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Speaker 1: On the Bechdecast, the questions ask if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, it's me your general of the

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Speaker 2: army that you're in, and also your mom.

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Speaker 3: I mean, just so you know, what is a movie

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Speaker 3: if not about mothers and daughters? Gusts O, Kaitlyn. I

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Speaker 3: to truly dream of the day where you say turn

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Speaker 3: around and then you cut my shoulder and pull a

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Speaker 3: shark's tooth out. That's how we'll know, yeah, that this

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Speaker 3: was really meant to be, that this was some real

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Speaker 3: second act shit going on. Yeah, yeah, wait for it,

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Speaker 3: wait for Yes. I will keep my shark tooth in

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Speaker 3: place until the day comes, thank you, but I will

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Speaker 3: be ready. Great. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Drante,

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Speaker 2: and this is our show where we examine movies through

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Speaker 2: an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as

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Speaker 2: a jumping off point. Yes, which of course is a

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Speaker 2: media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, originally found

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Speaker 2: in her comic Dykes to Watch Out for a classic,

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Speaker 2: intended as just sort of like a bit a joke,

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Speaker 2: and it has since been used as this media metric

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Speaker 2: that has many different versions. Yes, ours is as follows.

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Speaker 2: Two people of a marginalized gender must have names. They

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Speaker 2: must speak to each other about something other than a man.

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Speaker 3: Such as a conversation about mother tearing a shark's tooth

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Speaker 3: out of her daughter's shoulder. That that's a really excellent

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Speaker 3: pass because those characters have names and that's a very

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Speaker 3: impactful exchange of dialogue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Only reason we say that, as we've been saying for

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Speaker 3: years on the show, is because there's so many movies

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Speaker 3: that people will be like, well, it does pass, and

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Speaker 3: it's like oh, waitress being like hi, and then Nicole

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Speaker 3: Kibben's like hi, and they're like hmm, what was that?

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Speaker 2: And then anyways, and then Nicole Kidman says, we come

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Speaker 2: to this place.

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Speaker 3: For imagine and that's impactful. Yes, that's true impact.

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Speaker 2: So that's our show now, you know.

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Speaker 3: And today we have a very popularly requested episode. I

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Speaker 3: think we've been getting requests for this movie since the

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Speaker 3: second the trailer dropped, which true makes a lot of sense,

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Speaker 3: and we're very excited to be covering it. It's The

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Speaker 3: Woman King Day on the Bechdel Cast. We're here, we

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Speaker 3: did it, and we have a wonderful guest.

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Speaker 2: We certainly do who we found through a piece that

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Speaker 2: she wrote on NPR entitled The Woman King Speaks loud

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Speaker 2: and clear to this jerry and feminist. She works in

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Speaker 2: global health. She's a senior fellow at the Aspen Institute.

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Speaker 2: It's oy Oye Banji oh.

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Speaker 4: Go Hi, Gathlene, Hi, Jamie. Really really really thrilled to

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Speaker 4: be here. We're so excited to have you same here.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's my first time recording a podcast, so

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Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to seeing how I do or hearing

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Speaker 4: how I do.

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Speaker 5: But really lovely to be here.

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Speaker 3: You're going to do great, already doing great. Can you

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Speaker 3: tell us a little bit before we talk about the well,

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Speaker 3: I guess this kind of goes into the discussion of

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Speaker 3: how did this piece come about for you, the MPR piece.

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Speaker 4: It's a very interesting question, and I'm not sure if

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Speaker 4: to give the honest or not honest view, But I mean,

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Speaker 4: obviously the Woman King came out and there was a

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Speaker 4: lot of chatter on social media and everywhere about this

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Speaker 4: movie about black women. And then I got a request

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Speaker 4: from someone at the Aspen Institute to ask if I

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Speaker 4: would be interested in writing about The Woman King. And

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Speaker 4: I thought it was a good way to watch the

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Speaker 4: movie because I would usually watch movies like two years

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Speaker 4: after they've been released and like the last one amongst

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Speaker 4: my friends to watch movies. But this time, I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 4: there was a lot of chatter about The Woman King.

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Speaker 4: There was a lot of three people were extremely excited.

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Speaker 4: My friends in Nigeria couldn't see it at the time

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Speaker 4: because it was showing in cinema here in the UK

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Speaker 4: and London, where I leave, but not in Nigeria yet,

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Speaker 4: so people were pushing me from home to go set

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Speaker 4: immediately and tell them about it. And of course the

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Speaker 4: opportunity to write about it came up. So everything just

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Speaker 4: you know, jelled together into one. And then I found

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Speaker 4: myself going into the cinema one night after work, again

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Speaker 4: quite unusual of me. I would usually wait till the weekend,

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Speaker 4: but I couldn't wait till the weekend for this one.

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Speaker 3: And then I.

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Speaker 4: Decided to yep, I went on, watched the movie, loved it,

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Speaker 4: and indeed wrote a piece about it.

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Speaker 2: And we loved it, and we loved the movie and

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Speaker 2: and we're all in agreement that the woman King rocks.

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Speaker 3: It's really good. Kaitlyn, what's your I mean, I gets like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: what's your history with the movie? Other than I think

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Speaker 3: we both saw it the week it came out. That's

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Speaker 3: pretty much it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I went with a group of friends of the cast,

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Speaker 2: such as Sammy Junio and Daniel Perez. Awesome, and we

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Speaker 2: just went together and we had a blast. And I'm

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Speaker 2: so happy that it's on Netflix now and is very accessible,

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Speaker 2: and I've watched it a couple of times since then.

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Speaker 3: How about you, Jamie. I bravely went alone, I was,

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Speaker 3: which is how I got a but I thank you

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Speaker 3: so much. But no, I did see it shortly after

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Speaker 3: it came out. It was It's really good theater experience

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Speaker 3: if you like go at night and everyone's fucking pumped

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Speaker 3: to be there. Oh yeah, it is. To quote one

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Speaker 3: of the greatest film critics of our time, Harry's, the

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Speaker 3: movie felt like a movie. It certainly did. It really

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Speaker 3: felt like a go to the theater type film and

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Speaker 3: there's no getting around it. But yeah, no, I thought

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Speaker 3: it was a really really fun well not I mean,

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Speaker 3: I guess fun is kind of a but there are

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Speaker 3: moments in this movie that are really fun. Like there's

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Speaker 3: such a huge range of emotion and I can't I

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Speaker 3: kind of as I was leaving originally, I'm like, I

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Speaker 3: can't remember the last time. I mean, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of feelings of I can't remember the last time or

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Speaker 3: the first time that I've seen a movie quite like this,

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Speaker 3: but even just a big sweeping historical epic, I just

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Speaker 3: hadn't seen one in a really long time, and there's

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Speaker 3: just there's so much going on. I'm really excited to

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Speaker 3: talk about it. And I was aware. I feel like,

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Speaker 3: because this is such a recent movie, there were kind

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Speaker 3: of two waves of discourse that surrounded this movie, and

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Speaker 3: I before researching this episode, I was only really aware

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Speaker 3: of one. I was definitely well aware of Gina Prince

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Speaker 3: bythewould Be and the film in general being shut out

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Speaker 3: of the Oscars, and the very very needed discussion around

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Speaker 3: black artists in general, but especially black women being shut

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Speaker 3: out of big institutional awards shows like the Oscars. But

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Speaker 3: there was also a historical conversation that it didn't come

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Speaker 3: across my feed on mister Elon's website. But I'm excited

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Speaker 3: to talk about it after we talk about the movie

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Speaker 3: because I think there's a lot of yeah, I guess

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Speaker 3: just speaking to like the historical epic of it all,

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Speaker 3: there's I feel like there's I mean, I can't speak

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Speaker 3: to this specifically because it's like historical epics don't tend

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Speaker 3: to be like my faves. This is kind of a

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Speaker 3: huge outlier, but I feel like they're largely considered to

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Speaker 3: be like truth adjacent maybe but often right not.

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Speaker 2: And we're also about to record an episode on r

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Speaker 2: r R which takes fright yes billion liberties with historical accuracy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this movie movie follows history a little more closely, but

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Speaker 2: also takes the Titanic approach, where it's like this happened,

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Speaker 2: but let's introduce some characters who didn't exist, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited to talk about it because yeah, well

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Speaker 3: we'll get into that in a little bit. But anyways,

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Speaker 3: I saw the movie. I really really enjoyed it, and

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Speaker 3: it's just as fun to watch at home. I don't know. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm also excited that it's on Netflix and everyone can

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Speaker 3: watch it. If you haven't watched it, get your shit together,

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Speaker 3: serious time to watch it. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's just on Netflix in the US

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Speaker 4: by the way, Oh is.

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Speaker 2: It not in the UK?

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Speaker 4: No, it's not in the UK, certainly not in Nigeria.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, that's a real shame. Yeah, it's not freely

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Speaker 4: available on Netflix for the rest of the world.

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Speaker 5: Yet.

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Speaker 3: Well gustrating, I know, I know, Okay, we were just

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Speaker 3: being US centric. Sorry about it? Classic American bad.

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Speaker 2: Well shall I do the recap? Yes, and we'll go

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Speaker 2: from there.

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Speaker 3: I'm John Boyega. I have to give you permission to

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Speaker 3: do anything because I am man.

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Speaker 2: I am mister king, and yes you may, Oh, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much.

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Speaker 3: Oh why do we need him? Anyways? I mean, we

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Speaker 3: need John Boyega, but why do we need kings? But

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Speaker 3: why do we need kings? Exactly?

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 2: I will place a trigger warning for rape and sexual

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Speaker 2: assault here at the top of the recap. The story

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Speaker 2: takes place in West Africa. I believe the year is

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Speaker 2: eighteen twenty three. We get some voiceover with backstory about

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Speaker 2: the Kingdom of Dahome and it's new king, Gezo. Dahome's enemy,

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Speaker 2: the Oyo Empire, has joined forces with the Mahi people,

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Speaker 2: and together they have been raiding Dahomie villages and selling

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Speaker 2: captives to European slavers.

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Speaker 3: Right away, like right as the movie started, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I was kind of struck by like there is like

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Speaker 3: I know that Star Wars doesn't own the crawl, but

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Speaker 3: like there is like a historical crawl to give the

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Speaker 3: audience just an idea of like where we are and

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Speaker 3: who we're with. And I feel like we see a

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Speaker 3: lot of big movies that take place within this time period,

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Speaker 3: and I think it does like speak to how few

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Speaker 3: movies have taken place in Africa whatsoever, because it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: as an audience member, I super super needed that context.

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Speaker 3: But if you're seeing a movie that is placed in

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Speaker 3: a similar time period and it's you know, like a

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Speaker 3: Jane Austen adaptation, they're just like here we are where

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Speaker 3: we are, assuming we know where you are, because this

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Speaker 3: is the history we prioritize teaching for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So we learn about Dahomie villages being raided, but

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Speaker 2: the Dahomie have a powerful weapon to fight back, which

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Speaker 2: is an elite army of female soldiers called the Agogi

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Speaker 2: led by General Naniska.

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Speaker 3: It's so exciting to see them appear. At the beginning

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Speaker 3: my theater I was in, they were like everyone was

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Speaker 3: so bumped.

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Speaker 2: It's very exciting because the movie opens on General Naniska,

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Speaker 2: who's played by Viola Davis, and her Agoji warriors attacking

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Speaker 2: a group of Mahi men and freeing the people who

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Speaker 2: were being held captive. We meet a few of the

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Speaker 2: other warriors, like Amenza played by Shila a Team Amazing,

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Speaker 2: and Izogi played by Lashana Lynch. They all return to

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Speaker 2: the Kingdom where we meet Now played by Tussobidu, a

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Speaker 2: young woman whose parents are trying to arrange a marriage

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Speaker 2: for her, but she does not want to be an

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Speaker 2: obedient wife who puts up with a husband's abuse. Because

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Speaker 2: of that, she is seen as worthless and insolent, so

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Speaker 2: her father gives her to the King.

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Speaker 3: I learned when I was doing some historical research. So most,

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Speaker 3: I mean the majority of these characters, I think, with

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Speaker 3: the exception of the King and one of the I

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Speaker 3: think Portuguese Slave Traders is based on a real person,

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Speaker 3: but most of the Agoji women are based on like

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Speaker 3: sort of an amalgamation. But Naniska and now we were

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Speaker 3: Those are like references to actual Egoji warriors who existed

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Speaker 3: and were seen, uh you know, being really good at war.

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Speaker 1: Like I.

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Speaker 3: Was like, I wait, I don't know how to talk

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Speaker 3: about military stuff. I don't know what the fuck I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Really good at war, that's correct?

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Speaker 3: I mean, say, like the Agoji, if they're really good

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Speaker 3: at one thing, it's it's war and making me go, ah,

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Speaker 3: it's exciting.

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Speaker 2: So Zogi take now we under her wing. She shows

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Speaker 2: her around the palace and now he joins the group

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Speaker 2: of women who will train and basically like audition to

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Speaker 2: become warriors of the Agoji. Meanwhile, Oyo soldiers led by

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Speaker 2: their new General Oba Ade played by Jimmy Adukoya, who

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Speaker 2: is particularly vicious. He discovers the men that Naniska and

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Speaker 2: her warriors killed earlier, and General Oba is not happy

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Speaker 2: about this, especially that his men were killed by women,

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Speaker 2: because he's mister patriarchy.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Back in Dahome, we meet King Gezo played by John Boyega,

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Speaker 2: which is great is for I think everyone and our eyeballs. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 2: where thrill. He meets with his counsel and they are

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Speaker 2: deciding how to proceed with their enemies if they should

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Speaker 2: go to war or not, and Naniska and Amenza are like, hey,

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Speaker 2: we should stop participating in the slave trade and focus

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Speaker 2: on harvesting and selling palm oil because the Kingdom of

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Speaker 2: Dahome tends to sell their enemy captives to European slavers. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: Nawi and the others learn about the Agoji, how they're

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Speaker 2: fierce warriors. They are not allowed to take husbands or

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Speaker 2: bear children, but they will be respected, their opinions will

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Speaker 2: be heard, and we do see them being like revered

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Speaker 2: by the community.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that is something though that I feel like, and

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Speaker 3: this is like maybe getting a little ahead, but I'm

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Speaker 3: interested in what you both think about it because I

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Speaker 3: think that, like that was one of the historical issues

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Speaker 3: that when I read more about it, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: like it's referenced in the movie that it like mainly

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Speaker 3: through Nawi that you know, obviously it's unfair that they

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Speaker 3: are prevented from having relationships outside of being warriors because

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Speaker 3: we see their you know, male counterparts having all having

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Speaker 3: not just relationships and families, but like access to alcohol

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Speaker 3: and just stuff that like they're doing the same job

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Speaker 3: and not being treated in the same way. But I

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Speaker 3: feel like John Boyega's character, who is a real man

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Speaker 3: kin Gayzo like kind of skirts around criticism of that

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Speaker 3: in certain ways because like I, historically I guess that

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Speaker 3: every single person that was a part of the EGOJI

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Speaker 3: would be considered his wife and like a third tier wife,

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Speaker 3: and that that is why they were so controlled in

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Speaker 3: how they were allowed to interact with the world. It

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Speaker 3: was still like an emphasis on control, and it's it's

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Speaker 3: weird because it's like that is present in this story.

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Speaker 3: But I but the first time I saw it, at least,

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Speaker 3: it didn't register to me as like something that was emphasized.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I mean, I have a whole

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Speaker 2: long spiel that we'll get to about the double standard

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Speaker 2: that Nawe does challenge, but nothing changes and I imagine

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Speaker 2: like it didn't change historically and that's why. But she

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Speaker 2: does comment on it, and then there's a whole other

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Speaker 2: conversation to be had about how like the Agogee view

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Speaker 2: love and emotion as weakness. And you know, that's a

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Speaker 2: very familiar concept both in like real life and media,

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Speaker 2: but it's often, at least in media, it'll be something

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Speaker 2: that is traditionally associated with male warriors like the Jedi

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Speaker 2: from Star Wars, who are like, oh, from Star Wars, yes, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: ever heard of it? From where I was trying to

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Speaker 2: think of the name the Jedi. It's the the Jedi Order,

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Speaker 2: which I couldn't think of, so then I said, from

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Speaker 2: Star Wars, and then it sounded like a fool, So

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Speaker 2: you know, the Jedi from Star Wars.

