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Speaker 1: This Welch's fucking cocktail ship is So it's just so

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Speaker 1: weird because you can tell like there's like a nostalgia

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Speaker 1: play here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like they can look exactly like the fucking

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Speaker 2: Welsh's ship that I used to drink in, like.

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Speaker 1: A little fucking weird, Like when are they gonna like

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Speaker 1: I feel like we're right around the corner from Juicy Juice,

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Speaker 1: Like there's gonna be like juicy juice malt liquor. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Capri remember that ship? Oh my god. You know if

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Speaker 1: they did a fucking Son.

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Speaker 2: Destroy with Caprice Son and trans Caprice Son vodka bone

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Speaker 2: marrow transplant.

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Speaker 1: That's what we need. But I mean, like you can

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Speaker 1: just tell like they're just sort of using these like

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Speaker 1: because the Sunny Delight I think was the canary in

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Speaker 1: the coal mine. When Sunny d came out with their

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Speaker 1: vodka thing, I was like, this is I'm we're pretty squeeze.

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Speaker 1: Ites is gonna have to be next?

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Speaker 2: And guess what vodka confused gushers? I say, Oh, like,

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Speaker 2: I mean do they have they probably have CBD gummies

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Speaker 2: that are gushers?

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Speaker 1: Right? Oh maybe probably?

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Speaker 2: I mean they go even the one that I meant

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Speaker 2: to say when I said zb I'm hip and I

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Speaker 2: do the drugs.

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Speaker 1: I mean I remember like in the early days of

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Speaker 1: like sort of like weed edibles, there would be like

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Speaker 1: the you know, Ganja, Nestley, crunch bar, like kind of

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Speaker 1: evoking these old brands and stuff like that I actually

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Speaker 1: haven't seen. Is like very specifically associated with little children. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well just like preschool snack time. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Their ads were like straight up like a kid who

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Speaker 2: couldn't pronounce all their words, being like I like grape juice,

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Speaker 2: wepe juice. Yeah, they'll be like and you won't be

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Speaker 2: able to talk either after you have five of our

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Speaker 2: vodka twenty.

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Speaker 1: Years Illo, grape juice, Way, weep juice, waste sit off,

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Speaker 1: grape juice.

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Speaker 2: Off that Welch's Vodka Transfusion. Hello the Internet, and welcome

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Speaker 2: to Season three forty three, Episode two of Dark Daily's

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Speaker 2: guys production of My Heart Radio. This is the podcast

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Speaker 2: where we take a deep dive in New American share

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Speaker 2: Couchesteni's Tuesday, June eighteenth, twenty twenty four, Happy birthday to

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Speaker 2: my wife. Oh okay, no time for that.

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Speaker 3: Six times we don't have time six eighteen three sixes

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Speaker 3: the devil equals eighteenth, the eighteenth day of June. Okay,

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Speaker 3: you see I'm doing here with the saches breaks up

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Speaker 3: into twenty four, which also when you turn the sixes

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Speaker 3: upside down or not or six is equal rolling in

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Speaker 3: that six folk on boom and everybody.

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Speaker 2: Everybody says riding down anyway.

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Speaker 1: It's also national oh, national spurs Day, National gold fishing Day. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's a reason we're speaking this fast, folks, don't worry,

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Speaker 1: and it's not because run that Biden crank.

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Speaker 2: Because yeah, I just got I just got that State

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Speaker 2: of the Union good good truck and.

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Speaker 1: Biden Biden back to get us real fucking amps right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jack O'Brien, a here Potato's O'Brien, and

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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co

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Speaker 2: host mister Miles Bred.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sin is Miles Grace.

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Speaker 3: We get to speed to like trying to be like

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden doing the State of the Union address. It's

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Speaker 3: also the Lord of lankersam aka the Showgun with no

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Speaker 3: Gun because I got no gun problems.

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Speaker 1: Miles Gray faint.

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Speaker 2: That was great, Thank you for being here, and Miles Gray,

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Speaker 2: we are thrilled to be joined by the executive director

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Speaker 2: of Civil Rights Corp, which is a nonprofit dedicated to

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Speaker 2: fighting systemic injustice. Has been a civil rights lawyer, a

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Speaker 2: public defender, named twenty sixteen's Trialaler of the Year by

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Speaker 2: Public Justice, author of several books, the incredibly compelling Usual Cruelty,

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Speaker 2: which we've had him on to talk about before. He's

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Speaker 2: got one coming mate this year. Most importantly, a great

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Speaker 2: follow on Twitter and all the social media.

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Speaker 1: Is just kidding, that's my most important.

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Speaker 2: But please welcome back to the show. The brilliant, the

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Speaker 2: talented Alec Hurricanzone. What's up about you?

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for being here. And the reason we're

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Speaker 2: talking like auctioneers is because we only have you for

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Speaker 2: forty five minutes, so we wanted to get right into it.

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Speaker 4: You all sound great, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Man, repped up man, trying just getting through it, just

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Speaker 1: getting through it.

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Speaker 2: Just some people from buying White House and they they've

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Speaker 2: got some Daddy's little helpers is.

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Speaker 1: What they call him.

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Speaker 2: No, it's amazing to have you back. You know, we

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Speaker 2: usually do search history underrated, overrated, but I think I

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Speaker 2: think we can just skip that unless there's something you

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Speaker 2: desperately want to get off your chest that you think

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Speaker 2: is overrated or underrated, or something from your search history.

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Speaker 4: I don't have anything I'm dying to tell everybody. I

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Speaker 4: don't think.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, good, Then we'll ask the questions. We'll ask

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Speaker 2: the questions here, Alec. All right, So last time we

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Speaker 2: checked in with you, there was This was a little

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Speaker 2: over a year ago, or maybe actually a little less

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Speaker 2: than a year ago, but there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: talk in the mainstream media still about how crime was

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Speaker 2: up because everyone defunded the police. And there's been an

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Speaker 2: emerging story that crime has been plummeting much much less

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Speaker 2: popular story with the mainstream media. And I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: there hasn't been like a corresponding like the police were

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Speaker 2: never defunded, so like their theory of the case seems

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Speaker 2: to have been exposed as bullshit. So presumably the mainstream

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Speaker 2: media has been flooded with articles explaining what they got

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Speaker 2: wrong and taking a long hard look at their methodology.

