Speaker 1: Happy New Year, everybody, Joel, I should say Happy New
Speaker 1: Year to you first, sitting here right in front of me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why you gotta tell everyone else first?
Speaker 1: I will say this is our last best episode for
Speaker 1: this holiday season. But with it being the new Year,
Speaker 1: we figured there. I don't know, there might be some
Speaker 1: folks who were taking the day off. We certainly are
Speaker 1: taking New Years off, but that doesn't mean we wanted
Speaker 1: to leave you hanging without how to money episodes.
Speaker 2: Well, in this one, it felt like the right one
Speaker 2: to play at this point time because a lot of
Speaker 2: people but budgeting is a four letter word to some folks.
Speaker 2: Well folks, some folks hate budgeting or they've been inapropriately
Speaker 2: taught about budgeting. They should give it a shot. The
Speaker 2: way it's been talked about has been like, uh, frustrating.
Speaker 1: I'll think about the way we talked about it most
Speaker 1: recently on Monday's Financial festiv Us. Think about all the
Speaker 1: folks who were able to make significant changes to the
Speaker 1: personal finances because they said, and this this is ingrained
Speaker 1: in my mind and I don't know why, but multiple
Speaker 1: folks said that they religiously track their spending and.
Speaker 2: The amount of money they were able to find in
Speaker 2: their lives because of it significant thirty thousand dollars the
Speaker 2: fact that they were able to, oh my gosh, buy
Speaker 2: a home for the first time.
Speaker 1: These are the kind of money moves that we want
Speaker 1: to see people making in this coming year. And like
Speaker 1: you said, though there are a lot of there is
Speaker 1: a lot of pushback when it comes to budgeting, Just
Speaker 1: give it a shot. Like the upside is it could
Speaker 1: be massive, right, like it's yeah, and the downside okay,
Speaker 1: maybe you waste a little bit of times.
Speaker 2: And if anyone can convince you to budget, I think
Speaker 2: it's Jesse in this episode, Like Jessa is Jesse Meachum
Speaker 2: started the business because he was so in love with budgeting.
Speaker 2: Why nab you need a budget? He's got an infectious
Speaker 2: way of talking about budgeting that hopefully can help it
Speaker 2: sink in past your brain to your heart.
Speaker 1: It makes me think about like scheduling a date night
Speaker 1: with your signific with your significant other. What's the worst
Speaker 1: that could happen? Okay, maybe you waste a little bit
Speaker 1: of time.
Speaker 2: But the upside, oh my gosh, like you've just mean,
Speaker 2: like your dates are a wasted time sometimes.
Speaker 1: No, not mine, But like if somebody else is out
Speaker 1: there and they're thinking, I don't want to we don't
Speaker 1: do date nights. That's not that's not how we roll.
Speaker 1: I think the potential, like the potential growth within. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to give like relationship advice here, I wish
Speaker 1: you would, but there's a massive potential for what could happen, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it feels like it's only up into the right and
Speaker 1: the downsides are pretty minimal.
Speaker 2: So that's how we think about budgeting, like, just give
Speaker 2: it a shot. Why not?
Speaker 1: The worst thing that could happen is that you just
Speaker 1: realize maybe okay, Yeah, in fact, I don't really like enjoying.
Speaker 1: I don't enjoy doing this, But the potential for you
Speaker 1: to start saving so much more money, I think.
Speaker 2: Could be huge. Yeah. So I think if your history
Speaker 2: with budgeting is not good, like either you couldn't stick
Speaker 2: with it or you have a bad taste in your mouth,
Speaker 2: this is the episode for you, I think to It's
Speaker 2: like a cleansing mint after eating a lot of gar
Speaker 2: like or something. So yeah, check this episode out. We
Speaker 2: hope you like it, and we hope it helps you
Speaker 2: as we enter twenty twenty five to make budgeting a
Speaker 2: part of your life so that you can crush your
Speaker 2: finances this year.
Speaker 1: And we'll see you back here in a couple of
Speaker 1: days with the fresh Friday flight.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Hat to Money. I'm Joel on Matt. Today
Speaker 2: we're talking budgeting like a Beast with Jesse Meekham. That's right,
Speaker 2: Jesse Meekham. He is joining us on the podcast today
Speaker 2: and we are going all in on budgeting.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing there's a number of folks listening who might
Speaker 1: recognize his name, but I'm guessing even more folks are
Speaker 1: familiar with the company he started back in two thousand
Speaker 1: and three while he was still in college. You need
Speaker 1: a budget, or why NAB as it's commonly known what
Speaker 1: we call it. Millions of individuals have now used why
Speaker 1: NAB to get on a budget, which has allowed them
Speaker 1: to achieve their life changing financial goals. And so whether
Speaker 1: that's simply paying off debt or the complicated endeavor of
Speaker 1: getting on the same page as your partner, that's difficult.
Speaker 1: Jesse has likely thought more about budgeting over the past
Speaker 1: twenty years than anyone else out there, so we're excited
Speaker 1: to talk with him about all the things that he's
Speaker 1: learned and observed Jesse, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 3: I am so glad to be here.
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, Jesse, We're glad to have you. And the
Speaker 2: first question we ask everyone who comes on the show
Speaker 2: is what's your what do you like to sporte on?
Speaker 2: We call it your craft beer equivalent because Matt and
Speaker 2: I we spend more money than most people would think
Speaker 2: is normal on craft beer because we love it. But
Speaker 2: we're happy to do that because we're saving and investing
Speaker 2: well for the future while we're spending a lot of
Speaker 2: money on beer. So what do you what do you
Speaker 2: spend a lot of money on that maybe people might
Speaker 2: think is kind of crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't mix beer and what I spend a lot
Speaker 3: of money on, but I would say my wood shop
Speaker 3: is a It is a money pit and there's always
Speaker 3: another thing you can buy. I'm currently in the shop
Speaker 3: for a floor or in the market for it like
Speaker 3: a floor standing variable speed drill press.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what are you making in this wood shop?
Speaker 2: Are you making like canoes? Ron Swanson style? What are
Speaker 2: you doing?
Speaker 3: If I had these skills of Ron Swanson, I would
Speaker 3: have a rived. But I he's in real life. He
Speaker 3: is a killer woodworker.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, yeah, I mean making beautiful handcrafted canoes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's insane. So yeah. Anyway, I have his book
Speaker 3: here actually called Good Clean Fun by Nick Offerman. It's
Speaker 3: it's excellent, but the yeah, I will make anything. But
Speaker 3: right now I'm working on shop furniture like I'm because
Speaker 3: you can kind of learn like it's if it's if
Speaker 3: it looks bad, it doesn't matter because it's all in
Speaker 3: your shop. So I'm learning a lot of the basics.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm taking like a general like basic woodworking course
Speaker 3: where they go through all the different joinery, kind of
Speaker 3: the foundational joinery. And I love just being a novice.
Speaker 3: So I I have a shop that looks like I'm
Speaker 3: a professional, and I am a novice, and I'm not
Speaker 3: ashamed to admit it. I just I think it's fun
Speaker 3: to get the new tools. So whenever I can squeeze
Speaker 3: it into the old plan, I do it very nice.
Speaker 1: So are you pursuing this purely out of just with it,
Speaker 1: you know, with it being a passion as you know,
Speaker 1: as oh yeah, an interest, not something that you foresee
Speaker 1: being able to sell.
Speaker 3: You know, fine, I would have ruined it. I don't
Speaker 3: want to ruin my hobby about monetizing.
Speaker 2: He's gonna open up like a woodside stands. People are
Speaker 2: gonna be like, I'm not paying for that.
Speaker 1: It was Jesse might get so good that folks are saying,
Speaker 1: please let me buy that that beautiful.
Speaker 3: I will give. I will gift it to them. I will,
Speaker 3: but I refuse to transact in this way. I don't
Speaker 3: want to taint it.
Speaker 2: Don't take, don't ruin it. Jesse, I love it.
Speaker 1: Well, let's kind of start talking about money, not just
Speaker 1: the wood, but so unlike most folks, it sounds like
Speaker 1: your parents actually had like a positive influence on you
Speaker 1: when it comes to getting you started down the path
Speaker 1: of personal finance. How is it that you first started
Speaker 1: learning about money?
Speaker 3: So, I, uh, my parents modeled it well. They modeled
Speaker 3: frugality well, I will say they were really good at
Speaker 3: just saying we don't have money for that, we're not
Speaker 3: gonna spend money on it. We we lived, I mean
Speaker 3: we were you know, middle class, but we lived below
Speaker 3: our means as far as I could gather as a
Speaker 3: as a kid and kind of observed. So they were
Speaker 3: just very, very frugal. I used to think that the
Speaker 3: word vacation meant driving ten hours to Grandma's house. I
Speaker 3: didn't know that there were other options besides just driving
Speaker 3: up there. And then literally one time, starting to read
Speaker 3: the encyclopedia at a I got to Abacus. I didn't
Speaker 3: make it very far, but like, I just bored on
Speaker 3: my vacation, so that, I mean, that's just what we did.
Speaker 3: And I didn't know any different, and it was great
Speaker 3: and they were loving, and so you can't complain at all.
Speaker 3: But one thing that my dad in particular did, I
Speaker 3: think I was fourteen, and he said, hey, you should
Speaker 3: read these books. And so he didn't just say I
Speaker 3: want to teach you about money. He was just like,
Speaker 3: you might find these interesting. And he gave me a couple.
