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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am hanging in there today.

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Speaker 1: Hanging in there is all I can ask for, right,

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Speaker 1: that's right. I want to just tell you briefly what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing tonight. I think it's a big mistake. I know.

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Speaker 1: So one of my girls plays volleyball. She's very competitive,

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Speaker 1: and there is a parent kid volleyball game tonight. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know you think it's hilarious. I do not. I

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Speaker 1: think I'm going to get a volleyball to the face.

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Speaker 1: But she really wants me to do it, and I

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Speaker 1: got out of it last year, and this is her

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Speaker 1: last year at this school, so.

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Speaker 2: You're stuck.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be awful. Have you had to do

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Speaker 1: anything like that with sports and your kids? Where did

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Speaker 1: you look out and they were all in band?

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Speaker 2: No? You know, with my older kids, I think there

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Speaker 2: was one time we did sort of an adult child

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Speaker 2: indoor soccer. You know, that was a lot of fun.

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Speaker 2: But what ends up happening is is you know, of

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Speaker 2: course the grownups end up getting super competitive with each other.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's really not a fun experience for

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Speaker 2: the kids.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how this is going to go. If it's

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Speaker 1: the loudest parents at our game, then we might be

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Speaker 1: in trouble because it's me and another mom who I adore.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not sure either of us are going to

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Speaker 1: be very good at this. But Quinn is super excited.

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Speaker 1: She thinks she's gonna like spike on me and stuff

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Speaker 1: it and all kinds of horrible things, which I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna remind you of later in therapy talk about

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Speaker 1: stuff like this.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're gonna have to put her in her place.

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Speaker 1: I know we'll see that will not happen, I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: Although I've always been pretty athletic. I played indoor soccer.

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Speaker 1: I was a goalkeeper for a long time as an adult,

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Speaker 1: and I was pretty good. But it was a little

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Speaker 1: bit if you've played indoor soccer and it sounds like

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Speaker 1: you've had to participate in that, it was a little

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Speaker 1: bit like being in a pinball machine a soccer ball

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Speaker 1: coming at me in every direction. I separated my shoulder,

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Speaker 1: I broke an ankle, I almost broke my nose several times.

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Speaker 1: And when I started writing books, I just said, I

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Speaker 1: think I got to take a break from this. This

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Speaker 1: is not a good look for my publicity tours having

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Speaker 1: all kinds of broken bones and everything. So I finally

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Speaker 1: just stopped.

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Speaker 2: And that was indoor soccer and you're breaking everything like that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I was in my forties, Paul.

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Speaker 2: Oh, okay, yeah, because when I played high school football

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and that's exactly what happened

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Speaker 2: to me, is I was just breaking bones left and right.

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Speaker 2: You know my body wasn't built for football.

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Speaker 1: Well we're going to find out if my body is

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Speaker 1: built for volleyball. I suspect not. But it's the effort.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I know I'm going to fail, but it's so

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Speaker 1: important to my kid. She thinks it's going to be

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Speaker 1: so much fun. So we'll see what happens. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: This could be bad.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's fun. You're gonna have fun.

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Speaker 1: Good, I hope so well. I want to switch gears

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Speaker 1: here because we are talking about a really interesting case.

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Speaker 1: We're heading backwards and time for where we were last time.

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Speaker 1: We're in eighteen forty five, So no photos, sorry, Paul,

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Speaker 1: but some really fun drawings that's going to be helpful

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Speaker 1: at all. We're in Boston, which is one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite cities. I went to Boston University undergrad and absolutely

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Speaker 1: loved it. And this is a historic case. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to tell you why. But the murder is the

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Speaker 1: least interesting part of this case. But it's a historically

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Speaker 1: important case, and I'm hoping to draw on either your

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Speaker 1: experience or research or just sort of overhearing people talk

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Speaker 1: about similar cases. It's fascinating for me though.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and you know you've asked me before if I

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Speaker 2: had ever been to Boston, and I'd always said no.

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Speaker 1: Oh. Now, book Tour.

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Speaker 2: The paperback was released, you know a few months ago,

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Speaker 2: and I did a book tour and I didn't go

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Speaker 2: into Boston proper, but I was at the Boston airport. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: then end up. I mean, the worst travel day I've

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Speaker 2: ever had in my entire life to get from Denver

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Speaker 2: out to Boston. But I had the first event up

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Speaker 2: in Woodstock, Vermont, where my collaborator on my book, Robin lived,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, this was in October and the

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Speaker 2: leaves were changing colors and it was just beautiful, you know.

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Speaker 2: So at least I can now say I've been in

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Speaker 2: the northeast part of the country.

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Speaker 1: Okay, very good, We're getting somewhere that sounds great. I

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Speaker 1: love that area. And this is actually where the center

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Speaker 1: of this story is in a wonderful place. It's been

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Speaker 1: Beacon Hill in Boston, and it's as fascinating in eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty five as it is now. So let's go ahead

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Speaker 1: and set the scene. I want to give people a

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Speaker 1: warning in this episode we do talk about suicide. So

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Speaker 1: this takes place at a house in as I said,

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Speaker 1: Boston's Beacon Hill neighborhood, which to ad is known for

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Speaker 1: these wonderful brick row houses and gas lamps and kind

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Speaker 1: of a throwback to the eighteen hundreds. It is an

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Speaker 1: alley called Cedar Lane where we are, and it's behind

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Speaker 1: Charles Street, which is the main thoroughfare in Beacon Hill

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Speaker 1: at the time. So it is owned by a couple

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Speaker 1: named Joel and Berthia Lawrence, and they have a house.

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Speaker 1: And this house has a little bit of a reputation.

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Speaker 1: They charge very high rent to unmarried couples who can

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Speaker 1: stay there together. In eighteen forty five, that is a

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Speaker 1: massive no no. They also rented out to sex workers,

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Speaker 1: which I feel like might be a little bit less

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Speaker 1: of a no no than the unmarried couples. I think

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Speaker 1: it's accepted a little bit more in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: So this is a couple who is making a lot

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Speaker 1: of money in this house from renting out rooms to

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Speaker 1: people who are not supposed to be displaying whatever they're

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Speaker 1: doing in public. So already, you know this seems like

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Speaker 1: this could be a complicated situation for whomever our victim is.

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Speaker 1: So you were talking about the beautiful fall leaves and

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Speaker 1: kind of that quintessential autumn atmosphere with the beautiful orange

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Speaker 1: and yellow leaves. So this is that time. It is

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Speaker 1: early morning October twenty seventh, eighteen forty five, and the

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Speaker 1: woman of the house who's remind you his name is

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Speaker 1: Bertheia Lawrence is woken up at four thirty or five

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Speaker 1: in the morning by the sound of a woman screaming,

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Speaker 1: and then she hears a big thud. This wakes up

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Speaker 1: several of the borders at the house also and they

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Speaker 1: report hearing. So we've got ear witnesses here. They report

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Speaker 1: hearing heavy footfalls going down the stairs. Sounds like as

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Speaker 1: if the person has skipped the first couple of steps

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Speaker 1: or perhaps has fallen down a few of them and

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Speaker 1: is shaking the banister on the way down the stairs.

