WEBVTT - Remote Music Collaboration Online (in real time) is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:23.636 Bushkim, this is solvable. I'm Malcolm Glabo. Occasionally we would 0:00:23.636 --> 0:00:25.476 get to go and break out rooms on Zoom and 0:00:25.876 --> 0:00:29.716 just discuss our feelings about what's happening at the time, 0:00:30.276 --> 0:00:34.716 and when the lockdown began, we were all devastated because 0:00:34.756 --> 0:00:37.916 singing was our life. Sam is twelve years old and 0:00:38.036 --> 0:00:41.756 like many kids, he's struggling with the restrictions COVID nineteen 0:00:41.796 --> 0:00:44.196 has imposed on his life. There's a lot of talking 0:00:44.276 --> 0:00:47.836 to news about the impact of COVID on classroom education, 0:00:48.476 --> 0:00:52.396 but for Sam and his friends, what they're missing is 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:55.916 after school. Ragotzi was like a sanctuary to go to 0:00:56.036 --> 0:00:58.836 at the end of the school day. Rogatsi is a 0:00:58.876 --> 0:01:02.476 boy's choir based in California. Sam's been singing in the 0:01:02.516 --> 0:01:06.196 group for seven years. In pre COVID times, he would 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:10.036 rehearse twice a week for several hours each day, but 0:01:10.116 --> 0:01:12.636 all of that came to a halt when COVID arrived 0:01:12.676 --> 0:01:16.596 in the US. The choir was basically stuck. If you've 0:01:16.636 --> 0:01:19.236 ever tried to sing something like happy Birthday during a 0:01:19.316 --> 0:01:22.756 zoom meeting, you know what I'm talking about. Making music 0:01:22.876 --> 0:01:26.636 sync up with other people in real time over the Internet. 0:01:27.116 --> 0:01:31.436 Is really tough. The connectivity delays, what they call latency, 0:01:31.876 --> 0:01:36.076 can be pretty awkward. Give us the technical explanation of 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:40.916 the problem your son was facing. It's rooted in latency. Fundamentally, 0:01:41.716 --> 0:01:44.356 the time that it takes the sound you make to 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:48.276 reach another musician that you're performing with, you need to 0:01:48.316 --> 0:01:51.716 have a latency of about less than twenty five milliseconds. 0:01:52.156 --> 0:01:54.956 Otherwise the sense of the pulse or the beat of 0:01:54.956 --> 0:01:59.236 the music is just lost across those musicians. Mike Dickie 0:01:59.396 --> 0:02:02.236 is a software engineer, and after months of seeing his 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:05.916 son Sam bummed out about not singing, he realized he 0:02:05.956 --> 0:02:09.316 could do something about it now for far less than 0:02:09.356 --> 0:02:12.316 the cost of a year of private music lessons. Dickie 0:02:12.436 --> 0:02:15.836 created a tool that allows groups of musicians to make 0:02:15.916 --> 0:02:20.556 music online. And it might be just the beginning. So 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:24.236 we could have real time cheering and fan reaction in 0:02:24.236 --> 0:02:28.156 a basketball game. Yeah. Absolutely, Performing in rehearsing with others 0:02:28.156 --> 0:02:31.356 in real time is really difficult or even impossible for 0:02:31.396 --> 0:02:39.036 many people. But this problem is solvable. I talked with 0:02:39.076 --> 0:02:42.956 Mike Dickie about Virtual Studio. It's a low cost device 0:02:43.236 --> 0:02:46.076 that works with the open source tool called jack Trip 0:02:46.596 --> 0:02:51.716 to make remote music collaboration possible in real time. Here 0:02:51.796 --> 0:02:55.276 is our conversation. Mike tell me about the first time 0:02:55.316 --> 0:02:59.476 this that Rigazzi rehearse using virtual studio. What was that like? 0:02:59.796 --> 0:03:04.236 At first? It was a bit terrifying progress out let's 0:03:04.276 --> 0:03:12.996 progress down, okay, And I thought of all the things 0:03:13.036 --> 0:03:15.676 that could go wrong, And I knew that this was 0:03:15.716 --> 0:03:19.076 all very new and untested, And I was also worried 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:21.996 just of what people would think of me and my 0:03:22.116 --> 0:03:26.116 son if this was a huge disaster. But when we 0:03:26.156 --> 0:03:29.836 when we started getting people online and it started to work, 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:45.996 and the boys started to sing right. It was the 0:03:46.036 --> 0:03:48.156 first time they were singing together in a long time, 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:53.076 and I could see through the zoom the faces on 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:55.356 the different boys start to light up. I could see 0:03:55.396 --> 0:03:57.396 the smiles, I could see it in