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Speaker 1: Happy New Year, everybody, Joel, I should say Happy New

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Speaker 1: Year to you first, sitting here right in front of me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, why you gotta tell everyone else first?

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Speaker 1: I will say this is our last best episode for

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Speaker 1: this holiday season. But with it being the new Year,

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Speaker 1: we figured there. I don't know, there might be some

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Speaker 1: folks who were taking the day off. We certainly are

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Speaker 1: taking New Years off, but that doesn't mean we wanted

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Speaker 1: to leave you hanging without how to money episodes.

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Speaker 2: Well, in this one, it felt like the right one

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Speaker 2: to play at this point time because a lot of

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Speaker 2: people but budgeting is a four letter word to some folks.

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Speaker 2: Well folks, some folks hate budgeting or they've been inapropriately

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Speaker 2: taught about budgeting. They should give it a shot. The

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Speaker 2: way it's been talked about has been like, uh, frustrating.

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Speaker 1: I'll think about the way we talked about it most

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Speaker 1: recently on Monday's Financial festiv Us. Think about all the

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Speaker 1: folks who were able to make significant changes to the

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Speaker 1: personal finances because they said, and this this is ingrained

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Speaker 1: in my mind and I don't know why, but multiple

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Speaker 1: folks said that they religiously track their spending and.

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Speaker 2: The amount of money they were able to find in

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Speaker 2: their lives because of it significant thirty thousand dollars the

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Speaker 2: fact that they were able to, oh my gosh, buy

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Speaker 2: a home for the first time.

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Speaker 1: These are the kind of money moves that we want

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Speaker 1: to see people making in this coming year. And like

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Speaker 1: you said, though there are a lot of there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of pushback when it comes to budgeting, Just

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Speaker 1: give it a shot. Like the upside is it could

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Speaker 1: be massive, right, like it's yeah, and the downside okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe you waste a little bit of times.

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Speaker 2: And if anyone can convince you to budget, I think

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Speaker 2: it's Jesse in this episode, Like Jessa is Jesse Meachum

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Speaker 2: started the business because he was so in love with budgeting.

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Speaker 2: Why nab you need a budget? He's got an infectious

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Speaker 2: way of talking about budgeting that hopefully can help it

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Speaker 2: sink in past your brain to your heart.

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Speaker 1: It makes me think about like scheduling a date night

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Speaker 1: with your signific with your significant other. What's the worst

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Speaker 1: that could happen? Okay, maybe you waste a little bit

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Speaker 1: of time.

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Speaker 2: But the upside, oh my gosh, like you've just mean,

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Speaker 2: like your dates are a wasted time sometimes.

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Speaker 1: No, not mine, But like if somebody else is out

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Speaker 1: there and they're thinking, I don't want to we don't

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Speaker 1: do date nights. That's not that's not how we roll.

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Speaker 1: I think the potential, like the potential growth within. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to give like relationship advice here, I wish

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Speaker 1: you would, but there's a massive potential for what could happen, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it feels like it's only up into the right and

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Speaker 1: the downsides are pretty minimal.

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Speaker 2: So that's how we think about budgeting, like, just give

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Speaker 2: it a shot. Why not?

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Speaker 1: The worst thing that could happen is that you just

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Speaker 1: realize maybe okay, Yeah, in fact, I don't really like enjoying.

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Speaker 1: I don't enjoy doing this, But the potential for you

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Speaker 1: to start saving so much more money, I think.

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Speaker 2: Could be huge. Yeah. So I think if your history

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Speaker 2: with budgeting is not good, like either you couldn't stick

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Speaker 2: with it or you have a bad taste in your mouth,

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Speaker 2: this is the episode for you, I think to It's

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Speaker 2: like a cleansing mint after eating a lot of gar

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Speaker 2: like or something. So yeah, check this episode out. We

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Speaker 2: hope you like it, and we hope it helps you

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Speaker 2: as we enter twenty twenty five to make budgeting a

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Speaker 2: part of your life so that you can crush your

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Speaker 2: finances this year.

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Speaker 1: And we'll see you back here in a couple of

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Speaker 1: days with the fresh Friday flight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Hat to Money. I'm Joel on Matt. Today

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Speaker 2: we're talking budgeting like a Beast with Jesse Meekham. That's right,

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Speaker 2: Jesse Meekham. He is joining us on the podcast today

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Speaker 2: and we are going all in on budgeting.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing there's a number of folks listening who might

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Speaker 1: recognize his name, but I'm guessing even more folks are

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Speaker 1: familiar with the company he started back in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three while he was still in college. You need

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Speaker 1: a budget, or why NAB as it's commonly known what

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Speaker 1: we call it. Millions of individuals have now used why

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Speaker 1: NAB to get on a budget, which has allowed them

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Speaker 1: to achieve their life changing financial goals. And so whether

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Speaker 1: that's simply paying off debt or the complicated endeavor of

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Speaker 1: getting on the same page as your partner, that's difficult.

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Speaker 1: Jesse has likely thought more about budgeting over the past

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Speaker 1: twenty years than anyone else out there, so we're excited

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Speaker 1: to talk with him about all the things that he's

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Speaker 1: learned and observed Jesse, thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 3: I am so glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks guys, Jesse, We're glad to have you. And the

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Speaker 2: first question we ask everyone who comes on the show

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Speaker 2: is what's your what do you like to sporte on?

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Speaker 2: We call it your craft beer equivalent because Matt and

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Speaker 2: I we spend more money than most people would think

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Speaker 2: is normal on craft beer because we love it. But

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Speaker 2: we're happy to do that because we're saving and investing

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Speaker 2: well for the future while we're spending a lot of

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Speaker 2: money on beer. So what do you what do you

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of money on that maybe people might

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Speaker 2: think is kind of crazy. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't mix beer and what I spend a lot

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Speaker 3: of money on, but I would say my wood shop

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Speaker 3: is a It is a money pit and there's always

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Speaker 3: another thing you can buy. I'm currently in the shop

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Speaker 3: for a floor or in the market for it like

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Speaker 3: a floor standing variable speed drill press.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So what are you making in this wood shop?

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Speaker 2: Are you making like canoes? Ron Swanson style? What are

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Speaker 2: you doing?

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Speaker 3: If I had these skills of Ron Swanson, I would

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Speaker 3: have a rived. But I he's in real life. He

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Speaker 3: is a killer woodworker.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, yeah, I mean making beautiful handcrafted canoes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's insane. So yeah. Anyway, I have his book

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Speaker 3: here actually called Good Clean Fun by Nick Offerman. It's

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Speaker 3: it's excellent, but the yeah, I will make anything. But

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Speaker 3: right now I'm working on shop furniture like I'm because

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Speaker 3: you can kind of learn like it's if it's if

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Speaker 3: it looks bad, it doesn't matter because it's all in

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Speaker 3: your shop. So I'm learning a lot of the basics.

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm taking like a general like basic woodworking course

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Speaker 3: where they go through all the different joinery, kind of

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Speaker 3: the foundational joinery. And I love just being a novice.

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Speaker 3: So I I have a shop that looks like I'm

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Speaker 3: a professional, and I am a novice, and I'm not

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Speaker 3: ashamed to admit it. I just I think it's fun

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Speaker 3: to get the new tools. So whenever I can squeeze

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Speaker 3: it into the old plan, I do it very nice.

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Speaker 1: So are you pursuing this purely out of just with it,

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Speaker 1: you know, with it being a passion as you know,

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Speaker 1: as oh yeah, an interest, not something that you foresee

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Speaker 1: being able to sell.

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Speaker 3: You know, fine, I would have ruined it. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to ruin my hobby about monetizing.

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Speaker 2: He's gonna open up like a woodside stands. People are

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Speaker 2: gonna be like, I'm not paying for that.

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Speaker 1: It was Jesse might get so good that folks are saying,

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Speaker 1: please let me buy that that beautiful.

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Speaker 3: I will give. I will gift it to them. I will,

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Speaker 3: but I refuse to transact in this way. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to taint it.

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Speaker 2: Don't take, don't ruin it. Jesse, I love it.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's kind of start talking about money, not just

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Speaker 1: the wood, but so unlike most folks, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: your parents actually had like a positive influence on you

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Speaker 1: when it comes to getting you started down the path

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Speaker 1: of personal finance. How is it that you first started

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Speaker 1: learning about money?

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Speaker 3: So, I, uh, my parents modeled it well. They modeled

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Speaker 3: frugality well, I will say they were really good at

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Speaker 3: just saying we don't have money for that, we're not

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Speaker 3: gonna spend money on it. We we lived, I mean

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Speaker 3: we were you know, middle class, but we lived below

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Speaker 3: our means as far as I could gather as a

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Speaker 3: as a kid and kind of observed. So they were

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Speaker 3: just very, very frugal. I used to think that the

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Speaker 3: word vacation meant driving ten hours to Grandma's house. I

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Speaker 3: didn't know that there were other options besides just driving

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Speaker 3: up there. And then literally one time, starting to read

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Speaker 3: the encyclopedia at a I got to Abacus. I didn't

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Speaker 3: make it very far, but like, I just bored on

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Speaker 3: my vacation, so that, I mean, that's just what we did.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't know any different, and it was great

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Speaker 3: and they were loving, and so you can't complain at all.

