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Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Clair, and this.

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Speaker 2: Is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural

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Speaker 2: fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into

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Speaker 2: one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are

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Speaker 2: talking about the institution that has, for the last sixty

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Speaker 2: years been a beacon of American excellence in the performing

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Speaker 2: arts and more recently, the site of some very bizarre

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Speaker 2: MAGA related political scandals, The Kennedy Center.

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Speaker 1: The John F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts was a bipartisan project

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Speaker 3: for the advancement of the performing arts, conceptualized during the

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Speaker 3: Eisenhower administration and built during the Kennedy administration thanks to

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Speaker 3: a thirty million dollar fundraising initiative launched in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 3: two by President Kennedy and the First Lady.

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Speaker 2: So Broadway super producer Roger L. Stevens, known for hits

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Speaker 2: like West Side Story and Cat On a Hot Tin Roof,

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Speaker 2: was the founding chairman of the center's Board of trustees,

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Speaker 2: and First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy was the center's honorary chairman,

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Speaker 2: and former First Lady Nami Eisenhower was co chair.

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Speaker 3: When JFK was assassinated. In nineteen sixty four, the new President,

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Speaker 3: Lyndon Johnson, signed a congressional law establishing the Center as

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Speaker 3: not only the US National Culture Center, but also a

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Speaker 3: living memorial to President Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: And the Center has been an American cultural stalwart ever since.

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Speaker 2: It hosts nearly every genre of performance art, from ballet

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Speaker 2: in the National Symphony Orchestra to pop and rock concerts

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Speaker 2: from contemporary artists. It's also known for the annual Kennedy

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Speaker 2: Center Honors Gala, which celebrates five people each year for

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Speaker 2: their lifetime contributions to the arts.

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Speaker 3: But over the last year, the Kennedy Center has been

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Speaker 3: in the news for a different reason. In twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: President Trump dismissed the center's entire board of trustee, appointed

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Speaker 3: new members who elected him chairman, and changed the center's

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Speaker 3: name to the Trump Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts WOOLF.

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Speaker 2: Which he's technically not allowed to do, but we will

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Speaker 2: get into that in a bit. The first Kennedy Center

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Speaker 2: Honors gala after these changes was hosted by Trump himself.

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Speaker 2: He took on MC duties for the night and honored

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Speaker 2: some of his personal favorite artists including Sylvester Stallone, the

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Speaker 2: Band Kiss, Gloria Gaynor, George Strait, and Michael Crawford, who

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Speaker 2: originated the titular role in the Phantom of the Opera,

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Speaker 2: one of Trump's favorite Broadway shows.

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Speaker 3: Ever since Trump took over, the Center has been embroiled

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Speaker 3: in near constant scandals, including canceled performances, low ticket sales,

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Speaker 3: accusations of mismanagement, and, of course, in classic Trump fashion,

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Speaker 3: misleading and false statements about those very scandals from the

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Speaker 3: people in charge.

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Speaker 2: The latest news as of last month, is that the

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Speaker 2: Center will be closing for two years for renovations beginning

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Speaker 2: this So to unpack all of this, we are joined

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Speaker 2: by New Yorker writer Katie Waldman, who has been covering

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Speaker 2: Trump's takeover of the Kennedy Center for the last year

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Speaker 2: and who actually attended the last Kennedy Center Honors gala

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Speaker 2: and has lived to tell the tale. Katie, Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Of course, so we have a lot to talk about

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Speaker 2: on this episode. In fact, there's constantly news about the

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Speaker 2: Trump takeover of the Kennedy Center. I just saw that

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Speaker 2: last month it was announced that it was going to

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Speaker 2: be closing starting in July for two years for renovations.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a story that keeps developing like very

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Speaker 5: very quickly. So I think the current status is, yeah,

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Speaker 5: they're going to close it this summer and then maybe

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Speaker 5: open it two years later.

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Speaker 4: But we shall see.

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Speaker 2: Got it just in time. Our producer was saying, just

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Speaker 2: in time for his third term, So yeah, we look

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Speaker 2: forward to that. Before we get into the current developing stuff,

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Speaker 2: can you give us sort of a sense of the

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Speaker 2: Kennedy Center's place as a culture institution, let's say, before

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Speaker 2: the last year and a half.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I mean the Kennedy Center was founded, or

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Speaker 5: the idea for the Kennedy Centers sort of began during

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Speaker 5: the Eisenhower era. It was the country was coming out

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Speaker 5: of the Second World War, and it was kind of

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Speaker 5: the strategic motivation on one hand, you know, announce American

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Speaker 5: cultural dominance and power, but also a kind of more

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Speaker 5: soulful one that was, you know, telling the American people

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Speaker 5: and the world that there's more to life than war.

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Speaker 4: There's also art.

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Speaker 5: It was kind of uplifting or that was the idea,

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Speaker 5: and so Eisenhower was sort of working on this and

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Speaker 5: then when President Kennedy was assassinated. The plans that had

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Speaker 5: begun in the late fifties kind of melded with people's

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Speaker 5: desire to honor Kennedy, and that became the Kennedy Center,

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Speaker 5: which I started think of it of as like a

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Speaker 5: holy trinity of like a performing arts venue and a

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Speaker 5: cultural center and what people call a living memorial to Kennedy.

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Speaker 5: And sorry, just to answer your question about what it's

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Speaker 5: been like before the Trump takeover, I think a lot

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Speaker 5: of people who grew up in DC, and I am

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Speaker 5: among these people, have a lot of fondness for it.

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Speaker 5: Like it's a little bit dodgy, it's a little bit

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Speaker 5: middle of the road. The seats are like, you know,

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Speaker 5: have been upholstered decades ago or whatever, which I think

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Speaker 5: Trump really dislikes. But they have wonderful, family friendly offerings.

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Speaker 5: They have some more experimental stuff, and it is like

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Speaker 5: a national landmark and something that's been around for a

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Speaker 5: long time and a sort of wonderful reminder that at

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Speaker 5: its best, this country cares a lot about independent art.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you just mentioned that you grew up in DC,

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Speaker 3: and so it's like you have a personal relationship with

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Speaker 3: the Kennedy Center. As someone who grew up in the city,

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Speaker 3: what was that relationship that you had with the center?

