1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: name is Nol. They called me Ben. We are joined 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: as always with our super producer Paul Mission controlled Decon. 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you, You are here, and that 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. We get. 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: We get a lot of letters. Who received a lot 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: of correspondences over the years, and occasionally people have written 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: to us and said something like, gee, thanks fellas, now 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: I can't sleep at night, right, Yeah, it's pretty common. Actually, yeah, 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: stayed up till five am on one rabbit hole or another. 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: And conversely we get messages every once in a while 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: to say, wow, you guys really help me fall right 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: to sleep. I love that way. Also five stars. Whenever 18 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: I can't sleep, I turn on stuff they don't want 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: you to know. Today's episode hinges on a couple of 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: a couple of things that may seem on the offset unrelated, 21 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: but they're very much related. We're talking about insomnia, the 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: the physical phenomenon that people encounter. We're talking about true crime, 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: unsolved murders in a way that gets dark very very quickly, 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: and we're talking about a show Monster Presents Insomniac. This 25 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: is out now. It's available now, and please listen to 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: our show first because we have a special guest today, 27 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: a longtime friend of the show, personal friend of ours, 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: returning to stuff they don't want you to know. Conspiracy 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: Realists Welcome, Scott Benjamin. Well, thank you very much for 30 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: having me. I appreciate it. Hey, guys, just to break 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the fourth wall here for a moment. I am an 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: executive producer on this show, and we've been getting some 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: reviews on iTunes that discuss how they can't believe this 34 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: could ever be real, the stories that are put in here. 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: And you know, that's one of the big reasons we 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Scott to to actually have just 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: a conversation where we discuss what's actually affecting you and 38 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: how real this truly is. Yeah, let me tell you everything. 39 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: Everything that you hear on that show is real. It 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: really is. It did truly is it? What what happens 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: to me? What happens in the horrific stories that we tell. 42 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: It's all real, too real. No, I've often said, Scott, 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: full disclosure, you and I worked on a show together 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: for the better part of a decade. Uh, I've often 45 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: said about you, and I hope this doesn't offend you 46 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: that Scott Benjamin has two great fascinations cars and crime. 47 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: True and and when we were when we were hosting 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: Car Stuff, one of the first house Stuff Works podcasts, 49 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: people would be surprised. I think how how an occasion 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: old episode would morph into a true crime story like 51 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: the Dale Car right. Oh, absolutely, yeah. We we love 52 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: to kind of delve into some of the darker history 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: of automobiles and you know, some of the the lesser 54 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: known corners of of that. Uh I guess that whole experience, 55 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: you know, like you know what what it was all about. 56 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: And um, this kind of some surprising things that people 57 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: had no idea we're going on behind the scenes. So 58 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: for many people, Monster Presents Insomniac is a surprising turn, 59 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: right for people who have only known you through Car Stuff, 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: for instance, Could you tell us a little bit about 61 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: the inspiration for this series and and give us a 62 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: sense of what insomniac. Sure. Can I first tell you though, that, um, 63 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: this is a complete um ninety return from you or 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: a hundred eighty return for me? Really, um speaking in 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: car parlace exactly. I I just am not one to 66 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: really ever come forth with any kind of personal information, 67 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: you know, any kind of uh um information that you know. 68 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: Let's the listeners really know a lot about my personal life. 69 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we kind of touch on some things that 70 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: really aren't all that important. But when you're talking about 71 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: your sleep and you're talking about kind of your mental 72 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: well being, uh, that gets very personal very fast. And 73 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: you know your relationship with your family, and um, you 74 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: know how I interact with people here at work and 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: all of that is. So it's it's really really personal 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: story and it's uh, it's been tough for me along 77 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: the way. But um, you asked about the the inspiration 78 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: for this, and the inspiration really goes back decades. I've 79 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: been a true crime fan for probably thirty plus years, 80 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: maybe thirty five, maybe even forty years. I don't know. 81 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: I can't remember when I began. But UM, my father 82 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: has always been into true crime, and he he takes 83 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: full responsibility for this. By the way, my my addiction 84 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: to this because um, he has always been into, you know, 85 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: the same types of things that I have as far 86 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: as reading, and I picked it up from him, you know, 87 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: grabbing some old books off the shelf, you know, they 88 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: allowed me to borrow or something, and um, just kind 89 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: of reading through whatever he had, and then, um, you know, 90 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: eventually I started reading this stuff on my own. When 91 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: I had some free time. I'd do it, you know, 92 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: on vacation, I do it on an airplane, or you know, 93 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: reading at night before going to bed or something. And 94 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: it was always kind of fun. It was it was 95 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: a you know, a way to pass time, and and 96 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: I never really internalized it the way that I have 97 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: in the past several years. I guess, you know, I 98 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: want to ask you about that. You said your dad 99 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times in the show. You talk about 100 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: how your dad would right in the margins of a 101 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: lot of the books and try and solve the crimes. Yeah. Yeah, 102 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: And and we kind of got into a little bit 103 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: of why people are so into true crime or what 104 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: that fascination is. What would you say that is? Oh, gosh, 105 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: I think that it's just because it's so much more 106 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: fascinating than fiction. It always has been to me, and 107 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: I think the true crime readers will agree that you 108 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: can't make something up that's better than a true story. 109 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: I mean, when you really consider that this is this 110 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: is really happening to someone, has happened to somebody, or um, 111 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, you're just you're able to see both sides 112 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, and you know that it really happened. 113 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: You can look up court documents or police documents that 114 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,559 Speaker 1: that back everything up and say, like, oh my gosh, 115 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: this this really happened this way, and it's it's far 116 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: and I'll say I'll say greater. And you know, if 117 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: I say greater or better or anything like that, I 118 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 1: don't mean it in any offensive way. When you're talking about, 119 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, the death of somebody, that's awful, but it 120 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: is this, This does seem like these are greater stories 121 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: than fiction. I also, I've always thought that something might 122 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: have to do with the fact that people like to 123 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: feel better by comparison, or it's like, at least my 124 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: life is not this screwed up, or at least you know, 125 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: I'm not this, you know, psychopathic serial killer. Absolutely, it does, 126 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, in a in a horrific way. Horrible way. 127 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: It makes you feel better about yourself. You're right, and 128 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: that well at least you know, at least this isn't happening. 129 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: Maybe what I'm dealing with right now isn't so bad. 130 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: I can get through this. When we talk about these 131 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: kinds of stories on stuff that I want you to 132 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: know plenty, but the ones that are in your show 133 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: are a little more off the beaten path. They're kind 134 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: of something you maybe you haven't heard of, but are 135 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: just as horrific as say, like a Jeffrey Dahmer situation. Well, absolutely, 136 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: and that's what we were going for in this is 137 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: And I knew right from the very beginning when I 138 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: wanted to do a true crime show years and years ago, 139 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to tackle some of the 140 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: ones that have really gotten much much less pressed than 141 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: anybody else in any of the other stories. So you know, 142 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: you can go anywhere and here about Gaycy and Dahmer 143 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: and you know Ed Kemper and all those guys, and 144 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: and they're fantastic stories, but you've pretty much heard just 145 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: about everything you can about these people. But this at 146 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: this point, uh, there's you know, relatively few little bits 147 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: and pieces that you can dig up that are that 148 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: are kind of new to you. With these stories, hopefully 149 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: most of it, if not all of it, is brand 150 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: new to the listener. And uh, and I think you'll 151 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: find that they're equally as uh, you know, awful at 152 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: the same time entertaining and uh and just kind of 153 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: intriguing as you go through and you listen to each 154 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: of these stories, which are they're they're told in two 155 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: parts each one and it's a ten episode series, and uh, 156 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I think that you're gonna 157 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: find some surprises in here, some some real surprises. And 158 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily keep a PG. Thirteen it kind of 159 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: it delves into our rated territory pretty quick. So I 160 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: don't think this one's exactly for you know, young listeners, 161 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: but I'll leave that up to uh, everybody out there. Again, 162 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: when did you start reading the true crime books? Right? 