WEBVTT - Episode 3 – Incompetent

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be remiss if I didn't start, ladies and gentlemen

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<v Speaker 2>by thanking Montgomery County Police Department.

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<v Speaker 1>They have worked tirelessly.

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<v Speaker 2>There are so many people trying to help, and we

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<v Speaker 2>just appreciate that tremendoucible.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't usually cry, so I apologize.

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<v Speaker 4>Randy Hoggle is standing in front of electron with a

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<v Speaker 4>bunch of microphones capturing every word on either side. He's

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<v Speaker 4>flanked by police officers. His words and his presence seem desperate.

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<v Speaker 2>Ladies and gentlemen, if I could, I really am saying

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<v Speaker 2>this for my daughter, and this is a plea of

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter to come home and have help.

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<v Speaker 4>Randy looks like he hasn't slept. His crisp blue and

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<v Speaker 4>white shirt is a contrast to his drawn face and

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<v Speaker 4>the bags under his eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>Many people deal with mental illness, Many families deal with

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<v Speaker 2>mental illness. It's always a judgment about medication and the

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<v Speaker 2>delicate balance of medication being taken.

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<v Speaker 4>Randy's daughter, Katherine Hoggle, has been missing on the run

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<v Speaker 4>for three days now, and it's been four days since

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<v Speaker 4>anyone besides Catherine has seen her two youngest children, Sarah

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<v Speaker 4>and Jacob.

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<v Speaker 2>We know she's probably not been on medication for two weeks,

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<v Speaker 2>and thus we know, Katherine, this is not you, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is not who you're about and what you do.

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<v Speaker 4>For years, Catherine's mental health had been deteriorating. This last year.

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<v Speaker 4>In particular, her family, her dad Randy, her mom Lindsay,

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<v Speaker 4>and her partner Troy, had run themselves ragged trying to

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<v Speaker 4>get Catherine the help she needed. Not only did they

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<v Speaker 4>get her committed to a mental health facility for a

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<v Speaker 4>time when she was at home, Catherine had to follow

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<v Speaker 4>strict rules set out by her family. Catherine wasn't allowed

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<v Speaker 4>to be alone with the kids, she couldn't drive, and

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<v Speaker 4>she had to continue attending a day program at a

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<v Speaker 4>psychiatric hospital. It was all in an attempt to keep

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<v Speaker 4>both the kids and Catherine safe. But now as days

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<v Speaker 4>went by and the kids and Catherine remained missing, they

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<v Speaker 4>were all coming to the horrible realization that Catherine was

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<v Speaker 4>more dangerous than they had ever imagined, and maybe, just

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<v Speaker 4>maybe they hadn't done enough to help her.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone here is committed to if you just come and

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<v Speaker 2>get help, we'll all help you. And for that, I

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<v Speaker 2>just want to say, please come home. We miss you,

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<v Speaker 2>and we miss the kids.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Beth Carris and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast

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<v Speaker 4>from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio. This press conference gave the

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<v Speaker 4>family one small win. The very next evening, Catherine was

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<v Speaker 4>spotted and police were notified.

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<v Speaker 5>When she was picked up, she was over there with

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<v Speaker 5>her purse full of flyers and she was pulling them

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<v Speaker 5>down when she was seen by the people who called

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<v Speaker 5>the police to say they.

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<v Speaker 4>Saw Catherine was finally in custody and police began to

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<v Speaker 4>interrogate her. Troy, father of the missing children, breathed a

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<v Speaker 4>sigh of relief.

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<v Speaker 5>The next morning, I get a call and they're asking

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<v Speaker 5>myself and Randy to come in and saying, look, she

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<v Speaker 5>won't tell us where the kids are. Maybe she'll tell

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<v Speaker 5>you guys, come ask her.

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<v Speaker 4>This was the moment Troy had put all his hope into.

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<v Speaker 5>When I first walked into the room, she looks at

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<v Speaker 5>me and she goes, oh, what are you doing here?

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<v Speaker 5>You know, kind of like it's a Saturday and I

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<v Speaker 5>show up at a bowling alley and she had like

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<v Speaker 5>a tournament or something. I said, well, I'm here to say,

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<v Speaker 5>you can tell me what the kids are so I

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<v Speaker 5>can go pick up our children, and she was like,

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<v Speaker 5>they're safe. I said, where are they? She said, they're fine.

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<v Speaker 5>I gave them someone. They're being watched. They're fine. I said, Katherine,

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<v Speaker 5>where are my kids?

