1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff from the Science Lab from how stuff 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. This 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: is also Madam look At the science editor at how 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. And this is Robert Lamb, science 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: writer at how stuff works dot com. And today I 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: think we have a pretty fascinating subject for you. Of course, 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: we always have fascinating subjects. But altruism and altruism in 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 1: the animal Kingdom. Yeah, Now what is altruism? Right? This? 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: Altruism is quote behavior that benefits others at the cost 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: of the individual unquote all right, So in this it's 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: like like an example of this would be like the 12 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: ultimate example of this is martyrdom, you know, and at 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: least in human culture where somebody like Sat lays down 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: their life to save others, yes, or you know, or 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: most examples of martyom. But like like a situational like 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: the g I jumping on a hand Garnaide. Yeah he 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: saves his buddy. Yeah he dies, but he saves his buddy. Altruism. Um. 18 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: I tend to think of Fireman a lot when it 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: comes to altruism. I do have that classic image of hero. 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: You know, they're racing into a brain building. But then 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: could you argue that, since um a fireman, you know, 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: that's part of his job, is that really altruistic behavior? 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: Perhaps not? Yeah, that's the thing when you start when 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: you can really nitpick altruism and say like, are you 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: because it basically comes down to you're doing something good 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: just for just to do something good, you know. Um. 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: But then people will say, well, did you really do 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: that just to do something good or to feel good 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: about doing something good, you know, or so that other 30 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: people would see you and say, oh, look how good 31 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: he is for you know, laying his raincoat, laying his 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: coat over the rain puddle so the lady could walk 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: over it. Yeah. Josh Clark reade a really good article 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: about this, um and it's on the website if you 35 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: guys want to look it up. Is there such thing 36 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: as a truly selfless act? And he brings up the 37 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: classic of Friends episode in which Phoebe says, yes, of 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: course there is. And so she's thwarted at every turn. 39 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: And you're frowning at me because you're like, why are 40 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: we bring up Friends? I'm surprised that Josh used a 41 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: friend's reference. I mean, not that I'm not that I'm 42 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: judging that Josh always tried saw some articles, but I 43 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: did not. I didn't expect with my friends reference from Josh. Yeah, yeah, 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: well sometimes friends can bring you a little science and 45 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: altruism apparently, so if they take home is that Phoebe 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: goes through like all these different trials. She gets stung 47 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: by a bee and she thinks she lets a be stinger, 48 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: which seems kind of silly. Uh, And she argues that 49 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: this is an active altruism because she has let the 50 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: be a stinger. Bit of in in the friends episode, 51 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: should we argue that the bee will lose its stinger, 52 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: so it's not actually benefiting the bee, it's hurting the 53 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 1: b and the bee will die. So it goes in Friends. Yeah, 54 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: this Phoebe person was completely wrong and yeah, and so 55 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: she goes through a couple of other examples. And then 56 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: when we were thinking about this podcast, I was trying 57 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: to think of altruism in my own life. What about 58 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: you have you? Did you have anything about it? Um? Well, 59 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: maybe like for like I'm thinking again in terms of 60 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,399 Speaker 1: like my wife and his relationship with our cat, Like 61 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: if our cat gets sick and we spend hundreds of 62 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: dollars to cure the cat, then that's off altruism? Is 63 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: that does that count? We gave up this money just 64 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: to heal the cat or you know, but I guess 65 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: we we enjoy the cat's company, so maybe, I mean, 66 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: that's what we're getting out of it. Likewise, if the 67 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: cat brings us the like half of a chipmunk, you 68 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: know that she could have probably eaten herself. Is that 69 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: an altruistic cat? You know? Yeah, it gets interesting. I 70 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: had the same thought because, as as you guys probably know, 71 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: I am a parent, So I thought about that with 72 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: regard to my kids. You know, when you perform, when 73 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: you think about things that you might do for a 74 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: family member. Oh, I would totally take a bullet. You know, 75 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: this is just like so common that's made it into 76 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: our vernacular. I take a bullet for somebody, now the kids, wouldn't. 77 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: The kids are selfish little things, right they are. They 78 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: are a pretty egocentric kids tend to me for a while. Um, 79 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, but is this, since it's family, is this 80 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: an act of altruism? If you were to actually take 81 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: a bullet or um, you know, execute one of these 82 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: quote unquote selfless behaviors, and like you were saying before 83 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: it might make me feel good. So say I were 84 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: to take that bullet, but you know what, I feel 85 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: pretty good knowing that I saved my kids, So maybe 86 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: I am getting something out of it. And then again, 87 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: my kid is my family, and I'm still getting to 88 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: pass on my jeans. And this gets out a part 89 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: of altruism that people are thinking, well, I don't know, um, 90 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: And in this it's kind of like, maybe you're feeling 91 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: good because that's like the biological like reward for doing 92 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: something that is part of your core programming as an 93 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: organism to propagate the species, to continue that genetic line. Right, yeah, yeah, 94 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: certainly my genetic line. So I mean we tend to 95 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: think of survival of the fittest. This is yeah, which 96 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: brings to mind like just organisms like you know, killing 97 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: each other, beating each other in the head with bones whatever, 98 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: just to get sure. Yeah. Yeah, So biology just have 99 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: really figured out a way around that, the survival of 100 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: the fitness when it comes to altruism, and specifically, there's 101 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: a biologist named W. G. Hamilton's and he came up 102 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: with the idea in the nineteen sixties and it's called 103 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: kin selection theory. You're saying, Okay, you know what, maybe 104 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: there are examples of altruism in the natural world, and 105 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: you know you're gonna select for your kin. You might 106 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: be more willing to perform this behavior if that's your 107 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: daughter out there or that's your baby bird out there 108 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: or whatever, because deep down it's it's all about like 109 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're you're living and you're dying. In 110 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: between you're reproducing and getting that genetic line to continue, right, 111 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 1: And so people have gotten really interested in this whole 112 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: um avenue of research altruism in the animal kingdom. So 113 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: there's some social scientists that you see Berkeley, who have 114 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: even gone so far as to call it survival of 115 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: the Kindest. That's kind of nice, Ferks getting all touchies. 116 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: Would it wouldn't make for a very good reality series though, 117 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: Like nobody survive all the kind of probably not um. 118 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: And they're suggesting that taking care of each other and 119 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: cooperating insures the survival of humans or other organisms. And 120 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: they've even established a Greater Good Science Center, which sounds 121 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of creepy. I mean, this is the title because 122 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: it kind of brings in like weird connotations of like 123 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: the Greater Good science It sounds like the villainous organization 124 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: from a science fiction novel. Yeah, I agree. So let's 125 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: talk about some examples of altruism in the animal kingdom. 126 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: Let's let's talk about humans first a little. A great 127 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: example of this is when someone donates a kidney to someone, 128 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: and if it's an anonymous stranger, I mean not all 129 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: the more, right, because that that's not even like a 130 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: kind thing, you know, because you see plenty of examples 131 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: of like, you know, um offering up a kidney, etcetera 132 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: to you know, a loved one, remember the family, but 133 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: to someone. But plenty of people just you know, offer 134 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: kidneys up to anonymous strangers. You see it all the time. 135 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: Well I don't know about all the time, but more frequently, 136 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: and it certainly makes the news when it happens, like it, right. 137 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 1: So there's a really great article in the New Yorker 138 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: by Lurism Farkwar that dealt with this and um, these 139 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: anonymous donors who are giving their organs um And there 140 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: there's even been a websitegund and called matching donors dot 141 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: com and it's this nonprofit organ that matches quote living 142 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: altruistic organ donors for patients needing transplants. So as you 143 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: can imagine there there can be terrific family opposition to say, hey, Dad, 144 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: do you really need to give up that kidney? What 145 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: if I need it later? Yeah, So it's it was, 146 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: it's really fascinating. And you know, I was also reading 147 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: as long as we're talking about organ donation that, um, 148 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: if a family opposes somebody being a deceased family member 149 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: being an organ donor, they can override their wishes, like 150 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: like they have it, they clicked off on their organization 151 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: card when they die, their organs will be available to transplant. Right. 