163 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: So we're drawing in several threads here. One thing that's 164 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: fascinating about true crime is that crime itself often often 165 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: becomes an inherent conspiracy. Right, we conspire to rob a bank, 166 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: we conspire to kidnap or murder, not we not four 167 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: or five of us, but you get the point. Let's 168 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: let's before we delve into some of the specifics, because 169 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: there is one case that I know Matt and Noll 170 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: are very, very taken with. Now, before we dive into 171 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: the specifics, let's talk a little bit about insomnia itself, 172 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: because Insomniac does address something that you touched on earlier. 173 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: It's something that doesn't get talked about very often in 174 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: the world of true crime, which is the effect the 175 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: shows can have on the people creating them. And it's 176 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: always sort of a joke behind the scenes here when 177 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: at at how stuff works, we say, you know, don't 178 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: take your work hold with you. Everybody does to some degree. 179 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: So when did you start, well, first, what is insomnia? 180 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: And when did you start experiencing it? Was in the 181 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: course of creating this show. It really was in the 182 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: course of the of the show. And uh, and I 183 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: think I've kind of pinned down exactly what triggered this 184 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: in me, and I'll tell you about that as we 185 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: as we get to it. But um, yeah, I've had 186 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: some awful, awful sleepless nights and uh. And it goes 187 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: on for days at a time sometimes where you know 188 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: it's not it's not where you're awake continuously for ninety 189 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: six hours or something like that. You know, it's like 190 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: where you might be awake for forty hours at a 191 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: time and then get two hours of rest and then 192 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: have to function for a full workday and get home somehow, 193 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: and then you know, you get to three hours of 194 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: rest again, and then you're back again at work and 195 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: it just kind of goes on and on and on 196 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: like that, and you never feel like you can catch up. 197 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: And uh, and what that leads to is that, you know, 198 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: during the day, you fall asleep at your desk. You know, 199 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: inopportune times, you feel drowsy when you're not supposed to, 200 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: you feel wide awake when you're not supposed to be awake. Uh. 201 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: Your your cycle, your sleep cycle is just completely off. 202 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: It's just there's there's no way to shut down your 203 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: mind at night. There's no way to turn off the thoughts. 204 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: And it's just kind of this like continuous stream of 205 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: of worry and panic and paranoia and fear and all 206 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: of this that all these thoughts are just going through 207 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: your head and you cannot stop it. There's just no 208 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: way to get around it. And it's it's miserable and 209 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: I believe science is still trying to figure out the 210 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: specifics of what causes insomnia because they're different. There there 211 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: are different routes to the same condition. Correct, sure, yeah, 212 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: exactly right. And uh, one other thing that I was 213 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: kind of however, I have been, I guess, i'll say 214 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: legged with during this whole thing, is that when I 215 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: did fall asleep, I was having these horrific nightmares. And 216 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: these nightmares were extremely realistic and like really really vivid 217 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: dreams that we're making me think that during the day, 218 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: whatever I had dreamt the night prior had really happened. 219 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: So you know, if if I was like part of, 220 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, the cover up of some awful, awful crime 221 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: or something like that, I felt guilty the next day. 222 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: Um or if I was, you know, the one committing 223 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: that crime, I felt even worse. And you know, there 224 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: was just also some like incredible scenes where you know, 225 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: I'm in this world where I could tell you every 226 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: single detail about every single little thing, and it wasn't 227 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: like a typical dream where, uh, you know, like my 228 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: previous dreams I guess years prior, where you know, they're 229 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: a little little vague, little little fuzzy around the edges 230 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: these are crystal clear dreams, like I know everything about them. 231 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: I know all the characters in them, I know everything 232 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: about it. I can remember it the next day. Um, 233 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: It's just it's it's terrifying the next day, especially, you know, 234 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: if you're involved, like the worst case would be, you know, 235 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: I'm involved in a crime and somehow in this dream whatever, 236 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's a dead body, and I'm 237 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: helping to hide this dead body. And you can imagine 238 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: the guilt and the fear and the and the anxiety 239 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: and the paranois and all that that goes along with 240 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: something like that. I've never done anything like that in 241 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: my life, obviously, I'm telling you I've never done anything 242 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: like that in my life for real, Thanks Ben, No, 243 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: but really I never have. And uh and I never 244 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: hope to, of course. But you know, you get that 245 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: that that awful, just gut wrenching feeling that you know 246 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: you can't look anybody straight in the eye because you 247 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: feel so guilty about whatever you've done in your dream. 248 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: And I know people have other dreams that are you know, 249 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: maybe maybe sex dreams. Maybe they're you know, just dreams 250 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: that you've done something wrong at work or you've done 251 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: something wrong at home or you know, something else like that. 252 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: But uh, these that involve you know, the death of 253 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: another person. Oh man, it's it's it's rough. It's really rough. 254 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Scott, I've had some recur dreams 255 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: like that too, Or I've murdered a family friend and 256 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: I wake up and I feel as though I've done 257 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: it and that they're onto me, and that you know, 258 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: like they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna know, everyone's gonna know, 259 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: like I'm going to be found out. I almost you know, 260 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. I did had 261 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: no idea that you're going through that too. By the way, 262 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: but this year ago. It hasn't been in a while, 263 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: but I definitely that's a very distinct memory for me, 264 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: as having that dream and feeling instant guilt when I 265 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: woke up. Is it not true that you almost have 266 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: to contact that person or look up that person in 267 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: some way and and like reassure yourself that they're still around. 268 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: Maybe it's I I had that kind of sensation to 269 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: like they're like, how am I going to reassure myself 270 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: that this was a dream? And it wasn't real because 271 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: it's that it's that vivid, it's that realistic when it happens. 272 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking here about the edges of our consciousness. 273 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is hitting on a ton 274 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: of big issues like what truly is consciousness? What truly 275 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: is a dream? I mean, I know it sounds um 276 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: a little silly to go that big with it, but 277 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: it really does surround, surround all of these things, because 278 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: how how do we know for sure if we're having 279 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: that vivid of a dream that it is a dream? 280 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean just the nature of of them themselves, 281 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: of of sleeping and dreaming. Man, I want to bring 282 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: up things like the matrix. I want to bring up 283 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: things like uh yeah, yeah, exactly, just knowing who we are, 284 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: where we are when we are having that sense and 285 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: when you're going through a few state of having almost 286 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: no sleep, I can totally imagine exactly what. I can't 287 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: imagine what you're going through, Scott, but I can imagine 288 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: what that would be like. Yeah. You know, I I 289 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier what may have triggered some of these and 290 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: I think I I think I kind of have it 291 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: narrowed down to Um, I had for family deaths that were, 292 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, people that were pretty close to me within 293 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: a pretty short amount of time, um and aunt, both 294 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: my grandparents on my dad's side, and my mother passed away, 295 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: and you know, I it was during that time that 296 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: these dreams became the realistic dreams that they were, I guess, 297 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: and reading True crime kind of took a different turn, 298 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: you know. It wasn't it wasn't. I wasn't able to 299 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: disassociate myself with what I was reading so much as 300 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: more like I had more empathy, I guess for the 301 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: families and you know, the victims themselves, and you know, 302 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: it kind of understood a little bit more of what 303 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, a deep loss like that meant to them. 304 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: And uh and I don't know, maybe there was something there, 305 