Speaker 3: He gave me Ramsey's book that was Financial Piece, and
Speaker 3: I think now the Total Money Makeover is kind of
Speaker 3: their his more flagship book, but Financial Piece was the
Speaker 3: one that I read, and Ramsey taught me not to
Speaker 3: like debt at all, to hate debt even as a
Speaker 3: fourteen year old, and I thought, okay, that sounds good.
Speaker 3: And then he gave me The Millionaire next Door, another
Speaker 3: great one to kind of learn like it's not about
Speaker 3: what you see, but it's about what's kind of under
Speaker 3: the covers a lot of the time. And then the
Speaker 3: final one was The Richest Man in Babylon, which is
Speaker 3: probably my favorite overall, just those principles approachable. It's the
Speaker 3: same first one I would give, you know, I give
Speaker 3: my kids when they are like, hey, I want to
Speaker 3: learn something. I don't want to sit down and teach them.
Speaker 3: I just want to say, well, here's a book. And
Speaker 3: I think as a kid it's easier to learn sometimes
Speaker 3: from someone else, and so I think it was wise
Speaker 3: of my dad just to say, well, hey, learn it
Speaker 3: from these you know, from these books, And it formed
Speaker 3: a lot of my early opinions. Some of them have
Speaker 3: developed over the years a little differently, but it was
Speaker 3: early informative. And I am forever grateful that I had
Speaker 3: a disdain for debt early on and avoided it in
Speaker 3: college because of that, and that I saw early on
Speaker 3: that I should start with start with investing, and get
Speaker 3: an early jump on it. So yeah, I will be
Speaker 3: forever grateful for the to the authors of those books
Speaker 3: and to my dad for giving them to me.
Speaker 2: Well, you talk about modeling your parents, modeling the right behaviors,
Speaker 2: but then not being the ones to necessarily preach it
Speaker 2: at you, you know, over and over. And I think
Speaker 2: that's really important because I think modeling goes the farthest.
Speaker 2: Then let someone else do the preaching and maybe that's
Speaker 2: the best combo. And it's interesting you mentioned your kids too.
Speaker 2: You've got seven kids, which is as much as Matt
Speaker 2: and I have kids, and we got to catch up.
Speaker 3: I mean, you need a spreadsheet to run that many kids,
Speaker 3: right right, you guys would be fine, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's easier for us. I've got family five, he's
Speaker 2: got a family six. But you got it, you got
Speaker 2: a massive family. So how does that How has that
Speaker 2: impacted your Did that like make you feel like you
Speaker 2: needed a budget? Obviously you started your journey even before that.
Speaker 2: But have you found it to come in even more handy?
Speaker 2: Have you? I've been big of a family.
Speaker 3: Well, honestly, the first the thing that made me and
Speaker 3: my wife's name is Julie, that that made us feel
Speaker 3: like we had to really be careful early on was
Speaker 3: we were we were dirt poor, and we were both
Speaker 3: in school and just eching by, and then we were
Speaker 3: going to get married, and so combining these meager finances
Speaker 3: together it doesn't do any there's no synergy there. You're
Speaker 3: just like, okay, now we both make I mean, there
Speaker 3: was just no win and we were actually paying more
Speaker 3: in rent than we would have been as single kids anyway.
Speaker 3: So I'm just like, man, Julie, we got to be
Speaker 3: really careful. So we get married. I build this little
Speaker 3: spreadsheet that later became wine app but at the time
Speaker 3: it was just for me and for Julie and we
Speaker 3: start watching everything really close. But the thing that pushed
Speaker 3: me to say, hey, maybe I could sell this spreadsheet
Speaker 3: was it had worked for us for that year. We
Speaker 3: were able to start saving money, and then we saw
Speaker 3: that a baby was coming and it was planned, but
Speaker 3: we were still not making a lot of money, like
Speaker 3: ten bucks, you know, eleven bucks an hour and trying
Speaker 3: to get through school and so to have a baby inbound,
Speaker 3: that was what made us think, Okay, we got to
Speaker 3: try and figure out some way to let Julie exit
Speaker 3: the workforce and have me be able to try and
Speaker 3: balance maybe earning some side money and finishing up school.
Speaker 3: So the push of providing for kids, oh, that was
Speaker 3: what gave us that that drive, and so I'm grateful
Speaker 3: for it. It's not fun in the moment, but it
Speaker 3: does kind of squeeze the creativity out of you at times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kicking the pants.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing like in another human being being dependent on
Speaker 1: your ability to manage your own finances in order to
Speaker 1: provide for them. So that certainly can be that, like
Speaker 1: you said, you'll kick in the pants. But like, what
Speaker 1: would you say, Jesse, to folks who or otherwise than
Speaker 1: just repulse by the idea of making a budget. Essentially,
Speaker 1: I would love for you to maybe make a case
Speaker 1: for budgets for those out there who don't necessarily feel
Speaker 1: like it's something they need to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I don't even like the word budget.
Speaker 3: I wish that our company was named something really I
Speaker 3: don't know, fancy, like that sounds like a perfume. Maybe
Speaker 3: I don't know, something different. Because people they hear the
Speaker 3: word budget and they think restriction, no more fun diet.
Speaker 3: It's just like everything's just going to kind of bear
Speaker 3: down on them, and maybe their their spouse or significant
Speaker 3: other tells them, hey, we need a budget, and then
Speaker 3: it's like double worse. It's like, Okay, not only will
Speaker 3: we a budget, but you're going to be running the
Speaker 3: budget and I'm going to be the one that's making
Speaker 3: all the mistakes and just nothing is good about it.
Speaker 3: So a budget is really it's just a plan, and
Speaker 3: all we really care about is that people are intentional
Speaker 3: with their money and that's it. That's the end of it.
Speaker 3: We want people to love how they spend their money
Speaker 3: instead of having their spending just stress them out, strain
Speaker 3: their relationship, suck the fun out of everything. I mean,
Speaker 3: people are so worried about a budget taking the fun
Speaker 3: out of life, but they will go on vacation with
Speaker 3: this like this low burn like kind of simmer in
Speaker 3: the back of their mind. As they're racking up credit
Speaker 3: card debt. They're just like, I know this isn't good.
Speaker 3: I know this isn't good. And so I'm trying to say, well,
Speaker 3: maybe try the thing where you save up for the
Speaker 3: vacation and you actually get to spend money guilt free.
Speaker 3: So a budget's just a plan, and it's your plan
Speaker 3: and you get to make it however you want. But
Speaker 3: if it means that if you have to do a
Speaker 3: budget in order to have a pile of intention kind
Speaker 3: of like rising up behind your money, then that's that's
Speaker 3: what we want. And that's what we're gonna call it.
Speaker 3: We are you got. You gotta love how you spend
Speaker 3: your money. If you feel guilty about it, there's a problem. Right,
Speaker 3: If you're arguing with your spouse, it means there's a problem.
Speaker 3: And so we want to get that spending lined up
Speaker 3: with your real priorities. And then man, you're off to
Speaker 3: the races. That that's when money becomes fun. And I
Speaker 3: don't know, I can't imagine any other way.
Speaker 2: So do we just rename you need a budget to
Speaker 2: you need a money plan, wine amp.
Speaker 3: Something like that, or or the can thing I could like,
Speaker 3: you know, mystique or something I don't know.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well, yeah, you let me know when
Speaker 2: you're ready for that rebrand. I'm curious to hear how
Speaker 2: how it takes out cool water. I think when you're
Speaker 2: in middle school a car. Maybe that was a good one.
Speaker 2: Uh well, Jesse, some folks in the financial independence community,
Speaker 2: they're just super naturally frugal, right, and so they would say,
Speaker 2: I am intentional with my money, but I don't feel
Speaker 2: like I need the budget part. And so based on
Speaker 2: what you just said, I wait, what would you say
Speaker 2: to someone like that who says like I'm handling things
Speaker 2: pretty well. I've got a huge gap between incoming and
Speaker 2: outgoing investing a lot for the future. Like, do I
Speaker 2: need to sit down and actually like mess with the
Speaker 2: numbers every single month or every other week?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, No, they don't. If if they're if
Speaker 3: you're have some massive gap between you know, money in
Speaker 3: and money out, and the net worth keeps climbing even
Speaker 3: if the market's doing what it's been doing, especially, then
Speaker 3: you're good to go. You have a plan and the
Speaker 3: plan is working because the score that we're keeping is
Speaker 3: net worth, and especially I would say the score is
Speaker 3: how much you are sending to your investment pile. Not
Speaker 3: so much fluctuations in the market, you can't totally control that,
Speaker 3: but the fact that you're you're you know, you got
Speaker 3: a big shovel and you're flinging tons of money over
Speaker 3: the wall into that retirement bucket you're winning. So I
Speaker 3: wouldn't change a thing now for someone that's like, hey, Jesse,
Speaker 3: my net worth it's you know, I'm not really saving
Speaker 3: a ton, but I know that I'm frugal, then I'd
Speaker 3: be like, oh no, they or they like I already
Speaker 3: know the much. Yeah, they're like, I already know how
Speaker 3: much I spend. I'm like no, or I I know that,
Speaker 3: I just I EQ anyway, so I already am tight.
Speaker 3: I don't need to look. That's all just ways of
Speaker 3: saying like I don't really want to be aware, or
Speaker 3: I'm actually unaware, or I think I'm aware and I'm not.
Speaker 3: All those things we want to make sure we iron out.
Speaker 3: So but for the person that like literally their money
Speaker 3: just keeps growing and growing, yeah, you hit it, you're
Speaker 3: doing it. You just don't. You aren't super granular in
Speaker 3: your plan for your spending, but you're you're nailing it
Speaker 3: on those big big movers, you know, those big goals.
