Speaker 1: When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be
Speaker 1: honest with you. I sel t shirts and swag to
Speaker 1: the folks who are there, and then people always say,
Speaker 1: can we get this wag without sitting through a whole
Speaker 1: evening of you. Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You
Speaker 1: can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson Merch
Speaker 1: website and you can buy it for yourself or someone
Speaker 1: you hate or someone you love. For more information and
Speaker 1: link to the web store, please go to the Craig
Speaker 1: Fergusonshow dot com. That's all lowercase, the Craig Ferguson show
Speaker 1: dot com. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of
Speaker 1: this podcast is joy. I talk to interest in people
Speaker 1: about what brings them happiness.
Speaker 2: My guest today.
Speaker 1: On the podcast is someone who is, let's be honest, Canadian.
Speaker 1: But he's a friend of mine and I've been aware
Speaker 1: of him for a long time.
Speaker 2: He's about the same age as me.
Speaker 1: He was on The Kids in the Hall when I
Speaker 1: was in We Have, He was in news radio when
Speaker 1: I was in The Drew Carey Show, and then we
Speaker 1: worked together.
Speaker 2: On hat in Cleveland.
Speaker 1: It's my favorite kid in the hall apart from the
Speaker 1: other ones. No, he's my favorite. They fully everyone.
Speaker 2: I'm going So you're saying Czech is now called Chechia. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Turkey is no code Turkey Canada Canada ayah, Canada aya
Speaker 2: canaday ayah. Because you are, of course famously Canadian. I am.
Speaker 2: I'm I am an official icon. Yeah they do they
Speaker 2: have a fully day or anything like that. No, no,
Speaker 2: they don't.
Speaker 1: You're much beloved in the Land of the North, I believe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you'd think more No. No, in Canada is like Scotland. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh are you you're doing well?
Speaker 2: Well, good for you. Yeah, I'm actually I would say
Speaker 2: probably more blarge in America.
Speaker 1: That's definitely the case with me and Scotland. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: kind of don't like me.
Speaker 2: When you come back and say, oh, yeah, Jim Carrey
Speaker 2: told me a thing. He's Canadian y Yeah, right, yes,
Speaker 2: we know who every Canadian is, going back to the
Speaker 2: beginning of time, the first Canadian. If there was a Canadian,
Speaker 2: is there a hymn at the Earth Canadian came in? Yeah,
Speaker 2: if there was a Canadian of the Crucifixion, we'd be
Speaker 2: proud of him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like any Canadian no matter what. Well, so
Speaker 1: you know Jim Carrey's Canadian. Yes, And he said to
Speaker 1: me that when he goes home, they say to him, oh, hi, Jim,
Speaker 1: what are you not eating now? Because of his Hollywood connection,
Speaker 1: you see. Yeah, I don't know how it is now.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen Jim.
Speaker 2: Do you know Jim Carrey? I don't know, Mom, I've
Speaker 2: only met him a couple of times. I've already met
Speaker 2: him a couple of times too over the years.
Speaker 1: And I did a movie with him briefly, and he
Speaker 1: was in the movie a lot, and I was in
Speaker 1: it briefly.
Speaker 2: But he's sold a cameo if you're famous. I think
Speaker 2: it was more were you famous at the time? No
Speaker 2: bit part, bit part? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it was more a kind of bit part
Speaker 1: that was cut down from bit to micro micro part.
Speaker 1: But he was very pleasant, I have to say, in
Speaker 1: that Canadian way of you know friendly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all stereotypical, yeah, because those positive aggression there,
Speaker 2: it's really just something we put on for foreigners. When
Speaker 2: so when the lights and you're all Canadians together, Oh
Speaker 2: that's it's crazy vicious. How long have you lived in
Speaker 2: America twenty more than twenty eight years. I think it
Speaker 2: went way. Yeah, yeah, almost. I moved here in thirty
Speaker 2: three when I was thirty, nineteen three thirty. When I
Speaker 2: moved here, it was.
Speaker 1: Kas was imagining as no, that's anyway, look America refusing
Speaker 1: to join the war.
Speaker 2: That's right, Well there wasn't the war. Yeah, if there
Speaker 2: was going to be a wall, they were thinking about
Speaker 2: refusing it. Yes, was that the kids in the whole?
Speaker 2: Was that in Canada? Then? Well we ended like we
Speaker 2: finished shooting the show guess in ninety four and they
Speaker 2: finished airing in ninety five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you show you showed them in Canada. We
Speaker 1: shot them all in Toronto. Yeah, but they were aired
Speaker 1: on CBS.
Speaker 2: We were on the last two or three years were CBS, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and Comedy Central. So that's where I first noticed the
Speaker 2: Cobody Central. I think, Yeah, we were on, well, we
Speaker 2: were on HBO first and CBC in Canada, and then
Speaker 2: we were on Then Comedy Central would air the shows.
Speaker 2: I forget how many weeks after HBO aired them a
Speaker 2: censored version we did a reboot for Amazon. Oh god,
Speaker 2: you know what I knew? I watched it. It was
Speaker 2: just the same. Oh yes, no, No. The reason why
Speaker 2: I forgot about it was because it was like, because
Speaker 2: the whole it was actually very satisfying, because it was
Speaker 2: more episodes. Because the whole, I did like it. I'm
Speaker 2: so sorry. No, well, that's what we wanted it to
Speaker 2: feel like. I mean, we always like within the Troop,
Speaker 2: we always referred to it as season six. I think
Speaker 2: that's correct because I was like, oh my god, it's
Speaker 2: the same, except you know everybody, you know, nobody sits
Speaker 2: in sugar Mint Forever. No, because you were also young
Speaker 2: and promising, it wasn't so ironic but started. That's the
Speaker 2: thing with Kid and the title, Yeah, Kid rock. Kids
Speaker 2: in the whole didn't play Kid didn't play. You're gonna,
Speaker 2: You're gonna. They'll become a time when you think, I
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't call myself that it's too late now. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Do you think sting Ever thinks that? It's like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, Now, I don't think sting Ever. I don't
Speaker 2: think sting Ever has a negative thought about himself, you
Speaker 2: know what. I think that's true. Yeah, Well, who's the
Speaker 2: it was the other one, the American one, Yeah, the drummer. Yeah,
Speaker 2: great drummer. Yeah, do you think, Oh sure, I think
Speaker 2: he's too busy as a drummer. I like him.
Speaker 1: I like a drummer who's like a little more kind
Speaker 1: of like all right, Raina and st You know what
Speaker 1: really bothers me. Drummers who stand up, Oh yeah, knock
Speaker 1: that ship off like little end up at the end
Speaker 1: of a song.
Speaker 2: Or what if they do it just to take their
Speaker 2: T shirt off? Well that's bad too.
Speaker 1: I don't mind them standing up if it's the end
Speaker 1: of the show and they got to go home. Yeah,
Speaker 1: standing up during the show at the end of a
Speaker 1: song here, you know, Yeah, no play the drums and
Speaker 1: let someone else do it.
Speaker 2: Mail Part never stood up or took a show. Never
Speaker 2: did that.
Speaker 1: Now New Part was a busy drummer, but he could
Speaker 1: get away with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you went to Rush when you were you know what? II.
Speaker 2: When I was a teenager, I wasn't really that into them.
Speaker 2: I knew there was a band that used to open
Speaker 2: for them all the time that I was more into,
Speaker 2: called Max Webster. Okay, and then I, as an adult,
Speaker 2: I got to be I got to know their music
Speaker 2: more as an adult, and I became friends with them
Speaker 2: all as an adult. Yeah, when I'm in back when
Speaker 2: I was making news radio. You know what I'm going
Speaker 2: to get to news radio, isn't it. But the thing
Speaker 2: about Russia is I hated Rush when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: I hated them.
Speaker 1: And then I saw that documentary on I think it
Speaker 1: was Netflix or something, and I was like, I'm a
Speaker 1: Dick Russier. Awesome, And I had to go back and
Speaker 1: listen to their bike catalog and I was like, this
Speaker 1: is great.
Speaker 2: Why did I hear this? Because you were in the
Speaker 2: punk That's exactly what it was. I was in the
Speaker 2: punk and you weren't allowed to like anything that wasn't punk.
Speaker 2: I know, well I have. I've even been going through
Speaker 2: things like my my daughter has been educating me in
Speaker 2: music of my youth. Yeah, thats to me too. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like she got me to like not even like love
Speaker 2: E l O, which at the time I didn't as
Speaker 2: a deep cup for me. Man, I'm not into yellow. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they're great. So you say I mean like me amazing? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I remember they did a version of Rollover Beejove, and
Speaker 1: I liked when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: Mister blue Sky is amazing. Can't do that it is
Speaker 2: a great song. Can't do it to I was. I
Speaker 2: was with you until until what happened to you? School?
Speaker 2: You you used to be like the whole youth was
Speaker 2: the kids in the hole was like you guys, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I it's those forty five minute drives to my daughter's
Speaker 2: school up in La you know. And it was always
Speaker 2: her playlist, so really, oh yeah, we listened to her
Speaker 2: playlist every morning to schools. And it was full of
Speaker 2: she was. It was full of elo and and and
Speaker 2: she was. She was playing deep cuts from the Kinks
Speaker 2: and the Zombies and the King.
Speaker 1: Second, I can go with a little. The Kings, well,
Speaker 1: they were proto punk. They were proto punk. Actually they were.