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Speaker 3: It was helpful.

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Speaker 2: Who I think are except for like the newer crop

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Speaker 2: of Star Wars movies, the Jedi Order have largely been men.

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Speaker 2: And then also like from Game of Thrones, there's the

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Speaker 2: Night's Watch or whatever they're called, the guys who like

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Speaker 2: guard the wall against the ice people. I've seen that show.

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Speaker 2: I just don't remember what anything is called.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean I feel like that is that

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Speaker 3: is I mean, obviously, I don't know, maybe not obviously.

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Speaker 3: I am not a veteran. I have not served, I

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Speaker 3: have not gone to war.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're not good at war, you would say.

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Speaker 3: I would say, I am probably would be uniquely bad

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Speaker 3: at war, and I don't dislike that about myself. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean that is like sort of a general training thing,

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Speaker 3: like repressing your emotions, which I think is like addressed

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Speaker 3: to some extent in this narrative by like, even though

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Speaker 3: General Naniska feels that it is and I think to

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Speaker 3: some extent it is necessary for her to do her job,

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Speaker 3: like to compartmentalize constantly, but you can also at least

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Speaker 3: get to see how it affects her. She clearly has

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Speaker 3: what I would say is PTSD from combat from trauma

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Speaker 3: that she has experienced that we'll talk about, And so

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Speaker 3: I was at least grateful that I don't know, I

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Speaker 3: feel like most well, obviously, most war movies surround men

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Speaker 3: and white men specifically, and you see all this trauma

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Speaker 3: taking place, but you don't ordinarily see how it affects

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Speaker 3: them down the line or gives that any sort of

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Speaker 3: serious consideration of, of course, how that's going to affect your

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Speaker 3: mental health and just how you interact with the world.

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Speaker 3: So I do like seeing a. I mean, I guess

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Speaker 3: General Niniska she's like an active general, like and how

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Speaker 3: her career has affected her, because I'm always just like,

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Speaker 3: we gotta get we like I don't know in the US,

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Speaker 3: and it feels like almost everywhere veterans do not have

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Speaker 3: access to mental health services that they need, and so

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Speaker 3: when there are movies about war, I'm like, let's let's

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Speaker 3: show that.

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Speaker 2: Why did General Niska go to therapy? I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually that was going to be my main

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Speaker 3: point of the I'm like, you know what really took

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Speaker 3: me out of it is that we're generals in eighteen

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Speaker 3: twenty didn't go to see my therapist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, explain that pretty messed up anyway.

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Speaker 4: So I Yeah, when I was watching the movie, one

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Speaker 4: thing that really struck me, well, firstie I should have

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Speaker 4: said probably about my history to it was in watching

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Speaker 4: I tried to reflect on life then in the eighteen

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Speaker 4: hundreds and life now in twenty twenty two, which is

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Speaker 4: when I watched it. And you know the bit about

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Speaker 4: women the Agoja women not being allowed to marry or

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Speaker 4: fall in love. That has changed in some ways, but

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Speaker 4: there are still some very tricky policies. There's still affect

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Speaker 4: many women, especially women that are in the army or

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Speaker 4: in the police. In Nigeria, for example, women in the

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Speaker 4: police have to seek permission from their superiors before they

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Speaker 4: get married. Now men don't have to do that, you know,

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Speaker 4: a man can just get married and do whatever. An

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Speaker 4: unmarried woman in the police force has to actually seek

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Speaker 4: permission from her supervisors. And it's just one of those

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Speaker 4: lots that I found I know still, I know I

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Speaker 4: found out that I was like in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 4: you know, and it's one of those things that people

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Speaker 4: don't talk enough about.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: It has become sort of the state of school until

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Speaker 4: you're told that when you're joining the police, you know,

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Speaker 4: you have the SIK permission, and so that's okay, but

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Speaker 4: it's not okay in any way. And it's just one

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Speaker 4: of the ways that discrimination is shown. And it's one

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Speaker 4: of the ways, or one of the reasons, in my opinion,

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Speaker 4: why there are way less women fighting wars.

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Speaker 5: I agree with you, Jamie.

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Speaker 4: I mean, wars are not my thing, but there are

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Speaker 4: several women and young girls that want to join the

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Speaker 4: army or the police force, or you know, go to war,

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Speaker 4: fight wars or protect their countries. But when you think

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Speaker 4: about the discrimination they face, and this varies from one

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Speaker 4: spectrum to another, but when you think about the fact

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Speaker 4: that you have the seek permission to get married and

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Speaker 4: your male counterparts do not have to do that, and

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Speaker 4: that's totally discouraging and it is unfortunate.

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Speaker 5: I would say, but yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: God, that is so upsetting to hear that that is

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Speaker 3: still the case now that I mean, yeah, I wow,

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Speaker 3: learning learning upsetting things on the Bexel Cafe. Anyways, I

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Speaker 3: was just got to see that. It didn't I don't know,

378
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Speaker 3: it didn't undercut what a powerful leader she was. To

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Speaker 3: see that these years of trauma on the battlefield and

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Speaker 3: outside just interacting with these slave traders has had an

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Speaker 3: effect on her.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, And that comes across clearly in the film,

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Speaker 2: because it's Viola Davis.

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Speaker 3: She's amazing, got all over the place.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So we've just learned about the Egoji and the

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Speaker 2: sort of like freedoms and restrictions that they have to

387
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Speaker 2: live by. Then Nawi has a conversation with Naniska in

388
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Speaker 2: the bathing pool where they kind of like size each

389
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Speaker 2: other up and they both think that the other is

390
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Speaker 2: arrogant and foolish. Then it's time for Nawi and the

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Speaker 2: others to start training to become warriors.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Did anyone think about the Mulan montage when they

393
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Speaker 3: were watching this? I was thinking about it the whole

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Speaker 3: time I had it. I was humming the song A Man,

395
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Speaker 3: a Woman, Woman, King.

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Speaker 2: So there's the training montage where Nawi is learning and improving,

397
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Speaker 2: but she also tends to talk back, and she challenges

398
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Speaker 2: authority and tradition. She pulls a prank involving gunpowder Naniska.

399
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Speaker 3: Hilarious still hilarious war prank.

400
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Speaker 2: And Izogi is still mentoring her and trying to keep

401
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Speaker 2: her in line. Nawi reveals that she acts out so

402
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Speaker 2: that Naniska will notice her, because you know, she's trying

403
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Speaker 2: to stand out above the crowd. And what is that

404
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: from stand out?

405
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Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's a Goofy movie. Right, Oh yes, yes, god,

406
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 3: our brands are so broken.

407
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just talked about that. Yeah, I cannot remember anything, okay.

408
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: So she's trying to like stand out above the crowd

409
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Speaker 2: max goof style. And there's also a mention of the

410
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Speaker 2: woman king, a position that has not been held by

411
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Speaker 2: anyone in the Kingdom of Dahomey for many years.

412
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Speaker 3: And of course, when we in the theater hear them

413
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Speaker 3: say the title of the movie, we begin cheering. We

414
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: stand up, we applaud as one does when they say,

415
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Speaker 3: you know, I think this is everything everywhere all at once,

416
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Speaker 3: and then everyone stands in cheers. It's the most famous

417
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Speaker 3: scene in that movie.

418
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Speaker 2: Or you know when Meryl Streep is like, I have doubt,

419
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Speaker 2: I have such doubt.

420
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Speaker 3: Wait, but she does. She does also another Viola Davis

421
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Speaker 3: classic performance. I think she won her or one of

422
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: her She wanted to Oscar for that. I don't know

423
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Speaker 3: how many oscars she has. That's a question for another day.

424
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Speaker 3: But she did have such doubts.

425
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Speaker 2: She did, certainly. So there's mention of the Woman King,

426
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Speaker 2: and it's speculated that Naniska may one day be named

427
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Speaker 2: the Woman King. And then soon after the Oyo General

428
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: Oba shows up with his soldiers expecting a tribute to

429
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Speaker 2: be paid to him. When then we learned via flashback

430
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Speaker 2: that many years ago he took Naniska as prisoner and

431
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: repeatedly raped her for a period of time. King Gezo

432
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Speaker 2: reluctantly pays them this tribute so that Dahomie can continue

433
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Speaker 2: using a port for trading which the Oyo have taken

434
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 2: control of, and part of that payment is twenty Agoji warriors,

435
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 2: one of whom is not we we cut to this

436
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 2: port where two men from Brazil show up. Santo played

437
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: by Hero, finds Tiffin, who sucks he's bad.

438
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 3: He gets drowned in shallow water at the end, which

439
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 3: is pretty thrilling. Yeah, it's very cathartic. It's kind of

440
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: that rock and then fortunately not historically accurate, but fun,

441
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: fun at the movies.

442
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: Oh, we come to this place for magic. We come

443
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: to this place to see slavers be.

444
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 3: A Chorgnizer get drowned.

445
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, with him is Malik played by Jordan Bulger.

446
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: Parentheses hot. So they show up at this port which

447
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: is used by Slavers to traffic people who have been

448
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: sold into slavery. Naniska also shows up to the port

449
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: with some of her warriors. Oba thinks it's the tribute

450
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: being paid, but surprise, Naniska is like, fuck you, here's

451
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: some decapitated heads. That's your tribute.

452
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: We're cheering again. It's exciting.

453
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 5: That was so powerful.

454
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 3: That's amazing.

455
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: Then there's a fight between Naniska and Oba, and then

456
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: the Agogi escape and because of this war has been

457
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: declared between the kingdoms of Dahome and o Yo.

458
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I know we're going to talk about this

459
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: in a bit, but the fight scenes are fucking incredible. Yeah,

460
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 3: they're so good. And again I'm not a war movie person,

461
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: but these fight scenes are so ugh. It's so good.

462
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: I've read about how the actors trained and it seemed

463
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: intense good for them. Everyone is ripped, shredded and killing people.

464
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 3: It's it's thrilling, yeah for sure.

465
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So war has been declared, but before the next battle,

466
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: Nawi runs into Malik while he's bathing in the river

467
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: parentheses hot again, we learn that he is half Dahoma.

468
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 2: His mother was from there. She recently passed away and

469
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: it was her dying wish that he visited her homeland,

470
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: which is part of why he's there. So then Malik

471
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: and Santo go to the palace to watch the agoji

472
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: trainees do their final test, where Nawi wins first place,

473
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: so she's like the best trainee. She and others officially

474
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: become a goji.

475
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: Which again it's like they're done. That's all done with

476
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: the King's permission, like they are existing at his leisure basically.

477
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: Right later, when Naui's wounds from the test like obstacle

478
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: course thing, when her wounds are being tended.

479
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: To women, King, you must be woman, keep going.

480
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 2: Naniska notices a scar on Nawi's arm and she's like, oh, yeah,

481
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: I've had that since I was a baby at the orphanage,

482
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: and Naniska's like, what, you're an orphan and she has

483
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: a very peculiar reaction because we learn that Nawi is

484
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: Naniska's daughter because about nineteen years ago, Naniska gave birth

485
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: because she got pregnant from being raped, and Amnza gave

486
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: the baby away to missionaries who were passing through, assuming

487
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: that they would never cross paths with this baby your

488
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: person again, but it turns out it's Nawi and she's

489
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: right there. But they're both like, no, she's probably not

490
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: my daughter.

491
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: But they're in denial. What are the chances? And you're like,

492
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 3: this is a historical of course she's your daughter.

493
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: So then now we sees Malik again. They're flirting, they're

494
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: into each other, but again the Agoji are not allowed

495
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: to canoodle with men. Romantic love is thought to make

496
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: them weak. And again nowI challenges this, but she can't

497
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: really do anything about it. And then also Malik tells

498
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: her that he overheard that General guy Oba planning his

499
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: next attack, so Nawi goes to tell this to Naniska.

500
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: She also takes his weapon, which.

501
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: Is like ooh, parentheses hot.

502
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 3: Yes, So hot people being hot together.

503
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: It's what the movies are kind of all about.

504
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: Isn't it. That's why we come to this place.

505
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: So first of all, Naniska is like, you shouldn't have

506
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: been talking to a man. And then she tells Nawi

507
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: that she was captured and raped and in pressgnated, and that

508
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: she gave birth to a girl, and that before Amenza

509
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: took the baby away, she made a cut on the

510
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: back of the baby's arm and pressed a shark tooth

511
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: into the cut, hence Naui's scar, confirming that Nawi is

512
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: Naniska's daughter.

513
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: I had to end there such I was so, I

514
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 3: was like, you had such doubt? No did it? I know?

515
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: I was just like, how has it not gotten so infected?

516
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: How is it their tooth's just still in there? I

517
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 3: don't know how that maybe that, I like, I'm not

518
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 3: a doubt. I'm both not good at war or not

519
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 3: good at medicin, But I'm like, could that happen? Could

520
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: you have a shark tooth in your arm? For I

521
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: guess people can like have like trapnel and like, yeah,

522
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: just I.

523
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: Would have thought it would fall pop right out. But

524
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: babies maybe babies, heel really fast, and it just kind

525
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: of healed over.

526
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: I don't know, we're so good at we see are scholars,

527
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: real women in stem action baby sustained sharp tooth. We

528
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 3: don't know, Ron, can you work in global health? This

529
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 3: is right?

530
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: Right?

531
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: Probably know? They answered every health question I know.

532
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 4: And that was another really interesting part about the movie.

533
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 4: Every you know, the scene where I'm sorry to jump off,

534
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 4: the scene where they were cutting themselves and putting blood

535
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 4: into the bowl as the means of initiating them into

536
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 4: the agogees, And all I could think about was, oh

537
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: my god, that's tetanus, that's hepatitis.

538
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: The same because they're sharing a blade, they're like using time.

539
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 4: You know, they're all leading. You don't know where anyone's

540
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 4: come from. But yeah, yeah, I tried very much to

541
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 4: separate my science and health the brain from the movie

542
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: because I was freaking out.

543
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, same. I like to imagine you Ranka entering

544
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: the scene and being like, look, I know what you

545
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: think you're doing. This is actually really dangerous.

546
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: It's not sanitary.

547
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 3: We can do this symbolically, surely, right.

548
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: So, Nawi has just learned that Naniska is her mother,

549
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: and they are both very overcome with emotion, especially Nawi, because.

550
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: It is acting. They are acting, and.

551
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: Then Nawi runs off crying. The next day, Naniska starts

552
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: to plan and later launches a counter attack against Oba

553
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: and the Oya warriors. The Agoji are victorious, but during

554
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: the attack, some of the warriors, including Nawi and Isogi,

555
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: are taken prisoner and brought to the port to be sold.

556
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: They attempt to escape, but Isogi is shot and she

557
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: dies in Nawi's arms and cry cry cry.

558
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 4: Yes, very very sad.

559
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, their friendship is just so wonderful and really, I mean.

560
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: It's like, I know that that is classic the movies,

561
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: but as I really didn't think anyone in the main

562
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 3: cast was going to die at any point because they

563
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: were so good at war, and the fact that they

564
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 3: did it to Maria Rambo of all people sick twisted.

565
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: They're not right, yes, okay. So meanwhile, back at the palace,

566
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: Naniska is like, okay, they're these warriors who have been captured.

567
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 2: We need to go rescue them, and King Gezo is like, no,

568
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: it's not worth it. So Naniska decides to disobey him,

569
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: and she heads off to the port. She was planning

570
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: to go alone, but many of her fellow warriors follow

571
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: and join her back at the port. Malik buys Nawi

572
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: to save her, and when Naniska and the other warriors

573
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: show up at the port for the rescue mission, now

574
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 2: we joins them in battle, they all of the people

575
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: who have been captured. They fight back against the slavers,

576
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: and there is a final showdown between Naniska and Oba

577
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 2: in which she kills him another very cathartic death.

578
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: Yes, the movie feeling like a movie.

579
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 2: The Agoji returned to their kingdom, having defeated the o

580
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 2: Yo and their reign over Dahomie. King Gezo commends Naniska

581
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: and the Agoji for their victory and he.

582
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 3: Says woman King again, he says, you were the woman king.

583
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: And he says we are not going to be complicit

584
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: in the slave trade anymore, which is not historically accurate oopsies,

585
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: not even close, but in the movie, that's what happens.