152 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: But if you haven't checked this out with your family, 153 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: then it can be the organ processing people, the organ 154 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: transplant centers, which might be a much better name for them. 155 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: They a lot of times they will defer to family's 156 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: wishes if they dissent. Yeah, I'm a little bit tangential, 157 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: but I thought I just thought it was interesting. I'm 158 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: I'm all in favor of, you know, use them, Yeah, 159 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: put them to good use. They're not going to do 160 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: a lot of good in the ground, right, So I'm 161 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: going off on a little bit on a tangent there, 162 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: But let's get back on check. Um. You know, there's 163 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: a more common example, and that's you know, the giving 164 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: of money. So recently there there is a big project 165 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: announcement's called the Giving Pledge, and this is spearheaded um 166 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: by forty U S billionaires Bill Gates and Warren Buffet 167 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: among them, and they're publicly saying that they're going to 168 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: donate at least half of their money to philanthrop to 169 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: philanthropic causes. Well, that's great at work. What do you think, Well, 170 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,599 Speaker 1: on one hand, they have all this money, and you 171 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: could argue to it's kind of like if you've got 172 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: once once, you've got so much money, it's like, does 173 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: it hurt to give a certain portion of away, even half? 174 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: Especially we're gonna get that nice fat tax break right right, 175 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, not to mention your you know, these are 176 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: these are guys that are tied with major you know, 177 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: corporations and organizations. So it's like, you look pretty good 178 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: if you go out there and you just give half 179 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: your wealth away, right. True. Yeah, So that's one side 180 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: of But on the other it's like, I mean, I'm 181 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: not going to be completely cynical about it either, because 182 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: I mean I followed like some of the stuff to 183 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: like the Gates Foundation, doesn't they do some very good work. 184 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: So I mean, indeed, it seems hard to quibble yeah 185 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: over that. I don't know if it's altruism, but still 186 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: they are giving half their wealth away that was a 187 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: sizeable chunk behind. Yeah, I tend to fall like I 188 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: tend to fall in the category of thinking. It's kind 189 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: of like a little column a little column B. You know, 190 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: it's like that you can it allows you to do 191 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: something like tax breaks, et cetera. Like it allows you 192 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: to do something great but also feel good about it. 193 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: You know. It's like when I if I make like 194 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: a measily like you know, ten dollar donation to you know, 195 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: a different organization or you know, then on one level, 196 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: it's like, hey, I feel like I did something good 197 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: no matter how you know, small small my part in 198 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: it for this you know, a little you know, charity organization. 199 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: But then also I do plant it out and put 200 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: it in a folder because I'm like, hey, I can 201 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: write that off in the taxes. So it's you know, 202 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: I feel like it's probably that kind of a relationship 203 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: between the two columns with most people, um, though some 204 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: people were probably definitely in one category or the other. Right, 205 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: So cases are instances of of you know, pure altruism 206 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: could be hard to find, but that doesn't mean that 207 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: it doesn't exist in some form or another out there 208 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: in the human kingdom. Okay, Well that's why I think, like, 209 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: like martyrdom in UH is often like the ultimate in 210 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: human culture, Like it's held up to this ultimate example 211 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: of altruism because it's the idea of giving everything that 212 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: you are, you know, or I guess like some I 213 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: tend to think of martyrdom more though, as sacrificing yourself 214 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: for a cause, like a belief in idea, and that 215 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: maybe not what's in the dictionary, but you know, I 216 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: think it's well, but a lot of times like that 217 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: idea though, like Carrie, at least, the belief is that 218 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: that idea saves lives or that idea like makes the 219 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: world a better better place, um, even if in reality 220 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: it doesn't, you know, I don't know, that's just that's 221 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: just my thought on the matter. So biologically speaking, we've 222 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: had some thoughts on this, and um, a gentleman named 223 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: fran Dwall who's an emery prematologist and a biologist, is saying, 224 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: among others that altruism could come from a sense of 225 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: empathy we feel when other humans aren't distress. Okay, this 226 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: is more I think of like the fire you know, 227 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: somebody's caught in a burning building type of or what 228 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: is the example? And blade Runner? What is the example? Well, 229 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: the whole thing and blade Runner is they have to 230 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: do the test to see if the if the replicant 231 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: can feel empathy. Oh yeah, that's like a turtle on 232 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: a It's not like a turtle on a fence. Put 233 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: I can't rease some been a while since I've seen 234 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: it or or read the book. I just read to 235 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: Android's Dream of elector is that part in the book book? 236 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: Because they're very different, and I can't remember what lines 237 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: up in what doesn't. Yeah, there is a crazy empathy test. 238 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: I can't remember what some of the exact questions are though, 239 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: And then like they all centered on animals, whether you 240 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: know your response to animals and distress. Yeah, and there's 241 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: something to like the little kids like up to a 242 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: certain age, they can't feel empathy. Really yeah again, selfish 243 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: little guys. So um. Some of the scientists are saying 244 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: that altruism could be instilled when female mammals are nursing, 245 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: they're young. It sounds a little wacky, but Dual I 246 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: was reading this when he was talking about a different 247 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: book on altruism that he reviewed in the New York Times. 