1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast, 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. It's Monday, October three. Perhaps you've heard of 4 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: Molly White. So one thing that I really care about 5 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: is taking information that's not always the easiest to find 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: and trying to make it more accessible to people. The 7 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: software engineer and crypto skeptic has been profiled in The 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: Washington Post, in Fast Company, and The Boston Globe. She 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: has more than eighty thousand followers on her personal Twitter 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: account and more than a hundred thousand on an account 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: called web three is Going Just Great, which is based 12 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: on her website of the same name. These are as 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: you might guess, a chronicle of all the ways at 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: web three is not going so great. Molly, delighted to 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: have you on the show. Thanks for having me. It's 16 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: my absolute pleasure. Why don't you tell our listeners a 17 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: little bit more about you. I'm a software engineer and 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: a researcher um and I've been focusing pretty heavily on 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: researching crypto, blockchains, web three everything related to that, and 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: I run the website web three is going just great 21 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: where I keep track of some of the hacks and 22 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: scams and other general disasters that have been happening in 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: the crypto space. In other words, Web three is not 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: going just great. It's a bit of a sarcastic title. Yes, 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: what got you interested in becoming kind of the chronicler 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: of our time as it were, of these various as 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: you put it, hacks, scams, and disasters. I'm a bit 28 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: of a chronicler by nature. I think I have kind 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: of Wikipedia editor for you know, over a decade, and 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: that's just something that I've always been really passionate about. 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: But around the middle of last year or so, it 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: felt like crypto was really reaching a bit of a 33 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: fever pitch when it came to the marketing and the 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: hype and the social media coverage. It was, you know, 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: it was pretty extreme around everyone should be investing in crypto, 36 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: you should be putting your retirement money into it. You 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: could become a millionaire overnight, all these types of things, 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: and I felt like we weren't seeing as much of 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: the other side of things, where projects were getting hacked 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: for sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars, people were losing 41 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: their money because of individual hacks or because of you know, 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: not securing their crypto well enough. And there was sort 43 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: of a very serious, you know, predatory side of things 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: that I felt like wasn't getting enough coverage, and so 45 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: you know, I felt like I would do my part 46 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: to try to change that. Well, you've certainly redirected a 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: lot of the conversation in ways that are arguably more 48 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: constructive from a consumer protection standpoints then had necessarily been 49 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: the case before. But one of the things I'm sort 50 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: of most interested in, and we have a very nerdy audience, 51 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: so it's like, feel free to go deep into this. 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: When you call yourself a natural kind of chronicler, an 53 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: archivist as it were, how do you even keep track? 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: Because I say this as an editor whose literal job 55 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: is staying on top of, you know, the various things 56 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: in crypto and every morning and I'm I wake up 57 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: and I'm surprised by something like, what's your curatorial process? 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: How do you decide what things kind of rise to 59 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: the occasion of being worthy of inclusion? For you, it's 60 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: a pretty uh holistic process, I would say, you know, 61 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of just based on vibes. Typically all include 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: things if there was, you know, a major monetary amount, 63 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: so anything over like a hundred thousand dollars they'll typically include. 64 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: But I also will try to include things that show that, 65 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the things that are going really wrong 66 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: are affecting individual people really badly. And so even if 67 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: a monetary amount might not be enormous compared to what 68 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: an institutional loss might be, it still feels useful to 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 1: describe that, you know, individual people are sometimes losing their 70 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: entire savings in crypto, you know, even if for an 71 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: institution it might not be that much money. As far 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: as how I find things, that's pretty all over the place. 73 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: There's a lot of I'm an RSS, you know lover, 74 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: so I have a pretty active RSS feed that I follow, 75 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: and then a lot of stuff comes through on Twitter. 