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Speaker 5: Like, yeah, I mean so as a kid, first of all,

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Speaker 5: we would do like field trips to the Kennedy Center.

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Speaker 5: So I remember, like we saw do you remember Sweet

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Speaker 5: Honey in the Rock? It was like a spiritual group.

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Speaker 5: We were totally mesmerized. I remember my entire class just

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Speaker 5: loved it. And you know, there are always the kind

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Speaker 5: of long running shows sheer madness. I think there was

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Speaker 5: a Guys and Dolls production that we saw when we

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Speaker 5: were teenagers. And then sort of as I got older,

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Speaker 5: I rebelled and was like, ough, the Kennedy Center is

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Speaker 5: so mid Like I would never go to the Kennedy Center.

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Speaker 4: But they do they well right now, who knows.

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Speaker 5: But they had a program called Millennium Stage that like

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Speaker 5: every night there would be some sort of free or

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Speaker 5: really cheap performer, whether it was jazz or dance or

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Speaker 5: just like a local folk artist or something. And I think, like,

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Speaker 5: you know, twenty somethings would go on dates and stuff

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Speaker 5: to the Millennium Stage.

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Speaker 4: So I remember like spending some time there too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were Julia and I were talking before the

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Speaker 2: recording about how for people who maybe didn't grow up

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Speaker 2: around it, our main connection to it was the Kennedy

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Speaker 2: Center Honors galas, like the Kennedy Center Honors performances and everything.

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Speaker 2: And we were talking about our favorite like the ones

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Speaker 2: that have stuck with us, Julia, you were saying, the

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Speaker 2: Barbara streisand one is one that you returned to, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The barber streysand one where Adina Menzel does don't rain

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Speaker 3: on My Parade and she is clearly obsessed with Barbara

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Speaker 3: and Barbara does not seem to care about her, and

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Speaker 3: that's really fun to watch.

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Speaker 1: And then there's so many good ones.

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Speaker 3: Probably one of my all time favorites is the band

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Speaker 3: Heart honoring led Zeppl and doing this like really epic

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Speaker 3: version of Stairway to Heaven with like a full choir

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Speaker 3: and one of the members of led Zeppelin, his son

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Speaker 3: is playing the drums and like all of them are crying.

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Speaker 4: That's so sweet.

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Speaker 3: And then I mean, like one of the most I

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Speaker 3: feel like in from recent years, one of the most

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Speaker 3: famous moments was when they were honoring Carol King and

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Speaker 3: as a big surprise, obviously, like Carol King is a

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Speaker 3: prolific songwriter, and one of her most famous songs this

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Speaker 3: Natural Woman. And this big surprise was that Aretha Franklin

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Speaker 3: came out and the crowd went nuts, and she like

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Speaker 3: was wearing you know, her classic like floor length fur,

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Speaker 3: dropped it on the floor, sat down at the piano

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Speaker 3: and started playing Natural Woman, and Obama starts crying immediately.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just like, you.

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Speaker 3: Get so many like incredible moments like that that I

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Speaker 3: feel like you don't get anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's rare also for not to sound pretentious or something,

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Speaker 2: but it's rare for American culture, especially to have something

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Speaker 2: like that that honors artists in that way that isn't

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Speaker 2: you know, an award show or some kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: like a super Bowl halftime performance or something like that.

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Speaker 2: It felt it feels almost European or something. And I

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Speaker 2: mean one of the ones that I read to the

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Speaker 2: Barbara Cook one Glenn Close does Losing My Mind from Folly's,

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Speaker 2: which is sort of a fun performance. And part of

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Speaker 2: the appeal of all this is not just seeing the performances,

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Speaker 2: but seeing all the people reacting to the performances. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: a person being honored looks especially moved, or sometimes they

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Speaker 2: look honestly, like not that happy with how the the

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Speaker 2: rendition is going. Katie, do you have any that sort

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Speaker 2: of stick with you before we get to the sort

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Speaker 2: of depressing part of this interview?

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Speaker 5: So I have to say that did you watch the

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Speaker 5: Kennedy Center Honors like on TV like in the broadcast

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Speaker 5: later or would you go to.

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Speaker 2: The This is mostly on it for me, it's mostly

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Speaker 2: like YouTube over the years is just just finding them

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Speaker 2: money touched.

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Speaker 3: I watched them on TV with my parents when I

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Speaker 3: was younger, though.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we didn't watch them.

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Speaker 5: Maybe this is like strange DC taking things for granted privilege,

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Speaker 5: Like I didn't really follow the Honors gala, although it

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Speaker 5: would be sort of DC would be a buzz because

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Speaker 5: there would be a lot of like visiting dignitaries from

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Speaker 5: the arts community, not political dignitaries.

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Speaker 4: That's nothing to write home about in DC.

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Speaker 5: But I do think there's something in what you're saying about,

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Speaker 5: like the pressure being kind of off for some of

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Speaker 5: these people because they're not on Broadway, They're not in

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Speaker 5: the sort of like pinnacle of artistic achievement, like that

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Speaker 5: sort of high stakes, stressful contacts there in a place

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Speaker 5: that has been built in order to celebrate not just them,

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Speaker 5: but the arts in general and what the arts can

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Speaker 5: do for just like the or Narry American citizen, and

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Speaker 5: so it is this kind of like especially warm welcome

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Speaker 5: I think, and just you're right, the dynamic of sort

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Speaker 5: of different generations of artists paying homage to each other

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Speaker 5: is like really lovely to watch. I'm trying to think

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Speaker 5: of like some of the Honors performances.

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Speaker 4: I think I think there might have been a Bonnie Rate.

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Speaker 5: One that I saw a video of and she's always

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Speaker 5: so incredible.

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Speaker 1: I love her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love Bonnie.