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Speaker 1: This is not someone who's suttly slipping out of this house.

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Speaker 1: Ear witnesses can they be reliable? We have talked about

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Speaker 1: ear witnesses before in their unreliability, but they can be helpful.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming it's information, especially if you have multiple witnesses

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Speaker 2: that hear the same thing. There's consistency in their statements

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Speaker 2: that just lends credibility to the details that they're providing.

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Speaker 2: So you know, here, the best detail is going to

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Speaker 2: be the time in which they're hearing this person going

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Speaker 2: down the stairs. Now, heavy footfalls, footfalls. I've never really

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Speaker 2: heard that term before.

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Speaker 1: I love that phrase. I've used it a lot in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's such a subjective aspect, it's hard for

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Speaker 2: me to put any weight on.

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Speaker 1: OK.

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Speaker 2: Does that indicate you're dealing with a larger person? Does

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Speaker 2: that indicate it's a man? I don't think I could

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Speaker 2: extrapolate with a lot of confidence from that type of

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Speaker 2: subjective audio witness But the time, the timing, a woman's

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Speaker 2: screaming sounds like somebody is running out. Now, can we

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Speaker 2: correlate the woman's scream and the person running out as

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Speaker 2: being part of the same event. You know, That's where

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're going to tell me what happens next.

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Speaker 1: Well, the ear witnesses say that the man goes out

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Speaker 1: the front door. They hear that. They say he makes

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Speaker 1: some kind of a noise. They don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: a yell, but it seems like he's trying to alert

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Speaker 1: people on the street of something happening. They say he

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Speaker 1: sounds anxious, but nobody could really make out what he's

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Speaker 1: saying or doing. He's anxious, we presume, because not only

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Speaker 1: is there a scream happening, if he's connected to it

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Speaker 1: in a thud. But the hallway in the house is

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Speaker 1: now full of smoke, and it's coming from the small

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Speaker 1: room at the back of the house on the second floor.

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Speaker 1: And there's a woman who's rented that house in her

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Speaker 1: early twenties named Maria Bickford. She's been there eight days.

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Speaker 1: Multiple people from the house and from out on the

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Speaker 1: street go into this room. There's smoke everywhere. They go

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Speaker 1: into the room and they find that the bed and

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Speaker 1: the closet have been set on fire, and there is

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Speaker 1: a bed in a small adjoining room that has also

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Speaker 1: been set on fire. But there's so much smoke that

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Speaker 1: they have no idea if Maria is in there or not.

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Speaker 1: So I've talked about fire in Seasons of tenfold More Wicked.

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Speaker 1: I talked to a forensic chemist who said, it's it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work the way people think it works. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't pour gasoline down and it's a perfect way

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Speaker 1: to cover up a murder. It's unpredictable, and there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of things the backdraft or the temperature, or

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Speaker 1: how much oxygen is in the room and what the

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Speaker 1: accelerant is, and fire is not the perfect way to

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Speaker 1: cover up a murder? What do you think about that?

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Speaker 1: So you've got these different parts of this back area

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Speaker 1: that have been set on fire.

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Speaker 2: Well, right now, you've got multiple points of origin. So

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Speaker 2: instead of a fire happening as a result of let's say,

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Speaker 2: electrical short and this is in the eighteen this is

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Speaker 2: eighteen forty five, so I'm sure we're not dealing with

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Speaker 2: electrical shorts. You know, probably dealing with candles right for

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Speaker 2: lights and stuff, But multiple points of origin strongly suggests

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Speaker 2: that you're dealing with arson. Now when you start talking

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Speaker 2: about if you have a crime that's occurred and the

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Speaker 2: use of fire to cover it up, yes, there's variables.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can't predict how that fire is going

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Speaker 2: to proceed unless you are very very knowledgeable, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I've gone out to arson cases, arsen cases in

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Speaker 2: which bodies were burned. That's where working with the state

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Speaker 2: fire marshals or arson investigators from the county level. From

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Speaker 2: my jurisdiction, these are individuals that have a high skill

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Speaker 2: set of being able to investigate the fire. And those

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Speaker 2: are the types of individuals that would be able to

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Speaker 2: go into an environment and predict how a fire would

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Speaker 2: like proceed once it started. But if the fire fully

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Speaker 2: engulfs the crime scene, it is disastrous for the investigation

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Speaker 2: because fire is just I mean, it just ruins evidence.

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Speaker 2: It is a good way to cover up a crime,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not wanting anybody out there listening to commit

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Speaker 2: a crime and use fire to cover it up. But

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Speaker 2: if the fire proceeds, you know, and fully takes over

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Speaker 2: the crime scene, yes, that is a good way to

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Speaker 2: get rid of evidence.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got firefires coming in there, spring water

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Speaker 1: to try to put it out, which does it even

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Speaker 1: more Right.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's a mess. There still can be evidence, but

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Speaker 2: that is a tough, tough crime scene to process and

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Speaker 2: get anything that's useful.

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Speaker 1: Well, they go ahead and quickly smother the fire, thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: because it's in two different spots, and the homeowner, Joel,

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Speaker 1: thinks that Maria has escaped. There's so much smoke they

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Speaker 1: can't see anything. They open up a window or two

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Speaker 1: and the smoke clears out and then they see her body.

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Speaker 1: So this is Maria Bickford. She is found lying on

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Speaker 1: the floor on her back and I've got the injuries

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Speaker 1: here and they're pretty bad. She's wearing a nightgown that's

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Speaker 1: been badly burned. Her hair has been singed, and her

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Speaker 1: skin has also been burned. Her head is turned to

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Speaker 1: the right, one of her ears is ripped, and her

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Speaker 1: ear ring is missing, and her throat has been slashed.

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Speaker 1: And I have more details on those injuries. But at

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Speaker 1: first blush, this sounds awful, and then she's set on fire.

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Speaker 2: So at this point, Marie's on her back right now,

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Speaker 2: she's fully clothed.

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Speaker 1: Yep, she's wearing a nightgown.

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Speaker 2: She's wearing a nightgown. Throat is cut, ear has been slashed,

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Speaker 2: like the offender is almost trying to take her ear off,

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Speaker 2: and the earring is missing from the ear that is slashed,

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Speaker 2: as if the offender took a souvenir.

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Speaker 1: Or slashed it to a point where it flung off

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Speaker 1: somewhere either one, I guess, yeah, And.

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Speaker 2: There's no one for me. If that earring was recovered

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Speaker 2: at the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe.

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Speaker 2: So now, Okay, So as of right now, obviously homicide

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Speaker 2: and if she set on fire, then it's the offender

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Speaker 2: is trying to cover up what happened. But I really

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Speaker 2: can't discern much more with that information. It's definitively a homicide.