76 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: But you know, one thing that's been great is as 77 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: the site has gotten a little bit bigger and there's 78 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: become more of a devoted readership, a lot of people 79 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: will just send me things, and that's really helpful because 80 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: you can never find everything yourself. That's true. Shout out 81 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: to RSS. I want to pick up on one thing 82 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: that you said, which I think distinguishes your approach from 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: that of others who are cropping up in this space, 84 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: and which is the allowance for the individual and the 85 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: highlighting of individual harms and not just institutional ones. I 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: think one of your more recent and frankly harrowing threads 87 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: was around the individual letters sent by creditors who had 88 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: lost everything in a big kind of crypto bankruptcy sort 89 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: of fall out. Can you talk a little bit more 90 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: about what motivated you to do that and if there's 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: anything that you learned, you know, as you undertook that project. Yeah, 92 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: I mean, so, one thing that I really care about 93 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: is taking information that's not always the easiest to find 94 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: and trying to make it more accessible to people. And 95 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: that's really what I was trying to do when I 96 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: highlighted some of the excerpt from the letters that were 97 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: being sent to the judge in the Celsius and the 98 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: Voyage of bankruptcy cases, because you know they're online, but 99 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: they're in a very obscure place there in these pdf files. 100 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: You know, they're very long and it's a lot of 101 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: reading to do, so I was just trying to sort 102 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: of distill down some of the examples of how people 103 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: were really materially harmed in those particular their cases. And 104 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of cases, it wasn't individuals 105 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: losing millions of dollars, but it was people losing substantial 106 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: amounts of their savings. You know, some of them were retirees, 107 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: some of them had been working for decades and just 108 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: scraping together what extra money they could. You know, some 109 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: of it was earmarked for their children's education. And it 110 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: was really I think illustrative of how sometimes people who 111 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: are getting into crypto are not necessarily what people picture. 112 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: A lot of the time. You know, people will often 113 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: picture young, usually male people who have a little bit 114 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: of extra money that they want to just wildly gamble 115 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: away on crypto, and they're taking these moon shots and 116 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: you know, they might lose it all, they might become rich, 117 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: but you know, ultimately it's not a big deal whatever 118 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: happens to that money. But in this case, that was 119 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: a market difference from what we were seeing in the letters, 120 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: which was people who really thought that this was the 121 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: savings account, that they could actually make interest rates that 122 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: they weren't able to find in the traditional financial market, 123 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: and who were really relying on this money. I mean, 124 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: some people were sending letters about how they couldn't pay 125 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: medical bills. They couldn't you know, they were risks, they 126 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: were at risk of losing their homes because of this bankruptcy, 127 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: and so, you know, I just felt really important to 128 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: make sure that people understood that, you know, there's actually 129 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: real people being harmed out here. It's not just the 130 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: crypto bro moonshot folks who it's like, oh, well, they 131 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: lost their gambling money. I'd like to read one of 132 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: the ones that you highlighted because I book Market, because 133 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: I think it it really described the disconnect in what 134 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: you're describing in terms of you know, people think it's 135 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: like dudes with laser eyes. But here's an example of 136 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: the reality. This was on. You posted this on the 137 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: twenty one of July. I'm a Celsius customer with a 138 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: little more than fifteen thousand dollars worth of deposits that 139 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: are locked up in Celsius. Fifteen thousand dollars may not 140 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: mean a lot to some people, but it is about 141 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: six of my life savings. Losing all my savings will 142 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: have irreparable consequences on the well being of myself and 143 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: my family. I'm ashamed, humiliated, and quite frankly disgusted that 144 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: I put all my trust into this company. I'll be 145 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: spending years trying to make back the money I lost. 146 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: That was one of of these kinds of letters. And 147 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: how are you finding that people are responding to this 148 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: work that you're doing, Because, as you said, you sort 149 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: of started as a countervailing wind right, everything was going 150 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: up in the markets at that time. You know, like 151 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: nobody really wanted to hear from somebody being like, I'm 152 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: not sure if this is all such a good idea. 153 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: I think even in you know, a bearer market, a 154 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: lot of people don't really want to hear what I 155 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: have to say. Um, you know, I think with crypto, 156 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: there's just an overwhelming incentive to be really positive about 157 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: crypto at all costs because so much of crypto it's 158 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: value is based on the belief that the token or 159 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: the n f T or whatever the asset might be, 160 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: will go up in price, and so anyone questioning it 161 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: or criticizing it, you know, is presenting a risk to 162 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: the actual value of the asset. And so even you know, 163 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: when things are going pretty poorly overall in the market, 164 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, individuals really want to keep that hope alive. 