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Speaker 2: How are you seeing these latest crime statistics where crime

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Speaker 2: has gone down?

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Speaker 4: I think it's first to just take a step back

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Speaker 4: and understand that whether we're talking about last year or

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Speaker 4: the year before the year before that. Overall levels of

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Speaker 4: police reported crime in this country are near historic loves.

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Speaker 4: So even when there was all that frenzy about retail

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Speaker 4: theft and shoplifting or car theft or violent crime or robberies,

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Speaker 4: you know, we were still at a stage in history

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Speaker 4: where all of those things were were extraordinarily low relative

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Speaker 4: to you know, what they were, let's say in the

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Speaker 4: nineties or or in the early two thousands. And it's

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Speaker 4: also important to understand that when you hear about crime

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Speaker 4: statistics in the news, it's really only seven or so

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Speaker 4: crimes that the police track and report to the FBI.

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Speaker 4: And even then most people don't understand that, Like forty

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Speaker 4: percent of police departments don't even report that data to

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Speaker 4: the FBI. So a lot of it is just like

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Speaker 4: FBI statistical estimates based on the police reporting like a

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Speaker 4: few what they call index crimes. So what is left

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Speaker 4: out of crime statistics, Well, almost all the crimes committed

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Speaker 4: by police themselves, almost all the crimes committed by jail

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Speaker 4: and prison guards, almost all white collar crime. Right, So

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Speaker 4: while you hear a lot about theft in the news

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Speaker 4: and retail theft and shoplifting, what don't the police report,

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Speaker 4: and what doesn't FBI report when it's talking about crime

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Speaker 4: rates tax evasion or wage theft. You know, and wage

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Speaker 4: theft is about fifty billion dollars a year, So that

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Speaker 4: right there is three times all of the crime that

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Speaker 4: FBI is reporting is property crime combined. And so you

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Speaker 4: just have to understand the way the media talks about

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Speaker 4: crime stistics is really messed up on like a lot

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Speaker 4: of different levels.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wage theft and tax evasion being two crimes that

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Speaker 2: the general populace, the readership, the intended audience of the

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Speaker 2: mainstream media are the victims of Those are the ones

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Speaker 2: that get ignored, The ones that that's not breathlessly reported,

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Speaker 2: are the ones where Procter and Gamble is, you know,

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Speaker 2: is the victim, and that's that that's treated as like

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Speaker 2: the more important crime.

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Speaker 4: And I think this is really important lesson for people,

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Speaker 4: Like you can really mislead people by giving them a

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Speaker 4: few anecdotes. So for example, if you have like a

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Speaker 4: week of news stories, even if the anecdotes you're you're

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Speaker 4: giving are true, like you report on seven true examples

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Speaker 4: of shoplifting from Walgreens every night, you give the people

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Speaker 4: the impression that shoplifting is a huge problem. It might

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Speaker 4: be increasing even, Right. It's kind of like if I

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Speaker 4: compiled a video of every shot Michael Jordan missed in

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Speaker 4: his career and put.

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Speaker 2: Them all together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you could create the impression that Michael Jordan is

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Speaker 4: a terrible basketball player just by taking all of the

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Speaker 4: shots which he actually did miss right, if you don't

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Speaker 4: show the other shots, right, And what the news is

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Speaker 4: doing is something very similar. It's not showing the public

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Speaker 4: any of the tax evasion, or any of the wage steps,

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Speaker 4: or any of the pollution violations. Right. There's one hundred

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Speaker 4: thousand violations that we know about of the Clean Water

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Speaker 4: Act every year. It causes enormous death, cancer, rotting teeth,

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Speaker 4: children suffering from a variety of different preventable illnesses, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: Those are not treated as urgent. And so there's this,

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Speaker 4: and they're not reported on the daily news. And so

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Speaker 4: just through through its reporting of anecdote, even if those

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Speaker 4: anecdotes are actually happening and true, the news can distort

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Speaker 4: our much deeper truths about like what kinds of activity

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Speaker 4: is really harmful to us? And shoplifting is a good example,

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Speaker 4: because tax evasion is about a trillion dollars a year,

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Speaker 4: so that's you know, sixty times every property crime the

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Speaker 4: FBI reports combined, And yet everyone is freaking out of

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Speaker 4: our shoplifting and nobody is thinking about tax evasion, right.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the shoplifting thing is still like vibrating

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Speaker 1: through like my childhood neighborhood. Like there are people who

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Speaker 1: like lived in the neighborhood I grow u that are

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Speaker 1: still harping about like, well, you know, there's nothing at

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Speaker 1: CBS anymore because all the shoplifting and like we need

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Speaker 1: to have like a neighborhood meeting about this. And it's like, dude,

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Speaker 1: this is like a two year old conservative take on

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Speaker 1: crime that you're like now being like it's happening, and

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Speaker 1: we it's the scores of our community at the moment.

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Speaker 1: But like, I'm curious for this stuff that you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: Like where is there like a centralized place where you

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Speaker 1: can see like where like DA's or something are reporting

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Speaker 1: things like wage theft or like in a centralized place

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Speaker 1: so I can be like, well, what about this stuff?

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Speaker 1: Or is that more just having to be really vigilant

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Speaker 1: about what is actually coming out of the courts and

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Speaker 1: things like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, one of the big scandals of

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Speaker 4: our time is that the agencies who are supposed to

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Speaker 4: be investigating a lot of these crimes have been completely decimated. So,

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Speaker 4: for example, the federal antitrust regulators have been completely decimated.