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<v Speaker 4>It became clear pretty quickly that Catherine's arrest would not

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<v Speaker 4>be the end of Troy's nightmare. In many ways, it

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<v Speaker 4>marked a new beginning. At this point, Catherine had only

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<v Speaker 4>been charged with child neglect and detaining a child misdemeanors.

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<v Speaker 4>Murder charges would not come for another three years, but

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<v Speaker 4>the capture and arrest of Catherine would kick off a

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<v Speaker 4>legal and personal odyssey that would raise questions about mental

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<v Speaker 4>illness and how it intersects with policing and the court system.

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<v Speaker 4>Her family would also face their own reckoning. They would

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<v Speaker 4>have to come to terms with the fact that their

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<v Speaker 4>efforts to find Catherine help hadn't been nearly enough, and

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<v Speaker 4>that that lack of help meant that the worst thing

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<v Speaker 4>they could imagine happening had happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Was day in September when in she had been interviewed

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<v Speaker 1>by the police. I believe for several hours. They had

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<v Speaker 1>brought in some people to talk with her, other people

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<v Speaker 1>other than the police to talk with her. In an

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<v Speaker 1>attempt to gain information.

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<v Speaker 4>David Felson is Catherine's attorney.

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<v Speaker 1>I then went in to see her. She was in

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<v Speaker 1>a very small room. She was in a plastic smock

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<v Speaker 1>type of clothing because the police had taken her clothing.

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<v Speaker 1>It was obvious to me, without disclosing anything confidential, that

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<v Speaker 1>there were profound mental health issues for Catherine, clearly and

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<v Speaker 1>profoundly not Well.

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<v Speaker 4>What did you observe about her physically or what was

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<v Speaker 4>coming out of her mouth that made you conclude she

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<v Speaker 4>was profound mentally ill.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm not a doctor. I can't. It would be

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<v Speaker 1>wrong for me to say that I made that conclusion.

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<v Speaker 1>I had the suspicion it was profoundly obvious that when

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<v Speaker 1>you would talk to her there were significant deficits and

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<v Speaker 1>significant disconnects between the circumstances that she found herself in

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<v Speaker 1>and the way she would react to people. But my

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<v Speaker 1>job was to represent her. There were a variety of

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<v Speaker 1>issues that I was concerned with. The first was her competency,

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<v Speaker 1>because without her competency, she can't make rational and reasonable

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<v Speaker 1>decisions about what she should do in her circumstance.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, Catherine's lawyer might have been concerned about her level

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<v Speaker 4>of competency. The police had other concerns.

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<v Speaker 1>We had authorities providing a fair amount of pressure on

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<v Speaker 1>us concerning the children.

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<v Speaker 3>Obviously there are some mental health concerns. Our concern is

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<v Speaker 3>the investigation and bringing those two children home.

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<v Speaker 4>Montgomery County Police Assistant Chief Darren Frank was a captain

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<v Speaker 4>in twenty fourteen. He spoke to the media when the

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<v Speaker 4>kids first went missing.

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<v Speaker 3>We are running down every single lead. We are collecting

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<v Speaker 3>data from phones, We're collecting data from sightings, We're collecting

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<v Speaker 3>data from just interviews with people that knew Catherine, and

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<v Speaker 3>we're chasing down every single possibility to figure out where

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<v Speaker 3>she is. There's at least fifty officers involved with that effort.

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<v Speaker 4>Missing people are a concern for the police, but missing children,

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<v Speaker 4>they are everyone's nightmare. And sometimes, in their desperate effort

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<v Speaker 4>to find missing kids, police will push the envelope on

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<v Speaker 4>what is permissible.

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<v Speaker 3>We have two children out there that their client claims

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<v Speaker 3>to be alive, and we're trying to locate them, and

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<v Speaker 3>the Montgomery County Police will do everything within the bounds

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<v Speaker 3>of the law to try and find out where those

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<v Speaker 3>children are.

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<v Speaker 4>A few weeks after Catherine's arrest, detectives went to collect

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<v Speaker 4>a DNA sample from her. Desperate for answers, the investigators

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<v Speaker 4>ended up speaking to Catherine for a couple of hours

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<v Speaker 4>without her attorney knowing about it. This is a sticky

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<v Speaker 4>area where investigators have to balance a defendant's rights with

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<v Speaker 4>the urgency of the situation.