Speaker 3: Then yeah, you're good to go. I wouldn't have you
Speaker 3: change a thing.
Speaker 2: I don't want to say those people are unicorns, but
Speaker 2: they're not.
Speaker 3: As it's just I'm not worried my market's going to
Speaker 3: disappear by just you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's maybe one percent of the population that
Speaker 2: really is is in that realm of managing their finances.
Speaker 2: But I do think it's important to mention that that
Speaker 2: some of those folks is exist and they might not
Speaker 2: need a budget in the same way that most.
Speaker 3: Now, if I could interject one more thing, someone that's
Speaker 3: you know, Elon Bezos, these massively wealthy people, they still,
Speaker 3: hopefully with all of this resources, hopefully are being extremely
Speaker 3: intentional with all of that value that's there. So when
Speaker 3: you have someone that's like I make tons Jesse, I
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about it. I would kind of
Speaker 3: turn around and say, listen, man, you you have been
Speaker 3: gifted this, You've worked for it, however you want to say,
Speaker 3: this came into your possession. You have something tremendously valuable
Speaker 3: in this world. Let's not be so cavalier and so
Speaker 3: flippant about the fact that you have this massively useful
Speaker 3: resources that could potentially be, you know, deployed to have
Speaker 3: some great effect in the world. And I'm not even meaning, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, shame on you for not giving it away.
Speaker 3: There are plenty of charities that I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 3: that probably wasn't a great use of money, if you know, Like,
Speaker 3: I'm no judge of that, but just let's take you
Speaker 3: and make sure that all of your intention, all of
Speaker 3: the best parts of you are channeled behind that big
Speaker 3: pile of money, and that it becomes something great and grand.
Speaker 3: Let's not have it just be frittered away. So for
Speaker 3: those that have a fantastic pile of resources, I think
Speaker 3: it's incumbent upon them even more so to be really intentional,
Speaker 3: really thoughtful, careful about what they do with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that looks like a budget, but like you said,
Speaker 1: it's having a plan. And I think even those folks
Speaker 1: would be able to benefit from a plan because you
Speaker 1: take a high reformer and you put them under the
Speaker 1: direction of an amazing coach, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: they're doing stuff that they never thought was possible. Right,
Speaker 1: if making millions came easy to them, we'll just think
Speaker 1: what you.
Speaker 2: Could do otherwise.
Speaker 1: But I like what you said too, Like, at least
Speaker 1: from an investing standpoint, they're kind of knocking it out
Speaker 1: of the park. But I mean, one of the reasons that,
Speaker 1: or one of the ways I guess my wife and
Speaker 1: I were able to Kate and I that we were
Speaker 1: able to get on the same page just when it
Speaker 1: came to budgeting, is because we saw it as a
Speaker 1: way essentially, as a way for us to have some
Speaker 1: freedom and how it is that we spend our money.
Speaker 1: Because I think, I mean, my natural tendency might be
Speaker 1: to not just be frugal, but just to seriously deprive ourselves.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, exactly, we saw an ability for us to,
Speaker 1: like you said, be intentional with our money, but just
Speaker 1: we had the freedom to then spend our money in
Speaker 1: the ways that we said we wanted to. But maybe
Speaker 1: in practice we found that to be harder. Yeah, moving
Speaker 1: it from like the head and what we said we're
Speaker 1: going to do on paper into reality for us was difficult.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, It's it's liberating to have the plan allow
Speaker 3: you to do things. It's weird because you set up
Speaker 3: the plan, you agreed to it, you wrote it down
Speaker 3: a week before or whatever. It's weird that we suddenly
Speaker 3: divorce ourselves from the plan as if it's not us,
Speaker 3: but it is. But it allows us to kind of push,
Speaker 3: like defer back to it and say, well, what did
Speaker 3: the plan say I could do, Oh, the big plans
Speaker 3: so I could buy these fantastically expensive boots that will
Speaker 3: last forever. And I say that because it's a real
Speaker 3: example that I'm in the market for. So splurtis again.
Speaker 3: But you know, it's like, oh, okay, this will be
Speaker 3: really cool. I'm really excited about this. But push came
Speaker 3: to shove. If the plan weren't telling me that I
Speaker 3: actually could do it, I think I would struggle with
Speaker 3: it because I'm just now actually wired to squeeze, you know,
Speaker 3: squeeze those dollars. So I love that it gives you
Speaker 3: the permission, like you give yourself the permission, but in
Speaker 3: this indirect way that allows it to fill a little
Speaker 3: more free flowing.
Speaker 2: Yep. Again, I don't know what percentage of the population
Speaker 2: those natural, ridiculously frugal people are. I think Matt and
Speaker 2: I might both be those, and actually making a plan
Speaker 2: for our money has helped us feel free to spend
Speaker 2: in the ways that we otherwise would probably not do.
Speaker 2: And it's really it's helped my marriage out because then
Speaker 2: I'm not like saying no to everything, even though those
Speaker 2: are things we want to do. But I guess, Jesse,
Speaker 2: I want to I want to know more too about
Speaker 2: winnab And you talked about kind of how it started
Speaker 2: with a spreadsheet that you created just to be able
Speaker 2: to get by making very little money and to help
Speaker 2: your wife stay at home. But how did it turn
Speaker 2: into a fintech company and a wildly successful one. I mean,
Speaker 2: I saw at the end of last year, the Wall
Speaker 2: Street Journal said why NAB was the best budgeting gap?
Speaker 2: Like that's huge, Like that's massive. Yeah, So how did
Speaker 2: you get to that point?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, almost twenty years in you get the
Speaker 3: Wash Journal to write about it, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: So that a decade ago, guys, Yeah, like that would
Speaker 3: have helped a lot. But I've always loved the topic.
Speaker 3: I've always loved teaching people about it, and I am
Speaker 3: a teacher at heart, and so we've always had the model. Now,
Speaker 3: the software, the spreadsheet's been long gone as of like
Speaker 3: I think six or something, But then we had some
Speaker 3: really you know, some great software that you would download
Speaker 3: and install and paste a license key for people that
Speaker 3: grew up without apps and whatnot. But then the apps
Speaker 3: came along, and now the WebApp, and so it just keeps.
Speaker 3: The software keeps kind of hopefully keeping pace with what
Speaker 3: technology is allowing us to do. But the method behind
Speaker 3: it has has always been kind of like the special juice,
Speaker 3: the thing that makes it work. So we always say
Speaker 3: that the software is second fiddle to the method, to
Speaker 3: the thinking. And if someone can take what we teach
Speaker 3: method wise, these four rules, and I'm sure we'll get
Speaker 3: into later. But if they can take that and run
Speaker 3: with it, no matter how they implement it, it'll work really,
Speaker 3: really well because the method works very very.
Speaker 1: Well, even though the technology has changed. There are four
Speaker 1: rules in particular that you wrote down a long time ago.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna talk about those rules. We're gonna talk
Speaker 2: about them in stone tablets.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, we're gonna talk about maybe some just some
Speaker 1: general budgeting strategy as well.
Speaker 2: We'll get to all of that right after this break.
Speaker 2: All right, let's keep rolling. Let's talk about budgeting like
Speaker 2: a beast. We're still talking with Jesse Meekham. And if
Speaker 2: there's Matt anybody to cover this topic well with us,
Speaker 2: it is Jesse.
Speaker 1: It's the guy that's a woodworker who's saving up for
Speaker 1: some nice leather boots to wear in his woodshot Exactly.
Speaker 2: I don't want to you don't want to puncture those
Speaker 2: toes if like some mistake app is or anything like that.
Speaker 2: But Jesse, you talked about the four rules. You alluded
Speaker 2: to them before the break, but that's where everything starts.
Speaker 2: I when it comes to the wine app software, can
Speaker 2: you give us an overview of those four rules and
Speaker 2: why you think that that's kind of the revolutionary. Like
Speaker 2: Matt said, secret sauce to making budgeting work for people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I had mentioned earlier that we want
Speaker 3: people to love how they spend their money, and spending
Speaker 3: is just decision making at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: and people try and dress it up and make it
Speaker 3: some other thing. That money is different, but it is
Speaker 3: just decisions. And the method that teaches is for rules
Speaker 3: that's essentially just to help you make better decisions. So
Speaker 3: our first rule we call it giving every dollar a job.
Speaker 3: And what that means is if you decide to spend
Speaker 3: money on tool A, you can't spend money on tool B.
Speaker 3: If you decide to go out for sushi, you maybe
Speaker 3: can't also go out for you know, drinks another day.
Speaker 3: It's that if I spend here, I maybe can't spend
Speaker 3: over there. And it's the it's acknowledging that we have
Speaker 3: finite resources. And while while finance capital f large industry
Speaker 3: wants you to feel like you have infinite resources and
Speaker 3: you can spend and swipe and buy out, pay later
Speaker 3: and all that stuff that they want you to feel
Speaker 3: like you never run out, but you have to ignore
Speaker 3: knowledge that you run out because that helps you crystallize
Speaker 3: what your priorities are and start to make better decisions.
Speaker 3: So when you operate with a zero based budget, whether
Speaker 3: it's with wine app or any number of other tools
Speaker 3: that do that, it's that idea of it's finite. So
Speaker 3: with that in place, you're now weighing your priorities and
Speaker 3: good decisions come from that. We then move to rule two,
Speaker 3: where we call it embracing your true expenses, and essentially
Speaker 3: that's looking ahead and thinking about larger, less frequent expenses
Speaker 3: and then dividing those up into more manageable monthly amounts.