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Speaker 2: I am keying in on the missing earring to a point.

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Speaker 2: You know, is that a souvenir? Was there a sexual

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Speaker 2: component to this crime? Was there a financial component to

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Speaker 2: this crime? Is this a very expensive item of jewelry

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Speaker 2: and the offender took advantage of being alone with Maria

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Speaker 2: and decided I'm going to steal that and killed her

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Speaker 2: in the process. Don't know at this point.

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Speaker 1: And when we talk about suspects, this is what makes

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Speaker 1: it difficult. You have random couples coming in and out

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Speaker 1: who are unmarried, who want privacy, and then of course

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Speaker 1: you've got sex work happening where you have people coming

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Speaker 1: in and out. So this is not like a private

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Speaker 1: house with a family like we've talked about before. You

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Speaker 1: have a lot of access coming in and out of

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Speaker 1: people who are essentially anonymous through this whole thing. We

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Speaker 1: don't even know if this is a man. But I

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Speaker 1: can also tell you details about what I say is

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Speaker 1: the viciousness of this crime was awful. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's going to dictate whether it's a man or

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Speaker 1: a woman.

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Speaker 2: No. In terms of women are very very capable of

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Speaker 2: committing extreme acts of violence. Yep. You don't see women

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Speaker 2: committing this type of crime frequently, but it does happen,

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Speaker 2: and you have to consider that this location most certainly

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Speaker 2: is going to be drawing in people from all walks

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Speaker 2: of life, and it's somewhat of a beacon for crime.

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Speaker 2: Anytime you've got a location in which there's sex work,

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Speaker 2: you have the possibility that you have a criminal element

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Speaker 2: that is going to be going there in part to

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Speaker 2: participate as customers, but also recognizing that honey is passing

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Speaker 2: hands there. Customers are going in with cash in hand.

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Speaker 2: The sex workers are gathering up this cash. Whoever's overseeing

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Speaker 2: the sex workers is going to have cash, so it's

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Speaker 2: going to draw the criminal element who has financial interest

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Speaker 2: in stealing that, either through theft or through robbery.

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Speaker 1: Well, this becomes more interesting because this seems angry to me.

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Speaker 1: Listen to the wound. Maria's neck wound is six inches long,

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Speaker 1: three inches deep. The jugular and the windpipe are completely severed.

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Speaker 1: The cut goes all the way to her spine, and

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Speaker 1: she is nearly decapitated, and they find an open razor

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Speaker 1: with blood on it in between her body and the bed,

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Speaker 1: clearly not discarded and not covered up. What do you

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Speaker 1: think about that, good lord?

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Speaker 2: Almost decapitated, which is very typical for a throat slash

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Speaker 2: as a result of homicide. A reasonably sharp knight will

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Speaker 2: go through the soft tissues of the front of the neck,

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Speaker 2: and almost always that knife during homicidal violence goes through

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Speaker 2: the windpipe, goes all the way down to the vertebrae

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Speaker 2: in the back of the neck. I've actually had a

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Speaker 2: suicide in which the man cut his own throat, and

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Speaker 2: relatively speaking, it's superficial. I was looking down this man's windpipe,

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Speaker 2: his trachea, but it did not go all the way

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Speaker 2: back to his vertebra So that's where people commonly read

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Speaker 2: this nearly decapitated. It must be just this extreme act

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Speaker 2: of violence. And it's like, no, this is what when

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Speaker 2: somebody gets their throat to cut as a result of homicide.

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Speaker 2: This is pretty typical.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I had no idea that it was that easy. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well okay, So once the smoke clears, literally they are

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Speaker 1: finding more things. There are articles of men's clothing all

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Speaker 1: around the room. This is a includes a vest a neckcloth,

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Speaker 1: a pair of drawers. This is very nineteenth century stuff.

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Speaker 1: A pair of drawers with a sock stuck in one

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Speaker 1: of the legs, and the sock and the drawers have

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Speaker 1: lots of bloodstains on him. The drawers are mens long underwear.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't know that, they're kind of like a

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Speaker 1: white capris that are worn underpants. So we do know

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Speaker 1: who owns all of this clothing, and his name is

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Speaker 1: Albert J. Terrell. Seems like an automatic suspect to this

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Speaker 1: guy who has all of his clothing. Things that I

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Speaker 1: want you to pay attention to that I know you will,

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Speaker 1: but just to keep in mind because I think it's

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Speaker 1: important later on. It doesn't appear like whoever did this?

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Speaker 1: If it's Albert, he left behind the blade and his

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Speaker 1: clothes are everywhere, and he's identifiable by the owners of

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Speaker 1: this house. If this is a crime that he's trying

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Speaker 1: to cover up, he's doing a lousy job of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, what is his relationship with Maria? Was he

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Speaker 2: staying with Maria?

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Speaker 1: So he was When people leave stuff behind like that,

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Speaker 1: that just seems silly like this clothing would be connected

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Speaker 1: to him quickly? Is it some sort of clever ruse

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Speaker 1: like he knows he can just say I was staying

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Speaker 1: with her. But there's no proof that I was there,

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Speaker 1: Or is this someone who is so not savvy that

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Speaker 1: they panic and take off, or could it be either

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Speaker 1: of those or option see, I.

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Speaker 2: Think there's all option C because you have a fire

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Speaker 2: that's been set, and so the offender is thinking that

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Speaker 2: if I'm leaving my clothes behind, well they're going to

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Speaker 2: be burned up in the fire. But most of the time,

349
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Speaker 2: when homicides are committed, they're committed by a novice. You know.

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Speaker 2: That's why we're able to catch a lot of these

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Speaker 2: offenders because they have never committed a homicide before, and

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Speaker 2: in the state of panic afterwards, now they're not thinking straight,

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Speaker 2: and in eighteen forty five, they're not worried about DNA

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Speaker 2: evidence or anything else. I think in this situation, if

355
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Speaker 2: Albert is responsible for Maria's homicie side and he's now

356
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Speaker 2: got his clothes that are bloody, and of course the

357
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Speaker 2: blood patterns would be absolutely critical. Are those blood patterns

358
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Speaker 2: consistent with the violence that was done to Maria? Are

359
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: they more consistent with Albert finding Maria and maybe going

360
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 2: up and trying to render aid or check on her,

361
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 2: and that's why there's blood on his clothing. But the

362
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Speaker 2: fact that he's taking the clothes off and doesn't alert

363
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,359
Speaker 2: anybody that there's a problem with Maria, would suggest to that, no,

364
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,120
Speaker 2: he's got some involvement with Maria's homicide. But I do

365
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Speaker 2: think that if Albert is the one that killed Maria

366
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Speaker 2: and now he's changing clothes because he recognizes he can't

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Speaker 2: be walking around and with bloody clothes on, and then

368
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: he sets the fire, his expectation is is that the

369
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Speaker 2: evidence that he's leaving behind is going to be burned up,

370
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Speaker 2: and that being a resident within that same room, staying

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Speaker 2: with Maria, he naturally is going to come under suspicion

372
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Speaker 2: the direct evidence that links him to the homicide is

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Speaker 2: going to be gone in his mind because of the fire.

