was completely wore out.

561
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: I had the people say, man, I can't see the letter.

562
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: They can, they won't use them typewriter. I can't see

563
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: the letters on the alphabets or nothing. I say, yeah,

564
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: but here's E. I had. I had to put a

565
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: paper clip for the E.

566
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 6: The button wore out and got sticky, so I had

567
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 6: to reinvented as those convicts are clever.

568
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: I had a tape, a paper clip.

569
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 6: I still have that typewriter, my TV, my cooler, my

570
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 6: hot pie, and all of these things there on my souvenir.

571
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 6: And when I built my house, I will put them

572
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 6: in my basement and scare the stuffings out of my

573
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 6: bad butt. Grandkids, if they choose to go, try to

574
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 6: go south on me. I was gonna make a a

575
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 6: monument of what Eastern was like a dorm. I know

576
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 6: the blocks. I counted the blocks, I got them roped down.

577
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 6: I counted on how high they win. I knew where

578
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 6: the event is. I used toilet paper as my measuring stick,

579
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 6: and I know the whole thing. I've got it on

580
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 6: paper what Eastern looks like. So I'm going to build

581
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 6: that in my basement with a bean shooter recaller. That's

582
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 6: where they feed you through the hole at they open

583
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 6: up a flap that's about four inches maybe three and

584
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 6: a half four inches tall and probably about maybe sixteen

585
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 6: inches long fifteen sixteen inches long, and they feed you

586
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 6: through there, and that's where they put their handcuffs on

587
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 6: you to take you to transport you otherwise. So I'm

588
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 6: going to put this on my basement for other kids

589
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 6: as a monumental there.

590
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: Hey, listen, don't be me.

591
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 5: So let's talk about the what I would call my

592
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 5: favorite part of the story, right, which is how this

593
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 5: thing got fixed. I mean, it can never really be

594
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 5: fixed because no one can give you back those eleven

595
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 5: years of your life. But you have certainly made the

596
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 5: most out of it. How did you ultimately find your freedom?

597
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 5: Because I love and we're now we're finally going to

598
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 5: let people in on the bay Watch part of the

599
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 5: story because.

600
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: It's great, right. I watched William Gregor.

601
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 6: He was the first guy in the nation to get

602
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 6: exonerated by mitochondri in DNA, first guy in the nation.

603
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,959
Speaker 6: He's the seven to fourth person in the United States

604
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 6: to be exonerated. I watched him walk out of North

605
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 6: Point on about July the fifth of July the ninth,

606
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 6: somewhere up in there of two thousand at that time,

607
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 6: Innocent Project in Kentucky, the Kentucky Anctant Project was very new,

608
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 6: if it was even established all the way.

609
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: So when they did find it, when.

610
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 6: After a few months after he left, I wrote Kentucky

611
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 6: Instant Projects down in Eddyville at the time. They accepted

612
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 6: my case in November of two thousand and six, in

613
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 6: between the season in which they wasn't supposed to take it.

614
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 6: So now then I found out later that the reason

615
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 6: they took it were officials said that they had officials

616
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 6: I don't know who these officials were, said they had

617
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 6: an insant man indepenitentiary and that they needed to get

618
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 6: him out. So the encientt project came to me and

619
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 6: there's Gordon roynaldsi On, Melanie Lowe and Melanie low and

620
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 6: Linda Smith and Alex Matthews, UK student. They all sat

621
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 6: down on my case and started doing the footwork. And

622
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 6: that was the beginning of my freedom.

623
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: When you say UK still you mean in the University

624
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: of Kentucky, not the United Kingdom. Yeah.

625
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 5: And so they started working on it, and what did

626
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 5: they find.

627
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 6: They it took him six years to be out, and

628
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 6: I got frustrated. During the six years, me and Melanie

629
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 6: low were kind of totally toe on some phone calls,

630
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 6: and lucky enough, I had Danny Butler co case. Detective

631
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 6: Danny Butler came aboard and he asked Melanie load him,

632
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 6: could he help exonerate me, help free me? And they

633
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 6: as a team got together in the last two years,

634
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 6: we produced the.

635
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: DNA that was not mine.

636
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 6: The centerpiece of this case, Jason, was an alleged homemade silencer.