586
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 2: And then there's a tender moment between mother and daughter

587
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: between Naniska and Nawi, and the movie ends with the

588
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 2: people of Dahomi celebrating their victory.

589
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: The end.

590
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's take a quick break and we will

591
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: come back to discuss and we're back.

592
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 3: Woman King, all right, ran Kay, is there anywhere you

593
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: would like to start? What's jumping out for you?

594
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 4: I think the relationship between is okay a Navii is

595
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 4: something that really struck me. And I know I said

596
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 4: during the week up like when she died that was

597
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 4: I had tears in white eyes. Again, it's a movie,

598
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 4: I know, but it just felt so real. I mean

599
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 4: that jumped out at me because I really loved that.

600
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 4: He didn't love sort of relationship. Well, I don't believe

601
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 4: in it, but it's how I grew up and how

602
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 4: many Nigerian and African women grow up in the sense

603
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 4: that your mother's and your aunties, and I mean every

604
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 4: old the woman is a mother and auntie first of all.

605
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 4: So whether it's your mother's friend or whoever, your mother's

606
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 4: and your aunties really love you. But they show you

607
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 4: by being hard with you. You know, they show you

608
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 4: by being really strict with you. But deep in their

609
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 4: somewhere they're ready to fight and go to any war

610
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: for you and with is your gear. And now you

611
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 4: could tell that is your gay really really loved now

612
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 4: we and that now we completely admired is a gay

613
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 4: and it was just such a beautiful relationship to watch

614
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 4: and with every since I could feel, you know, there

615
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 4: were loads of unsaid words, but you could see from

616
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 4: their emotions, from the official expressions, from you know, what's

617
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 4: the first rule of war? Always obey is a gay? Like?

618
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 4: I found that so powerful. It was like a deep

619
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 4: connection between both of them, and so I think throughout

620
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 4: the movie, I always look forward to scenes that Hadsi

621
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 4: gay and Naui, whether actually congratulating her or being firmed

622
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,439
Speaker 4: with her, which was most of it, or sadly when

623
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 4: is Okay died in NAB's arms.

624
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: Their friendship was really really I think, like well done.

625
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's like because it's so devastating when is

626
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 3: Okay dies because I didn't see it coming. And also like, yeah,

627
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: you've built You've spent so much time and they've like

628
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 3: clearly like learned from each other. I think, like kind

629
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: of their last moment together, Nawi, what is she what

630
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: does she like? She moves a bone? Ooh, it's really

631
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 3: difficult to watch, but it's like they are just like

632
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 3: so in it together and like in it collectively, and

633
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: it's so like one of the things I really liked

634
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: about this movie is obviously it is a woman centric plot,

635
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 3: but you get to see so many different kinds of

636
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: women and so many different personalities interacting. You get to

637
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 3: see it across generations. You get to see relationship between

638
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: women that are I think more like Nawi and Izzoki's

639
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: relationship is like pretty warm as time goes on, and

640
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: you get to see like a really warm friendship. And

641
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 3: then with Naniska and Amenza, you see a different side

642
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: of Naniska with a Menza than you do when she

643
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 3: is being the general. Like, you just get to see

644
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 3: a lot of different facets and types of relationships and

645
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 3: they all felt very like grounded and earned and yeah.

646
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 4: You also you also get to see jealousy, which was

647
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 4: quite the mix between the queen whose name I don't remember,

648
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 4: but King Ghizzo's wife.

649
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 2: Yes Chante.

650
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 4: She just did not want Naniska to be there. She

651
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 4: didn't want her to be the woman king. She didn't

652
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 4: want her to quote unquote make decisions for King Ghizo.

653
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 4: She didn't want Naniska to authority. You know, when Naniska

654
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 4: was suggesting that the da who made people stop engaging

655
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 4: in slave trade, and you know, she thought Naniska was

656
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 4: confusing the King. Well, it was just very interesting to

657
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 4: see one end of love and support and comforts amongst

658
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 4: women and then the other end of jealousy and some spies.

659
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah.

660
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: I like when there's a character who I don't remember

661
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: his name, I kept calling him mister Purple. Oh, I

662
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: liked also queer icon mister Purple.

663
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: Mister Purple crushed it.

664
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: He said something like, oh, yeah, the king respects Naniska

665
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: because she fought for him in the coup.

666
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 3: What did you do? You hid in a cupboard? And

667
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, But I think that like that

668
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 3: dynamic between the two of them is so it's really

669
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 3: interesting because it's like, I don't know, I've been thinking

670
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: a lot recently, which is dangerous, but about how like

671
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 3: through history, how women have had access to power and

672
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: I guess having to like talk about power as a

673
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: neutral term just for simplicity, but like, I think between

674
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: those two characters, you have like probably the two available

675
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: routes for women in this culture, as it's presented in

676
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: the movie, to gaining any sort of power or influence

677
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 3: over what happens in their lives. And yeah, Chante gains

678
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 3: it through marriage, which I think I mean, and even

679
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 3: we've been guilty of this over the years, Like modern

680
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 3: feminists don't always they're like, well she just it's like, well,

681
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: there's literally kind of the only option, nothing you can do.

682
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 3: And it does seem like Shante wants a seat at

683
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: the table in terms of decision making and resents that

684
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 3: General Meniska takes that role, which I think, honestly, based

685
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 3: on what we see, General Niniska probably should be at

686
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 3: the table more so than Chante. But then it's also like, well,

687
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 3: why can there only be one woman at the table

688
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: that has everything to do with the patriarchal structure that

689
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: they exist inside of. And I liked, I felt like that.

690
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, I think you could argue

691
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 3: that Chante is made out to seem a little silly,

692
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 3: but she does I think by the end like get her.

693
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: I don't know, I guess I'm curious what do you

694
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 3: both think about that? Like, because at the end, kind

695
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: of the last we see of her is being upset

696
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 3: that Naniska has gotten the seat at the table that

697
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 3: she has not been. We've seen King Gezo speak pretty

698
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: negatively of her. And also I mean there's like that

699
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 3: one there one exchange where he you knows. I don't

700
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 3: remember which villain, but I think maybe the Portuguese guy.

701
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: They're having a discussion and the villain references, well, Chante

702
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 3: told me that this was the place is Santo? Okay,

703
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 3: so they're having I'm like, he gets dround. I don't

704
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 3: have to remember his name. But in any case, King

705
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 3: Gezol has a very negative reaction to hearing that Chante

706
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 3: has asserted herself in any way, shape or form, and

707
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: says that she will be punished for having done that,

708
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: and like.

709
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: He said something like she does not speak for me,

710
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: and she will be punished for thinking that she does.

711
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, So I think like it's it is obviously

712
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: like the filmmakers and the writers are well aware that

713
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 3: Chante is also in a very limited situation with what

714
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 3: she is able to do. But I don't know, I

715
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: kind of wish that we got a little more of her,

716
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: because yeah, I think that like clearly, like the movie

717
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: has a clear and necessary agenda to uplift Naniska, but

718
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: it felt like a few times they took jabs at

719
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: Shante in order to be like, well, clearly Naniska deserves power,

720
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 3: and it's like, hmmm, yes, but why do we have

721
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 3: to kick Shante to make that point true?

722
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 4: True? But then Chante was one of dozens of wives.

723
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 3: I think he did have many. Probably technically general Niska

724
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 3: is a wife too, but.

725
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: Not in the same capacity because it's referenced that the

726
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 2: agoji or virgin like, they're not like engaging in like

727
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: sexual activity with the king, So they're like relationship with him,

728
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 2: but in a far different capacity.

729
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 3: They are both completely at like under his control, but yeah,

730
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: in different in different ways to do it. I didn't

731
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: realize Angelie Kicho is in this movie when she plays

732
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 3: one of.

733
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 4: The wo I only realized the third time. The third

734
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 4: time I watched it, that's when I realized that she

735
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 4: was one of the members of the King's cabinet.

736
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: Loved that, yo. I know, I know, she's credited as

737
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 3: the Munion, which I don't know what that means, but

738
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: I kept saying it as the Minion, and I was like, Wow,

739
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 3: what a crossover.

740
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 2: There's gonna be your minion. I'll bring up minions water

741
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: as well.

742
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 3: Right with the minions work for the woman King?

743
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: You know, Well, it's because one of the people who

744
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: conceived of the story for this movie's name is Maria

745
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 2: Bellow below.

746
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 3: Oh, oh my god, ron Kay, We're so sorry that

747
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 3: we have a minions problem on the Sheld, but millions

748
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 3: tend to count. It's just we're just very cultured.

749
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: All this to say is that I love that the

750
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: there's such a strong emphasis and focus in this movie

751
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: on female relationships of many different types. We see a

752
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: large spectrum of what a relationship between women can look like.

753
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: We already talked about the friendship between Nawi and Izogi,

754
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: as well as the friendship between Naniska and Amenza. I

755
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: was also getting some queer undertones there. I think you

756
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: could easily read that as a close friendship, but I

757
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: was getting some vibes.

758
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: Oh that they are loving. You know, fiction dot net

759
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: is like popping off with a lot of these Yeah.

760
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything new here, but I just want

761
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: to say I too felt the vibes.

762
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 3: I guess, like, going back to Chantae and Niska, I'd

763
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 3: like I liked when the women of this story were

764
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 3: in conflict with each other, because that's like a very

765
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 3: clear grounded conflict for the time and place that this

766
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: movie takes place. And even with like Naniska and Nawi,

767
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: they're in conflict for almost the entire movie, definitely, But

768
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 3: it is like it's so so well written and directed

769
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: and performed that there's like always a feeling of mutual

770
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 3: respect and they're basically like challenging each other. And by

771
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: the end, it's like Naniska, if she hadn't seen Naui

772
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: being little miss rebel the whole damn movie, she wouldn't

773
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 3: have done what she did at the end. And it's

774
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 3: just I like it. I like it.

775
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 4: I was going to say, you know the scene where

776
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 4: Naniska took the decapacitated heads to the or your empire

777
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 4: and then she asked them to leave, and then now

778
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 4: we went back to save her, but instead of a

779
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 4: thank you, she got told off. And you know, it

780
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 4: was very interesting because I kept to andream, did Naniska

781
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 4: really feel upset with Nawi or was that some again

782
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 4: interesting form of hiding your emotions and you know, deep

783
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 4: inside you're proud and you're happy and you're grateful, but

784
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 4: you have to show the powerful general Mantra you know

785
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 4: you're upset for this disobedience. So yeah, that was quite

786
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 4: interesting in terms of that relationship.

787
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: Their dynamics felt like between mother and well yeah, who

788
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 3: we learn our mother and daughter of your shark tooth wound.

789
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 3: It felt like, I mean, there are a lot of

790
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: moments in this movie and I feel like, generally positive,

791
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 3: we'll get back to it, but that felt like a

792
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 3: very kind of modern dynamic, even though it's clearly rooted

793
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 3: in history, but the generational divide between the two of

794
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: them felt pretty like modern and easy to relate to.

795
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 3: If you've ever had a parent that felt they had

796
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: to push down their emotions in order to navigate the

797
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 3: world more effectively, or especially you know, in marginalized communities,

798
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: and I mean, I'm thinking about, honestly, like my own

799
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 3: Irish Catholic parents, where it's there's a lot of you know,

800
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: just compartmentalizing and feeling that that is the only way

801
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: to navigate the world successfully. And it's clear that Naniska

802
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 3: has internalized that and that it has served her well

803
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 3: in what she does. It's not like the movie makes

804
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 3: this out to be, you know, an inferior way of

805
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 3: navigating the world. But I love that you have Nawi

806
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 3: as an alternative to that. Where Nawi wants the freedom

807
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: to feel things freely, she wants to have relationships if

808
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 3: she wants to have relationships and it's I mean what

809
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 3: it's she's she's trying to have it all, but unfortunately,

810
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 3: which is like difficult.

811
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: Right. Well, one thing I was gonna say is that

812
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 2: it felt like before they knew they were mother and daughter,

813
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: they had a very mother daughter relationship dynamic already. Where

814
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: like to your point, Ranke, when Naniska is upset with

815
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 2: Nawi that she like stayed behind to help when they

816
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: were launching that like surprise attack, I feel like you

817
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: could read that as Naniska was upset, like, oh, you

818
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: staying behind could have gotten you killed, And I wouldn't

819
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: want that because I love you like you're my own daughter,

820
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: and it turns out she is our daughter.

821
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

822
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: I think that that relationship was just like built out

823
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: very cleverly, and I to speak to this sort of

824
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: like compartmentalizing of emotions and that whole idea that the

825
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 2: Agogi hold that you can't have relationship like romantic relationships,

826
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: you can't have a family and bear children. To show

827
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: love and to show emotion is a sign of weakness,

828
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: and that's something that now we challenges. One she like

829
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: challenges the double standard of well, the male soldiers the

830
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: men warriors are allowed to you know, have wives and

831
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 2: have families.

832
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: Why not us?

833
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 2: And then you have I think at one point Zogi

834
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 2: is like, you know, I'm gonna be general someday. I

835
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 2: can't have love, you know, I can't have both things

836
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 2: because now he's like if you never loved before? And

837
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: she's like, no, women can't have it all.

838
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 3: She's like, oh no, the classic conflict. And I think,

839
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 3: like in a more historically accurate ending, even though it's framed,

840
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 3: there's a lot of joy in the way this movie ends,

841
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 3: and there is a celebration and Naniska is given the

842
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: woman king like role that we have been rooting for

843
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 3: her to have the entire movie. But in the end,

844
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 3: it's like, now we can't have it all, which is

845
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 3: unfortunately how it ends for a lot of a lot

846
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 3: of women. Where she does the oh I want to like,

847
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 3: I wonder if there's a term for what this is.

848
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 3: But when we haven't talked about the relationship with her

849
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: and Malik yet, but that like meaningful glance of like

850
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 3: this has run its course. It's almost it almost reminded

851
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: me of like at the end of The Dark Knight Rises,

852
00:51:55,080 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 3: where Fatman sees what's his name, Joseph, Oh no, the

853
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 3: butler And they're like yeah, okay, well see yah, like

854
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: it's the the just like, well, this relationship needs to

855
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 3: be done because the movie's over, so we're just gonna

856
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 3: have them have a little a little look.

857
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, a look goes a long way sometimes.

858
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: But she doesn't get the relationship that she I mean it,

859
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 3: it didn't need to be that relationship, but like she

860
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 3: isn't able to have it all. But I like that

861
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 3: she is, which is you know, historically accurate.

862
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: Right though I will say so again, like now we

863
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 2: challenges this idea that like to express emotion and to

864
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: feel love equals a sign of weakness, and she's like

865
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 2: that's not true, Like I can still be a good

866
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 2: warrior and love somebody. And it feels as though Naniska

867
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: comes around on this and it's not on like romantic

868
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: love but familial love, where like I think she was

869
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 2: like holding herself back from like loving herder that she

870
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,720
Speaker 2: found out that she had. But then with that tender

871
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 2: moment between them in the end where you know, she's

872
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 2: apologizing and they're both like just kind of reconciling and

873
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: recognizing their relationship and what that means for them, and

874
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 2: they're like letting love in.

875
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 3: It's so that ending scene with them is really beautiful.

876
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 3: I really loved it where they're yeah, they're like, yeah,

877
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: they're apologizing to each other, but it's not I don't know,

878
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 3: it's like such a you're like, oh, two women apologizing

879
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 3: to e check, but it feels but they're like it

880
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 3: kind of boils down to like, I'm sorry that the

881
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: world is the way it is, and I'm sorry that

882
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: society is stacked so much against you and against me,

883
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that we can't love each other.

884
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 3: And that is beautiful beauty.

885
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 2: Let's take another quick break and then we will come

886
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 2: right back, and we're back. And I want to quote

887
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 2: and paraphrase a piece in Refinery twenty nine entitled The

888
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: Woman King Severs The Strong Black Woman Trope for Good

889
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 2: by Kathleen Newman Braman, which kind of speaks to this

890
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 2: as far as like the withholding emotion or suppressing emotion,

891
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 2: but then particularly Naniska kind of having a character arc

892
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 2: where she lets emotion happen, which is something I need

893
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 2: to learn how to do sometimes as well. So hashtag relatable.