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Speaker 1: Let me describe the scene once the smoke is gone.

375
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Speaker 1: So you've got this clothing everywhere that can be directly

376
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Speaker 1: linked to Albert. And in fact, we know that Albert

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00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: has been staying with Maria for the last few nights,

378
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Speaker 1: including the night that it sounds like this all happened.

379
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you more about their relationship in a minute.

380
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: But back to the crime scene. Investigators say the walls

381
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Speaker 1: were spattered with blood everywhere, which I am assuming you're

382
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Speaker 1: going to say, is not surprising at all, considering that

383
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Speaker 1: her neck was cut so badly that she was nearly decapitated.

384
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Speaker 1: Would you expect, what is it spray off everywhere? Based

385
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Speaker 1: on that?

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Speaker 2: Right now, you've indicated that she only has her throat

387
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Speaker 2: to cut. Does she have other wounds like defensive injuries

388
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Speaker 2: on her hands or on her arms?

389
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Speaker 1: Now, not that they see, except for of course she's burned.

390
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: Different parts of her body are burned. But it looks

391
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Speaker 1: like this was just a one thing, one slash, and

392
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Speaker 1: that was it.

393
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Speaker 2: So when somebody's and their heart is pumping, and now

394
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 2: you cut their throat to the point to where the

395
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: carotid arteries are exposed, you can get this what's called

396
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Speaker 2: an arterial spurt. You know, so the heart pumps, the

397
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 2: arteries are now exposed, they're open, and the blood will

398
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: gush out and then as the heart fades. You don't

399
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: have that. It's usually only a few the description that

400
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 2: there's blood all over the walls. It's like, well, no,

401
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 2: that's not what you would see. Typically with just a

402
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: single injury like the throat being cut, there may be

403
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: an arterial spurt that is seen, but it's not going

404
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: to be going all over the room, like the way

405
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: that it sounds like this description is portraying. Sometimes these

406
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: descriptions are exaggerated because the person that is seeing it

407
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 2: is relatively naive to what they're looking at. It may

408
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 2: be a large arterial spurt in one location, but they

409
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: interpret it as, oh, my god, there's blood all over

410
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: the room. Well, no, not just from a single cut

411
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 2: to the throat. There's more going on, and maybe they're

412
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 2: just not recognizing, Oh, she in warding off this razor.

413
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: You know, she had fingers cut, or she had her

414
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: forearms cut, and now as she's flailing, there's cast off

415
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: droplets that are ending up being deposited in a variety

416
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 2: of locations within the room.

417
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: Well, this sounds odd, the coroner says, because of the

418
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: blood spatter, he believes that her body was dragged from

419
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 1: the bed where they think that she was set on

420
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: fire to the floor. But there's a chair near the

421
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: head of the bed that contains a pool of blood.

422
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: So what would happen So right by the head of

423
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Speaker 1: the bed where presumably she's in a nightgown, she's in

424
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: And then he says he thinks that there's this pool

425
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: of blood on the chair and then she's dragged and

426
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: this is how we get a lot of blood on walls.

427
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Speaker 1: Does that make sense to.

428
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 2: You, Oh, there's some conflicting information here. So if her

429
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: throat is cut on the bed, there would most certainly

430
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 2: be blood on the bed. There may even be this

431
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: arterial spurt that I'm talking about. If she's drug off

432
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: the bed onto the floor, then most certainly that would

433
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 2: be very apparent with the blood staining. The pool on

434
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: the chair would indicate that she had been bleeding if

435
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: it's her blood, and that's the important thing. Right now,

436
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,959
Speaker 2: there's the assumption that all the blood is hers, But

437
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: we could have a second bleeder that is no longer

438
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: present inside, possibly the offender got cut. When you have

439
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: pools of blood, that indicates that you've got a bleeding

440
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: injury in which the blood is able to accumulate in

441
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: that position, so that bleeding injury is stationary at that

442
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: location for a period of time. Or you can have

443
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: blood drain from one location and flow to a second

444
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: location to create a secondary blood pool. But right now

445
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: I'm having a hard time visualizing what this coroner is

446
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: saying in terms of this. He's saying she was killed

447
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: on the bed and then drug down onto the floor.

448
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: How does the blood get on the chair? Was that

449
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: just a secondary pool or did she end up resting

450
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: on this chair for a period of time before her

451
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: final position where she set on fire. I just don't

452
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: know right now.

453
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: Right They find a letter in the room that's addressed

454
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: to Albert Terrell, the man who is last seen with Maria.

455
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: The witnesses say that he had spent that night with her,

456
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: as I said, and had been with her the last

457
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: few previous nights. This is a letter from a woman

458
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: named Mary Anne Cassimer, and she says so. The letter

459
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: is described as having poor spelling, but written in a

460
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: neat female hand. Anyway, I don't know what that means.

461
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: Some of the best handwriting I've ever seen has been

462
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: my men. And this letter says, dear friend, excuse the

463
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: liberty I take in writing you, but I can't think

464
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: the cause of you not calling to see me. I

465
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: suppose you have your reasons. I wish you to call today,

466
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: for I want to see you very much. If I

467
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: have offended you in any way, I am very sorry,

468
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: and I hope you will forgive me. Do call and

469
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: explain to me, the cause of your staying away so

470
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: very long. That's very nineteenth century sort of courting talk,

471
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: like she's obviously gotten her feelings hurt. But Albert is

472
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: comfortable enough with Maria to bring personal letters into this

473
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: room and have his clothing all over the place. So

474
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: to me, it actually speaks a little bit more to

475
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: the intimacy of Maria and Albert because I figured, well,

476
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: I mean, he's spending all his time with Maria and

477
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: not paying attention to mary Anne. But do you read

478
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: something different in there?

479
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I'm confused. So this letter is from

480
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: mary Anne to Albert.

481
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: Yes, and he brought it with him, Okay, and they

482
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: find the letter in Maria's room.

483
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he has a prior relay relationship with a woman,

484
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: mary Anne, and that woman obviously still has an emotional

485
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: connection to Albert, and that's why she is writing. And

486
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: this is a letter that is found in the room

487
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: that now Albert is sharing with Maria. But at this

488
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: point we don't know if he's sharing that letter with Maria.

489
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: It's just something that's present within the room. I don't

490
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: know if I could draw any conclusions as to what

491
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: that means about Albert and Maria's relationship. I think he

492
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: just obviously has this letter with him, but he's staying

493
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: with Maria for several days, and is she a sex worker?

494
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: It says that she's been working in a brothel. Now

495
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't say sex worker. It could have been something else, okay,

496
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: But nobody is indicating that Maria has been paid for anything.

497
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: And this could be that situation where it's Albert and

498
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: Maria who are one of those couples who is unmarried

499
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: and wants to spend time together. But we need to

500
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: know a little bit more about Albert too to find

501
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: out if he needed to cover up something.