637
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 6: So whoever made a silencer prepared for premeditation, prepare to

638
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 6: get away with a crime, and a vicious crime at

639
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 6: that So tom on Kin was shot with a shotgun.

640
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 6: So this silencer was a centerpiece at the at the

641
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 6: at the crime scene, actual transportation and uh, they tested

642
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 6: the duct This chuncer was comprised of duct tape. While

643
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 6: I met carpet rolled up in duct tape and it

644
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 6: was left at the scene. So they got to the

645
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 6: DNA out of this duct tape and it was not

646
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 6: my DNA.

647
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 5: And then they found out that the jail house snitch,

648
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 5: Greg Gillimo, was They found out that he was lying

649
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 5: and that one of the key aspects of his very

650
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 5: damning testimony against you was that he said I can

651
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 5: remember it clear as a bell that he confessed to

652
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: me because I remember at the time he did it,

653
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 5: we were watching Baywatch on TV. And then your guys,

654
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 5: who obviously were on their A game, they found out

655
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 5: they did some research and found out that Baywatch wasn't

656
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 5: even on TV that day.

657
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: Baywatch is a PG time.

658
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 6: It had what's the name Pamela Anderson, Yes, Pamela Anderson

659
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 6: and what's called guy?

660
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: And that's all the only time you seen a gun

661
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: on Baywatch was if they had a lifeguard race and

662
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: the black guy that was a coast guard or beach

663
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: police shot the little you know, gold Time started seeing

664
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: it a little bit.

665
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 6: I watched the bay Watch. That's the some time I

666
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 6: remember about it. Now what Linda, Melanie Low Liam got

667
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 6: that from me. I did my homework and oh yes,

668
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 6: I did most of the footwork I did. But thank

669
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 6: you Melanie low then the Smith and all the rest

670
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 6: of y'all. But I did my homework and I even

671
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 6: wrote that guy named They had an article in the

672
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 6: find right Dave. Dave was somebody you write and asked

673
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 6: him questions about anything you wanted to know about any show.

674
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 6: So I wrote Dave several times and he finally got

675
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 6: back with him and he said, I use that as

676
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 6: proof to show Melanie and them listen, Baywatch don't have

677
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 6: no shotgun. Greg Gully's theme was that that we was

678
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 6: watching Baywatch in CCC A forty men Dom and I

679
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 6: told him while watching Baywatch that this guy that was

680
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 6: on the Baywatch show was supposed to have been a deaf person,

681
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 6: a blind person, and he shot a She was working

682
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 6: on a clay figure, and she had heard of Robbie.

683
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 6: Because she's blind, she didn't see it. She heard it.

684
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 6: This burglar, this guy knew that she was gonna be

685
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 6: a witness, and she, according to Greg Gully, blew the

686
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 6: dumb the clay figure's head off with a shotgun and

687
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 6: told her whispered in her that would be that's gonna

688
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 6: be your head if you try to testify against me.

689
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: This far fast signed.

690
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 6: This is what Greg Gully said, And he testified this

691
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 6: very adamantly at trial, and it was so kind of

692
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 6: far faster. I laughed, and my lawyer had an elbow me.

693
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 6: But it was so sickening and so pathetic that that,

694
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 6: you know, anybody could should have seen through that, but

695
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 6: it wasn't. So that you have to rind back the

696
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 6: trial take and see it. I know, almost exact minutes

697
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 6: and everything. So Greg Gully says this touff and I

698
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 6: wrote all kinds of people and proved that there was

699
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 6: no such Baywatch episode about any clay figure and somebody

700
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 6: shooting with a shotgun.

701
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 5: So anyway, so that that they watch actually in between

702
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 5: saving people from drowning, they may have actually actually had

703
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 5: to roll and saving your.

704
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: Life too, So that's nice.

705
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I was.

706
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 5: You were drowning in the drowning in the system, not

707
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 5: in the ways, but anyway, so that's a that's a

708
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 5: good So you get a lot of credit for that

709
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 5: investigative work right there.

710
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: Which is great. Yes, I did a whole lot. I mean,

711
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: that's amazing.

712
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 5: So back to this, So ultimately the government's case starts

713
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 5: completely deteriorating, falling apart, crumbling, whatever you want to call it.

714
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 5: And you are starting to see a little light at

715
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 5: the end.