894
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 2: But in this piece Kathleen talks about a trope in

895
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: media and an expectation in real life that Black women

896
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 2: have to be so strong and resilient quote quote unquote

897
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 2: strong Black woman TM. She's the epitome of resilience and perseverance.

898
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: She's an overachiever with an infallible moral compass. Her strength

899
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: comes from having to overcome unimaginable adversity that would break

900
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: anyone else but not her. It is her most defining

901
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 2: characteristic unquote. And then the writer goes on to say

902
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 2: that a lot of people have rejected this trope and

903
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: this expectation which has led for this like push for softness,

904
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 2: and so I'll share another quote. When strength has been

905
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 2: the default, the requirement and expectation to be soft is

906
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: a quiet defiance of a burden we never asked for.

907
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 2: For some Black women to say that's enough resiliency for

908
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 2: me can be a revelation, an exhale of freedom from

909
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 2: the presumption that our worth is measured in how well

910
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: we endure oppression, that our only value is our high

911
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 2: tolerance for suffering. On its surface, the Woman King seems

912
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 2: like another addition to the Strong Black Woman TM.

913
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 3: Cannon.

914
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 2: The film tells the story of some of the fiercest

915
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: warriors in history, the Agoji. Of course they're strong. In

916
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 2: the opening battle scene of the film, Lashana Lynch's Izogi

917
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 2: takes down her opponent by gouging his eyes out with

918
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: her nails. With a piercing, rally rallying cry. These warriors

919
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: race into war with sharpened machetes and no fear. We

920
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 2: have never seen black women be this strong on film.

921
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 2: The closest we've come is the Dora Milage in Black Panther,

922
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 2: a fictional army that was based on the Egogi. And yet,

923
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,760
Speaker 2: as physically adept and mentally tough as the Agogi are,

924
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 2: they are also full human beings who experience other emotions

925
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: than fortitude. I said that, so weird fortitude?

926
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 3: Ooh, Professor Durante, fortitude. There we go.

927
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 2: Their strength is a fact, a basic requirement of their job,

928
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 2: not a replacement for a personality. The piece goes on.

929
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: It's really excellent. I recommend reading it. I just want

930
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: to share one last quote from Shila a team who

931
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: plays Amenza. She says, quote strength has been weaponized against

932
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: black women. As much as it is a positive trait

933
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 2: to have at times, it's also something that has been

934
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: placed upon us to prevent us from having the agency

935
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 2: to feel anything else and to be anything else. What

936
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 2: I love about this film is that it says you

937
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 2: can be all of those things within the spectrum of strength.

938
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 2: You can also be vulnerable, you can find strength in others.

939
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 2: I think that's really important for us to see because

940
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: the strong black woman trope is still prevalent out there,

941
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: and I want people to be able to understand that

942
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: they can feel the full spectrum of what it means

943
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: to be a human being unquote. Which I think all

944
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 2: of that just nicely sums up that conversation we were

945
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 2: having about the female relationships and the kind of nuances

946
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 2: of them and whether or not showing emotion equals weakness

947
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 2: all that it's.

948
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 3: Like an active question and yeah, and like when the

949
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 3: fact that that is like kind of an important question

950
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 3: as the without shaming Niniska and knowing that she comes

951
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 3: by this mentality honestly, but you know, it's a good

952
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 3: historical epic precedent because I feel like that is again,

953
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 3: like this is an outlier in so many ways, but

954
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 3: even just with that mentality of like being emotionally open

955
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 3: is not a weakness and is in fact a strength

956
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 3: is something that still feels like kind of rare in

957
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 3: movies in general.

958
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, giving that the movie was a

959
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 4: mix of or an amalgamation of fiction and the writer's ideas,

960
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 4: it was.

961
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 5: One of the things that caught me as well.

962
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 4: I don't think there would have been any harm in

963
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 4: the overall plot if we had one soldier, one of

964
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 4: the aguages who was soft and you know, showed emotions

965
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 4: without necessarily being seen as weak, you know. And I

966
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 4: really enjoyed reading that article on the strong woman trope

967
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 4: for the Black woman and YadA YadA. But yeah, I

968
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 4: just felt like it was one of the things I

969
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 4: would have really loved to see. It's not it's indeed

970
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 4: not reality that you find many you know, most successful

971
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 4: Black women are seen as strong and powerful, but when

972
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 4: you read their histories or their biographies, you know, Viola

973
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 4: Davis asked Viola Davis, not General Daniska or Michelle Obama

974
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 4: or Oprah Wainfrey. They tend to come out in their

975
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 4: books at this as vulnerable and soft, and they talk

976
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 4: about how they've had to show up a strong woman,

977
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 4: but that's not the lives they want to live in.

978
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 4: Many cases. So yeah, I feel like that's one of

979
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 4: the things that the writer could have weaved in somewhere

980
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 4: into the movie. There was the girl that was from

981
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 4: the Mahi I think community and she hardly spoke, yeah,

982
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 4: and she was calm, but she was really strong. I

983
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 4: mean she came second after now We in the Aguja competition,

984
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 4: the competition or whatever, and you know, she was a

985
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 4: bit close to it, but we hardly heard her speak,

986
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 4: and then at the end she got killed.

987
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good point. I didn't I honestly didn't

988
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 3: even register that, yeah, because I think that like now

989
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 3: We is sort of our main analog into that mentality,

990
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: but she's like punished for it a lot before it's

991
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 3: and oh man, I also I'm like justice for that character.

992
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

993
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,439
Speaker 2: Well, then there's another character named Fumbe who is good

994
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: friends with nawi Is She The character says something like,

995
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: I don't really want to stay and be a warrior,

996
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 2: but I have nowhere else to go, yes, and so

997
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 2: she I feel like maybe they could have explored more

998
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 2: like softness with that character too, especially because she is

999
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 2: not gung ho about being a warrior. And but I

1000
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 2: also that's another friendship. I really liked and yeah, I

1001
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: think maybe if that had been explored further.

1002
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 5: Did not die?

1003
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 2: Oh I I was losing track of who was getting killed.

1004
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 3: I don't think she died. He Wait, no, I.

1005
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: Don't know if we see her in that final battle.

1006
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 3: Wait, that's that's not fair. I mean there's a few

1007
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 3: things for at the end of the movie where we

1008
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 3: were like, huh hah, there's a lot of loops closing

1009
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 3: kind of rapidly, So I feel like I lost track

1010
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 3: of a couple of characters. I honestly forgot by the end.

1011
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, Malik, right, can we talk

1012
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 3: about that really quick? What did you think about the

1013
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 3: romance in this movie?

1014
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 2: I didn't hate it.

1015
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 3: I didn't love it. I didn't love it.

1016
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 2: I was say, but here's why I didn't hate it.

1017
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 2: She challenges him in a lot of ways. She's like, you,

1018
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 2: you're a slaver and he's like, no, I'm not. I'm

1019
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 2: just here because my mom wanted me to be here.

1020
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 3: I'm just hanging out with slave traders. And you're like,

1021
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 3: we're gonna need a better I think we need a

1022
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 3: better answer.

1023
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 2: Yes, maybe I just like him because he's hot, But

1024
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 2: that's entirely possible, but he seems to respect her. I Also,

1025
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 2: what I think I like about it is that I

1026
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 2: appreciate that the movie didn't feel the need to keep

1027
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: them together forever. Yeah, they had this short romance. I'm

1028
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 2: pretty sure they have sex in that like hotel room.

1029
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 3: Or something wherever they are implied.

1030
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but and then they go their separate ways and

1031
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 2: he's like, come with me to England and she's like pass.

1032
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 2: So I appreciate it because I feel like most movies

1033
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 2: would be like, well, they like each other and they

1034
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 2: had sex one time, so now they have to be

1035
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 2: together forever, right, right?

1036
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 3: And I feel like there's also I don't know, like

1037
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 3: because it seems like there are a number of Egojie

1038
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 3: soldiers that are like again, like women often are like

1039
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 3: valued and prized for their chastity, and that is like

1040
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 3: elevates their value as a person. They're so chaste and

1041
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 3: the virginal and all this, and like, just I do

1042
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 3: like representation of losing your virginity and then being like

1043
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 3: and now it's you know, the next day and I'm

1044
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 3: moving on with my life, and it's like not like

1045
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 3: this huge thing that's built out to be I guess

1046
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, I liked what the relationship represented,

1047
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 3: which was like to me like Nawi saying like, well,

1048
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 3: no fuck what the king said about how I can

1049
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 3: like I'm fighting for him every day and I can't

1050
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 3: have a boyfriend, like get a life. I like that

1051
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 3: as like symbolic, like an act of defiance, as like

1052
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 3: symbolic rebellion. Yeah, because usually I don't think you usually

1053
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 3: see a heterosexual relationship as an act of defiance, but

1054
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 3: it is in this and it like does symbolize. And

1055
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 3: I agree with you, Caitlin. I like that it ends

1056
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 3: and it now he's not gonna throw away this community

1057
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 3: and this newfound family and literal like literal and symbolic

1058
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 3: family to move to England with a guy she had

1059
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 3: sex with one time. Like, honestly, that's that's good that

1060
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 3: I was like she was right about that, because sometimes

1061
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, i'd moved to a had sex with

1062
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 3: one time. But but what I what I didn't love

1063
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 3: about I don't know. I just I the act relationship.

1064
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 3: I was not super wild. I think it's just like

1065
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 3: she's too good for him.

1066
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 2: For sure, Like but he's also he's like the least

1067
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 2: worst man in the movie because all the other men, yes,

1068
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 2: are horrible. And I do appreciate that the movie is

1069
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 2: not shy about saying, like, look, how awful men can be.

1070
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 3: I feel like they still let John Vega off the

1071
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 3: hook a little bit. But yeah, I just didn't love

1072
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 3: I didn't love Malik because obviously, now that the Barbie

1073
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 3: trailer is kinda has come out, all I want to

1074
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 3: say is she's everything, He's just Ken. And that's kind

1075
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 3: of how I feel about that relationship. Like now he

1076
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 3: is everything, Malik is just Ken, like he's I wouldn't

1077
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 3: even say he's fine. I mean, I understand, like they

1078
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 3: the script and the story contextualizes his predicament and I

1079
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 3: don't want to oversimplify it, but ultimately he is still,

1080
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 3: you know, hanging out with slave traders, and like, now

1081
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 3: we she's everything, He's just can It's true. It is

1082
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 3: how I feel about the relationship. I don't know, what

1083
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 3: did you make of that? Wrong?

1084
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 4: Kay I felt the same way too. I was really

1085
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 4: hoping that at the end of the movie she wouldn't

1086
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 4: choose to get on the boats with him. That's sad.

1087
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 4: I also admired how much he seemed to love her

1088
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 4: fighting for her, especially at that scene with It's Okay

1089
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 4: where they were being sold or you know, the highest

1090
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 4: bider was looking at how much they would cost, and

1091
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 4: then he came and disrupted the whole thing, and YadA YadA,

1092
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 4: and he disrupted their plans to escape for whatever. Anyway,

1093
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 4: but you know, he was really he was ready to

1094
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 4: put himself on the line. And then obviously a white

1095
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 4: man killed. That means real trouble for the Dahomies and

1096
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 4: all your empire people. But he still kept now in

1097
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 4: his room. That seemed a bit unrealistic to me. I mean,

1098
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 4: how could he have kept her in the same compound

1099
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 4: where the very angry.

1100
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 5: People were and really.

1101
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 4: Couldn't overtake him. Kind of have been planned and he's

1102
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 4: not a fighter exactly. So yeah, it was interesting to

1103
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 4: see that. But in terms of their love, yeah, I

1104
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 4: really liked that now we sort of stood her ground.

1105
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 4: He dictated how she wanted the relationship to be. You know,

1106
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 4: there were times where she was sought with him, not

1107
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 4: a lot, but there were also times where she stood

1108
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 4: up to him and quite boldly too. And again I

1109
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 4: would say I was really scared at the end. Jamie

1110
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 4: liked you that she would just up and go with him,

1111
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 4: especially when he offered her a dress. I thought that

1112
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 4: was the start to or now that she wears the

1113
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 4: dress of the Europeans, she would become one of them.

1114
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 4: But thankfully she didn't. So, yeah, that was quite intriguing

1115
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 4: to watch. Yeah, and I'm not unusual to be hones.

1116
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 4: I again linked it to today's world. There's a lot

1117
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 4: of Europeans or Americans or whatever who go to America,

1118
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 4: to African countries to whether it's for wars or for

1119
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 4: business or for tourism, plash or whatever it is, and

1120
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 4: then they fall in love. You know, it's it's a

1121
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 4: usual story. You fall in love with a black woman,

1122
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 4: and there's you know, controversies around whether you can date

1123
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 4: a black woman or not, or an African woman. So

1124
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 4: it wasn't it wasn't intriguing in the sense that, yeah,

1125
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 4: this is the normal world and this is what.

1126
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 5: We see every time.

1127
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 4: But I loved the twist where and now we did

1128
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:45,599
Speaker 4: not let herself get wiped off her feet because of him.

1129
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 4: You know, she didn't show that, she didn't show that

1130
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 4: she was intrigued by being admired by a white man

1131
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 4: or a slave trader or a mixed race man, whatever

1132
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 4: you want to create us.

1133
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I I hope that like if this, I

1134
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 3: don't know, this doesn't really seem like this, most historical

1135
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 3: epics don't have sequels, but I'm like, I hope, you know,

1136
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 3: like if head canon you go like a couple of

1137
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: years down the line in this story, that now we

1138
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 3: would feel more comfortable to explore a relationship with maybe

1139
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 3: someone who wasn't a slave trader, you know, just an idea,

1140
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 3: but yeah, and that hopefully because because Naniska has gone

1141
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 3: through this transformation and is more open to emotional vulnerability

1142
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:38,120
Speaker 3: and the sort of I guess like quiet emotional rebellion

1143
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 3: that she is able to do, that she would be

1144
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 3: accepting of that because it's like, yeah, like I don't know,

1145
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 3: I think it's so I've been thinking about this a

1146
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 3: lot lately, but like I think it is such a

1147
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 3: trapping of like modern feminism to say like I don't

1148
01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 3: need a man or even a partner because I can

1149
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 3: provide for myself, which is true and like is now

1150
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 3: not as accessible as it should be still, but I

1151
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 3: think that sometimes it is like a little like demonized

1152
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 3: to still want partnership even though you can provide for

1153
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 3: yourself in a way that has not been historically possible before.

1154
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 3: And I like that now we again, it's like I think,

1155
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny because I feel like we keep

1156
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 3: applying the woman King's like eighteen twenty promise to right now.

1157
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 3: But I think that the movie wants you to do

1158
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 3: that in a lot of ways. And I don't know. Wait,

1159
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 3: I have two roads we go down if either of

1160
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 3: your interested. Okay, I love man, I love talking about movies. Okay,

1161
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 3: we can go down the history route or the production route.

1162
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 3: The two roads of discourse lay in front of us.

1163
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 2: I mean we will get to both eventually. Yes, do

1164
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:01,560
Speaker 2: history first?

1165
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 3: Okay, so did did either? I mean I think part

1166
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 3: of why this movie is very I mean there's a

1167
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 3: lot of reasons why this movie is it's important that

1168
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 3: this movie was made, but one of them is just

1169
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 3: this is an area of history that in my you know,

1170
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 3: Massachusetts public school, I did not learn about African history

1171
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 3: really at all. It's soame. I just didn't know and

1172
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 3: it was not prioritized in I think American education across

1173
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 3: I mean American education, how they teach history. It seems

1174
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 3: like it's still somehow getting worse, which is a fucking nightmare.

1175
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,880
Speaker 3: But this was an area of history that I didn't

1176
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 3: know anything about, and so I was excited, especially where

1177
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 3: the movie starts with context that we were saying, like,

1178
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 3: I definitely needed to place you in this world. I

1179
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 3: was interested to read. I don't know. Yeah, did either

1180
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 3: of you know about any of the history of the

1181
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 3: Agoji before seeing this movie? I did not know.