502
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: Well, the fact that he's not there and the fact

503
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: that his clothes are there that have blood on them,

504
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: he obviously is a suspect until determined that he is

505
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: not involved in Maria's homicide.

506
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: Yep. They searched the room and they find a pair

507
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: of keys in her bedroom that belonged to a boarding

508
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: house where he had a room, and they open up

509
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: a trunk and there's more of his clothing. So I mean,

510
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: this seems to be going in that direction that Albert

511
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: is connected to Maria. The people at the boarding house

512
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: where Maria was staying. Said that Albert and Maria were

513
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: fighting and making up over and over again. It sounds

514
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: like over the course of the days leading up to

515
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: her death and even the actual day, they were fighting

516
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: and making up. And so you know, we know that

517
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: at this point this is a volatile relationship. And the

518
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 1: owners of the boarding house say that he had been

519
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: at the house with Maria the day before she died

520
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: from four until four thirty pm on that afternoon, and

521
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: then went out and came back at eight o'clock. So

522
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: so far, it just seems like this is a slam dunk,

523
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: and it seems like if the DA wants to prosecute Albert,

524
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: this is going to be not a problem unless you

525
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: think I'm wrong. And there's not enough direct evidence let's say,

526
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: no fingerprints because they hadn't perfected that technique yet, and

527
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 1: a lot of other things that we're missing. Is this

528
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: a circumstantial case.

529
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's circumstances that are that are pointing at Albert.

530
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: But when Albert leaves at four thirty, is Maria Seene

531
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: after that time still alive? Yes, okay, she is. And

532
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: then Albert comes.

533
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: Back at eight o'clock.

534
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: Okay, and then now we have these ear witnesses that

535
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: hear a woman scream, and Maria would not be able

536
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: to scream with her throat to cut the way it was,

537
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: so that scream occurred before the throat was cut, if

538
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: that was Maria's scream, And then we hear the heavy

539
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: footfalls down the stairs. At this point, do we know

540
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: that those footfalls are from Albert leaving?

541
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: We don't know yet, but more things will be revealed

542
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: in a little bit. So we have between eight pm

543
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: if he's the last person to see her alive, and

544
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: this whole thing starts at around four point thirty the

545
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: next morning, That's when they hear the screaming. So he

546
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: returns home at eight pm, and then something happens between

547
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: eight pm. Either he leaves and someone else does this,

548
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: she does it to herself, which I doubt, or he

549
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: does this sometime between eight pm and four ish in

550
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: the morning the next morning.

551
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: Or you have another person in there that is in

552
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: there with Albert. Yep, right now, we can't say it's

553
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: just a single offender.

554
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk a little bit more about Albert and Maria,

555
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: because boy do they have a backstory. Here comes some victimology,

556
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: which I predict you will say is huge. Is that right? Huge?

557
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: I love it the way he said, Am I becoming

558
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: too predictable?

559
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: No? No, no, no, I like to hear it. I

560
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: think it's important. You're right, victimology is huge. So let's

561
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,239
Speaker 1: talk about Maria. She was born Maria Dunn, and she

562
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: eventually marries a shoemaker named James Bickford. That's how she

563
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: becomes Mary Bickford. She was sixteen years old around eighteen forty,

564
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: not surprising time to be married. The couple settles in Bangor, Maine,

565
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: and they have a child who dies in infancy. After

566
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: that happens, Maria goes to Boston with some friends and

567
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,479
Speaker 1: she falls in love with the city, as many people have.

568
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: She goes back to Maine and she tells James, let's

569
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: go to Boston. He says, nope, I don't really want

570
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: to do that, so she goes by herself. She says,

571
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, go kick rocks. I'm here. I want to

572
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: go to the big city. And eventually James wants his

573
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: wife back, so he follows her to Boston and that's

574
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: when he finds out that she's been working in a brothel.

575
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: And he said as nevermind, and he goes back to Bangor,

576
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: Maine without her. I don't know when it says working

577
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: in a brothel. I don't know if it is something

578
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: other than sex work, or it could be sex work,

579
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter. That's the situation. He found her,

580
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: and this is how she ends up in Boston by herself, okay.

581
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: And then at some point she befriends Albert.

582
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: Yes, she meets Albert, who is get ready very wealthy,

583
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: very married, and a father of two.

584
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: Okay.

585
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a justification if he

586
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: did murder her or what happened. But I didn't expect

587
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: any of that when I read about Albert. I just

588
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: thought he was just some guy, I don't know, just

589
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: average Joe. And it doesn't sound like he's average Joe.

590
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: No. And is mary Anne his wife?

591
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: It does not seem so. No, mari Anne is not

592
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: his wife, okay. And Albert is very complicated, so let

593
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: me talk about him. His family lives in Weymouth, Massachuset,

594
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: sits and his father is a very prominent politician. He

595
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: and Maria have an affair, So it does not seem

596
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: like this is a sex worker situation, at least between

597
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: the two of them. They are one of those couples

598
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: pretending to be husband and wife. They go by fake names.

599
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: People who know the couples say they are, as we

600
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: already know, very volatile together. They fight a lot. One

601
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: this is actually a sad quote to me. One border

602
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: at the house, at the Lawrence House where Maria was

603
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: once said that Maria told her that she didn't mind

604
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: fighting with Albert because they had such a good time

605
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: making up. So it was that kind of a relationship.

606
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: Obviously very contentious, hot and cold. It sounds like Albert

607
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: has some anger control issues in all likelihood, maybe Maria does.

608
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: So. Interesting in the summer of eighteen forty five, which

609
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: is a month before Maria died, Albert is arrested and

610
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: he's charged with adultery. And remember we talked about the

611
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: heartbreak lawsuits where women could sue men who take their

612
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: virginity and obviously downgrade the women's status in that society.

613
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, you know, obviously that's that's just part

614
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: of the times, right. Yeah. You still see human nature

615
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: kind of come out, and even though the penalty is

616
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: so severe, people are willing to pursue you know these

617
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: if you want to call it a crime of passion,

618
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: you know, it's so weird to think of it that way,

619
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: but you know they're willing to risk, you know, being

620
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: charged criminally in order to be able to get into

621
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: these relationships.

622
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: He's arrested because he and Maria are at a different

623
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: boarding house. He is taking a big risk, the son

624
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: of a politician, lots of money to kids, a wife.

625
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: He is with Maria sneaking around and a relative of

626
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: his saw them, turned them in, and his wife appeared

627
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: in court and asked for leniency. No word on what

628
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: his sentence was going to be because the trial was

629
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: postponed for six months. And then all this stuff happens

630
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: with Maria and everything changes. So there's a lot going

631
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: on in this man's life, a lot. You know, he's

632
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: got a wife who's willing to go bat but probably

633
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: not for this, and just he's a mess. Albert is

634
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: a mess when he could have had it sounds like

635
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: a pretty easy going life and he has messed it up.