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Speaker 4: They're far fewer regulators even looking into whether companies are

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Speaker 4: doing price fixing and doing all kinds of illegal stuff

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Speaker 4: that drives up the costs of goods for consumers, et

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Speaker 4: cetera than there were forty years ago. We have fewer

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Speaker 4: people investigating that stuff now. And the same is true

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Speaker 4: with the so called War on drugs, right they shifted

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Speaker 4: a huge percentage of federal agents who were working on

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Speaker 4: things like white collar crime, fraud, corporate fraud, tax of asion,

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Speaker 4: et cetera, and they shifted government resources toward the drug war.

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Speaker 4: And so there's just fewer people actually even looking for

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Speaker 4: the crimes that are committed by wealthy people. And that

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Speaker 4: means that unfortunately, a lot of the crimes that are

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Speaker 4: happening just like aren't even brought into the legal system

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Speaker 4: at all, and so they're not being reported by prosecutors,

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Speaker 4: not being reported by the police at all, and so

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Speaker 4: we rely on nonprofit organizations really good investigative journalism. Some

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Speaker 4: times the government will will itself investigate in some ways

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Speaker 4: that shed some light on some of these things, and

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Speaker 4: you have to cobble it all together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it's yeah, I mean he realized just how much

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Speaker 1: of that is just to kind of emphasize what, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of the status quo wants to even define as crime.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, don't look at that stuff, because then

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Speaker 1: all these other people get caught up in our perception

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Speaker 1: of what criminality is, and we're absolutely don't want to

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Speaker 1: do that. It's to actually just be like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's the shoplifters. It's these kinds of things that are

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Speaker 1: big capital see crime that we need to worry about.

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Speaker 1: When yeah, so like everyone's saying, these are the ones,

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Speaker 1: like these other things are the things that affect the

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Speaker 1: everyday person on a much deeper level.

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Speaker 2: Were they locked up old spice at CBS? Also, we're

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Speaker 2: the victims there. I do not want to wait fifteen

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Speaker 2: extra seconds to get my old spice dewd ran out

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Speaker 2: of the plastic case.

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Speaker 1: But it embarrassing to say I want.

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Speaker 4: To us a victim anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, we're just gonna pretend you didn't say that,

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Speaker 2: because what about acts? And it's a combination of acts

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Speaker 2: and old spice.

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Speaker 1: I mix it together. It's a home blend.

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Speaker 2: The axe is the new, the old spice is the old,

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Speaker 2: and that's why I smell great to myself. Not everybody agrees,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it's a great how what crimes we talk about,

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Speaker 2: what crimes we actually report, is a great way to

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Speaker 2: understand what our society actually values. And it seems like

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Speaker 2: this is yet another place where we find out that

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Speaker 2: we value corporations and corporate earning more than individual human

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Speaker 2: beings and individual human lives.

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Speaker 4: But I think it's important to understand that the people

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Speaker 4: who tell you that they are like tough on crime,

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Speaker 4: law and order people, what those people are actually meaning

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Speaker 4: by that is they are sort of ruthlessly punishing some

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Speaker 4: crimes committed by some people some of the time and

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Speaker 4: gleefully ignoring other crimes committed by other people at other times.

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Speaker 4: So like in general, when you hear someone who's tough

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Speaker 4: on crime and law and order, what they mean is

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Speaker 4: like they want to enforce a lot of very minor

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Speaker 4: crimes against the worst people in our society, and they

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Speaker 4: want to create conditions under which wealthy people can violate

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Speaker 4: the law with virtual impunity. That's what law and order

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Speaker 4: actually has meant in the US political system for the

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Speaker 4: last fifty years.

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Speaker 1: Right right, That kind of like what you're talking about

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Speaker 1: sort of remind me another thing you posted about about

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Speaker 1: representing these kids in Flint and just sort of how

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Speaker 1: again another example of like just sort of really going

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Speaker 1: after vulnerable people in society for other people to make

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Speaker 1: a ton of money, where like these kids, and how

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Speaker 1: courts have been set up to sort of keep children

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Speaker 1: from visiting parents that are awaiting trial and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that case and

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Speaker 1: sort of what's happening there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so all over the country over the last ten years,

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Speaker 4: and I want to say up front, this happened well

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Speaker 4: before the COVID pandemic, but you know, over the last

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Speaker 4: ten years or so, many hundreds and maybe even thousands.

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Speaker 4: It's really hard because it's hard to count, but many

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Speaker 4: hundreds of jails at least have eliminated the ability of

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Speaker 4: children to at their parents. And we started getting complaints

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Speaker 4: about this from our clients all over the country, saying

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Speaker 4: I'm not able to hold my child's hand. We got

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Speaker 4: complaints from children saying I want to look into my

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Speaker 4: mom's eyes or or hug my dad. So we started

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Speaker 4: looking into what's going on, and we started looking at

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Speaker 4: the contracts that these jails are signing. It turned out

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Speaker 4: that starting a little over ten years ago, there was

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Speaker 4: all these contracts with jail, the jails and private equity

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Speaker 4: owned multi billion day.

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Speaker 2: We have to have a drink because they're the scourge

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Speaker 2: of this country.

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Speaker 4: It's really remarkable. Honestly, when I talked to even other

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Speaker 4: people in private equity, nobody can quite believe what I'm

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Speaker 4: about to tell you. But the two largest jail and

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Speaker 4: prison telecommunications companies are owned by private equity, and they've

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Speaker 4: created a situation where sheriffs get up what is essentially

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Speaker 4: a kickback to ban children from visiting their parents in jail.

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Speaker 4: How does this work? Well, the theory is if you

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Speaker 4: stop kids from having free in person visits with their parents,

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Speaker 4: families will be so desperate that they'll spend more money

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Speaker 4: on phone and video calls into the jail. And of course,

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Speaker 4: these companies negotiate monopoly contracts with each sheriff and each

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Speaker 4: jail to charge exorbitant rates per minute for phone and

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Speaker 4: video calls.