1182
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 4: Not of the acle J. For me, I did off

1183
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 4: the All Your Empire because the All Your Empire is

1184
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 4: now in modern day Niger. It's not a state in

1185
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,959
Speaker 4: modern day Niger. So I knew of the Oio Empire,

1186
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 4: but not of the agog which is a shame to

1187
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 4: my history teachers as well. I would have loved because

1188
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 4: I would have really loved to learn about Not to

1189
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 4: distract from the story, but I would have really loved

1190
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,640
Speaker 4: to learn more about historical feminism in Africa.

1191
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1192
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 4: Wow, I was still in high school and not you know,

1193
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 4: when my life has gone through Tomoriles and I'm like, oh, wow,

1194
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 4: there were actually women in the eighteen hundreds who were fighters,

1195
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 4: But that's a that's another story. But short answered, No,

1196
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:47,519
Speaker 4: I never heard of the as before it's.

1197
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:48,600
Speaker 3: So true that I feel like there it reminds me

1198
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:51,719
Speaker 3: of our our friend Margaret Kiljoy has this amazing podcast

1199
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 3: called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, and the whole

1200
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 3: mission of it is to, yeah, like bring figures that

1201
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 3: have been buried by historical quote unquote disinterest and like

1202
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 3: bring them to the forefront and be like, Nope, women

1203
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 3: have always been fucking cool, and like.

1204
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 2: They were cool people which doing cool stuff.

1205
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 3: So anyways, I was as I was watching the movie,

1206
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, there's so many parallels to discussions

1207
01:13:21,160 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 3: we're having in the West today. And it turns out

1208
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,839
Speaker 3: that that is sort of by design because this movie,

1209
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 3: for as much as I enjoyed it, and as much

1210
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 3: as it seems like everyone who saw it enjoyed it,

1211
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 3: there has been a fair amount of criticism about its

1212
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:42,879
Speaker 3: historical accuracy and almost like prioritizing making sure it speaks

1213
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 3: to a Western audience, not just a Western audience, but

1214
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:52,240
Speaker 3: a Western audience is understanding of slave trading versus historical

1215
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,760
Speaker 3: accuracy of what was actually going on at this time.

1216
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 3: And I don't like, I don't know it's I'm going

1217
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 3: to quote for a New Yorker piece by Julian Lucas

1218
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 3: who sort of unpacks this. And I think that there

1219
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 3: are there most reviews of this movie mentioned like, yeah,

1220
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:16,799
Speaker 3: it's not super historically accurate, but like it's fucking amazing.

1221
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 3: It's The Woman King, so relax, which I think is

1222
01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 3: a fair stance to take. And I also think that

1223
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 3: you know it name a historical epic movie that is

1224
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 3: like known for its historical accuracy, it's not really what

1225
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 3: the genre is known for. And I feel like it

1226
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 3: almost has like like any subgenre, but like almost like

1227
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 3: a horror movie thing where it's like, yeah, this historical

1228
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 3: epic is being made in this specific time for a reason,

1229
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 3: so it's probably trying to speak to people about something specific.

1230
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 3: But okay, this is from the New Yorker piece quote.

1231
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 3: The Woman King has been billed as a powerful true story,

1232
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 3: but one wonders what Cassola and Hurston, one of America's

1233
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:07,040
Speaker 3: first black women filmmakers. He's referencing Zorneil Hurston and Alulay

1234
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:11,799
Speaker 3: Cossola to writers and filmmakers, But one wonders what Cosola

1235
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 3: and Hurston, one of America's first black women filmmakers, would

1236
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 3: make of its narrative. For one thing, King Gezo was

1237
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 3: not a reluctant participant in the slave trade. He fought

1238
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:24,640
Speaker 3: hard to preserve it from the British, formerly his favorite customers,

1239
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 3: who blockaded the coast and unsuccessfully lobbied for abolition at

1240
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 3: his court. His defeat of Oyo led to an explosion

1241
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 3: in the number of slaves sold at Oida, a commerce

1242
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 3: that he zealously defended, once giving a British envoy a

1243
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 3: six year old girl as a gift for Queen Victoria.

1244
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,560
Speaker 3: Nor do I know of any evidence that the Agojee

1245
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:47,599
Speaker 3: ever resisted the trade. Some used their voices to clamor

1246
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:50,759
Speaker 3: for war in the Royal Council, expressing on one occasion

1247
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 3: a preference for invading weaker neighbors. Quote. If we fail

1248
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 3: to catch elephants, let us be content with flies unquote.

1249
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 3: The film's conceit is charitably an elaborate exercise in wishful thinking.

1250
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 3: Wouldn't it be nice if Tohomie's brave women warriors had

1251
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 3: also been fighters for justice. Defenders of white supremacy have

1252
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 3: often exploited these uncomfortable truths. Apologists for the slave trade

1253
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,599
Speaker 3: once used Dahomie's bloodthirsty reputation to claim that they were

1254
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 3: rescuing their victims from human sacrifice. Imperialists used similar rhetoric

1255
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 3: to justify colonial conquest as a form of abolition. In reality, though,

1256
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 3: African forms of slavery didn't compare with the radicalized industrial

1257
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 3: variance that Western empires unleashed upon the world unquote, So

1258
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 3: all I did, I mean, this is again like we

1259
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,719
Speaker 3: none of us knew this history specifically, and I kind

1260
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 3: of assumed that this movie would skew more historically accurate,

1261
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:50,360
Speaker 3: which is like, maybe not fair of me to like.

1262
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 3: And then he goes on to suggest, like, well, if

1263
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 3: you wanted to emphasize the power of the Agoji, they

1264
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 3: could have chosen this period versus the period that they chose,

1265
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:06,599
Speaker 3: because it seems like in this moment specifically, certainly King Gezo,

1266
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 3: I don't know, like reading, because I watched the movie

1267
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 3: and then learned the history and then watch the movie again,

1268
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 3: and the ending scene with King Gezo does not go

1269
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,759
Speaker 3: down as well once you know that the historical figure

1270
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 3: was actively participating in the slave trade enthusiastically the entire

1271
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 3: time for personal profit and was very complicit in the

1272
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 3: subjugation of his own people. And then you have John

1273
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 3: Boyega being like abolition now and.

1274
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 2: You're like, right, so, yes, there were liberties taken with history,

1275
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 2: as we've said a lot of historical epic cinema, does

1276
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a really big liberty, huge liberty. I

1277
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 2: guess I wonder what would the value have been to

1278
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 2: depict history exactly as it happened in this instance and

1279
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 2: that way, you have this movie about these warriors who

1280
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 2: are like not necessarily fighting for justice, they're just fighting

1281
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:11,920
Speaker 2: to like uphold the status quo of the slave trade.

1282
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 2: And then you have this king who's like, yeah, let's

1283
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 2: keep being slavers, and then that yes, that would have

1284
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 2: been historically accurate. But do we need a movie about that?

1285
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 1: Two?

1286
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 3: I totally agree, I mean, I totally agree. I just

1287
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 3: I don't I mean, I don't have a good answer

1288
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,919
Speaker 3: for that. I think that this writer tries to suggest

1289
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 3: different periods of time in the Agoji's history that would

1290
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 3: not be chafing with the reality of the period quite

1291
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 3: so much. I don't know, I'd be interested to know

1292
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,639
Speaker 3: what our listeners think about this, because I I don't

1293
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 3: really like, I don't know. I mean, that's a making king.

1294
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 3: I mean, and again, it's like, you don't need to

1295
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:58,880
Speaker 3: write it so that King Gaza is an abolitionist by

1296
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 3: the end of the movie didn't need to happen. It's

1297
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 3: a very Hollywood ending. Yeah, exactly exactly. I think that, like, honestly,

1298
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 3: I didn't mind the creative liberty taken that Naniska was

1299
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,760
Speaker 3: opposed to the slave trade. I think that that like

1300
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 3: is a creative liberty that makes a ton of sense,

1301
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,720
Speaker 3: and it like keeps us with the Agogi. It's not

1302
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 3: you know, And I know that this piece says that

1303
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 3: in general the Agogi were often complicit in this, but

1304
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:28,880
Speaker 3: I think that the way that it's written of saying

1305
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 3: like because at the beginning, Naniska is complicit in it,

1306
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 3: but she is trying to actively make it stop. So

1307
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 3: that made sense to me. I think it was just

1308
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 3: the King Gezo creative liberties that was I think a

1309
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 3: line for me. Yeah, the creative liberties within the Agoji

1310
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 3: I wasn't as bothered by because I agree, it's like,

1311
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 3: you know, you want to get on board with this story,

1312
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 3: but I don't know. And especially because the what is

1313
01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 3: the name of the army that is in black Panther

1314
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:11,639
Speaker 3: we said it earlier, we forgot brain Dora Dora Melogi. Yeah,

1315
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 3: they were, so they were inspired by the Agoji and

1316
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:17,759
Speaker 3: so like as we can see in the Black Panther franchise.

1317
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 3: Because it's inspired by and not explicitly the Agoji, you

1318
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:26,559
Speaker 3: can take exclusively creative liberties. But I think, I mean,

1319
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 3: it's it is kind of just like something that we

1320
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 3: see in movies a lot that say they're based on

1321
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 3: a true story. There's never any clear disclosure of like

1322
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 3: this is the creative liberties that we took, which I

1323
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 3: don't know. I mean, I I don't want to imply that.

1324
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. Historical filmmaking in general is

1325
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 3: mostly fake, and I guess that I don't know. I

1326
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 3: had I was interested to learn the history because it's

1327
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 3: especially because the king subjugated is on people really really aggressively.

1328
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,919
Speaker 3: Don't give them an abolitionist speech at the end.

1329
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do have an interesting perspective. But firstly, Jimmy,

1330
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:08,240
Speaker 4: big ups to you for watching reading the history, and

1331
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:10,600
Speaker 4: then going back to watching it, because I think it

1332
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 4: gives you a whole new perspective.

1333
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,320
Speaker 3: It's still why don't you do that?

1334
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 4: So you know, I tried to do the same thing

1335
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 4: and read up about the history of the movie, because

1336
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 4: when I wrote about it, people said I was also

1337
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 4: supporting a rewrite of history. So I went to check myself,

1338
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:31,720
Speaker 4: and you know, maybe to frame this with there's an

1339
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 4: African proverb that says, until the lion can tell his story,

1340
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 4: the hunter will always win, or the hunter's story will

1341
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 4: always be it, but basically saying, you know, because the

1342
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 4: lion dies, just nobody to tell the lion's story, and

1343
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:47,519
Speaker 4: in this case it is.

1344
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:49,839
Speaker 5: One of the things I found was that the.

1345
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 4: Actual history of the Alcoa Jas or most of the

1346
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:55,719
Speaker 4: actual history of the Acho Jase that you can find,

1347
01:21:56,240 --> 01:22:00,639
Speaker 4: has been written by Europeans, right, and not necessarily by

1348
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 4: people from Bener Republic, which is the new you know,

1349
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:08,679
Speaker 4: where modern day the Dahomies are, and so it's hard

1350
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,720
Speaker 4: to say how much of that has been influenced by

1351
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 4: the Europeans who were mostly the actual slave traders, or

1352
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:19,240
Speaker 4: at least who received most of the slaves. And that

1353
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 4: just really made me feel like, oh my god. This

1354
01:22:22,080 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 4: is deeper than just a criticism of the movie and

1355
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 4: how much history is in it. It's also a criticism

1356
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:33,160
Speaker 4: of where it's the history of the ago Jays in

1357
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 4: the world, who has written them, What biases did they hold,

1358
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 4: what stories.

1359
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 5: Do they adjust for their own selves.

1360
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 4: I'm not a historian, so I haven't like really deep

1361
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 4: dived into all of this, but yeah, it just gave

1362
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:52,599
Speaker 4: me a whole new perspective. And it's not just about

1363
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:56,360
Speaker 4: the agogist. There's so much about African history that I

1364
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:00,599
Speaker 4: think isn't written by Africans, and so I personally the struggle.

1365
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 4: You know, when you read about whether it's the slave

1366
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 4: trade or colonialism, or how Christianity and other religion was

1367
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:11,400
Speaker 4: brought into African countries, it's very hard to find those

1368
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 4: tales written by Africans who experienced all whose family's experience,

1369
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:17,800
Speaker 4: and so it's written by Europeans, and it's very hard

1370
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:21,639
Speaker 4: to know if you should take it hook line and sinker,

1371
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 4: or if you recognize the bias there.

1372
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 2: I read on scholarly journal Wikipedia. The director Gina Prince Spythewood.

1373
01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:36,600
Speaker 2: As she was researching for this movie, she had a

1374
01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:40,360
Speaker 2: really hard time finding accounts of the Agoji that were

1375
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:44,479
Speaker 2: not written by Europeans and like people who were like

1376
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 2: speaking about these warriors in a very like disparaging and

1377
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 2: disrespectful way. So she had to like really dive to

1378
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:57,360
Speaker 2: find accurate and unbiased accounts.

1379
01:23:56,920 --> 01:23:59,679
Speaker 3: Well even where they even where they found the names

1380
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 3: Niniska and Nawi those are yeah, those are from accounts

1381
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 3: of colonizers. Which, yeah, that's a really good point. Ron

1382
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 3: kay where Yeah, like history and this is like I

1383
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 3: guess part of the reason we didn't know this story

1384
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 3: at all to any degree, and so we're like, yeah,

1385
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 3: the Woman King is probably a documentary, which shouldn't be

1386
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 3: the responsibility of a historical epic. You know, it's like that,

1387
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:28,639
Speaker 3: it's such a complicated thing. Yeah, that's a really good point.

1388
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 3: But then like the good proverb too, I want to

1389
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 3: read that.

1390
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then like the flip side of that is that, yes,

1391
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 2: there are historical liberties and inaccuracies taken with this movie,

1392
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,160
Speaker 2: but just from like a very I guess maybe surface

1393
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:50,599
Speaker 2: level point of view. Again, like nothing I learned in

1394
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:56,679
Speaker 2: school about the slave trade focused at all on what

1395
01:24:56,760 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 2: was happening in Africa, And none of them move I've

1396
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 2: watched about slavery have been told from the perspective of

1397
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 2: like they were always told the movie, of the movies

1398
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: I've seen about it, it was always told from the

1399
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,880
Speaker 2: perspective of the people who had already been sold into

1400
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 2: slavery and were working on plantations, and you know, those

1401
01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 2: are important stories to tell, of course, but there's so

1402
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:25,599
Speaker 2: many of them, and it kind of erases part of

1403
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 2: the narrative of like the people who were sold into slavery,

1404
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:34,280
Speaker 2: and it erases like their lives and their culture in

1405
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:39,680
Speaker 2: their homeland pre being stolen and human trafficked. So I

1406
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:43,320
Speaker 2: had never seen anything in media or like again, anything

1407
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 2: I ever learned in school that was focused on the

1408
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 2: perspective that you'd see in The Woman King, right, So

1409
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:52,599
Speaker 2: at the very least, like this movie is valuable in

1410
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:58,639
Speaker 2: showing and again there's inaccuracies along the way, but it's

1411
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 2: also polling from a lot of history and to show

1412
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:07,360
Speaker 2: that perspective was super valuable for me, having never seen

1413
01:26:07,560 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 2: anything like that in like American media or American education.

1414
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, I mean, I think again, it's my

1415
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 3: This is like I think just a preference that this

1416
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 3: is true of all historical movies for me, is that

1417
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 3: because Naniska is not a real person who exists, you

1418
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 3: have a ton of creative liberty. You have a ton

1419
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 3: of freedom. Every soldier that we see in the Agoji,

1420
01:26:33,439 --> 01:26:37,519
Speaker 3: we're not real people, and if you're attributing stuff to

1421
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 3: a real person and a real leader, I feel like

1422
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 3: there is a line of where creative liberty is appropriate.

1423
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:49,639
Speaker 3: But that's also just my opinion. I have one more

1424
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 3: chunk from this New Yorker piece I'd like to share.

1425
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:56,640
Speaker 3: I also didn't know that Lupita Nyango was supposed to

1426
01:26:56,680 --> 01:26:59,000
Speaker 3: be in this movie and then she dropped out. Yeah,

1427
01:26:59,160 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 3: so this piece is very much speculating as to why.