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: maybe that's what did it, But it seems to kind 306 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: of time out with with those losses, and you know, oddly, 307 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you that I lost two family pets 308 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: along the way at the same time. And that alone 309 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: is hard enough, because you know, you're talking about pets 310 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: that you've had for fifteen sixteen years, you know, at 311 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: a time, and that's tough on somebody as well. But 312 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: when you lose these people that are really close to you. Um, 313 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: and and you combine that with having having to kind 314 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: of immerse yourself in this in this these gritty, awful, 315 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: dirty crimes that we're talking about here, because it is 316 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: something I had to immerse myself in. It's it was work, 317 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, I had to had to do this all 318 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: day long, think about it at night, and come back 319 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: in and do it all day long again. And uh 320 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: and it did just kind of kind of wear on me. 321 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, Well, I'd just like to relate this 322 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: back to kind of us, um in the in the 323 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: show really fast. I know, we've all dealt with our 324 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: own sleeplessness at times what would generally be considered acute insomnia. Um, 325 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: it sounds like what you're dealing with is what would 326 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: be considered chronic insomnia. It's lasted for months now at 327 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: this point, right, or it's not longer than that. Seems 328 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: like maybe years at this point in some form or another. 329 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: I mean I have had broken sleep where you know, 330 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: I can't sleep for more than an hour at a 331 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: time without waking up and then staying awake for half 332 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: an hour at a time. And it's just there's a 333 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: lot of variations to what I'm going through right now 334 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: with sleep. Yeah, well, you know, for it for it 335 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: to be considered chronic insomnia, it only has to happen 336 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: three nights a week out of a week. Chronic for sure, then, 337 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: right absolutely? Yeah. Wow, that's that's intense and it's ongoing. 338 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's lasted a long 339 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: long time. Like I said, probably I want to say, 340 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: maybe even a couple of years at this point. It's 341 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: been pretty insane. I just wanted to relate it back 342 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: to you. I think we a lot of us listening 343 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: myself personally can at least identify with what would be 344 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: considered acute insomnia, where like, for maybe a couple of 345 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: days in a row, you don't get much sleep at all, 346 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: and you feel differently, or you're having trouble concentrating, or 347 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: you're feeling really drowsy. Probably a lot of us who 348 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: have been to college or and ory just been in 349 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: school ever, have felt that during you know, mid day 350 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: and a class or something. I'm assuming I'm just speaking 351 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: from my own experience, um, but I I wonder how 352 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: many people out there listening have dealt with something along 353 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: the lines of what Scott is describing, and we would 354 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: very much like to to hear from you if you've 355 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: ever experienced just blessness of that length, basically because I 356 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: can only imagine that that has has a way and 357 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: this is me speaking not from experience, but just I 358 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: can imagine that it has a way of amplifying whatever 359 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: it is that you're feeling in the moment or whatever 360 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: you're going through. Does that make sense, Yes, it does. 361 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: I have a few insomnia facts that I'm sure you're 362 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: well aware of, Scott, but this may help some of 363 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: our fellow listeners. Approximately one in four Americans will develop 364 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: insomnia this year. About thirty percent of adults have symptoms 365 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: of insomnia, ten percent have chronic insomnia. And it appears 366 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: that for a number of factors, or due to a 367 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: number of factors, insomnia in this country is on the rise. 368 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: And that may just be the age of spontaneity and 369 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: instant information. But we're not built to live in this society. Well, 370 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: we're also just such a mile a minute society wherever 371 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: things about maximizing your time and you know, not taking 372 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 1: time for yourself and everyone's like overstressed and overworked and 373 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: not doing that self care stuff and a big part 374 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: of the you know, self care is like an an 375 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: appropriate amount of sleep. You know, I can tell you 376 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: what it's like, you know, late in bed at night, 377 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: just with all these thoughts running through your head. I 378 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: can almost tell you exactly where to go to like 379 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: kind of understand what this is all about. And I 380 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: don't remember the name of this movie, but it was 381 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: Nicolas Cage and he played a weatherman in this movie. 382 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: I don't think it was it was it called the Weatherman. 383 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: It might have been. I think it was. It wasn't 384 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: really okay, well, he he had there were moments where 385 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: you were kind of in his head and you could 386 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: hear the stream of consciousness and it was just just 387 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: these it seemed like insane thoughts that were just all 388 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: over the board. They were all over He's thinking about 389 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: his kid, he's thinking about his job, he's thinking about 390 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: his relationship with his dad, he's thinking about his daughter, 391 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: he's thinking about everything, and uh, and that is exactly 392 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: what it's like. It's just thought after thought after thought. 393 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: You can't shut it down, you can't stop it. You can't, 394 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: you know, just turn it all off and go to 395 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: sleep and get that rest, that you need, and then 396 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: you know, worry about it the next day. It's like 397 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: it's it's there now and you've got to deal with 398 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: I wasn't meaning to imply that, like we're not taking 399 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: care of ourselves, because like insomnia as a choice, I 400 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: think it's sort of like a product of maybe not 401 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: having the ability to just to like kind of have 402 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: a little time of peace that's just for yourself. All 403 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: those thoughts are just worrying through your mind at all 404 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: time because you don't give yourself space or our society 405 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: doesn't give ourselves space to just kind of slow down 406 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: for a minute. Everything's like a mile a minute. And 407 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: if you're a family man, you know, you go from 408 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: work to being home and taking care of all of 409 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: that stuff, and there's just so many things that are 410 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: coming at you at all times. It's really hard to 411 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, quiet those thoughts. A lot of people will recommend, 412 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, meditation or you know, breathing exercises or you know, 413 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: the this this mantra that you can use in your head, 414 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, at night, just to kind of calm down, 415 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: and even even techniques. I was given techniques by a 416 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: psychologist recently that uh, we're techniques that were given to 417 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: military members, you know, if they're if they're um POWs, 418 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: and how they get to sleep, because it's critical that 419 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: they actually get to sleep if they're a because they'll 420 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: start becoming kind of almost insane if they go without 421 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: sleep for long, long periods of time. And of course 422 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: would be easy to not sleep in that situation. You'd 423 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: be so worried or so upset or her or whatever. 424 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: And you know, there's certain things that you can chant 425 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: to yourself over and over again in your head that 426 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 1: allow you to get to get to sleep and uh 427 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: and kind of shut it all down and then and 428 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: then kind of be fresh and and be alert and 429 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: kind of understand for them, you know, not to cough 430 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: up all the secrets that you know, whereas if you 431 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: know you were deprived of sleep, you might start talking 432 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: and uh. And that's one of the tactics that I've 433 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: been taught, and it didn't really work for me. None 434 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: of the breathing has worked for me. The meditation, I 435 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: just can't seem to get into the right the right 436 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: mindset to do it. And speaking of taking moments giving 437 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: oneself cognitive space, let's pause for a quick word from 438 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we'll be back with more from Scott 439 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: Benjamin and we have returned. So it sounds like one 440 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: of the things that can lead to insomnia would be 441 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: the persistent, unwelcome thoughts circling around like fish in a 442 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: in a fish bowl. Right. This reminds me a little 443 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: bit of the idea of the earworm, having a statue 444 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: of song stuck in your head, and for many people, 445 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: one of the ways to cure that thought, or to 446 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: break that curse of the earworm, is to go through 447 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: the entire song, you know, to to confront that which 448 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: is sort of a thorn in the side of our brain. Uh. 449 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: Mantras have been have been used with various results person 450 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: to person. It's interesting that you said this one didn't 451 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: quite do the job for you. And I think we 452 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: we talked off during the break about is I think 453 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: we're dying to know if you're comfortable. What is the mantra? 