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Speaker 3: But one thing that my dad in particular did, I

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Speaker 3: think I was fourteen, and he said, hey, you should

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Speaker 3: read these books. And so he didn't just say I

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Speaker 3: want to teach you about money. He was just like,

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Speaker 3: you might find these interesting. And he gave me a couple.

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Speaker 3: He gave me Ramsey's book that was Financial Piece, and

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Speaker 3: I think now the Total Money Makeover is kind of

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Speaker 3: their his more flagship book, but Financial Piece was the

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Speaker 3: one that I read, and Ramsey taught me not to

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Speaker 3: like debt at all, to hate debt even as a

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Speaker 3: fourteen year old, and I thought, okay, that sounds good.

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Speaker 3: And then he gave me The Millionaire next Door, another

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Speaker 3: great one to kind of learn like it's not about

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Speaker 3: what you see, but it's about what's kind of under

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Speaker 3: the covers a lot of the time. And then the

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Speaker 3: final one was The Richest Man in Babylon, which is

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Speaker 3: probably my favorite overall, just those principles approachable. It's the

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Speaker 3: same first one I would give, you know, I give

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Speaker 3: my kids when they are like, hey, I want to

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Speaker 3: learn something. I don't want to sit down and teach them.

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Speaker 3: I just want to say, well, here's a book. And

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Speaker 3: I think as a kid it's easier to learn sometimes

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Speaker 3: from someone else, and so I think it was wise

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Speaker 3: of my dad just to say, well, hey, learn it

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Speaker 3: from these you know, from these books, And it formed

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Speaker 3: a lot of my early opinions. Some of them have

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Speaker 3: developed over the years a little differently, but it was

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Speaker 3: early informative. And I am forever grateful that I had

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Speaker 3: a disdain for debt early on and avoided it in

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Speaker 3: college because of that, and that I saw early on

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Speaker 3: that I should start with start with investing, and get

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Speaker 3: an early jump on it. So yeah, I will be

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Speaker 3: forever grateful for the to the authors of those books

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Speaker 3: and to my dad for giving them to me.

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Speaker 2: Well, you talk about modeling your parents, modeling the right behaviors,

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Speaker 2: but then not being the ones to necessarily preach it

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Speaker 2: at you, you know, over and over. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's really important because I think modeling goes the farthest.

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Speaker 2: Then let someone else do the preaching and maybe that's

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Speaker 2: the best combo. And it's interesting you mentioned your kids too.

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Speaker 2: You've got seven kids, which is as much as Matt

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Speaker 2: and I have kids, and we got to catch up.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you need a spreadsheet to run that many kids,

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Speaker 3: right right, you guys would be fine, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's easier for us. I've got family five, he's

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Speaker 2: got a family six. But you got it, you got

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Speaker 2: a massive family. So how does that How has that

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Speaker 2: impacted your Did that like make you feel like you

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Speaker 2: needed a budget? Obviously you started your journey even before that.

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Speaker 2: But have you found it to come in even more handy?

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Speaker 2: Have you? I've been big of a family.

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Speaker 3: Well, honestly, the first the thing that made me and

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Speaker 3: my wife's name is Julie, that that made us feel

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Speaker 3: like we had to really be careful early on was

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Speaker 3: we were we were dirt poor, and we were both

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Speaker 3: in school and just eching by, and then we were

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Speaker 3: going to get married, and so combining these meager finances

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Speaker 3: together it doesn't do any there's no synergy there. You're

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Speaker 3: just like, okay, now we both make I mean, there

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Speaker 3: was just no win and we were actually paying more

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Speaker 3: in rent than we would have been as single kids anyway.

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Speaker 3: So I'm just like, man, Julie, we got to be

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Speaker 3: really careful. So we get married. I build this little

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Speaker 3: spreadsheet that later became wine app but at the time

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Speaker 3: it was just for me and for Julie and we

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Speaker 3: start watching everything really close. But the thing that pushed

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Speaker 3: me to say, hey, maybe I could sell this spreadsheet

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Speaker 3: was it had worked for us for that year. We

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Speaker 3: were able to start saving money, and then we saw

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Speaker 3: that a baby was coming and it was planned, but

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Speaker 3: we were still not making a lot of money, like

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Speaker 3: ten bucks, you know, eleven bucks an hour and trying

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Speaker 3: to get through school and so to have a baby inbound,

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Speaker 3: that was what made us think, Okay, we got to

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Speaker 3: try and figure out some way to let Julie exit

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Speaker 3: the workforce and have me be able to try and

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Speaker 3: balance maybe earning some side money and finishing up school.

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Speaker 3: So the push of providing for kids, oh, that was

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Speaker 3: what gave us that that drive, and so I'm grateful

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Speaker 3: for it. It's not fun in the moment, but it

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Speaker 3: does kind of squeeze the creativity out of you at times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kicking the pants.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing like in another human being being dependent on

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Speaker 1: your ability to manage your own finances in order to

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Speaker 1: provide for them. So that certainly can be that, like

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Speaker 1: you said, you'll kick in the pants. But like, what

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Speaker 1: would you say, Jesse, to folks who or otherwise than

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Speaker 1: just repulse by the idea of making a budget. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: I would love for you to maybe make a case

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Speaker 1: for budgets for those out there who don't necessarily feel

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Speaker 1: like it's something they need to do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I don't even like the word budget.

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Speaker 3: I wish that our company was named something really I

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Speaker 3: don't know, fancy, like that sounds like a perfume. Maybe

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Speaker 3: I don't know, something different. Because people they hear the

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Speaker 3: word budget and they think restriction, no more fun diet.

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Speaker 3: It's just like everything's just going to kind of bear

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Speaker 3: down on them, and maybe their their spouse or significant

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Speaker 3: other tells them, hey, we need a budget, and then

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Speaker 3: it's like double worse. It's like, Okay, not only will

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Speaker 3: we a budget, but you're going to be running the

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Speaker 3: budget and I'm going to be the one that's making

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Speaker 3: all the mistakes and just nothing is good about it.

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Speaker 3: So a budget is really it's just a plan, and

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Speaker 3: all we really care about is that people are intentional

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Speaker 3: with their money and that's it. That's the end of it.

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Speaker 3: We want people to love how they spend their money

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Speaker 3: instead of having their spending just stress them out, strain

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Speaker 3: their relationship, suck the fun out of everything. I mean,

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Speaker 3: people are so worried about a budget taking the fun

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Speaker 3: out of life, but they will go on vacation with

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Speaker 3: this like this low burn like kind of simmer in

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Speaker 3: the back of their mind. As they're racking up credit

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Speaker 3: card debt. They're just like, I know this isn't good.

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Speaker 3: I know this isn't good. And so I'm trying to say, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe try the thing where you save up for the

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Speaker 3: vacation and you actually get to spend money guilt free.

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Speaker 3: So a budget's just a plan, and it's your plan

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Speaker 3: and you get to make it however you want. But

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Speaker 3: if it means that if you have to do a

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Speaker 3: budget in order to have a pile of intention kind

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Speaker 3: of like rising up behind your money, then that's that's

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Speaker 3: what we want. And that's what we're gonna call it.

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Speaker 3: We are you got. You gotta love how you spend

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Speaker 3: your money. If you feel guilty about it, there's a problem. Right,

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Speaker 3: If you're arguing with your spouse, it means there's a problem.

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Speaker 3: And so we want to get that spending lined up

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Speaker 3: with your real priorities. And then man, you're off to

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Speaker 3: the races. That that's when money becomes fun. And I

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Speaker 3: don't know, I can't imagine any other way.

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Speaker 2: So do we just rename you need a budget to

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Speaker 2: you need a money plan, wine amp.

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Speaker 3: Something like that, or or the can thing I could like,

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Speaker 3: you know, mystique or something I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well, yeah, you let me know when

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Speaker 2: you're ready for that rebrand. I'm curious to hear how

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Speaker 2: how it takes out cool water. I think when you're

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Speaker 2: in middle school a car. Maybe that was a good one.

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Speaker 2: Uh well, Jesse, some folks in the financial independence community,

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Speaker 2: they're just super naturally frugal, right, and so they would say,

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Speaker 2: I am intentional with my money, but I don't feel

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Speaker 2: like I need the budget part. And so based on

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Speaker 2: what you just said, I wait, what would you say

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Speaker 2: to someone like that who says like I'm handling things

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Speaker 2: pretty well. I've got a huge gap between incoming and

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Speaker 2: outgoing investing a lot for the future. Like, do I

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Speaker 2: need to sit down and actually like mess with the

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Speaker 2: numbers every single month or every other week?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, No, they don't. If if they're if

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Speaker 3: you're have some massive gap between you know, money in

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Speaker 3: and money out, and the net worth keeps climbing even

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Speaker 3: if the market's doing what it's been doing, especially, then

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Speaker 3: you're good to go. You have a plan and the

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Speaker 3: plan is working because the score that we're keeping is

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Speaker 3: net worth, and especially I would say the score is

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Speaker 3: how much you are sending to your investment pile. Not

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Speaker 3: so much fluctuations in the market, you can't totally control that,

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Speaker 3: but the fact that you're you're you know, you got

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Speaker 3: a big shovel and you're flinging tons of money over

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Speaker 3: the wall into that retirement bucket you're winning. So I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't change a thing now for someone that's like, hey, Jesse,

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Speaker 3: my net worth it's you know, I'm not really saving

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Speaker 3: a ton, but I know that I'm frugal, then I'd

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Speaker 3: be like, oh no, they or they like I already

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Speaker 3: know the much. Yeah, they're like, I already know how

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Speaker 3: much I spend. I'm like no, or I I know that,

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Speaker 3: I just I EQ anyway, so I already am tight.