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Speaker 3: Right. I think there's something too to what you're saying,

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Speaker 3: George about it's not like the Grammys or the Tony's

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Speaker 3: where the artists are honoring themselves, like the it's kind

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Speaker 3: of a melding of the state and the performing arts

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Speaker 3: that's really unique, Like we have so few examples of

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Speaker 3: that otherwise of like the federal government, Yeah, kind of

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Speaker 3: saying that signifying that the arts are important.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's very little public fund of the arts in America.

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Speaker 2: There's very if anything. Usually what you get in the

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Speaker 2: intersection of sort of pop culture and politics is maybe

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Speaker 2: a celebrity like stumping for a political candidate, or singing

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Speaker 2: the national anthem at an inauguration or something like that.

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Speaker 2: There is something unique about something like something like Kennedy

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Speaker 2: Center Honors.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after

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Speaker 3: this break, and we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: Katie, you attended the last Kennedy Center Honors, so that

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Speaker 2: might be kind of a nice entry point for this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Can you describe to us? I mean, you've written about it,

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Speaker 2: and you've talked about it elsewhere, but can you describe

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Speaker 2: to us what that experience was like?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 5: I mean, in some way it was pretty consistent with

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Speaker 5: what I would expect from any type of gala like this.

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Speaker 5: It was lots of fancy closes, there's a red carpet,

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Speaker 5: The decorations were all very lavish. I think this is

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Speaker 5: also a particularly Trumpian set of priorities. And I've heard

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Speaker 5: from people in the Kennedy Center that the sort of

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Speaker 5: step and repeat, the kind of paraphernalia around the performances

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Speaker 5: has become more and more important. But you know, I

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Speaker 5: think in some ways it was the Kennedy Center Honors

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Speaker 5: that we've come to expect like there was there were

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Speaker 5: lesser known artists who paid tribute to the honorees. There

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Speaker 5: was a host, in this case Trump himself. That is

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Speaker 5: a new development that has never happened before. But basically,

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Speaker 5: the evening was quite long. It was about three hours,

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Speaker 5: and Trump went through each of the five nominee and

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Speaker 5: said a little thing about why they were deserving of

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Speaker 5: this honor, and then there would be a set of

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Speaker 5: performances that were supposed to set off the career highlights

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Speaker 5: of the honorees. What made it strange, I think was

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Speaker 5: a combination of the vibe in the audience.

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Speaker 4: It was a very political crowd.

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Speaker 5: Like when I was sort of walking around eavesdropping, people

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Speaker 5: weren't talking about the performances, or about the honorees, or

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Speaker 5: really about art at all. They were talking about politics,

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Speaker 5: and they were talking about DC and in a somewhat

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Speaker 5: I mean, I'm just thinking of one conversation that I

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Speaker 5: overheard where a man had brought his young kid and

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Speaker 5: the kid was wondering whether he could have a sip

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Speaker 5: of champagne from the champagne table, and the father said, well,

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Speaker 5: if this was California and we were Democrats, then yes,

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Speaker 5: we'd let you, but anything doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Go here interesting. Well, it's funny because they are celebrating

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Speaker 2: like Gene Simmons, Like, it's not like they're celebrating Christian

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Speaker 2: Christian music that's family values focused.

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Speaker 4: Yeah to that comment.

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Speaker 5: The other big difference was the selection of honorees, which

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Speaker 5: you know is not a crazy group of people that stuck.

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Speaker 2: Out to me. Sorry to cut off that stuck out

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Speaker 2: to me because you, of course want to sort of

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Speaker 2: roll your eyes at the whole thing and be like,

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Speaker 2: I can't believe he chose X y Z. But they

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Speaker 2: are all people that you could imagine, if they had

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Speaker 2: slightly different political alignments, could have been chosen by another president.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it is like pop culture icons. It's not

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Speaker 2: like he awarded kid rock or something like. They are

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Speaker 2: people that quote unquote would deserve a Lifetime Achievement award

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Speaker 2: even you know, potentially under a different presidency. But go on, yeah, no, I.

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Speaker 5: Think that's totally true. And what was interesting about it.

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Speaker 5: First of all, I think that he probably considered this

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Speaker 5: very carefully and got a lot of advice about what

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Speaker 5: would make sense. But it did also seem to be

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Speaker 5: a compromise between sort of the reality for principle and

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Speaker 5: Trump's fantasy self. And I think I put something in

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Speaker 5: the piece about how each honorey sort of seemed to

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Speaker 5: represent a different fragment of his psyche, of his idylized psyche,

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Speaker 5: whether it's sort of like George Straight, the country singer

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Speaker 5: who takes no goff for.

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Speaker 4: Sylvester salone, even more.

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Speaker 2: So the perpetual underdog totally.

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Speaker 5: I will survive another professional underdog anthem, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: That was a really interesting way to frame it. And

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Speaker 2: it's everything with Trump, you know, sort of psychoanalytically, is

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Speaker 2: like it's always there's always some slightly buried element of

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Speaker 2: his psyche that that you know, is clear to anyone

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Speaker 2: with you know, sort of with eyes to see.

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Speaker 3: If you know. The answer to this, how are the

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Speaker 3: honorees usually chosen? It was my understanding that it was

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Speaker 3: not the president themselves who selects them, but who just

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Speaker 3: kind of signs off on them, rubber stamps them.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 5: So in the past there's been a committee, Yeah, And

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Speaker 5: I think that that committee is usually comprised of like

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Speaker 5: members of the board, who you know, in the past

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Speaker 5: have also been much more independent as opposed to kind

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Speaker 5: of a yes committee for the chairman, and then also

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Speaker 5: a lot of the programmers at the Kennedy Center who

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Speaker 5: have these deep and long standing relationships with artists are

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Speaker 5: able to weigh in. But yeah, so there's a committee

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Speaker 5: that is designed to pick the nominees or pick the honorees.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, this year they were hand picked by the president.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that does seem like a significant change, because it's

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's easy to sort of to be like, well,

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Speaker 2: always a divided country. Surely Republicans always picked conservative figures

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Speaker 2: and Democrats always picked but that's in fact not the case.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I remember I grew up under George W. Bush,

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Speaker 2: and it was always it was actually sort of like

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Speaker 2: a funny element of it that he would be kind

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Speaker 2: of honoring people that maybe had spoken out about him

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Speaker 2: in the past in their own life, and that is

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Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those moments where you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so we do live in a country that has both

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Speaker 2: freedom of speech and also separately respects the arts, and

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Speaker 2: separately there are moments where we could come together, like

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Speaker 2: you know, these sort of cliches that I don't know

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Speaker 2: that maybe don't exist anymore.