636
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: Well, and now we get into Okay, so what's the

637
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: motive for Maria being killed? And who would want Maria dead?

638
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: You know, first, you know, I from the crime of adultery.

639
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if Maria would have to testify, and

640
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: is this an elimination of a witness, a critical witness

641
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: to that. But you also have a wife that is

642
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: finding out about Maria. You also have what appears to

643
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: be another girlfriend, Mary Anne, who's yearning to get back together.

644
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 2: It sounds like with Albert, you know, and does mary

645
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 2: Anne find out about Ria? So there appears to be

646
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: multiple individuals that potentially want to cause Maria harm, including

647
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: Albert himself.

648
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a host of suspects potentially, but we

649
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: know Albert was the last one to be seen with her,

650
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: so it's a mystery so far. The day after she's killed,

651
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: we look to our main suspect, Albert and say where

652
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: the hell are you? And he has been seen on

653
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: the Weymouth Bridge, which is about fifteen miles south of

654
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: Beacon Hill, and the officers are sent there as well

655
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: as to Salem and New Bedford and Lowell and Wister,

656
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: all of these different places in the surrounding area to

657
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: find this guy. A witness comes forward, who's a horse

658
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: driver from a stable on Court Street in Boston. He says,

659
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: I think I have this guy. I drove someone to

660
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: Weymouth from Boston, matches Albert's description. Another witness reports, overhearing

661
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: Albert's conversation with the driver, they heard Albert say that

662
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: he was in quote in a scrape. And it is

663
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: becoming complicated. And I know these are tiny details that

664
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: just make Albert look very, very guilty. That's how I

665
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: feel is he looks very guilty. But this story is

666
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,439
Speaker 1: going to take a big turn in a little bit.

667
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: But does he look guilty to you? Or is this

668
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: still circumstantial no definitive proof based on the lack of

669
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: forensic tools we have in eighteen forty five.

670
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's still circumstantial. I mean, there is physical evidence.

671
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 2: Albert's clothes have blood on him. They can't determine whose

672
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: blood it is, But right now I'm just going to

673
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: presume that's Maria's blood, which would indicate he was in

674
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: the room at the time. Maria has a single bleeding injury,

675
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: you know, the throat being cut. But I can't say

676
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: with just that evidence that Albert has one that cut

677
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: Maria's throat, cut her ear, maybe took the earring. Was

678
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 2: there a second person in the room. However, Albert is

679
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: prime suspect, no question about it. And the fact that

680
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: it sounds like he's fleet. It's not like he's standing

681
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: there crying about what happened to Maria. You know, he

682
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: is gone in the wind. So that also lends suspicion

683
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: that he had direct involvement in Maria's homicide. Is there

684
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: somebody else because as I mentioned before, there appears to

685
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: be other women that potentially have motive to see harm

686
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: come to Maria. You know, could they have been present

687
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: confront Maria and then now Albert and some other women

688
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: are running out of this boarding house together. But I

689
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: think at this point my investigation is going to be

690
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: centered on Albert and trying to get him into custody

691
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: and see what he says happened.

692
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be interesting because all of this detail that

693
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: you're talking about is going to be very important very soon.

694
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: Albert is clearly on the run. They go to his

695
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: house in Weymouth. He is not there. His wife says,

696
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: no clue, I have no idea where he is. He

697
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: has gone north towards Montreal. He goes on a ship

698
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: bound for Liverpool. It hits bad weather, he has to

699
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: turn back. Remember, he has money, he goes to New York,

700
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: he gets on another ship. He wants to go to

701
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: New Orleans, and now we're going south. Finally, the authorities

702
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts make contact with authorities in Louisiana, and on

703
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: December fifth, so this is probably about six weeks or

704
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: so after Maria's murder, Albert is arrested on a ship

705
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,959
Speaker 1: in the Gulf of Mexico. That is not the historic part.

706
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: That's a big deal though, So they were really pursuing

707
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: this again. Look at the media. Beautiful woman throat slashed

708
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: found in a Beacon Hill house. Prominent, wealthy man who's

709
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: married with children is the prime suspect. This is eighteen

710
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: hundreds media fodder right here, and he is finally caught

711
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: and brought back to Massachusetts.

712
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: They must have been using some resources. I'm just unaware

713
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: because all I can think of I'm envisioning the old

714
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: wild Wild West wanted posters right with a hand drawn

715
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: sketch on it and the name and saying if you

716
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 2: see this guy, if you recognize this guy, you know,

717
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: hold on to him. But yeah, no, that's that's amazing

718
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: that they were able to track him down in the

719
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: Gulf of Mexico. But so now he's he's arrested. I'm

720
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: assuming he's brought back to Massachusetts.

721
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: So what happened was they received a tip that was

722
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: a fugitive that was heading their way on the boat.

723
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: So it sounds like they got the tip that he

724
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: was likely on the boat, and they were able to

725
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: relay that information to an authority who was on the

726
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: boat with his description, and they were able to arrest

727
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: him there. So it sounds like this was something that

728
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: happened sort of quickly. I don't but there was no

729
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: radio then, so yeah, I mean, it's pretty miraculous. But anyway,

730
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: he is arrested, he is brought back to Boston. He

731
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: is very wealthy, remember, and he gets a defense attorney

732
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: who is a very prominent lawyer who is a US

733
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: senator named Rufus Tudah and Rufus Judah looks at all

734
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 1: of this, the brutality of the throat slashing, the fire,

735
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: his reaction, and he comes up with the defense, which

736
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: is why we're even talking about this. He says, Albert Terrell,

737
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: if he did this, did it because he was sleepwalking.

738
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: And it's the first instance of anyone using the defense

739
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: of sleepwalking in the United States. Eighteen forty five, and

740
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: now we have to see if it works. Have you

741
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: done many stories about sleepwalking? I know there's one on

742
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: a TV series and I think it's on Hulu that

743
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: I saw, But I don't know much about the sleepwalking defense.

744
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: I can't think of any cases I've been involved with

745
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: in which that was the defense. I'm aware that that

746
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: has been used as a defense, and they don't necessarily

747
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 2: the defense side doesn't have to prove. They just have

748
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 2: to get the jury, somebody on the jury to leave.

749
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: That's a possibility, you know. So interesting, Okay, I kind

750
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: of want to hear how this proceeds.

751
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the defense starts working on the public perception

752
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: of Maria, just to take it down a notch and

753
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: make her so unsympathetic.

754
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: You know.

755
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: He really highlights leaving her husband, going to the big city,

756
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 1: working in a brothel, lots of outside of marriage relationships,

757
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: a volatile relationship you know, with Albert, which of course

758
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: Albert is painted as being the victim, not the aggressor.

759
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: And so this is starting to shift the public opinion

760
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: away from the poor young woman, beautiful woman who's been

761
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: brutalized by this man, and something a little bit different.