248 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: So anyway, Dual is saying that there's a study in 249 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: which men and women had more empathetic responses in a 250 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: lab experiment after they were dosed with oxytocin oxytocin, and 251 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: this is known as the so called cuddle hormone. Oh yes, 252 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: you've heard of the kettle hormone. Um, well it came up. 253 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: There was there's a documentary series called This Emotional Life, 254 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: and there's a whole section that goes into like studying 255 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: Um some it doesn't occur in every case, but in 256 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: some cases of children have grown up and like I 257 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: could leave sort of like guys Eastern Russian orphanages where 258 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 1: some of them have like it's very like the children 259 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: there get a very small amount of attention and they've 260 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: not not all the children, but some of them end 261 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: up having this, uh, the certain pattern of of sort 262 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: of emotional dysfunction, and they've traced it to to this 263 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: particular substance. So, um, you know, somebody who might have 264 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: a lot of oxytocin would be you know, a breastfeeding 265 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: woman or you get it when you're going through childbirth. 266 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: And it's also associated with love and stuff like that, 267 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: so it is kind of a cuddly hormone. So that's humans. 268 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: That's that's a little bit of altruism humans. But what 269 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: about other animals? Okay, well, when this instantly comes to 270 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: mind is from of course surfing cute animal pictures online 271 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: like we all do, uh, where you have instances where like, oh, 272 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: the cat just adopted some puppies or the dog just 273 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: adopted some kittens. Yeah, the maternal instinct just overrides everything. 274 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: And it's so that's true. It seems like sometimes animals 275 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: will care for offspring that's not their own. But what's 276 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: going on there could still be an example of that 277 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: kin selection theory where talking about a little earlier. So 278 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: here's an interesting squirrel study. Red squirrel study like that 279 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: comes to you from complements of some Canadian researchers at 280 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: the University of Alberta, and they reported that there are 281 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: some female red squirrels there that were adopting abandoned baby squirrels. 282 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: Sounds sounds reasonable, except the squirrels were related. Oh so 283 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: like unlike with the cat adopting the puppies, like they're 284 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: actually maybe picking up on some sort of genetic similarity 285 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: between themselves and the Yeah, and that was really what 286 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: the researcher we're trying to figure out. They thought, well, 287 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: maybe they can tell by how those squirrels are chattering. 288 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: You know, there's some sort of family identifier in that 289 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: chatting that they're that they're picking up and able to recognize. 290 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, they were trying to chease out this connection 291 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: and how the adoptive mom was able to recognize the 292 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: genetic Lincoln act on it. It's particularly notable too because 293 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: we think of there's so many squirrels out there, but 294 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: they're actually solitary animals, are they? Because it seems like 295 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: they're always chasing each other in my yard? I know, 296 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: I know, Um, well, according to the Canadian book. And 297 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: the other thing is that they're only going to adopt 298 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: once there they would only perform this behavior once otherwise 299 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: it's too much of a cost on the existing family. 300 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: So anyway, they published this research and Nature Communications. I 301 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: thought it was kind of interesting. So it was altruism 302 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: by means of kin selection, and I just have to 303 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: throw this into um, you know, talking about like the net, 304 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: like our natural Like we see a baby and we 305 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: we want on some level we want to care for it, right, 306 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: some of us do, well, yeah, I look at a 307 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: lot of us do. But like you see that tied 308 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: into like how they determine which, like which animals we 309 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: find cute and which ones we don't. The cuter animals 310 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: resemble human infants basically in terms of their eyes, structure 311 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: and and all that. That's why I like a kitten, 312 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: Like small head, enormous eyes. People go crazy for it. 313 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: You could rob a bank with a kitten. You know, 314 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: I've never tried to do that. You don't try that, 315 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: but I'm just saying you probably could. Yeah, it is interesting. 316 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: I mean you you definitely think about, well, they've got 317 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: to be cute because you know, a kitten, a puppy, 318 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: a baby to some extent can be an awful lot 319 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: of work to care for. So you know it does 320 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: a cuteness makeup for it, boost their case help them survive. 