Speaker 1: They had a they had an attitude about them. They
Speaker 1: didn't get along. They were kind of like Ote and
Speaker 1: what was the other one?
Speaker 2: Ray Davis and then Dave Davies and Dave Babies and.
Speaker 1: And then there was Regis Tito and Jermaine Thing. That
Speaker 1: was a lot of Davies and I love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were like when I was a teenager
Speaker 2: before punk really kind of hit in my high school, right,
Speaker 2: all of us we were like neo hippies, but we
Speaker 2: all listened to like Early Who and Kinks.
Speaker 1: Early Who was like a big deal. Hope I die
Speaker 1: before I get older. Yeah, I member see.
Speaker 2: Because they're all quite the ones who are still alive
Speaker 2: yet old. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And some of them did die before they get old. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some of them died they wanted. One of them died old,
Speaker 1: one of them young.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I know he looked but he looked terrible.
Speaker 2: So he made me feel better about it. Look very
Speaker 2: thoughtful of him.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a way of you know, giving the little
Speaker 1: sugar with the medicine.
Speaker 2: Maybe, I don't know. It's bad though. He had a
Speaker 2: thirty three. I mean that's terrible. That's alcoholism. I know.
Speaker 2: Are you still single? Yeah again? No, single again? Single again? Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I'm good at relationships. But how long? I mean
Speaker 2: he times to be married? Uh twice but well actually
Speaker 2: well sort of three times? Oh wait, divorced bad it survived. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know what. So twice married, but I was
Speaker 2: with my second wife twice Okay, yeah we were. We
Speaker 2: were married, separated for ten years. Okay, we got back
Speaker 2: together for I think I remember this. Yeah. Yah, we
Speaker 2: got back to there for five and now we're separated again. Okay, well,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to hear that is everything cool? Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: everything's fine, all right, We're very We're very close. Still.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great. That's good. That's the advantage of being
Speaker 2: a little older all that rage. Yes yeah what yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: and having a truly nightmarish for comparing to the first one,
Speaker 2: everything was always gonna.
Speaker 1: You failed famously. Yeah, yeah, wow, big one. Do you
Speaker 1: I remember me talking about that one point. I was
Speaker 1: you were telling me the the conditions of your divorce agreement.
Speaker 2: I was like, that doesn't seem possible. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 2: uncommon in Canada. They still do that. You still under that.
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not. I know, I'm but only like
Speaker 2: from over a little over a year. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: and you were apart for twenty thirty years, you know. Yeah, geez,
Speaker 2: I don't know many.
Speaker 1: Let's see, I've been married three times, yes, but I'm
Speaker 1: on the third one.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: First one was when I was twenty one. Yeah, divorced
Speaker 1: when I we were like twenty four.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel that doesn't count that much because
Speaker 1: you know, there were no kids.
Speaker 2: And then I got married again when I was thirty eight,
Speaker 2: divorced when I was thirty or thirty six hours, something
Speaker 2: like thirty six, divorced when I was like forty one, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then not being married to Megan for one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty years.
Speaker 1: At this point, it's a lot since two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: so that seems like a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we were together before that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: now that's all good. Well I'm thinking, well maybe maybe someday. Well,
Speaker 2: I think it's fine for you. It will be all right.
Speaker 1: You didn't ask me for my romantic guestory, and I
Speaker 1: don't know why I felt the need to tell you, but.
Speaker 2: It's nice to figure out. It's catches. I met, I met,
Speaker 2: I met your your your at the hockey the other night.
Speaker 2: We went to the New York Rangers. Yeah. Yeah, my
Speaker 2: youngest son. I have two of them. Yes, because you're
Speaker 2: and he's Yeah, because you're you're was about the same.
Speaker 2: It's just one of my kids, yeah, right, twenty three
Speaker 2: three three yeah, Yeah. I have a daughter that's twenty one,
Speaker 2: just turning twenty one on the sixteenth muscle toough. You're
Speaker 2: gonna have a party. She is, because she's turning twenty
Speaker 2: one in America, right, So what that means, Yeah, you
Speaker 2: could drink yeah, without taking her fake idea out with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to me coming from where's was the
Speaker 1: drinking age in Canada?
Speaker 2: Canada is nineteen yeah, Scotland. I think it's twelve five five? Yeah, No,
Speaker 2: I think I think it's I think it's eighteen in Scotland. Yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe sixteen. Yeah. The effective drinking age in Canada is
Speaker 2: much lower. Yes, the effective drinking agent for me. I
Speaker 2: started drinking I was thirteen. Yeah, I was around there. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Did you ever run out of problems with the booze? Oh? God? No? Oh?
Speaker 2: Good for you? Yeah yeah, yeah, little.
Speaker 1: You know what I've always meant to ask you. You
Speaker 1: related to the fully people that do the special effects,
Speaker 1: remember the fully thing. I don't think so, because I
Speaker 1: should try to find no. Or I don't think we're
Speaker 1: related to the catheter people either. They make catheters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the fully there is as a medical instrument that
Speaker 2: so far I have.
Speaker 1: I used to avoid that one so far. Aaging is
Speaker 1: an undignified process, though, isn't it? Oh it is, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. I find that you and I are almost
Speaker 1: exactly the same man. I was nineteen sixty two, I.
Speaker 2: Was born I'm sixty three. Yeah, oh I'm older than you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: January January sixty three, Oh right, May sixty two, so
Speaker 2: much less less seven or eight months. But I find
Speaker 2: myself you're drinking black coffee. I'm drinking a very unpleasant
Speaker 2: drink called pure green. Yeah, it's garbage. I just I
Speaker 2: just was in my pharmacy. Uh, you own a farmace, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I bought a pharmacy because for you, of acting isn't stable. No,
Speaker 2: it is. No. I wish I owned a pharmacy. I
Speaker 2: wish I owned a farm, and I kind of part
Speaker 2: part of my life. I wish you. And at this point,
Speaker 2: I don't even own a car. At this point, well
Speaker 2: you live in New York. Yeah, I need a car.
Speaker 2: We down a car for no. But I went in
Speaker 2: and was looking at like a big tub of powder
Speaker 2: that said, you know, greens on it, and asking a
Speaker 2: young man who worked there, and you basically just said
Speaker 2: you look healthy. Is this any good? But no, but
Speaker 2: I was born in two thousand and four. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: ready said yeah, this is good. So I haven't tried
Speaker 2: it yet, but I'm yeah, I'll be drinking that. It's
Speaker 2: just there's so many unpleasant things to eat and drink
Speaker 2: because you Yeah, yeah, I'm doing things like but I'm
Speaker 2: taking a bag of supplements this big right, you can't
Speaker 2: see this on your radio football. I was going to
Speaker 2: say small lord to mid sized watermelon. Yeah, and which
Speaker 2: is about the size of Yeah. And do you do
Speaker 2: you have that that red Every every day there's that
Speaker 2: period I have to go take a fist full of pills. No,
Speaker 2: I don't. It's oh, it's good. And and some of
Speaker 2: them are prescriptions. I had prescription for No, No, that's
Speaker 2: that's your balls sophag Oh, yes, the gurd meppersol right, netpersol. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you take that, that's one of my supplements. Well, let
Speaker 2: me tell you about that thing though. You gotta be careful.
Speaker 2: You take that too long and then suddenly you're you know,
Speaker 2: I've already been taking it too long. What's up? Don't
Speaker 2: worry about it. It's fine. It's totally totally harmless every way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's right, you call it that. Yeah, So yeah, I
Speaker 2: get the Jared and I had to have a school.
Speaker 2: My dad died of cancer. That's yeah, that's why I
Speaker 2: that's why I'm still taking the metpersolts because they told me,
Speaker 2: if you don't treat it. They can, they can lead
Speaker 2: to that. Yeah, have you got the Barretts? Is that
Speaker 2: where you got? I don't know what's what's that Barrett's esophagus?
Speaker 2: I don't know what that is. Well, it's two things.
Speaker 1: One it was one of the forgotten bands of woodstock,
Speaker 1: and the other one is that it was inflammation or
Speaker 1: some kind of disease of yours.
Speaker 2: Yeahocracy until they get to what do I have to do?
Speaker 1: Don't listen to any of the Yeah, yeah, here here's
Speaker 1: the thing, Bob, have you been on vacation this year?
Speaker 2: All that stuff they say, yes, that take this.
Speaker 1: I don't know, though, I find myself a little more
Speaker 1: health conscious than.
Speaker 2: I used to be. Yeah, because age is terrifying. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: but there's all this great science on aging that's being done.
Speaker 2: Oh really, Yeah, Like you've read me up with like
Speaker 2: David Sinclair. Who's David Sinclair? He is a scientist. Where
Speaker 2: is he from? Was he with them out here? Harvard?
Speaker 2: I can't remember now, but he wrote a book Aging
Speaker 2: and Why Maybe we don't have to something like that.
Speaker 2: It's the title of the book. It's like an easy click. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he's been doing stuff like he's actually in the
Speaker 2: lab halted and reversed the aging and mice, and believes
Speaker 2: he can do that in humans. That, yeah, you can
Speaker 2: actually just turn your age back about twenty years. Uh.
Speaker 2: And then I bet it involves fasting. No, this is
Speaker 2: just basically a pill. Uh Yeah, hang on, I'm listening. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is it colder zampic by any other? No? No, although
Speaker 2: he does, he does promote the fasting, which I do.