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Speaker 3: I don't need to look. That's all just ways of

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Speaker 3: saying like I don't really want to be aware, or

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Speaker 3: I'm actually unaware, or I think I'm aware and I'm not.

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Speaker 3: All those things we want to make sure we iron out.

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Speaker 3: So but for the person that like literally their money

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Speaker 3: just keeps growing and growing, yeah, you hit it, you're

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Speaker 3: doing it. You just don't. You aren't super granular in

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Speaker 3: your plan for your spending, but you're you're nailing it

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Speaker 3: on those big big movers, you know, those big goals.

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Speaker 3: Then yeah, you're good to go. I wouldn't have you

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Speaker 3: change a thing.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say those people are unicorns, but

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Speaker 2: they're not.

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Speaker 3: As it's just I'm not worried my market's going to

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Speaker 3: disappear by just you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's maybe one percent of the population that

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Speaker 2: really is is in that realm of managing their finances.

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Speaker 2: But I do think it's important to mention that that

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Speaker 2: some of those folks is exist and they might not

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Speaker 2: need a budget in the same way that most.

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Speaker 3: Now, if I could interject one more thing, someone that's

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Speaker 3: you know, Elon Bezos, these massively wealthy people, they still,

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Speaker 3: hopefully with all of this resources, hopefully are being extremely

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Speaker 3: intentional with all of that value that's there. So when

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Speaker 3: you have someone that's like I make tons Jesse, I

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Speaker 3: don't have to worry about it. I would kind of

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Speaker 3: turn around and say, listen, man, you you have been

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Speaker 3: gifted this, You've worked for it, however you want to say,

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Speaker 3: this came into your possession. You have something tremendously valuable

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Speaker 3: in this world. Let's not be so cavalier and so

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Speaker 3: flippant about the fact that you have this massively useful

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Speaker 3: resources that could potentially be, you know, deployed to have

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Speaker 3: some great effect in the world. And I'm not even meaning, hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, shame on you for not giving it away.

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Speaker 3: There are plenty of charities that I'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: that probably wasn't a great use of money, if you know, Like,

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Speaker 3: I'm no judge of that, but just let's take you

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Speaker 3: and make sure that all of your intention, all of

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Speaker 3: the best parts of you are channeled behind that big

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Speaker 3: pile of money, and that it becomes something great and grand.

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Speaker 3: Let's not have it just be frittered away. So for

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Speaker 3: those that have a fantastic pile of resources, I think

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Speaker 3: it's incumbent upon them even more so to be really intentional,

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Speaker 3: really thoughtful, careful about what they do with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that looks like a budget, but like you said,

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Speaker 1: it's having a plan. And I think even those folks

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Speaker 1: would be able to benefit from a plan because you

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Speaker 1: take a high reformer and you put them under the

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Speaker 1: direction of an amazing coach, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: they're doing stuff that they never thought was possible. Right,

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Speaker 1: if making millions came easy to them, we'll just think

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Speaker 1: what you.

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Speaker 2: Could do otherwise.

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Speaker 1: But I like what you said too, Like, at least

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Speaker 1: from an investing standpoint, they're kind of knocking it out

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Speaker 1: of the park. But I mean, one of the reasons that,

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Speaker 1: or one of the ways I guess my wife and

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Speaker 1: I were able to Kate and I that we were

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Speaker 1: able to get on the same page just when it

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Speaker 1: came to budgeting, is because we saw it as a

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Speaker 1: way essentially, as a way for us to have some

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Speaker 1: freedom and how it is that we spend our money.

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Speaker 1: Because I think, I mean, my natural tendency might be

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Speaker 1: to not just be frugal, but just to seriously deprive ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, exactly, we saw an ability for us to,

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Speaker 1: like you said, be intentional with our money, but just

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Speaker 1: we had the freedom to then spend our money in

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Speaker 1: the ways that we said we wanted to. But maybe

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Speaker 1: in practice we found that to be harder. Yeah, moving

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Speaker 1: it from like the head and what we said we're

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Speaker 1: going to do on paper into reality for us was difficult.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, It's it's liberating to have the plan allow

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Speaker 3: you to do things. It's weird because you set up

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Speaker 3: the plan, you agreed to it, you wrote it down

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Speaker 3: a week before or whatever. It's weird that we suddenly

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Speaker 3: divorce ourselves from the plan as if it's not us,

408
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Speaker 3: but it is. But it allows us to kind of push,

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Speaker 3: like defer back to it and say, well, what did

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Speaker 3: the plan say I could do, Oh, the big plans

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Speaker 3: so I could buy these fantastically expensive boots that will

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Speaker 3: last forever. And I say that because it's a real

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Speaker 3: example that I'm in the market for. So splurtis again.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's like, oh, okay, this will be

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Speaker 3: really cool. I'm really excited about this. But push came

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Speaker 3: to shove. If the plan weren't telling me that I

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Speaker 3: actually could do it, I think I would struggle with

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Speaker 3: it because I'm just now actually wired to squeeze, you know,

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Speaker 3: squeeze those dollars. So I love that it gives you

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Speaker 3: the permission, like you give yourself the permission, but in

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Speaker 3: this indirect way that allows it to fill a little

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Speaker 3: more free flowing.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Again, I don't know what percentage of the population

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Speaker 2: those natural, ridiculously frugal people are. I think Matt and

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Speaker 2: I might both be those, and actually making a plan

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Speaker 2: for our money has helped us feel free to spend

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Speaker 2: in the ways that we otherwise would probably not do.

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Speaker 2: And it's really it's helped my marriage out because then

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Speaker 2: I'm not like saying no to everything, even though those

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Speaker 2: are things we want to do. But I guess, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: I want to I want to know more too about

432
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 2: winnab And you talked about kind of how it started

433
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 2: with a spreadsheet that you created just to be able

434
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,160
Speaker 2: to get by making very little money and to help

435
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 2: your wife stay at home. But how did it turn

436
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 2: into a fintech company and a wildly successful one. I mean,

437
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,959
Speaker 2: I saw at the end of last year, the Wall

438
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 2: Street Journal said why NAB was the best budgeting gap?

439
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,879
Speaker 2: Like that's huge, Like that's massive. Yeah, So how did

440
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 2: you get to that point?

441
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,679
Speaker 3: Well, you know, almost twenty years in you get the

442
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 3: Wash Journal to write about it, you know what I mean?

443
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 3: So that a decade ago, guys, Yeah, like that would

444
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 3: have helped a lot. But I've always loved the topic.

445
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 3: I've always loved teaching people about it, and I am

446
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 3: a teacher at heart, and so we've always had the model. Now,

447
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 3: the software, the spreadsheet's been long gone as of like

448
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: I think six or something, But then we had some

449
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,360
Speaker 3: really you know, some great software that you would download

450
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 3: and install and paste a license key for people that

451
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: grew up without apps and whatnot. But then the apps

452
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 3: came along, and now the WebApp, and so it just keeps.

453
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 3: The software keeps kind of hopefully keeping pace with what

454
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 3: technology is allowing us to do. But the method behind

455
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 3: it has has always been kind of like the special juice,

456
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 3: the thing that makes it work. So we always say

457
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 3: that the software is second fiddle to the method, to

458
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 3: the thinking. And if someone can take what we teach

459
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 3: method wise, these four rules, and I'm sure we'll get

460
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 3: into later. But if they can take that and run

461
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 3: with it, no matter how they implement it, it'll work really,

462
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 3: really well because the method works very very.

463
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 1: Well, even though the technology has changed. There are four

464
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: rules in particular that you wrote down a long time ago.

465
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 2: So we're gonna talk about those rules. We're gonna talk

466
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 2: about them in stone tablets.

467
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, we're gonna talk about maybe some just some

468
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 1: general budgeting strategy as well.

469
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,959
Speaker 2: We'll get to all of that right after this break.

470
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: All right, let's keep rolling. Let's talk about budgeting like

471
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: a beast. We're still talking with Jesse Meekham. And if

472
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 2: there's Matt anybody to cover this topic well with us,

473
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 2: it is Jesse.

474
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: It's the guy that's a woodworker who's saving up for

475
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: some nice leather boots to wear in his woodshot Exactly.

476
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to you don't want to puncture those

477
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 2: toes if like some mistake app is or anything like that.

478
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,479
Speaker 2: But Jesse, you talked about the four rules. You alluded

479
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 2: to them before the break, but that's where everything starts.

480
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 2: I when it comes to the wine app software, can

481
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 2: you give us an overview of those four rules and

482
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 2: why you think that that's kind of the revolutionary. Like

483
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: Matt said, secret sauce to making budgeting work for people.

484
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I had mentioned earlier that we want

485
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: people to love how they spend their money, and spending

486
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 3: is just decision making at the end of the day,

487
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 3: and people try and dress it up and make it

488
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: some other thing. That money is different, but it is

489
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 3: just decisions. And the method that teaches is for rules

490
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: that's essentially just to help you make better decisions. So

491
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 3: our first rule we call it giving every dollar a job.