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Speaker 3: No, I think that's such a good point, George and

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Speaker 3: I always think of I mean, I think from our lifetime,

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Speaker 3: the most famous example of.

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Speaker 1: That is George W.

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Speaker 3: Bush presiding over the honoring of Barber streisand exactly.

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Speaker 2: You can't imagine that happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, I think he like announced the

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Speaker 3: honorees before the ceremony. It almost looked like a press conference.

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Speaker 3: I'm remembering this very shodily, but he gave like a

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Speaker 3: really lovely speech about her and also like made a

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Speaker 3: little joke about the things that she's said about him publicly.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think I remember something like I

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Speaker 3: also know a Barbara with a lot of opinions is yeah, right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's something it's like the White House Correspondence Center or

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Speaker 2: something which you know, you can have mixed feelings about

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Speaker 2: it in terms of ethics of access journalism and whatever else,

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Speaker 2: but it is just optics wise, a place where people

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Speaker 2: that otherwise hate each other and don't agree come together

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Speaker 2: under the same roof and you know, are able to

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Speaker 2: be cordial together in a room.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a good thing. I don't maybe I'm

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Speaker 3: like I'm and I don't want to sound like I'm

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Speaker 3: civility pilled or whatever, but I'm like you should, like

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Speaker 3: we should all be able to say one nice thing

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Speaker 3: about each other.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, and just the White House Correspondence Center has

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Speaker 5: not the Trump administration. And I think also just adding

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Speaker 5: some data points to to your earlier argument, there have

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Speaker 5: been Republican presidents. It wasn't Clint Eastwood honored under Clinton

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Speaker 5: or a different Democratic president. And then Robert Rudford was

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Speaker 5: honored under Bush or Nixon, a Republican president, So there

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Speaker 5: has Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It seems like like a soft power to it seems

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Speaker 2: like something that you do to show that you are,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of like open minded and big hearted.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like a way to kind of soft reach

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Speaker 2: across the aisle or something like, because you are ultimately

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Speaker 2: trying to you know, be popular among even people who

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Speaker 2: didn't vote for you. I mean it's a good thing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and even in a more Malcky Abelian or let's

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Speaker 5: just say, politically strategic sense, to indicate that you're not

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Speaker 5: threatened by like the slightest tremor of comence.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, okay, so the honoorary are certainly chosen

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Speaker 2: in a different way now, but more in terms of

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Speaker 2: the structure of the organization, can you describe kind of

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Speaker 2: like what the management and funding of it looked like

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Speaker 2: before all of this. I know that it is some

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Speaker 2: sort of public private partnership. There are kind of like

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Speaker 2: wealthy independent donors. How is it funded and how is

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Speaker 2: it run? In broad terms?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so earlier or let's say, during the tenure of

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Speaker 5: Deborah Rutter, who preceded Richard Grenell as president, I think

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Speaker 5: at twenty twenty twenty three, the budget was about two

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Speaker 5: hundred and eighty million dollars. About sixteen percent of that

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Speaker 5: came from Congress was appropriated money, and that money was

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Speaker 5: set aside specifically for building maintenance, so like the HVAC

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Speaker 5: system is broken, let's fix it, but could not be

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Speaker 5: spent on the actual performances, and so most of it,

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Speaker 5: most of what kept the Kennedy Center operating was ticket sales, donations,

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Speaker 5: and then sort of miscellaneous revenue from like the parking lot.

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Speaker 5: And it was kind of a it was a pretty

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Speaker 5: delicate balance, right, because you needed to have the programming

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Speaker 5: that brought in audiences, but you also needed to sort

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Speaker 5: of present a sense of mission that would make both

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Speaker 5: the big donors give large gifts and also attract sort

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Speaker 5: of the small recurring gifts that mean that the community

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Speaker 5: is strong. And so from a perspective of like what

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Speaker 5: the Kennedy Center does, I think those are the two

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Speaker 5: groups of people that sort of overlap but also both

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Speaker 5: need to be kept happy in different ways. And then

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Speaker 5: another group of people that is involved in this delicate

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Speaker 5: ecosystem is the administrative, the administrators themselves. So that's kind

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Speaker 5: of like the different populations that are all working together

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Speaker 5: to make sure the Kennedy Center is healthy. I feel

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Speaker 5: like your next question is going to be like.

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Speaker 2: What, how does that change? Correct?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So basically these different revenue streams have begun to

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Speaker 5: dry up because no one is happy. None of the

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Speaker 5: populations like what is going on? And I don't I

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Speaker 5: would say that's like an overstatement, but unfortunately I really

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Speaker 5: don't think it is. So you've surely seen reporting about

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Speaker 5: the ticket sales which are dismal. People are voting with

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Speaker 5: their feet, their boycotts.

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Speaker 3: I think even as recently as a few days ago,

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Speaker 3: there were a bunch more cancelations from artists themselves.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, oh, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 5: That's like a really good point that another population that

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Speaker 5: needs to be participating in this large collaboration is the

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Speaker 5: artists themselves. And yes, the artists don't want to be

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Speaker 5: associated with the center, many of them don't, so there

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Speaker 5: have been cancelations even when they decide to go forward

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Speaker 5: with the performance. The sort of best practices for this

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Speaker 5: type of venue is, if there aren't enough ticket sales,

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Speaker 5: you cancel the performance so as not to embarrass the talent.

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Speaker 4: So there have been a lot of instances like.