716
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 2: Of the tunnel.

717
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, you.

718
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 5: Have to stop smiling from what I can tell. But anyway,

719
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 5: you've been here and and then so so how did

720
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 5: it finally.

721
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: End up with you gaining your freedom?

722
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 6: We also to back up the d n A mainly

723
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 6: load them wively, strategically said uh, let's do another lot.

724
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 2: I did.

725
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, I did a light detactor.

726
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 6: On December January seventh of nineteen ninety seven, and that

727
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 6: light attector guy for the over police said I passed,

728
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 6: he said, I passed with flying colors.

729
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: So they did. They made my my what should have

730
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: been my co defender, Joe Tucker, they made him take

731
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: a light attack to test two of them. He passed

732
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: both of them. Two. So he said, Joe Tucker said

733
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: that he was scared to go out of that office

734
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: because when he said, the guy told me passed the

735
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: fine claud I got locked up. And so Joe Tucker

736
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 1: was scared to go past that offense because of that.

737
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: So getting back with the light of tech test, we

738
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: did a lot of attach to test and I passed

739
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: that with fine close. So that's the second light of

740
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: tech of tests I took. So that that.

741
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 6: Couple with the DNA couple with Greg gully Ban and

742
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 6: Jenerhal Snintz, and the deals were made with Marcus Spindograss

743
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 6: and Greg got Isuell and the Kenneth Brown recam. That man,

744
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 6: I never told y'all that I really knew there was carry.

745
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 6: I was never one hundred percent sure. So all of

746
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 6: these factors ended up aiding and to where the commonwealth

747
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 6: couldn't couldn't bow down. And then the main thing that

748
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 6: came along Jason was Fransvois Cuttingham, Franscrois cutting Ham and

749
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 6: uh interested enough doing a murder out in Jaytown in

750
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 6: Frank Creek, and he this was his second murder. His

751
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 6: first murder was a Mexican and was used homemade sounds

752
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 6: that was used in that case. So me and Frans

753
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 6: guid Will happened to be down North Point together, but

754
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 6: I didn't mess want to mess with Francois. Francois wanted

755
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 6: to talk to me several times, and I didn't want

756
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 6: any dealing with him because I knew that he was

757
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 6: part of Juan Sanders and his clique. They called themselves

758
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 6: murder Inc. And at one time they called himself Moms

759
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 6: Masters of Murders, so either one of the the title

760
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 6: spelled real bad.

761
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: Now.

762
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 6: They were younger than me, so I didn't know that

763
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 6: they was doing all this. So anyway, Frank Wi he

764
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 6: called his first medic case in ninety seven, and the

765
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 6: lawsuit presues that Franccoi told the loruis of the police

766
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 6: long before my trial who had did this, why they

767
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 6: did it, and that they was gonna frame me Fransquiard

768
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 6: cutting down. So this was a find that made that

769
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 6: made the Commonwealth Dave Stingle bowed down and had to

770
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 6: let me go, so we had Frank wid had ended

771
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 6: up on his second murder case. He got out in

772
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 6: two thousand and four and called him murder case in

773
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 6: two thousand and five in which he killed two people

774
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 6: a girl and a guy, a couple, and they were

775
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 6: out in Fern Creek Park, frien Creek School's park, and

776
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 6: he shot and burnt them up. So he made a deal.

777
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 6: He took it to trial and had a mistrial, and

778
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 6: on his second time going to trial, he made a deal.

779
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 6: Part of the deal was that he telled on several

780
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 6: murders that he knew about.

781
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: At the end of the.

782
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 6: Murders, he said, oh, by the way, Kerry Porter is

783
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 6: also innocent, and he had nothing to do with the

784
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Kap. At the end

785
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 6: of the interview, oh, also, Kerry Porter is also innocent too.

786
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 6: And here's why Jayan Sanders tried to pay me fifty

787
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 6: thousand dollars to kill him, and I didn't want to

788
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 6: take that hit.

789
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 5: Right, So he came right out and said that Sanators

790
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 5: had offered him fifty thousand, thousand dollars.

791
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: To do the murder.