Speaker 3: So I mentioned sushi. It's kind of like me saying,
Speaker 3: all right, I want to go to sushi today, but
Speaker 3: also I'm looking at Christmas that just happened, and I'm saying, oh, well,
Speaker 3: Christmas is in twelve months or whatever. Is this going
Speaker 3: to work? Is Christmas and sushi today going to work?
Speaker 3: And people don't make they don't do that kind of calculus.
Speaker 3: Or it's a lot like if you're standing, like I
Speaker 3: don't know, in the tire store or something, and your
Speaker 3: tire just blue, and the guy's there and he's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: the four tires are going to be let's pray that
Speaker 3: they're only like eight hundred bucks. Right, The four tires
Speaker 3: are going to be eight hundred dollars and you have
Speaker 3: the money for the four tires. So you're like, man,
Speaker 3: I'm feeling good. But it's like a pizza delivery guy
Speaker 3: walks into and he's just like, Jesse, I know those
Speaker 3: tires are eight hundred, and you have the eight hundred,
Speaker 3: but don't you want to spend one hundred bucks on
Speaker 3: pizza for your kids and their friends and maybe their
Speaker 3: friends and just have some. And you're like, no, I
Speaker 3: absolutely do not want to do that, not because of
Speaker 3: all the kids in the house, but because I want
Speaker 3: to pay for the tires. And so it's this interesting
Speaker 3: situation where with rule one, we're prioritizing, and with rule two,
Speaker 3: we're prioritizing with future priorities and current priorities, and they're
Speaker 3: getting equal footing during our decision making process. So, Faye,
Speaker 3: my youngest daughter, I have to refer to my spreadsheet
Speaker 3: to make sure I get that straight. But you know, Fay,
Speaker 3: my youngest she's like, Okay, I want to save up
Speaker 3: for this Christmas gift for fee, and I also want
Speaker 3: to buy this thing, right, now and suddenly you have
Speaker 3: a really interesting prioritization that's happening. Now do I sit there?
Speaker 3: I'm always like, oh am, I going to take a
Speaker 3: gift from face Christmas? No, of course not. But as
Speaker 3: you're doing the decisions, you are. And so this idea
Speaker 3: of future you and current you, and then future Julie
Speaker 3: and current Julie, we're all sitting at the table, you know,
Speaker 3: table together negotiating and there's one that's like I want
Speaker 3: money for tires, and other ones like I want pizza tonight,
Speaker 3: and we're weighing that. So between rule one and rule two,
Speaker 3: decision making starts to really improve. I'll pause there just
Speaker 3: in case you guys have questions. But I'm like an automaton.
Speaker 3: If you put a quarter in me or ask me
Speaker 3: about the four rules, I just kind of go.
Speaker 1: So I get, yeah, let's ahead and jump in here
Speaker 1: before you move on with the additional rules. Because you know,
Speaker 1: when you talk about giving every dollar a job, like,
Speaker 1: it makes me think about just budgeting in general. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: if we ask you to define the word budget, I'm
Speaker 1: curious to hear what you'd say, because you know, you
Speaker 1: did say a plan earlier. But it's like, at the
Speaker 1: heart of budgeting is the first rule, giving every dollar
Speaker 1: a job where you are just being intentional when it
Speaker 1: comes to like you said, the decisions that you're making,
Speaker 1: is does that seem accurate?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I would say if I were to
Speaker 3: define I've never done this before, perhaps, but if I
Speaker 3: were to define it off the cuff, a budget is
Speaker 3: a plan attached to finite resources.
Speaker 1: That's it given a specific timeframe as well, you know,
Speaker 1: when it comes to embracing this true expenses, because I
Speaker 1: think a big part of those those true expenses is
Speaker 1: the fact that I think there's so much in our
Speaker 1: life that feels urgent, that seems urgent, and so oftentimes
Speaker 1: we're just looking to whatever pops up in front of
Speaker 1: us and we think, oh, okay, that is now something
Speaker 1: I have to tackle, that's something we have to spend
Speaker 1: money on. And it's just about it's almost about getting
Speaker 1: in front of that a little bit and knowing that
Speaker 1: it's on its way, as opposed to you just reacting
Speaker 1: to something passively. It's proactively managing those expectations absolutely knowing
Speaker 1: they're going to come down the pike.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, it is. It is completely and totally proactive.
Speaker 3: You know, if you manage your day the way you
Speaker 3: manage your money, I'm speaking to the eighty percent that
Speaker 3: don't do it well, you'd be a wreck. You know,
Speaker 3: you're a train wreck. You we're just reacting to everything
Speaker 3: that comes along, and at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: you're always like, well, geez, I didn't get the important
Speaker 3: thing done. That happens with people's money all the time.
Speaker 3: They're just like we manage time. We're just trying to
Speaker 3: manage another finite resource that also can essentially travel through time,
Speaker 3: and we're looking at how our future will look, how
Speaker 3: our you know, the current environment looks, and we're trying
Speaker 3: to weigh that together. It's interesting to do it this
Speaker 3: way because what we want people to get in there
Speaker 3: kind of in practice is not that budgeting is where
Speaker 3: you're forecasting your income. You're saying I will earn this,
Speaker 3: I will earn this. We tie it back to the
Speaker 3: finiteness of their money, and we say, how much is
Speaker 3: in your checking account right now? Okay, what do you
Speaker 3: want that money to do before you're paid again? And
Speaker 3: that question whether you're making one hundred grand a year,
Speaker 3: three hundred grand, fifty grand, doesn't matter that question starts
Speaker 3: to push on the priorities and starts to force the decisions.
Speaker 3: So then you can say, well, okay, I've got all
Speaker 3: these current needs, but then we get future you to
Speaker 3: come to the table. Also, it's like, well, you know,
Speaker 3: what about in three months when you wanted to go
Speaker 3: on vacation, you know, do you want to throw some
Speaker 3: money there. So it's more about allocating not just for now,
Speaker 3: but also almost like you're allocating to these different jobs
Speaker 3: along a timeline, and in that way you can be
Speaker 3: really ready for the future. It's funny too, because people
Speaker 3: mentioned when they've started using wine up for they've used
Speaker 3: it for a while, they stop needing the traditional kind
Speaker 3: of personal finance emergency fund because they're finding that they
Speaker 3: are having fewer emergencies. Because the car tires that wear out,
Speaker 3: that is an emergency only if you don't have the money.
Speaker 3: But if you do have the money, it's no emergency
Speaker 3: at all. Or if the HVAC goes out or property
Speaker 3: taxes are due, it's whenever we have the money. We
Speaker 3: never label it an emergency. We're just like, well, now
Speaker 3: if physical harm is you know, if there's a fire, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: that it's an emergency physical harm, but when the financial
Speaker 3: ramification can be handled by cash on hand, we're pretty
Speaker 3: resident red and say like, oh, yeah, that was an emergency.
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, it really wasn't you know?
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 3: You had the money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're planning ahead for some of those known
Speaker 2: irregular expenses too, like car tires, right, that's I don't know,
Speaker 2: every fifty sixty thousand miles you're going to need new tires,
Speaker 2: and so that's something you can kind of start to
Speaker 2: plan ahead for. Or a new roof. You know, the
Speaker 2: timeline of a roof is twenty five years, but you
Speaker 2: can see if your roof is starting to get decrepit.
Speaker 2: It's not typically this massive unknown I needed a full
Speaker 2: roof replacement and I had no idea what was coming.
Speaker 2: And some of those things we like to categorize as
Speaker 2: an emergency, but it's usually just a lack of preparation,
Speaker 2: a lack of planning, and Okay, but I want to
Speaker 2: know too. Like one of the things that we get
Speaker 2: questions on a lot, and we try to answer the
Speaker 2: best we can is for folks who are paid irregularly, right,
Speaker 2: folks who work for themselves, they run their own business,
Speaker 2: or they're a contractor, like, how should they think about
Speaker 2: budgeting when they're not sure how much money is coming
Speaker 2: in month to month, whereas the person who gets paid
Speaker 2: every two weeks, it's so much easier to know exactly
Speaker 2: how much you're going to have on hand.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so never ever, ever budget with money that you
Speaker 3: don't have on hand. Never forecast. Now, if you want
Speaker 3: to dream and kind of plan big and start to say, like, oh,
Speaker 3: what would it be like if I landed these three
Speaker 3: other clients and I had sold these three houses or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you want to do that kind of big picture planning
Speaker 3: and dreaming, that's cool, But when it comes to decision
Speaker 3: making about your spending, you only ever talk about money
Speaker 3: that is in the account, not that you're going to
Speaker 3: get that is there already. So for a variable income person,
Speaker 3: there's there's that rule is number one, do not plan
Speaker 3: with money that you do not have in hand. That's
Speaker 3: that's the first. The second rule is, because your income
Speaker 3: is variable, you have to build more buffer. And that's
Speaker 3: kind of jumping to rule four, but you have to
Speaker 3: essentially build more runway for yourself, just more breathing room
Speaker 3: to allow yourself to roll with the fact that it's
Speaker 3: it's not you know that it is irregular, and I
Speaker 3: I can I mean, I've been down that road for
Speaker 3: a years, you know, years and years where we had
Speaker 3: a very variable income and it just is what it is.
Speaker 3: So only ever plan with money you have and build
Speaker 3: more buffer than your friend that's paid every two weeks
Speaker 3: by the city, you know, and that's that's just your reality.