762
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: So they're not saying that someone else did it. They're

763
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 1: saying that it was somehow justified because Albert has a history,

764
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: supposedly of sleepwalking. So let's start with the prosecution, who

765
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: simply says, look at all the evidence we have, of

766
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: course he did it. The problem is is that, well,

767
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: when the prosecutor says, did somebody slit her throat, he

768
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: said sure, yes. Of course, under cross examination he steps

769
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: back a little bit and says, it is possible she

770
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: did it to herself. Now, you just finished saying that

771
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: it could have happened, that you've seen that happen before

772
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: they bring it up. They do settle Paul on the

773
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: sleepwalking defense, but it was an interesting point. The defense

774
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: made them say, essentially, could this have happened? And he

775
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: said sure, yeah.

776
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: As I mentioned before, I did have a suicide in

777
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: which the man cut his own throat. But the throat

778
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: incision is very superficial relative to what is being described

779
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: as what happened to Maria, and what I have seen

780
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: with Maria's type of neck incision that is much more

781
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: in line with homicidal violence than with suicide from my perspective,

782
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: with the man that cut his own throat. There were

783
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,280
Speaker 2: hesitation marks, which is typical like when somebody cuts their wrist,

784
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 2: oftentimes they are running the knife or the razor over

785
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 2: their wrist multiple times, and so you see these linear, superficial,

786
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 2: almost like an abrasion looking marks before they cut it. Well,

787
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: this man had those types of marks on his wrist

788
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 2: as well as on his neck before he cut into

789
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: his own throat. I don't buy Maria doing this to herself.

790
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: With the way it's been described. The argument of sleepwalking.

791
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 2: What I would be keying in on from the kind

792
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: of just the reconstruction of the crime and the wherewithal

793
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 2: that the offender is exhibiting in this case, pears that

794
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: Maria is likely killed up on the bed. She's now

795
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: being drugged down onto the floor. The offender is changing

796
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: clothes because he recognizes that he's got blood on the clothes,

797
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: he's setting fire. There is a lot of recognition, I

798
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 2: have just committed a crime. I need to cover my

799
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: tracks kind of argues against this is somebody's sleepwalking. I

800
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: don't see somebody sleepwalking going through all of these steps

801
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: to cover up the crime. And then you've got the

802
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: fugitive aspect running off Yeah, I think it's very easy

803
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 2: for a prosecutor to undermine the sleepwalking defense in this case.

804
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see and listen to the

805
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: background here. So the defense is pretty convincing, at least

806
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: convincing to the public. So a neighbor says, the night

807
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: that this happened, right after the murder, the scream, the fire, everything,

808
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: Albert knocks on her door and makes a strange gurgling sound.

809
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: When she answered, he asked, are there some things here

810
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: for me? Just a random question, and she said that

811
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: he looked either asleep or crazy, one or the other.

812
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: So is Albert asleep and this is truly a defense

813
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: or is he some criminal mastermind who has figured out

814
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: a defense already or is there something in between?

815
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: Who is seeing Albert knock on the door?

816
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: Neighbor a neighbor right next to the boarding house.

817
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 2: And the neighbor is saying that Albert has kind of

818
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: got a gurgling sound to his voice.

819
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: He said, he made a strange gurgling sound when she

820
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: answered the door, and he said, are there some things

821
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: here for me? She said that he was asleep or crazy,

822
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: And remember the borders of the house. Said the guy

823
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: who went out the front door with the heavy footfalls,

824
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: made some sort of a weird noise that didn't sound

825
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: like words, but it sounded like he was trying to

826
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: alert people to the fire. Presumably, So weird behavior out

827
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: of Albert is what people are describing.

828
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, right now, I really can't. I mean,

829
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 2: is he purposely trying to stage this? It seems too

830
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 2: far fetched that he's thinking that far ahead, in which

831
00:46:54,880 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: now I better set up this sleepwalking defense and going

832
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: to exhibit these these weird behaviors. What we don't know

833
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: is what was Albert's state of mind. Was he under

834
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 2: the influence of any drugs, was he under the influence

835
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: of alcohol that night? But also going to if he

836
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: is purposely trying to exhibit these strange behaviors to come

837
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: up with some sort of let's say, insanity defense or

838
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: something else, knowing he's going to kill Maria. That also

839
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: goes to this forethought, which again just undermines the defense,

840
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 2: where now you've got the sleepwalking angle. So I don't know,

841
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not sure what to make of these behaviors. Upfront,

842
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: It's still those behaviors do not explain away the blood

843
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: at Albert's close the flight, you know, so there's there's

844
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: still i think solid, circumstantial aspects and physical evidence. To

845
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 2: be frank, that seems too strongly at Albert.

846
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's continue on because we get a little

847
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: bit of background if we believe his family. So members

848
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: of his family are called to the stand and they

849
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: all say that this guy had a history of sleepwalking.

850
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: They said he started sleepwalking when he was six years old.

851
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: That once when he was sleepwalking, Albert grabbed his brother,

852
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: pulled down the curtains, smashed windows, pulled his cousin out

853
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: of bed, and threatened him with a knife, all while

854
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: seemingly under the influence of sleep. When he got to

855
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: Weymouth the day that Maria died, that he told people

856
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: there he was evading the police because of his adultery

857
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: charges nothing about murder, and when they said we have

858
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: just found out that you are wanted for murder, they said,

859
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: he was genuinely shocked. He had no clue that that

860
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: was happening. So that is what we are left with,

861
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 1: at least with these kind of testimonies from people who

862
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: know him and his background. What do you think about that?

863
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not buying it. You know, I think the

864
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 2: important thing is is that you know, the family is

865
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: saying that he did these acts when he was younger,

866
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: while he was asleep, but that's their perception of the

867
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: state he is in. Is he doing that he's fully awake.

868
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 2: Is he doing this but is conveying to others that

869
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: he's under the influence under sleep You know, I still

870
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: just I mean, think about the acts of the offender

871
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: to kill Maria and to try to cover things up.

872
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 2: You know, you've got a fire that's been set in

873
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 2: two different locations. Person has to go track down whatever

874
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: was used to start those fires. Person positioned Maria's body

875
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 2: on the floor in order to probably facilitate setting the

876
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: body on fire. You know, there's just so much interaction.

877
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 2: I would need to hear, like from the current day,

878
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 2: I would want to hear from experts who who can

879
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: convey whether or not somebody who is technically sleepwalking can

880
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 2: mentally process all the things the offender in this case

881
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 2: had to do to commit this crime, to try to

882
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 2: cover up the crime, and to escape. Would that be

883
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: somebody who's sleepwalking would be able to do? I just

884
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: don't see it.

885
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So we will go through now and talk about

886
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 1: the experts. The dean of Harvard Medical School says, it

887
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 1: is possible for someone to commit murder and then flee.

888
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: I don't think he said flee for six weeks and

889
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: be completely under the influence of this. But we have

890
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: a credible witness that the jury hears get on the

891
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: stand and say this. Then you've got this really well

892
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: known defense attorney who's been trained by Daniel Webster, who's

893
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: a very well known attorney, who gives us six hour speech.

