1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:02,239 Speaker 1: The volume. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,279 Speaker 2: Today's show is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 2: American Beverage. If you think about some of the most 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: iconic drinks in the country, the ones you grab a barbecue, 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: the ones you raised to celebrate your team, that have 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: been part of your story for decades, Coke, Doctor, Pepper, Pepsi, 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 2: there's something people don't always think about. The companies behind 8 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: those brands are still making their drinks right here in 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: the US. While there's a lot of talk about bringing 10 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: manufacturing back, America's beverage companies never left their American companies, 11 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: making American products with American workers in America's hometown. So 12 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy five thousand men and women across 13 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: all fifty states, real jobs, good paying jobs, the kind 14 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 2: of jobs you can raise a family on. So more 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: than one hundred years, those brands have been part of 16 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: everyday lives and they're still here, still investing, still operating 17 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: in communities around the country. So if you care about 18 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: strong old economies and companies that walk the walk, check 19 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: out the good work and what they're doing it. We 20 00:00:52,880 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: deliver for America dot Org. Well, like the rest of you, 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: I love a good sports documentary, and when I heard 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: there was a doc on Amazon Prime about the ABA, 23 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: for many reasons, I was fascinated. It's called soul Power, 24 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: the Legends of the ABA. So I've said many times 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: on my show The Herd ten times, fifteen times. The 26 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 2: first basketball player I fell in love with was Julius Irving. 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 2: But I was born in nineteen sixty four, as Julius 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: now joins us, and I didn't watch sports until nineteen 29 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: seventy two. I remember it clearly. On a black and 30 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 2: white TV, Julius, I watched the Miami Dolphins at the 31 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: time Washington Redskins Super Bowl. Dolphins won fourteen to seven. 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: It was about that time. You know, I'm six years old, 33 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: seven years old, I'm getting into sports. So my mom 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: bought me a subscription to Sports Illustrated so I could 35 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: watch baseball as the national pastime on TV. College football. 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: College basketball was big, But like anything else in life, 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: the one thing I couldn't get was the ABA. So 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: I had to rely on the Sporting News, which actually 39 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: did ABA guides, and Sports Illustrated twice put you on 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: the cover. I remember this. So I'm in my formative 41 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 2: years and I'm like, Who's doctor J. Nobody's called doctor J. 42 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 2: So because I didn't get you didn't have a TV contract, 43 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: because I didn't get ABA games. As a Seattle kid, 44 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: my parents bought me an ABA ball, So it's fascinating 45 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: to me. So let's go back. And I've always felt 46 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: that the NBA should include ABA numbers and stats. And 47 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: the reason I do is something I think you'll believe 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: in that I didn't know this about the ABA, Julius. 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: I knew about the Nuggets and the Spurs. I knew 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 2: about you, I knew about how many good players there were. 51 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: I did not know much about the exhibition games with 52 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: the NBA, in which the ABA teams clabbered them regularly. 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: So let so let's let's talk. Let's let's start with that. 54 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: The NBA in the seventies was considered a little white 55 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: and overcoached, and the ABA was more stylistic. It was 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: more fun, it was more fashionable, it was a little 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: rowdy when you matched up against those NBA teams. Was 58 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: there a chip on you on your league's shoulder, facing 59 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: like the adult the parent league that you knew in 60 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: many instances you were superior to. 61 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I played in two of those games. 62 00:03:54,320 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: And ABA versus NBA, and the excitement surrounding it was 63 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: unbelievable because it was just the exhibition season and you know, 64 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: we had training camp, play exhibition games, and then play 65 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 3: the regular season, so everyone always look forward to the 66 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 3: regular season in the playoffs, and that was the big 67 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: deal with these exhibition games against the NBA. You know, 68 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 3: became a big deal more so for the ABA than 69 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: the NBA because the ABA was the league that was 70 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: trying to establish itself, also trying to prove it itself 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 3: worthy and you know, wanted to have some bragging rights. 72 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 3: So you beat an NBA team, Uh, they're going to 73 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 3: make excuses. They're going to say, well, our guys aren't 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 3: in shape and it's only it's only a practice game 75 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 3: or whatever. But you know, the ABA guys who were 76 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 3: probably younger and more excitable, kind of like the young 77 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 3: NBA players are now, you know, looking forward to having 78 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: the chip on their shoulder and all of that good stuff. 79 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 3: So so so winning those games, especially if you're playing 80 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 3: on your on your home court, because the city that 81 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 3: you're in, you know, would always stick a chest out 82 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 3: a little bit and say, hey, yeah, you know, you know, 83 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: we knock those guys off, and you know, the league's 84 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: been around longer, and you know, those names are known. 85 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: People know Oscar Robinson's name, Clyde Frasier, Wilt Chamberlain, you 86 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 3: know west Unsel, They know those guys' names, and you 87 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: know we took them down. Those are the same guys. 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 3: You know what, guys, if they cut, they bleed just 89 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: like we do. Elbow they've been over, they act like 90 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 3: they're hurt, just like. 91 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: We do or whatever. So you know, we're all human beings. 92 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: And because you wear a title and you're you're you 93 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: wear a moniker or whatever, that's not gonna make you different. 94 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: That's gonna necessarily make you greater. 95 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: Uh So, so it was a good confidence boosted for us, 96 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 3: and you know a lot of people who went to 97 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: those games alive became believers. And also you know that 98 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: served to feed the cause. And the cause was you know, 99 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 3: we had seen the AFL and the NFL, you know, 100 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: Merchant some one league, so we had witnessed that, and 101 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 3: globally the same type of thing was happening. It was 102 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: happening in soccer, and it was happening in other sports 103 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 3: that have played universally, not necessarily in the United States. 104 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 3: So that became a mission for the ownership the players. 105 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: You know, my opinion was, I came out of school 106 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: after my junior year. I had played two varsity seasons 107 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 3: and our team had been invited to the n I 108 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 3: t Even though our record was good enough to be 109 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: invited to the NCAA tournament, we weren't. 110 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: And it felt like we were snubbed. 