165 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: I think, but you know, I think there has been 166 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: more openness to hear the critical perspectives, as you know, 167 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: people have seen that things have gone poorly overall, as 168 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: some skeptics have been predicting. You know, I think that 169 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: it's really easy to brush off critics when you're seeing 170 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: tokens double in price overnight and you know the lines 171 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: are going up. But as we see these collapses, you know, 172 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: of these different crypto projects that were all sort of 173 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: dominoes knocking each other over in this you know, spring 174 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: and summer, I think people have realized that there really 175 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: are serious issues with the industry as a whole, and 176 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: sut the media and the general public have been a 177 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: little more receptive to those viewpoints. Coming up, you'll hear 178 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: more from Molly Whites around what ordinary people need to 179 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: understand about crypto. You've spoken in the past about the 180 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: fact that you have experienced online harassment, you know, in 181 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: kind of various iterations of in the life of a person, 182 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: particularly a woman who has been very visible and very 183 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: online for a long time. I can share because I 184 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: have shared here before that you know I have on 185 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: my team. We will have a report to publish a 186 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: story and then in their d MS or their emails 187 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: or you know, kind of like directly and aggressively. Folks 188 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: will be like, why are you everything from very mild? 189 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: Or you must be a paid shill who is trying 190 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: to you know food bitcoin food being a phrase used 191 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: in crypto world to mean fair uncertainty and doubt um 192 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: or you know, kind of to the extremes of threats 193 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: and you know, other types of things for you know, 194 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: what I would consider as an editor to be like 195 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: a pretty straightforward story about a market movement or or 196 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: or a company doing something. Is there anything in your 197 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: experience of having navigated this world that you think leads 198 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: to this heightening of both emotions and a kind of 199 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: like violent nihilism as it were in some cases. Yeah, 200 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: I mean I think it's related to what I alluded 201 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: to before, which is the financial incentive to be positive 202 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: to you know, promote the idea that the token prices 203 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: or the market as a whole are going to go up. 204 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: But I think there's also a strong ideological component to 205 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: it as well, where people really see crypto as the 206 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: solution to a lot of serious problems, and when someone 207 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: is speaking against you know, the potential of crypto, they 208 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: see that as someone saying, you know, I don't want 209 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: to solve those problems, or you know, you are a 210 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: bad person for trying to solve those problems, which I 211 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: think it's really not the message that a lot of 212 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: people are trying to get across, but it's become twisted, 213 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: I think in the eyes of a lot of people. 214 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think, you know, generally speaking, when you 215 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: threatened someone's bottom line, you know, when when they have 216 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: a lot of investment into you a you know, a 217 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: specific asset and you do something that might cause that 218 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: asset price to change, even if it is fairly unbiased 219 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: reporting or just you know, just describing what is happening 220 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: in the real world, people will respond very, very aggressively 221 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: to that. And I think, you know, the culture in 222 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: crypto has really contributed to that, where people are somewhat 223 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: encouraged to do that and it becomes you know, insular 224 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: movement where that behavior is just completely normalized. Is there 225 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: anything in addition to that financial incentive that you find 226 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: either unusual or distinct about how some of this takes place. 227 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: I think the level that it happens in crypto is unusual. 228 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I've definitely experienced harassment because of my involvement 229 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: with Wikipedia, my coverage of you know, right wing political 230 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: movements in the US, and it's definitely, you know, pretty 231 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: serious in that particular group as well. But with crypto, 232 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: it's a very it's very strange. I think the degree 233 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: to which it's normalized and I don't know if it 234 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: has to do with the amount of people who are 235 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: really anonymous in crypto and so they feel you know, 236 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: protected in saying some really heinous things, but the level 237 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: to which the toxicity has really emerged from crypto is 238 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: pretty unusual, and I think that has been recognized sort 239 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: of in the main stream, where people have this view 240 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: of you know, crypto bros who are you know, have 241 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: the laser eyes and it's sort of everyone. I think 242 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: there's this sort of perception of crypto people as very 243 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: intense and often aggressive, and I guess I would say 244 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: it's not unearned, right. I want to go back to something, 245 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of months ago, when you were 246 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: invited to give a statement to the Financial Stability Oversight 247 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: Counsole and regulating to just all assets, you talked about 248 