Speaker 2: I do. I do too, I do too. I actually
Speaker 2: get a kickout. I can't. Like, I haven't eaten anything today,
Speaker 2: and I've had a banana, Yeah, only because my wife
Speaker 2: was here. Yeah, eat a banana forgot? No, I haven't
Speaker 2: even I haven't eaten breakfast in years, like right, I
Speaker 2: don't usually eat till like at least two o'clock.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of like that anyway. I I kind
Speaker 1: of it's not that hard to do in mid fasting.
Speaker 2: That's kind of. Now your sleep for most of it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right, you're sleep for most of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But one thing I have to see, this is a
Speaker 1: geezer thing that I have to say. If I don't
Speaker 1: eat for like four or five hours before I go
Speaker 1: to sleep, if I can go to sleep, hungry.
Speaker 2: I sleep a little better, yeah, because yeah, no, I
Speaker 2: think I yeah, I stop eating at ten right when
Speaker 2: you go to sleep? Uh me, usually around between midnight
Speaker 2: and two usually, Yeah, what do you do? Are you
Speaker 2: at the club? No? No, I'm lying in bed, fasting alright,
Speaker 2: worrying about things. Oh my god? Yeah, god, I still
Speaker 2: worry about everything else. And well, you have children, you're
Speaker 2: never gonna don't worry. Yeah, you're gonna be worried all
Speaker 2: the time. Yeah. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand Up
Speaker 2: Tour continues throughout the United States in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: For a full list of dates and tickets, go to
Speaker 2: the Craig Ferguson show dot com slash tour. So you
Speaker 2: are there, do you believe the adage you're only as
Speaker 2: happy as your least happy child? Oh? I oh help not?
Speaker 2: Well wait a minute. What if you don't pay attention
Speaker 2: to that child? Well, well then you're all right, all right.
Speaker 2: That's that's part of the reverse aging process. It's a
Speaker 2: reverse reach around of age. If you only think about yourself,
Speaker 2: then you'll be fine. Yeah, somebody talk to me about
Speaker 2: a zempic because a friend of mine who you know,
Speaker 2: lost a little weight with a zempick. And I was like,
Speaker 2: is it good? Because I was you know who couldn't
Speaker 2: lose a little way, I'd love to lose some weight.
Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, it really works. You just you know, really,
Speaker 1: you have no appetite. You know, you're just not hungry now,
Speaker 1: Like I haven't been hungry since the nineteen seventies. I
Speaker 1: don't eat because I'm hungry. Are you because I'm sad? Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm sad. I totally understand that. Yeah, I need something
Speaker 1: to cheer me up. I'm thinking more cocaine. Cocaine cheer
Speaker 1: issue up.
Speaker 2: And loan calories and lone calories and you don't feel
Speaker 2: like eating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does seem to have dramatic behavioral side effects,
Speaker 1: not that I've ever noticed. Well, okay, fair enough. In
Speaker 1: that case, we read my screenplate. You read my screenplay.
Speaker 2: So how does it start for you? You're in Toronto.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're a beautiful little boy with a school uniform
Speaker 1: and you're the pride of the Foley family. You go,
Speaker 1: this is the new catheter boy for us, right, because
Speaker 1: you're not from a show business.
Speaker 2: Family or no, I'm from a construction family. Right, So
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, that was a pipe yeah, Dave. Well
Speaker 2: my dad, my dad was a pipefitter who wanted to
Speaker 2: who want wanted to be lumberjack No, no, no, uh
Speaker 2: jack kerouac basically oh wow. Yeah. He wanted to be
Speaker 2: a you know, working class poet. Right. Yeah. But but
Speaker 2: the only part of that that he really got down
Speaker 2: was the alcoholism. Yes, yes, my old yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: we're you know, he was like second generation Canadian Irish. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so it was it was kind of a working
Speaker 2: class family, but a working class family with pretensions. I
Speaker 2: guess you'd say my mom was just straight up working
Speaker 2: class English with no pretensions. Yes, it was no dive. Yes,
Speaker 2: oh well why would why would they want you to
Speaker 2: do that? Yeah? Do you want to you want to
Speaker 2: invent the catheter? Invent the catheter? Yeah? I know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my mom was, Yeah, it was. Her philosophy was you're
Speaker 2: only two philosophical ideas were don't fuss, okay, and her
Speaker 2: second was, oh that's how they get you. Well, you know,
Speaker 2: it's not bad.
Speaker 1: Actually it's a little it's a little stark and bleak,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's belt and yeah, but it's.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, it's always everyone's always out to get you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my mother used to see. My mother used to
Speaker 1: say stuff whenever we went to a store.
Speaker 2: I was a kid. I remember that.
Speaker 1: She would say, like she would get this when back
Speaker 1: when people had money instead of you know, cards, so
Speaker 1: it would be you know cash and coins and stuff
Speaker 1: and notes and coins or now case coins.
Speaker 2: And she would say, once we walked out the store,
Speaker 2: she would say, did you see that girl trying to
Speaker 2: take my change? I said, I said, yes, she was
Speaker 2: thinking about taking my change, but then she saw me
Speaker 2: looking at her. She changed mind. And I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't see the world like everyone trying to take
Speaker 2: your change. Yeah, but I understand that some people do. Yes, Andy,
Speaker 2: I do see the world.
Speaker 1: But I thought, anyway, So you're the pipe Fitter's alcoholic
Speaker 1: pipefitter son, Yeah, I think I feel like that's the
Speaker 1: beginning of a limerick. It was only an alcoholic pipe
Speaker 1: fitters son.
Speaker 2: Good'll work out the rest of Yeah, we'll put it
Speaker 2: in and post. So the So what happened? How did
Speaker 2: you get the show business? Accidentally? Really? It was? I
Speaker 2: think when I was a kid, I thought I would
Speaker 2: I thought maybe I would be a writer, right, I
Speaker 2: like writing a lot, and you know, I thought, I,
Speaker 2: you know, and I would write funny things. It was
Speaker 2: my you know, because I was always the funny one
Speaker 2: in my group of friends when when I when I
Speaker 2: would have one. Uh. And to be fair, that's that's
Speaker 2: pretty little bar Canada. Yeah, have you met Jim Carrey?
Speaker 2: Just kidding it was a joke. Oh man, the uh
Speaker 2: but so we're in Literally it was little. I was
Speaker 2: in high school and an alternative high school, which meant
Speaker 2: I was not doing anything that was ever going to
Speaker 2: make me graduate. Hold on an altenative high school. It
Speaker 2: was like a hippie high school. Oh, it was like
Speaker 2: one of these high schools that started in the late sixties.
Speaker 2: How does the Pipe First Sun get into an aeutenative
Speaker 2: high school? Well, my older brother went there and in
Speaker 2: like the early seventies, right, and I went there and
Speaker 2: I saw it. I went down and visited it. It
Speaker 2: was you know, when he went there, it was like
Speaker 2: this crazy school that was full of hippies and graffiti
Speaker 2: on all the walls and it was just very cool.
Speaker 2: It seemed very cool. Is that boarding school? No, No, nope,
Speaker 2: And this is public school too. It is run by
Speaker 2: the Board of education. So it was all free, right,
Speaker 2: And so I thought though that when I get when
Speaker 2: I'm old enough, I'm going to go to that school.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, so I after, you know, during like
Speaker 2: one year regular high school, I transferred to this alternative
Speaker 2: high school, and which I said was kind of like
Speaker 2: a school for smart troublemakers. So it was a way
Speaker 2: funneling all the people who were causing trouble in regular
Speaker 2: high school out of the system, okay, you know. And
Speaker 2: so I went went there and we met had this
Speaker 2: great group of friends that were all everyone. Everyone was
Speaker 2: a poet and a painter and and troublemakers. Yes, ye, troublemakers.
Speaker 2: They're all kind of caravac Yeah yeah, right, and you know,
Speaker 2: and it was you know, it's the thing. You know,
Speaker 2: you called your teachers by the first names and good
Speaker 2: or classes are only about seven or eight people, and
Speaker 2: at the beginning of each class, we only had tutorials,
Speaker 2: not really classes, right, and you would we would vote
Speaker 2: on whether to be a smoking or non smoking class. Wow, yes,
Speaker 2: and uh, no class ever voted to be non smoking.
Speaker 2: You shocked me. Yeah, wow, that's this is incredible. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And then we had we had a little common room
Speaker 2: for the students. Uh and literally we would just go
Speaker 2: in there, listen to old Pink, Floyd and Kink's albums
Speaker 2: and smoke pot and drink wine.
Speaker 1: That sounds like every you don't usually get it kind
Speaker 1: of you know provide. So is that where you met
Speaker 1: the other kids in the mill?
Speaker 2: No? No, that's but that's where I a friend of
Speaker 2: mine on the way to school one day, I've been
Speaker 2: making her laugh all the way to school. Evelyn Chippea.