492
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 3: And what that means is if you decide to spend

493
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 3: money on tool A, you can't spend money on tool B.

494
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 3: If you decide to go out for sushi, you maybe

495
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 3: can't also go out for you know, drinks another day.

496
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 3: It's that if I spend here, I maybe can't spend

497
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,959
Speaker 3: over there. And it's the it's acknowledging that we have

498
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 3: finite resources. And while while finance capital f large industry

499
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: wants you to feel like you have infinite resources and

500
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 3: you can spend and swipe and buy out, pay later

501
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 3: and all that stuff that they want you to feel

502
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: like you never run out, but you have to ignore

503
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: knowledge that you run out because that helps you crystallize

504
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 3: what your priorities are and start to make better decisions.

505
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 3: So when you operate with a zero based budget, whether

506
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 3: it's with wine app or any number of other tools

507
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: that do that, it's that idea of it's finite. So

508
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: with that in place, you're now weighing your priorities and

509
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: good decisions come from that. We then move to rule two,

510
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 3: where we call it embracing your true expenses, and essentially

511
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: that's looking ahead and thinking about larger, less frequent expenses

512
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: and then dividing those up into more manageable monthly amounts.

513
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 3: So I mentioned sushi. It's kind of like me saying,

514
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 3: all right, I want to go to sushi today, but

515
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 3: also I'm looking at Christmas that just happened, and I'm saying, oh, well,

516
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 3: Christmas is in twelve months or whatever. Is this going

517
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 3: to work? Is Christmas and sushi today going to work?

518
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 3: And people don't make they don't do that kind of calculus.

519
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: Or it's a lot like if you're standing, like I

520
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: don't know, in the tire store or something, and your

521
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 3: tire just blue, and the guy's there and he's like, Okay,

522
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: the four tires are going to be let's pray that

523
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 3: they're only like eight hundred bucks. Right, The four tires

524
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 3: are going to be eight hundred dollars and you have

525
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: the money for the four tires. So you're like, man,

526
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 3: I'm feeling good. But it's like a pizza delivery guy

527
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 3: walks into and he's just like, Jesse, I know those

528
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,719
Speaker 3: tires are eight hundred, and you have the eight hundred,

529
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 3: but don't you want to spend one hundred bucks on

530
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: pizza for your kids and their friends and maybe their

531
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 3: friends and just have some. And you're like, no, I

532
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: absolutely do not want to do that, not because of

533
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 3: all the kids in the house, but because I want

534
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: to pay for the tires. And so it's this interesting

535
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 3: situation where with rule one, we're prioritizing, and with rule two,

536
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 3: we're prioritizing with future priorities and current priorities, and they're

537
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 3: getting equal footing during our decision making process. So, Faye,

538
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: my youngest daughter, I have to refer to my spreadsheet

539
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: to make sure I get that straight. But you know, Fay,

540
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 3: my youngest she's like, Okay, I want to save up

541
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 3: for this Christmas gift for fee, and I also want

542
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 3: to buy this thing, right, now and suddenly you have

543
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 3: a really interesting prioritization that's happening. Now do I sit there?

544
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 3: I'm always like, oh am, I going to take a

545
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: gift from face Christmas? No, of course not. But as

546
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 3: you're doing the decisions, you are. And so this idea

547
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 3: of future you and current you, and then future Julie

548
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: and current Julie, we're all sitting at the table, you know,

549
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 3: table together negotiating and there's one that's like I want

550
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: money for tires, and other ones like I want pizza tonight,

551
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 3: and we're weighing that. So between rule one and rule two,

552
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: decision making starts to really improve. I'll pause there just

553
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 3: in case you guys have questions. But I'm like an automaton.

554
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: If you put a quarter in me or ask me

555
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: about the four rules, I just kind of go.

556
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: So I get, yeah, let's ahead and jump in here

557
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: before you move on with the additional rules. Because you know,

558
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: when you talk about giving every dollar a job, like,

559
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: it makes me think about just budgeting in general. Right, Like,

560
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: if we ask you to define the word budget, I'm

561
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: curious to hear what you'd say, because you know, you

562
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: did say a plan earlier. But it's like, at the

563
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: heart of budgeting is the first rule, giving every dollar

564
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: a job where you are just being intentional when it

565
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: comes to like you said, the decisions that you're making,

566
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: is does that seem accurate?

567
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I would say if I were to

568
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: define I've never done this before, perhaps, but if I

569
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: were to define it off the cuff, a budget is

570
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 3: a plan attached to finite resources.

571
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: That's it given a specific timeframe as well, you know,

572
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: when it comes to embracing this true expenses, because I

573
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: think a big part of those those true expenses is

574
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: the fact that I think there's so much in our

575
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: life that feels urgent, that seems urgent, and so oftentimes

576
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: we're just looking to whatever pops up in front of

577
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: us and we think, oh, okay, that is now something

578
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: I have to tackle, that's something we have to spend

579
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: money on. And it's just about it's almost about getting

580
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: in front of that a little bit and knowing that

581
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: it's on its way, as opposed to you just reacting

582
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: to something passively. It's proactively managing those expectations absolutely knowing

583
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: they're going to come down the pike.

584
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, it is. It is completely and totally proactive.

585
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 3: You know, if you manage your day the way you

586
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 3: manage your money, I'm speaking to the eighty percent that

587
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: don't do it well, you'd be a wreck. You know,

588
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 3: you're a train wreck. You we're just reacting to everything

589
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: that comes along, and at the end of the day,

590
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: you're always like, well, geez, I didn't get the important

591
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 3: thing done. That happens with people's money all the time.

592
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 3: They're just like we manage time. We're just trying to

593
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: manage another finite resource that also can essentially travel through time,

594
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 3: and we're looking at how our future will look, how

595
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: our you know, the current environment looks, and we're trying

596
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: to weigh that together. It's interesting to do it this

597
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: way because what we want people to get in there

598
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 3: kind of in practice is not that budgeting is where

599
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: you're forecasting your income. You're saying I will earn this,

600
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: I will earn this. We tie it back to the

601
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 3: finiteness of their money, and we say, how much is

602
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: in your checking account right now? Okay, what do you

603
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: want that money to do before you're paid again? And

604
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: that question whether you're making one hundred grand a year,

605
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 3: three hundred grand, fifty grand, doesn't matter that question starts

606
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 3: to push on the priorities and starts to force the decisions.

607
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: So then you can say, well, okay, I've got all

608
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: these current needs, but then we get future you to

609
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: come to the table. Also, it's like, well, you know,

610
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: what about in three months when you wanted to go

611
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 3: on vacation, you know, do you want to throw some

612
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 3: money there. So it's more about allocating not just for now,

613
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 3: but also almost like you're allocating to these different jobs

614
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 3: along a timeline, and in that way you can be

615
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 3: really ready for the future. It's funny too, because people

616
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 3: mentioned when they've started using wine up for they've used

617
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 3: it for a while, they stop needing the traditional kind

618
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: of personal finance emergency fund because they're finding that they

619
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: are having fewer emergencies. Because the car tires that wear out,

620
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 3: that is an emergency only if you don't have the money.

621
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: But if you do have the money, it's no emergency

622
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 3: at all. Or if the HVAC goes out or property

623
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 3: taxes are due, it's whenever we have the money. We

624
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 3: never label it an emergency. We're just like, well, now

625
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: if physical harm is you know, if there's a fire, okay, yeah,

626
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: that it's an emergency physical harm, but when the financial

627
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: ramification can be handled by cash on hand, we're pretty

628
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 3: resident red and say like, oh, yeah, that was an emergency.

629
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, it really wasn't you know?

630
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: That's true.

631
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: You had the money.

632
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're planning ahead for some of those known

633
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: irregular expenses too, like car tires, right, that's I don't know,

634
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: every fifty sixty thousand miles you're going to need new tires,

635
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: and so that's something you can kind of start to

636
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: plan ahead for. Or a new roof. You know, the

637
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: timeline of a roof is twenty five years, but you

638
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: can see if your roof is starting to get decrepit.

639
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: It's not typically this massive unknown I needed a full

640
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: roof replacement and I had no idea what was coming.

641
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: And some of those things we like to categorize as

642
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: an emergency, but it's usually just a lack of preparation,

643
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: a lack of planning, and Okay, but I want to

644
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: know too. Like one of the things that we get

645
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: questions on a lot, and we try to answer the

646
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: best we can is for folks who are paid irregularly, right,

647
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: folks who work for themselves, they run their own business,

648
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: or they're a contractor, like, how should they think about

649
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: budgeting when they're not sure how much money is coming

650
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: in month to month, whereas the person who gets paid

651
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: every two weeks, it's so much easier to know exactly

652
00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: how much you're going to have on hand.

653
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so never ever, ever budget with money that you

654
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: don't have on hand. Never forecast. Now, if you want

655
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: to dream and kind of plan big and start to say, like, oh,

656
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 3: what would it be like if I landed these three

657
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: other clients and I had sold these three houses or whatever. Yeah,

658
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 3: you want to do that kind of big picture planning

659
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: and dreaming, that's cool, But when it comes to decision

660
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: making about your spending, you only ever talk about money

661
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: that is in the account, not that you're going to

662
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: get that is there already. So for a variable income person,

663
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: there's there's that rule is number one, do not plan

664
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: with money that you do not have in hand. That's

665
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 3: that's the first. The second rule is, because your income

666
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 3: is variable, you have to build more buffer. And that's

667
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: kind of jumping to rule four, but you have to

668
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: essentially build more runway for yourself, just more breathing room

669
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 3: to allow yourself to roll with the fact that it's

670
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 3: it's not you know that it is irregular, and I

671
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: I can I mean, I've been down that road for

672
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: a years, you know, years and years where we had

673
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: a very variable income and it just is what it is.