Speaker 3: But once you do that and you start looking to
Speaker 3: the future with rule two, and when there are flush months,
Speaker 3: because variable income, a lot of times people are like, oh,
Speaker 3: variable income is tricky because when I don't have any money,
Speaker 3: I have a problem. They never mentioned how they had
Speaker 3: a lot of money two weeks ago, you know, And
Speaker 3: so it is just up and down, up and down.
Speaker 3: And so when you are flush, when you are like,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, honey, we are rich, your first thought
Speaker 3: is let's celebrate. We landed the big deal. Let's celebrate.
Speaker 3: And yet cool do celebrate, but also recognize there are
Speaker 3: going to be some lean times and do a little
Speaker 3: bit of like Joseph in Egypt where it's like seven
Speaker 3: years feast and famine, and start to look ahead and say, well,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm going to fund half of our
Speaker 3: mortgage for a month from now, and then three months
Speaker 3: later you're like, I'm going to fund the rest of
Speaker 3: our mortgage for next month, and I might fund half
Speaker 3: of our mortgage for two months out. And we'll get
Speaker 3: people that are running wine app that are on very
Speaker 3: extremely variable incomes that have funded their kind of their
Speaker 3: core you know, must have fixed expenses. They've funded them three,
Speaker 3: four or five months out because they know that there
Speaker 3: can be some lean times. And I'll just add one
Speaker 3: little thing just to pitch for this. When you are
Speaker 3: operating on a variable income and you've eliminated the variability
Speaker 3: in your stress level tied to it life changing, Well.
Speaker 2: Isn't that the biggest reason to make this plan? Like
Speaker 2: is there anything better?
Speaker 1: Is?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we want people to get their money together. We
Speaker 2: want them to be confident in how they handle their money.
Speaker 2: But the biggest problem when you're not confident with how
Speaker 2: you handle your money and you are living paycheck to
Speaker 2: paycheck is the stress. The rain cloud of stress that
Speaker 2: hangs over you every single day and it's weighing you down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it makes your decision making in your business
Speaker 3: and elsewhere. It really has a negative effect on it.
Speaker 3: You start to be really you react really quickly. You
Speaker 3: take clients that you actually don't want. You don't stop
Speaker 3: jobs that you hate that are low profit, because you're
Speaker 3: just taking anything you can. And we want you to
Speaker 3: be choosy, We want you to be really selective. We
Speaker 3: want you to be making the best decision for you
Speaker 3: and your whole life. And all of that starts to
Speaker 3: kind of be hurt when we're just so stressed out
Speaker 3: and so reactive. So those two rules fix variable income.
Speaker 1: You kind of alluded to this, but we can. We'll
Speaker 1: give you a chance to get back to rules three
Speaker 1: and four. But we kind of touched on how that
Speaker 1: variable income having more cash in hand. That's rule four
Speaker 1: of the four rules, right, Like you're talking about aging
Speaker 1: your money, you're about you're talking about, like you said,
Speaker 1: only spending money that you have on hand, and in
Speaker 1: some ways, like when it comes to that variable income,
Speaker 1: you're kind of like pushing that money off.
Speaker 2: Into the future.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know it's money that you're earmarking for
Speaker 1: future purchases, like you said, must have things like a mortgage,
Speaker 1: paying for food. So we kind of covered forward. What's
Speaker 1: the third rule that you think is important for folks
Speaker 1: to keep in mind in order to have a successful budget.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and remember we're talking about really good decision making.
Speaker 3: It's just a decision making framework to make sure that
Speaker 3: spending lines up with priorities. And that's where the magic happens.
Speaker 3: So if we're giving every dollar a job, and we're
Speaker 3: also looking head to future dollars and we're giving those
Speaker 3: jobs and we're weighing our priorities. The third rule, it's
Speaker 3: interesting that we have to have it be a rule,
Speaker 3: but we call it rolling with the punches, and it's
Speaker 3: essentially saying, be flexible, change your mind if you need
Speaker 3: to as new information comes in, change the plan. You
Speaker 3: would alluded to, like a coach that can really capitalize
Speaker 3: on someone with a lot of great raw talent. And
Speaker 3: there's also the coach that has a really solid game plan.
Speaker 3: And then as soon as the ball is hiked or
Speaker 3: the tip off happens or whatever it is, as soon
Speaker 3: as that happens, the coach is making adjustments and you're
Speaker 3: seeing how your opponent is reacting to your plan, and
Speaker 3: you're reacting to that plan. And it's this big game
Speaker 3: of chess, which is another great example of reacting and
Speaker 3: acting and so we want the plan that you've set
Speaker 3: in place, this budget. We want you to be flexible.
Speaker 3: Rigid budgets break, and flexible budgets last a long long time.
Speaker 3: Too many people, first of all, they've never budgeted before,
Speaker 3: and so they think that they're just going to suddenly
Speaker 3: be this like wunder Kin, that's going to be like,
Speaker 3: oh I got this nailed, and you don't. So you
Speaker 3: want to give yourself lots of grace. And when we
Speaker 3: talk about being flexible, give yourself the flexibility to say like,
Speaker 3: oh I thought I wanted to do this with my money,
Speaker 3: but then my friend called me and they said, hey,
Speaker 3: should I you know, do you want to come out
Speaker 3: to eat? And you're like, yes, I do. So reallocate
Speaker 3: some money, shift things around, change your priorities a little bit.
Speaker 3: You're good to go. You know. It's like you're planning
Speaker 3: a beach day and then it starts to rain and
Speaker 3: you think vacations don't work. You know, we don't like no,
Speaker 3: it's just that it's raining. So you just make some
Speaker 3: adjustments and keep rolling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so quick follow up here? Would you reckon
Speaker 1: for folks to revisit their budget every single month and
Speaker 1: make small tweaks. Is this like a quarterly thing? I
Speaker 1: say this because because I recently my wife and I
Speaker 1: had our big end of the year sort of.
Speaker 2: Meeting where we look back at from it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we look back at the past year and we
Speaker 1: make some of these larger changes. But yeah, I'd be
Speaker 1: curious to hear your thoughts on making these adjustments, how
Speaker 1: often they should be and to what extent.
Speaker 3: So it depending on how much progress you are trying
Speaker 3: to make and how much room you have between how
Speaker 3: much you spend and how much you make. So if
Speaker 3: you have a lot of room in there, then you
Speaker 3: don't need to be quite as engaged. You don't need
Speaker 3: to be. It still still may serve you well. But
Speaker 3: as people are really trying to transform their finances, maybe
Speaker 3: they're trying to get out of debt, they're trying to
Speaker 3: read some financial goals, they're maybe not in the same
Speaker 3: spot you all are or your listeners are. They need
Speaker 3: to be actively in their budget. I mean a lot
Speaker 3: of people like to at least weekly sit down and say, okay,
Speaker 3: where are we at. But when someone is first starting,
Speaker 3: just be be in the budget every day. Replace Instagram
Speaker 3: with scrolling through your categories and being like this looks good.
Speaker 3: This looks good. And when you're about to spend money,
Speaker 3: you want to look at the app and say, well,
Speaker 3: can I spend the money here? And if you can
Speaker 3: spend it joyfully, no guilt, record it or the bank,
Speaker 3: maybe I'll send you the transaction we hook up with
Speaker 3: the bank or whatever. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: you want to be actively always kind of reallocating based
Speaker 3: on how the spending is shaping up. As you get
Speaker 3: more wiggle room in the budget, this becomes less necessary.
Speaker 3: But if you are trying to make real, meaningful progress
Speaker 3: with your finances, which means real behavior change, the more
Speaker 3: frequently you are in the app kind of exercising a
Speaker 3: muscle that's been dormant for a long time, the better
Speaker 3: results you'll get.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. It's like the longer you've been
Speaker 2: doing anything, the better you get at it, the less
Speaker 2: intense you have to be about focusing on it. I
Speaker 2: want to ask you too. You just mentioned scrolling on Instagram,
Speaker 2: which is a problem for a lot of people. When
Speaker 2: it comes to that could be like a budget buster
Speaker 2: in their lives. The rise of buy now, pay later,
Speaker 2: or something that we have talked about a lot on
Speaker 2: the show We hate it targeted ads to start getting
Speaker 2: ads for nice boots now right exactly, they get them,
Speaker 2: go get them exactly. It's like, sick guys, let's get
Speaker 2: them to spend some of their money on this stuff.
Speaker 2: So so it feels like everything around us is conspiring,
Speaker 2: leading us towards making worse decisions, towards money outflowing you.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like it's harder for folks to resist
Speaker 2: impulse spending these days? And do you feel like that's
Speaker 2: part of what's leading leading to like an inability for
Speaker 2: folks to budget and to to come up with a
Speaker 2: good plan for themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely is. It's uh And I don't like
Speaker 3: framing it as like you're you know, you're a victim
Speaker 3: of the the man, the system is out to get you.
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, I have to side
Speaker 3: on the on the side of take responsibility, take action.
Speaker 3: You can control your situation. You can change, because anything
Speaker 3: else would be a disservice to a person that desires change. Right,
Speaker 3: So you can change. You can do this now. Conspiring though,
Speaker 3: I love that word because I mean I'm a profit
Speaker 3: seeking business owner just like everyone else and all of
Speaker 3: these all this funantilization of everything is for profit, and
Speaker 3: you can say it's good or evil or whatever you want,
Speaker 3: but it just is. So knowing that they're kind of
Speaker 3: out to get you does help you maybe feel a
Speaker 3: little bit of motivation to be like, oh no, you
Speaker 3: don't and a little bit of like some gumption that
Speaker 3: might come on. So totally that could be helpful, but
Speaker 3: you also want to make sure that when you do
Speaker 3: want to spend the money, that you enjoy it. So
Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want people to associate
Speaker 3: spending as bad. It's not. It's just spending when it's
Speaker 3: out of alignment with what you really want. That's where
Speaker 3: we don't want to have all the misses.