454 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: It is so simple, this is this is the most 455 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: simple thing you can imagine. It's it's simply the words 456 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: don't think, and you repeat the words don't think over 457 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: and over and over in your head. And if you're 458 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: just saying if you're concentrating on thinking, don't think. You're 459 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: not thinking about other things, and you you're just thinking 460 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: thinking about don't think. And you say that over and 461 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: over over again into your head until you finally fall asleep. 462 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: And I guess it works, but I just haven't been 463 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: able to get past, you know, several times of saying 464 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: don't think, and then you know, I'm back to thinking 465 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: about what I was thinking about before. And it's like 466 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: semantic satiation. Right when you say the words over and 467 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: over in your head, they begin to lose meaning. Yeah, 468 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: exactly right. And you know, the breathing exercises, they just 469 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: haven't worked for me either. It's like, you know, the 470 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: counting the uh, you know, the seconds that you've inhaled 471 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: and the seconds that you exhale and all that. You know, 472 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: it's supposedly the four count is the magic number for 473 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people, and uh, you know, inhale for 474 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: four and hold it, and exhale for four and hold it, 475 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: and it just doesn't work for me. I just haven't 476 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: been able to have much success with that. Wow. Well, 477 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: I want to get into something Ben mentioned there and 478 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: that idea and process of curing yourself of an earworm, 479 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: because I think that relates a lot to the motivations 480 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: behind making this show Monster Presents in Zomniac in the 481 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: first place, Like, why on earth if you are having 482 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: nightmares and sleeplessness due to these monsters, these killers, would 483 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: you continue making the podcast about these guys? Well, it 484 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: kind of came about at the same time, you know, 485 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, I guess they just sort of 486 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: developed around these the same time when I when I 487 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: began doing the research for this podcast, and I didn't 488 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: really have much trouble with it before, but then when 489 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: I started to really really dig deep into some of 490 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: these characters that we're going to talk about, Um, you know, 491 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: that's when the nightmares really kind of escalated, I suppose, 492 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: and and really got worse. And I wouldn't you know, 493 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: I would torture myself this way. And I know that, 494 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, the management here doesn't want me to, uh, 495 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, be sleepless all the time. And you know, 496 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: also you know it feels like I'm again they don't 497 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: want to seem like they're they're making me do this 498 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: and making my home life miserable or anything like that. 499 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: But um, that's just kind of what's happened along the way, 500 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to pull myself out of that right now, 501 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: and I think I'm I'm getting there, but I'm not 502 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: there yet. I'm not there yet. So I guess my 503 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: question is, Scott Benjamin, are you being forced to make 504 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: this show against your will? No? I'm not. No, I'm not. 505 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: I still enjoy, you know, the true crime stuff. It 506 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: has kind of taken a twist to where it's not, 507 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, the the fun, leisure time activity that it was. 508 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: But I I do enjoy still reading and I still 509 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: you know, at my desk, you'll still see me looking 510 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: up some you know, some kind of bad stuff and 511 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: some interesting characters. Let's put it that way, that, you know, 512 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: not the ones we're gonna talk about now, but maybe 513 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: even a whole new set. Maybe we'll we'll see what 514 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: happens there. Okay, So left the records show Matt Frederick 515 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: did not singlehandedly forced Gott benjam to make this very 516 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: difficult Yeah. Well, we also have the cameras with the 517 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: new eye tracking technology that we've been using, and they 518 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: can discern that he was, in fact telling the church. 519 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: You definitely didn't single handedly force Scott to do anything 520 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: because as people know, your street name is Maddie two 521 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: hands Frederick. Yeah, it was double handedly for sure if 522 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: it was right. So maybe let's dive in. Let's chase 523 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: some of these shadows. Let's walk a little further away 524 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: from the light here and see some of the cases 525 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: that that have I don't want to say inspired you're insomnia, 526 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: but have have been in lockstep with this condition. One 527 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: that Matt you and you know had mentioned before was 528 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: the case of a fellow named Stephen Mark McDaniel. Sure, 529 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: that's aka the Creepy neighbor. It's very creepy neighbor. And uh, 530 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, he's kind of a standout on this list. 531 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: He's a he's a guy that I don't think he well, 532 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: actually he's not a serial killer. He's he's a person 533 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: who killed one individual, but he was somebody that uh, 534 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: well myself included. But the authorities believe that this guy 535 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: would have been a serial killer had he been able 536 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: to continue. He was just really bad at what he 537 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: did and he got caught early early on. But uh, 538 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: there's some incredibly disturbing things about this character that uh 539 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: we'll come up in the podcast, and lots of detail 540 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: that um it's hard to overlook some of these, some 541 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: of these signs that he was well on his way 542 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: to becoming, you know, a lifetime criminal. Now, he was 543 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: a law student at some point, right he was, as 544 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: was his victim. They were at Mercer Law School in Making, Georgia, 545 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: and they were, um, I don't know if they were 546 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: necessarily in class together or not. They were in the 547 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: same graduating class. They had attended university together and knew 548 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: of each other. Um, him obviously a little bit more 549 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: in her. He was infatuated with her. She knew very 550 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: little of him. And they lived near each other in 551 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: the same apartment complex. You know, they were next door neighbors. 552 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: And ah, he had an unhealthy obsession with her. I 553 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: guess that's probably the best way to put it. And uh, 554 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: and she really didn't understand that, didn't know it until 555 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: it was far too late. And one of one of 556 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: the craziest things about this is how the public learned 557 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: about it, specifically the local population in Making, Georgia. It 558 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: was a it was a local TV station that they 559 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: were conducting interviews outside of the apartment complex. Where where 560 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: was it where Stephen and Lauren live? Correct and Stephen 561 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: happened to be walking near them or something and agreed 562 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: to do an interview. Yes, yeah, absolutely, she the the 563 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: the reporter grabbed Stephen and uh, and you know that 564 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: that's the thing. I I've got a theory about that 565 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: that I'll come to in just a moment. But she 566 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: grabbed him and had him do a quick and of 567 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: view and he looks all disheveled and and a little 568 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: bit wild eyed, and his hair is kind of crazy, 569 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: and he's just an unusual looking guy to begin with. Um, 570 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: you'll understand what I mean if you see him. Um. 571 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: And he gives this, uh, this interview, which, when you're 572 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: looking back, is like the worst acting job you've ever 573 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: seen in your life. When you when you really, you know, 574 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 1: investigate what happened and understand what was going on right 575 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: at that moment. This is just one key element of 576 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: the story, and I guess maybe a bit of a 577 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: plot twist in it is that during the interview, the 578 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: reporter mentions to him that they have located a body 579 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: on the property or nearby this ye, and he immediately 580 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: just goes quiet, goes goes completely catatonic, and and stares 581 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: at the lens of the camera and can't believe what's 582 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: going on, and it says, you know, kind of stammers body, 583 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, like he's he can't believe it. And then 584 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: he kind of staggers away from the camera, sits down 585 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: for a while, says he needs to sit down and rest, 586 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: and you know they're trying to comfort him, trying to 587 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: console him, because he up until this point had been 588 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: involved in the supposed search for Lauren's body. Um, even 589 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: though he knew exactly where she was, knew exactly what 590 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: had happened to her. It was it's just it's it's 591 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: really a remarkable piece of footage. And they do bring 592 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: him back on the camera later and have him talk, 593 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: and you know he's supposedly really upset, and you know 594 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: he's crying these crocodile tears. Um. You know how how 595 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: concerned he is over what's going on, and you know 596 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 1: how he was so close to Lauren and how you know, 597 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: everybody loved her. I can't imagine what happened. Somebody must 598 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: have you know, snatched her in the park when she's 599 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: out for a jog or something like that. You know, 600 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: he's just beside himself with with fear and worry, and 601 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: you know anger about this, but uh, all along, you know, 602 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: it's pretty evident what's really happening. But I mean, geez, like, 603 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: for someone who reacted so poorly, like why do you 604 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: think he would have put himself out there like that? 605 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: You think he was just kind of cocky and I 606 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: didn't think he was gonna get caught or that he 607 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: had done the perfect crime or something. So this is 608 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: my theory. And I mentioned this just a moment ago, 609 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: but I I truly feel like Steven kind of put 610 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: himself in a position to be interviewed, to get himself 611 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: on camera, and to be able to kind of say like, I, Hey, 612 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. I'm just a neighbor, 613 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm clear of this whole thing. He 614 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: thought he was in the clear. And a lot of 615 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: these guys, a lot of you know, just about every 616 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: case that you'll read about with serial killers or killers 617 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: like this, like like Steven McDaniel, you'll find that they 618 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: have this, uh, this narcissistic tendency where they feel like 619 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,959 Speaker 1: they're a lot smarter than everybody else in there. And 620 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: it's like, this is his moment to kind of stand 621 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: right there where the crime happened right in front of 622 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: where the crime happened, and say to everybody else, you know, 623 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, you idiots aren't looking in the right spot. 624 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: I know exactly where she is, and I'm just gonna 625 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: lie to you, right to your face and tell you 626 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: exactly what's going you know what, I'm what I want 627 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: you to think, and you're gonna take it and kind 628 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: of believe it. I feel like this is like just 629 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: kind of like the the ultimate you know, like I'll 630 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: show you move from a killer. And we've seen this 631 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: before with other killers, and in fact, another one in 632 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: this series does something similar, like another another really had 633 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: on camera interview with the with the local news station, 634 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: and again, I feel like it's just that narcissistic tendency 635 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: for these guys to say, you know, I'm a lot 636 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: smarter than you and you're just not looking in the 637 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: right spot. I can tell you where they are. I'm 638 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: not going to Can we can we just mention who 639 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: that is? It's yeah, definitely, it's the it's the first 640 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: couple of stories that we're gonna talk about in Insomniac, 641 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's her Baumeister. Her Baumeister was interviewed by 642 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: a local Indianapolis television station, right on the very property 643 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: where all of his bodies were buried. And he's doing it, 644 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, right at the at the base of his driveway, 645 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: with his property in the background, and he's talking about 646 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: some uh you know, an animal that was striped over 647 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: on the road. Uh you know, road crew ran over 648 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: a raccoon with a striping machine and he's just outraged 649 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: over the treatment of this poor little animal. But you know, 650 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: right behind him are the dead bodies of of all 651 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: these young men that he had been killing on his property. 652 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: So it's a bizarre interview, but he gives no outward 653 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: appearance of being anything other than just a typical, you know, 654 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: small businessman, and he's very concerned about what's happening there 655 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: in his community. And it's it's just a bizarre, bizarre interview. 656 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: Chilling r It really is. I mean, when you when 657 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: you consider what was happening at the time in that 658 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: individual's life and particular in particular right on that property 659 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: right where the camera crew crew was. He's got the 660 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: ultimate secret right there behind him, and he's he's just 661 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: not letting anybody through that he's he's got that that 662 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: that hard veneer that he's not letting anybody look beyond 663 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: and Bambaster had uh quite a quite a body count 664 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: right there was still he's he's passed away. Now you 665 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: want to spoil the means of his death, but he 666 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: is no longer on on the planet in corporeal form, 667 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: and he is still being linked to more murders, I 668 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: believe through the eighties and the nineties. Yeah, I believe so. Um. Well, 669 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: they they tied him to some stranglings that happened on 670 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: I seventy prior to him owning the home where he 671 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: was interviewed, where we're talking about you know this, uh 672 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: this interview happening, and uh what happens is the you know, 673 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: the the victims are all the same age, the same weight, 674 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: you know, the same demographic basically as um the ones 675 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: that he killed on his property. But as soon as 676 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: he bought this home, the highway killing stopped and his 677 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: killings began. And so it's very very likely that you know, 678 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: his victim count was officially I think eleven, you know, 679 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: what he's convicted of. They believe that it went as 680 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: high as twenty or possibly more. You know, if they 681 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: can tie him to all of the others that they 682 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: didn't have any kind of physical evidence, you know, for 683 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: isn't it terrible? How when we speak of these things, 684 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about body count, you know, as the number 685 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: of victims. When you're thinking about some of these most 686 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: notorious serial killers, and it's their body count a lot 687 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: of times is one of those things that becomes it's 688 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: the number of the stat that people look forward to, 689 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: like how prolific they were or whatever. Um. But yeah, 690 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: just the fact that eleven people lost their lives because 691 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: of this guy, at least at least and that's eleven families, 692 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: and you know that the number of people affected by that, 693 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: it grows exponentially, you know. I mean it's there's somebody 694 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: that cared about that person. There's somebody, you know, lots 695 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: of people probably they cared about that person. Friends, family, associates, 696 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, whatever it happens to be. Um, you know, somebody, 697 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: somebody raised that person, you know, to the point where 698 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: they were killed. And all of the effort and the 699 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: time and the love and you know, the care that 700 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: went into raising that person and being close to that person, 701 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: all that's just taken away for a senseless reason so quickly. 702 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: And and so just again senselessly. It's there's there's no 703 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: reason for this other than you know, one person's selfishness, 704 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: one person's you know, desire to um, well, just to 705 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: I guess be lawless. I don't know, I don't know 706 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: how better to put this than um. You know, it's 707 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: just they're they're succumbing to their urges and and it's 708 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: just it's horrific. So what circumstances led to Ballmeister's apprehension 709 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: did they find? Uh? They found it was. It's kind 710 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: of a twisted story and it it's probably one of 711 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: the first few things you're gonna hear an episode one 712 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: where he is he's kind of tracked down to an 713 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: area in Canada and they discover his body. Really because 714 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: he knew he had been found out, you know, he 715 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: knew that he was being tracked at that time. He 716 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: had gotten early word when he was in a different 717 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: part of Indiana. Um. He was visiting his mother at 718 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 1: the time in northern Indiana and had fled from their 719 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: understanding what was going on in Indianapolis at his home. 720 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: He knew that, you know, the time was up for him, 721 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: and he he began to run and he realized at 722 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: some point, you know, I'm not gonna be able to 723 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: outrun this. I'm not going to be able to to 724 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: ever go back to the life that I had. I 725 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: can't live like this. So, you know, he decided to 726 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: take care of himself. I guess, if you want to 727 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 1: put it that way, and uh, he never ever there's 728 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, a lot of these guys 729 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: do uh. He never accepted blame for any of these murders. 730 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: He never mentioned any of the murders really in his 731 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: suicide note. Um. But it's it's kind of shocking you. 732 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: You would think that it would be your time to 733 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: come clean and you know, just clearly conscious that one 734 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: last time. But he never ever admitted to any of it. 735 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: And perhaps in a very real way, he compartmentalized his 736 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: his killing persona and his day to day her bombinster persona. Oh. 737 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: I believe that completely. I think it's two separate individuals. 738 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: I mean, he you know, it's a Dr Jekyll Mr. 739 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: Hyde thing, you know, where Um, you know, I I 740 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: believe that there were there were times when he felt 741 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: it was safe for him to do this, or it 742 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: was it was the right thing for him to do. 743 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: And other times when you know, he had to play 744 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: the part of the businessman and the family man and 745 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: and kind of keep it all together on the surface 746 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: for the community and for you know, his own reputation. Um, 747 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: although there were a lot of cracks in that reputation. 