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<v Speaker 3>He has to do his job. We run into this

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<v Speaker 3>all the time with all kinds of cases that there

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<v Speaker 3>are areas that defense attorneys don't like us acting.

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<v Speaker 4>Once her lawyer learned about this interaction between his client

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<v Speaker 4>and the police, he filed a motion asking the judge

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<v Speaker 4>to dismiss the charges. In court, there was also discussion

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<v Speaker 4>about whether Catherine had communicated an offer to take the

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<v Speaker 4>police to the children, something Catherine has denied. In the end,

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<v Speaker 4>the judge did not dismiss the charges, but told the

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<v Speaker 4>police that they couldn't speak to Catherine without her lawyer present.

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<v Speaker 4>The police were also prevented from taking Catherine up on

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<v Speaker 4>her alleged offer to lead them to the children.

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<v Speaker 3>I spoke with her, My investigators spoke with her, and

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<v Speaker 3>she very clearly, very lucid, said yes, I want to

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<v Speaker 3>take you to an address, and was trying to dictate

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<v Speaker 3>terms to us on when she wanted to go, and

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<v Speaker 3>she wanted to go immediately. But now I'm disappointed that

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<v Speaker 3>she wasn't afforded the opportunity that day to go. But

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<v Speaker 3>I certainly understand the judge's decision. As a law enforcement officer,

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<v Speaker 3>I understand it. I respect it as a father. If

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<v Speaker 3>I wasn't a law enforce an officer, I'd be very upset,

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<v Speaker 3>And I think Troyce expressed that, And I think if

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<v Speaker 3>you go to most people when it's their children in

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<v Speaker 3>that situation, they would feel the same frustrat that a

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<v Speaker 3>system is standing in the way of finding out what

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<v Speaker 3>happens to him.

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<v Speaker 4>Troy was no doubt frustrated with the system.

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<v Speaker 5>Once she got locked up. I was calling hoping that

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<v Speaker 5>she would say something. I was calling daily at first,

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<v Speaker 5>and she would talk to me and she was like,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, the kids are saying. I would try to

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<v Speaker 5>talk to her maybe about like just some other things,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, what's going there or whatever, and then come

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<v Speaker 5>back to the kids to see if she would answer differently.

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<v Speaker 4>At the beginning of this whole saga, Troy believed he

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<v Speaker 4>might actually find his kids alive. That a small part

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<v Speaker 4>of what Catherine had told him was true that she

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<v Speaker 4>had dropped them off at a friend's house. This isn't

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<v Speaker 4>the first time I've heard about a mother who's accused

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<v Speaker 4>of hurting her kids but tells the police that they

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<v Speaker 4>are safe with friends. Lori Valo Dabel did that, and

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<v Speaker 4>so did Casey Anthony.

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<v Speaker 5>So when it first happened, I'm thinking, Okay, within a day,

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<v Speaker 5>we're going come back. Then after you know, Tuesday goes by,

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<v Speaker 5>we do all the questions stuff on. When Wednesday goes by,

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<v Speaker 5>and it's kind of like, all right, we're passing on flyers.

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<v Speaker 5>Nobody's seeing nothing. All right, So within a week or

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<v Speaker 5>two they're gonna be back home. Then from like two

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<v Speaker 5>weeks out, I'm going, okay, within the next three weeks

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<v Speaker 5>or so, they got to be back here. So after

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<v Speaker 5>a month passes, I go, okay, Well, within it like

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<v Speaker 5>the next month or so, whoever has them. They don't

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<v Speaker 5>want to feed somebody else's kids, you know, like someone's

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<v Speaker 5>gonna come out and be like, oh, is someone gonna

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<v Speaker 5>pick up these kids? I was babysitting, you know, or

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<v Speaker 5>something like that. And I'm thinking, okay, now they're on

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<v Speaker 5>TV and stuff. So whoever has them, who thinks maybe

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<v Speaker 5>their mom left them and abandon them. They're gonna see

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<v Speaker 5>them on TV and go, oh my god, I'm not

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<v Speaker 5>actually supposed to have these kids and bring them home.

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<v Speaker 4>But we know that never happened. The children have now

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<v Speaker 4>been missing for nine years.

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<v Speaker 5>My perspective started to shift. I felt like, as their father,

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<v Speaker 5>though on, my job was to keep hope out there

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<v Speaker 5>and continue to look, even though I didn't believe it anymore.

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<v Speaker 5>And finally, I remember one of the first time I

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<v Speaker 5>ever said publica, I felt like I was betrayed, Sarah Jacob.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, I got home and I broke down, cried,

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<v Speaker 5>and I was just like, I betrayed my kids.