674
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: So only ever plan with money you have and build

675
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: more buffer than your friend that's paid every two weeks

676
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: by the city, you know, and that's that's just your reality.

677
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: But once you do that and you start looking to

678
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: the future with rule two, and when there are flush months,

679
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: because variable income, a lot of times people are like, oh,

680
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: variable income is tricky because when I don't have any money,

681
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: I have a problem. They never mentioned how they had

682
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: a lot of money two weeks ago, you know, And

683
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: so it is just up and down, up and down.

684
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: And so when you are flush, when you are like,

685
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, honey, we are rich, your first thought

686
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: is let's celebrate. We landed the big deal. Let's celebrate.

687
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: And yet cool do celebrate, but also recognize there are

688
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: going to be some lean times and do a little

689
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 3: bit of like Joseph in Egypt where it's like seven

690
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 3: years feast and famine, and start to look ahead and say, well,

691
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: you know what I'm going to fund half of our

692
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: mortgage for a month from now, and then three months

693
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: later you're like, I'm going to fund the rest of

694
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: our mortgage for next month, and I might fund half

695
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: of our mortgage for two months out. And we'll get

696
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 3: people that are running wine app that are on very

697
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: extremely variable incomes that have funded their kind of their

698
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: core you know, must have fixed expenses. They've funded them three,

699
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: four or five months out because they know that there

700
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: can be some lean times. And I'll just add one

701
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: little thing just to pitch for this. When you are

702
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: operating on a variable income and you've eliminated the variability

703
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: in your stress level tied to it life changing, Well.

704
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: Isn't that the biggest reason to make this plan? Like

705
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: is there anything better?

706
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: Is?

707
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we want people to get their money together. We

708
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: want them to be confident in how they handle their money.

709
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: But the biggest problem when you're not confident with how

710
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: you handle your money and you are living paycheck to

711
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: paycheck is the stress. The rain cloud of stress that

712
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: hangs over you every single day and it's weighing you down.

713
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it makes your decision making in your business

714
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 3: and elsewhere. It really has a negative effect on it.

715
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: You start to be really you react really quickly. You

716
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: take clients that you actually don't want. You don't stop

717
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 3: jobs that you hate that are low profit, because you're

718
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: just taking anything you can. And we want you to

719
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 3: be choosy, We want you to be really selective. We

720
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: want you to be making the best decision for you

721
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: and your whole life. And all of that starts to

722
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 3: kind of be hurt when we're just so stressed out

723
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: and so reactive. So those two rules fix variable income.

724
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: You kind of alluded to this, but we can. We'll

725
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: give you a chance to get back to rules three

726
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: and four. But we kind of touched on how that

727
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: variable income having more cash in hand. That's rule four

728
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: of the four rules, right, Like you're talking about aging

729
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: your money, you're about you're talking about, like you said,

730
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,479
Speaker 1: only spending money that you have on hand, and in

731
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: some ways, like when it comes to that variable income,

732
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: you're kind of like pushing that money off.

733
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: Into the future.

734
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know it's money that you're earmarking for

735
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: future purchases, like you said, must have things like a mortgage,

736
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: paying for food. So we kind of covered forward. What's

737
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: the third rule that you think is important for folks

738
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: to keep in mind in order to have a successful budget.

739
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and remember we're talking about really good decision making.

740
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: It's just a decision making framework to make sure that

741
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 3: spending lines up with priorities. And that's where the magic happens.

742
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: So if we're giving every dollar a job, and we're

743
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: also looking head to future dollars and we're giving those

744
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 3: jobs and we're weighing our priorities. The third rule, it's

745
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: interesting that we have to have it be a rule,

746
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: but we call it rolling with the punches, and it's

747
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: essentially saying, be flexible, change your mind if you need

748
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: to as new information comes in, change the plan. You

749
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 3: would alluded to, like a coach that can really capitalize

750
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: on someone with a lot of great raw talent. And

751
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,959
Speaker 3: there's also the coach that has a really solid game plan.

752
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 3: And then as soon as the ball is hiked or

753
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: the tip off happens or whatever it is, as soon

754
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 3: as that happens, the coach is making adjustments and you're

755
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: seeing how your opponent is reacting to your plan, and

756
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 3: you're reacting to that plan. And it's this big game

757
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: of chess, which is another great example of reacting and

758
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: acting and so we want the plan that you've set

759
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 3: in place, this budget. We want you to be flexible.

760
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,959
Speaker 3: Rigid budgets break, and flexible budgets last a long long time.

761
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 3: Too many people, first of all, they've never budgeted before,

762
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 3: and so they think that they're just going to suddenly

763
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 3: be this like wunder Kin, that's going to be like,

764
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: oh I got this nailed, and you don't. So you

765
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: want to give yourself lots of grace. And when we

766
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 3: talk about being flexible, give yourself the flexibility to say like,

767
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 3: oh I thought I wanted to do this with my money,

768
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 3: but then my friend called me and they said, hey,

769
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 3: should I you know, do you want to come out

770
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 3: to eat? And you're like, yes, I do. So reallocate

771
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 3: some money, shift things around, change your priorities a little bit.

772
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: You're good to go. You know. It's like you're planning

773
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 3: a beach day and then it starts to rain and

774
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: you think vacations don't work. You know, we don't like no,

775
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: it's just that it's raining. So you just make some

776
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: adjustments and keep rolling.

777
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so quick follow up here? Would you reckon

778
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: for folks to revisit their budget every single month and

779
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: make small tweaks. Is this like a quarterly thing? I

780
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: say this because because I recently my wife and I

781
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: had our big end of the year sort of.

782
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: Meeting where we look back at from it.

783
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, we look back at the past year and we

784
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: make some of these larger changes. But yeah, I'd be

785
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: curious to hear your thoughts on making these adjustments, how

786
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: often they should be and to what extent.

787
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: So it depending on how much progress you are trying

788
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: to make and how much room you have between how

789
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 3: much you spend and how much you make. So if

790
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: you have a lot of room in there, then you

791
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 3: don't need to be quite as engaged. You don't need

792
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: to be. It still still may serve you well. But

793
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 3: as people are really trying to transform their finances, maybe

794
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 3: they're trying to get out of debt, they're trying to

795
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 3: read some financial goals, they're maybe not in the same

796
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 3: spot you all are or your listeners are. They need

797
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: to be actively in their budget. I mean a lot

798
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 3: of people like to at least weekly sit down and say, okay,

799
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: where are we at. But when someone is first starting,

800
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 3: just be be in the budget every day. Replace Instagram

801
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: with scrolling through your categories and being like this looks good.

802
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 3: This looks good. And when you're about to spend money,

803
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: you want to look at the app and say, well,

804
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 3: can I spend the money here? And if you can

805
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: spend it joyfully, no guilt, record it or the bank,

806
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 3: maybe I'll send you the transaction we hook up with

807
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 3: the bank or whatever. But at the end of the day,

808
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 3: you want to be actively always kind of reallocating based

809
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 3: on how the spending is shaping up. As you get

810
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: more wiggle room in the budget, this becomes less necessary.

811
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 3: But if you are trying to make real, meaningful progress

812
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: with your finances, which means real behavior change, the more

813
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: frequently you are in the app kind of exercising a

814
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 3: muscle that's been dormant for a long time, the better

815
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 3: results you'll get.

816
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. It's like the longer you've been

817
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: doing anything, the better you get at it, the less

818
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: intense you have to be about focusing on it. I

819
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: want to ask you too. You just mentioned scrolling on Instagram,

820
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: which is a problem for a lot of people. When

821
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: it comes to that could be like a budget buster

822
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: in their lives. The rise of buy now, pay later,

823
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 2: or something that we have talked about a lot on

824
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: the show We hate it targeted ads to start getting

825
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: ads for nice boots now right exactly, they get them,

826
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: go get them exactly. It's like, sick guys, let's get

827
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 2: them to spend some of their money on this stuff.

828
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: So so it feels like everything around us is conspiring,

829
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: leading us towards making worse decisions, towards money outflowing you.

830
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: Do you feel like it's harder for folks to resist

831
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: impulse spending these days? And do you feel like that's

832
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: part of what's leading leading to like an inability for

833
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: folks to budget and to to come up with a

834
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: good plan for themselves.

835
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely is. It's uh And I don't like

836
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 3: framing it as like you're you know, you're a victim

837
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 3: of the the man, the system is out to get you.

838
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, I have to side

839
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: on the on the side of take responsibility, take action.