Speaker 2: And again that's where the craft beer equivalent for us,
Speaker 2: that's something we talk about all the time out of here.
Speaker 2: That is something we hammer home, like find the things
Speaker 2: that do move the needle for you, because there are
Speaker 2: there's a lot of deprivation mentality in the personal finance
Speaker 2: space and we don't want to contribute to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesse, I'd love to hear your thoughts on lifestyle
Speaker 1: creep as well, because like, as.
Speaker 2: Individuals make more money, like I think it's fine.
Speaker 1: To use some of that to like give some folks
Speaker 1: more breathing room to spend to maybe not have to
Speaker 1: revisit their budget quite as often. But it can also
Speaker 1: be a slippery slope, right, And so like, how do
Speaker 1: you want people to react, say, when they get a
Speaker 1: pay raise, when they see their income go up, how
Speaker 1: would you encourage folks going back to a word that
Speaker 1: you've already said, prioritize how it is that they spend.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I had a better answer for this.
Speaker 3: It's no different like if you get double the money
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you just got a sweet raise,
Speaker 3: I mean awesome high five, Like, let's this is awesome,
Speaker 3: you know, so you just got to go back and say, okay,
Speaker 3: how much you know, what does this money need to
Speaker 3: do before I'm paid again? And now you have more money,
Speaker 3: and so you think, well, what does this this money
Speaker 3: need to do before I'm paid again. I don't like
Speaker 3: the phrase lifestyle creep. I used to use it all
Speaker 3: the time. It's one of those things I mentioned early
Speaker 3: on where it was like, oh, I know, you should
Speaker 3: just always be spending less, and lifestyle creep makes it
Speaker 3: sound like it snuck up on you. It just kind
Speaker 3: of like it sounds creepy, and that seems negative, so
Speaker 3: I don't like anything about it. I think when people
Speaker 3: are talking about lifestyle creep they're really talking about the slow,
Speaker 3: almost imperceptible misalignment of spending in priorities. And with that,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm on it, Like, yes, let's get rid
Speaker 3: of that. But if you're saying, hey, Jesse, you make
Speaker 3: I don't know how much more than when Julie and
Speaker 3: I when we first started wineapp I mean, gosh, I
Speaker 3: don't even know, guys, ten twenty thirty times more. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's in some insane amount. Are you saying that I
Speaker 3: still should be living in the same basement apartment that
Speaker 3: gave us respiratory issues the whole time?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And it's like, well, no, no, that's okay, you know,
Speaker 3: but we just don't want.
Speaker 2: Lives to draw the line. Yeah, And it's like, where is.
Speaker 3: That line drawn? Well, I'm not going to draw the
Speaker 3: line for your listeners or for you guys, and it's
Speaker 3: up to everyone to especially when you're sharing finances, you
Speaker 3: two hand in hand, you know, you grab the sharpie. Actually,
Speaker 3: it's not a sharpie. It's something erasable and you draw
Speaker 3: the line together and then you recognize that you're going
Speaker 3: to revisit it regularly every year. I promote the idea
Speaker 3: of a of a budget burned down, meaning you just
Speaker 3: you drop all assumptions. It's like, should we have health insurance?
Speaker 3: Should we not? You know, of course, get catastrophic health insurance?
Speaker 3: Should we rent or should we buy? Should we have
Speaker 3: five roommates or should we get rid of our five roommates?
Speaker 3: Should we get rid of all of our cars? I mean,
Speaker 3: just burn down every single assumption to kind of start fresh.
Speaker 3: And it's a way to make sure that this lifestyle
Speaker 3: creep or misalignment of priorities in spending hasn't happened to you.
Speaker 3: I mean it will have happened, like it happens to
Speaker 3: all of us all the time.
Speaker 2: Even allows you to rethink what you truly love and
Speaker 2: what you truly want to spend money on, right, because
Speaker 2: we get used to doing things and we continue those
Speaker 2: things in perpetuity, and we might say, wait a second,
Speaker 2: the second car doesn't matter to us anymore, but the
Speaker 2: trip to Europe does, and so I want to strip
Speaker 2: that out. And that's a big, massive change, but probably
Speaker 2: in reality the same amount of money that you're going
Speaker 2: to spend in a year. So I think that's a
Speaker 2: really really cool concept. Yeah, Jesse, I want to hear
Speaker 2: your updated thoughts on debt because you just talked about
Speaker 2: how some you talked to at the beginning about reading
Speaker 2: Dave Ramsey and how maybe that is influenced review of debt.
Speaker 2: But I wonder if that's changed. We'll get to a
Speaker 2: couple questions on that with Jesse Meekham right after this.
Speaker 2: Right we are back.
Speaker 1: We are talking about just the different ways that you
Speaker 1: can budgets, the different strategies to take, whether or not
Speaker 1: you are using a specific software or not. And Jesse,
Speaker 1: just before the rake, Joel brought up debts.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on credit card specifically,
Speaker 1: right just because I mean, you know you're massively pro budget.
Speaker 1: Does that mean you are anti credit card? What is
Speaker 1: the what's the wide ap approach to credit cards?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll start with the wine ab approach first.
Speaker 3: We are agnostic as to the spending instrument you use. Now,
Speaker 3: that means that we've done our best in the software
Speaker 3: to create a system where a credit card acts like cash,
Speaker 3: because we've talked a lot about finite resources, and a
Speaker 3: credit card lets you not acknowledge finite resources, and people
Speaker 3: can say all they want about well, I do this
Speaker 3: and I always pay it off. But at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, you are spending money and it's not
Speaker 3: money you have. Now you could say, oh no, it's
Speaker 3: in the checking account, but the cash has not left
Speaker 3: your system yet, so you just straight up that's how
Speaker 3: it is. Now. What we've done in WINEAP has tried
Speaker 3: to make it act like cash, where if you spend
Speaker 3: on the credit card, let's say hundred bucks for groceries,
Speaker 3: no cash left your system, but we take one hundred
Speaker 3: dollars from your grocery category and we move it to
Speaker 3: your credit card payment category, so that when that you
Speaker 3: know when the credit cards due or whatever. It's on
Speaker 3: auto pay, if you're doing it, well, it just the
Speaker 3: cash is there. So we've done our best to say, hey,
Speaker 3: this is this is like cash. Treat it like cash. Now.
Speaker 3: If someone's coming off of a lot of credit card problems,
Speaker 3: I say, just don't use them for a while, like, hey,
Speaker 3: they bit you already, Like let's not let's not mess
Speaker 3: with those for a while. They are more complicated than
Speaker 3: just swiping with a card and having money go out.
Speaker 2: This psychological element, absolutely.
Speaker 3: The reconciliation is more complicated. The bank transactions come in
Speaker 3: and do weird things. Sometimes a refund will hit and
Speaker 3: it hit from it hit two months before, and you'll
Speaker 3: see the refund go back, and so you'll be sitting
Speaker 3: there with your software like what happened. It makes it
Speaker 3: more complicated. That's bit me in the past. So I
Speaker 3: say that all to be like, we're trying to get
Speaker 3: the credit card to not be a credit card in
Speaker 3: our system, which is funny, which just tells you how
Speaker 3: negative they really are because we're trying to I don't
Speaker 3: know whatever. The opposite of negate is this negative thing.
Speaker 3: And that's just it's telling my personal experiment this year,
Speaker 3: and this is this is early days. But I didn't
Speaker 3: cut our credit card or whatever. I threw it in
Speaker 3: a drawer, but I moved all of our spending off
Speaker 3: of what was basically our primary spending card for Julie
Speaker 3: and I and we are using our debit cards. My theory,
Speaker 3: my theory, and I don't care about the rewards or
Speaker 3: the points like there's one way to tell. This is
Speaker 3: a little bit of a diversion. There's one way to
Speaker 3: tell if banks like the rewards or don't like the rewards,
Speaker 3: and it's that they keep pushing the rewards.
Speaker 2: So it's the fact that they exist, they.
Speaker 3: Exist, they exist, and that banks are wildly profitable institutions.
Speaker 3: So you can say, oh, Jesse, I'm not a sucker.
Speaker 3: I don't pay those rewards, but they still get paid
Speaker 3: every time you swipe. Every time you swipe, a bank
Speaker 3: get a banker gets its wings or whatever. However that
Speaker 3: goes right. So when when you swipe, you are giving
Speaker 3: the bank money because they get a cut. They get
Speaker 3: a little cut. And there are a few people that
Speaker 3: there's a processor that gets a cut, there's a gateway
Speaker 3: that gets a cut, and there's a bank that gets
Speaker 3: a cut in somebody. There's another bank that gets a cut,
Speaker 3: like the issuer, and then the holder. There's weird words
Speaker 3: for it, but like so many people have their fingers
Speaker 3: in this pie. That's these transaction fees that we all
Speaker 3: pay that the merchant pays on our behalf, that we
Speaker 3: all end up paying because the merchant's paying it. Right,
Speaker 3: if you assume that you're in a fairly competitive market,
Speaker 3: so in that instance, we are paying it. So when
Speaker 3: someone says, well I get one percent back, well, the
Speaker 3: bank got more than one percent for you swiping, so
Speaker 3: there's still totally okay with this. So that's one way
Speaker 3: to view it, is just like, oh, maybe that the
Speaker 3: banks are okay with this, not just okay, but that
Speaker 3: they love it. So that's one thing. The other thing
Speaker 3: you could do is say, well, who pays for all
Speaker 3: of these rewards? If it's not me, well, it's someone
Speaker 3: that's paying late fees and interest, And so you might
Speaker 3: approach it from an altruistic sense, which, honestly, to be
Speaker 3: totally frank, it doesn't like move me. I'm necessarily like,
Speaker 3: I'm going to do this because I don't want someone
Speaker 3: else to have to pay for my reward. It doesn't.