their eyes, and 0:03:57.556 --> 0:04:00.556 I could see it in the director's eyes, thinking, Hey, 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:10.836 this actually is working. That experience of of seeing people 0:04:11.036 --> 0:04:17.196 and having them so happy and having their experience with 0:04:17.236 --> 0:04:20.796 others impact their lives, that's really what led me to 0:04:20.836 --> 0:04:23.396 put more and more time into this and ultimately to 0:04:23.876 --> 0:04:27.076 devote all my time towards it. Prior to the lockdown, 0:04:27.716 --> 0:04:30.276 people must have thought about this problem and tried to 0:04:30.276 --> 0:04:33.636 solve it. Were there existing technical solutions to the problem 0:04:33.636 --> 0:04:38.916 of how to sing remotely? There were, thankfully. I looked 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:42.556 at several of them when I started out, and I 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:46.756 came across this small project from out of Stanford University 0:04:46.836 --> 0:04:50.356 called jack Trip, which is an open source technology that 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:53.316 was developed over a year ago by the Computer Music Department. 0:04:54.076 --> 0:04:57.876 It seemed very promising. It had a high quality, lossless audio, 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:01.756 it focused on low latency and over the Internet, and 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:04.636 there were a lot of people already using it. The 0:05:05.036 --> 0:05:07.956 challenge that I found with that is that it was 0:05:08.036 --> 0:05:10.556 a command line tool. You had to open a terminal 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:13.436 on your computer. In many cases, you had to build 0:05:13.436 --> 0:05:15.636 it from the source code, the C plus plus source code, 0:05:16.156 --> 0:05:18.796 and then you had to know the command lines and 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:21.236 figure out the right command line options in order to 0:05:21.316 --> 0:05:24.316 use it with other people. That's great for somebody who's 0:05:24.396 --> 0:05:28.076 very technically oriented, but in my son's chorus, I was 0:05:28.116 --> 0:05:30.316 trying to figure out, how can we roll this out 0:05:30.596 --> 0:05:33.996 to a large number of young boys that don't have 0:05:34.036 --> 0:05:37.716 this advanced technical expertise. And it was actually a challenge 0:05:37.756 --> 0:05:40.836 that I thought I was well suited for because I 0:05:40.916 --> 0:05:44.076 understood the technical side, and I also had the product 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:47.396 background in order to try to make something that was 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:51.516 fairly difficult to use fairly easy for most of the 0:05:51.516 --> 0:05:54.956 people that were out there. So we're used to is 0:05:54.996 --> 0:06:00.956 it an in normal sonic collaboration, a conversation with people singing, 0:06:01.356 --> 0:06:05.316 We're already used to a degree of latency. We've incorporated 0:06:05.476 --> 0:06:09.636 that into our definition of normal. You don't have to 0:06:09.636 --> 0:06:11.396 you don't have to take latency to zero to make 0:06:11.396 --> 0:06:13.596 it sound normal. In other words, yes, it's all about 0:06:13.636 --> 0:06:18.596 tricking your brain. Sound travels at roughly one foot per millisecond, 0:06:19.156 --> 0:06:22.196 and so if you're ten feet away from someone, it 0:06:22.236 --> 0:06:25.236 takes you ten milliseconds to actually hear something that they 0:06:25.276 --> 0:06:27.316 say or a note that they play on their instrument. 0:06:27.916 --> 0:06:32.076 And our brains have evolved to adapt to that. And 0:06:32.116 --> 0:06:34.756 when we play music with a group, our brains are 0:06:34.836 --> 0:06:37.796 are used to having people that are a certain distance away. 0:06:38.196 --> 0:06:40.956 Once they get further than twenty five feet away from you, 0:06:40.996 --> 0:06:42.916 it becomes really hard for you to stay in sync 0:06:42.956 --> 0:06:46.436 with them. So the trick here with these software solutions 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:51.636 is simply to get under that twenty five threshold with 0:06:51.756 --> 0:06:54.756 the way that the sound is being transmitted exactly, and 0:06:55.276 --> 0:06:58.036 there's many steps along that path. When you think about it, 0:06:58.076 --> 0:07:00.676 there's there's the path from let's say you're singing. There's 0:07:00.716 --> 0:07:04.556 the path from your voice your vocal chords to the microphone. 