Speaker 2: Always give her a credit. Right. We were riding the bus,
Speaker 2: you know, like a forty five minute trip to the school,
Speaker 2: and we're riding the bus together and I was making
Speaker 2: her laugh all the way to school. We were just
Speaker 2: having fun. And then as we're getting off the bus,
Speaker 2: he goes, you know, you should do stand up And
Speaker 2: I went on, I never thought about it, and I said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll see if I can write something right,
Speaker 2: And that's basically it. I decided, Okay, I'll sit down
Speaker 2: and I'll try to write a stand up set, and
Speaker 2: you know, sort of dug into like studying house stand
Speaker 2: up sets work. How do the work? I don't know,
Speaker 2: but I did a lot of like research on maybe
Speaker 2: too much research on Lenny Bruce, right right, because I
Speaker 2: decided I was really going to set up to be
Speaker 2: a seventeen year old Lenny Bruce.
Speaker 1: Well that's a caraway aspiration, you know, that's the kind
Speaker 1: of I'm not only going to be funny, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be important and respect and maybe perhaps even dead.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, that's very comedic. I yes, I must very comedian,
Speaker 1: you know, I must be respected.
Speaker 2: As well as be fun yes, yeah, and you know,
Speaker 2: and I always and I was already a fairly heavy
Speaker 2: drinker at that point, so for you know, all lighted up,
Speaker 2: ready to go, yeah, and like you know, and enjoyed
Speaker 2: a few different drugs. So so yeah, so I started
Speaker 2: writing set, and I thought, well, the only way to
Speaker 2: find out if this really works is to go down
Speaker 2: to the local, the Yuck Yuck's Comedy Club Yug Yucks Toronto.
Speaker 2: YEAHYX Toronto. Yeah there's still one. I think there's still
Speaker 2: one there. Yeah. I never played. I've never played at
Speaker 2: Yuk Yuck. No. No, they used to be the only
Speaker 2: thing you could play in Canada, right, Yeah. So I
Speaker 2: went down and started doing open mics and uh and
Speaker 2: then they do and they went okay, yeah, yeah, it
Speaker 2: was sort of a I would. I would be a
Speaker 2: hit every time I do it, and I would, and
Speaker 2: I would. Every time i'd go back, I'd write a
Speaker 2: whole new set. Wow. So like you know, you know,
Speaker 2: you go down, you're doing like five to seven minutes, right,
Speaker 2: And so every time i'd go i'd have it. I'd
Speaker 2: write a new five to seven minutes.
Speaker 1: Which would eventually turn into you go to an hour
Speaker 1: eventually if I kept at it. Well you didn't keep
Speaker 1: at it, no.
Speaker 2: Because somebody suggested, oh you should do there's these improv
Speaker 2: classes you could take. And again going back to my
Speaker 2: Lenny Bruce thing, right, I knew he did a lot
Speaker 2: of improv and enjoined him.
Speaker 1: Not an improv classes, No, he wouldn't be like, okay,
Speaker 1: give me the name of a political ideology that you're angry.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I thought, well I'll go try to
Speaker 2: learn some improv skills, right, and and so I started
Speaker 2: taking went to Second City classes.
Speaker 1: And now that's real, that's that's like proper show business.
Speaker 2: Second City in Toronto is like, yeah, it's like their
Speaker 2: legendary yeah of court. Yeah yeah. And so I went
Speaker 2: and in my very first class, I was paired up
Speaker 2: with a guy named Kevin McDonald. Oh no, we're the
Speaker 2: kids in the whole are beginning to form yes. And
Speaker 2: that was just random our teacher Alan Gutman doing okay,
Speaker 2: let's pair off one two one two one two, just
Speaker 2: like that. Wow, And Kevin and I got paired together.
Speaker 2: We made each other laugh doing a stupid mirror exercise
Speaker 2: and uh, and we both were like, you're very funny man.
Speaker 2: Well and we were clearly we were mocking the exercise
Speaker 2: as we were doing. As you're doing the exercise, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's good, you know. And so it was like, I go, oh,
Speaker 2: I like this guy makes me laugh and he has
Speaker 2: the same attitude to me about anything we're being asked
Speaker 2: to do, right, and uh. At the end of that class,
Speaker 2: he asked me to join his comedy troupe. And what
Speaker 2: were they called? They were, well, I think at the
Speaker 2: time he didn't really have well, he did have one,
Speaker 2: but Kevin likes to say he didn't. But the truth
Speaker 2: is he was in a group with a guy named
Speaker 2: Luciano Kasumiri and another fellow named Scott Stewart that they
Speaker 2: were called Uncle Vanier and the three sisters at the time. Okay,
Speaker 2: and uh, so I joined and ko Oh. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: I joined them and actually it became just Kevin Luchen
Speaker 2: myself and we became eventually the first version of the
Speaker 2: Kids in the Hall. Oh so, the three of us
Speaker 2: were the original Kids in the Hall, and then we
Speaker 2: met up with Mark and Bruce's troop called the Audience,
Speaker 2: and then we sort of merged into when.
Speaker 1: The big kids in the Hall and then what you
Speaker 1: offered buy CVC, come and see and they go, these
Speaker 1: kids are great, Hey, let's get them on TV.
Speaker 2: Well no, oh god, no, Canada. No, that's not how
Speaker 2: it works. No, No, these kids should be in jail. Yeah. No.
Speaker 2: We started doing these shows and eventually Scott. Then Scott
Speaker 2: joined as the fifth member final and we were doing
Speaker 2: these shows on Queen Street in Toronto, which is kind
Speaker 2: of like you know, the like the the hipster sections. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a little more upscale now than it used to.
Speaker 2: I guess the hipster scene has moved further west.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess it had to. Yeah, Toronto is a
Speaker 1: vastly chased city in the last twenty five years. Yes,
Speaker 1: the density is believable. You know, when I first went
Speaker 1: to Toronto, I think it's probably in the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 1: there was only one condo in Toronto.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it was shared. It was it was a
Speaker 2: time share with Gordon Light Lift Gordon and he sang
Speaker 2: that old song only condo in Toronto, which is a
Speaker 2: favorite Buffy. Saint Marie got its Wednesdays and Friday's right
Speaker 2: of Saint Marie. And then I think Rush used it
Speaker 2: over the Christmas period and that was it. Yeah. But
Speaker 2: now it's just like it's condo city. Yeah. The lake
Speaker 2: is walled off by condos.
Speaker 1: Unbelievable, right, I mean it's crazy. Used to be able
Speaker 1: to see that thing on the drive in from the
Speaker 1: airport and now it's just like bang, yes, you get
Speaker 1: off the plane and it's condos everywhere.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it's insanely expensive. Traffic is horrible, worse
Speaker 2: than Los Angeles. Yeah, Small, they have terrible smog in Toronto.
Speaker 2: How can that be in Canada? Yeah, Small, I know,
Speaker 2: smog should be the name of a puppy and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's really strange. Yeah, Toronto has changed incredible, believable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you got your troupe together and how do
Speaker 1: you get on CBC?
Speaker 2: Then, well that happened because we were doing these shows
Speaker 2: on Queen Street, and they gradually became more and more popular,
Speaker 2: and you guys like Beatles in the cat Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was it was getting like that, but you know, but
Speaker 2: comedy so smaller. But we were, yeah, we were. We
Speaker 2: had like lineups around the block for show what you know,
Speaker 2: and uh and we were you know, and and people
Speaker 2: from s c TV started coming to see our show,
Speaker 2: you know, especially Dave. Dave Thomas became a mentor to
Speaker 2: we're talking about Catherine O'Hara and her sister Mary. Margaret
Speaker 2: used to come to the shows all the time. I
Speaker 2: remember now late Joe Flaherty used to come down, Marty
Speaker 2: Short would come down, so uh, you know, so we
Speaker 2: had all these you know, I think Eugene came to
Speaker 2: some of the shows. So we had all of our
Speaker 2: heroes comings.
Speaker 1: Like me, Me and Peter Cook and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: It was like crazy. So we were like, you know,
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by that. So that we were coming really sort
Speaker 1: of known in Toronto.
Speaker 2: So then we got scouted for Saturday Night Live in
Speaker 2: I guess, uh it was eighty five, but because Yvonne Fassan,
Speaker 2: who was a late night vice president at NBC at
Speaker 2: the time, I know nothing about that world. Yes, I
Speaker 2: really don't. Yeah, well he was a vice so he
Speaker 2: was there, and then he recommended us for Saturday Night Live,
Speaker 2: and then shortly after that he left NBC and started
Speaker 2: running the CBC in Canada. So I think it was
Speaker 2: Al Frankin, and I kept thinking it was Jim Downey.
Speaker 2: Kevin keeps saying it was Davis Frankin and Davis, I
Speaker 2: forget his name, Tom Davis, Tom, No, No, I don't
Speaker 2: think so, I remember him. But so they came. We
Speaker 2: did like an audition at the RIVALI our club in
Speaker 2: an empty rivaly to just like Frank, Al frank and
Speaker 2: Dave Thomas, and I think it was Jim Downey and
Speaker 2: we did an and eventually they hired Mark and Bruce
Speaker 2: as apprentice writers for the first Saturn Life in eighty five. Okay,
Speaker 2: and then they wanted to split up the band. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And but what happened was they went down and started
Speaker 2: writing Kids in the Whole sketches for Saturday Night Live
Speaker 2: and none of them got on the air. What a surprise,
Speaker 2: And oh no thanks, I'm good here. And then this
Speaker 2: is not my this is not my prostate, this is
Speaker 2: me pouring war. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, you can
Speaker 2: hear my prostag is going home? What's going on? I'm here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a time, it's always time. Yep. But this they
Speaker 2: kept coming back on the weeks off because turns out
Speaker 2: they have a lot of time off on Saturday A Live.