1428
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 3: But I just wanted to share this really quick. So

1429
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 3: from the same New Yorker piece quote, but you don't

1430
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 3: have to take my word for it. In twenty eighteen,

1431
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:13,320
Speaker 3: when TriStar announced The Woman King, Lupita Nyango had been

1432
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,719
Speaker 3: cast as Nawi. Fresh off the success of Black Panther.

1433
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 3: The Kenyan Mexican star was apparently so excited about her

1434
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 3: new role that she visited Benin to make a short

1435
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 3: documentary on the Agoji, possibly intended to build hype for

1436
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 3: The Woman King. It also unravels the film's heroic premise,

1437
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,719
Speaker 3: as Niango's Beninese guide disillusions her about the Dahomeian legacy.

1438
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:37,200
Speaker 3: Niango begins her journey enthusing about how dope it is

1439
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:40,759
Speaker 3: to be in the land of the Amazons. She's fine, okay,

1440
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,919
Speaker 3: but after a sobering encounter with Gaezo's skull mounted throne,

1441
01:27:46,040 --> 01:27:48,639
Speaker 3: she accepts that quote. Any notion of the Agoji being

1442
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 3: a beacon of enlightened feminism like the Doramlogi in Wakanda

1443
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 3: is long gone unquote. The emotional climax is an interview

1444
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:59,520
Speaker 3: with the elderly granddaughter of a woman enslaved by the Amazons,

1445
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 3: who laments that she will never know her family in

1446
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:05,600
Speaker 3: present day in Nigeria. Quote what the Egoji did was

1447
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:08,320
Speaker 3: not good at all, the old woman insists, not good

1448
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:12,400
Speaker 3: at all. As the woman sings a Yoruba melody, Nyango

1449
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:15,839
Speaker 3: begins to cry, wondering aloud how she can reconcile celebrating

1450
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:20,680
Speaker 3: the Agoji with the bereavement of their victim's descendants. And

1451
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 3: then we don't know why she ended up leaving the movie.

1452
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 3: But I also didn't know that short doc existed, So

1453
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:30,080
Speaker 3: it's very, very complicated.

1454
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:35,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's almost as if all history is fraught

1455
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:43,880
Speaker 2: with horror, yes, violence and prejudice.

1456
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 3: Again, this is like, I'm not arguing against the movie's existence.

1457
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:51,240
Speaker 3: I really really enjoyed the movie, but I don't know

1458
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,799
Speaker 3: that's I think why I struggle with historical epics in general,

1459
01:28:54,880 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 3: where you're like, hmm, what anyways, But I also want

1460
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 3: to make sure that we are talking about the other

1461
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 3: big conversation that surrounded this movie that is very much

1462
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:11,240
Speaker 3: rooted in the here and now, which is how difficult

1463
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:15,240
Speaker 3: it was to get this movie made and the very

1464
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 3: mister Hollywood reasons why it was really difficult to get made.

1465
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,479
Speaker 2: So just kind of preliminary information as far as who's

1466
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:28,599
Speaker 2: behind the camera for this movie. It was directed by

1467
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:32,360
Speaker 2: a black woman, Gina Prince Spythewood, who we've covered on

1468
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 2: the show before because she directed Love and Basketball as

1469
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 2: well as The Old Guard, Secret Life of Bees, Beyond

1470
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,560
Speaker 2: the Lights. She's also directed quite a bit of television

1471
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:46,200
Speaker 2: like Girlfriends, Everyone Hates Chris, and The Bernie Mac Show.

1472
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:52,839
Speaker 2: The movie was written by Dana Stevens, with like story

1473
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:58,480
Speaker 2: by credits from Dana Stevens and Maria Bellow.

1474
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 3: Bellow Okay.

1475
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:06,720
Speaker 2: And we're back and we're back to Yes, Dana Stevens.

1476
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,320
Speaker 2: She's a screenwriter who's written a number of things like

1477
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:14,120
Speaker 2: City of Angels, for Love of the Game, Steve Haven,

1478
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:17,439
Speaker 2: which I think is a movie adapted from a Nicholas

1479
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 2: Sparks book.

1480
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,559
Speaker 3: Oh really wow, and range, I'm pretty sure.

1481
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 2: And then Maria Bello has mostly worked as an actor

1482
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,280
Speaker 2: and I recognize her from Coyote Ugly. She plays like

1483
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:31,200
Speaker 2: the bar owner in Coyote Ugly.

1484
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:34,200
Speaker 3: Oh wow, wow, a lot of range taking place here.

1485
01:30:34,360 --> 01:30:39,840
Speaker 2: Yes, Dana Stevens and Maria Bello are both white women.

1486
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 2: The whole kind of conceit of this movie happened when

1487
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 2: Maria Bella Bello I'm sure it's Bello. In twenty fifteen,

1488
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:56,920
Speaker 2: she went to Benin in West Africa, specifically to learn

1489
01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:59,559
Speaker 2: about the history of the Agogi. It seems like she

1490
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:01,720
Speaker 2: went on or I don't know if she like went

1491
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 2: and then learned about it or went with the intent

1492
01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:07,439
Speaker 2: of learning about them. Either way, she was like, there's

1493
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 2: definitely like a story here, there's a there's a movie

1494
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 2: we can make about this. So she returned to La

1495
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 2: She recruited a producer, later pitched the idea to Viola Davis.

1496
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 2: They found a screenwrapolic which I yet which like till

1497
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:26,240
Speaker 2: he puts I was, You're oh, by the way, you're like,

1498
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 2: she's Maria. And then Jamie, I think you might have

1499
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:34,439
Speaker 2: more information. I just have like a very brief overview.

1500
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 2: I don't know if you have more.

1501
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 3: Okay, So yeah, I mean this, I think we've heard

1502
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 3: this story many times. Unfortunately, at this point where this

1503
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:46,479
Speaker 3: movie was, I mean like a lot of ois. It

1504
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 3: was in kind of development hell for a long time,

1505
01:31:49,680 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 3: starting in twenty fifteen. But a lot of it was

1506
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 3: because of Hollywood and producers, especially the further back you go,

1507
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 3: uh doubt that a majority black cast could be successful

1508
01:32:05,439 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 3: on a blockbuster scale, which is unfortunately something that we

1509
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 3: hear a lot. And so you know, having Viola Davis

1510
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 3: involved was really really critical because she has such star power.

1511
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:23,160
Speaker 3: There was also a fair amount of colorism that Gina

1512
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:26,759
Speaker 3: Prince Bythewood described in the casting of this movie, where

1513
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:30,679
Speaker 3: before Viola Davis signed on, a lot of more light

1514
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:35,280
Speaker 3: skinned women were floated as playing Naniska as opposed to

1515
01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:39,920
Speaker 3: what would be historically accurate, and fortunately a battle that

1516
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:46,200
Speaker 3: was won. But I have a quote from Viola Davis

1517
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:49,679
Speaker 3: sort of speaking to this point. She says, the part

1518
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:51,360
Speaker 3: of the movie that we love is also the part

1519
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:53,640
Speaker 3: of the movie that is terrifying to Hollywood, which is

1520
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:56,559
Speaker 3: it's different, it's new. We don't always want different or

1521
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:58,760
Speaker 3: new unless you have a big star attached, a big

1522
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:01,920
Speaker 3: male star with studios like it when women are pretty

1523
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:04,840
Speaker 3: and blonde or close to pretty and blonde, all of

1524
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:08,320
Speaker 3: these women are dark and they're beating men. So there

1525
01:33:08,360 --> 01:33:11,679
Speaker 3: you go. And that was just her talking about why

1526
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:14,080
Speaker 3: it was it took so long. And we've heard this

1527
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 3: a few times now, because I can't believe, like Black

1528
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:21,360
Speaker 3: Panther came out like almost five years ago now, but

1529
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:26,760
Speaker 3: it wasn't until Black Panther was massively successful with a

1530
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:29,599
Speaker 3: woman army that was based on the Agoji that this

1531
01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 3: movie got a meaningful push ahead. And so again like

1532
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 3: this is everything is incremental and and then at that

1533
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 3: point I believe Gina Prince Bythewoold signed on. She said

1534
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 3: to I think that she did do some work on

1535
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:48,600
Speaker 3: the script, but she's not a credited writer. But I

1536
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:51,400
Speaker 3: just I thought it was like, I mean, Gina Prince Bythewood,

1537
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:55,880
Speaker 3: like she walks the walk hard, she's so fucking cool,

1538
01:33:56,360 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 3: Like she advocates for having diversity and giving people opportunities

1539
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:06,840
Speaker 3: that most filmmakers in most systems do not prioritize. I

1540
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:11,680
Speaker 3: wanted to share a quote from her about really prioritizing

1541
01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:16,080
Speaker 3: having a lot of diversity and women and people of

1542
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 3: color behind the scenes as well, because as we talk

1543
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 3: about all the time, that does not always happen. But

1544
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 3: she says the thing is for women and people of color,

1545
01:34:25,439 --> 01:34:28,240
Speaker 3: often the resumes are not long because it's about lack

1546
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 3: of opportunity, not lack of talent. So when you're in

1547
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 3: my position, it's important to look past that resume. And yeah,

1548
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:39,040
Speaker 3: I mean, she's the coolest. And she also wrote that

1549
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:45,559
Speaker 3: kick ass. Okay, take that that word feels That word

1550
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 3: feels very twenty thirteen coded to me for some reason.

1551
01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:55,720
Speaker 3: I take that back. She wrote a really good op

1552
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:59,960
Speaker 3: ed when the Woman King was snubbed. It was published

1553
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 3: in the Hollywood Reporter, and she's just like, I mean,

1554
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:08,360
Speaker 3: she's been historically very outspoken speaking on behalf of marginalized filmmakers,

1555
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 3: both on behalf of women and on behalf of Black

1556
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:15,879
Speaker 3: women specifically, and I think that that op ed prompted

1557
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:19,639
Speaker 3: a lot of discussion that was like, very needed. So

1558
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 3: I wanted to just share a quote from that. I

1559
01:35:22,360 --> 01:35:25,799
Speaker 3: believe this is at the end quote. It's a difficult

1560
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,719
Speaker 3: thing to know for every black filmmaker and definitely every

1561
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:32,200
Speaker 3: black female filmmaker that your work is not valued in

1562
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:35,720
Speaker 3: the same way. This is a systemic American problem, which

1563
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:38,800
Speaker 3: is why this felt so insidious and large. It's tough

1564
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:41,200
Speaker 3: to enter something that's supposed to be judged on merit

1565
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:46,120
Speaker 3: but you know, it's not a meritocracy unquote. And I mean, we'll,

1566
01:35:46,200 --> 01:35:52,240
Speaker 3: we'll link it. It's a really good piece and yeah,

1567
01:35:52,280 --> 01:35:55,760
Speaker 3: so I mean this. Unfortunately, like we hear a lot,

1568
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:59,680
Speaker 3: this movie was not easy to get made, but it

1569
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 3: did end up getting made on a pretty large scale.

1570
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 3: It has a fifty million dollar budget and it made

1571
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:09,200
Speaker 3: around one hundred million dollars. It was successful. And so

1572
01:36:09,360 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 3: once again, mister Hollywood is fucking wrong. What do you know?

1573
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:18,839
Speaker 2: Something I was curious about and kind of surprised by

1574
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:24,599
Speaker 2: when I learned who wrote the screenplay and developed the story. Again,

1575
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:30,240
Speaker 2: these these two white women, white American women. I was

1576
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 2: curious about because we've often talked about movies that we've

1577
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:39,680
Speaker 2: covered that make an attempt at, you know, a feminist

1578
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:46,440
Speaker 2: theme or are trying to say something about race or racism,

1579
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:50,800
Speaker 2: but the movie doesn't quite stick the landing or go

1580
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 2: far enough, usually because it was written by someone whose

1581
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:59,200
Speaker 2: perspective is not it'll be you know, written by a

1582
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:04,040
Speaker 2: white person or a man or both. So so there's

1583
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:07,680
Speaker 2: often a for effort, a for effort, but like the

1584
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:12,200
Speaker 2: perspective wasn't quite there and not enough consulting was done.

1585
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,600
Speaker 2: So I'm curious Ranke, if you have any thoughts on

1586
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:21,120
Speaker 2: aside from the very obvious thing of the people of

1587
01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:27,360
Speaker 2: Dahom speaking English. Right aside from that obvious thing, were

1588
01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:31,200
Speaker 2: there other things that made it particularly obvious that this movie,

1589
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 2: which is about black women in Africa, that it was

1590
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 2: written by white women from America? Or does it feel

1591
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:43,560
Speaker 2: like they did enough research and that they handled the

1592
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 2: subject matter with enough care that it wasn't super obvious.

1593
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:49,400
Speaker 2: Do you have any thoughts on that?

1594
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:52,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, when I first watched the movie, and I've

1595
01:37:52,280 --> 01:37:55,160
Speaker 4: seen it three times, the first time I thought, oh gosh,

1596
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:56,720
Speaker 4: beautiful powerful.

1597
01:37:56,280 --> 01:37:57,280
Speaker 5: Women, black women.

1598
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:00,559
Speaker 4: And then the second time, after reading some of the

1599
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:03,720
Speaker 4: history and things that went back and what then it

1600
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,720
Speaker 4: was like, hmm, you know, if a black person, I

1601
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 4: think if a black screenwriter was behind the movie, they

1602
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:14,479
Speaker 4: would have really brought out Malik and the other guy

1603
01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:18,000
Speaker 4: who died by the shallow water as some of the

1604
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:22,160
Speaker 4: real villains in the movie. I think the way it is,

1605
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:26,120
Speaker 4: the Portuguese people, whether Malik and the other guy are

1606
01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 4: the ones who were doing the beats, were very They

1607
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:31,840
Speaker 4: weren't really the bad people. They were bad, but it

1608
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:34,320
Speaker 4: was more about the all your empire and the Daho

1609
01:38:34,320 --> 01:38:36,960
Speaker 4: mades promoting slave trade and doing everything. You know, the

1610
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:38,800
Speaker 4: Portuguese were seen as the ones who brought the night

1611
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:42,879
Speaker 4: gifts and who gave access to the sea and whatever

1612
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:45,840
Speaker 4: had the shiny boats. It wasn't about the fact that

1613
01:38:45,920 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 4: they were the ones in true history who were behind

1614
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:53,679
Speaker 4: slave trade. And this is a whole it's a bone

1615
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:56,200
Speaker 4: of contentional. You know, there are people who argue that

1616
01:38:56,760 --> 01:39:00,640
Speaker 4: the Africans, who sold their people where was responsible for

1617
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:02,920
Speaker 4: slave trade, and there are others who argue that the

1618
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:07,599
Speaker 4: Bias and mostly the Europeans or sometimes the Americans, were

1619
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:10,479
Speaker 4: responsible for six Suite. So anyway, my point really is

1620
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:13,160
Speaker 4: that I think we would have seen that inherent bias

1621
01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:16,000
Speaker 4: if the tables were turned, and if it was written

1622
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:20,160
Speaker 4: by black script writers, you'd see more of how terrible

1623
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 4: the Portuguese were. Otherwise, I really really loved how much

1624
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:30,639
Speaker 4: of the culture was brought out, the music, the dance,

1625
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:40,400
Speaker 4: sharing blades like using one blade on several people. The clothing,

1626
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 4: the facial expressions. You know, I felt as an African woman,

1627
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:47,800
Speaker 4: as an and Geeran woman. I felt very close to

1628
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 4: home by seeing all of that. But again, you know,

1629
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:53,679
Speaker 4: there's one thing in seeing the movie from face value

1630
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:56,160
Speaker 4: and just watching it because it's a nice movie, and

1631
01:39:56,200 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 4: there's another thing in trying to interrogate the history and

1632
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:01,799
Speaker 4: the race of the people behind it or their gender.

1633
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:05,519
Speaker 4: So for me, first value at that movie, I didn't

1634
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:09,440
Speaker 4: think anything was wrong. I left the culture display on reflection.

1635
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:11,680
Speaker 4: It was a bit of okay, yeah, maybe this is

1636
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 4: not really telling the true story of the rule of

1637
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:18,520
Speaker 4: the slave traders here, right.

1638
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:24,479
Speaker 2: Because they really lean into general oba as being like, yes,

1639
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:28,320
Speaker 2: the exact really worst man alive.