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<v Speaker 4>Today, three years after she was arrested, Catherine was charged

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<v Speaker 4>with the murder of her children, even though their bodies

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<v Speaker 4>have never been found, But since being found incompetent to

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<v Speaker 4>stand trial, she has never had to face those charges

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<v Speaker 4>in court, and because of the limitations in the law

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<v Speaker 4>in the state where she lives, she might never have to.

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<v Speaker 6>So people want to make sure that justice, the criminal

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<v Speaker 6>side of things, are served, but also oftentimes they want

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<v Speaker 6>to make sure that the human beings who are involved

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<v Speaker 6>in that process are also treated like human beings. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 6>human beings, you know, do really terrible things, but they're

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<v Speaker 6>still human beings.

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<v Speaker 4>Test Neil is a forensic psychologist and associate professor at

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<v Speaker 4>Iowa State University, and she studies the delicate intersection between

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<v Speaker 4>the US justice system and the rights of the mentally ill.

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<v Speaker 6>Let's say the court has decided that somebody is incompetent

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<v Speaker 6>to stand trial. Now, what that means is that based

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<v Speaker 6>on the sixth Amendment to our Constitution, it guarantees that

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<v Speaker 6>people who are accused of committeing a crime, they have

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<v Speaker 6>the right to confront the witnesses against them, They have

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<v Speaker 6>or the right to aid in their own defense. They

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<v Speaker 6>have the right to help their attorney, you know, defend

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<v Speaker 6>them against those charges. And so the concept here is

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<v Speaker 6>that if somebody is incompetent to stand trial, then they

0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.360
<v Speaker 6>are not in their right mind to be able to

0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.239
<v Speaker 6>help defend themselves against those charges. And so the system,

0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.840
<v Speaker 6>our legal system, has said that is unfair. So we

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.360
<v Speaker 6>do have the strong public interest, this desire to move

0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:53.719
<v Speaker 6>this case forward. But now we have a person who

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.520
<v Speaker 6>cannot participate in the process as it has been designed.

0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.920
<v Speaker 6>So we need to stop that process and wait until

0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.280
<v Speaker 6>the person is of of their right mind and can

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 6>participate in their own defense.

0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.439
<v Speaker 4>Competency is a legal determination by a judge who considers

0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.040
<v Speaker 4>what treating doctors and experts have to say. But in

0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 4>another state, using the same evidence, Catherine may well have

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.280
<v Speaker 4>been found competent to stantrial. Even a different judge in

0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:24.200
<v Speaker 4>Maryland may have made a different determination. In Maryland, the

0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 4>longest and incompetent person can be held for any felony,

0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.800
<v Speaker 4>including murder is five years, and after the five years

0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 4>are up and that person cannot be made to understand

0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 4>or to help in their defense, those charges will be dismissed.

0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:44.240
<v Speaker 4>This is, no doubt very frustrating for Troy. He's concerned

0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 4>no one will be held responsible for the deaths of

0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 4>his children, but he's also worried about something else, that

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.000
<v Speaker 4>Catherine might in fact be manipulating the system. He knows

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.760
<v Speaker 4>that she is mentally ill, but Troy wonders if she's

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.480
<v Speaker 4>more capable than she's letting on, And with hindsight, he's

0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.280
<v Speaker 4>even now wondering when that manipulation began.

0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.400
<v Speaker 5>Nobody thinks about someone would do this, especially in a

0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:10.800
<v Speaker 5>way like this, where it would have had to have

0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 5>been playing net where it's not this psychotic break.

0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 4>Since the kids have been gone, Troy has discovered more

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 4>about the evening leading up to their disappearance. While Troy

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.160
<v Speaker 4>was at work, Catherine was with her father, Randy, and

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 4>the children. And remember, Catherine was not allowed to be

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.080
<v Speaker 4>alone with the kids, nor was she allowed to drive.

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.560
<v Speaker 4>But Troy has discovered that that afternoon, Randy gave his

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 4>daughter his car keys and let her leave.

0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.800
<v Speaker 5>She left with Jacob to go get pizza right up

0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 5>the street and came back three and a half hours

0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:43.400
<v Speaker 5>without him.

0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.480
<v Speaker 4>Troy learned that when Catherine came back without Jacob, she

0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.080
<v Speaker 4>told her father that she had dropped the two year

0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 4>old off at a friend's for a sleepover. A two

0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.040
<v Speaker 4>year old at a sleepover, Think about that.