792
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 5: He turned it down, which is kind of strange taking

793
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 5: back on it, but whatever, we have to get into

794
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 5: that now. But ultimately that's pretty powerful then. But okay,

795
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 5: so now let's fast forward to you get out right,

796
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 5: and how I mean I've seen, like I said, I've

797
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 5: seen you on TV. This is you know, this smile

798
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 5: that you can't seem to get rid of. And I

799
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 5: don't even know if you want to thank you. I

800
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 5: know you're walking around New York checking everything out. So

801
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 5: but so you get out, and no, sooner do you

802
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 5: get out, then you're calling for justice on the case,

803
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 5: and you're immediately starting to advocate for other people in

804
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 5: your situation. And that's really because there really hasn't been justice.

805
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: In your case. There's no justice, No arrests have been made.

806
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: No, I don't care nothing about the lawsuit.

807
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 6: I don't care nothing about no blanking money, because money

808
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 6: is what this case was all about all the way.

809
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: Around the board. Tyrone Camp lost.

810
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 6: His life because he was no more than a money

811
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 6: factor to my little boy's mama. Sadly, so, money has

812
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 6: always been evil to me. I give money away like

813
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 6: it's forty one. I don't I'm not materialistic. I'm not

814
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 6: caught up in the money world. So when I this case,

815
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 6: no justice because me and Jerome Camp, Jerome Camp has

816
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 6: been on my side, fighting, fighting the Louisville police since

817
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 6: before on before trial. He's been trying to tell these people,

818
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 6: y'all have the wrong person carry us, not the killer.

819
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 6: It is Cecilia and our boyfriend.

820
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 5: And that's the victim's family calling for justice for their

821
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 5: own kin. And to their great credit, Uh, they've stood

822
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 5: strong by your side.

823
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: With wrong Camp. And we still friends today.

824
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 6: We go to his church on several occasions, spoke in

825
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 6: front of his congregation, We prayed in front of his congregation.

826
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 6: We we haven't had a counter like vision. Let we're

827
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 6: about to do that in some war time.

828
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: We've been working h waiting.

829
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 5: Uh.

830
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 6: The person that has this case, Uh, the leader detective

831
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 6: that has this case doesn't seem to want to go

832
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 6: after the obvious suspects.

833
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

834
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 5: And I've seen your lawyer speak about this about how

835
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 5: you know he's calling for uh, the chief of police and.

836
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 2: Louis Le to Steve Conrad right to uh to basically.

837
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 5: The whole department right and turn it over to an

838
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 5: independent agency to do what they got to do to

839
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 5: get to the bottom of this case, which it seems

840
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 5: to me I don't really. I mean, there's a lot

841
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 5: of things I don't understand, but I understand why that

842
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 5: would cause anybody any you know, like you would think

843
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 5: that everybody you know, because that's a crazy thing too, right,

844
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 5: Like even the people who are involved in this cover

845
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 5: up or whatever you want to call it, or involved

846
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 5: in yeah, involved in obstructing the justice from from getting

847
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 5: to its right, preventing the right outcome from happening. The

848
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 5: crazy thing about it, on top of all the other

849
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 5: crazy things, is that.

850
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: They live in that community too.

851
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 5: And who's to say that they wouldn't end up being

852
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 5: somebody they love, might not end up getting hurt by

853
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 5: these people. These are dangerous people, right who killed I mean, anyway,

854
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 5: we won't even get into that now because we're not

855
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 5: going to do that's a psychology show. We have to

856
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 5: do a different psychology show to try to understand why

857
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 5: people would would behave the way that they do. But

858
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 5: we can't control that, not from this studio anyway. And

859
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 5: all we can do is do the best we can

860
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 5: to try to get the word out there about these situations,

861
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 5: about your story about how these things happen, why they happen,

862
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 5: and how to prevent them from happening in the future.

863
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 5: And I would say that you being here and telling

864
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 5: this story is a real eye opener for people who

865
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 5: are interested in getting into this work and people who

866
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 5: are just you know, just human beings who care about

867
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 5: that fellow human beings who want to make sure that

868
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 5: this doesn't happen to them or their family. Because I

869
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 5: think you would agree. I say to people, if you

870
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 5: think it can't happen to you, it can, right.

871
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 6: Yes, that's my model. Listen, y'all, if it happened to me.