321 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: Cuteness as a survival factor we're thinking about. But the 322 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: next animal we're going to talk about isn't really traditionally 323 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: thought of, is that cute, right plants? I mean some 324 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: point I get flowers or I don't know. I would 325 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: never classify a plant is cute neither I UM and 326 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: there there hasn't been a whole lot of research done here. 327 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: But but some plants are seemingly able to recognize their kin. 328 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: How they act on that knowledge is unclear. So examples 329 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: of altruism action, we don't really have them. But a 330 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: step before that would be being able to recognize or kin. Okay, 331 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: although I suppose if it were a truly selfless plant, 332 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: it wouldn't matter. And they've also found it in um fish, 333 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: really sick lids. So how you say that the I 334 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: guess you find these freshwater fish and aquariums. Oh yeah, yeah, 335 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: I've seen so. I was reading about a study in 336 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: which subordinate females will raise unrelated offspring, and unlike the squirrels, 337 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: the instances of the squirrels there is no genetic link. Um. 338 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: But these these sicklids are getting some benefits when it 339 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: comes time to reproduce. So again, is this altruism not 340 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: if it's necessarily boosting their chances at reproductive success and 341 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: put personel on like a large level, it's kind of 342 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: like the survival of the species, you know, is a 343 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: steak with a lot of this. You know, It's like 344 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: if I I'm a fish and I adopt a bunch 345 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 1: of extra fish, that's more fish out there that are 346 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: going to potentially be successful, right right, I mean they 347 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: don't make sitcoms about you know, family ties among sicklids, 348 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: right right, So good point, Robert orly And maybe it's 349 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: been pitched, but it's never They might have produced a 350 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: pilot but it didn't get to get picked up. And 351 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: now I have the theme song to Silver Silver Spoon together, 352 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: but that's a totally different um sitcom. Yeah. So anyway, 353 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: so what about back to area. This is very interesting. 354 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: These guys are really not cute. So and this is 355 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: what really prompted my interest in getting Robert to go 356 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: along with a podcast on altruism. There's a really big 357 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: finding on it that comes from a study on resistant 358 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: pathogens that's published in September two thousand ten edition of Nature, 359 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: I think September two. And we recently talked in that 360 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: podcast about quorum sensing about how it's a mistake to 361 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: write off bacteria. They're not simple organisms by no means 362 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: I think the analogy that I really was proud of 363 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: in that one is that they're not like, it's not 364 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: like a kid that only advanced as far as the 365 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: second grade, but like a kid who like became like 366 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: the best second grader in the world. You know, Like 367 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: that's the way I like to think of it. You know, 368 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: it's like it's a it's in a way, it's a 369 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: lower level um as far as organisms go, but they're 370 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: really good at that level. Yeah. Yeah, you would be 371 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: scared of that second grader. You bow down, you would 372 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: give them your twinkie. So here's what a couple of 373 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: Boston researchers found out about the latest wonders of bacteria. Specifically, 374 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: they're from Harvard and Sustin University, and they may have 375 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: stumbled on some altruistic bacteria. Really, so what were they doing. 376 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: They were looking at how antibiotic resistance strains of bacteria developed. Right, 377 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: they got some strands going on in a bioreactor, they're 378 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: monitoring their controlling, they're doing all this stuff, and they're 379 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily thinking of altruism. And so the typical scenario 380 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: we think of when we think of resistant strands, if 381 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: if we do in fact think of resistant strands I 382 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: imagine some of you guys do, is that you know, 383 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: bacterium has a mutation protects it against a certain antibiotic, 384 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: and then that one bacterium survives and it replicates like crazy, 385 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: and while all of a sudden you have this population 386 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: of antibiotic resistant bacteria some strain, right. That's really only 387 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: part of the story is what these researchers found out. 388 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: There's some pretty interesting things that are happening at a 389 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: population level. Okay, so stay with me here. The Massachusetts 390 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: researchers were working with E. Coli populations and a bioreactor, 391 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: and they found that resistant bacterium wind up producing approach gene. Okay, 392 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: so the resistant guys, the ones who are thriving, they 393 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: wind up producing this protein and it's called indole I 394 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: believe that's how you say it. And the indole helps 395 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: out weaker members of the population. So they're pumping this 396 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: stuff out. They're pumping this protein, and the mechanism of 397 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: the indole kind of acts a little bit like steroid. 