111 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 3: And after that, after my junior year, I got approached 112 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: by an agent, and the numbers that they started talking about, 113 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 3: you know, were comparable to the best player in the NBA, 114 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: and they said, this is going to go away. 115 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, if the lead folds, it's going to go away. 116 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 3: And if the NBA continues to you know, maybe put 117 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 3: you out of business or you know, maintains a superiority. 118 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: Complex, then those numbers are going to go away. 119 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: And you know, one hundred thousand is going to turn 120 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 3: into twenty five, thirty thousand or whatever. 121 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: So you know, I took the deal. I took the deal. 122 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 3: It cost me a lot because I was I had 123 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: to forego being an Olympian and I had played in 124 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: the Olympic Development program and you know, at my size 125 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 3: and with my game, I was the leading scorer and 126 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: rebounder in the Olympic Development program. We went over to Russia, 127 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: Poland and Finland and played and you know, I was 128 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: a shoe to make the team. But that that era 129 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: of the representing your country and playing for the United 130 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 3: States of America in nineteen seventy seventy one seventy two 131 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: was not the most popular thing to do. 132 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: It's not like we were just dying to do it. 133 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: So I chose. I chose the pro pro route. 134 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 3: And at that time, you know, this is twenty years 135 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 3: before pros were allowed to play in the Olympics, so 136 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 3: you had to be an amateur to play. And you know, 137 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: sorry about you know, getting off the subject, but I'm 138 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: just kind of this sale space is very very important 139 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 3: in terms of the ABA story, in the ABA Hockey series, 140 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: because there's so much to it beyond just basketball. 141 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: You know, there's the culture you know that we have. 142 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: There's the racial tension you know that was evident, and 143 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 3: and then there's you know, just the global situation where 144 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 3: you know, we're still learning things and there are a 145 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 3: lot of things that have gone on for hundreds of 146 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: years that haven't been fixed yet. So who's going to 147 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: fix this. Who's going to fix this? So basketball couldn't 148 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: be the most important thing for me in my life, 149 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: but it was. 150 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: It was. It was the path that I needed to take. Yeah. 151 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's interesting because I grew up in the seventies. 152 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: You know, the NBA was not a rich league in 153 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,119 Speaker 2: the seventies. In fact, I can remember the NBA Finals 154 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: being on tape delay after the eleven o'clock news and 155 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: young fans now that can watch every game every night, 156 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: So I remember NBA teams at that time. Julius traveled 157 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: on commercial first flight out of town, out of sea, traveled, 158 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: so what right, that's right? So what was travel like? Hotels? 159 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: Travel in the ABA, which was financially in a tougher 160 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: spot than even the NBA in the early seventh. 161 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, so so you know, we didn't have the uh, 162 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 3: top notch hotels. 163 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: We had what was available to us. We had roommates. 164 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: You know, everybody had to pick a roommate, so those 165 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 3: single rooms. I didn't experience a single room until I 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 3: got in the NBA and I was in Philadelphia and 167 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 3: I didn't want a single room. Actually, Steve Mixed was 168 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 3: my roommate for five seasons and that was my boy, 169 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 3: and I learned a lot from him and he learned 170 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 3: a lot from me. So yeah, the accommodation piece, I 171 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 3: don't know, you know, if you if your college team, 172 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 3: you know, was in the Big ten or maybe you 173 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 3: know out there in the Pac twelve or whatever, you know, 174 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 3: maybe the travel was a little better, maybe the hotel 175 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 3: accommodations were a little better, you know. But you know, 176 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 3: I played in with the Minute Menu formally the UMass 177 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: red Men, and we were in the Yankee Conference, right, 178 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 3: So our travel, our travel with was a lot bout bus. 179 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: I mean we bussed over to Buffalo, and we bussed 180 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 3: down to Penn Pennsylvania to play Penn and then all 181 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 3: throughout New England we played Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, you know, 182 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: all of those schools. 183 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: And you were built for it, and we took buses. 184 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: So the move to the ABA was actually a step 185 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 3: up in terms of traveling and in terms of hotel accommodation. 186 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: So I'm from Seattle. So another player who was groundbreaking 187 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: was Spencer Haywood. So I yeah, so you know, I 188 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: grew up not only with the downtown Freddie Brown, DJ, 189 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: Gus Williams, Jack Sikmasonics. I grew up with Spencer Haywood, 190 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: John Brisker, the young teams. And I tell people this 191 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: because for young fans the ABA. This is why I 192 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: supported the live tour to the PGA. My takeaway is, folks, 193 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: watch what Lyft and Uber did the taxis you need 194 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 2: disruptors in society, and the ABA was really the one 195 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: of the first disruptors in sports in this country. And 196 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: when I mean, you were a nine time All Star, 197 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: five in the NBA. Four in the ABA, you were 198 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: a three time, you were a four. 199 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: Times, sixteen time All Star, so you were six. 200 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 3: I was an All Star every season, but in terms 201 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 3: of all pro that was that was five in the 202 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: NBA and four first team in Yeah, I already played 203 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: there five years, so I was second team the other year. 204 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: So in the history of American basketball, professional basketball, there's 205 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: a real argument that the most unrewarded overlooked player is you. 206 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: That you were. You spent probably forty percent of your 207 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: best days. You know, you're in your athletic prime in 208 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 2: the ABA. Have you ever thought about I mean, do 209 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 2: you regret that decision? Have you ever thought? Man? Because 210 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: the Olympics back in seventy two wasn't what they are now. 211 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: We watched for gymnastics, we watched for a lot of things. 212 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: The Dream Team kind of made the Olympic basketball. It's 213 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: a showcase. But when I look at you, I think 214 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 2: of all the great players, you probably have been overlooked 215 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: more than any great player, because I remember in the 216 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: seventies turning on the TV I grew up the Pacific 217 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: Northwest and watching you against the Blazers and thinking what 218 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: am I watching? Have you ever thought about that? Have 219 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: you ever had regrets about your journey? 