872
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 6: I made a vow that that because it did happen

873
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 6: to me, they won't get anybody that I love. They

874
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 6: definitely won't get None of my kids are grand kids,

875
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 6: and as a result of this case, I haven't talked

876
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 6: to my son Carrie since trial. January August of twenty seven,

877
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 6: Little Kerry said hi, Daddy, and that's the last time

878
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 6: I heard little Kerry talk to me. He has thirty

879
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 6: He was twelve at that time. He is now thirty

880
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 6: three years of age, and he has two kids. I've

881
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 6: seen my grand baby Mason one time, identical twin to me.

882
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 6: Everybody tells me she's identical twin to me, a little

883
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 6: bit lighter than me, but she is me all the

884
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 6: way around the board. So I don't know how Cecilia

885
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 6: looks at little Carrie and then has to look at

886
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 6: a grand baby that she loves and keeps on up

887
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 6: because she's gonna, hopefully soon have to depart from him.

888
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 5: So Carrie, I could talk to you all day, but

889
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 5: we don't have all day. Yeah, we only have a

890
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 5: couple of minutes left. But we have a tradition here

891
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 5: on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,

892
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 5: and I think probably a lot of people's favorite part

893
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 5: of the show, which is that at the end of

894
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 5: the show I stopped talking, just turn the microphone over

895
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 5: you and say what else would you like to share?

896
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 5: If you had another couple of minutes to just say

897
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 5: anything you want, and you've covered a lot, But what

898
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 5: else can you share.

899
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: With our audience?

900
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 5: Well?

901
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: The main thing every day, y'all.

902
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 6: Every day, Almost every time I eat a meal, it

903
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 6: reminds you of penitentiary, no matter if I'm from a

904
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 6: bag of potato chips to the simplest thing a twister

905
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 6: a noun rat. Anything you consume reminds your penitentiary. That's

906
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 6: one factor. Second factor is I like to thank Jerome

907
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 6: com first and foremost for having a carriage to say

908
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 6: that I don't think this man is the man to

909
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 6: kill my brother, for him to stick beside me. I

910
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 6: like to thank Danny Butler for going against his fellow

911
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 6: employees and being called all kinds of bad names or

912
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 6: distal over that type of thing. Whatever they call Danny Butler.

913
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 6: I've heard some of them myself, so I've known that

914
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 6: he went through hell. Detective Cocaine, Detective Danny Butler, A

915
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 6: shop goes out to you, memly Low, Gordon Ron and

916
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 6: all of those that help exonerate me, my family that

917
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 6: supported me through trying to send letters of hope, money

918
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 6: and stamps. Took a lot of stamps and a lot

919
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 6: of copying to get me here, y'all, a whole lot.

920
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 6: I made the sacrifices a blown in and cracker. I

921
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 6: ate the cheapest thing, the canteen head. I would treat

922
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 6: myself every blue moon as a result of this. No

923
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 6: holiday makes a difference to me. I don't care about

924
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 6: my birthday, Christmas. It's savvy enough. I don't really give

925
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 6: presents out it ruins you. Yes, I smile all the time.

926
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 6: I'm happy one moment and crying the next every day,

927
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 6: all day. So if we as a whole society, we

928
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 6: need to make sure that this doesn't happen to another

929
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 6: carry Porter, because you're going to lose another Kerry Ramone junior,

930
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 6: and that's a big divide in the family. And you

931
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 6: just fine, this cycle is going to continue, So audience,

932
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 6: if I can do anything, man, please don't let this

933
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 6: happen to nobody else. I'm getting cheary now, So I'm

934
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 6: the end there because I'm in New York and I

935
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 6: want to smile.

936
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: Well, we're happy to have you here in New York.

937
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 5: I'm gon get a little choked up too, and I

938
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 5: really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your experience, knowledge, strength,

939
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 5: and your vision for the future. So once again, thank

940
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 5: you everyone for listening to this very special episode of

941
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction with Kerry Porter.

942
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: Carrie. Thank you, Thank you Kerry Porter. The legend over

943
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: and that makes me smile.

944
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

945
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 5: get your podcasts, it really helps and I'm a proud

946
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 5: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

947
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 5: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

948
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 5: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

949
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 5: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

950
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 5: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

951
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 5: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

952
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 5: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

953
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 5: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.

954
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: At Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

955
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

956
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 5: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one