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Speaker 2: So the rates are like those nine hundred numbers from

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Speaker 2: the eighties. They're like crazy, the amount that they just

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Speaker 2: gouge people. That's unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: And keep in mind that most people who are in

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Speaker 4: jail in the United States are awaiting trial. They're not convicted,

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Speaker 4: they're presumed innocent. And because the United States and the

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Speaker 4: Philippines are the only two countries in the world that

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Speaker 4: use a for profit commercial money bail industry tree to

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Speaker 4: determine who's in jail and who's not, in much of

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Speaker 4: the country, most of the people that we're talking about

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Speaker 4: in these jails are only in jail because they can't

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Speaker 4: pay a certain amount of cash bail to get released.

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Speaker 4: It not because any judge has found them to be

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Speaker 4: dangerous or risk of flight or anything like that. So

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Speaker 4: we already are taking the poorest people in our society,

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Speaker 4: and then we're taking the children of the poorest people

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Speaker 4: in our society, and we're saying to them, we're gonna

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Speaker 4: jail you because you're poor, and then we're gonna prevent

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Speaker 4: your children from visiting you, and prevent you from visiting

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Speaker 4: your mom and your dad for free. And if you

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Speaker 4: want to see them or or talk to them. You're

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Speaker 4: gonna have to pay exorbitant rates to do sort of

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Speaker 4: a really really shitty equivalent of FaceTime or phone call.

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Speaker 4: And you know, it has all these glitches, it freezes,

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Speaker 4: it's not private, it's all surveiled and recorded. So now

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Speaker 4: we've got these huge databases of the faces and voices

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Speaker 4: of hundreds of thousands of children across the country that

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Speaker 4: can be monetized. It can be AI algorithms can be

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Speaker 4: trained on these children's faces and voices that can then

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Speaker 4: be sold. We don't have a good sense of what

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Speaker 4: they're doing with all this, but it's all part of

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Speaker 4: a scheme to kind of profit off of family separation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like in some places too, Like aren't there

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Speaker 1: like sort of like tablets that these companies create, So

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Speaker 1: they're like, yes, if you want to download music, like

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Speaker 1: that's another fee we can collect. Like they've found a

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Speaker 1: way to sort of like monetize sort of all of

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Speaker 1: this information that goes in and out from prisoners.

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Speaker 4: And a lot of people don't know that. You know,

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Speaker 4: people have heard of private prisons, but what people don't

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Speaker 4: realize is public jails and prisons everything in them essentially

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Speaker 4: is now privatized for profit. So there's tablets if you

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Speaker 4: want to if you want to watch something or or

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Speaker 4: read an email, you have to pay for stamps to

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Speaker 4: send an email. A lot of places they're not even

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Speaker 4: getting physical mail anymore, so you can't even send your

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Speaker 4: mommy or dad a card or a letter. They get

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Speaker 4: scanned and then and you have to pay to review

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Speaker 4: them on your tablet that they give you food, toilet paper, soap,

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Speaker 4: medical care. You know, you want to see a nurse

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Speaker 4: or a doctor, you've got to pay for it.

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 4: The entire system here is, you know, they don't give

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Speaker 4: you blankets. It's very very cold. If you want an

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Speaker 4: extra blanket, you've got to pay for it. Essentially, you know,

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Speaker 4: prisons in jails are huge cash cows or local state

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Speaker 4: and county governments and for the companies that are sort

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Speaker 4: of parasitic on these governments. And so we're representing an

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Speaker 4: amazing group of children in Michigan who are trying to

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Speaker 4: make a very simple argument. And that argument is that

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Speaker 4: in our society, under our constitution, and given our history

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Speaker 4: as a civilization and as a country, children have the

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Speaker 4: right to hug their parents. Children have the right to

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Speaker 4: be around their parents. They have the right to hold

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Speaker 4: their hand, they have the right to talk to them,

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Speaker 4: and if the government wants to take away that right,

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Speaker 4: it has to have really good reasons. So maybe there

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Speaker 4: are good reasons and in any particular case, and but

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Speaker 4: the government can't just ban all children from visiting their parents,

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Speaker 4: and so exactly, and that's what these kids. These kids

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Speaker 4: are really courageous and it was a real honor. A

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Speaker 4: couple of weeks ago, I was in court with my

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Speaker 4: colleagues and we were arguing the case against the telecom

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Speaker 4: companies and the sheriff, and the courtroom was just packed

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Speaker 4: with kids, and packed with elderly people too, because you know,

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Speaker 4: another sort of silent thing that happens a lot in

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Speaker 4: our society is that older people who's whose own children

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Speaker 4: are incarcerated as adults, who depend on their children to

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Speaker 4: take care of them in their life, to you know,

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Speaker 4: who are getting who may be relatively lonely, who may

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Speaker 4: need help navigating whether it's how to sign up for

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Speaker 4: health care or how to understand things that are happening.

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Speaker 4: Like there's a lot of older people too who who

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Speaker 4: are really harmed by the inability to communicate with their

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Speaker 4: loved ones and they're jailed for a few months or

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Speaker 4: for years anyway. So there's a lot of older people

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Speaker 4: that showed up too, saying we have this right too.