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Speaker 5: That where the talent will say, hmm, okay, I'll do it,

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Speaker 5: but how are we doing on numbers? And then the

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Speaker 5: programmers will say, actually, like don't bother So so performances

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Speaker 5: are down. And then in terms of donations, a lot

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Speaker 5: of people have canceled their subscriptions, and I think that

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Speaker 5: the sort of community based recurrent donation model has been

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Speaker 5: set aside. A lot of this has to do also

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Speaker 5: with the firing of a lot of the fundraising department.

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Speaker 5: The new hires who are now doing fundraising are much

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Speaker 5: more from political campaigns, and so they'll seek out like

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Speaker 5: a corporate or even a foreign country for like a

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Speaker 5: single big donation.

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Speaker 2: Well, the foreign country thing was something that I don't

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Speaker 2: think I knew until your piece on it. Can you

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Speaker 2: talk a little bit more about that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, sorry, I feel like I'm saying a lot

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Speaker 5: of unrelated things it wants to try to like answer

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Speaker 5: this question. But one thing that Ambassador Grannell, and I'm

439
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 5: using that title advisedly, not only because he really insists

440
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 5: on being called Ambassador Grannell even to his employees at

441
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 5: the Kennedy Center, but also because it matters. He came

442
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 5: up through the UN, He's had these sort of foreign

443
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 5: diplomatic posts before being tapped to run the Kennedy Center,

444
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 5: and he has really made a lot of use of

445
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 5: his connections as a diplomat as an ambassador to get

446
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 5: sponsorships from foreign countries for specific performances. So you know,

447
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 5: instead of just getting a lot of money that's not

448
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 5: earmarked for anything for the Center, which then decides it's

449
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 5: what programming to do, you'll reach out for to a

450
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 5: particular country for example, like the Hungarian embassy did something

451
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 5: with the Kennedy Center.

452
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: What a shock.

453
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, amazing.

454
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 3: And Richard Grenell, we should say, was worked for the

455
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 3: Hungarian government. That was like a big scandal that he

456
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: didn't declare his that he had been paid by them.

457
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 4: Yes, indeed exactly exactly.

458
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 5: So, so there will be like the Kennedy Center will

459
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 5: be in partnership with the Hungarian Embassy or some other

460
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 5: country to put on a specific performance, in this case,

461
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 5: a celebration of Hungarian culture and Christianity.

462
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: I guess that is It's funny. It sounds so sinister

463
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: because it is. But if you had if you had

464
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: told me, you know, they're partnering with the Italian Embassy

465
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: for a Sophia or n retrospective, I would obviously not

466
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 2: bat an eye like it's it's not inherently sinister that

467
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: that a cultural institution will be working with a quote

468
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: unquote a foreign country, but in this instance it seems

469
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: like explicitly political.

470
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: In this yeah, because obviously Victor Orbon is a dictator,

471
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 3: and because they're also celebrating Christianity, which is like not

472
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 3: something that the Kennedy Center would w whatever normally do.

473
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 5: Yes, And I think there's another piece to it too,

474
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 5: which is often the Kennedy Center as again this sort

475
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 5: of expression of the ideals of American culture would host

476
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 5: foreign born or like international or global performers as if

477
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 5: to say like, this too is American art. We are inclusive,

478
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 5: we're eclectic or diverse, blah blah blah. We care about

479
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 5: all these different traditions.

480
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 4: But there's a.

481
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 5: Difference between sort of we are welcoming other countries and

482
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 5: their artists to our stages, and like we the Kennedy

483
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 5: Center require foreign powers in order to operate because we

484
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 5: otherwise can't raise money. Like that's a very different message,

485
00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 5: you know.

486
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: Definitely, you speak a lot in your piece about the

487
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: kind of the way that the Trump administration came in

488
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: and cleaned house at the Kennedy Center and fired a

489
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 3: lot of the board members and trustees and anyone who

490
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 3: Trump said did not share our vision for a golden

491
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: age in arts and culture, which is very funny. But

492
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 3: you also said that all the new appointees don't know

493
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: basic arts administration terminology like capacity arena, show.

494
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: What a stage left mean, what is a back line?

495
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: Like even what an usher does?

496
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,959
Speaker 3: The took me out, Yeah, I mean this kind of

497
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: replacement of Arts administration people, like career arts administration people

498
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: with political appointees, I would imagine, is probably pretty unprecedented.

499
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 5: I think that's right, and it does sort of show

500
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 5: how the Kennedy Center is a microcosm for a lot

501
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 5: of other agencies and government that have just been sort

502
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 5: of staffed at the highest levels with loyalists as opposed

503
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 5: to people who really know what they're doing. I think

504
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: the defense that the Kennedy Center leadership would offer is, well,

505
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 5: you know, a CFO doesn't need to know what a

506
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 5: nusher is, but a programmer might, or like a kind

507
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 5: of programming might. And there is just sort of an

508
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 5: attitude of in curiosity which shading into laziness. It's like

509
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 5: you're at an arts organization, like perhaps do a little

510
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 5: bit of homework. And I think too the importing of

511
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 5: basic strategies from political campaigns into arts organizations that hasn't

512
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 5: worked well at all.

513
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's difficult to disentangle how much of the chaos

514
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: is because of political reasons and how much of it

515
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: is just incompetence and laziness. As you're saying, it's also

516
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: you know, people that are career arts administration workers, especially

517
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: the ones that aren't in super high positions. These positions

518
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: tend to not be super well paid. It is which

519
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: I don't think is a good thing for the record,

520
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: but it is something that you get into often because

521
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: you are passionate about the arts rather than for the

522
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: money or for the you know, prestige, And so I

523
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: can imagine that that has something to do with it

524
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: as well. If you are suddenly if you want to

525
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: work there because of your political beliefs rather than because

526
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: of your passion for the arts, it's not necessarily going

527
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: to translate to good programming, right.