Speaker 2: I never worked on US. I know they talked about
Speaker 2: how hard it is the off show a week yeah,
Speaker 2: and then yeah, they get week off every three weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean come on. So they'd come back and we
Speaker 2: would do shows in Toronto, and again they get more
Speaker 2: and more popular, and and eventually I think, you know, David,
Speaker 2: Marty and Catherine all kept telling Lauren that you should
Speaker 2: come up and see the troop yourself. Right, So, and
Speaker 2: which is this is almost never happens. I've never heard
Speaker 2: of Lauren leaving New York City. No, say it for
Speaker 2: the Amys. No, Lauren flew up to Toronto, came to
Speaker 2: a nightclub, you know, on Queen Street, Wow, and watched
Speaker 2: us do an entire show. And and we did a
Speaker 2: really long show and a lot of we even did
Speaker 2: new sketches, that's how arrogant we were. And so then
Speaker 2: it was the after about Lauren was deciding whether to
Speaker 2: take some of us to SNL. This is did we say,
Speaker 2: Lauren Michaels, Yes, Lauren Michaels, and so it's uh. So
Speaker 2: was Laurene who decided, after a few days of thinking
Speaker 2: about it, that he didn't want to break the group up.
Speaker 2: Good friend. Yeah, so he decided he wasn't gonna take
Speaker 2: anyone to Saturday Live, and he was going to try
Speaker 2: and find a place to do a Kids in the
Speaker 2: Hall show, and and he flew us all down to
Speaker 2: New York for six months. Wow. Uh to uh to
Speaker 2: write and to be hardened as he said that that
Speaker 2: I'm sure that doesn't happen anymore. No, it was amazing.
Speaker 2: I mean, and Lauren, you know, as I said, like,
Speaker 2: it was totally Lauren's call, that that that the Kids
Speaker 2: in the Hall still exists, because if he was going
Speaker 2: to take some of us to Surnent Live, you know,
Speaker 2: that would have been an end of it. Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 2: Would you have gone, Oh my god? Yes, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I still wish. Sure those guys so, because the whole
Speaker 2: runs for a while and then you end up living
Speaker 2: in la right, Yeah, we do our five years of
Speaker 2: kids and then I get then I got hired to
Speaker 2: do news radio right after.
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say, because news radio,
Speaker 1: you were doing that right and about the time I
Speaker 1: started on the Drew Carry Show.
Speaker 2: Yes, because you guys are what finally killed us. No, yeah,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, because there was a guy, the guy in
Speaker 2: church of scheduling at NBC had been trying to kill
Speaker 2: us since we since we did the pilot. Wow, he
Speaker 2: hated the show. It was the name Preston Beckman. I
Speaker 2: was Preston. He hated news radio. News radio was a
Speaker 2: great show. Oh, but he just despised it and was
Speaker 2: mad that he got picked up. But he was in
Speaker 2: charge of scheduling because like when we were first scheduled,
Speaker 2: we were supposed to get on that that Thursday line up, Yeah,
Speaker 2: the Thursday the Friends and yeah, but this guy said no,
Speaker 2: He refused to let us on, and he kept pairing
Speaker 2: us with shows that were struggling. Yeah, so I think,
Speaker 2: but we were. I think we originally paired with Wings
Speaker 2: that were struggling. Okay, that show lasted forever, yes, and
Speaker 2: but we brought up Wings ratings like once we were
Speaker 2: pairing the Wings ratings went weigh out right, And so
Speaker 2: then he moved us to Sundays with Mad About You,
Speaker 2: which was struggling and I'm seat yes, And then then
Speaker 2: he moved us I forget what night it was, but
Speaker 2: with a third Rock, which was also struggling at the
Speaker 2: top all right, And again the pairing put the ratings
Speaker 2: up and and and our show kept building to be
Speaker 2: a top twenty show over and over again, and but
Speaker 2: he kept moving us to try and so we had
Speaker 2: like eight time slots. What a dick. Yeah, And eventually
Speaker 2: the Drew Carey Show came on and he put us
Speaker 2: up against Drew Carey, right, and it was kind of
Speaker 2: a I think we're both going for the same audience
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. That's probably right. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: that and and that show was such a hit.
Speaker 1: That but you know, I didn't pay any attention to
Speaker 1: that show when I was doing it, funnily.
Speaker 2: Enough, because you were succeeding. That's what happens when you're Yeah,
Speaker 2: you don't just you just don't pay any attention when
Speaker 2: you're failing like us, Oh my god, when you're failing.
Speaker 2: I pay a lot of attention to my failures. You know.
Speaker 2: It's funny.
Speaker 1: I was talking to somebody, a woman not in children
Speaker 1: very intelligent, accomplished woman who's not in show business. And
Speaker 1: she was telling me how much she liked David E.
Speaker 1: Kelly's work. I was like, yeah, no doubt, he's a genius.
Speaker 1: And she said he never fails, and I'm like, no, no,
Speaker 1: he does. He feels as much as everybody else. But
Speaker 1: you don't hear about his failures because that's what show
Speaker 1: business is. If you succeed, people know about it.
Speaker 2: If you fail, the only people that know about it
Speaker 2: other people in show business. That's it. That's it now, see,
Speaker 2: that's that's American show business, Canadian show business.
Speaker 1: All anyone talks about the failures. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's been a while since I've been anywhere I went.
Speaker 1: I did a show in Scotland, I think just before
Speaker 1: the COVID thing, so probably like twenty eighteen or something,
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. I hadn't done a show in forever in
Speaker 1: Scotland and I kind of liked the doing the live
Speaker 1: thing with a live audience.
Speaker 2: But I don't know. I don't think you can go
Speaker 2: back like that once you leave, like you did an
Speaker 2: actual TV show, No, but you don't know, like a
Speaker 2: stand up fuck. No, I didn't do a TV show. No.
Speaker 1: I did it one night at the Edinburgh Festival in
Speaker 1: the playoffs and I liked it. Yeah, but I think
Speaker 1: that's as much as I would ever do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, TV show. No, I was wondering, Yeah, you would
Speaker 2: never do a sitcom first a BBC. I couldn't afford
Speaker 2: to the BBC pay people. It's like, oh, that'll be uh,
Speaker 2: you know, forty eight pounds and your own vouchers for
Speaker 2: the county. The news radio. Phil Hartman was in news radio.
Speaker 2: He was, Yes, it was Phil killed. Durdan was just
Speaker 2: killed during the hiatus of the fourth between the fourth
Speaker 2: and fifth season. It's a terrible, terrible story, that isn't that. No,
Speaker 2: it was, Yes, it was, and I was I was
Speaker 2: on set in Toronto shooting a movie when when I
Speaker 2: heard it. Yeah, it's such a horrible, horrible tale. And
Speaker 2: that was what ninety eight or yes, yeah, it might
Speaker 2: be around that time, Yeah, because I remember everyone in
Speaker 2: Hollywood was like the whole the whole town was like yeah, God,
Speaker 2: it was crazy, just crazy. And I don't even think
Speaker 2: TMZ existed. No, I don't think so. I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: It was like it was so I think because you
Speaker 1: were there at the time. I always thought. And then
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about Phil Hartman, but I'm talking about
Speaker 1: the time in Hollywood, the nineties, the late nineties.
Speaker 2: It was covered expertly in BoJack Horseman. Actually I think, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I have I have to watch more. I haven't watched
Speaker 2: the whole song. Oh BoJack is great man watching it,
Speaker 2: And then I didn't follow Oh no, yeah, you got it.
Speaker 2: It's it's insanely good. But in the the medt to
Speaker 2: late nineties and nearly two thousands, really as well, I
Speaker 2: thought all it was it felt kind of like a
Speaker 2: sleepy sort of a place, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: It was kind of yeah, quiet ish. You know, maybe
Speaker 2: it's because my life was quiet h then I suppose it.
Speaker 2: But show business felt different then it did. It felt Yeah,
Speaker 2: it felt like less dangerous. Yeah, it was really it
Speaker 2: was nice. It kind of was you know, it was
Speaker 2: it was like, you know, you didn't expect to get
Speaker 2: attacked all the time publicly for making some dumb joke,
Speaker 2: which is great because my career has been almost entirely
Speaker 2: dumb jokes. Yeah, there was no yeah, there was no
Speaker 2: social media, right, you know.
Speaker 1: I think social media is like I'm all for technology.
Speaker 1: I'm all for smartphones and like, you know, electronic you know,
Speaker 1: age extension, penis extension.
Speaker 2: Whatever the hell you go going on? Yeah, my penis
Speaker 2: is over four feet long. Now, well that's the electronic.
Speaker 2: That's the wonder of digitization. My mine. I haven't begun
Speaker 2: working mine yet, but yeah, you know I used to
Speaker 2: mind as a as a walking stick. Well you know,
Speaker 2: age comes for result. But the thing is about it.
Speaker 2: I think with the social media, I find myself I
Speaker 2: really hate it. You have to do it. It's kind
Speaker 2: of like like people say, oh, you have to do it,
Speaker 2: I have to yeah, oh yeah, And it's I remember
Speaker 2: like like doing honest think that this sitcumb Doctor Ken, Right,
Speaker 2: that was the first show I was on where they
Speaker 2: had a social media person. Right, that was their job
Speaker 2: and that we would have to do. We would all
Speaker 2: the whole cast would have to gather in a room
Speaker 2: to do live tweeting or you know, live tweeting the
Speaker 2: episode that's airing.