840
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: You can control your situation. You can change, because anything

841
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 3: else would be a disservice to a person that desires change. Right,

842
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: So you can change. You can do this now. Conspiring though,

843
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 3: I love that word because I mean I'm a profit

844
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 3: seeking business owner just like everyone else and all of

845
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 3: these all this funantilization of everything is for profit, and

846
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: you can say it's good or evil or whatever you want,

847
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 3: but it just is. So knowing that they're kind of

848
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: out to get you does help you maybe feel a

849
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: little bit of motivation to be like, oh no, you

850
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: don't and a little bit of like some gumption that

851
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: might come on. So totally that could be helpful, but

852
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 3: you also want to make sure that when you do

853
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 3: want to spend the money, that you enjoy it. So

854
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want people to associate

855
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: spending as bad. It's not. It's just spending when it's

856
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: out of alignment with what you really want. That's where

857
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: we don't want to have all the misses.

858
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: And again that's where the craft beer equivalent for us,

859
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: that's something we talk about all the time out of here.

860
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: That is something we hammer home, like find the things

861
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: that do move the needle for you, because there are

862
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: there's a lot of deprivation mentality in the personal finance

863
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: space and we don't want to contribute to that.

864
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesse, I'd love to hear your thoughts on lifestyle

865
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: creep as well, because like, as.

866
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 2: Individuals make more money, like I think it's fine.

867
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: To use some of that to like give some folks

868
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: more breathing room to spend to maybe not have to

869
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: revisit their budget quite as often. But it can also

870
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: be a slippery slope, right, And so like, how do

871
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: you want people to react, say, when they get a

872
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: pay raise, when they see their income go up, how

873
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: would you encourage folks going back to a word that

874
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: you've already said, prioritize how it is that they spend.

875
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I had a better answer for this.

876
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: It's no different like if you get double the money

877
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you just got a sweet raise,

878
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: I mean awesome high five, Like, let's this is awesome,

879
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: you know, so you just got to go back and say, okay,

880
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 3: how much you know, what does this money need to

881
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 3: do before I'm paid again? And now you have more money,

882
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: and so you think, well, what does this this money

883
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: need to do before I'm paid again. I don't like

884
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: the phrase lifestyle creep. I used to use it all

885
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: the time. It's one of those things I mentioned early

886
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 3: on where it was like, oh, I know, you should

887
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: just always be spending less, and lifestyle creep makes it

888
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 3: sound like it snuck up on you. It just kind

889
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: of like it sounds creepy, and that seems negative, so

890
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: I don't like anything about it. I think when people

891
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: are talking about lifestyle creep they're really talking about the slow,

892
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 3: almost imperceptible misalignment of spending in priorities. And with that,

893
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm on it, Like, yes, let's get rid

894
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 3: of that. But if you're saying, hey, Jesse, you make

895
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 3: I don't know how much more than when Julie and

896
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: I when we first started wineapp I mean, gosh, I

897
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 3: don't even know, guys, ten twenty thirty times more. I mean,

898
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 3: it's in some insane amount. Are you saying that I

899
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: still should be living in the same basement apartment that

900
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 3: gave us respiratory issues the whole time?

901
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: You know?

902
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 3: And it's like, well, no, no, that's okay, you know,

903
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: but we just don't want.

904
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: Lives to draw the line. Yeah, And it's like, where is.

905
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 3: That line drawn? Well, I'm not going to draw the

906
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: line for your listeners or for you guys, and it's

907
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 3: up to everyone to especially when you're sharing finances, you

908
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: two hand in hand, you know, you grab the sharpie. Actually,

909
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: it's not a sharpie. It's something erasable and you draw

910
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 3: the line together and then you recognize that you're going

911
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: to revisit it regularly every year. I promote the idea

912
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 3: of a of a budget burned down, meaning you just

913
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: you drop all assumptions. It's like, should we have health insurance?

914
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 3: Should we not? You know, of course, get catastrophic health insurance?

915
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 3: Should we rent or should we buy? Should we have

916
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: five roommates or should we get rid of our five roommates?

917
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: Should we get rid of all of our cars? I mean,

918
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 3: just burn down every single assumption to kind of start fresh.

919
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 3: And it's a way to make sure that this lifestyle

920
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: creep or misalignment of priorities in spending hasn't happened to you.

921
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: I mean it will have happened, like it happens to

922
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: all of us all the time.

923
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: Even allows you to rethink what you truly love and

924
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: what you truly want to spend money on, right, because

925
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: we get used to doing things and we continue those

926
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: things in perpetuity, and we might say, wait a second,

927
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: the second car doesn't matter to us anymore, but the

928
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: trip to Europe does, and so I want to strip

929
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 2: that out. And that's a big, massive change, but probably

930
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: in reality the same amount of money that you're going

931
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: to spend in a year. So I think that's a

932
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 2: really really cool concept. Yeah, Jesse, I want to hear

933
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: your updated thoughts on debt because you just talked about

934
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: how some you talked to at the beginning about reading

935
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: Dave Ramsey and how maybe that is influenced review of debt.

936
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: But I wonder if that's changed. We'll get to a

937
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: couple questions on that with Jesse Meekham right after this.

938
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: Right we are back.

939
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: We are talking about just the different ways that you

940
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: can budgets, the different strategies to take, whether or not

941
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: you are using a specific software or not. And Jesse,

942
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: just before the rake, Joel brought up debts.

943
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that.

944
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on credit card specifically,

945
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: right just because I mean, you know you're massively pro budget.

946
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: Does that mean you are anti credit card? What is

947
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: the what's the wide ap approach to credit cards?

948
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll start with the wine ab approach first.

949
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 3: We are agnostic as to the spending instrument you use. Now,

950
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 3: that means that we've done our best in the software

951
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: to create a system where a credit card acts like cash,

952
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 3: because we've talked a lot about finite resources, and a

953
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: credit card lets you not acknowledge finite resources, and people

954
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: can say all they want about well, I do this

955
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 3: and I always pay it off. But at the end

956
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: of the day, you are spending money and it's not

957
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 3: money you have. Now you could say, oh no, it's

958
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 3: in the checking account, but the cash has not left

959
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 3: your system yet, so you just straight up that's how

960
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: it is. Now. What we've done in WINEAP has tried

961
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: to make it act like cash, where if you spend

962
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 3: on the credit card, let's say hundred bucks for groceries,

963
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: no cash left your system, but we take one hundred

964
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 3: dollars from your grocery category and we move it to

965
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 3: your credit card payment category, so that when that you

966
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: know when the credit cards due or whatever. It's on

967
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: auto pay, if you're doing it, well, it just the

968
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 3: cash is there. So we've done our best to say, hey,

969
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 3: this is this is like cash. Treat it like cash. Now.

970
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 3: If someone's coming off of a lot of credit card problems,

971
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 3: I say, just don't use them for a while, like, hey,

972
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: they bit you already, Like let's not let's not mess

973
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: with those for a while. They are more complicated than

974
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: just swiping with a card and having money go out.

975
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: This psychological element, absolutely.

976
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 3: The reconciliation is more complicated. The bank transactions come in

977
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 3: and do weird things. Sometimes a refund will hit and

978
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 3: it hit from it hit two months before, and you'll

979
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:19,959
Speaker 3: see the refund go back, and so you'll be sitting

980
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 3: there with your software like what happened. It makes it

981
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 3: more complicated. That's bit me in the past. So I

982
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: say that all to be like, we're trying to get

983
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 3: the credit card to not be a credit card in

984
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: our system, which is funny, which just tells you how

985
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 3: negative they really are because we're trying to I don't

986
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 3: know whatever. The opposite of negate is this negative thing.

987
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: And that's just it's telling my personal experiment this year,

988
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 3: and this is this is early days. But I didn't

989
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 3: cut our credit card or whatever. I threw it in

990
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 3: a drawer, but I moved all of our spending off

991
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 3: of what was basically our primary spending card for Julie

992
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 3: and I and we are using our debit cards. My theory,

993
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: my theory, and I don't care about the rewards or

994
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: the points like there's one way to tell. This is

995
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: a little bit of a diversion. There's one way to

996
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 3: tell if banks like the rewards or don't like the rewards,

997
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: and it's that they keep pushing the rewards.

998
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: So it's the fact that they exist, they.

999
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 3: Exist, they exist, and that banks are wildly profitable institutions.

1000
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 3: So you can say, oh, Jesse, I'm not a sucker.

1001
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 3: I don't pay those rewards, but they still get paid

1002
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: every time you swipe. Every time you swipe, a bank

1003
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 3: get a banker gets its wings or whatever. However that

1004
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 3: goes right. So when when you swipe, you are giving

1005
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 3: the bank money because they get a cut. They get

1006
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 3: a little cut. And there are a few people that

1007
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 3: there's a processor that gets a cut, there's a gateway

1008
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 3: that gets a cut, and there's a bank that gets

1009
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 3: a cut in somebody. There's another bank that gets a cut,

1010
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: like the issuer, and then the holder. There's weird words

1011
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 3: for it, but like so many people have their fingers

1012
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 3: in this pie. That's these transaction fees that we all

1013
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 3: pay that the merchant pays on our behalf, that we

1014
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: all end up paying because the merchant's paying it. Right,

1015
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 3: if you assume that you're in a fairly competitive market,

1016
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 3: so in that instance, we are paying it. So when

1017
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 3: someone says, well I get one percent back, well, the

1018
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 3: bank got more than one percent for you swiping, so

1019
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 3: there's still totally okay with this. So that's one way

1020
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 3: to view it, is just like, oh, maybe that the

1021
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 3: banks are okay with this, not just okay, but that

1022
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 3: they love it. So that's one thing. The other thing

1023
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 3: you could do is say, well, who pays for all

1024
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: of these rewards? If it's not me, well, it's someone

1025
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 3: that's paying late fees and interest, And so you might

1026
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 3: approach it from an altruistic sense, which, honestly, to be

1027
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 3: totally frank, it doesn't like move me. I'm necessarily like,

1028
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 3: I'm going to do this because I don't want someone

1029
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 3: else to have to pay for my reward. It doesn't.