220 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 3: It's an excellent question, and I can'd of stand on 221 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: the ground that the journey that I took, the path 222 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: that I took, made who I am today. You know, 223 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 3: never wan to ego trip and feel like I deserve 224 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 3: more than I've received. I'm more sensitive to the guys 225 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 3: who didn't know recognition. I at least get some recognition. 226 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: I was on eight covers of Sports Illustrated and multiple 227 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 3: colors of Sports Magazine, and uh, you know, participated in 228 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: a lot of charitable endeavors which led to endorsements. 229 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, shooting Converse. 230 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: Yeah my shoe deal with Converse, and it's balding and 231 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 3: you know, my invitation to become a Coca Cola butler 232 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: with Bruce Llewellen, and so so there were things that happened. 233 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: I've had a good life. I've had had a very 234 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 3: very good life. And could it be better. 235 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. It could be different, It could be different. 236 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: But my my my empathy goes, you know, to the 237 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: guys who were passed on, don't have the recognition their families, 238 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 3: they don't have the financial support, you know of pensions 239 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 3: and and gifting and uh so that the sort of 240 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 3: things that are more important than my ego. And I 241 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: think that my statistics can be matched with anybody's. I mean, 242 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 3: you know, the guys who came after me and played 243 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: better in the NBA than they played in the ABA, 244 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: And my stats in the ABA were probably a little 245 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 3: better than the NBA. But I was playing with a 246 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: different team. I came my whole career with the Philadelphia 247 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 3: seventy six ers. The first day I got there, the 248 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 3: general manager came in and said, look, we got George 249 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: McGinnis here, we got Doug Collins or whatever, so we 250 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 3: don't need you to score thirty points a game. And 251 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: I've never experienced that where I've gone, and the coaches 252 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 3: told me to tone it down, or general manager I 253 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: said tone it down. And so they were bursts in which, 254 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: you know, the doctor j of the ABA came out. 255 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 3: But most of the time it was as you said 256 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: about the NBA, you know, slow down, structure, structure, playing, 257 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,479 Speaker 3: playing a certain type of game. So I was encouraged 258 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: to play that type of game, although inside of me, 259 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: you know, there was always that ability to do more. 260 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: And who who asked an athlete to do less? 261 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: Nobody? It's kind of crazy. 262 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because there's so much Your journey is 263 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: fascinating and and uh, the aforementioned Philadelphia seventy six ers 264 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: is one of the first teams I loved. And they 265 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: had Steve mix a b A A B A, George 266 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: McGinnis a B A, Bobby Jones a B A. It 267 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 2: was an ABA All Star Jones, Calill Jones. So essentially 268 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: that seventy six ers team was an ABA team. Winning 269 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: the NBA Finals, was it not? 270 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely going and losing to Portland and winning ultimately in 271 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: eighty three against the Lakers. We had met much ABA 272 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 3: representation there, and plus you know, the guys who didn't 273 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: get the ABA experience. I always, you know, taught them 274 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: things that I brought over from the ABA, you know, 275 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 3: And I used to tell Andrew Tony. I'd say, you know, 276 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 3: George Gervin came in my second year in Virginia and 277 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 3: the practice was over and he wanted to go home, 278 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 3: and I was like, gee, we got work to do. 279 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: You're over here over time. 280 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: So we would stay in the gym and it was 281 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 3: at this Jewish community center. We would stay in the 282 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 3: gym and we played one on one and uh, you know, 283 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 3: maybe put in the extra hour, extra hour and a 284 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: half and go home exhausted. And when Andrew Toni came in, 285 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 3: it was the same thing with him. I said, look, 286 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: you know you're gonna be my new iceman, Gervon, because 287 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 3: because you're really good, and I could use the work myself, 288 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 3: so you know, I would keep him afterwards. And that 289 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: was something that Ray Scott showed me in the ABA about, 290 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: you know, stand after putting in the extra time and 291 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: you know, really the other things about taking care of 292 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: yourself and then the other things about just some fundamental 293 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: things that you need to do during the course of 294 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: the game. You don't have to always jump as high 295 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 3: as you possibly can. And you see it in today's 296 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: game where guys they step back and shoot set shots. 297 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 298 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: Whatever, So the jump shot, you know, is a little 299 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: bit overstated because you know, the true jump shot where 300 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: you go to your pinnacle and your peak and then 301 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: you let it go, you don't have to do it, 302 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: actually takes more energy and it's actually a risk reward 303 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 3: shot because you probably, if you probably would shoot less 304 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 3: of a percentage from shooting that way as opposed to 305 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: stepping back and shooting set shot. 306 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: Today's show brought to you by our presenting sponsor, hard 307 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: Rock Bet Florida sportsbook March is here. 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Yeah, 340 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I could certainly make the argument that you 341 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: came into the NBA at the perfect time that they 342 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 2: needed a face. It was not a three ball league 343 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: you were. There was no dominant team, so the league 344 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: was wide open for Julius Irving. And you know this, 345 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: it's the duality of life. You could look at it 346 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: and go, man, I wish I was in the NBA. 347 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: But the true is it was overcoached, it didn't have 348 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: a great TV contract, and there was so much mystery 349 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: around you. By the time you entered the NBA. You 350 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: were a star of the first day in the NBA. 351 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: I remember it. I mean I remember the news stories 352 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 2: about the merger. Did you know the merger was coming 353 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: or did you get a phone call? 354 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 3: Well, when I was negotiating my contract three years earlier, 355 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 3: two years earlier, the agent kept saying that, you know, 356 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 3: there would be a merger between the two leagues. So 357 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 3: that was that was in nineteen seventy one when I 358 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 3: signed with the Potatus question, it was five years before 359 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: the mergered. They said in two or three years it 360 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: would happen. To two years came, three years came, and 361 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: it didn't happen. Right, it didn't happen. It happened in 362 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: year five. And I was a part of the conversation, 363 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 3: you know, the players Association. 364 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: I was involved. 