894
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: Of course, no offense attorneys, but this is my dad

895
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: would give me a six hour speech about the sleepwalking

896
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: defense the first time it's ever used. And the press

897
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: says this is the most ingenious and ably argued argument

898
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 1: they had ever heard. Easily impressed press, I'm pretty sure

899
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: now I'm.

900
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: Going to play Devil's advocate a little bit here. So

901
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 2: let's think about Okay, it is possible for people who

902
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: sleepwalk to commit this level of isolence and demonstrate this

903
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: forethought and you know, complex thinking while under the influence

904
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,439
Speaker 2: of sleeper while asleep. So how come we don't have

905
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: more homicides while people are asleep? Is it possible? I

906
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: have a through marriage a family member who during a

907
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: dream state had reached out and grabbed his wife and

908
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: woke up, you know, after she starts fighting back, right.

909
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 2: So it seems like if this was something that was possible,

910
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: then we would have more of these types of cases

911
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: over the decades. And I personally haven't seen this either.

912
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: A defense attorney who is working very hard. He's put

913
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: an expert on the stand who says, yes, it's possible.

914
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: He's put family members on the stand that say Albert

915
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: has a history of doing this. He doesn't seem to

916
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: have a history of violence. So the jury deliberates for

917
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: two hours, and I'm betting, you know what, the verdict is.

918
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 2: Here to be Frank, I think it could go either way,

919
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 2: you know, because really with the sleepwalking defense, I, of

920
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 2: course am. I think it's a ridiculous defense. But I

921
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 2: could see where you could have a juror hearing from

922
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 2: this Harvard expert saying it's a possibility, and all you

923
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: need is one juror to go, I have reasonable doubt,

924
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: you know, And so you either have a hung jury.

925
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: I don't think you'd get all twelve, but I could

926
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 2: see where he could have a hung jury. Usually when

927
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 2: jurors deliberate that quickly. I think you've probably got a conviction.

928
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: They acquitted him, and for the arson too, by the way, okay,

929
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: totally quit it. Wow.

930
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

931
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 1: And he does get busted for the adultery, three years

932
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: hard labor for cheating on your wife. The ending for

933
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: Albert is in eighteen fifty five. Ten years later, he's

934
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: arrested in Portsmouth, New Hampshire for robbing sailors on the

935
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 1: US constitution. He's obviously bad news, but he got away

936
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: clearly with murdering Maria Bickford. And I think part of

937
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 1: it is victim shaming. The judge seemed to issue instructions

938
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: that were a little victim shaming also about her character.

939
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: And just of course, we cannot ever underestimate the power

940
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: of money and the quality of the attorneys. And this

941
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: is what we say over and over again. Money talks

942
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: in this country in the law, and it is unfair

943
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: that this guy got away with it. And I think

944
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that maybe within the hours afterwards there's

945
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: some kind of something with sleepwalking or being in some

946
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: sort of state, But to go on the run for

947
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: six weeks, obviously that is not the case in this story.

948
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on sleepwalking. I know that there

949
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: are stories out there, but I think in this case

950
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: it is not right. And I know you agree.

951
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: Just take a look at the relationship history, you know,

952
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: this contentious, volatile relationship. I think everything points to they

953
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: may have had an argument that night, Albert is upset,

954
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: maybe there's something else going on with other relationships that

955
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 2: he has, but ultimately he intentionally cut Maria's throat and

956
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: tried to cover that up with the fire and then

957
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: he went on the lamb. And I don't buy the

958
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 2: sleepwalking thing at all.

959
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: And I wonder if that mysterious letter from Mariann is

960
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: what the trigger was here. I wonder if she found it.

961
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: I don't know why he would have brought it. I

962
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: wonder if she found it and got mad and this

963
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: was a reaction. I mean, this doesn't seem like premeditated.

964
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: This seems like shut up and a big fight. And

965
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: they had been fighting, but this is the first time

966
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: people have reported any kind of violence at all. So

967
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: I was just trying to think, like, what would have happened?

968
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: And I know you asked that, but that letter being

969
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: out seems like probably not a great idea for Albert

970
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: to leave it laying around, So I wonder if she

971
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 1: found it and that's what happened.

972
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's a really good point. I

973
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 2: didn't think about that, But yet the letter from Mary Anne.

974
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: I imagine Maria knows who Albert's wife, at least Albert's

975
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: wife's name, and is recognizing, oh, here's another woman, and

976
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 2: confronted him and he twisted off.

977
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems the most likely thing to me. I'm

978
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 1: always interested in what I would think would be a

979
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: creative defense, and this one just in this case. I'm

980
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: not making commentary on all these other cases because I'm

981
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: not an expert on it, but in this case, this

982
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: is BS and I'm just sorry for her family, or

983
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: her friends or anybody who cared about this that this

984
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: is what the result was. But it does show victim

985
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: shaming does work in court. And I've done many storesorries

986
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 1: about this. It does work. It's awful. So you know,

987
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: this is a sad story, but teaches you a lot

988
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: and boy historic story too, because it does come up

989
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: every once in a while. It just is not what

990
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: you're saying. The prevalence of it isn't. It's just not there.

991
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even with the three years of hard labor,

992
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 2: Albert got off easy. He probably would have been subjected

993
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: to far worse from his wife for the adultery than

994
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 2: the three years of hard labor. But yes, wow, okay,

995
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: that Yeah, that case didn't go the way that I

996
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: was expecting it to go.

997
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: Well, we're wrapping this up and I'm going to head

998
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: to this volleyball game now where I'm going to take

999
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: out all of my pent up aggression toward Albert on

1000
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: a group of thirteen year old girls. We'll see how

1001
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: this goes. This is not going to go well. They're

1002
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: tall at thirteen, and I think I'm going to get

1003
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 1: spiked on. So we'll see. This was a good case

1004
00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: for us to revisit. It's just more information for you

1005
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: and me going forward. And the more we talk about

1006
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: these historic cases and you pick up little details. Now

1007
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: you know what footballs are. I don't have to take

1008
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: the time to explain to you or to you the

1009
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 1: listener what a footfall is. I can just save that

1010
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: time for more important stuff. So the more vernacular we

1011
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: get down from the seventeen and nineteen and eighteenth century,

1012
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: it would be great.

1013
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to be starting to talk like people

1014
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 2: from the seventeen hundreds pretty soon.

1015
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah you get ready, get ready? Okay, Paul, Well, I

1016
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: will see you next week with a non sleep walking story.

1017
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 1: God willing, We'll see.

1018
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: At don't break anything at the volleyball game.

1019
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: Hi, Well, I'll trom boy. I'll try not to have

1020
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: a good one you too. Bye bye. This has been

1021
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: an exactly right production for.

1022
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot

1023
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1024
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1025
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler.

1026
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1027
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryvogel.

1028
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1029
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1030
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1031
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1032
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1033
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1034
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1035
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1036
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: cases is also available now