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with Kevin Bacon about this very thing.
Speaker 1: He was he was pissed about it because he did this.
Speaker 1: I can't remember which show he was working on. But
Speaker 1: he said he was doing it was a drama. He's
Speaker 1: kept big and he's a proper actor and he is
Speaker 1: not that you aren't, but yeah, I'm not, but Kevin is.
Speaker 1: And I was talking to him about it, and he said,
Speaker 1: it's so weird because they want me to live tweet,
Speaker 1: you know, the show going out, and the entire job
Speaker 1: is me trying to convince everyone that I'm not Kevin Bacon,
Speaker 1: but at the same time putting out stuff saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I remember this day, it was really cold and we
Speaker 1: had you know.
Speaker 2: Our coffee was late arriving, ruining the show absolutely the
Speaker 2: wrong thing. Yeah, but I think that everything has turned
Speaker 2: into something different, which is I suppose one of the
Speaker 2: effects of living long enough that you start saying because
Speaker 2: I noticed when I drive my family around, I say,
Speaker 2: my kids, you know that KFC that.
Speaker 1: Used to be a subway, and he's like, things used
Speaker 1: to be different. Oh yeah, and the generation right now,
Speaker 1: the Zoomer's a lot of people say bad things about it,
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to join.
Speaker 2: I know they're fucking Jesus, what a bunch of touchy
Speaker 2: up type fucker. I know. Well, I have to say
Speaker 2: I'm delighted that my daughter and her friends are fully
Speaker 2: aware that they are part of the worst generation of
Speaker 2: all time. It's not I look out.
Speaker 1: I'm sure if they were called on to do something spectacular,
Speaker 1: they probably rise to the occasion. And it's a ludicrous
Speaker 1: idea to say a whole generation of people is. But
Speaker 1: they are in the fashion and the popular culture right now.
Speaker 2: I'm like, fucking keep it.
Speaker 1: She Yeah, like when you go, you're gonna be nostalgic
Speaker 1: for that ship In twenty years. Yeah, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: you'll be recycling your shit like my shit, my seventies
Speaker 1: and eighties, nineties shit is being recycled like a motherfucker
Speaker 1: by these guys.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but they said, my daughter is teaching me
Speaker 2: about my own youth exactly, and that.
Speaker 1: Stuff's being recycled. Who's going to recycle what's going on now?
Speaker 2: No, but they might. I don't know. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: it's part of the agent process.
Speaker 1: I guess as you complain about the youth, But I
Speaker 1: don't think all the youth, just the ones that I
Speaker 1: hear about.
Speaker 2: It's just it's it's a weird, and it's largely our fault,
Speaker 2: as the people that gave birth to this generation. Maybe
Speaker 2: that we I was reading everyone gets well, it's also
Speaker 2: just that we, in our paranoia, we didn't allow our
Speaker 2: children any space to become individuals, to to to take risks,
Speaker 2: get hurt and cope with being hurt, you know. And
Speaker 2: because we, you know, we we protected them and sheltered
Speaker 2: them so much for no real reason, because it was
Speaker 2: like nouse.
Speaker 1: Statistically, it wasn't any more dangerous than any other time.
Speaker 2: No, in fact, probably it was much more dangerous. There
Speaker 2: were probably more incidents of harm to children back in
Speaker 2: the sixties right than we're in the nineties.
Speaker 1: Years and thou shit that was going on when I
Speaker 1: was a kid in the sexties, Jesus Christ, it was
Speaker 1: so awful shit going down.
Speaker 2: So we silo our kids away from the world, did
Speaker 2: everything for them. They never learned how to even navigate
Speaker 2: around the block. They never walked to school on their own,
Speaker 2: never went you know, never did like you can, never
Speaker 2: never sent to the store to buy bread. You know,
Speaker 2: all the things I was doing when I was six
Speaker 2: years old. You know, your alcoholic father. Yes, everyone should
Speaker 2: have an alcoholic Buy me some smokes. I wonder though, if.
Speaker 1: It's not just a product of aging that you just
Speaker 1: complain about the youth.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, because this this is sort of
Speaker 2: a sociological study that basically we there's a period of
Speaker 2: time in your life when you should be going out
Speaker 2: and individuating and taking risks, and our kids didn't. So
Speaker 2: we have kids who are ill equipped to handle risk
Speaker 2: or conflict, yes, or conflict. And then and then at
Speaker 2: the same time, we give them this technology that makes
Speaker 2: the feel under threat all the time. Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: allows them to destroy each other. Yeah. So we give
Speaker 2: them technology that is absolutely destructive and we give them
Speaker 2: no skills to cope with it. And it's a terrible mixture.
Speaker 2: So what's going to happen next that? What are they
Speaker 2: going to do with their kids if they have any kids? Well,
Speaker 2: their kids, well they won't There won't be many of them.
Speaker 2: I was said by they said, all what we're going through,
Speaker 2: that will end when your kids are old enough to
Speaker 2: hate you. Yeah, and that's coming. Yeah. I noticed that
Speaker 2: there are changes afoot.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, if I have one discernible skill, and
Speaker 1: I think this one is even doubtful, But if I
Speaker 1: have one discernible skill, it's being able to read the room.
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of going things are changing again, yeah,
Speaker 1: because they always do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean back in the in the eighties, right, right,
Speaker 2: it's a tricky time for me. I was pretty chemical. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in the eighties, this is when the first the term
Speaker 2: politically correct came about. Yes, that's right, remember that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And like us and the kids in the hall, we were,
Speaker 2: you know, people would always we would always have to
Speaker 2: be interviewed about you know, how do you feel about
Speaker 2: political correctness? That's right. I remember. I remember Bill Maher
Speaker 2: had that Politically and Correct show I used to go
Speaker 2: on time. And one of the greatest achievements of the
Speaker 2: political correct movement is that they managed to make Andrew
Speaker 2: Dice Clay a stadium performers as a as a reaction r.
Speaker 2: You know, they took they took a really mediocre Is
Speaker 2: that too generous a term?
Speaker 1: I think it's it's kind of yeah, it's it's nice,
Speaker 1: but you're a nice guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So a really mediocre comedian and turned
Speaker 2: him into a guy that can play like multiple nights
Speaker 2: at Madison Square guard he was huge. Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: you know, and that was that's how political correctness paid
Speaker 2: off in the eighties, you know, and we asked about it,
Speaker 2: and we'd always say, look, we believe in it. We
Speaker 2: believe that, you know, the political correctness is just about
Speaker 2: being aware of people and their history and their and
Speaker 2: it's been done to them and wanting to be sensitive
Speaker 2: to it. And then we're all in favor of that.
Speaker 2: But you know, but we don't think you can tell
Speaker 2: us that there's something that isn't funny or something you
Speaker 2: can't joke about.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the interesting thing about comedy is because it's
Speaker 1: completely subjective. Like my father used to say when we
Speaker 1: were watching Top of the Pulps in Britain when punk
Speaker 1: rock was going on, he would.
Speaker 2: Go, that's not music, that's just a noise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'll go, well, that's guy, what music is
Speaker 1: that it's a noise that it's arranged in certain different
Speaker 1: sequences that you find either pleasing or not pleasing.
Speaker 2: That's what it is.
Speaker 1: I didn't quite say that at the time because I
Speaker 1: was like fourteen, but I remember thinking, no.
Speaker 2: Dad, you didn't understand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but people say that about comedy all the time,
Speaker 1: to say that's not comedy, and you go, well, all
Speaker 1: these motherfuckers that are laughing disagree with you, so clearly
Speaker 1: it is a matter of opinion, what is funny and
Speaker 1: what's not. Yeah, And I think that that's kind of
Speaker 1: interesting because there is at this point it's really interesting
Speaker 1: that if you don't share the opinion of a group
Speaker 1: of people, they try and invalidate you by not having
Speaker 1: that opinion, which I don't understand. Yes, it's like it's
Speaker 1: like in a political debate, you know, in the political arena,
Speaker 1: if you take the most contentious political stance, well, all
Speaker 1: these people are wrong.
Speaker 2: Well, all these people think you're wrong.
Speaker 1: So perhaps the job is not trying to make these
Speaker 1: people think like you, but create a society where everyone
Speaker 1: can think different things, yes, and still be treated yes, decency.
Speaker 2: And that seemed like that seemed like that was the
Speaker 2: target when we were young. I seem to remember it
Speaker 2: being the thrust of it that we were working towards.
Speaker 2: As I said, I felt like we were trying to
Speaker 2: dissolve the definitions that separated people into different categories, right,
Speaker 2: you know, we were trying to dissolve the gender differences
Speaker 2: and the racial differences exactly, and so that they would
Speaker 2: not be a consideration categorizing people based on an instant decision,
Speaker 2: you know, or large groups of people. Yeah, whereas and
Speaker 2: now it feels like the goal is to create narrower
Speaker 2: and narrower definitions for different sections of humanity. It's like
Speaker 2: everyone's defining themselves these very narrow contexts and which is
Speaker 2: which is totally fine.
Speaker 1: I think as long as you don't try and invalidate
Speaker 1: everyone else who isn't like you.