398 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: It's helping the waxed, weaker bacteria to bulk up and 399 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: and fight off the incoming antibiotics. And it also helps 400 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: these weaker bacteria to pump the antibiotic out of the cell. Okay, 401 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: so where's the altruism part. Well, the production of indole 402 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: by those resistant bacteria comes at a cost. It's really, really, 403 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: really energy intensive. Okay, so in human terms, we might 404 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: say they're sacrificing themselves for the greater good. It's really interesting. Now, Yeah, 405 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of like I'm kind of like picturing like 406 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: the bacteria are like all on like a big camping 407 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: trip to it with it, with it, with each other, 408 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: and the like the one that's become resistant, it's like 409 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: he's the one that has like all You've brought plenty 410 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: of rations for self, and then everybody else doesn't have 411 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: enough to eat that night, so he ends up sharing 412 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: his rations with the other. It's kind of like that 413 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: that level. I was like, he could survive on his own, great, 414 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: but he's diminishing his own advantage by helping out less 415 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: privileged bacteria surrounds. Right, I guess I take the point 416 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: of view of m that you know that master camper 417 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: is really advancing the skills of the lesser camp campers. 418 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: Maybe he's like really good at archery and he's showing 419 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: them how to, you know, better hit bulls eyes. You know, 420 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: he's guiding him, he's showing them how he's really upping 421 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: their skills. Kind of like when the cat brings in half, 422 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: like a half of the chipmunk. For me, she's because 423 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: I've heard that. Like the whole thing is that they're 424 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: they're possibly like trying to teach their humans how to hunt, 425 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 1: or like when they bring in alive animal, they're kind 426 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: of like, here you go, this is how you can 427 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: do it, you know, here, chase this chipmunk down. You know. 428 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: So another podcast in which the cat gets mentioned. Is 429 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: this going to be like Seinfeld and which super Roman 430 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: comes up in every episode and a cat comes up 431 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: in every podcast? Probably? I don't know. It's just I 432 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: was never a cat person until recently. So it's like 433 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: it brings up to so many questions about the universe. 434 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: You know, It's like, what is this creature that lives 435 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: in my house and like climbs through a hole in 436 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: the wall and like sleeps in the corner of the bed. 437 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: What's It's kind of weird. I don't know. So, getting 438 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: back to bacteria, the ramifications of this are pretty interesting. Obviously, 439 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: we want to know what's going on in resistant bacteria, 440 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: and so indele could be something that we investigate further. 441 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: This particular protein that the resistant bacteria are pumping out, 442 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: maybe we want to target it when we're trying to 443 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: figure out the next move. Um, when we're battling these 444 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: antabatic resistance strains of bacteria. Maybe it's maybe it's a 445 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: target in the war, the ever waging war between humans 446 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: and bacteria. Well cool, do we have some We have 447 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: some listener mail to to read. Don't you keep getting 448 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: lefties writing in or varieties that like lefties, but mostly 449 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: lefties and lefty guitarists. So here's an amusic like lefties 450 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: are really just left he's writing it pretend they like 451 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: open extra email accounts to do it. I see right 452 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: through it. Um, So here comes one from Heather and 453 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: Heather Rights. Hey, guys, I just finished listening to the 454 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: Lefty Podcast, and I have an entertaining story about growing 455 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: up left handed in a right handed family. I can relate, Heather. 456 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: You see, my parents tried to teach me how to 457 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: tie my shoes for years. This was all kepped years. 458 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: But sadly, if I didn't tie my fingers into the knot. 459 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: I usually made some sort of squiggly mess and it 460 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: would fall apart after a few seconds. So I wore 461 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: vel crow shoes until a nice old lady that babies 462 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: that me taught me how to tie my shoes the 463 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: lefty bay I was twelve. Wow, you know, I have 464 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: to interject real quick. Are you gonna talk about cround? 465 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: How wondrous it is? No, well, this is thing. When 466 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: I was a kid, there was so there was one 467 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: point where I had the del crow shoes and then 468 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: my parents tell we know, you can't wear velcro shoes anymore. 469 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: You need to learn to tie your actual shoes because 470 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: when you get older, they're not going to have vel 471 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: crow shoes anymore. For adults, that was a big fact. 472 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: It was a big lie because now I like, I'll 473 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: go to this store, I'll be get some new shoes, 474 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: and I'll see the velcrow shoes. Gonna be like I 475 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: could be wearing those. Now I've learned to tie my 476 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: shoes for nothing, you know. Anyway, But to continue, I 477 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: had some blue bell crow shoes. They were kind of 478 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: like Satine, I want to say, and they were great. 