0:07:04.956 --> 0:07:07.476 Then there's the path from the microphone to your computer 0:07:07.596 --> 0:07:10.956 or whatever audio device you're using. There's the process of 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:14.716 digitizing that audio, turning it from an analog sound into 0:07:14.956 --> 0:07:18.996 digital samples that can be buffered and transmitted electronically. And 0:07:19.036 --> 0:07:21.556 then there's the process of sending all that data from 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:25.356 your computer to somebody else's computer and then essentially reversing 0:07:25.356 --> 0:07:27.836 the process in order to get into the headphones that 0:07:27.876 --> 0:07:30.636 someone's listening to you on. And each of those steps 0:07:30.676 --> 0:07:34.956 adds latency, and the key is just minimizing the latency 0:07:35.396 --> 0:07:38.076 of as many of those steps as possible along the way. 0:07:38.636 --> 0:07:43.476 Can you give a layperson's explanation of what we mean 0:07:43.516 --> 0:07:46.476 when we talk about buffer size? Sure? Buffer size is 0:07:46.556 --> 0:07:49.716 similar to if you're a shipping company and you're trying 0:07:49.716 --> 0:07:52.476 to send something from China to the United States. You 0:07:52.556 --> 0:07:55.436 have to load all of these containers onto a ship 0:07:55.876 --> 0:07:59.316 and then send that ship across the ocean to its 0:07:59.356 --> 0:08:03.356 destination port. All those containers then get unloaded and delivered 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:05.916 to someone else. So each of those containers could be 0:08:05.916 --> 0:08:09.516 considered a buffer. The ship itself could also be considered buffer. 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:12.436 So you're kind of grouping things into these larger buckets 0:08:12.436 --> 0:08:16.956 and then transmitting them from one location to another. Describe 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:20.116 virtual studio to make what is this thing that you 0:08:20.196 --> 0:08:24.476 have created? So the device, it's basically using a Raspberry 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:28.516 Pie microcomputer or a single board computer that fits in 0:08:28.556 --> 0:08:31.836 the palm of your hand, and that this board only 0:08:31.876 --> 0:08:35.276 costs about thirty five dollars. And so I combine that 0:08:35.876 --> 0:08:39.716 with a sound card from a company called hi Fiberry, 0:08:40.396 --> 0:08:44.236 which is extremely low latency, and it plugs directly into 0:08:44.276 --> 0:08:46.836 this single board computer, so you don't have to go 0:08:46.956 --> 0:08:50.956 through a USB bus, which by itself adds latency. By 0:08:50.996 --> 0:08:53.916 the way, it just talks directly to the CPU and 0:08:53.996 --> 0:08:57.796 other components on that board, and that allows it to 0:08:57.836 --> 0:09:00.956 achieve a latency as low as about one millisecond. But 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:02.716 when I realized that I could do that, and I 0:09:02.796 --> 0:09:08.076 tested it and measured it and everything else, then I realized, hey, 0:09:08.116 --> 0:09:10.636 this is really possible. We can really do something with this. 0:09:11.596 --> 0:09:13.676 Wait back up for a moment. So there is this 0:09:14.236 --> 0:09:17.436 thing Jack Trip, which comes out of Stanford. How do 0:09:17.516 --> 0:09:23.716 they without without getting too swallowed up in the technical 0:09:24.076 --> 0:09:27.636 but explain to a computer dummy like me, how they 0:09:27.756 --> 0:09:30.596 propose to solve this latency problem. So you have this, 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:34.156 you have this lag How does jack trip solve that problem? 0:09:34.636 --> 0:09:37.716 There's really no rocket science to it. What jack trip 0:09:37.756 --> 0:09:40.876 does is it just tries to take the audio packets, 0:09:40.916 --> 0:09:43.916 to extract them from the chip sets that are in 0:09:43.956 --> 0:09:47.196 your sound card, and transmit them over the internet as 0:09:47.556 --> 0:09:50.876 quickly and as efficiently as possible. A large part of 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:54.356 that is just having small buffer sizes, so jack Trip 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:58.956 effectively just tries to minimize the overhead of transmitting this 0:09:59.076 --> 0:10:02.116 data over the networks. How long did it take you 0:10:02.996 --> 0:10:06.156 to build the first kind of prototype of this? Building 0:10:06.196 --> 0:10:09.556 the Raspberry Pie itself was fairly easy. It just took 0:10:09.596 --> 0:10:12.716 a few days to convert that over and I had 0:10:12.836 --> 0:10:15.196 I had a few people helping test things with me, 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:18.756 And I remember the first time I tested it myself, 0:10:18.876 --> 0:10:21.796 just as a loop back to the server and back 0:10:21.836 --> 0:10:24.276 to hear myself, and I was certain I did something 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:28.076 wrong because it was instantaneous, or at least to me 0:10:28.196 --> 0:10:31.636 it sounded instantaneous, and I thought, now this can't possibly 0:10:31.716 --> 0:10:35.156 be sending. But Yeah. The more I dug into it, 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:37.596 the more I convinced myself that this was really happening. 