Speaker 3: But I know a lot of people that for whom
Speaker 3: that really is the moving factor, and they just say,
Speaker 3: you know, altruistically, I don't want someone else that's struggling
Speaker 3: to be paying my reward fees. Also an interesting view.
Speaker 3: There's a third view that I'm curious about for my
Speaker 3: year of experiment, and that is is we've always talked
Speaker 3: about how a credit card is handled in wine app
Speaker 3: as if it's a debit card, as if it's just cash,
Speaker 3: so we kind of feel good about it. And so
Speaker 3: we're like, whenever you want something, you just will adjust
Speaker 3: the budget to make sure it happens. And if you're
Speaker 3: using a credit card or not, it's fine, but you're
Speaker 3: always kind of saying, I want something, I make the
Speaker 3: budget allow me to have that thing done. My theory
Speaker 3: is that the credit card specifically might be upstream and
Speaker 3: be actually affecting our wants. And this is early for me,
Speaker 3: so I'm gonna I'm putting myself out there in this way,
Speaker 3: not fully formed thoughts. But if the credit card, if
Speaker 3: the use of a credit card actually affects your wants
Speaker 3: center like your dopamine hit center, and there's good research
Speaker 3: to say that it does, then it's actually affecting your wants,
Speaker 3: and then you're forcing your plan to adjust to this
Speaker 3: newly influenced want that came about because of credit card usage.
Speaker 2: So man, that's like another level deeper right there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I'm just curious about it. So I'll
Speaker 3: be back next year or whatever, and I'll let you
Speaker 3: guys know that I'm I'm like filthy rich now because
Speaker 3: I don't use it. You just you know that's not
Speaker 3: gonna be the case. But I will say one other
Speaker 3: one other win is it's far simpler. It's just far simpler.
Speaker 3: Just to have one instrument that you use. Fraud protection
Speaker 3: on debit cards is as good as it's ever been,
Speaker 3: So that one really doesn't hold water anymore, like it
Speaker 3: did you know fifteen years ago?
Speaker 2: Well, you know the points guy, if he was to
Speaker 2: talk to you, Jesse, he'd be like, I guess you
Speaker 2: just don't want that for your trip to Heati broh,
Speaker 2: Like what's your problem?
Speaker 3: You are telling, Well, you're talking to a guy that
Speaker 3: has literally millions of points, because because we spend in
Speaker 3: the business where we know in business you don't even
Speaker 3: you can't even have corporate spending without it being on
Speaker 3: a some kind of a credit system. And so even
Speaker 3: if you try and avoid it, you you almost can't.
Speaker 3: It's like built into all of your corporate spending. Employees
Speaker 3: have cards and things. So yeah, you're talking to a
Speaker 3: guy that has loads of points, and you know, does
Speaker 3: it make us spend more on the business?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: I sure hope not, because those millions of miles are
Speaker 3: way more expensive than being able to spend less. The
Speaker 3: fact that the banks love it so much. That's as
Speaker 3: my eighth grade you know, as my eighth grade daughter
Speaker 3: would say, that sounds a little sus you know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: no it does.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I totally get where you're coming from. And I
Speaker 2: think it is an interesting thing to consider. And I
Speaker 2: think you make some good points, and it's worth thinking
Speaker 2: about whether or not the we're being short sighted in
Speaker 2: credit card usage, and I think I think some people,
Speaker 2: a lot of people probably are. But I want to
Speaker 2: know too about maybe your take on like a bigger
Speaker 2: debt question, like good debt versus bad debt. Some people
Speaker 2: would say, we've had, for instance, Michelle Singletary, who writes
Speaker 2: for the Washington Post too we respect a ton who's
Speaker 2: been writing about personal finance for decades, and she says
Speaker 2: there is no such thing as good debt. And then
Speaker 2: other people would say, oh, my gosh, you have a
Speaker 2: mortgage at two and a half percent and inflation's you know,
Speaker 2: running hot at seven percent right now, you better just
Speaker 2: hold onto that thing. That thing's good for you. Do
Speaker 2: you have a take on.
Speaker 3: That, Yeah, it's more of a personal take. I paid
Speaker 3: off my mortgage as fast as I could when I
Speaker 3: when we bought our first house, and then we sold
Speaker 3: that house and we bought a more expensive house, and
Speaker 3: I had a mortgage on that for a few years
Speaker 3: and paid that. I just wanted to pay it off
Speaker 3: as fast as I could, So then I was sitting
Speaker 3: mortgage free with the first one. So I kind of
Speaker 3: jumped ahead and we bought a town home as like
Speaker 3: a rental, and so I had a I put fifty
Speaker 3: percent down. This was back when real estate didn't cost
Speaker 3: you like your firstborn. This is like twenty twelve or
Speaker 3: something like that, and so I got a mortgage on that,
Speaker 3: and it was kind of my own. It was our
Speaker 3: only mortgage. And then I bought another town home and
Speaker 3: I ended up with with four townhomes that were all
Speaker 3: over this period of years with very modest mortgages, totally
Speaker 3: cash flowing. At the end of the day, after we'd
Speaker 3: paid off our personal you know, our second home that
Speaker 3: we had bought again, I still ended up just paying
Speaker 3: off those, even the real estate. So I just don't
Speaker 3: want to be stressed like I and that's that it's
Speaker 3: worth so much to me, and I do benefit from
Speaker 3: a business that's profitable, and so it's not like I'm
Speaker 3: trying to make real estate my livelihood where I'm really like,
Speaker 3: I got to eke out financial, real financial return from this.
Speaker 3: And so in that instance, I can be more hand
Speaker 3: wavy about the financial upside to leverage. But push comes
Speaker 3: to shove as far as personal goes, I just I've
Speaker 3: never liked it. I feel like it it messes with
Speaker 3: your decision making in a real way and not in
Speaker 3: a good way. And so I like the idea of
Speaker 3: paying cash for stuff, saving up for things. And I've
Speaker 3: just never seen anyone say, you know, gosh, I really
Speaker 3: wish I were in more debt. I just never hear
Speaker 3: anyone drop that line. So I guess I agree with
Speaker 3: your friend of the Washington Post. I don't really think
Speaker 3: that there's good debt. I think if a lot of
Speaker 3: people could own their home free and clear, they absolutely would,
Speaker 3: regardless of how crazy low, artificially low, like crazy low,
Speaker 3: those interest rates are. And that's that in and of itself,
Speaker 3: is a financial camara, almost how low they've been for
Speaker 3: you know, it's like our age that you know, I'm
Speaker 3: guessing we're all about the same age. We think it's
Speaker 3: normal to be at that rate, you know, two, three, four,
Speaker 3: And that's nothing, that's nothing normal about that. It's just
Speaker 3: that it's always known for the last twenty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been talking about Oh I saw an article
Speaker 2: today interest rates are so high and it's curbing the
Speaker 2: housing market. It's like they're not high historically. They're high
Speaker 2: compared to what we've experienced lately over the past, you know,
Speaker 2: a few years, but they're not historically high. They're they're
Speaker 2: still pretty low. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And we were talking about, you know, winnapp specifically, the
Speaker 1: software that you founded. How can folks learn more about
Speaker 1: winnap And I'm actually curious too, y'all specifically you have
Speaker 1: a thirty four day free trial, So A where can
Speaker 1: folks learn about wynapp? And b why why is it
Speaker 1: a thirty four day trial?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they can learn about it at winam dot
Speaker 3: com and take classes, jump on YouTube, watch the videos.
Speaker 3: It's a different it's a really different way of thinking
Speaker 3: about money. So I would hope that they wouldn't just
Speaker 3: be like, oh, I used to use quickened, so I'll
Speaker 3: just replace it like it's different, And so you really
Speaker 3: want to make sure you see where the thinking is
Speaker 3: coming from and then look at how the tool integrates
Speaker 3: with that. As far as the thirty four day trial,
Speaker 3: we want you to see how it works with a
Speaker 3: month rolling over. So no matter when you start, if
Speaker 3: with a thirty four day trial, you'll always have a
Speaker 3: month plus a little to kind of see like, oh
Speaker 3: I set aside money this month, that money is available
Speaker 3: next month, and they can start to see that rule
Speaker 3: too in action and things starting to you know, cash
Speaker 3: starting to build up. It's liberating for people to see that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, thirty four day trial all day long helps
Speaker 3: people kind of make that early connection on what it's
Speaker 3: going to be like to save up for stuff, you know,
Speaker 3: like save now, buy later instead of whatever we have.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, let's make that a trend. Let's let that
Speaker 2: catch on seriously. And it's always free for students too.