365 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 3: And then we had an only owners group and those 366 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 3: conversations went back and forth and they were very intense, 367 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: and it didn't look like there was going to be 368 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 3: a merger. And then the ownership of the Nets, which 369 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: was Ron Bow, and the ownership of the Denver Nuggets, 370 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: which was called Sheer Believe, they applied for membership into 371 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 3: the NBA. So this comes out in our document series, 372 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 3: comes out in the story, and they were just like, 373 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: screw everybody else, We're gonna get our franchises then, because 374 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: the NBA is into expansion and they're much better at 375 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 3: expanding one or two teams in a year rather than 376 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 3: the whole kitten kboodle and all health brocluse because we said, well, 377 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 3: what about the other teams and what about the jobs, 378 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 3: and what about the pensions and so on of s 379 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: what what's going to happen? 380 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was really a scary time. 381 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 3: And uh when back to the drawing board, and as 382 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 3: it turned out, h two teams did not make it. 383 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 3: The five teams did. 384 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: Yep, and so the other way around, and and the 385 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: teams that made it, Denver, San Antonio were very good, immedia. 386 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 2: Denver won their division. 387 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: If I recalled yea, they did, Yeah, they did, they did, 388 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: Nets were good. 389 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 4: Denver was good. San Antonio, yeah was good. And Indiana, Yes, 390 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 4: Indiana was George McGinnis. 391 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, he had gone to Denver by then because 392 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: he was with the sixtions. 393 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: He started in Indiana and he was part of the 394 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 3: championship teams that they had in Indiana and the ABA, 395 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 3: and he he came to the sixth year before me. 396 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 3: And then two years after he got to Philadelphia, he 397 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 3: got traded to Denver for Bobby Jones. That's how I 398 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 3: became teammates with Bobby Jones. George, George went to Denver. 399 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: The the when you got to the NBA and Portland 400 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: was good. You were good. The Warriors were good. The Sonics, 401 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: the Sonics with you know, they were very good. The 402 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: Washington Bullets at the time were very good teams. And 403 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: Lake was always good, right, Lakers role is good? 404 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: Was there. 405 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeap who was the first NBA player when you merged 406 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: that you had not played against and you immediately thought, okay, 407 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: because you you were the best ABA player. There was 408 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: a couple of exhibitions, but you watch on TV or 409 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: you read about who was the first NBA guy you 410 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: played against, and went, I. 411 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: Think with the Knicks since I was a New Yorker 412 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 3: and they had Willis Reed and Clyde Frazier and you know, 413 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 3: I mean those two would have been Clyde and I 414 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: had the same agent. You know, my agency was Walt Frager. 415 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 3: Sports Enterprise is. 416 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: Run by Irwin Wingdam. 417 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 3: So I had seen Clyde off the court that I'd 418 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: been in his rolls Royce and we had gone shopping together. 419 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: But we had not played on the court against and 420 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, so he was he was one of the guys. 421 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: He was. 422 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 2: He played real defense. 423 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the ultimate, the Ultimate and the next you know, 424 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 3: they also had David Busher and we played them in 425 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 3: exhibition games and the expression games were all are very good. 426 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 3: I think we beat them, but you know they always 427 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 3: had the excuse, our guys aren't in shape yet, because 428 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 3: you know, we really take the off season, off training camps, 429 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 3: when we get in shape and get ready for the season, 430 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 3: and that's when you see us our best. And I'm like, 431 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: every time you step on the court, I'm supposed to 432 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 3: see you at your best. 433 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: You know, don't make don't make excuses? 434 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: Man, how much of your artistry was practiced and how 435 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: much was instinctive? The dunks, the swooping. I mean, you 436 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: know a lot of times you can go to Rutger Park, 437 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 2: or you can go to the park, but some of 438 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: the stuff I watch feels like it was I mean, 439 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: the dunkover Cooper, I'm sure you'd practiced it, but that 440 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: the ball was loose on the left side, right outside 441 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: of the coaching box. How much of your game was 442 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: instinctive and how much was practiced? 443 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: The My answer to that. 444 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 3: Is the greatest compliment that I've ever received. We're from 445 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 3: teammates Alice and Henry Bibby, Steve Makes and they took 446 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 3: the time to say, Doug, I got to tell you something, 447 00:26:54,760 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 3: And I said, what's that? It says you just play 448 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 3: differently from everybody else. And I'm like, what do you mean? 449 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: Dribble? 450 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 3: The dribble left hand, right hand, but the fundamentals are 451 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: the fundamentals. You know, you you pass, you rebound, you score, 452 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: you defend. The fundamentals are fundamental. 453 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: And they said, no, not the way you do it. 454 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: These are my teammates. Yeah, these are my teammates. So 455 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 3: I tried to get a big head out of it, 456 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 3: but I had no way to prove it. You know, 457 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 3: we could look at film and we couldn't look at 458 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: the you know, you have you have you have these 459 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 3: guys now who are the analysts analytical right people? And 460 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 3: you know each franchise has ten to fifteen of these guys, 461 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: right who go through that and then they give reports 462 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 3: and they could see things that a player couldn't see 463 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: and they and obviously that's why they have job that 464 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 3: they have. 465 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: But my job was to like Iceman always said, my 466 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: job was to perform. I like to put on a show, 467 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: you know. So when I get out there on the courting, 468 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: and I want to put on the show. 469 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 3: And when I did something special, I did to run 470 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: down the court and get ready to play defense, you know, 471 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 3: not celebrating and banging and chests and jumping on the 472 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 3: from the stands or you know, falling into the fans 473 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 3: and so when I watched the game. Now, I'm not 474 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 3: all that enthralled with the celebratory part, right, And I 475 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 3: was with I'm in Vegas now, I was with George 476 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 3: yesterday and I said, you know how many times you 477 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: could have looked at one of your opponents after you 478 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 3: scored on him and put your hand down like he 479 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: was just too small to guard you. 480 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: You know how many times you would have done that? Bro? 481 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 3: He said, He said a million million times. But that 482 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 3: wasn't my style. That wasn't al style. You know. Our 483 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: style was not to degrade people. I mean, we wanted 484 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 3: to win and we wanted to beat them. And at 485 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: the end of the day, I mean lots of times 486 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: in the ABA we went out to dinner with the 487 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 3: opponents and uh, you know, we spent time together and 488 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: we made friends. And because one thing about the ABA, 489 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: it was one for all and all of one's right. 