0:10:37.676 --> 0:10:40.076 Were you do you remember what were you singing or speaking? 0:10:40.116 --> 0:10:42.236 Do you remember why I can't sing? You don't want 0:10:42.236 --> 0:10:46.756 to hear me sing? No, I was just I was 0:10:46.876 --> 0:10:49.796 whistling a lot. For usually I whistled from my test. 0:10:49.876 --> 0:10:52.956 Sometimes I do try to sing if I know nobody's 0:10:52.996 --> 0:10:55.556 listening or in the room. If you do try to sing, 0:10:55.596 --> 0:10:57.596 what do you try to sing? I sing about my dog? 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:03.076 This is like didn't what is it that Alexander Graham 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:05.956 Bell said to his assistant on the first telephone transmission. 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:09.556 Was it like, you know, doctor Watson, come quick or 0:11:09.556 --> 0:11:12.076 something like that? This is like up there with that? 0:11:14.276 --> 0:11:16.276 And when was that when you did that first test 0:11:16.316 --> 0:11:18.316 and you couldn't believe it? When was that? That was 0:11:18.316 --> 0:11:22.436 probably in May? Oh wow, this whole thing went really quickly. Yeah. Yeah. 0:11:22.476 --> 0:11:26.716 We shut things down here in California in mid March, 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:31.436 late March, and I started out just, you know, some evenings, 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:33.356 I would look at what's out there and spend a 0:11:33.356 --> 0:11:35.756 little time here and there, And the amount of time 0:11:35.796 --> 0:11:40.076 I spent grew more and more every week, until finally 0:11:40.116 --> 0:11:42.956 I started really putting things together and building things and 0:11:42.996 --> 0:11:47.196 testing things by may so walk me through how Rigazzi 0:11:47.356 --> 0:11:50.796 does their rehearsals. Now, how do you put this into 0:11:50.916 --> 0:11:56.156 practical service? Well, interestingly, Rigassi still starts all of their 0:11:56.196 --> 0:11:59.276 rehearsals with Zoom, and we still use that as a 0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:03.836 tool to carry the video and connect everyone visually with 0:12:03.836 --> 0:12:08.116 one another. And then they in parallel to running Zoom, 0:12:08.236 --> 0:12:11.916 they run Jack and they use jack trip for the audio. 0:12:12.076 --> 0:12:15.476 And that means that the video is very heavily delayed 0:12:15.516 --> 0:12:17.836 compared to the audio. Takes a lot longer for you 0:12:17.876 --> 0:12:21.636 to see something versus when you hear it. And one 0:12:21.636 --> 0:12:24.396 of the downsides of that is that conducting, we've learned, 0:12:24.516 --> 0:12:28.556 is just not possible. You can't conduct visually, in particular 0:12:28.596 --> 0:12:31.876 with the gesticulations that you would normally see a conductor 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:37.236 doing throughout a performance. So what the conductors have done 0:12:37.276 --> 0:12:40.916 and learned over time is that they have started conducting 0:12:41.236 --> 0:12:45.476 through audio. They give audio cues throughout a performance to 0:12:45.516 --> 0:12:47.916 either become a little bit louder, a little bit softer, 0:12:48.036 --> 0:12:51.116 a little bit faster, and when to cut off. All 0:12:51.156 --> 0:12:54.676 these things ended up moving from the visual side to 0:12:54.796 --> 0:12:57.956 the audio. So we still we still use the video 0:12:58.276 --> 0:13:01.756 just to help everybody seeing one another helps give them 0:13:01.756 --> 0:13:04.956 a little bit more sense of presence. So everyone does. 0:13:05.036 --> 0:13:07.596 Every boy in the choir have to have his own 0:13:07.676 --> 0:13:12.196 little virtual studio. Yes, early on a major donor that 0:13:12.236 --> 0:13:15.276 allowed us to distribute this out to the entire chorus. 