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Speaker 4: It's not just it's not just children, it's it's families

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Speaker 4: really have the right to communicate with each other, and

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Speaker 4: if you're gonna take away that right, you better have

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Speaker 4: really good reasons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's wild too, Like I was just reading that

400
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Speaker 1: one of the like one of the Platinum equity one

401
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Speaker 1: of these private equity firms that is backing another one

402
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Speaker 1: of these telecoms companies that deal with prisons eventive. It's

403
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Speaker 1: like that guy who owns that who runs that firm,

404
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Speaker 1: is the guy who owns the Detroit Pistons. And it's

405
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Speaker 1: just wild to see, like how people in our society are, like,

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Speaker 1: it's the it's the great owner of our beloved basketball

407
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Speaker 1: team who's profiting off of this like heinous industry at

408
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Speaker 1: the moment, it's really it's like dystopia. It's just like

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Speaker 1: so yeah, and it's just so right in front of

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Speaker 1: your face. Yeah yeah, And to the idea that it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're going to commodify the desire of families that their

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Speaker 1: need to communicate with each other through this already already

413
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Speaker 1: exploitative system that we've created to extract even more money

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Speaker 1: from people.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break and we'll come back. We'll

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Speaker 2: keep talking about this. We'll be right back, and we're back.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, oh yeah, So I was just saying, so alec,

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Speaker 1: I know, like there's only like a handful of states,

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Speaker 1: right that have actually done away with this system where

420
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Speaker 1: it's like, actually, no, we need we can't. This can't

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Speaker 1: be a thing that people are profiting off of. Like

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Speaker 1: I know, I think Minnesota was maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: more recent states to say, like, we're doing away with

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Speaker 1: this system. Is this is kind of I'm imagining that

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Speaker 1: is sort of the at least that is the path

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Speaker 1: towards progress, is for the states to like sort of

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Speaker 1: outlaw this practice within their own prison systems.

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Speaker 4: I think there are a few things at different levels.

429
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Speaker 4: So first of all, people like that owner of the

430
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Speaker 4: Detroit Pistons should not be profiting off of monetizing human contact.

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Speaker 4: And it's been alarming, honestly to see the silence of

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Speaker 4: the NBA and a lot of the players around this.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure how many of the players know about it,

434
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Speaker 4: and that one of the goals here is is to

435
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Speaker 4: you know, make sure that we're talking about these issues

436
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 4: openly and that people should be talking about these issues

437
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 4: so that we can make social decisions collectively about what

438
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 4: kind of policies we want. And so I think to

439
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 4: answer your question about what kind of policies we want,

440
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 4: like you know, I think at different levels of generality,

441
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 4: these policies could be Yes. Of course, companies shouldn't be

442
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 4: profiting off of monopoly priced, exorbitant phone and video calls

443
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 4: for people in jail in prison. So there are a

444
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 4: lot of cities in particular around the country that are

445
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 4: starting to make calls free. There are some state prison

446
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 4: systems that are that are making calls free. There's an

447
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 4: organization called Worth Rises that is leading a lot of

448
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 4: that advocacy and they're really great. But at a deeper level,

449
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 4: we have to be asking much more difficult questions about

450
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 4: how did this system of incarceration get so big? Right?

451
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 4: I mean, this country is putting black people in jail

452
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 4: cells at six times the rate of South Africa at

453
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 4: the height of apartheid. You know, we're jailing all people

454
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 4: in the US like six times more than we did

455
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 4: even just fifty years ago. And so when you do that,

456
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 4: there's a lot of opportunity to make money, a lot

457
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 4: of people's jobs start depending on it. And one of

458
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 4: the consequences of this is that every single year, several

459
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 4: million kids have a mom or a dad or a

460
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 4: parent who are incarcerated. And as a society, we have

461
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: not reckoned with the incredible effects that has in the short,

462
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 4: medium and long term on trauma, on child development, on

463
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 4: future crime, on future economic possibilities, etcetera, mental health. And

464
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 4: so I think a deeper reform is asking much more

465
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 4: profound questions like why are all these families being separated

466
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 4: in the first place, Are there really good reasons that

467
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 4: these parents are in jail, that these children are being jailed,

468
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 4: that these families are being separated, or are there other

469
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 4: ways that we can address underlying problems that actually don't

470
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 4: involve family separation. So one of our goals with our

471
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 4: case is not just eliminating the profit hearing and allowing

472
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 4: free visits, et cetera, et cetera, but it's actually thinking

473
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 4: about what kinds of government policies are better for families,

474
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 4: are better for public health than mass incarceration, right.

475
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, question we're still wrestling with. Yeah.

476
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: Are we seeing any positive like progressive reforms to policing

477
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: and criminal justice around the country that you feel kind

478
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 2: of encouraged by? I know there were, you know, some

479
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: initial ideas a Denver program that route nine to one

480
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: one calls to an unarmed response team, like when the

481
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 2: potential offense was not violent. Are you what are you

482
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: hearing that is actually kind of giving you hope in

483
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,959
Speaker 2: terms of just reform to this horrific system.

484
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 4: I don't want to sugarcoat it. We're at a pretty

485
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 4: bleak time because both the Democratic Party and Republican Party

486
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 4: have embraced this copaganda kind of fear mongering punishment is

487
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: the answer to everything mantra, and so as a result,

488
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: the environment for reform has become really poisoned. But I think,

489
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 4: without being too pollyannish, I think there are some really

490
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 4: incredible things happening that are very exciting to me. At

491
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 4: least Number one, you have to understand the incarceration rate

492
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 4: has gone down significantly in the last ten years. I

493
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 4: think we're at a moment where there are a lot

494
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 4: of people that want to start incarcerating more people again.

495
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 4: But you know, the incarceration rate has gotten down at

496
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 4: least ten percent overall, So that's a couple hundred thousand

497
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 4: people that were imprisoned who are not now. There's been

498
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 4: some really profound beneficial effects on poor families and black

499
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 4: families because of that, and we can't, you know, we

500
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 4: shouldn't gloss over that. Even though the rhetoric and the

501
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 4: narrative is getting a lot worse, and the Democrats and

502
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: President Biden are proposing one hundred thousand new police and

503
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 4: massive increases in police surveillance and border patrol and the

504
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 4: militarization of police, and things are getting relatively bleak. But

505
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: the movement to reduce the size and power of punishment

506
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 4: bureaucracy and the company's profiting off it over the last

507
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 4: ten years has had some successes. Another success is we've

508
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 4: seen in a number of places reforms to the cash

509
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 4: bail system. There are you know, cities like Los Angeles.