748 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: You know, he found that you know, he um did 749 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: a lot of troubles along the way, I guess for her, 750 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: but you know, hit and run accidents and you know, uh, 751 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: speeding tickets and he was drinking a lot of work 752 00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It was just there were a 753 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of probably a lot of 754 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: flags exactly right, and more than that, even but he 755 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: seemed to get around it, and he seemed to, like 756 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: you said, compartmentalize it. I think in a in a 757 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,919 Speaker 1: way that worked for him. Let's pause for a moment here, 758 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: we'll have a word from our sponsor, and then we 759 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: will return with more Insomniac. And we have returned, we 760 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: should say that we're giving these cases a high level 761 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: look to give give you a taste of what we're 762 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: exploring in Insomniac, But the episodes themselves are very deep dives. 763 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: Would you say that's accurate? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, 764 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: we're we're not giving anything away here. I know, we 765 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 1: were kind of revealing a few little, you know, secrets 766 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: here and there, But there's so much more to each 767 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: one of these stories that that like, no matter how 768 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: much we reveal here, there's gonna be so much more 769 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: revealed in those episodes. Well, let's take a look at 770 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: at least one more person of interest. Could you tell 771 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: us a little bit about Arthur shaw Cross. This person 772 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: was unfamiliar to me, which is surprising sometimes. Yeah. Well, yeah, 773 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: you know a lot of a lot of you know, 774 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: a lot of criminals. Ben, I don't mean to sound 775 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: that way. I mean, you know, yeah, I'm kind of surprised, 776 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: but um, this is the Rochester Strangler. This is a 777 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: guy that, um he had an interesting criminal career, I 778 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: guess because it was broken up by a couple of decades, 779 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: really right, Yeah, Well, you know, he wasn't necessarily dormant 780 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,800 Speaker 1: as he as much as he was um um incarcerated. 781 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: So you know, he he served his time for some 782 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: horrific crimes. Um of course, in in Rochester. He then 783 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: was was put in jail for I believe it was 784 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: like fifteen years or something like that. He should have 785 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: been in prison for probably for the rest of his 786 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: life or what he had done. I'm not going to 787 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 1: tell you what he did, but uh, he should should 788 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: have been in jail for the rest of his life. 789 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: He was let out early, um, and I went almost 790 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: in media, right back to killing again. But he had 791 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: a completely different set of victims, a different type of 792 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: victims that he was after at that point. So his 793 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: his crime spanned from you know, the early nineteen seventies 794 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: all the way to about nineteen eighty nine. Um. You know, 795 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: the second set actually goes from gosh, I don't know when, 796 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: probably I want to say, like the maybe early eighties 797 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: until about nineteen nine. And uh, the victim count, as 798 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: we you know, we've already talked about this horrific victim 799 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: count thing. Um, it could have been stopped at two 800 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: I'll put it there. And and after he was released, 801 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: he killed an additional twelve people. So you know, that 802 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: just shows you what a mistake it was to let 803 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: this guy out. And some of the things that he 804 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: did were just horrific. I mean, some of the details 805 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: are the stuff of nightmares and and we're the stuff 806 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: of nightmares for me for a while. Um. But yes, 807 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: some some really really bad things going on. I mean, 808 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: he he claimed he was also kind of a liar 809 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: and a bragger, and he embellished a lot of his 810 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: his crimes. But what he truly did, what they discuss 811 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: her that he did, was nearly as bad as as 812 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: his own fantasy world that he lived in. We talked 813 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: about the previous two guys that found a way to 814 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: insert themselves onto television to almost as a wink and 815 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: a nod of like, here I am, you'll never catch me. 816 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: There's something with this character shaw Cross that he did 817 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: where I think correct me if I'm wrong, but I 818 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: think he frequented a bar that was kind of known 819 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,720 Speaker 1: as a police hang out, actually was dunkin Donuts. Dunkin Donuts, 820 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: I think you're thinking of Edmund. Edmund Kemper went to 821 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: a bar that was he So this is not uncommon. 822 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 1: I mean, this happens with other criminals as well. They 823 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: want to get kind of the inside track on what 824 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: the police are up to. So Duncan Donuts is where 825 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: you get that. Yeah, let's you know, it's a funny stereotype, 826 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 1: I know, but it's true. He he found the dunkin 827 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 1: Donuts that was near his home where the police were 828 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: hanging out, and these guys would go into the dunkin 829 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: Donuts and they would kind of discuss what they were 830 00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: dealing with, what they were you know, kind of openly. 831 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: Once they were familiar with, you know, the regulars that 832 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: would come in at which shaw Cross was won. He 833 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 1: would just kind of sit at the counter and listen 834 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: to what they were doing, and he would you know, 835 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: talk with him occasionally, but he didn't really insert himself 836 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: into the conversation quite as much. He would just listen 837 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: to what's happening, and and by playing this kind of 838 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: cat and mouse game with them, you know, there's a 839 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: lot of these guys do um. He was able to 840 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: function in the way that he wanted to longer than 841 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: he normally would have because he had the inside scoop 842 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 1: on what they were up to and what they were 843 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,840 Speaker 1: gonna where they were going to do, the stings that 844 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: they were going to set up to try to capture him, 845 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,439 Speaker 1: you know, where they were going to be that day 846 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: to kind of look, you know, if they're gonna be 847 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: down by the river, if they're gonna be um, you know, 848 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: at the playground, whatever they were gonna be doing, you know, 849 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: to look for this guy. He knew he had the 850 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: inside scoop and and Edmund Kemper did a similar thing 851 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: at a bar and I think it was called the 852 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: jury room, was across from the courthouse, and he befriended 853 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: police as well, and you know, the same type of thing. 854 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: And when you know, it came right down to it, 855 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: Edmund Kemper when he actually you know, he's trying to 856 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: confess at some point, and he called the police and 857 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: they didn't even believe him. He had to call several 858 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: times and give them, you know, very accurate information about 859 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: what he had done in order to convince them that, yeah, 860 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: he was he was the one guilty for this. He 861 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: is responsible. Also, he's anomalous in that he does have 862 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: a higher i Q. A lot of these killers tend 863 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: to be lower in the in the intelligence spectrum, right, 864 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: So he has Kemper as that chilling interview upon which 865 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: the series mind Hunter has based more than a few episodes, 866 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: wherein he describes in first person and here's Shaw Shaw 867 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: crosses is I would call him one of the I 868 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: guess lower i Q lower than Kemper at least, and uh, 869 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: he just he was smart enough though, to understand where 870 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: he needed to be and what, you know, the information 871 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: that he needed to gather in order to continue to 872 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 1: again function the way that he was functioning at that time, 873 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,240 Speaker 1: and um, it just it just allowed him to continue 874 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 1: to do what he wanted to do. M So we 875 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: touched on something briefly that I think bears further examination here, 876 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: and that is the idea of the survivors, the relatives, 877 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: the loved ones, of the victims of for those people, 878 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: as anyone who has been involved in a tragedy like 879 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: this is well aware, for those people, the murder never 880 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: really stops happening, right, And we can be stuck in 881 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: that moment the same way you can be stuck hearing 882 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,479 Speaker 1: the same segment of a song or telling yourself, don't think, 883 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: don't think, don't think. What what do you what? What 884 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: have you learned about the way at least us society 885 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: treats uh the loved ones, the survivors of these tragedies. 