490 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 3: So if anybody got any produce fighting up hill people, Yeah, 491 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 3: we're fighting up hill every day. And if people got publicity, 492 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: we would salute it. We wouldn't be haters. And uh, 493 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 3: and that was a good thing about that time in 494 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 3: my life. I mean that was between age twenty one 495 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: and twenty six and if I just could chop that 496 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 3: out and create a dash between that time, I would 497 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 3: have to say it's probably the most enjoyable part in 498 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: my basketball Wow. 499 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: Is there an ABA player one was certainly introduce use 500 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 2: to me uh in the documentary that I wasn't aware of. 501 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 2: But is there an ABA player that you wish would 502 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: have transitioned to the NBA and fans could have given 503 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: been given a glimpse of, like a player that didn't 504 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: do the transition that you look back and go. 505 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 3: So so, Jimmy Jones comes to mind, who played with 506 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 3: Dallas and uh lives here in Vegas. 507 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: Uh, Jimmy Jones was a great player. 508 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: I mean I never hear anybody talk about him, and 509 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 3: I speak to him, you know, once every other month 510 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 3: or what have you. 511 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: He's uh, you know, by being on the board of 512 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: governors at the Hall of Fame. 513 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 3: I tried to get him mentioned in the conversation about 514 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 3: former ABA players who were not recognized and Hall of 515 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: Fame worthy. Jimmy Jones, Willie Wise, Matt Calvin, you know 516 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 3: those three. Then there's another guard who played for Utah. 517 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 3: I can't think of his name right now, and I 518 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 3: apologize for that. But yeah, so this this guy, I mean, 519 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 3: he's probably a dozen if we go through the rosters, 520 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 3: who I could pick out who, you know, I just 521 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: have a certain feeling about because I know planned against him. 522 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 3: When I had my career high in against the San 523 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: Diego Conquistadors, they had a player on their team named 524 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: Warren Jebbali and his name when he came out of 525 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: college was Warren Armstrong and he was kind of a 526 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 3: militant type guy changed his. 527 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: Name to Jabali and he's teaching in the documentary. 528 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: Yes, whatever, But. 529 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 3: I scored sixty three points. It was a four overtime game. 530 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 3: Ryan Taylor scored fifty. Yeah, but Jabali had like fifty 531 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 3: four and and. 532 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: He was a militant. He was militant. He is described, 533 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: I think accurately as kind of anti white. 534 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: Uh. 535 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 2: He had felt oppressed in his life, as many black 536 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: basketball players in the country watching the NBA, and he 537 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: just didn't he didn't hide it. For the record. In 538 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 2: the documentary, they don't spend a ton of time on him, 539 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: but his physique, he looks like an NFL defensive area. 540 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 3: He's six foot four, as strong as a bull and 541 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 3: and love to play inside. He loved to get into 542 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: paint and couldn't nobody do anything with him. He would 543 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: he would get into paint and and he would do 544 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 3: warn h. So so he was special and he was 545 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 3: he was a tough matchup. I got along with him. 546 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: I mean I kind of get along with everybody, so 547 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't have any real issues. 548 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: And you know, I had one fight and I got 549 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: hit by Maurice lu because well, he had a few 550 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: guys and we became we became friends after that. 551 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: Was an enforcer. 552 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, I can get you on my sign because 553 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: Window Latin was gone. 554 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 3: But that's what happened with Wendell Latin and that's how 555 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 3: we got him because Kevin Lockry he always said, man, 556 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 3: this guy he was playing for Kentucky and he says. 557 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: He's so reckless he's gonna hurt Doc. And I can't 558 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: have that. 559 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 3: So we traded Mike Dale for window Lander and Mike 560 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 3: was a really good player. Uh, but then we had 561 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 3: Wendel and you know, we won. We won the championship 562 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 3: with Windland seventy four. 563 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: One of the things about the ABA that I didn't know, 564 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: and they had a lot of footage of it. Yeah, 565 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 2: because you guys were fighting for your basketball lives and 566 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: your economy. The fights in the ABA and the footage 567 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: in the documentary, I don't know where they got all 568 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: the footage, but there are fistfights and at one point 569 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: in the documentary they're like, it was a nightly occurrence 570 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: to fights. Yeah, that is Julius. 571 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know. 572 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: I had no idea it was not. 573 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 3: I caught the second half of that because I wasn't 574 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 3: there in the first three years. And when I got there, 575 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 3: I just heard story after story and warning after warning, 576 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 3: don't mess with this guy, don't mess with this guy 577 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: or whatever. 578 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: And what do you mean? 579 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 3: You know I'm going I'm Duncan you know I'm free? 580 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 3: I couldn't dunk in college though. If he's under the basket, 581 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: he's gonna catch it and he might not like it. 582 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 3: But you know, you always got to have an enforcer. 583 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: And uh, you know, we had a guy who I 584 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 3: was with the nets. We had Rich Jones and Tim Bassett, 585 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 3: and those two guys they were my enforcements. 586 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: They would let anybody touch me, somebody. 587 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: Hit me the wrong like hockey. 588 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 3: One of those two if Rich didn't get him the 589 00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: tim guy. 590 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: So so that was just the way up the world, 591 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: you know, and uh enforces. 592 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 3: They probably don't have as many enforcements out there now 593 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 3: because you know, nobody wants. 594 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: To get hurt. 595 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: That's right. Everybody's rich. 596 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: Everybody's rich. Rich guys don't want to get. 597 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 2: Hurt, you know, that's right. The face is the money maker. 