1640
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:33,559
Speaker 3: Exactly, he's the worst bad guys you said earlier, Yeah, exactly,

1641
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:36,280
Speaker 3: the worst back, which is like a trophy that props

1642
01:40:36,360 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 3: up in different ways. But it did feel like, yeah,

1643
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:42,880
Speaker 3: he was implied to be worse than the Portuguese, which

1644
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 3: does not make sense to me, Like, I think you

1645
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 3: can be obviously complicit in the way that I am

1646
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:54,880
Speaker 3: coming down hard on the king, but like you can

1647
01:40:54,920 --> 01:40:57,559
Speaker 3: be complicit, but that doesn't Yeah, that felt a little

1648
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:00,320
Speaker 3: false equivalence. That's a good point, yeah, yep.

1649
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:03,479
Speaker 4: Other than that again, I just really want to say

1650
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:05,519
Speaker 4: how much I love the culture or like just watching

1651
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 4: them dance. It wasn't just about moving their buddies. It

1652
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:12,080
Speaker 4: was the power and the energy, you know, and how

1653
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:15,280
Speaker 4: much their fit were heating the ground. It was the

1654
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:17,559
Speaker 4: right color of sand of dust.

1655
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:19,080
Speaker 5: And I know, this.

1656
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:22,840
Speaker 4: Is really crazy. If I remember one time I traveled

1657
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:24,719
Speaker 4: to Nigeria, I came back to the UK to London,

1658
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:28,280
Speaker 4: and I went to wash my hair and there was

1659
01:41:28,400 --> 01:41:30,800
Speaker 4: a lot of dust for my trip in my hair.

1660
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:33,599
Speaker 4: And I remember the hairdresser calling her colleagues to come

1661
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:38,719
Speaker 4: see what Nigerian sand looks like, because it was really

1662
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:40,920
Speaker 4: red and stuff. And that was really funny to me.

1663
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:45,639
Speaker 4: I was like Nigerian sand, but on reflection, you actually

1664
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:47,439
Speaker 4: don't find, at least in my part of London.

1665
01:41:47,439 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 5: I never really seen red sand.

1666
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:51,920
Speaker 4: But the movie had that, like I think it was

1667
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 4: it went down to the detail of what those communities

1668
01:41:56,960 --> 01:42:01,200
Speaker 4: looked like, the indigo dye boiling in the well somewhere,

1669
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:05,000
Speaker 4: the walls, maybe not the clothings of the queens, but

1670
01:42:05,040 --> 01:42:06,879
Speaker 4: then I mean that was the eighteen hundreds.

1671
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:08,080
Speaker 5: I don't think. I don't know.

1672
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:10,439
Speaker 4: Maybe Queen's dressed like that, then I think that was

1673
01:42:10,439 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 4: a bit extra vagance for West Africa. I don't think

1674
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:16,160
Speaker 4: we got that out. They got the outfit right for

1675
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:20,559
Speaker 4: the West African queens. But otherwise it was such a beautiful,

1676
01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 4: we done movie in terms of the culture.

1677
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:24,760
Speaker 3: That was displayed. Oh that's good to hear.

1678
01:42:25,040 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1679
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:30,280
Speaker 3: I also is reading just Gina Prince Bythewood. I thought

1680
01:42:30,320 --> 01:42:32,719
Speaker 3: it was I was so curious of like what movie

1681
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:34,760
Speaker 3: she was thinking about. It's just like I like to

1682
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:37,920
Speaker 3: know that in general. But she said some of her inspiration.

1683
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:41,439
Speaker 3: She said when she was staging. Oh it feels bad

1684
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:44,519
Speaker 3: to phrase it that way, but when Niska is having

1685
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:49,839
Speaker 3: flashbacks to being assaulted, that she went to Christine blasi

1686
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:54,640
Speaker 3: Ford's testimony a lot in building out what that was

1687
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,760
Speaker 3: supposed to look and feel like. And also had the

1688
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:03,759
Speaker 3: actor who was playing young Naniska read Roxanne Gay's Hunger,

1689
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:08,599
Speaker 3: which is book about her assault. So I thought that

1690
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:11,320
Speaker 3: was really interesting. And then she also said what was

1691
01:43:11,360 --> 01:43:13,840
Speaker 3: like She referenced a couple of she I think she

1692
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:17,439
Speaker 3: referenced like Gladiator as like when she was looking at

1693
01:43:17,479 --> 01:43:22,240
Speaker 3: staging the fights. Brave Heart was another one, Braveheart I've

1694
01:43:22,240 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 3: never seen Braveheart, and Last of the Mohicans, which I

1695
01:43:25,280 --> 01:43:30,040
Speaker 3: haven't seen it. I don't think I want to. But anyways, Gladiator.

1696
01:43:30,479 --> 01:43:34,240
Speaker 2: One of the last things I want to say, because

1697
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:38,920
Speaker 2: we touched on like women as warriors, because we've talked

1698
01:43:39,080 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 2: a million times about the tropes surrounding women fighting on

1699
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,400
Speaker 2: screen and like their fight choreography. We're talking a lot

1700
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:51,040
Speaker 2: about it recently on the john Wick episode. I don't

1701
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:52,880
Speaker 2: think we need to rehash most of it. But the

1702
01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:54,800
Speaker 2: one thing that I do want to point out that

1703
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:57,720
Speaker 2: we haven't really touched on quite as much is the

1704
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:01,519
Speaker 2: sort of like level of groundness when it comes to

1705
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:04,880
Speaker 2: the violence, because I feel like usually when you see

1706
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:09,040
Speaker 2: women fighting on screen, even if they kill someone, the

1707
01:44:09,160 --> 01:44:15,080
Speaker 2: violence is not very graphic. Like there's sort of this

1708
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:18,240
Speaker 2: idea that like, oh, when women kill people, it has

1709
01:44:18,320 --> 01:44:22,120
Speaker 2: to be you know, it's either implied or like, it

1710
01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:24,439
Speaker 2: can't be bloody. Yeah, it has to be fine, it

1711
01:44:24,439 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 2: has to be right, or the other thing you'll see

1712
01:44:29,640 --> 01:44:31,840
Speaker 2: is that I feel like women are way more likely

1713
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:36,040
Speaker 2: to be seen showing mercy than a man, where like

1714
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:38,760
Speaker 2: a woman will maybe be about to kill someone, but

1715
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 2: then she won't because like that person appeals to her

1716
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:46,679
Speaker 2: emotions and she feels bad and so she shows mercy.

1717
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:52,880
Speaker 2: But the agogie are like brutally killing people, and the

1718
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:56,040
Speaker 2: movie is not shy about the violence and the blood

1719
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:59,800
Speaker 2: and then they are you know, people's like personal mile

1720
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 2: will vary about like how how graphic they want, you know,

1721
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,639
Speaker 2: battle scenes to be, but in real life a battle

1722
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,240
Speaker 2: like this would be very brutal and bloody. And I

1723
01:45:10,240 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 2: appreciated that the movie was not afraid to show the

1724
01:45:13,280 --> 01:45:18,320
Speaker 2: women warriors being brutal the way that male warriors in

1725
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:20,400
Speaker 2: movies get to be brutal.

1726
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:22,840
Speaker 3: All the time. Yeah, it was not toned down, not

1727
01:45:22,880 --> 01:45:24,240
Speaker 3: to be more, not at all.

1728
01:45:24,360 --> 01:45:27,679
Speaker 4: That scene where you get used to her fingers.

1729
01:45:27,040 --> 01:45:33,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, someone's eyes out guard. That was I remember

1730
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:35,760
Speaker 3: the first time I saw the trailer, everyone was like,

1731
01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:39,880
Speaker 3: oh my god, like yeah, that felt I wonder, I

1732
01:45:39,960 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 3: wonder if that was a historic I didn't look up

1733
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:45,120
Speaker 3: the historical accuracy of fighting or how much there's even

1734
01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:49,840
Speaker 3: available about their methods of fighting. But in like the

1735
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:52,600
Speaker 3: Hollywood movie sense, it kind of felt like the Ponytail

1736
01:45:52,640 --> 01:45:55,200
Speaker 3: moment and Birds of Prey, where like it's this traditionally

1737
01:45:55,240 --> 01:46:01,439
Speaker 3: feminine thing, having long nails used to fucking destroy someone. Yeah,

1738
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:04,759
Speaker 3: it's pretty cool. I like, I'm like, I'm a sucker,

1739
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:07,080
Speaker 3: but I like those moments. I thought that was awesome.

1740
01:46:08,360 --> 01:46:11,360
Speaker 2: Does anyone else have anything they want to talk about?

1741
01:46:13,040 --> 01:46:15,599
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think I covered most of the things I had.

1742
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:16,439
Speaker 2: Cool.

1743
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:20,400
Speaker 4: I can't believe two hours is gone, but I like.

1744
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:21,840
Speaker 3: I don't have an hour. I was like, oh, you'll

1745
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:22,680
Speaker 3: be surprised.

1746
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:29,519
Speaker 2: Well, does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

1747
01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:36,719
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, a lot, exclusively, or well more often than not, more.

1748
01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:39,200
Speaker 2: Often than it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, between a lot of

1749
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:45,080
Speaker 2: different combinations of characters. As far as our nipple scale,

1750
01:46:45,160 --> 01:46:48,759
Speaker 2: the perfect the one trick where we rate the movie

1751
01:46:49,520 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 2: on a scale of zero to five nipples based on

1752
01:46:54,160 --> 01:47:00,240
Speaker 2: examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I will

1753
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:05,840
Speaker 2: give this four maybe like four point two five nipples.

1754
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:08,519
Speaker 2: Just a couple of things we talked about as far

1755
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:11,519
Speaker 2: as like and Ronk at your point about if this

1756
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:15,920
Speaker 2: movie had been written by a black woman, that they

1757
01:47:15,920 --> 01:47:21,320
Speaker 2: probably would have framed the like European slavers as the

1758
01:47:21,439 --> 01:47:27,799
Speaker 2: primary villains and not another African person. Because mister Evil

1759
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,240
Speaker 2: is the like o Yo General and he's like the

1760
01:47:31,280 --> 01:47:33,720
Speaker 2: main villain of the movie. But there's a lot to

1761
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:39,719
Speaker 2: love about this movie, the dismantling of that strong black

1762
01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:42,680
Speaker 2: woman trope of you know, always having to be like

1763
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:48,519
Speaker 2: unrealistically strong and resilient when that expectation is so unfair

1764
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 2: for black women. The movie deals with serious and painful

1765
01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:57,680
Speaker 2: subject matter. I mean, it's covering things like slavery and

1766
01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:02,040
Speaker 2: human trafficking and war, and but the movie also takes

1767
01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:07,479
Speaker 2: time to show black joy, largely through the relationships between women.

1768
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 2: It strikes a really nice balance of the heavier and

1769
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:16,400
Speaker 2: more painful topics but also showing a lot of black

1770
01:48:16,479 --> 01:48:17,439
Speaker 2: joy in black love.

1771
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that just showing the full spectrum of humanity,

1772
01:48:22,479 --> 01:48:24,680
Speaker 3: like tragedy.

1773
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:31,120
Speaker 2: Right, So I appreciated that. You know, there are some

1774
01:48:31,360 --> 01:48:37,559
Speaker 2: historical inaccuracies, and I remember the conversation like when the

1775
01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:40,479
Speaker 2: movie was released in theaters, there's kind of like a

1776
01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:44,240
Speaker 2: push to ban the movie and like not go seek,

1777
01:48:44,280 --> 01:48:48,360
Speaker 2: which is ridiculous. People's reasoning was like, well, the nation

1778
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,880
Speaker 2: featured in the movie was they were active participants in

1779
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:57,799
Speaker 2: the slave trade. And while that is true, the movie

1780
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:02,800
Speaker 2: takes some historical liberties to show different characters fighting against that,

1781
01:49:03,120 --> 01:49:07,560
Speaker 2: and yes, that wasn't historically accurate. I don't know. It's complicated,

1782
01:49:07,560 --> 01:49:09,280
Speaker 2: and I don't know. I mean, I don't think it

1783
01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:10,639
Speaker 2: where to land on it.

1784
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:13,760
Speaker 3: I don't think that tanking the movie's success is going

1785
01:49:13,800 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 3: to unfortunately, because it always feels like, especially movies made

1786
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:24,360
Speaker 3: by marginalized creators, that like it's mister fucking mister Hollywood,

1787
01:49:24,400 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 3: a person who exists, but like that system is always

1788
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:30,920
Speaker 3: looking for an example to point to, to be like, see,

1789
01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:33,479
Speaker 3: people don't want to see women leading a movie. People

1790
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:36,200
Speaker 3: don't want to see an all black or a majority

1791
01:49:36,240 --> 01:49:40,679
Speaker 3: black cast in a movie. And yeah, I understand why

1792
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 3: people would be upset about the historical inaccuracies. I think

1793
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:47,640
Speaker 3: that's very valid, But I don't think that the appropriate

1794
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:52,479
Speaker 3: response is to be like, let's tank this movie, like yeah, I.

1795
01:49:52,439 --> 01:49:55,160
Speaker 2: Don't know, Yeah it's tricky, but yeah, there's a lot

1796
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:59,440
Speaker 2: to love about this movie. The focus on the female relationships,

1797
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:04,400
Speaker 2: the focus on the female warriors, because historical action epics

1798
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:07,599
Speaker 2: like this are never about women, and especially never about

1799
01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:11,080
Speaker 2: black women, and again, to represent them as having a

1800
01:50:11,360 --> 01:50:15,360
Speaker 2: range of personalities and emotions and to get to see

1801
01:50:15,439 --> 01:50:20,480
Speaker 2: their physical strength and combat skills and see them kicking

1802
01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 2: ass to go back to kick ass as a frame, Yeah,

1803
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:29,200
Speaker 2: we're living in the past. I like that you see

1804
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:34,040
Speaker 2: a woman Naniska be recognized for her contributions and skills

1805
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:38,559
Speaker 2: and leadership and be elevated to this powerful position of

1806
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:42,679
Speaker 2: woman king. I like that you see another woman, Nawi

1807
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:48,120
Speaker 2: be rebellious and challenge the status quo and the patriarchal

1808
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:52,160
Speaker 2: sexist double standards they have to live by. Just a

1809
01:50:52,160 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 2: lot of cool stuff happening. So I will give the

1810
01:50:56,320 --> 01:51:01,640
Speaker 2: movie four and a quarter nip. I'll give one to

1811
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:05,519
Speaker 2: Villa Davis. I'll give one to the director, Gina Prince Bythewood,

1812
01:51:06,479 --> 01:51:11,679
Speaker 2: I'll give one to Lashawna Lynch who plays Isogi, and

1813
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:18,160
Speaker 2: I'll give one to Tusso, who plays not We. I

1814
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:20,720
Speaker 2: really loved all of those performances.

1815
01:51:21,040 --> 01:51:24,400
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go. I guess I'm gonna go for I

1816
01:51:24,479 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 3: will be honest. The historical stuff does bug me a

1817
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:31,400
Speaker 3: little bit, especially after reading a little bit about the

1818
01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:37,080
Speaker 3: Lupida Yango short doc in which you know, the descendants

1819
01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:40,479
Speaker 3: of people who had been victimized were not okay with it,

1820
01:51:40,520 --> 01:51:45,200
Speaker 3: And I think that those opinions should carry and matter,

1821
01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:49,719
Speaker 3: and again it's it's I don't know this. This genre

1822
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:52,400
Speaker 3: is never gonna be a historically pure genre. Like I

1823
01:51:52,439 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 3: can't think of a historical epic that is famous for

1824
01:51:56,400 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 3: being accurate. They're mostly famous for being epic and often

1825
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:03,759
Speaker 3: famous for glorifying people who were not that great. And

1826
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:07,439
Speaker 3: I think that this movie does a lot to avoid

1827
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:11,520
Speaker 3: the trappings of the historical epic. But I also attributing

1828
01:52:11,640 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 3: a totally an almost completely one eighty political philosophy to

1829
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:18,560
Speaker 3: a person that actually existed, it does bug me a

1830
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:22,120
Speaker 3: little bit. I'm also a history head. I don't know, however,

1831
01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,599
Speaker 3: to echo everything you just said, Kaitlyn. I mean, it's

1832
01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:27,960
Speaker 3: a fucking good movie, and I and I it's you know,

1833
01:52:28,120 --> 01:52:32,799
Speaker 3: centering majority black woman cast. I feel like you often

1834
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:36,439
Speaker 3: hear when movies are centered around black women that there's

1835
01:52:36,479 --> 01:52:39,800
Speaker 3: often colorism involved. That doesn't seem to have been the case. Here.