886 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: Do you think that there is any sand to the 887 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: idea that this country may glorify UH serial killers? Yeah, 888 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: I think, unfortunately, I think that that's the case. It's 889 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: been the case in the past. I think that they're 890 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: they're getting a lot better at this now. I think 891 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,720 Speaker 1: some of these mass shooters that we hear about recently, 892 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, some of the ones that that kill everybody 893 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 1: all at once, you know, in one day, not a 894 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: serial killer necessarily, but you know, some of these some 895 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: of the news outlets are trying to avoid using the 896 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: name of the person, trying to give them a little 897 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: less fame for what they've done, because I think a 898 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: lot of people are well we've probably heard this, They've tried, 899 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,439 Speaker 1: they're trying to kind of outdo each other, and it's 900 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: horrific game that they're playing. Um. I think there may 901 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: be doing a little bit less of that when you 902 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to you know, capturing like the Golden 903 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: State killer, um or capturing you know, uh, serial killers 904 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 1: that you know are maybe local that you know, we 905 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: don't hear about, you know, national, nationwide, brother you'll probably 906 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: hear their names in the papers still, and I think 907 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: they're doing a better job of it. I think that 908 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: they're trying to minimize that so that they're not glorified 909 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: with the way they were. Um. As far as like 910 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: the you know, the treatment that the families received, I 911 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: think there's still a lot of compassion that's given uh 912 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: to the families of the victims by the police, by 913 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: you know, supporting, um, members of the of the force. 914 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: You know that the psychologists or you know, whoever happens 915 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: to come in and you have to like kind of 916 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: talk the kids through this thing. And Um, I don't know, 917 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: maybe I'm maybe I'm talking myself into a corner here, 918 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,439 Speaker 1: but no, no, I feel like I feel like there's 919 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: still a lot of compassion for the people that have 920 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: to go through this, are the victims families. But um, 921 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: maybe they're they're definitely not not glorifying the killer quite 922 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: as much as they have been in the last couple 923 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: of decades, right, because especially in the eighties and nineties, 924 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: Who was this huge phase of that, and in some 925 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: ways it could be seen as a successor to the 926 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: earlier cultural practice of glorifying other criminals, right, you know, 927 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: like uh, Bonnie and Clyde, for instance. It reminds me 928 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: of a most wanted list or something that's plastered all 929 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,840 Speaker 1: over town or something to that effect, where everybody in 930 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: town knows the face of those bad people that we're chasing, 931 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: right Right, that's a very I mean, it's a very 932 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: good point. It's one that we have to address. I 933 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: don't know whether there is an answer, because it's also 934 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: important to be aware of this. This is more horrible 935 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: than horror fiction, and it's important to be armed with 936 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: this information. One thing, stop me if this is too 937 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: far into spoil or territory. But one thing I'm very 938 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: curious about Scott is, um, did you find or have 939 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: you found, in the course of your research something that 940 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: completely surprised you or if you had to pick one 941 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: or two moments that sort of stayed with you more 942 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: so than you know, the I hate to say typical, 943 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: but the regular stuff that stayed with you. Was there 944 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: anything that just caught you flat footed? Well, there are 945 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: a couple of things. Yeah, I can point to a 946 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: couple of things, and one I'm not going to give 947 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: you too much detail on because it's the end of 948 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: the series and I don't want to really reveal where 949 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: we're going with this whole thing. But um gosh, there 950 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: there are a few things. One one was that, um, 951 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the characters that were going to talk about 952 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: in this series is is uh. His name is Donald 953 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: Henry pee Wee Gaskins, Jr. And he goes by pee Wee. 954 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: It's funny name, I know, but this guy is bad. 955 00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: He's bad, I mean really bad guy. And uh, he's 956 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: he was known as the meanest man in America at 957 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: one point, and there's very very good reason for that. 958 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: He wrote a book that was called The Final Truth. 959 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: He wrote it himself. He actually had a ghostwriter, you know, 960 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: somebody who came in and sat down with him on 961 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: death row and he just kind of let it all out. 962 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he knew he was going to be executed. 963 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: He knew that. You know, this was it. It was 964 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: him coming clean for all of his crimes, everything bad 965 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: that he did. It was all like, this is all 966 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: real stuff. It was all, you know, proven at some point. Um. 967 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: Now he of course, I think there's a little bit 968 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: of embellishment, because that's the way these guys operate, you know, 969 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: there's a little bit. But but the killings themselves, the 970 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: ones that he is guilty of, he he fesces up 971 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 1: to in great detail and tells you exactly what happened. Uh, 972 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: in pretty good detail, I mean real serious detail. Um, 973 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: probably more than you would want to know. Um. I've 974 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,320 Speaker 1: read the whole book, and it was it was pretty shocking. 975 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: You know, the only one that I can think of 976 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 1: that comes even close to this as a as another 977 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: one that was written by another killer is. His last 978 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: name was Schaefer Gerard Shaffer, I think is his name, 979 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,560 Speaker 1: And in that book he UM describes it was called 980 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 1: killer Fiction and he played it off his fiction. But 981 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: I don't think much of that book was fiction. I 982 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: think a lot of it was was based on his 983 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,240 Speaker 1: his crimes, or at least his fantasies of the crimes 984 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 1: that he did commit. So uh, there's a lot of 985 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 1: parallels to you know, what he really had had done 986 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,320 Speaker 1: in his real life. And those two books are probably 987 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,800 Speaker 1: about the only two that have really kind of disturbed 988 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: me to the point, you know, like far beyond any 989 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: other true crime book that I've ever read. And the 990 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: other thing that has kind of stuck with me is 991 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 1: is the very last person that we're going to talk 992 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: about in this whole series. And there's a reason this 993 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: guy was put off to the end. He's the he's 994 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: the one that um I found the most disturbing. His 995 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,800 Speaker 1: name is, his name is Dean Coral. He's called the 996 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: candy Man, and Dean was unique in a way that 997 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: UM he had two teenage accomplices that helped him with 998 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,880 Speaker 1: his murders, and the way that they went about this, 999 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: the coldness, to callousness, the depravity that they showed throughout 1000 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,280 Speaker 1: this whole thing. Um, it's just it's far beyond anything 1001 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,760 Speaker 1: any other criminal that I've ever read about. He's probably 1002 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: one of the worst people that I've I've ever read 1003 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 1: about my whole life. And I've read many many true 1004 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: crime books and and know of a lot of you know, 1005 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: the typical or the more common killers that you know 1006 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,759 Speaker 1: most of us have probably heard of. Um, but this one, Uh, 1007 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 1: this story goes above and beyond it. It's horrific just 1008 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: to jump in there. I remember the first time I 1009 00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: listened to the last two episodes in early cuts, and 1010 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,239 Speaker 1: I turned I kept turning it off because I could 1011 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: not listen to it. Yeah, it's it's uh, it's shocking 1012 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 1: the way that you know, he had had command of 1013 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: these two teenage accomplices and what they did for him 1014 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,800 Speaker 1: and and with him, and you're you're gonna find it, 1015 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,320 Speaker 1: You're gonna find it pretty uh, pretty disturbing, let's just 1016 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: put it that way. Honestly, Scott, When I think about 1017 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,799 Speaker 1: that case in those episodes. It gives me a better 1018 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,800 Speaker 1: understanding of why and how something like this could affect 1019 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 1: you if you have just an ounce of empathy, you know, 1020 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 1: like seeing through the eyes of some of those victims 1021 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,719 Speaker 1: just enough, I can imagine how it would bring about 1022 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 1: nightmares and anxieties and fears and all of that. I 1023 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,800 Speaker 1: see it, we see. That's the thing is that, you know, 1024 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,879 Speaker 1: prior to all of this, I didn't really come at 1025 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: it with that sense of empathy. And I've kind of 1026 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: developed that over you know, the last several years and 1027 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: um more so, you know, probably because of what I've 1028 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 1: been going through my own personal life, and it does 1029 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 1: affect you differently. So you know, I don't mean to 1030 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: sound whiny about any of this or anything like that. 1031 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,800 Speaker 1: It's it's just that's just the way that things have 1032 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 1: kind of progressed for me, and I'm trying to get 1033 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: away from that. I'm trying to, you know, I guess 1034 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 1: shut that off a little bit more and trying to, uh, 1035 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,799 Speaker 1: it's awful to say it become a little bit more 1036 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 1: hardened again against this type of thing because I do 1037 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 1: I do enjoy reading this stuff. It's it's interesting to 1038 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 1: me still, but but coming from that point with with 1039 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 1: that empathy, that does make it a lot more difficult. 