510
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 4: There are places like Californi, generally Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey,

511
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: New York is a great example. Dramatic increases in pre

512
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 4: trial release, reduction in the use of cash to determine

513
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 4: who's incarcerated. And so we are seeing, like, you know,

514
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of people who would have been detained

515
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 4: because they're poor every year in the United States who

516
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 4: are now being released. And that's another thing to be

517
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 4: really encouraged by.

518
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: For people who aren't familiar with the cash bail system.

519
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 2: I mean, the people are held because they don't have

520
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: access to money like that, that's straight up. You are

521
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: jailed because you're poor in a lot of places in

522
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: the country. And there's been a pushback against that. That

523
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: is it sounds like we're seeing some results.

524
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: So that's great.

525
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's a lot of propaganda about it, right,

526
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: So we know from this is one of the most

527
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 4: rigorously studied areas in the criminal law. We know that

528
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 4: releasing more people prior to trial actually reduces crime because

529
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: when you jail people for even a few days or weeks,

530
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 4: they lose their jobs, they interrupt their mental health medication,

531
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 4: they sometimes lose their kids, they lose their housing, and

532
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 4: so when you destabilize someone's life, you actually make them

533
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: more likely to commit crime. So if you want to

534
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 4: reduce crime, you actually need to be reducing the use

535
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: of pre trial jailing. And so we're seeing that and

536
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: in some of our cases. For example, our case challenging

537
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 4: the misdemeanor money bail system in Houston, Texas has released

538
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 4: over one hundred thousand people of the lasts for seven years.

539
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 4: And researchers from around the country and Duke University, University

540
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 4: of Houston, and other places are studying that University of

541
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 4: Pennsylvania and what they're showing is remarkable. Not only has

542
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 4: the county saved tens of millions of dollars and the

543
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 4: economy has saved hundreds of millions of dollars, but crime

544
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 4: is going down as a result of the decision to

545
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 4: just stop jailing people in low level cases because they

546
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 4: can't pay one hundred and two hundred bucks.

547
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, the thing that I feel like i've heard is

548
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: catch and release these li role activists DA's are, you know,

549
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: contributing to the a rise in crime. So that's great

550
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: to hear. I just wish it was being more widely reported.

551
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like climate SciTE denial. There's a whole industry

552
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 4: for decades that was relatively successful, led by the petrochemical

553
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 4: industry that so doubt over policies to reduce emissions, and

554
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 4: we're seeing the same thing with the bail industry, and

555
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 4: police and police unions and punishment bureaucrats generally, because if

556
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 4: you dramatically reduce the people in incarcerated pre trial, you

557
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 4: actually do something much more profound. You take away a

558
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 4: lot of the leverage that the system has to get

559
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 4: people to plead guilty, because most of the guilty pleas

560
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 4: in this country are caused by people being incarcerated and

561
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 4: just desperate to get out right, so they come to

562
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: court and they're given a deal, like, if you plead

563
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 4: guilty today, you won't investigate your case, you won't get

564
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 4: a lawyer to fight it. You know, you won't you know,

565
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 4: get a trial in front of jurors, but you will

566
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: get out up today and you will owe us a fine.

567
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 4: And this is how the system turns.

568
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 5: Right.

569
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 4: But if you can get people out right away and

570
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 4: they can fight their case, a lot of people don't

571
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 4: want to plead guilty because it turns out that the

572
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 4: police and prosecutors can't prove a large percentage of the

573
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 4: cases that they bring, and so the people that actually

574
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: fight their cases have pretty good results. We're seeing like

575
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 4: if you look at Houston what used to be, you know,

576
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 4: eighty four percent of people pleading guilty in the median

577
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 4: of three days in misdemeanor cases. Now, in those same

578
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: low level misdemeanor cases, only about a third of people

579
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 4: are getting convicted after they're arrested because they're out and

580
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 4: they can investigate their cases and it turns out like

581
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 4: the cops didn't have strong evidence against them, or the

582
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: prosecutor can't possibly prosecute all these cases. So I think

583
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 4: it's just it's important to understand that there are kind

584
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: of downstream consequences to things like whether we jail people

585
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 4: pre trial or not.

586
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. And I guess also, while we're talking about

587
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: copaganda in that whole the media's role in that. I

588
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: you had a really interesting thread, Like I said, we'll

589
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: have to talk about the New York Times, which is

590
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: one of your favorite topics on Twitter, and one of

591
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: my favorite things to see you tweet about was Nicholas

592
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: Christoph's really wacky column about immigration, where it's like it's

593
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: okay when I did it, but now I'm thinking maybe

594
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: not so much for other people. And like this is

595
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: kind of on the heels of like you're seeing articles

596
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: about like, yeah, democrats agree that something had to happen

597
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: over at the border. But like, you know what, but

598
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: the asylum thing maybe not a great not a great moment.

599
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: This Nicholas christoph like column almost makes it feel like

600
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: it's like, hey, liberal, it's okay if we're just a

601
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: little bit racist this time, you know, like it's that's okay,

602
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: Like have you I mean, like right now, I think

603
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: it's become such a huge issue talking about immigration, especially

604
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: with the election coming up in Biden. You know, whether

605
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: he's moving to the right or just doing what any

606
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: person in power does to maintain the status quo, that

607
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: it completely a different debate or observation, But like, how

608
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: do you see this conversation sort of moving given that

609
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: you have people like you know, Christoff at the New

610
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: York Times sort of writing this kind of nonsense that

611
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: just sort of obscures like what the issues are and

612
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: like maybe what America's actual role is in changing immigration

613
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: and how to create a little bit more equity outside

614
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: of our own borders.