1836
01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:44,240
Speaker 3: We get to see them fight and you know, be

1837
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:47,000
Speaker 3: brutal and ruthless, and we also good at poor people,

1838
01:52:47,800 --> 01:52:49,640
Speaker 3: be good at war, which is what they should have

1839
01:52:49,760 --> 01:52:56,479
Speaker 3: called it, the good at war. Uh women, Yeah, but

1840
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 3: you also get to see their humanity, you get to

1841
01:52:58,520 --> 01:53:01,640
Speaker 3: see their different personalities, their different relationships, they're conflicts with

1842
01:53:01,680 --> 01:53:04,320
Speaker 3: each other, get you get it all in a way

1843
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:07,760
Speaker 3: that is very very very unusual. And I think that

1844
01:53:07,880 --> 01:53:11,360
Speaker 3: this movie is just like good and also the fact

1845
01:53:11,360 --> 01:53:16,559
Speaker 3: that it was successful means that hopefully we can see

1846
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:21,200
Speaker 3: more African historical epics that come out in Hollywood and

1847
01:53:21,439 --> 01:53:25,120
Speaker 3: maybe there you know, again we're always talking about on

1848
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:28,960
Speaker 3: the show, like how progress is incremental. It was our idea.

1849
01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:30,320
Speaker 3: We were the first people.

1850
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:32,360
Speaker 2: To say this correct, yes that's true, but.

1851
01:53:32,280 --> 01:53:34,519
Speaker 3: That the success of The Woman King can lead to

1852
01:53:34,640 --> 01:53:40,840
Speaker 3: an even better, possibly more historically accurate African epic. I

1853
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:44,479
Speaker 3: like those odds. I feel good about it, and it's

1854
01:53:44,560 --> 01:53:48,080
Speaker 3: just yeah, really beautiful, well performed movie, and it shouldn't

1855
01:53:48,080 --> 01:53:52,800
Speaker 3: have been snubbed in the way it was across and

1856
01:53:52,880 --> 01:53:56,320
Speaker 3: I feel like, well, you know, there has been incremental

1857
01:53:56,360 --> 01:54:00,919
Speaker 3: progress in those systems. And also, oh my gosh, Danielle

1858
01:54:00,960 --> 01:54:04,920
Speaker 3: Deadweiler is that her name? Who was until that movie

1859
01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:09,160
Speaker 3: also got massively snubbed. And I'm glad that Gina Prince

1860
01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:12,800
Speaker 3: Bythewood is always, always always using her not that she

1861
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:15,640
Speaker 3: should have to, but she's always using her platform to

1862
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:20,200
Speaker 3: bring attention to how disrespected black women still are in

1863
01:54:20,400 --> 01:54:23,680
Speaker 3: entertainment and in general today. So I'm going to go

1864
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:27,640
Speaker 3: for nipples, I guess. I'm going to give one to

1865
01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,599
Speaker 3: Gina Prince Bythewood. I'm going to give one to Lashana

1866
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:34,720
Speaker 3: Lynch because she's my fave. I love her. I'm going

1867
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:37,160
Speaker 3: to give one to Viola Davis, and I'm going to

1868
01:54:37,240 --> 01:54:41,240
Speaker 3: give one to Lupita Nango because I'm intrigued and I

1869
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:46,200
Speaker 3: hope she talks about this someday. Yeah, Ronka, how about you.

1870
01:54:46,520 --> 01:54:48,400
Speaker 4: First again allowed to take Nichols to the men.

1871
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 2: You can do whatever you want, you do whatever.

1872
01:54:53,160 --> 01:54:59,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that's just by the way. I mean, I

1873
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:02,320
Speaker 4: share the re as from both of you. I really

1874
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:04,600
Speaker 4: enjoyed the movie, so I will give it a maybe

1875
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:09,400
Speaker 4: four point five because I'm really nice and taking away

1876
01:55:09,400 --> 01:55:12,680
Speaker 4: the point five for that history reason. I feel like

1877
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:16,280
Speaker 4: it's a movie to enjoy and watch. But then there's

1878
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:19,960
Speaker 4: also the risk that it perpetuates the wrong story of history.

1879
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:24,640
Speaker 4: So you know, while the writers can give the excuse

1880
01:55:24,680 --> 01:55:27,360
Speaker 4: and this is just a movie and it's fictionalizes and.

1881
01:55:27,400 --> 01:55:29,680
Speaker 5: YadA YadA, I mean the people like us.

1882
01:55:29,600 --> 01:55:31,280
Speaker 4: That they didn't study these things in school.

1883
01:55:31,320 --> 01:55:32,360
Speaker 5: This is the way we learn it.

1884
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 4: And if people don't go the extra mile of going

1885
01:55:34,800 --> 01:55:36,920
Speaker 4: to find the actual history, this is all the history

1886
01:55:36,960 --> 01:55:39,520
Speaker 4: they know. And of course you know there are people

1887
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:42,520
Speaker 4: who are actual victims of some of the work that

1888
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:46,520
Speaker 4: the ago Ja women did and the Dahomi community and

1889
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:50,520
Speaker 4: the old or your empire, and them having to watch this,

1890
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:55,560
Speaker 4: like Coupeter mentioned in her interview and maybe documentary, them

1891
01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:58,800
Speaker 4: having to watch this and see that their rules out

1892
01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:02,000
Speaker 4: as victims have acted, they've been erased. I think is

1893
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 4: really is really unfair, because this is a movie, at

1894
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:09,680
Speaker 4: least a PostScript or something at the end to say

1895
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:12,520
Speaker 4: this is really fictionalized, we've done this, we've done that,

1896
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:16,040
Speaker 4: or we pay respect to the men and women who

1897
01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:18,000
Speaker 4: died as a result of the slave trader, whose lives

1898
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 4: were changed as a result of the slave trader. I

1899
01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:21,840
Speaker 4: think the movie should have done that at the end

1900
01:56:21,840 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 4: of it. I really love the culture, like I said

1901
01:56:24,240 --> 01:56:27,760
Speaker 4: earlier on, and I want to emphasize about the black women,

1902
01:56:27,960 --> 01:56:33,000
Speaker 4: like it is so powerful to see dark skin black women.

1903
01:56:33,320 --> 01:56:36,880
Speaker 4: And I mean, we could take this for granted in

1904
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:38,880
Speaker 4: some ways, but in other ways it is this is

1905
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 4: not something you normally see in Hollywood. Most times when

1906
01:56:43,120 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 4: black women are featured in Hollywood. It's played by black

1907
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:50,160
Speaker 4: women who have maybe a white father or a white mother,

1908
01:56:50,280 --> 01:56:53,160
Speaker 4: and so you know, they're lighter skin and by no

1909
01:56:53,240 --> 01:56:56,360
Speaker 4: faults of years, I think they're really beautiful. But the

1910
01:56:56,520 --> 01:57:00,360
Speaker 4: narrative that dark skinned black women are not beautiful needs

1911
01:57:00,400 --> 01:57:03,480
Speaker 4: to be changed. I think this movie has contributed to change.

1912
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:04,040
Speaker 5: In that narrative.

1913
01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 4: I mean, despite how powerful and strong they looked, the

1914
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:12,240
Speaker 4: Agoja women came off as extremely beautiful to me. So

1915
01:57:12,800 --> 01:57:15,959
Speaker 4: I really loved the movie for that. I love the goddness,

1916
01:57:17,080 --> 01:57:19,920
Speaker 4: not because I enjoy seeing God, but you know, that

1917
01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:23,080
Speaker 4: confidence and power that the women were allowed to show

1918
01:57:24,320 --> 01:57:27,720
Speaker 4: was really great. The rebellion of now We Again, you know,

1919
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:32,200
Speaker 4: thumbs up for writing that in because and it wasn't

1920
01:57:32,240 --> 01:57:35,640
Speaker 4: just about dating or being with maleig or flatting with men.

1921
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:40,800
Speaker 4: It was also about challenging Naniska and standing up to

1922
01:57:40,880 --> 01:57:42,280
Speaker 4: her in different ways.

1923
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:43,920
Speaker 5: So I really really loved that.

1924
01:57:45,840 --> 01:57:51,680
Speaker 4: In the sense of fiction, I loved King Getsu and

1925
01:57:51,760 --> 01:57:54,520
Speaker 4: I loved him because you could see that he was

1926
01:57:54,600 --> 01:57:59,000
Speaker 4: listening to Naniska. He respected her in places where you know,

1927
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:01,680
Speaker 4: in the King's Coming, where the other men, the other

1928
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:05,960
Speaker 4: the head of the male warriors would try to undermine Naniska.

1929
01:58:06,040 --> 01:58:08,480
Speaker 4: You could see him, you know, speaking up for her

1930
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:12,880
Speaker 4: in some cases and actually taking her advice. So it

1931
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:16,720
Speaker 4: was really good to see that happen. I think that's fiction.

1932
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, he went to those palm oil fields. He's like that,

1933
01:58:22,720 --> 01:58:23,760
Speaker 2: I guess, exactly.

1934
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,080
Speaker 4: Exactly, so he was actually listening to her, which is

1935
01:58:27,120 --> 01:58:31,920
Speaker 4: quite unusual. So yeah, by four point five.

1936
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:34,560
Speaker 5: Can I give to Nippos to Viola Davis?

1937
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:41,880
Speaker 4: Oh my god, oh gosh. She is such a powerful, strong, confident,

1938
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:45,320
Speaker 4: beautiful woman. And I'm probably a bit biased because I

1939
01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:48,520
Speaker 4: watched Woman King and then I read her book Finding Me.

1940
01:58:49,120 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 4: I think that's the title, And I just feel like

1941
01:58:52,040 --> 01:58:54,840
Speaker 4: I found another side of Viola that I can't let

1942
01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:59,560
Speaker 4: go off so too because to her, of course it's okay.

1943
01:58:59,760 --> 01:59:03,120
Speaker 4: She he was really the big sister, but also more

1944
01:59:03,160 --> 01:59:08,520
Speaker 4: experienced soldier, powerful soldier, confident, but also empathetic, you know,

1945
01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:11,120
Speaker 4: going back to get Nawi at the end and then

1946
01:59:11,160 --> 01:59:15,040
Speaker 4: getting shot at that point. Of course. Now, I really

1947
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:19,800
Speaker 4: really loved Nawi young confidence, the scene where she pushed

1948
01:59:19,880 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 4: the man who hit her, the one who was trying

1949
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:25,600
Speaker 4: to get married to her, right in front of her parents.

1950
01:59:25,920 --> 01:59:27,840
Speaker 4: This is twenty twenty three, and I think they'll be

1951
01:59:28,000 --> 01:59:31,640
Speaker 4: a handful of African women or African girls who can

1952
01:59:31,680 --> 01:59:34,000
Speaker 4: actually fight an elderly person.

1953
01:59:33,880 --> 01:59:35,040
Speaker 5: In front of their parents.

1954
01:59:35,080 --> 01:59:38,000
Speaker 4: So her doing that in the eighteen hundred, big ups

1955
01:59:38,000 --> 01:59:42,839
Speaker 4: to her rebellion. The point five is the King Gizer

1956
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:48,080
Speaker 4: because I really like John Boyega. He's of Nigerian origin,

1957
01:59:48,160 --> 01:59:50,520
Speaker 4: so that was really good to see. And I think

1958
01:59:50,560 --> 01:59:53,760
Speaker 4: he put in so much effort in trying to do

1959
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:58,960
Speaker 4: the right accent. And people have criticized him for this accent,

1960
01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:01,440
Speaker 4: but I think that was a it's not easy to

1961
02:00:02,640 --> 02:00:04,320
Speaker 4: I don't know where that accent is from. I don't

1962
02:00:04,360 --> 02:00:07,280
Speaker 4: think it's not it's definitely not Nigerian. I don't know

1963
02:00:07,320 --> 02:00:11,360
Speaker 4: if it's Beny Noir from New Day or Today's Dajome,

1964
02:00:12,080 --> 02:00:14,800
Speaker 4: But anyway, I think he did make an effort in

1965
02:00:15,200 --> 02:00:17,800
Speaker 4: speaking the right accent, but also because he supported Naniska

1966
02:00:18,280 --> 02:00:20,640
Speaker 4: through it. So four point five, I think is.

1967
02:00:20,560 --> 02:00:22,040
Speaker 3: What I give very nice.

1968
02:00:22,120 --> 02:00:24,400
Speaker 2: I think I forgot to give my quarter nipple away,

1969
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:26,720
Speaker 2: so I'm going to give it to mister Purple.

1970
02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:28,760
Speaker 3: Mister Purse.

1971
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:30,320
Speaker 4: I can't forget mister Pople.

1972
02:00:31,880 --> 02:00:34,360
Speaker 3: Give us a Netflix series with mister purple.

1973
02:00:34,640 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 2: Was he implied to be a eunuch because there's a

1974
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:40,400
Speaker 2: reference to men being some of the men in the

1975
02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:45,240
Speaker 2: palace being eunis. And I'm honestly maybe filling in a

1976
02:00:45,280 --> 02:00:47,760
Speaker 2: lot of blanks myself, but I was like, I wonder

1977
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 2: if he's supposed to be a eunuch. I'm not sure. Anyway,

1978
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:52,480
Speaker 2: I love him no matter what.

1979
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:53,040
Speaker 3: That's the best.

1980
02:00:53,280 --> 02:00:55,360
Speaker 2: Well, Frankie, thank you so much for joining us.

1981
02:00:55,600 --> 02:00:57,000
Speaker 3: What a treat this has been.

1982
02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:02,480
Speaker 2: Everyone read Ronky's piece about this movie and we'll link it,

1983
02:01:02,520 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 2: of course, along with the other things we'd mentioned. We

1984
02:01:05,840 --> 02:01:11,280
Speaker 2: link where can people follow you online and check out

1985
02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:13,520
Speaker 2: anything else you want them to check out?

1986
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:18,000
Speaker 4: On Twitter at all your own care underscore and I

1987
02:01:18,000 --> 02:01:21,400
Speaker 4: think you'll link it right, Yes, but yeah, I think

1988
02:01:21,440 --> 02:01:24,800
Speaker 4: Twitter is the best place to find me crawling and

1989
02:01:24,880 --> 02:01:26,960
Speaker 4: being quiet and tweeting about the books I need.

1990
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:32,120
Speaker 3: I love it. Yes, the best use of the internet possible, exactly.

1991
02:01:33,680 --> 02:01:36,360
Speaker 3: You can find us all the regular places on Instagram

1992
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:39,680
Speaker 3: and Twitter. At Bechdel Cast. You can join our patreon

1993
02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:44,120
Speaker 3: akamatreon at patreon dot com slash bectyl Cast, where for

1994
02:01:44,200 --> 02:01:47,640
Speaker 3: five bucks a month you get two additional episodes every

1995
02:01:47,680 --> 02:01:50,879
Speaker 3: single month. How about that this month we're.

1996
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:54,240
Speaker 2: Doing dolls coming all life.

1997
02:01:54,440 --> 02:01:58,520
Speaker 3: We're doing life size, and we're doing Megan, So really

1998
02:01:58,640 --> 02:02:00,720
Speaker 3: all killer, no filler on the major around this month.

1999
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:05,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can check out our merch at teapublic

2000
02:02:05,920 --> 02:02:09,800
Speaker 2: dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, where you can find

2001
02:02:09,880 --> 02:02:15,440
Speaker 2: all of your merchandising needs, all designed by one Jamie Loftus.

2002
02:02:15,960 --> 02:02:23,200
Speaker 3: Wowoo, good for her. And with that, let's go. I mean,

2003
02:02:23,320 --> 02:02:25,120
Speaker 3: if we want to have a light afternoon, you know,

2004
02:02:25,400 --> 02:02:29,200
Speaker 3: just like tear shark teeth out of each other's shoulders.

2005
02:02:29,280 --> 02:02:33,000
Speaker 2: That let's do that. Yes, okay, bye bye