598 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 3: Exactly when you're poor guy and you know you didn't 599 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 3: get an average money, didn't. 600 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: You know, you just swing for the fence. 601 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 2: But yeah, there there's you know, I grew up in 602 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 2: the West Coast. I when I went to New York, 603 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: I visited Rutger Park, which is a legendary place. So 604 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 2: I you know, it was one of those things where 605 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: I had an afternoon after doon my radio show. And 606 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: so would you say, well, you know there was a 607 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 2: people I didn't see some great game. It's it's a 608 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 2: regular like a Wednesday. 609 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: Thursday there on a Sunday in the summer. 610 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: No, no, no, but I want to go see it 611 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 2: for history sake. I want to go see it. 612 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. 613 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 2: So for the uninitiated here, people in New York get it. 614 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,479 Speaker 2: Old heads get it. But Rutger Park was a place 615 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 2: you made your name, like, so you there are playground 616 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 2: let Lloyd Daniels when I used to work in Vegas 617 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 2: and cover dark you know Lloyd Daniels. There was old 618 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 2: footage of him talk a little bit about Rutger Park 619 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 2: and your introduction to it and have him no cable 620 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 2: TV maybe a the truth is doc that you know, 621 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 2: people didn't know who you were. You go, you go, 622 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: and you're putting on a show there. 623 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well all right. So I grew up in Long Island. Yeah, 624 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, Rock Park's Manhattan and it's Hotown. It's in Harlem. 625 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: So I've been to and through Halem many times. You know. 626 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 3: Actually had a had a job while I was in 627 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 3: college delivering books and that you live around Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx, 628 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 3: Queen's Long and uh, you know, I had a car 629 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 3: and have books in the back of the car. 630 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 1: We go to these people's houses and sometimes the blinds 631 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: would be open, and. 632 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 3: Then when they started knocking the door and they had 633 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 3: to pay for the book that they ordered, the blinds 634 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 3: would go down. 635 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: It's like nobody's home. So so collected was collected was 636 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: pretty tough. That was a tough job. 637 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 3: But I had never played in Rucker Park until I 638 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 3: signed a pro contract because it was a pro summer league. 639 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 3: So I signed a pro contract with the Virginia Squires 640 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 3: Charlie Scott Is to start a team. Yep, they called 641 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 3: him Charlie the Great Scott. And that's where I got 642 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 3: my nickname Julius Doctor j Irving because my friends they 643 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 3: would call me doc or they would just call me 644 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 3: the doctor. But doctor j was a better fit with 645 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 3: Charlie the Great Scott, Julius doctor j Irving. So the 646 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 3: Squire started marketing. So Charlie says, man, I gotta take 647 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 3: you to where I play in the summer. And I 648 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 3: was like, okay, so you know we're in Virginia. We 649 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 3: give him the car, we drive up. 650 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: To New York. 651 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 3: It takes me this playground. People are all over the place, 652 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 3: and it was it was very special. I mean, my 653 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 3: art started palpitating. I mean, I'm like, whoa. 654 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: This is? This is great? 655 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 3: And uh, Peter Vessie, do you know he was coaching 656 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 3: the team he's trying now. Team is called the West Siders. 657 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 3: And so we had some guys from Saint John's, Billy 658 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 3: Schaeffer and Billy Paul's and Georgie Brown's and. 659 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: Me and Charlie, Alie Taylor. 660 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: A few other guys who I can't think of all 661 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 3: their names at the time, but you know, I mean 662 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 3: they were good and some of them played Little ABA, 663 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 3: someone played the NBA, and some of them didn't play 664 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 3: at all. 665 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: They just for street ball players. Yeah, so. 666 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 3: So, so my first experience was to come there on 667 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 3: a Sunday with Charlie and I was just gonna follow 668 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 3: him whatever his routine was, That's what I was gonna do. 669 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: And I knew he was gonna shoot. 670 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 2: So so so that was part of the that was 671 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,399 Speaker 2: Charlie Scott's game. 672 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: Put some shots, right. 673 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 3: So. Uh So, Charlie, at first he would park his 674 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 3: car and then he had tipped the young man who 675 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 3: was out there. He said, you watch my car. You 676 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 3: watch it. 677 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: That's all you gotta do. Maybecame like ten bucks whatever. 678 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 3: So so you got to take care of the guy 679 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 3: watching your car because otherwise, after you play, you go 680 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 3: back out there, your car ain't gonna be there, or 681 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 3: tires are gonna be missing, or something's gonna happen. Right, 682 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 3: so take care of the guy. Come on on the 683 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 3: court and and Charlie and I like, we clipped right away. 684 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 3: We could, we could. I mean, he took me in, 685 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 3: took me on his wing, and you know, I mean 686 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 3: I knew he was the man on the team, but 687 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 3: I was gonna be the man next to the man. 688 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: Uh And I knew that a couple of weeks in. 689 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 3: I mean I didn't know it right in the beginning, 690 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 3: but a couple of weeks in with alb Yankee, who 691 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: was great coach, very level player players coach, and you know, 692 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 3: he gave me pretty good responsibility early. 693 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: And and our team, we didn't have a great team. 694 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 3: We had Fatty Taylor, Bernie Williams, Doug Moow, Neil Johnson, 695 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 3: and Ray Scott. You know, Ray Scott was the veteran 696 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 3: player on our team. So I knew Charlie was gonna shoot, 697 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 3: and I had a little more of an all around game. 698 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: So okay, well he's a shooter, so I'm not the 699 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: gunner per se. 700 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 3: But there was an opening for a rebounding because I 701 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 3: had averaged twenty rebounds the game in college, so you know, 702 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 3: this is the pros. Maybe I can't average twenty, but 703 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 3: I'm gonna try, you know, And I got fifteen sixteen 704 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 3: most nights and that that experience once again, you know, 705 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 3: it wasn't the quote unquote NBA experience, but I was 706 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 3: now a pro and I was I was officially a pro, 707 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 3: and because I was getting paid to play, and I'd 708 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 3: never been paid to play before. 709 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of the journey with the 710 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: Virginia Squires. 