0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 5>I don't know any of this at the time. I'm

0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 5>at work.

0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.960
<v Speaker 4>It occurued to Troy now that Catherine had been capable

0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 4>enough that day to come up with a lie about

0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:11.560
<v Speaker 4>what she had done with their son. When Troy gets

0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 4>home later that night after stopping at a grocery store,

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 4>he finds Catherine sitting outside their townhouse on the front steps.

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, what are you doing down here? She's like, oh,

0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 5>I was going to help you, Cary the groceries up.

0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:23.680
<v Speaker 5>I said, ah, that's cool.

0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.400
<v Speaker 4>Troy was tired, it had been a long day. He

0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.240
<v Speaker 4>just wanted to kiss his kids and fall asleep. But

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.680
<v Speaker 4>Catherine didn't want to go in just yet. She wanted

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 4>to go across the street to grab a soda.

0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.040
<v Speaker 5>So I said, yeah, it's fine. So we just went

0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 5>across the street real quick. God it came back, carried

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.880
<v Speaker 5>the groceries up, put him away, and by then it's

0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.000
<v Speaker 5>like one o'clock in the morning. I'm tired.

0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.040
<v Speaker 5>Literally, every other night in my life, whenever I got

0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.440
<v Speaker 5>home my kids were in bed, I would walk in,

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.280
<v Speaker 5>pray by their bed, kiss him good night, and go

0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.760
<v Speaker 5>lay down. That night, I was tired, and I was like,

0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.400
<v Speaker 5>you know what if they wake up, I'm up yourself

0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:01.200
<v Speaker 5>went to bed.

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.879
<v Speaker 4>In the rear view mirror, Catherine's actions feel different, manipulative,

0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 4>like part of a plan.

0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.720
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel like Catherine took the kids to hurt you.

0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:15.240
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel like that was her mind?

0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.040
<v Speaker 5>I feel like that was probably one, Like I believe

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.040
<v Speaker 5>that part of this is a revenge thing, and I

0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.600
<v Speaker 5>think she felt like I had basically made her life

0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.159
<v Speaker 5>almost a confinement or something. Because she had the day program,

0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.199
<v Speaker 5>she couldn't be alone with the kids, you know, So

0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.879
<v Speaker 5>I think it was a way of taking control. And

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 5>I think that it was probably anger towards me because

0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 5>I'm the one who had her committed, because well, I mean,

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.159
<v Speaker 5>her parents didn't have the guts to do it. I

0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.679
<v Speaker 5>think part of it is just her not wanting the

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:46.639
<v Speaker 5>responsibility of being a mother at that point.

0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 4>We know what happens next. Later that afternoon, Catherine takes

0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.680
<v Speaker 4>Troy on a wild goose chase. The kids are never

0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:00.679
<v Speaker 4>found and Catherine takes off. Five days later, she's nabbed

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.119
<v Speaker 4>by the police and since then has been in custody.

0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:08.439
<v Speaker 4>But Catherine's criminal case was halted soon after her arrest

0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:13.240
<v Speaker 4>when her attorney asked for Catherine to be evaluated for competency.

0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 4>But Troy is skeptical about Catherine's incompetency, especially as time

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.840
<v Speaker 4>wore on and Catherine continued to hinder the search for

0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:22.320
<v Speaker 4>the kids.

0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.919
<v Speaker 5>Why wouldn't you just bring them home? I said, bring

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:26.119
<v Speaker 5>them home, they'll drop the charges.

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.080
<v Speaker 1>You're out, And she.

0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 5>Said, they still want to put me in jo. I said,

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 5>well they can't, So she says, well no, they still

0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.080
<v Speaker 5>have all the misdemeanor charges, and she goes, well, they

0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.359
<v Speaker 5>have the primer production, which is sixty days time served.

0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.440
<v Speaker 5>She goes, there's the obstruction that's ninety days. That's time served.

0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.679
<v Speaker 5>She goes, but they still have the two misdemeanor neglect charges.

0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.640
<v Speaker 5>They carry five years each. She says, that's ten years

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:46.439
<v Speaker 5>that they can put on me.

0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.520
<v Speaker 4>Troy feels that Catherine's refusal to talk about the children

0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.639
<v Speaker 4>and assist in her own defense is calculated that it

0:18:57.640 --> 0:18:59.679
<v Speaker 4>could be a ploy to keep her out of prison,

0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 4>and he's not alone. The Catherine Hoggle that you saw in.