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:18.156 It's about one hundred and fifty dollars for the device, 0:13:18.356 --> 0:13:21.436 and that doesn't include the accessories, which it would be 0:13:21.476 --> 0:13:25.076 the microphone and some cables, so altogether it's about two 0:13:25.196 --> 0:13:28.516 hundred dollars. Did you when you set out to solve 0:13:28.556 --> 0:13:31.236 this particular problem you quit your old job to focus 0:13:31.276 --> 0:13:36.036 on this? Was that? Was? That? Was that a big step? 0:13:36.116 --> 0:13:39.076 Did that seem like a rash step? It still seems 0:13:39.116 --> 0:13:42.396 like a rash step? It was. It was certainly a 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:46.596 monumental and life changing step for me. I also realized 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:49.036 that this isn't something that's unique to Ragatzi. This is 0:13:49.076 --> 0:13:53.076 a problem that's really general across the entire world. And 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:55.876 to me that was that was one of those moments 0:13:55.916 --> 0:13:59.396 where I realized that I could do something to help, 0:13:59.796 --> 0:14:03.076 and I may not ever have an opportunity to have 0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:06.556 an impact like I could at that moment. How do 0:14:06.796 --> 0:14:09.516 people I mean, so you have this thing that's now 0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:12.676 being used by Rigazzi. How do you get the Ragazzi 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:14.516 can't be the only choir out there or people who 0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:16.836 might I mean, have I come from a family where 0:14:16.916 --> 0:14:19.516 three members of my family are in church choirs and 0:14:19.596 --> 0:14:22.436 they've been grounded since March. I don't think they think 0:14:22.476 --> 0:14:26.556 it's even possible to be able to sing together. How 0:14:26.596 --> 0:14:29.036 have you gotten the word out about virtual studio through 0:14:29.036 --> 0:14:32.316 different mechanisms? I'm certainly in Within the Bay Area itself, 0:14:32.316 --> 0:14:34.756 we had a number of connections to other choruses and 0:14:34.836 --> 0:14:38.796 performing arts organizations. We've also been working a lot with 0:14:38.916 --> 0:14:42.596 Chorus America, which is a great organization of many choruses 0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:47.316 across the country. So we're slowly getting the information and 0:14:47.356 --> 0:14:49.956 the word out that this is possible through through not 0:14:50.316 --> 0:14:55.036 just our mechanism, but different mechanisms. So it'll be interesting 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:58.236 to see this as this progresses over the next several months. 0:14:58.996 --> 0:15:01.636 But wait, I would go even further. There's a whole 0:15:01.676 --> 0:15:05.076 category of live experiences which could be recreated using this. 0:15:05.636 --> 0:15:07.756 So I'm thinking, I mean, I don't know whether you're 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:12.516 a basketball fan, but imagine an NBA game where everyone 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:16.036 who's watching every fan who's watching the game has one 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:20.116 of these devices in their house, So we could have 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:24.116 real time cheering and fan reaction in a basketball game. 0:15:24.636 --> 0:15:27.156 We can recreate a reel. Right now, they're just doing 0:15:27.236 --> 0:15:31.516 fake crowd noise. Right it's a total phony experience. But 0:15:31.596 --> 0:15:34.356 if I have, if I eliminate, eliminate the latency for 0:15:34.436 --> 0:15:38.676 fans to react to a sporting event, I've I've got 0:15:38.676 --> 0:15:42.756 a virtual I've got a realistic virtual fan experience. Do 0:15:42.796 --> 0:15:46.276 I not? Yeah? Absolutely, honestly, I haven't even thought about sports. 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:51.516 But you think you're totally correct, Mike, Mike, this is 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:54.756 this is you can this is the future of this 0:15:54.996 --> 0:15:57.796 is That's the first thing I thought about when when 0:15:57.836 --> 0:15:59.756 I was thinking about it, because this is this huge 0:16:00.116 --> 0:16:03.156 because every single I don't know why I'm going on 0:16:03.236 --> 0:16:06.196 like this, but every single sporting event right now and 0:16:06.356 --> 0:16:09.036 that goes on television is suffering huge ratings to climb. 