528
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 5: Right, And this is actually it's a little bit of

529
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 5: the tangent that it's reminding me of one of the

530
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 5: miscalculations from the fundraising team, which is leadership thought. You know,

531
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 5: the Kennedy Center used to be kept a float by

532
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 5: Progressive of Democratic donors because it was too woke and

533
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 5: they did experimental stuff and there is a social impact

534
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 5: team and blah blah blah. But what has ended up

535
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 5: happening is the mismanagement of sort of beloved institutions like

536
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 5: the Washington National Opera, National Symphony Orchestra has alienated even

537
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 5: sort of lifelong Republicans. So people who say I would

538
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 5: otherwise support MAGA, but I really like opera, and because

539
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 5: you're trashing opera, I'm going to stop donating to the

540
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 5: Kennedy Center, even though it's run by Trump. You know,

541
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 5: so it's this sort of like prioritization of art politics

542
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 5: that he can't have anticipated.

543
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: I can also imagine that, you know, when I think

544
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: of the stereotype of kind of an older white conservative couple,

545
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: maybe one of the reasons they like the opera and

546
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: the symphony is because it's actually one of the few

547
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: kinds of art that they don't think of as political.

548
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: You know, they want to go there because they don't

549
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: want to deal with, you know, going to a concert

550
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: and having a rock star like have make a speech

551
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: about social justice or something like. You actually get to

552
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 2: go and pretend it's all an a political experience. So

553
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: it is such a funny, kind of unintended consequence that

554
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: he has alienated people that normally would be on a side. So, okay,

555
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: so we have like the entire board is replaced. Trump

556
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: is chairman.

557
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: He renamed it. We haven't really talked about the VI.

558
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: He renamed it, put his name on it.

559
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: Richard Grinnell is in charge, who's sort of this Trump loyalist.

560
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: A bunch of people who don't know what an usher is.

561
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: Are you know, booking are booking shows that then don't

562
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: sell tickets, and then artists are canceling. But then when

563
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: they don't cancel them, the performance gets canceled because people

564
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: are boycotting. It seems like complete chaos. However, I think

565
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: you write this in the piece that the one person

566
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: that does have a vision for it is Trump himself,

567
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: which is sort of like such a funny, almost tragic

568
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: part of this story. Trump himself, regardless of any of

569
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: his political opinions, genuinely does care about the performing arts

570
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: in his own way. He is a huge fan of Broadway.

571
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,239
Speaker 2: He is a huge fan of certain musicians. So to

572
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 2: your understanding, what is the vision that Trump has if

573
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: he were to really dedicate his time to do this,

574
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: what would it look like under his leadership?

575
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 5: This is such a good question, and I almost want

576
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 5: to turn it back to you guys, because I'm so

577
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 5: curious what you think. I think that like, I mean, yes,

578
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 5: he's a showman. We know that he loves Andrew Lloyd Webber.

579
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 5: We know that he likes spectacle sort of like performance

580
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 5: of power, like really monumental, magnificent aesthetics and some kind

581
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 5: of like sentimentality. I think like he really he likes

582
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 5: the sort of like tears are flowing memory and cats

583
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 5: type deal but we talked a little bit about psychoanalysis,

584
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 5: and I think his vision for the Kennedy Center is

585
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 5: sort of like a confected object for him, Like it's

586
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 5: like a mirror for him. It's him, but the art

587
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 5: version that sort of expresses the self that can be

588
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 5: expressed through art. So it's like expressing his power and

589
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 5: sort of his more inner qualities that only art can

590
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 5: get at. And I'm not really sure how to describe

591
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 5: what those are. But to sort of back up a

592
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 5: little bit, I think the vision in a Broadway would

593
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 5: be more populist, So it would be a mix of

594
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 5: the sort of culturally prestigious things that he maybe doesn't

595
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 5: care about but believes reflect well on him, so the

596
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 5: opera and the symphony, and then the kind of crowd

597
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 5: pleasing mass culture that you can kind of imagine seeing

598
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 5: that he wanted to honor kiss Or Michael Crawford and

599
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 5: Gloria Gaye, who again an incredible singer and an artist.

600
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 5: But okay, so this is where I ask you, guys,

601
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 5: what do you think his esthetic is?

602
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 4: His vision is?

603
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 2: I mean, we were saying this is not an original idea,

604
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: but he is just he is perpetually stuck in the

605
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: eighties in terms of his sensibility, and so I think

606
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: obviously kiss is a big part of that. Obviously he

607
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: loves disco. He loves disco, the Andeloya Weber stuff. I

608
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: think he is sort of torn between his actual tastes

609
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: and then his desire and his rewarding of loyalty because

610
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: I think oftentimes, I think sometimes there's an amazing overlap,

611
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: like with the what's his name who originated the Phantom?

612
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: Michael Crawford Michael Crawford. Think like, sometimes there's an amazing

613
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 2: overlap where it's like, Okay, this is his favorite musical

614
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: or you know, his second favorite after cats, you know,

615
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 2: and it just so happens that the man he wants

616
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: to honor also sports in. But sometimes, you know, I

617
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: don't think, for example, that Trump actually likes the music

618
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: of kid rock, But he of course is going to

619
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: reward someone in the entertainment industry who expresses loyalty to him.

620
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of the sort of tragedy

621
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 2: at the center of Trump's relationship with pop culture is

622
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: he is drawn to a world that doesn't love him back.

623
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's exactly right.

624
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: I think all things being equal, I think this is

625
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that he most wants to do

626
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: with his presidency is something like this. I think he

627
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 3: does not he like very much, does not enjoy much

628
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: about being president, right, which is evidenced by the fact

629
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: that all he does all day is like watch TV

630
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 3: and tweet or truth rather. And I think that this

631
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: is the kind of thing that he really loves. As

632
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: George said, he is both attracted to and repelled by

633
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 3: the performing arts and like Hollywood, and he wants so

634
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: badly to be accepted. He is like, he is so

635
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 3: frustrated that he is not accepted by Hollywood and the

636
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: entertainment industry. And I think in another life, he, you know,

637
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 3: should be hosting the Tonys.

638
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: And he did a great bit with Megan Mala.

639
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United.

640
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 3: States of Kennedy after this break, and.

641
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: We're back with more United States of Kennedy.