1030
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 3: But I know a lot of people that for whom

1031
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 3: that really is the moving factor, and they just say,

1032
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 3: you know, altruistically, I don't want someone else that's struggling

1033
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 3: to be paying my reward fees. Also an interesting view.

1034
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 3: There's a third view that I'm curious about for my

1035
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 3: year of experiment, and that is is we've always talked

1036
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 3: about how a credit card is handled in wine app

1037
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,959
Speaker 3: as if it's a debit card, as if it's just cash,

1038
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 3: so we kind of feel good about it. And so

1039
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: we're like, whenever you want something, you just will adjust

1040
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 3: the budget to make sure it happens. And if you're

1041
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: using a credit card or not, it's fine, but you're

1042
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: always kind of saying, I want something, I make the

1043
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 3: budget allow me to have that thing done. My theory

1044
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 3: is that the credit card specifically might be upstream and

1045
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 3: be actually affecting our wants. And this is early for me,

1046
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: so I'm gonna I'm putting myself out there in this way,

1047
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: not fully formed thoughts. But if the credit card, if

1048
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 3: the use of a credit card actually affects your wants

1049
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: center like your dopamine hit center, and there's good research

1050
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 3: to say that it does, then it's actually affecting your wants,

1051
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 3: and then you're forcing your plan to adjust to this

1052
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: newly influenced want that came about because of credit card usage.

1053
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: So man, that's like another level deeper right there.

1054
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I'm just curious about it. So I'll

1055
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: be back next year or whatever, and I'll let you

1056
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,479
Speaker 3: guys know that I'm I'm like filthy rich now because

1057
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 3: I don't use it. You just you know that's not

1058
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 3: gonna be the case. But I will say one other

1059
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: one other win is it's far simpler. It's just far simpler.

1060
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 3: Just to have one instrument that you use. Fraud protection

1061
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 3: on debit cards is as good as it's ever been,

1062
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 3: So that one really doesn't hold water anymore, like it

1063
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 3: did you know fifteen years ago?

1064
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know the points guy, if he was to

1065
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: talk to you, Jesse, he'd be like, I guess you

1066
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:22,959
Speaker 2: just don't want that for your trip to Heati broh,

1067
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: Like what's your problem?

1068
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 3: You are telling, Well, you're talking to a guy that

1069
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: has literally millions of points, because because we spend in

1070
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 3: the business where we know in business you don't even

1071
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 3: you can't even have corporate spending without it being on

1072
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 3: a some kind of a credit system. And so even

1073
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 3: if you try and avoid it, you you almost can't.

1074
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 3: It's like built into all of your corporate spending. Employees

1075
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 3: have cards and things. So yeah, you're talking to a

1076
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 3: guy that has loads of points, and you know, does

1077
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 3: it make us spend more on the business?

1078
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: Man?

1079
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 3: I sure hope not, because those millions of miles are

1080
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 3: way more expensive than being able to spend less. The

1081
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 3: fact that the banks love it so much. That's as

1082
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 3: my eighth grade you know, as my eighth grade daughter

1083
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: would say, that sounds a little sus you know, Yeah,

1084
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 3: no it does.

1085
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I totally get where you're coming from. And I

1086
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 2: think it is an interesting thing to consider. And I

1087
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: think you make some good points, and it's worth thinking

1088
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 2: about whether or not the we're being short sighted in

1089
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: credit card usage, and I think I think some people,

1090
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people probably are. But I want to

1091
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: know too about maybe your take on like a bigger

1092
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: debt question, like good debt versus bad debt. Some people

1093
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 2: would say, we've had, for instance, Michelle Singletary, who writes

1094
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 2: for the Washington Post too we respect a ton who's

1095
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: been writing about personal finance for decades, and she says

1096
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: there is no such thing as good debt. And then

1097
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: other people would say, oh, my gosh, you have a

1098
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: mortgage at two and a half percent and inflation's you know,

1099
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: running hot at seven percent right now, you better just

1100
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: hold onto that thing. That thing's good for you. Do

1101
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 2: you have a take on.

1102
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: That, Yeah, it's more of a personal take. I paid

1103
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 3: off my mortgage as fast as I could when I

1104
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: when we bought our first house, and then we sold

1105
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 3: that house and we bought a more expensive house, and

1106
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,320
Speaker 3: I had a mortgage on that for a few years

1107
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: and paid that. I just wanted to pay it off

1108
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 3: as fast as I could, So then I was sitting

1109
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 3: mortgage free with the first one. So I kind of

1110
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 3: jumped ahead and we bought a town home as like

1111
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 3: a rental, and so I had a I put fifty

1112
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 3: percent down. This was back when real estate didn't cost

1113
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: you like your firstborn. This is like twenty twelve or

1114
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 3: something like that, and so I got a mortgage on that,

1115
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 3: and it was kind of my own. It was our

1116
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 3: only mortgage. And then I bought another town home and

1117
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 3: I ended up with with four townhomes that were all

1118
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 3: over this period of years with very modest mortgages, totally

1119
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 3: cash flowing. At the end of the day, after we'd

1120
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 3: paid off our personal you know, our second home that

1121
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: we had bought again, I still ended up just paying

1122
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 3: off those, even the real estate. So I just don't

1123
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 3: want to be stressed like I and that's that it's

1124
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 3: worth so much to me, and I do benefit from

1125
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 3: a business that's profitable, and so it's not like I'm

1126
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 3: trying to make real estate my livelihood where I'm really like,

1127
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 3: I got to eke out financial, real financial return from this.

1128
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 3: And so in that instance, I can be more hand

1129
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 3: wavy about the financial upside to leverage. But push comes

1130
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 3: to shove as far as personal goes, I just I've

1131
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 3: never liked it. I feel like it it messes with

1132
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: your decision making in a real way and not in

1133
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 3: a good way. And so I like the idea of

1134
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: paying cash for stuff, saving up for things. And I've

1135
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 3: just never seen anyone say, you know, gosh, I really

1136
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 3: wish I were in more debt. I just never hear

1137
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 3: anyone drop that line. So I guess I agree with

1138
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 3: your friend of the Washington Post. I don't really think

1139
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 3: that there's good debt. I think if a lot of

1140
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 3: people could own their home free and clear, they absolutely would,

1141
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 3: regardless of how crazy low, artificially low, like crazy low,

1142
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 3: those interest rates are. And that's that in and of itself,

1143
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 3: is a financial camara, almost how low they've been for

1144
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, it's like our age that you know, I'm

1145
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 3: guessing we're all about the same age. We think it's

1146
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 3: normal to be at that rate, you know, two, three, four,

1147
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 3: And that's nothing, that's nothing normal about that. It's just

1148
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 3: that it's always known for the last twenty years.

1149
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been talking about Oh I saw an article

1150
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: today interest rates are so high and it's curbing the

1151
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: housing market. It's like they're not high historically. They're high

1152
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 2: compared to what we've experienced lately over the past, you know,

1153
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: a few years, but they're not historically high. They're they're

1154
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: still pretty low. Yeah.

1155
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

1156
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 1: And we were talking about, you know, winnapp specifically, the

1157
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: software that you founded. How can folks learn more about

1158
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: winnap And I'm actually curious too, y'all specifically you have

1159
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: a thirty four day free trial, So A where can

1160
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: folks learn about wynapp? And b why why is it

1161
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: a thirty four day trial?

1162
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they can learn about it at winam dot

1163
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 3: com and take classes, jump on YouTube, watch the videos.

1164
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 3: It's a different it's a really different way of thinking

1165
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 3: about money. So I would hope that they wouldn't just

1166
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 3: be like, oh, I used to use quickened, so I'll

1167
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 3: just replace it like it's different, And so you really

1168
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 3: want to make sure you see where the thinking is

1169
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 3: coming from and then look at how the tool integrates

1170
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 3: with that. As far as the thirty four day trial,

1171
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 3: we want you to see how it works with a

1172
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 3: month rolling over. So no matter when you start, if

1173
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 3: with a thirty four day trial, you'll always have a

1174
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 3: month plus a little to kind of see like, oh

1175
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 3: I set aside money this month, that money is available

1176
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 3: next month, and they can start to see that rule

1177
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 3: too in action and things starting to you know, cash

1178
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 3: starting to build up. It's liberating for people to see that.

1179
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, thirty four day trial all day long helps

1180
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: people kind of make that early connection on what it's

1181
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 3: going to be like to save up for stuff, you know,

1182
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 3: like save now, buy later instead of whatever we have.

1183
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, let's make that a trend. Let's let that

1184
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 2: catch on seriously. And it's always free for students too.