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:12.236 And that is because the experience of watching sports doesn't 0:16:12.276 --> 0:16:15.396 seem real. And if you're telling me, if it's this easy, 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:17.356 I just have to I gotta buy it. I gotta 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:19.476 buy a device if I want to play. But people 0:16:19.476 --> 0:16:21.916 are there, they were paying one hundred and fifty bucks 0:16:21.956 --> 0:16:25.076 for their ticket to one game before. I mean, it's 0:16:25.116 --> 0:16:29.716 not like people aren't used to investing in a fan experience. Yeah, 0:16:29.756 --> 0:16:31.596 it's a it's a great point. I think what one 0:16:31.836 --> 0:16:34.396 challenge we have is just with the video side of it, 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:36.716 as we can make the audio very quick, but you're 0:16:36.716 --> 0:16:40.876 still going to see things delayed on the video side. Potentially, 0:16:40.916 --> 0:16:43.756 if the delay of the video is the same for 0:16:43.796 --> 0:16:46.316 everyone who's watching, that may not be an issue, Like 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:51.036 they'll still hear each other yea, in sync with what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. 0:16:51.196 --> 0:16:54.196 What's fascinating to me is how you start with a 0:16:54.316 --> 0:16:58.436 very very specific and very very personal problem, which is 0:16:58.476 --> 0:17:02.036 your son is bombed out that he can't sing with 0:17:02.116 --> 0:17:05.956 his chorus. And now you know, we're six months later 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:10.116 and you're thinking about recreating the way in which we 0:17:10.156 --> 0:17:13.196 experienced live music and I'm going on and on about 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:17.796 rescuing the NBA, And is it I mean, it's this 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:22.236 sort of funny and fascinating picture of how innovation works. 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:25.036 It is. It's it's amazing, isn't it. Yeah? That whole 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:29.076 process of innovation being this this thing that that builds 0:17:29.076 --> 0:17:31.436 and builds and changes over time, and ways you don't 0:17:31.436 --> 0:17:34.716 even expect it to. That's That's what I've always loved 0:17:34.716 --> 0:17:38.796 about technology. It's always drawn me into the world of 0:17:39.036 --> 0:17:42.396 entrepreneurism and creating products and and now I have the 0:17:42.396 --> 0:17:45.556 opportunity to do that in a way that involves something 0:17:45.556 --> 0:17:48.716 I really love, which is music, but also is helping people. 0:17:49.196 --> 0:17:51.716 Where could you go to listen in on something that's 0:17:51.756 --> 0:17:56.676 been performance has been conducted or recorded over virtual studio. 0:17:57.076 --> 0:18:00.996 The Rigassi Boys Chorus has recorded and published a number 0:18:01.036 --> 0:18:04.756 of our rehearsals online on YouTube, so the best place 0:18:04.796 --> 0:18:08.196 to see a few examples is probably at Rigazzi's YouTube channel. 0:18:08.396 --> 0:18:10.156 One lasting m Can you give us a little sense 0:18:10.196 --> 0:18:13.996 of what listeners can do if they want to make 0:18:14.116 --> 0:18:16.956 use of this new idea or virtual studio or they 0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:18.956 want to spread the word. Do you have any practical 0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:22.596 some practical words of advice to our listeners. Yes, I'd 0:18:22.636 --> 0:18:26.396 suggest going to our website at Jacktrip dot org, where 0:18:26.396 --> 0:18:29.476 we have a lot of different resources and people who 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:52.396 are volunteers available to help answer questions. Mike Dickie is 0:18:52.476 --> 0:18:56.116 co founder and chairman of the Jack Trip Foundation and 0:18:56.236 --> 0:19:00.636 the creator of Virtual Studio. And we're hearing the Ragatzi 0:19:00.756 --> 0:19:05.796 Boys choir from California, rehearsing from over thirty locations at 0:19:05.836 --> 0:19:10.596 once using jack Trip and Virtual Studio. Be sure to 0:19:10.676 --> 0:19:13.956 check out our show notes to learn more about online 0:19:14.036 --> 0:19:19.876 music collaboration and ways you can get involved. Next week, Unsolvable, 0:19:20.076 --> 0:19:24.396 just ahead of Thanksgiving, retired NASA astronaut Scott Kelly. We'll 0:19:24.396 --> 0:19:29.076 talk about how social isolation is solvable even when it 0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:31.676 feels like you're trapped alone, so many miles and miles 0:19:31.676 --> 0:19:36.876 away from those who love most. I hope you'll join us. 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:40.436 Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:44.556 is produced by Camille Baptista, Senior Producer jos and Frank. 0:19:44.956 --> 0:19:49.116 Katherine Girardoe is our managing producer and our executive producer 0:19:49.716 --> 0:19:53.556 is Miilabell. Special thanks to Kobe Gilford, Head of Fane, 0:19:53.956 --> 0:19:59.476 Eric Sandler, Carly Migliori, and Kadisha Holland. I'm Malcolm Bomba 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:09.476 Zero