642
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: One of my favorite sort of what ifs with Donald

643
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: Trump is like, I do think he at some point

644
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: wanted to be a Broadway producer and it sort of

645
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 2: didn't work out. And this this Kennedy Center takeover is

646
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: a is such a funny is such a funny way

647
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: to basically achieve that in the most complicated way possible,

648
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: which is first the elected president, then make yourself the

649
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 2: head of the cultural institution that a president has a

650
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: relationship with, and then basically through that, become a producer.

651
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: It's like it's all been leading to this, It's all

652
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: been leading to him posting a show that honors Michael Crawford.

653
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: Like it's so his intentions are just so like naked

654
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: and clear.

655
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 5: I think that's right, And I think that it is

656
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 5: clear that in some ways he values culture much more

657
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 5: than he values politics in that like, yeah, with politics,

658
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 5: politics the domain is what people do. Culture is the

659
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 5: domain is who people are. And he is more interested

660
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 5: in controlling who we are than even than what we do.

661
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 5: And and by that I mean like he wants our

662
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 5: emotional commitment to him, not just us going through the

663
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 5: motions and doing what he wants. He wants people to

664
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 5: love him, and so I think he sees politics as

665
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 5: downstream from culture, and what he would love most of

666
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 5: all is for culture to be downstream from him.

667
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, Yeah, completely, I.

668
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: Think that's exactly right.

669
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 3: And I've been thinking a lot about his decision to

670
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 3: rename the Center after himself, The Trump Kennedy Center. If

671
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: you go on the website, it says it on the

672
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: website because the center was established by Congress. He actually

673
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 3: really can't do that. It has to be like Congress

674
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 3: who allows that. But I think to what you're saying,

675
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: he kind of knows that his presidency, even though it

676
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: feels permanent and endless, will.

677
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: Come and go.

678
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 3: And I think he wants some like lasting cultural power,

679
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: and I do think that this is the way that

680
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: he thinks he can do that. And I wonder if

681
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: you have a sense of whether or not that's like

682
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: part of his obsession with the Kennedy Center. It's, as

683
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: we're saying, it's like kind of a weird project to

684
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 3: take when you are like fighting multiple wars and yeah,

685
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: but he seems to be.

686
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: Really committed to it.

687
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: And I just I guess, like one of my questions,

688
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: like why do you think the Kennedy Center was kind

689
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 3: of his white whale?

690
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the first answer might be a little

691
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 5: bit of a deflection, which is like there are analogies

692
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 5: here to like the East, like the Oval Office and

693
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 5: like other sort of paving over the Rose Garden like

694
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 5: things that why are you thinking about this? Like why

695
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 5: are you showing people carpet swatches when you're supposed to

696
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 5: be like deciding whether to bomb or on. And so

697
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 5: there have been instances of his presidency where he's just

698
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 5: like doing the sort of estate and for Sario thing

699
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 5: in all kinds of inappropriate contexts. And I think there

700
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 5: have been other buildings that he has renamed that seems

701
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 5: sort of like minor random buildings. He's also attacked the Smithsonian,

702
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 5: I think is more of a straightforward political move to

703
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 5: sort of limit the possibilities of what people might know

704
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 5: about the country and its history. And then, but why

705
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 5: is the Kennedy Center perhaps even more important than these

706
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 5: other things. I think you're absolutely right that it is

707
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 5: a kind of portal into the heart and soul of

708
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 5: the country, and it's the national stage, and like, what

709
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 5: does he want to be always on but the national stage.

710
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 5: And there's something about Kennedy himself I think that is

711
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 5: unbearable to Trump.

712
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sort of.

713
00:41:54,600 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 5: Courtly, polished, gracious, like all these things that he doesn't

714
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 5: think he will ever really be.

715
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you brought it back to Kennedy because

716
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 2: something that we had a guest kind of make this

717
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 2: point and I think it has sort of not left

718
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: either of us, which is like John F. Kennedy and

719
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 2: his sensibility is actually way more trumpy than people think,

720
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: because it's like Jackie was the one who had the

721
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: like amazing taste and you know, was attracted to high

722
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: art and all this stuff. But then JFK and the

723
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: Kennedy family especially always had kind of ties to Hollywood,

724
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 2: to celebrity culture. Joe Kennedy was a Hollywood producer. JFK,

725
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: even while in office, was obsessed with celebrity gossip. I mean,

726
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 2: part of his obsession with figures like Marilyn Monroe and

727
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: whatever is almost this very Trump like attraction to kind

728
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 2: of stars, just like the big stars. You know, he

729
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 2: isn't about He's not trying to find like the diamond

730
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: in the rough. It's like, who are the top five

731
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: stars I need to know about? Like he's like, you know,

732
00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: if he lived in a different era, he would care

733
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: about like Brandelina, you know. And I think it's so

734
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: weirdly perfect that it's kind of come full circle to

735
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: Trump in this strange way. But in terms of to

736
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: kind of like broaden the scope of this and think

737
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: about how other presidents have run the Kennedy Center. Obviously,

738
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: Trump is not the first president to have kind of

739
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: one hand in the culture industry. I mean, even Barack Obama,

740
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: since he has left office, you know, has these deals

741
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 2: with Netflix, releases his you know, list of his favorite

742
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: books and movies every year whatever. Obviously, like interacting with

743
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 2: pop culture in this way is a way to telegraph

744
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: your taste, a way to sort of like project some

745
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: sort of authority whatever. In terms of the Kennedy Center,

746
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: can you think of other major productions or projects or

747
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: honorees that were ways for other presidents to do on

748
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: a much a scale the kind of thing Trump is

749
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: trying to do, Like, was there I mean even just

750
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, putting on some sort of controversial player

751
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: musical to show that we're you know, we're taking a

752
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 2: stand of Is there anything like that that comes to mind?

753
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 5: I mean, these are absolutely the right questions, and I

754
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 5: have to confess confess that we're butting up to the

755
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 5: limits of my reporting on the chestent day sort of

756
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 5: disrepair at the Center. But I would say two things

757
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 5: that come to mind. First, the money foreign born Kennedy

758
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 5: Center honorees, whether it's like Boroshnikov Placido Domingo, Joni Mitchell,

759
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 5: many of the Beatles Bono. There's just been many, many

760
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 5: artists who have been honored not because they're American, but

761
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 5: because of the impact that they have had on American culture.