0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.560
<v Speaker 6>That courtroom, was she the same capenhoggle that you interviewed

0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:08.920
<v Speaker 6>he did.

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.639
<v Speaker 4>Early in the investigation, a local Maryland reporter spoke with

0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.080
<v Speaker 4>police Captain Darren Frank about Catherine.

0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:18.320
<v Speaker 5>In what way was she different.

0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.000
<v Speaker 3>When we have spoken with her every time. She's very lucid.

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.520
<v Speaker 3>She knows exactly who's around her. I had ten minutes

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.199
<v Speaker 3>of interaction with her when she was originally arrested. She

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.840
<v Speaker 3>knew exactly who I was. When I came to see

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.720
<v Speaker 3>her at her request. That was one of the first

0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.800
<v Speaker 3>things that I asked to see. How loocid she was

0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.120
<v Speaker 3>and she remembered me instantly so, and she also remembers

0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.760
<v Speaker 3>the investigators by name, and she makes requests of certain

0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.080
<v Speaker 3>investigators by name completely different person in the courtroom.

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.240
<v Speaker 4>It seems to some that Catherine might have a plan,

0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.159
<v Speaker 4>knowing that in Maryland, the court must dismiss felony charges

0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.320
<v Speaker 4>against anyone found incompetent for five years. Has this occurred

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.320
<v Speaker 4>to Catherine? Could she find a way to remain incompetent

0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.879
<v Speaker 4>long enough to see the murder charges dismissed?

0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.280
<v Speaker 5>Well, I would ask her. Hering game it was, I've

0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:09.600
<v Speaker 5>been advised to remaining confident.

0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 6>That's how she said it.

0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:13.960
<v Speaker 1>I've justsed I've.

0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.160
<v Speaker 5>Been advised to remaining confident, And then I would say, well,

0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:17.879
<v Speaker 5>who advised you?

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Troy?

0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 5>You know, I can't tell you that.

0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:28.000
<v Speaker 4>Even Catherine's mother, Lindsay, seems to agree with Troy. This

0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 4>is from an affidavit from twenty fifteen that Lindsay signed.

0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.359
<v Speaker 4>Catherine has explained to me that her plan is to

0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.560
<v Speaker 4>try to remain incompetent long enough to be found not

0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.600
<v Speaker 4>to be a danger to herself or others, and therefore

0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.359
<v Speaker 4>able to be released and either live with me or

0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.280
<v Speaker 4>live in a community home for women she has identified.

0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.760
<v Speaker 4>To do this. To remain incompetent for long enough to

0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 4>get her charges dismissed, Catherine would have to convince her

0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.399
<v Speaker 4>therapist and treating psychiatrists at the state hospital where she

0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:02.160
<v Speaker 4>lives that she is not restorable, that no medication can

0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.919
<v Speaker 4>make her competent. But that's not an easy task. The

0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.080
<v Speaker 4>vast majority of incompetent defendants are restored within a year

0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:25.639
<v Speaker 4>or so. Detroit the law seems unfair. It feels to

0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.119
<v Speaker 4>him that it just allows Catherine to get away with

0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.359
<v Speaker 4>a horrible crime in a few short years and will

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.800
<v Speaker 4>leave those who loved Jacob and Sarah without any sense

0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:39.960
<v Speaker 4>of accountability or justice. But to others, the law operated

0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:46.040
<v Speaker 4>exactly as it was intended. Next time, Unrestorable.

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.159
<v Speaker 6>We come from this very puritan kind of heritage in

0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:54.120
<v Speaker 6>our culture, and we're very punitive, with just an extraordinarily

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:56.800
<v Speaker 6>high rate of incarceration in this country and a kind

0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.879
<v Speaker 6>of political narrative that we are tough on crime and

0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.160
<v Speaker 6>we want to make sure that people don't get away

0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:08.200
<v Speaker 6>with things. We also have a still pretty stigmatizing view

0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:18.560
<v Speaker 6>of mental illness.

0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 4>Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by me Beth Carris

0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.359
<v Speaker 4>and Sarah Trelevin. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhard mixing

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:34.360
<v Speaker 4>in sound design by Reza Daya for anonymous content, Jessica

0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.359
<v Speaker 4>Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive

0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.640
<v Speaker 4>in charge of production, and Nick Junyas is our legal counsel.

0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:46.320
<v Speaker 4>For iHeart executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu

0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:46.800
<v Speaker 4>Zafar