711 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 3: And it was also beginning of learning something because our trainer, 712 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 3: we had a trainer there and he we were having 713 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 3: a scrimmage and he told the coach to take me 714 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 3: out of the game. And this nineteen seventy one, right, 715 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 3: it takes me out the game and I come over 716 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 3: and I'd only been playing a couple of minutes. And uh, 717 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 3: he told the coach in front of me, he says, 718 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 3: the guys we're playing against out there, they're going to 719 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 3: try to hurt him. 720 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: And he said, I don't want that to happen. Wow, 721 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: he said they're going to try to hurt him. So 722 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: that was that was an awakening too. 723 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 3: You know, somebody's saying somebody's going to intentionally try to 724 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 3: hurt you because you're better than they are. 725 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: And you know, that was an eye opener. Mm hm. 726 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 2: The the ABA experience, the fashion was a big deal. 727 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 2: They note the afros and the fashion was a big deal. Yea, yeah, 728 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 2: and a lot of it. I wondered if. 729 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 3: Some of that was. 730 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 2: Listen, you know a lot of young guys, you're all 731 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 2: young guys. Young guys like fashion much more than an 732 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: old guy like me. But was some of it away 733 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 2: to say, hey, man, this league were stylish, there's a 734 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: there's a there's art to the ABA. The NBA was overcoached, 735 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 2: but you guys had a style. By the way, the 736 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 2: media liked the style. That's why they paid attention to you. 737 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 2: A lot of startup leagues, Julius don't get any attention 738 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 2: by you know, mainstream legacy media. The legacy media paid 739 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 2: attention to you, And I wonder if the style and 740 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 2: the fashion played into that. 741 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, now you're talking about you know, nineteen seventy to 742 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy six. 743 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: Okay, for me that those those were my five years, 744 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: seventy one seventy. 745 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,800 Speaker 3: Six, and during that time, you know, and bell bottoms, 746 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 3: wearing afros and were dashikis and stuff like that was 747 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 3: very much in fashion. And you know, people strove to 748 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:11,320 Speaker 3: have an individuality about, you know, their personal lifestyle and 749 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 3: even the spouses, you know, the way they dressed. And 750 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 3: you know, when I got married, which was seventy four, 751 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 3: my wife used saying where you going She'd see what 752 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 3: I had, or where you're going, Like I'm going out. 753 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: She said, well, maybe you want to tweak this a 754 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: little bit, do. 755 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 3: This or whatever, you know, and so so I think 756 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 3: a lot of the guys had assistants from either their 757 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 3: wives or their sisters in terms of creating their style. 758 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: Especially with the hair. Yeah, the hair. The hair was. 759 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 3: I think a matter of addressing your heritage. You know, 760 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 3: we really are an African American. Then you're a descendant 761 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 3: of an African tribe of some kind. And when you 762 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 3: see tribes, you've seen FROs, you see you know, like 763 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 3: now it's the braids and yeah, and the twists and 764 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 3: the turns whatever. I never had my hair braided, and 765 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 3: it was long enough to probably braid, but I always 766 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,600 Speaker 3: thought that was like a sissy look. But now now 767 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 3: it's very masculine and it's prevalent. 768 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 2: Before we let you go, your game was so unique 769 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 2: and inventive and creative. When you did get to the 770 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 2: NBA and it was a more structured league, there was 771 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 2: that push and pull where to be Julius. You got 772 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 2: to let the best guy be Julius. But was there 773 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 2: that first year in the NBA did you feel a 774 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 2: little push pull stylistically with your game and the NBA rigidity? 775 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:08,479 Speaker 3: Absolutely, you did, absolutely, And and it was really more 776 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 3: with myself and my teammates. And we had Darryl Dawkins, 777 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,319 Speaker 3: we had World B Free at Duncan World B Free, 778 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 3: and we had you know, Dougie Collins and George mcginnit's Cornwell. 779 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: And and it was and we got to. 780 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 3: Mid season with that team and I would I wouldn't 781 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 3: say it was easy. The team had its struggles, but 782 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 3: you know, we had won maybe eighty percent of our games. 783 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 1: By the time we get to mid season. And then 784 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: we wanted Billy. 785 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 3: That was the second thing was Billy Cunningham his first 786 00:46:53,640 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 3: year where we wanted to bring somebody in uh and 787 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,399 Speaker 3: and change the dynamic of the team. And the first 788 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 3: year with geenis Show, we didn't have to do that, 789 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 3: but with Billy Cunningham, we didn't. We bought in Clement 790 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 3: Johnson and Reggie Johnson Johnson boys and whatever, and one 791 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 3: was big, strong and a husky and the other was 792 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 3: a finesse player. It was a shooter and with both 793 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 3: of them great guys, and they just made a seamless 794 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 3: transition into into what we had going. And unfortunately some 795 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 3: of the guys who we did their first year, they 796 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 3: were no longer there the second year because we'll be free, 797 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 3: went to Cleveland and when George ended up going to 798 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 3: to Denver. 799 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, the question once again, was there adjustments. 800 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 3: Hell, yeah, there were plenty of adjustments, and and and 801 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 3: I had gone from the Squires to the nets, so 802 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,800 Speaker 3: I had experienced an adjustment, but the adjustment from the 803 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 3: nets to the sixers was a much bigger adjustment. It 804 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 3: was huge, it was it was huge, and you know, 805 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 3: the reward was, Hey, this is the business. You know, 806 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,399 Speaker 3: got a good contract, let's go. You're getting paid to play, 807 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 3: so so go and play. 808 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 2: Do you think your ABA stats will ever be included 809 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 2: in NBA history? 810 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:32,359 Speaker 1: Oh? 811 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, Like right now, I would say ninety nine 812 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 3: percent of the times when I when I go somewhere, 813 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 3: make a public appearance or whatever, they always you know, 814 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 3: mentioned that I'm at in the thirty thousand point club 815 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 3: and four time MVP and a two time Playoff MVP, 816 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 3: and so on and so forth. 817 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,200 Speaker 2: So the basketball community except so, so it's a given. 818 00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: The basketball community accepts it. 819 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 3: And I think you know, sometimes in television broadcasts they 820 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 3: don't like to go earlier in nineteen ninety two, like 821 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 3: so I noticed that because you know, there was I mean, 822 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 3: there was no ESPN when Trying played, and you know, 823 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 3: so you know, ESPN is kind of like the sports network, 824 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:28,320 Speaker 3: right other than the cable situations, and so they didn't exist, 825 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 3: so they don't have a. 826 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: Handle on that. They don't care about it. 827 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 2: I care about them, of course. Soul Power it's on 828 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 2: Amazon Prime. Legend of the ABA. It's fascinating. The footage, 829 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:49,320 Speaker 2: the archive footage is remarkable. The fights are crazy. Fortunately 830 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:50,800 Speaker 2: you didn't have a ton of them. You had a 831 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,720 Speaker 2: Skirmisher two with Larry Bird, but everybody did except maybe Magic, 832 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 2: so that doesn't count. 