615
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think Christoff is obviously a very

616
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 4: silly person, but I think it's important to you know,

617
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: you can learn a lot by looking at what kinds

618
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 4: of opinions appear in the New York Times. Because the

619
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 4: role of the New York Times is to get educated, wealthy,

620
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: generally liberal minded people who want to think of themselves

621
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 4: as well informed and well meaning, to get them to

622
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: support stuff that is extremely violent and contrary to their

623
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: values and contrary to evidence a lot of the time,

624
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 4: and unjustifiable really, And so there's sort of layers and

625
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 4: layers of propaganda that The Times kind of spews that

626
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 4: I try to dissect in helpful and practical ways on

627
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 4: social media and obviously in the Copaganda book that I'm

628
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: publishing in a few months. But I think just to

629
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 4: start with christophin immigration, this is an area that has

630
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 4: been widely studied. There's a really important study that came

631
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 4: out last year from Oxford in the UK which showed

632
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 4: that when liberal and center left political parties adopt the

633
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 4: rhetoric and even the policies of the right wing on immigration,

634
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 4: they actually lose votes, they become less popular, they do

635
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 4: worse in elections. That's a really profound I think it

636
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 4: rings true, obviously, but they've quantified and studied this, and

637
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 4: you know, one of the things that this means is

638
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 4: when you've got someone like Biden who who is adopting

639
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 4: more and more outrageous kind of policies and immigration that

640
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: are more and more indistinguishable with the far right is advocating.

641
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 4: It's very disorienting and confusing for a lot of voters.

642
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 4: And for voters who are persuaded by all of that,

643
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 4: what the research shows is that they're gonna if they're

644
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 4: persuaded by that and they like that, they're going to

645
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 4: vote for the real thing, not the political party of

646
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 4: the person who they think is approximating that thing. And

647
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 4: also a lot of people who would be excited about

648
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 4: in organizing for Biden lose the energy and the momentum

649
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 4: to fight for him if he is trying to be

650
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 4: a bad approximation of the far right. And so this

651
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: general set of studies, which is not just studying the

652
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 4: US but studies center left political parties across Europe, is

653
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 4: a really important insight and I think it helps to

654
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 4: explain why the Democrats have been so unsuccessful over the

655
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 4: last couple of tamescades when they try to play into

656
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 4: the underlying mythologies and narratives of the far right. So

657
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 4: I think it's a really bad strategy for the Democrats.

658
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 4: If you care about Democrats winning, it's a really bad

659
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 4: strategy to sort of like validate the myths like immigrants

660
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 4: are hurting our you know, depressing our wages and and

661
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 4: costing us jobs and all these things.

662
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: Christas say, right, yeah, they're actually good for the economy

663
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 2: and less likely to commit crime than other people.

664
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, I digress.

665
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 4: No, I mean, but like that's the thing, Like, by

666
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 4: by adopting these policies like Christoph Biden others, they they validate.

667
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 4: They make people think that these right wing talking points

668
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 4: must be true or else why would these self professed

669
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 4: liberals be doing this. And so it not only like

670
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 4: makes it harder for people to get excited about voting

671
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: for Biden and pushes people towards the right, but it

672
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 4: also validates the underlying arguments the right wing is making

673
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 4: in people's minds.

674
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, this quote, in particular from your kind of thread

675
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 2: on Christoph you said, for many liberals, the destruction wrought

676
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: by global capitalism, it's an equality, it's starvation, it's ecological degradation,

677
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: it's war, it's authoritarian corruption, et cetera, is taken as

678
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: a given. Like that feels right, Like, it feels like

679
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: a lot of the so called liberal perspectives that I

680
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: hear on social media or in the mainstream media. They're

681
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: basically conceding a lot of the shit that like far

682
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: right people are saying. So like, how are you going

683
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: to get any enthusiasm or energy behind your messaging when

684
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: you're basically like, yeo, they what they're saying is basically right, though,

685
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: like we just like are only pretending it's not. But like,

686
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: I don't know, It's like I always talk about how

687
00:37:54,040 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: they they treat idealism and progressivism as childish essentially, like

688
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 2: it feels like their overall strategy.

689
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 4: I think one of the most powerful forms of propaganda

690
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 4: is the type of propaganda that makes us feel like

691
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 4: a better world is not possible, right, And that's when

692
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 4: when you when you can achieve hopelessness in a population,

693
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 4: you can do a lot of things to them. And

694
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 4: so the theme underlying a lot of what Christoph has

695
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 4: been writing recently, which you know, unfortunately now people send

696
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 4: me because I've written these threats, so I've got to

697
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 4: read a lot of this.

698
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: Christ just dropped, Yeah, exactly.

699
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 4: And you know, it's like watching a small child emerge

700
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 4: from the wilderness having ever been you know, or having

701
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 4: been raised by right wing wolves. He he's just sort

702
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 4: of regurgitating random quotations and lines that don't make any sense.

703
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 4: And and and I think the core of it all

704
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 4: is like the world is really messed up. Global warming

705
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 4: is happening, all these other countries have these problems. We're

706
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 4: going to omit the part about how, you know, the

707
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 4: role the United States is playing and creating those problems.

708
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 4: But we're not going to even talk about, like what

709
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 4: might a different set of policies be to reduce global inequality,

710
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 4: to reduce global violence, to reduce global starvation, to improve

711
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 4: the environmental sustainability in other parts of the world. We're

712
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 4: don't even talk about any of those things. What we're

713
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 4: going to do is we're going to build walls and

714
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 4: we're going to protect our castle and everyone who made

715
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: it in before you know, November seventeenth, you know, two

716
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 4: thousand and eight, or you know March twenty seventh, you know,

717
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety four. Depending on how how right wing you are,

718
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 4: you have different ideas of like what counts as a

719
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 4: pure American or what state? Yeah exactly, yeah, you see,

720
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 4: now India has and this is not just the United States, right,

721
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 4: the sort of right wing fascist ruling party in India

722
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 4: has a new set of laws that unless if you're Muslim,

723
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 4: unless you you entered India in this sitey of documents

724
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 4: showing that you entered prior to a particular day in

725
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy one, then you're no longer considered Indian citizen.