762
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 4: And I sort of love that vision of the way.

763
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 5: That the Kennedy Center has con of American art, not

764
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 5: only in terms of like what it's produced, but what

765
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 5: it admires, what it appreciates and values, and how sort

766
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 5: of collaborative and international that is. So I think that's

767
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 5: like one broad message that has sort of fallen away

768
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 5: in the Trump.

769
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 4: Era, and then another and.

770
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 5: Also of course more diverse recipients, like there have been

771
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 5: like the sort of creators of jazz and blues and

772
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 5: different types of dance, and that has all been you know,

773
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 5: overdue but still important. And then in terms of like

774
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 5: the way that the Kennedy Center has functioned politically, there's

775
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 5: there's like the Presidential Box and the Opera House, which

776
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 5: is where the sort of.

777
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 4: VIPs go to.

778
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 5: Often like sometimes with the President and sometimes just as

779
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 5: a gift from the President to witness like whatever the

780
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 5: top performance happening at the Kennedy Center is. And I've

781
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:07,439
Speaker 5: heard that through most of Obama's presidency, it was full

782
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 5: every night, so we made very very powerful use of it.

783
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 5: And in the Trump first term, apparently it was also

784
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 5: full every night. I don't think I haven't gotten confirmation

785
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 5: on this. I don't think that that has necessarily been

786
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 5: true in the second term. So that's another strange development.

787
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 3: There's one more thing I just wanted to note before

788
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 3: we wrap up. You talked about, you know, we've been

789
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 3: discussing the funding, the new funding structure under the Trump administration,

790
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 3: and you mentioned in your piece that the House Environment

791
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: and Public Works Committee launched an investigation into Richard Grennell's leadership,

792
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: which it seems like almost can be described as a

793
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 3: sort of cash for access system. It's very pay to play.

794
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: How similar or different is this from the way that

795
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 3: Trump kind of used his DC hotel in the first term.

796
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 5: I think pretty similar, you know. I'm just trying to

797
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 5: think about specific examples. If like, around the World Cup

798
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 5: draw like that a bunch of like Saudi Arabian officials

799
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 5: and high up people were milling around in this room,

800
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 5: and at the end of the FIFA draw, like a

801
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: bunch of deals were announced. And also the Kennedy Center

802
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 5: according to Richard Grennell on social media, which is never

803
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 5: like the most reliable source, but the Kennedy Center apparently

804
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 5: had raised millions of dollars, so there's definitely this kind

805
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 5: of com mingle brush shoulders, like we'll get some donations,

806
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 5: it'll be kind of political, but kind of not. I

807
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 5: think that may be more the role of like the

808
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 5: sponsorship of particular performances. I don't get the sense that

809
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 5: artists themselves are kind of granted access to the Kennedy

810
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 5: Center stage because of their support for Trump. Although your

811
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 5: point about like maybe Kid Rock next year, I wouldn't

812
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 5: be surprised.

813
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I wonder we should do. I'm

814
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: going to go get on polymarket and bet on who

815
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: the bet on who the next Suneries are going to be? Okay, Katie,

816
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 2: final question, which is a difficult one. Where is all

817
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: this going? What do you what do you think the

818
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: future of the Kennedy Center holds? I mean, it's about

819
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 2: to close for two years for renovations. Presumably by the

820
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: time it's back, if all goes according to the Planet,

821
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: it'll be towards the end of the Trump administration or

822
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 2: even even after he's out of office. What is it

823
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: going to take to either sort of bring it back

824
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: to what it was or kind of see a sort

825
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: of slow death of what what do you think it'll

826
00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 2: look like in a few years.

827
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a really hard question. From what

828
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 5: I have heard, it has been maybe not irreparably broken,

829
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 5: but it has been truly truly manhandled and taken apart,

830
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 5: and it will take in the same way that like

831
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 5: some of the Omb stuff after Doge hit, like it

832
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 5: will take decades to rebuild. Just I mean, think about

833
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 5: all of the institutional knowledge and the long standing relationships

834
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 5: and the sort of easy back and forth between these

835
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 5: career programmers and the talent community and not just artists

836
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 5: but agents and the people who like connect talent with

837
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 5: performing spaces, and the loss of prestige which has been enormous,

838
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 5: and prestige also being something that would attract people to

839
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 5: the Kennedy Center because they can't pay as much as

840
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 5: a privately owned on you and like the in house

841
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 5: marketing team has all quit, you know, so just all

842
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 5: of this sort of basic stuff that you don't even

843
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 5: think about that needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

844
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 5: So it's going to be I think a long track,

845
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 5: but there also seems to be a lot of people

846
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 5: who really care about it and want to make it work.

847
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 5: And maybe, you know, the board is going to or

848
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 5: at least some members of the board will outlast Trump,

849
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 5: assuming he doesn't get a third term. And that may

850
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,240
Speaker 5: be difficult because the board is pretty in lockstep with Trump.

851
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 5: But eventually, yeah, maybe it could, it could make a comeback.

852
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: All right, right, I note a very cautious optimism the internet,

853
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: and until then, you know, anyone can go on YouTube

854
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: and watch aDNA Menzel perform for a very unimpressed, barbarous

855
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: trice and.

856
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: You should, you should, and you should.

857
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: That's right, Katie, Thank you so much for joining us.

858
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 2: This was really sort of enjoyable to talk to you,

859
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 2: but depressing to hear everything you're saying.

860
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 4: Well, you're welcome, and I'm sorry.

861
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay, okay, all right, thank you.

862
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: So much, Thanks Katie.

863
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you.

864
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode.

865
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: Subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all things

866
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 2: Kennedy every week.

867
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me Julia Clair

868
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 3: and George Savers.

869
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 2: Original music by Joshua Tapolski.

870
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: Editing by Graham Gibson.

871
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame.

872
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson.

873
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

874
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 3: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. Created by Lyra Smith,

875
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 3: United

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Speaker 1: States of Kennedy is a production that her podcast