833 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: That's funny. I'm gonna start using that. That's okay with. 834 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 2: Everybody, but Magic, right, yep, good, great speaking with you, 835 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 2: Thank you. 836 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,400 Speaker 3: It's been my pleasure, absolutely, and you know, there's so 837 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,720 Speaker 3: much more to be told. You know, I'm just telling 838 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 3: my version of it, and the fans will really enjoy 839 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 3: this story. 840 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,360 Speaker 2: Oh, it's a great four part series I strung for 841 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,120 Speaker 2: all you documentary fans, sports or non sports fashion style. 842 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 2: The merger, the I mean the race. 843 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,280 Speaker 1: Behind the scenes is all the behind the scenes stuff. 844 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 2: Oh, it's unbelievable with the. 845 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 3: Recruitment of Kareema abdul Jabar. Enjoyed mic and and all 846 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 3: that stuff. It's good stuff. 847 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: Thanks Julius, Thank you brother, appreciate you. 848 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 2: So a little non Julius Irving News. Drew Dollman, the 849 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 2: twenty seven year old center who I believe played every 850 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:58,759 Speaker 2: snap for the Bears last year, suddenly retired. Smart guy Stanford. 851 00:50:58,280 --> 00:50:58,680 Speaker 3: Guy. 852 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 2: You know, had made his money and just decided it 853 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:09,320 Speaker 2: is a listen man. Playing center in the NFL is 854 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 2: a daunting physical experience. You're you're dealing usually with somebody 855 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,760 Speaker 2: about thirty pounds heavier, you know, nose tackles. The Jalen 856 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,959 Speaker 2: carters are an experience like none other on a football field, 857 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 2: going Mono Imano. Now Joe Toney and Jonah Jackson at 858 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 2: the guard positions, and the Bears are above average on 859 00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 2: the old line as a unit. And it's not a 860 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 2: it's not a bad center draft in the NFL. It's 861 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,840 Speaker 2: a good o line year in the NFL, and the 862 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,839 Speaker 2: Bears have a first, a second, a third, a fourth, 863 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 2: a fifth, and a couple of seventh rounders, so they'll 864 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,359 Speaker 2: they'll obviously furnish this draft is going to be all 865 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,720 Speaker 2: defensive players and probably a center. Now I'd mentioned before 866 00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 2: they could go all defense during their draft. They obviously 867 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 2: somewhere in one of those picks. There's not a first 868 00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,720 Speaker 2: round center, but they'll be. It's a good center draft, 869 00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 2: not a great wide receiver, tight end or running back draft. 870 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 2: Good tackle, good center draft, good edge rusher draft. But 871 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:19,120 Speaker 2: Dolman's one of those guys. Listen, players make more money. 872 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,759 Speaker 2: We've had a couple of Stanford guys retire early, you 873 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 2: know players. I mean, Andrew Luck retired early Stanford, Drew 874 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 2: Dolman retiring early Stanford years ago. The San Francisco forty 875 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 2: nine ers had an interior offensive lineman retire early. Chris 876 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 2: Borland Wisconsin Badger forty nine ers retired early. You know, 877 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:52,320 Speaker 2: offensive lineman, quarterbacks, you know, offensive linemen are in the trenches. 878 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,799 Speaker 2: Think about it. No unit in the NFL is more 879 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:01,880 Speaker 2: physically taxing yet gets less credit the offensive line. You know, 880 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 2: pass rushers, dan lineman, that's all anybody talks about during 881 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 2: the broadcast. They get the big money. Left tackles get money, 882 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,640 Speaker 2: but interior alignment rarely do. And you know, Drew Dolman, 883 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,520 Speaker 2: he still has you know, physically, he's still in a 884 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 2: good space. So it happens. Caleb Williams went to Twitter 885 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,800 Speaker 2: and had a sad emoji hulk dot dot dot. It 886 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,880 Speaker 2: is a loss. It's the first thing Ben Johnson addressed 887 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,640 Speaker 2: was the interior oh line. It comes as a shock, 888 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 2: but I'm always going to defend guys who retire early, 889 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 2: especially guys in the trenches. I remember having a conversation 890 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 2: years ago with Ed Cunningham, who played at the University 891 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,480 Speaker 2: of Washington for that national championship team and played for 892 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 2: the Arizona Cardinals. His career was about ten years and 893 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 2: he retired and he was still, you know, in physically 894 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 2: good shape, and he just talked about what playing center, 895 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,280 Speaker 2: because he was an undersized center, kind of a cerebral 896 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 2: academic center, but undersized what it did to your shoulders 897 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,720 Speaker 2: and your hands, and that it's a really tough position 898 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 2: to play. I mean, you you age fast in the 899 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:19,880 Speaker 2: interior offensive line, and so you know, I grew up 900 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,959 Speaker 2: there was a center named Jim Otto who played forever 901 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:29,719 Speaker 2: for the Raiders and pretty sad Mike Webster for the 902 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,919 Speaker 2: Pittsburgh Steelers. And in the history of the NFL, those 903 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 2: two guys had some post football trauma they dealt with, 904 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,360 Speaker 2: which has been well chronicled. And I understand in this 905 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:47,400 Speaker 2: great game players retiring earlier, especially those who are playing 906 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,080 Speaker 2: in the most daunting, punitive positions. And so I wish 907 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,200 Speaker 2: Drew Dollman the best. You know, between Atlanta and the Bears, 908 00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,759 Speaker 2: it's a career to be proud of. But you know 909 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:00,799 Speaker 2: the Bears are going to have to address. The good 910 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 2: news is the offense is stacked. Ben Johnson has a 911 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 2: great sense of offensive personnel, especially, and I think they'll 912 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 2: figure it out. But it comes as a shock, and 913 00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:22,040 Speaker 2: you know you're seeing not every football player lives and 914 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,560 Speaker 2: breathes for the sport. You know a lot of them 915 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 2: love it. It's a journey. They ascend and they reach 916 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,360 Speaker 2: a point physically where they don't want to be wobbling 917 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 2: with their kids. You know, they don't want to have 918 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 2: a bad back, and you know by the seventh shoulder surgery. 919 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,800 Speaker 2: I've told the story before. I read a story a 920 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,759 Speaker 2: couple of years ago in Travis Kelcey and he's already 921 00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,239 Speaker 2: had ten surgeries. I was aware of like one. So 922 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,800 Speaker 2: always going to defend an athlete, a professional football player 923 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,400 Speaker 2: who retires early tip of the Captain Drew Dolman and 924 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:53,920 Speaker 2: now the Bears need to go to work. 925 00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 5: The shot get paid double only on hard Rock Bet. 926 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,799 Speaker 5: Hard Rock Bet is Florida's only legal way to bet 927 00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 5: the NBA teams, players. 928 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 2: Points and more. 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