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: the trade offs of anonymity and pseudonymity, And one of 249 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: the things that you said is it's actually really easy 250 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: for people who think their transactions or privates or that 251 00:14:54,000 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: their identities are obscured to inadvertently out themselves because the 252 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: the level of technical proficiency that you have to actually 253 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: be secret the whole time is relatively high. Can you 254 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: say a little bit more about why highlighting those kinds 255 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: of things for what you called, you know, the quote 256 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: unquote average user is important to you. Yeah, I mean 257 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: I think crypto has, you know, historically been something that's 258 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: been used by people who are very technically proficient and 259 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: who are capable of doing things like self custodying and 260 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: you know, keeping track of all the different wallet addresses 261 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: and secret keys and all these different things. But you know, 262 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years, we've seen these attempts 263 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: to mainstream crypto and to make it something that you know, 264 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: everyone's got an app on their phone and their trading 265 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: crypto day to day and everyone should be putting money 266 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: into it. To some extent, I don't think that it 267 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: is you know, achievable for average people to be using 268 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: crypto in the way that people say that you should be. 269 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: So you know, someone might be able to download an 270 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: app and trade some crypto, but you know, not your keys, 271 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: not your coins. You know, you're supposed to be keeping 272 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: in it in a wallet yourself, maybe a hardware wallet, 273 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: something like that. And when you start to actually look 274 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: into what it takes for someone to do that, it's 275 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: not something that you know, your average person who's not 276 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: a software person, they're not online all the time, can 277 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: really do. And so I think it's alarming that people 278 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: are pushing the idea that crypto is something that you know, 279 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: should become the backbone of a financial system that is 280 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: widely used in society, when that's not achievable at the 281 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: current moment, and they're enormous hurdles to it becoming achievable. Well, first, 282 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: I'll say I find it interesting how many of the 283 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: folks who have spent so much time in and around 284 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: software are some of the biggest skeptics of this message 285 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: that like anyone can do it's totally fine, just like 286 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: slap our user into face one and it's great. But 287 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: if you were asked the question, so someone who is 288 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: not the most tech savvy, but you know, like reasonably 289 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: away of what's going on, at a minimum, understands two 290 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: factor authentication, and they insist, absolutely insist, that they want 291 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 1: to get involved in crypto. And you could give them 292 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: one piece of caution or advice, what would that be. 293 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's pretty cliche, but don't invest more than 294 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: you can afford to lose. There is no predicting what's 295 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: going to happen in the crypto markets, and you should 296 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: really assume that anything you put in could be worth 297 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: zero tomorrow. And so, you know, it's really tempting, especially 298 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: when the line is going up and people are, you know, 299 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: advertising all these returns that they're making, to put a 300 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: lot of money into it on the hopes that, you know, 301 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: you might be one of those people who triples their money. 302 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: But you know, I've seen so many times that it 303 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: goes in the other direction too, and you know, people 304 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: over expose themselves. Well, I'll share, just as a closing remark, 305 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: a quote that you highlighted on your blog from you know, 306 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: Michael Sailor, who very famously said, you know, mortgage your 307 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: house on by bitcoin, which is the the exact opposite 308 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: of the kind of prudence and caution that you are recommending. Well, 309 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to be 310 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: on the podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure and 311 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, hope to have you back again. Thanks for 312 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: having me. You can find her work, of course, on Twitter. 313 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. When crypto prices 314 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: were high, you know, around this time last year, a 315 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: certain class of crypto officianados took full advantage of the 316 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: digital nomad lifestyle. They showed up in places like Portugal 317 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: and Miami and San Juan, leaving behind their lives in 318 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: New York and London. How's that going now, you ask, Well, 319 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: let's just say there's less sun see and sun in 320 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: their lives these days. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily 321 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows 322 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 323 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us 324 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: your comments, questions or suggestions for the show to Crypto 325 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net or find us on Twitter. We're 326 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: at Crypto. The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. 327 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Sharon Barriro. 328 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: Associate producer is Ty Butler. Desta wonder At is our engineer. 329 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: Original music by Leo Sidran. I'm Stacy Mariachmal. We'll be 330 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: back tomorrow.