1185
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 3: Write yeah, we give a free year for students, so okay,

1186
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 3: graduate student, high school student. And also we launched wine

1187
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 3: app together. So if you're listening to this and and

1188
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 3: you're like, oh man, this would be great for me,

1189
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 3: but also for like my teenage kid, you can buy

1190
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 3: you know, you buy subscription. It's one hundred bucks a year,

1191
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 3: so it's it's certainly reasonable. But then you can have

1192
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 3: I think up to five other people and we intend

1193
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 3: for this to be like family, you know, close family,

1194
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 3: but you could put your kids on it. You don't

1195
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 3: have to pay an extra subscription fee things like that.

1196
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 3: Once your kid flies the nest, which you hope happens,

1197
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 3: they get the free year and then they can go

1198
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: off on their way. So honestly, we really want the

1199
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 3: kids to be hooked on this like we wanted to

1200
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: just to think, oh, yeah, this is how you do money.

1201
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 3: You save up for stuff, you evaluate your priorities, you

1202
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 3: spend guilt free. We want to check all those boxes

1203
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: for these kids.

1204
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: I love it. Jesse, thank you so much for joining

1205
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 2: us on the show today. Man. We really appreciated it.

1206
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate it all right, Joel.

1207
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: What a great conversation man, talking about something that is

1208
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 1: a fundamental building block when it comes to your personal finances.

1209
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: Talking with Jesse about budgeting, but specifically why NAB software

1210
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: that he pioneered, that he founded. What was your big

1211
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 1: takeaway from our conversation with him today.

1212
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 2: Well, one, I feel like you love budgets more than

1213
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: you love me. That's your best friend, and so I

1214
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 2: feel like this was probably like your favorite episode and everything.

1215
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 2: Everything he said. I was just like, yes, I can

1216
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: see over there, you're just like you're jeweling a little

1217
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 2: bit as he talked, Yeah, you're really into it. So no,

1218
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,399
Speaker 2: I really appreciate every all the he was diving into,

1219
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 2: like the whole time, like the time space, money continue

1220
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: very much nerding out. It's one of those things I

1221
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: was going to say, this is one of those things

1222
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: that it's hard for us to conceptualize, but software can

1223
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 2: help us actually understand how that's working and then make

1224
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 2: plans accordingly. Sure, but like our feeble human brains have

1225
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 2: a hard time with that. But the software actually really

1226
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 2: I think helps drive that home for people, which is

1227
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: something we need to wrap our minds around if we're

1228
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 2: gonna you know, save and invest effectively. But I think

1229
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: my big takeaway from this combo with nugget Yeah, he said,

1230
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 2: knowing that you'll run out of money helps crystallize your

1231
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 2: priorities and the realities that we're all going to run

1232
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 2: out of money at some point depends on how quickly,

1233
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: depends on how much money we're making and how fast

1234
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 2: it's going out. But knowing that it's going to run

1235
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 2: out is going to help you crystallize those priorities, and

1236
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: so what is it that is most important to you?

1237
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 2: It's all about trade offs, right, And a lot of

1238
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,320
Speaker 2: people look at our family and they're like, you guys,

1239
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 2: you guys are like, make enough money to afford two

1240
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 2: nice cars, what do you do? I'm driving one old,

1241
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: beat up junkie minivan. It's like, we just don't care.

1242
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 2: But knowing that it's going to run out helps us

1243
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 2: crystallize our priorities, and our priorities lie elsewhere. Someone on

1244
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 2: Twitter today said, what if you just got a million dollars,

1245
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 2: which one thing you would not upgrade? What's one thing

1246
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: you would not spend more money on? And I'm like,

1247
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 2: my car, I just don't care enough and I would

1248
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: rather see that money go elsewhere. You think about the Rivian,

1249
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: but you wouldn't pull the truck. Oh, I think about it.

1250
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 2: I'd lustily look at pictures on the internet, but then

1251
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 2: after that I would say no. And so I just

1252
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: think that's really important for you to know because we

1253
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 2: all everybody has limits, right, and there's only so many

1254
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: yachts that Jeff Bezos can even buy. Well that's probably

1255
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: bad example, but like, we all are going to run

1256
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 2: out at some point, and so let that crystallize in

1257
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: your mind the pose of ways that you can use

1258
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,439
Speaker 2: your budget to funnel money towards the areas it really matter.

1259
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: Nice man, I like that mine has to do with

1260
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: how it is you spend as well. He was basically

1261
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: at some point earlier. I don't know his exact words,

1262
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: but he said that essentially, you shouldn't have any spending.

1263
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: On your books that you feel guilty about.

1264
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: Essentially, everything that you spend money on, it should be

1265
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: something that you are maybe not necessarily excited about, but

1266
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be something that you feel bad for doing.

1267
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: And that's because hopefully you have.

1268
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: Aligned how it is that you are spending your money

1269
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: with the ways that you want to spend your money.

1270
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: And so if there are ways that you don't want

1271
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: to spend your money, well certainly it could have arisen

1272
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: from previous decisions that you made, maybe that were poor decisions.

1273
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: So if you're making like credit card payments or payments

1274
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: towards something that you have changed your mind on, well

1275
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: that might be a case where things aren't aligned, but

1276
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: that's because you made a you know, you made a

1277
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: poor decision in the past about pushing those expenses into

1278
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: the future.

1279
00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:58,919
Speaker 2: As opposed to push all done. Push.

1280
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely supposed to pushing your money into the future.

1281
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think if you do have something in

1282
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: your life that you are spending on every single month,

1283
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: and not only is it not providing you you joy

1284
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: and it's not providing you value, but you feel like

1285
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: it's something that like you have some sense of guilt

1286
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: associated with that, I would encourage folks out there to

1287
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: stop and to think why is it that you feel

1288
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: that way, because it can It might either be something

1289
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: super simple, It could be a practical reason. Is that,

1290
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: oh well this is a category maybe that we shouldn't

1291
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: be spending this money in this way. And so not

1292
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: only is it, can it be fixed in a very

1293
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: practical way and that you just change how it is

1294
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: that you're spending But maybe it could lead to you

1295
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: taking some time to self reflect and to think, why

1296
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: is it that I don't you know that I don't

1297
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 1: feel great about how it is I'm spending my.

1298
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: Money in this way.

1299
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: I think it could potentially lead to change in both areas.

1300
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:48,919
Speaker 1: But I like that that you should not have any

1301
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: spending on your books that you feel guilty but I

1302
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: love too.

1303
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: When you talked about the budget burned down and it's

1304
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: this way to like completely reassess everything, because you might

1305
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: have just listened in your like big old reset. There's

1306
00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff that I really want to do

1307
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: that I can't actually afford. But I got all these

1308
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 2: other old expenses laying around in my life, and if

1309
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: I could just cut a couple of those out, then

1310
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 2: maybe I could actually spend more money, money more freely

1311
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: on the things that I really actually care about. And

1312
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 2: so you might have three cars in your driveway and

1313
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 2: you're like, listen and budget burned down. I'm gonna sell

1314
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: one of them and I'm gonna rent the other one

1315
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 2: out on tour. What if we only had one? Yeah,

1316
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: wait a minute, those are the cars. Yeah, But if

1317
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: you just there is that sort of thing that happens

1318
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: to all of us, inertia bias. We start, we've done something,

1319
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 2: we kind of keep it going in perpetuity. But the

1320
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 2: budget burned down allows you to reassess everything, and I

1321
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 2: think that that can be helpful. You might not want

1322
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 2: to change a bunch of stuff, but you might you

1323
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: might want to change a lot this year, so it's

1324
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 2: worth of thinking about. All right, let's get back to

1325
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 2: to the beer that we had on this this episode.

1326
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 2: This was Igneous IPA by Hutton and Smith. Or your

1327
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 2: thoughts on this one? It's really good, man. This is

1328
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 2: a dry hopped IPA.

1329
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: These guys are out of Chattanooga, and.

1330
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was tasty. It was dry hopped.

1331
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: Oftentimes you expect some of those I don't know, I

1332
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: guess I saw dry hopped, and I saw the color

1333
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 1: of the cannon.

1334
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 2: I was expecting like a New England like dry hot beer.

1335
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: But it definitely was kind of more in that traditional

1336
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: IPA vests and it had some some of those sharper

1337
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: notes that you get from a dry hot beer.

1338
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: A little more piny, a little more bitter.

1339
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but not like over the top with like

1340
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: that West Coast resin. It's still had some sweetness that

1341
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 1: still had a multi backbone to it as well.

1342
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: But definitely enjoyed it. What were your thoughts? Yeah on

1343
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 2: this one? Similar Basically it tasted really like a classic IPA.

1344
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 2: It reminded me of like beer some of those olds

1345
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 2: here and about it I pas that are just yeah, classics,

1346
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: but they don't make them like that very much anymore.

1347
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 2: Like the tendency is toward the juicy haze bombs, and

1348
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: so this one has that more those like more piny,

1349
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 2: traditional bitter characteristics torpedo a little bit, but not over

1350
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 2: the top either. So yeah, I liked it. I liked it.

1351
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 2: It's and it's nice to have a change up in

1352
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 2: I pas because we do drink so many of those

1353
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 2: orange juice IPAs, Yeah, big juicy one, So it's fun

1354
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 2: to try something, you know, a little more old school.

1355
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, Well, we'll make sure to link to

1356
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: whyab where you can learn more about you need to

1357
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: budget there budgeting software. You can find that link up

1358
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: in our show notes at howdomoney dot com. Joel, that's

1359
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: going to be it for this episode, Buddy, until next time,

1360
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 1: best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,