Speaker 2: Would you want to live forever? I don't know. I
Speaker 2: used to. I used to really want to live forever
Speaker 2: because I wanted I didn't want to miss anything. I
Speaker 2: didn't want like I really wanted I want to Will
Speaker 2: you be missing death? Then? I mean that might be
Speaker 2: the best part. I know, Well that's what I'm starting
Speaker 2: to think. Yes, But I used to always just want to,
Speaker 2: you know, I want to know what's because I kept
Speaker 2: I was very obsessed with science and technology, and I
Speaker 2: wanted to see what was coming next, what cool things
Speaker 2: are going to happen? And and I was an atheist.
Speaker 2: So you're not anymore, Well I'm still an atheist, sure,
Speaker 2: but but but but no, I'm an ath I'm an atheist,
Speaker 2: but I'm no longer as steadfastly a materialist.
Speaker 1: Okay, see, I'm no longer an atheist. I I was
Speaker 1: at sand point an atheist, and I'm like, it's far
Speaker 1: too arrogant, that's to take it. It is an unscientific,
Speaker 1: ludicrous position to take.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: For my for I feel like if you say this
Speaker 1: is the definitive, there is definitively no deity.
Speaker 2: It's like based on law. But that isn't the definition
Speaker 2: of an atheist. What is it that the definition of
Speaker 2: an atheist is I don't believe there's a god. Not
Speaker 2: that I know there's a there is, isn't. I don't
Speaker 2: believe there's a god. Yeah, I don't have a belief
Speaker 2: that there is a god, right, And a theist is
Speaker 2: someone who does believe there's a Well, I'm a theist. Like,
Speaker 2: but a theist can't prove there is a god or
Speaker 2: is it a god? I can't prove it at all,
Speaker 2: and either can an atheist, but one one believes one doesn't, right,
Speaker 2: So like the true definition. That's why I always say
Speaker 2: agnostic doesn't mean anything, right, because it's really just you know,
Speaker 2: for people that hope they can it'll be a.
Speaker 1: It's in your bad Yeah, gnostic does me, I mean
Speaker 1: I means without.
Speaker 2: Gnostic means knowledge, So it means without knowledge. So it's quiet.
Speaker 1: It's fair to say I am without knowledge, isn't it?
Speaker 2: Yes, But being a theist it has nothing to do
Speaker 2: with knowledge. It is to do with belief. There's no
Speaker 2: knowledge in being a theist.
Speaker 1: Well, unless you define what you see as evidence, you
Speaker 1: have to decide whatever. If you go, well, you know
Speaker 1: the fact that you know what reasons my suspicions that
Speaker 1: it might be a god is when I see a
Speaker 1: dog using a crosswalk, I think there may be more to.
Speaker 2: This, and I thought, but evidence isn't proof, and it's not.
Speaker 2: That's true. That is not proof. I could not prove it.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, did you see Miracle in
Speaker 1: thirty fourth Street when they had to prove Santa was real?
Speaker 2: Yes? Did they I can't remember at the end of
Speaker 2: that movie. Did they prove Santa? They? Well, they didn't, right,
Speaker 2: but the movie tells you he's real. But they they
Speaker 2: through a legal, legal trickery, right, Yeah, they brought in
Speaker 2: all the mail from the US post Office and that
Speaker 2: proved Santapais And the judge said, well, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to argue with the United States, right, and then Santa's yeah, Well, Okay,
Speaker 2: so that's that's not bad. Here's what I thought. I've
Speaker 2: become quite interested recently in Renee Descartes. Yes, who, as
Speaker 2: you know, is the I would say, arguably the father
Speaker 2: of modern philosophical thought. Right, yeah, yeah, all right. So
Speaker 2: his famous thing is about I think, therefore I am.
Speaker 1: But what but leading up to it, of course, the
Speaker 1: reason why he gets to that point is he wants
Speaker 1: to use reason to prove the existence of God, or
Speaker 1: approach the existence of God using reason instead of revelation,
Speaker 1: so using basically belief. Right, So he says, Okay, what
Speaker 1: I'll do is I'll begin by doubting everything.
Speaker 2: I doubt everything. So he doubts everything.
Speaker 1: And so if you doubt everything, including the existence of God,
Speaker 1: I doubt all that, the existence of myself, existence of everything.
Speaker 2: I doubt everything. The only thing that is impossible to
Speaker 2: doubt is that you are doubting. And if you're doubting,
Speaker 2: that is cognitive. That's a decision. You are thinking yes.
Speaker 2: And if you are thinking, you exist cognito ergo sum
Speaker 2: I think therefore I am, and I think, Oh, that's
Speaker 2: quite a good way of going about it. And he
Speaker 2: approaching the existence of God talking about the proofs of
Speaker 2: the existence of God. One which I found fascinating is
Speaker 2: that all societies have an appetite, even atheists have an
Speaker 2: appetite for God. Even if you dismiss the existence of God,
Speaker 2: you still discuss it.
Speaker 1: Right, there is an appetite for it. And for every
Speaker 1: appetite there is a satiation of an appetite for lust.
Speaker 2: There is sex for hunger, there is food for you know.
Speaker 1: So in the natural scheme of things he used reason
Speaker 1: is the appetite, the desire for the existence of God
Speaker 1: is a proof of the existence of God.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I would I reject, really need to cut
Speaker 2: I do. That's but in part I think it's an
Speaker 2: appetite for meaning, not an appetite for God discussed.
Speaker 1: Well, then it's semantics, Meaning and God are the same thing.
Speaker 2: No they aren't.
Speaker 1: Oh I think so. No, God is just one form
Speaker 1: of meaning. No, God is a huge word God. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: is God angry Santo in a cloud? Don't be absurd?
Speaker 2: Is God?
Speaker 1: You know the definition of intelligent design or something beyond
Speaker 1: the pale? Then I think, yes.
Speaker 2: Well, here's the view I came to over years was
Speaker 2: that through evolution, yes, our brains one of the few
Speaker 2: advantages we have from an evolutionary standpoint was that we
Speaker 2: develop a brain that could, uh could codify the world
Speaker 2: in terms of meanings, right, and that eventually that also
Speaker 2: that gradually led to language and communities and civilizations and societies.
Speaker 2: But the but it's that initial state of a brain
Speaker 2: that gives meaning to things, a brain that that that
Speaker 2: picks up a rock and breaks it and goes, hmm,
Speaker 2: that's not just That's not just a broken rock right now,
Speaker 2: that's a tool or a weapon that a sharp edge.
Speaker 2: And we were able to, you know, uh, sort of
Speaker 2: rise above our limitations because we're frail animals with like
Speaker 2: we're shitting, We can't run fast, our teeth are useless,
Speaker 2: we have no claws, opposable thumbs though, yeah the good
Speaker 2: but yeah, but not so good against a tiger, you know,
Speaker 2: like ah, yeah. So that's how we survived as a
Speaker 2: species was by giving meaning to objects and like like,
Speaker 2: for example, this is a table not because of anything
Speaker 2: intrinsic about it. It's only a table because we say
Speaker 2: it's a table and agree it's a table. A cat
Speaker 2: doesn't know it's a table, so a cat will sleep
Speaker 2: on it, right, you know, So we have a brain
Speaker 2: that is constantly encoding everything around us in terms of meaning.
Speaker 2: So that's good, yes, But it also means that at
Speaker 2: some point you go, oh, I'm going to die. Yes,
Speaker 2: how do I how do I give meaning to that?
Speaker 2: But I don't think it's about death. Well, I think
Speaker 2: it is. I think it is for me.
Speaker 1: For me, it's though, I'm quite happy to admit that
Speaker 1: with the end of life there is nothing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but as associated as a society, as a species,
Speaker 2: yes we have we don't do that. And even that
Speaker 2: is you're you're you're ascribing a kind of meaning to
Speaker 2: death as well. Well, it's both, that's true, yea. And
Speaker 2: my thought was all right, so the human brain is
Speaker 2: incapable of observing anything without giving it meaning. Good, right,
Speaker 2: I like where you go? So I would say, even
Speaker 2: to other atheists, said, so, even as an atheist, you're
Speaker 2: going to adopt some system of meaning, and it may
Speaker 2: be just as ludicrous and unfounded as any religious system
Speaker 2: of meaning. Right, you know, like you may decide that
Speaker 2: you're gonna, you're gonna your meaning comes from having.
Speaker 1: Children, or your meaning comes from rejecting religion, which is
Speaker 1: not necessarily good or meaning or art or art or something.
Speaker 2: You know, like a lot of artists who are atheists say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I create my art and that's where my
Speaker 2: meaning comes from, right, And I would say to them, well,
Speaker 2: that's stupid, because if we're correct, you're going to die
Speaker 2: and all the things you've created will be immediately meaningless
Speaker 2: to you, you know, because if we die and it ends,
Speaker 2: then everything is meaningless. And so you just have to
Speaker 2: kind of accept that if that's the reality.