Speaker 3: Write yeah, we give a free year for students, so okay,
Speaker 3: graduate student, high school student. And also we launched wine
Speaker 3: app together. So if you're listening to this and and
Speaker 3: you're like, oh man, this would be great for me,
Speaker 3: but also for like my teenage kid, you can buy
Speaker 3: you know, you buy subscription. It's one hundred bucks a year,
Speaker 3: so it's it's certainly reasonable. But then you can have
Speaker 3: I think up to five other people and we intend
Speaker 3: for this to be like family, you know, close family,
Speaker 3: but you could put your kids on it. You don't
Speaker 3: have to pay an extra subscription fee things like that.
Speaker 3: Once your kid flies the nest, which you hope happens,
Speaker 3: they get the free year and then they can go
Speaker 3: off on their way. So honestly, we really want the
Speaker 3: kids to be hooked on this like we wanted to
Speaker 3: just to think, oh, yeah, this is how you do money.
Speaker 3: You save up for stuff, you evaluate your priorities, you
Speaker 3: spend guilt free. We want to check all those boxes
Speaker 3: for these kids.
Speaker 2: I love it. Jesse, thank you so much for joining
Speaker 2: us on the show today. Man. We really appreciated it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate it all right, Joel.
Speaker 1: What a great conversation man, talking about something that is
Speaker 1: a fundamental building block when it comes to your personal finances.
Speaker 1: Talking with Jesse about budgeting, but specifically why NAB software
Speaker 1: that he pioneered, that he founded. What was your big
Speaker 1: takeaway from our conversation with him today.
Speaker 2: Well, one, I feel like you love budgets more than
Speaker 2: you love me. That's your best friend, and so I
Speaker 2: feel like this was probably like your favorite episode and everything.
Speaker 2: Everything he said. I was just like, yes, I can
Speaker 2: see over there, you're just like you're jeweling a little
Speaker 2: bit as he talked, Yeah, you're really into it. So no,
Speaker 2: I really appreciate every all the he was diving into,
Speaker 2: like the whole time, like the time space, money continue
Speaker 2: very much nerding out. It's one of those things I
Speaker 2: was going to say, this is one of those things
Speaker 2: that it's hard for us to conceptualize, but software can
Speaker 2: help us actually understand how that's working and then make
Speaker 2: plans accordingly. Sure, but like our feeble human brains have
Speaker 2: a hard time with that. But the software actually really
Speaker 2: I think helps drive that home for people, which is
Speaker 2: something we need to wrap our minds around if we're
Speaker 2: gonna you know, save and invest effectively. But I think
Speaker 2: my big takeaway from this combo with nugget Yeah, he said,
Speaker 2: knowing that you'll run out of money helps crystallize your
Speaker 2: priorities and the realities that we're all going to run
Speaker 2: out of money at some point depends on how quickly,
Speaker 2: depends on how much money we're making and how fast
Speaker 2: it's going out. But knowing that it's going to run
Speaker 2: out is going to help you crystallize those priorities, and
Speaker 2: so what is it that is most important to you?
Speaker 2: It's all about trade offs, right, And a lot of
Speaker 2: people look at our family and they're like, you guys,
Speaker 2: you guys are like, make enough money to afford two
Speaker 2: nice cars, what do you do? I'm driving one old,
Speaker 2: beat up junkie minivan. It's like, we just don't care.
Speaker 2: But knowing that it's going to run out helps us
Speaker 2: crystallize our priorities, and our priorities lie elsewhere. Someone on
Speaker 2: Twitter today said, what if you just got a million dollars,
Speaker 2: which one thing you would not upgrade? What's one thing
Speaker 2: you would not spend more money on? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: my car, I just don't care enough and I would
Speaker 2: rather see that money go elsewhere. You think about the Rivian,
Speaker 2: but you wouldn't pull the truck. Oh, I think about it.
Speaker 2: I'd lustily look at pictures on the internet, but then
Speaker 2: after that I would say no. And so I just
Speaker 2: think that's really important for you to know because we
Speaker 2: all everybody has limits, right, and there's only so many
Speaker 2: yachts that Jeff Bezos can even buy. Well that's probably
Speaker 2: bad example, but like, we all are going to run
Speaker 2: out at some point, and so let that crystallize in
Speaker 2: your mind the pose of ways that you can use
Speaker 2: your budget to funnel money towards the areas it really matter.
Speaker 1: Nice man, I like that mine has to do with
Speaker 1: how it is you spend as well. He was basically
Speaker 1: at some point earlier. I don't know his exact words,
Speaker 1: but he said that essentially, you shouldn't have any spending.
Speaker 2: On your books that you feel guilty about.
Speaker 1: Essentially, everything that you spend money on, it should be
Speaker 1: something that you are maybe not necessarily excited about, but
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be something that you feel bad for doing.
Speaker 2: And that's because hopefully you have.
Speaker 1: Aligned how it is that you are spending your money
Speaker 1: with the ways that you want to spend your money.
Speaker 1: And so if there are ways that you don't want
Speaker 1: to spend your money, well certainly it could have arisen
Speaker 1: from previous decisions that you made, maybe that were poor decisions.
Speaker 1: So if you're making like credit card payments or payments
Speaker 1: towards something that you have changed your mind on, well
Speaker 1: that might be a case where things aren't aligned, but
Speaker 1: that's because you made a you know, you made a
Speaker 1: poor decision in the past about pushing those expenses into
Speaker 1: the future.
Speaker 2: As opposed to push all done. Push.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely supposed to pushing your money into the future.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think if you do have something in
Speaker 1: your life that you are spending on every single month,
Speaker 1: and not only is it not providing you you joy
Speaker 1: and it's not providing you value, but you feel like
Speaker 1: it's something that like you have some sense of guilt
Speaker 1: associated with that, I would encourage folks out there to
Speaker 1: stop and to think why is it that you feel
Speaker 1: that way, because it can It might either be something
Speaker 1: super simple, It could be a practical reason. Is that,
Speaker 1: oh well this is a category maybe that we shouldn't
Speaker 1: be spending this money in this way. And so not
Speaker 1: only is it, can it be fixed in a very
Speaker 1: practical way and that you just change how it is
Speaker 1: that you're spending But maybe it could lead to you
Speaker 1: taking some time to self reflect and to think, why
Speaker 1: is it that I don't you know that I don't
Speaker 1: feel great about how it is I'm spending my.
Speaker 2: Money in this way.
Speaker 1: I think it could potentially lead to change in both areas.
Speaker 1: But I like that that you should not have any
Speaker 1: spending on your books that you feel guilty but I
Speaker 1: love too.
Speaker 2: When you talked about the budget burned down and it's
Speaker 2: this way to like completely reassess everything, because you might
Speaker 2: have just listened in your like big old reset. There's
Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff that I really want to do
Speaker 2: that I can't actually afford. But I got all these
Speaker 2: other old expenses laying around in my life, and if
Speaker 2: I could just cut a couple of those out, then
Speaker 2: maybe I could actually spend more money, money more freely
Speaker 2: on the things that I really actually care about. And
Speaker 2: so you might have three cars in your driveway and
Speaker 2: you're like, listen and budget burned down. I'm gonna sell
Speaker 2: one of them and I'm gonna rent the other one
Speaker 2: out on tour. What if we only had one? Yeah,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, those are the cars. Yeah, But if
Speaker 2: you just there is that sort of thing that happens
Speaker 2: to all of us, inertia bias. We start, we've done something,
Speaker 2: we kind of keep it going in perpetuity. But the
Speaker 2: budget burned down allows you to reassess everything, and I
Speaker 2: think that that can be helpful. You might not want
Speaker 2: to change a bunch of stuff, but you might you
Speaker 2: might want to change a lot this year, so it's
Speaker 2: worth of thinking about. All right, let's get back to
Speaker 2: to the beer that we had on this this episode.
Speaker 2: This was Igneous IPA by Hutton and Smith. Or your
Speaker 2: thoughts on this one? It's really good, man. This is
Speaker 2: a dry hopped IPA.
Speaker 1: These guys are out of Chattanooga, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was tasty. It was dry hopped.
Speaker 1: Oftentimes you expect some of those I don't know, I
Speaker 1: guess I saw dry hopped, and I saw the color
Speaker 1: of the cannon.
Speaker 2: I was expecting like a New England like dry hot beer.
Speaker 1: But it definitely was kind of more in that traditional
Speaker 1: IPA vests and it had some some of those sharper
Speaker 1: notes that you get from a dry hot beer.
Speaker 2: A little more piny, a little more bitter.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but not like over the top with like
Speaker 1: that West Coast resin. It's still had some sweetness that
Speaker 1: still had a multi backbone to it as well.
Speaker 2: But definitely enjoyed it. What were your thoughts? Yeah on
Speaker 2: this one? Similar Basically it tasted really like a classic IPA.
Speaker 2: It reminded me of like beer some of those olds
Speaker 2: here and about it I pas that are just yeah, classics,
Speaker 2: but they don't make them like that very much anymore.
Speaker 2: Like the tendency is toward the juicy haze bombs, and
Speaker 2: so this one has that more those like more piny,
Speaker 2: traditional bitter characteristics torpedo a little bit, but not over
Speaker 2: the top either. So yeah, I liked it. I liked it.
Speaker 2: It's and it's nice to have a change up in
Speaker 2: I pas because we do drink so many of those
Speaker 2: orange juice IPAs, Yeah, big juicy one, So it's fun
Speaker 2: to try something, you know, a little more old school.
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, Well, we'll make sure to link to
Speaker 1: whyab where you can learn more about you need to
Speaker 1: budget there budgeting software. You can find that link up
Speaker 1: in our show notes at howdomoney dot com. Joel, that's
Speaker 1: going to be it for this episode, Buddy, until next time,
Speaker 1: best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,