1040 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:24,480 Speaker 1: And until you have that sensation, that feeling or that understanding, 1041 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: I don't know if you can really put yourself in 1042 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 1: that in that same or that similar situation, like maybe 1043 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: what you know the person next to you who's reading 1044 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: the same thing is going through you know, it's it's 1045 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,399 Speaker 1: all different for everybody. Well, and I think you maybe 1046 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear, but this condition that you're struggling with 1047 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,080 Speaker 1: did develop like in tandem with you kind of developing 1048 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,160 Speaker 1: the show, and it sort of became part of the 1049 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 1: show organically where it just made sense. It wasn't like 1050 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 1: a clever pitch. It was literally this is Scott's life. 1051 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,799 Speaker 1: And I remember seeing you in the office a couple 1052 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,520 Speaker 1: of times, and I actually had a month of pretty 1053 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,319 Speaker 1: bad insomnia myself. We talked about it a couple of times, 1054 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:00,719 Speaker 1: and that was actually when I is realized that you 1055 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,440 Speaker 1: were having those troubles because I told you about my 1056 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: troubles and we were kind of sharing, you know, ideas 1057 00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: like what to do about it or whatever. And I 1058 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,520 Speaker 1: think it was sometime around that same time when I 1059 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: kind of took an informal poll around the office with 1060 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, who's having sleeping trouble? And I think a 1061 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: lot of people did. A lot of them said, you know, 1062 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,440 Speaker 1: I don't sleep more than three or four hours a 1063 00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,600 Speaker 1: night most nights, and you know, I have a lot 1064 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,359 Speaker 1: of worry about work and you know, about personal things 1065 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: or whatever. And you know, not to get anybody's you know, 1066 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,480 Speaker 1: personal business or anything, but you know a lot of 1067 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: people are having sleep issues around here that. I mean, 1068 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 1: most of the people in the office are. And I 1069 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: would bet if this is just kind of a microcosm 1070 00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,480 Speaker 1: of what's going on everywhere else, most people are doing, 1071 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, or having some issues with sleep, you know, 1072 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,279 Speaker 1: whether it's something kind of minor, or you know, it's 1073 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,640 Speaker 1: something a little a little tougher, a little you know, 1074 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,799 Speaker 1: something that really causes some problems, you know, at home 1075 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: and at work. And I bet a lot of people 1076 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 1: are going through that. How would you say the insomniac 1077 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: components of the show, Like there's sort of these discreet 1078 00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 1: moments in the show where you talk about this, how 1079 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,040 Speaker 1: would you say those kind of informed the bigger story 1080 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,160 Speaker 1: or like what do you want people to take away 1081 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,320 Speaker 1: from that? Well? I think actually, you know what it's funny, 1082 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit it's kind of separate in 1083 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 1: a way. And I try to tell the story just 1084 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,839 Speaker 1: so that it's it's just a story, so that it's 1085 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, this this horrific true crime story and it's 1086 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 1: something that you haven't heard before. But then my own 1087 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,239 Speaker 1: personal part of this whole thing, it's just kind of 1088 00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: like something that we've we've added here and there to 1089 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,920 Speaker 1: kind of let people know, you know, what's happening at 1090 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,279 Speaker 1: the time, you know, like what I was feeling at 1091 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,440 Speaker 1: the time, what's good, what I'm going through, And uh, 1092 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,640 Speaker 1: it's I'm trying to keep them separate. And I'm kind 1093 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:33,239 Speaker 1: of like, I'm trying to keep all this, you know, 1094 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,760 Speaker 1: the work stuff separate from my personal life. And it's 1095 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,880 Speaker 1: a good Um, I don't know, it's a good analogy 1096 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:40,400 Speaker 1: for that, I guess is that, you know, trying to 1097 00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 1: just kind of keep one thing here, one thing there, 1098 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,279 Speaker 1: and and keep them apart as much as I can, 1099 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,400 Speaker 1: but they do come together to form this whole story 1100 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 1: and this, you know, that's that's part of who I 1101 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,400 Speaker 1: am right now at this moment. And uh, and I 1102 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: guess you're you're getting to see a glimpse of that 1103 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 1: you're getting to see. You know what that's all about, 1104 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, the melding of these two things. You certainly 1105 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,799 Speaker 1: look like Scott, Benjamin that I remember from from car 1106 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: stuff and the guy who portrayed the Zodiac. Wait a second, 1107 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: did you like become the Zodiac Killer? Tell what this 1108 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 1: is about? Absolutely not man, just the voice of I'll 1109 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,120 Speaker 1: give you a little flavor that. Well. The show is 1110 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 1: called Monster Presents Insomniac. It is available now wherever you 1111 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:30,759 Speaker 1: find your favorite chilling podcast. Scott, thank you so much 1112 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,120 Speaker 1: for coming by and and hanging out with us today 1113 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: and giving us, giving us a firsthand exploration of this 1114 00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:43,520 Speaker 1: unique approach to true crime. Uh. And I've got to 1115 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:48,000 Speaker 1: say I appreciate it, but I am very worried for you. Well, 1116 00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,040 Speaker 1: no need to worry, Ben, I'm I'm kind of on 1117 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,439 Speaker 1: the men now. I'm getting I'm getting better slow but sure. 1118 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,279 Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of figuring this, uh, the sleep thing 1119 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:56,880 Speaker 1: out a little bit, you know, day by day, and 1120 00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: I'm i am getting better. Um So no worries there. 1121 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 1: Um I should be back to normal pretty soon here, 1122 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,040 Speaker 1: I would I would think, I hope anyway, but I 1123 00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:06,360 Speaker 1: do want to thank you know, all three of you 1124 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: been mad Noll, all of you for letting me come 1125 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: in here and share the space with you today. I 1126 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,960 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. And I hope I haven't talked too much. 1127 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,160 Speaker 1: It feels like I've been kind of taking over the show. 1128 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to do that, but this is uh, 1129 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,000 Speaker 1: that's that's what being it, guess is all about highlight 1130 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:22,920 Speaker 1: your story and your show and we we love it 1131 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 1: and where we we love you Scott always. Thank you 1132 00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: very much. I appreciate it, and uh, and I have 1133 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,359 Speaker 1: felt like, you know, people have been, you know, kind 1134 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,759 Speaker 1: of compassionate about this, you know, understanding of what I've 1135 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,279 Speaker 1: been going through. And and uh, I hope other people 1136 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,919 Speaker 1: out there that you know, are suffering with the same 1137 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 1: type of thing. Have somebody that can, you know, kind 1138 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:39,640 Speaker 1: of help them along with it. Two And you can 1139 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,600 Speaker 1: talk about it, you can you know, figure it out, 1140 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,319 Speaker 1: because you do have to figure out it. It will 1141 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,920 Speaker 1: it will destroy you quickly. And what are your personal 1142 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:52,359 Speaker 1: experiences with insomnia? Are you one of those twenty five 1143 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 1: percent of Americans who will acquire insomnia this year or 1144 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: already has. If so, how do you address it? How 1145 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,919 Speaker 1: do you deal with it. Do you do you think 1146 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,640 Speaker 1: this is just something that we deal with now the 1147 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,319 Speaker 1: way our society is, right? Is it the new normal? Yeah? 1148 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,080 Speaker 1: Or is it something specific? Is there something going on 1149 00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,879 Speaker 1: specifically that we're we're all grappling with who knows? Tell 1150 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: us about it. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram 1151 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:22,400 Speaker 1: and Twitter. We highly recommend our community page. Here's where 1152 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,120 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. You can give us a phone call 1153 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,280 Speaker 1: where we are one eight three three st d w 1154 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,360 Speaker 1: y t K. Leave us a message you might get 1155 00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,840 Speaker 1: on the air if you choose to get on there. 1156 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: Let us know if you do not want that, or 1157 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,080 Speaker 1: if you don't want to be named any specifics, just 1158 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 1: leave it in that message. If you want to find 1159 00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 1: us on social, you can find us on Instagram where 1160 00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,240 Speaker 1: we're Conspiracy Stuff Show and Ben you are on there 1161 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 1: as well. That's true. You can see me get kicked 1162 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,760 Speaker 1: in and out of various countries, organizations and restricted areas 1163 00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,640 Speaker 1: at Ben Bolan and Secret Society's no comment, okay, And 1164 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: you can find me just you know, paling around with 1165 00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: my kid or doing a little travel or cooking some 1166 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,520 Speaker 1: delicious foods over at how now Noel Brown and hey, 1167 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 1: that's that's enough about our show. How can people learn 1168 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:14,400 Speaker 1: about Monster Presents Insomniac Scott. Well, they can go to 1169 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 1: Insomniac podcast dot com and that's probably the best place, really, 1170 00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 1: But you can also get an Apple podcast or the 1171 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:24,120 Speaker 1: I heart Radio app. And if none of those methods 1172 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,760 Speaker 1: of communication are really really hitting the spot for you, 1173 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,640 Speaker 1: we have good news. There is one way that you 1174 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 1: can always contact us. You can send us a good 1175 00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,040 Speaker 1: old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. 1176 00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 1177 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,600 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radios. How stuff Works. For more podcasts from 1178 00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,680 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1179 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.