Speaker 1: If time is linear, you're correct. But if time is
Speaker 1: not linear, I mean, time is only a construct of
Speaker 1: humans trying to give meaning to yes, the in the
Speaker 1: area in which they Well, so if time is not lenear, yes, man,
Speaker 1: it's all, which it probably isn't. I would imagine it's
Speaker 1: probably not as simple as we think.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. Is where I'm heading to is
Speaker 2: that that was the belief I had until over the
Speaker 2: last less than ten years. Okay, And here's the and
Speaker 2: my route to this came through looking at the UFO phenomena. Ah,
Speaker 2: you know, which I don't know if you know this,
Speaker 2: but I actually do a podcast about UFOs now, but
Speaker 2: it yeah, and it came up basically I started you know,
Speaker 2: It's something I was always interested in, right, I would
Speaker 2: take it sort of seriously when something really crazy would
Speaker 2: happen then and that would sort of buy the stories
Speaker 2: and go, oh, well, I'll ignore it for now. Right
Speaker 2: and then, but like about ten years ago, you know,
Speaker 2: sort of, I saw a documentary that was so compelling
Speaker 2: that it got me thinking I really should look at
Speaker 2: this a little closer, right, And that was a movie
Speaker 2: called Out of the Blue by James Fox, and it
Speaker 2: was just went through the history of modern UFO phenomena
Speaker 2: and was interviewing people who had had, you know, really
Speaker 2: credible people who had had really amazing encounters and a
Speaker 2: lot of real data. There's a lot of real data
Speaker 2: on it. And I thought, all right, I got to
Speaker 2: keep I got to keep an open mind about this.
Speaker 2: And like many people who get into that subject, eventually
Speaker 2: you wind up in a place where you're realizing that
Speaker 2: a lot of the phenomena is about consciousness and about
Speaker 2: how it interacts with consciousness. And then you start looking at, well,
Speaker 2: how does consciousness work? And then you wind up getting
Speaker 2: into things like well, looking at things like near death
Speaker 2: experiences and you and what is death and taking that seriously.
Speaker 2: So once you open this aperture of what you're willing
Speaker 2: to look at. All the things you've been told are
Speaker 2: silly and unscientific, but they keep happening anyway, and one
Speaker 2: of them, you know, is like, then, actually, I just
Speaker 2: watched this great documentary on YouTube called Rethinking Death from
Speaker 2: New York University Hospital a Parnia Lab. And these are
Speaker 2: really mainstream medical people who have come a long way
Speaker 2: from even just a few years ago where they're not
Speaker 2: dismissing near death experiences. In fact, they're saying that right
Speaker 2: now because we've extended the length of time that we
Speaker 2: can bring someone back after they've died, like over an hour,
Speaker 2: right Like, people are dead for over an hour and
Speaker 2: they're being revived and having these stories of experiences. And
Speaker 2: they've even changed the term from near death experience to
Speaker 2: recalled experience of death because they're saying these people weren't
Speaker 2: near dead, they were seriously dead, almost completely dead. Yes.
Speaker 2: For the field, yes, And knowing that from people who
Speaker 2: have had encounters with with UFOs and that so much
Speaker 2: of it is is an encounter that isn't about the
Speaker 2: material world, then I'm no longer a materialist because there's
Speaker 2: just too much evidence.
Speaker 1: See, I don't think that ties with atheism at all,
Speaker 1: because I feel like if you say, if your definition
Speaker 1: is atheism and theism is a theist is someone who
Speaker 1: believes in a God, and an atheist to someone who's
Speaker 1: just not believing a God.
Speaker 2: Then what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to dismiss what you're saying, but what
Speaker 1: I take from that is to not believe is an
Speaker 1: unscientific stance because it shuts down the avenue of exploration.
Speaker 1: I don't you know, if you say I don't believe
Speaker 1: in a God, I find that too didactic and non scientific.
Speaker 1: If I can say I believe in a God, which
Speaker 1: I have absolutely no idea what that is, but I
Speaker 1: believe more than I don't believe.
Speaker 2: But how can one belief be more didactic than the other?
Speaker 2: I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1: If you take the idea of saying Augustine of Hippo,
Speaker 1: an early theologian and Christian Church right who said, trying
Speaker 1: to understand the mind of God is like trying to
Speaker 1: pour the ocean into a cup. If you take the
Speaker 1: mortal and you know human limitations of the cognitive process
Speaker 1: of human beings. If we are talking about a deity
Speaker 1: or a thrust or something which is bigger than humanity.
Speaker 1: Then it would be you can't get something that big
Speaker 1: into something that small. It won't work. It's just just
Speaker 1: doesn't work. So all you're saying is I believe that
Speaker 1: there is something there. Do I believe it's angry Santo
Speaker 1: on a cloud or you know, baby Jesus with swaddling clothes.
Speaker 2: I don't go with any of that.
Speaker 1: But there are aspects of all religions which I find
Speaker 1: in the same way you find about the UFO thing.
Speaker 1: I go, I'm going to take this a little more
Speaker 1: seriously because actually there's very very clever people who are
Speaker 1: not atheists, and that's kind of what drew me in.
Speaker 2: And so I mean, you take C. S.
Speaker 1: Lewis or Socrates or Albert Einstein or.
Speaker 2: There's quite a lot of ready the cards. You know.
Speaker 1: You know, there are people who are immensely clever and
Speaker 1: deep thinkers who steer the other way. And I'm in
Speaker 1: more claim to do that. So I don't see any.
Speaker 2: View argument between the UFO interest and the interest in
Speaker 2: But I don't think atheism in anyways ever shut down
Speaker 2: me from examining the world in fact, in the world.
Speaker 2: I mean talking about exactly the existence of a deity
Speaker 2: beyond or over deity. Yeah, but I'm saying I I
Speaker 2: can be open to the idea that there is a
Speaker 2: deeper reality without it necessarily being connected to a God. Well,
Speaker 2: I think you have to define what God is? You know,
Speaker 2: is a God? What is God? And at that point,
Speaker 2: you know, you know it's because you know, I tend
Speaker 2: to you know, I guess I you know, I'll go
Speaker 2: with Bertrand Russell over excellent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but atheist thinker, Yeah, a great atheist thinker, no doubt.
Speaker 1: But also at the same time you're working alongside C. S. Lewis,
Speaker 1: who was a great theist thinker, but the theists also,
Speaker 1: and the principal mathematica from Bertrand Russell very good. But
Speaker 1: is it the Narnia Chronicles. No, it's not, it's not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fascinating. And you know what I do like is this.
Speaker 1: You're my friend and we can be on wildly opposing
Speaker 1: ends of this argument and enjoy the argument.
Speaker 2: Yeah. C. S. Lewis, H. G.
Speaker 1: Wells, wildly opposing ends of the argument. Friends, Yes, people
Speaker 1: now wildly opposing ends of an argument of belief.
Speaker 2: God seem to be friends.
Speaker 1: I don't understand it, I know, which is sad because
Speaker 1: how you fucking learned stuff?
Speaker 2: There's nothing less interesting than agreement. Sadly, I agree, you've
Speaker 2: painted me into the corner. Yeah, but I mean I
Speaker 2: used to always you know, tell my kids, I said,
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I said, the only arguments you
Speaker 2: you learn from are the ones you lose, right, you know,
Speaker 2: like winning, I've learned a lot today, but like winning
Speaker 2: an argument is is about winning an argument, I know
Speaker 2: nothing more than I knew before, right, and also winning it.
Speaker 2: It's just a ludicrous idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when an argument, When an argument, that's like winning
Speaker 1: a relationship.
Speaker 2: Well, what the hell is that? I remember reading like
Speaker 2: Plato as a kid, right, and hilarious, But it was
Speaker 2: like realizing their conversations in in the dialectics Yep, sounded
Speaker 2: exactly like me and my friends hanging out. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think that's the appeal is And I'm going, it's the
Speaker 2: same thinking, the same arguments, the same thoughts, the same interactions,
Speaker 2: And I'm going, that's just how it's going to be forever.
Speaker 2: That's just what it is to be human. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: it's just going to be that way. Forever, and like
Speaker 2: you said, meaning the desire for meaning. Yeah, and and
Speaker 2: I believe, I mean, my belief still is that the
Speaker 2: human brain is incapable of perceiving meaninglessness unless you're suffering
Speaker 2: a severe brain damage or you are psychotic. And people
Speaker 2: who can perceive meaninglessness generally will either commit murder or suicide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does sound like a despairing place to be.
Speaker 2: And it's and it's something that ninety nine point the
Speaker 2: thousand nine percent of the population are incapable of anyway, right,
Speaker 2: we're incapable of it. Like I can't look at a
Speaker 2: table and not see a table. I can't do it.
Speaker 2: You know, you can drink past that, Oh I have.
Speaker 1: Well, it's been a pleasure and will continue to be
Speaker 1: a pleasure for as long as we are able to
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 2: Dave, Yes, Oh my god, it's so lovely running into you.
Speaker 2: It's great running to you. And let's let's do it again.
Speaker 2: And next time, let's talk more about God. Okay, No,
Speaker 2: let's talk less about God and more about drugs. Oh okay,
Speaker 2: all right, or maybe just do the same again. Yeah, psychedelics,
Speaker 2: I'll talk Oh man, I do not care for them. No, no,
Speaker 2: I never like psychedelics.
Speaker 1: Oh Jesus, worst time in my life. I took acid
Speaker 1: like thirty something times just to make sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, man, it was bad. It was bad from
Speaker 2: the first one again. Yeah, I like mushrooms. I would
Speaker 2: have took mushrooms once because I hated them so much.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, hated mushrooms. Do you still do the psyches? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but there I'm Are you tripping right now? No,
Speaker 2: I'm actually having trouble getting psychedelics to work right now.
Speaker 2: I've tried to d MT twice and couldn't get it
Speaker 2: into work. Well, of course, we've run out of time.
Speaker 2: Listeners