479 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: Got a from stride right, just so easy they don't like. 480 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: I still have kind of hate shoe because we always 481 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: come undone. You're dragging them, stepping on them, tripping over 482 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: the shoelaces can be a fashion statement, Robert. Okay, but 483 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: getting on to the Hana. Other listener, Milt, we had 484 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: a wonderful leech story sent in by Skyler Adam, Missouri, 485 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: and I really we just gotta share this one. Okay. 486 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: So we did that podcast on leeches a while back, 487 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: and we're talking a little bit about you know, somebody 488 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: leeches as pets. So Skyler writes, several years ago, I 489 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: directed a summer camp waterfront with leech infested waters. Kids 490 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: would react with terror whenever one of the wiggly creatures 491 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: got anywhere near them. I decided to keep some in 492 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: a fish bowl as pets or mascots, if you will. Overnight, 493 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: the camper sphere disappeared, and kids would catch little buggers 494 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: to add to the collection. Because amaze the strategy work. 495 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. That's the question mark. 496 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: But I agree, Yes, send your kids to Can't Blood Leech. 497 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: That's a great place, so he continues. By the time 498 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: this season ended, I had grown attach the squirmy little guys. 499 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: So I brought them back to my college storm with me. 500 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: That is interesting. They required very little care, just a 501 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: water change every month or so and a feeding every 502 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: couple of months. My friends thought I was a little 503 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: strange for keeping leeches as pets until I told them 504 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: about the feeding. Then they thought it was downright disgusting. 505 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: Are you ready for this? I would pop a movie 506 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: in the VCR. You're right, you got to set the 507 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: mode really yeah? Yeah, so he's popping the movie in 508 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: the VCRE. I like to thank you as maybe you 509 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: know dirty dancing fast times the Reachmond High, after all, 510 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: was the PCR. Or he could actually, there's a movie 511 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: called I Suck Your Blood. Maybe it's a vampire movie, yeah, 512 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: or blood sucking Freights. There's there's no shortage of blood 513 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: sucking movie titles. Well, so he has his movie in 514 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: the VCR. He is ready. He'd kicked back with a 515 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: soda in one hand and the other hand dangling in 516 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: the leach bowl. All twenty eight of the slimy little 517 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: creatures would attach to various parts of my hand and 518 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: feast away for about an hour. Then they would drop 519 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: off and swim away. Alison mentioned feeding them on your finger, 520 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: but they showed a market preference for the webbing between. 521 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: Oh I love this. First person reaches that's probably I'm 522 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: looking at that area now in my hand. Maybe that's 523 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, like softer now he well, Skyler's philosophy was 524 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: that he reckons that the skin is thinness there and 525 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: maybe that was wh only downside to the process was 526 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: a subsequent itching and nonclotting. So anyways, all things go well, 527 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: and he turns to the camp the next summer and 528 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: all leeches were still in good health and he released 529 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: them into the swimming area again. Watch the delayed campers 530 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: who were looking forward to catching them all over again. 531 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: So I just thought that was and thanks to his breathing, 532 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: they're like each one's the size of like a small doll. 533 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: Now they're enormous. I kid, but that's that's awesome. I mean, 534 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: it's like I love it when somebody has like a 535 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: like scientific curiosity in something and it goes against the grain. 536 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's like other people may you know, I 537 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: think it's weird to keep leeches in your room and 538 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: feed them with your own blood, But those people don't 539 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: know a lot about leeches. This guy has information because 540 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,239 Speaker 1: he was brave, splash crazy enough to actually get out 541 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: there and keep in his pets. Yeah. Very interesting. So, 542 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: as always, we love hearing from you guys. These stories 543 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: are great, So if you have one you want to 544 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: share with us, whether it's on the leeches or bacteria 545 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: or altruism, please write us. We're at science Stuff at 546 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: hosts dot com. Yeah, and check us out on the 547 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: social media. We're on Facebook as stuff from the Science 548 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: Lab and on Twitter you can find us as lab 549 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: stuff and we will, you know, constantly keep you updated 550 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 1: on what we're researching, what we're podcasting and blogging about, 551 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: and you know, just what kind of weird science the 552 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: stories we're really into at the moment. That's all. Yeah, 553 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: thanks for listening, guys. For more on this and thousands 554 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com. 555 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on 556 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: the house stuff works dot com home page