726
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 4: You're subject to mass detention and deportation, even if you

727
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 4: and your parents are all born in India. The United

728
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 4: States is doing something similar, and the idea is, you know,

729
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 4: we have to close off our borders rather than work

730
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 4: together with other people in the world to make the

731
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 4: whole world better. And inherent in this is a deep

732
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 4: form of not just racism and jingoism, but a really

733
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 4: powerful conception that conservatives have as a center of the worldview,

734
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 4: and a lot of liberals don't want to acknowledge it

735
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 4: as being very central to their own view as well,

736
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: but this idea that some people's lives are worth more

737
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 4: than others, and that is at the core of US

738
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 4: foreign policy, and anybody who talks about things like open orders,

739
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 4: who talks about things like, you know, addressing the problems

740
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 4: of the world holistically, for impoverished people and vulnerable people,

741
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 4: for animals and plants the world over, and those people

742
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 4: are are ridiculed and pillary does sort of naive dreamers

743
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 4: and impractical people. And I think what Christoph is doing

744
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 4: here is he's giving a lot of liberal people permission

745
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 4: to think and believe those things because someone else who

746
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 4: says they're liberal is saying them right, right. It's more

747
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 4: appetizing when Christoph uses these words in the New York Times,

748
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 4: and it is when Trump says something like lock them up,

749
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 4: build the wall, right.

750
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

751
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like kind of the difference like when Trump's

752
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: in office, like the New York Times is like racists

753
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: are people too, and then like when Biden's office, When

754
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: Biden's in office, the New York Times like, look, it's

755
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: okay if we're just a little racist as a tree,

756
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Because it's always at the

757
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: end of the day, Yeah, it's just about sort of

758
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: maintaining that sort of status quo. And I think because

759
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: like American imperialism is sort of like at the top

760
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: of that, like why why bother to examine what the

761
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: actions are of the United States as it relates to

762
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: like immigration. And I always think, like being someone who

763
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: grew up in la and like all the handring about

764
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: like MS thirteen. I'm like, have you gone back a

765
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: little bit to understand where like why we have MS thirteen.

766
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: It's because of the US government's intervention and backing, like

767
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: right wing groups in El Salvador during their civil war.

768
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: Yet we just want to treat it like as this

769
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: thing in a vacuum, like, oh my god, these people

770
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: are coming to our borders who we initially deported to

771
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: then create the gang there. But yeah, there's just this

772
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: always not wanting to sort of look at again like

773
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: what the real solutions might be because they always involve

774
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: dismantling these power structures that again the people and medium

775
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: power are meant to uphold. So yeah, it can be

776
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: very frustrating.

777
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: Well, like I know we're losing you now. I feel

778
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: like we could talk to you for three hours, but

779
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 2: where can people find you? Follow you? Here? More from you.

780
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 4: I'm on Twitter at quality ALEC. Who knows how much

781
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 4: longer I'll be there, So I do have a newsletter

782
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 4: called Alex Kopaganda Newsletter. And of course our organization is

783
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 4: really amazing. There's over thirty people at the organization doing

784
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 4: incredible civil rights work. It's called Civil Rights Core Corps

785
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 4: and you can find Civil Rights Core on all the

786
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 4: major social media places. You can find us on our

787
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 4: website civil rights core dot org. And then at the

788
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 4: beginning of next year, I'll be out all the new

789
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 4: book called Copaganda, which talks about all this stuff and

790
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 4: much more detail. Will probably have some kind of a

791
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 4: book tour people can come to in different cities and

792
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 4: just deepen the conversation that we have about how the

793
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 4: media talks about things like safety and crime and justice.

794
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 4: And I'm looking forward to talking with people all over

795
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 4: about these important issues because we're entering a period of

796
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: rising authoritarian and this stuff is more important than ever.

797
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Well, thank you for doing the work that

798
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: you're doing, and thank you so much for coming on.

799
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, would love to have you back again as

800
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: soon as you have some free time. We are miles

801
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: and I are going to take a quick break and

802
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: then we'll come back to close it out.

803
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 5: We'll be right back and we're back.

804
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, wow, Alec carrit cat sanis Yeah, always super enlightening. Yeah,

805
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 2: that had a bunch of other things we wanted to

806
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: get to that we didn't have time to, but yeah,

807
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: just that that image of the inside of jails right now,

808
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: where like you get your iPad and you get your

809
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: like little media device and then they're just like gouging

810
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: you for yeah paid.

811
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: I mean it'll be stuff like, oh, you want to

812
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: listen to us, that's like two dollars and thirty cents, Yeah,

813
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: to listen to one song. You know, it's just again,

814
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: but it's also wild how how often we observe these

815
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: like again, like all of these things we observe and

816
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: these like these systems of oppression, they always eventually come

817
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: for us. And even in this version about like nickel

818
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: and diming prisoners for every part of their existence, like

819
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: you see, just bleed into other parts other industries where

820
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: we thought certain things were just like a given to us,

821
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: right where it's like you know, you know, like the

822
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: shitty version is like you know, an air travel where

823
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, yeah, you're back, we have to charge

824
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: you for your backpack now, right. It's like fuck, I

825
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 1: thought that's part of like the whole thing. But again,

826
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: they found a way to sort of break down and

827
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, find all these smaller opportunities to take more

828
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: and more money from people. And of course they're going

829
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,479
Speaker 1: to start with the most vulnerable groups first, that being

830
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: people that are incarcerated. So yeah, it's that's sort of

831
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: the pattern like continues to repeat all the time. And

832
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: just like yeah, that that that Nicholas Crystal thing is

833
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: just so wild too, because like the whole the whole

834
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: take of that too is sort of like, well I benefited.

835
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: He's like, I wouldn't be here if a family didn't.

836
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 3: You know, what's the word I'm looking for, Not endorsed,

837
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: but like sort of support like our bid to immigrate here.

838
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like but it's like, I don't know if

839
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: I can say that system still works as well, but that's.

840
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: Me and I am better somehow for some reason.

841
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: And I'm from Europe. See my family was from Europe.

842
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: And if you notice what we're doing, it's mostly people

843
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: coming from the Global South, and that's the group that

844
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 1: we It's okay if we are even more discriminate, discriminatory

845
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: towards but yeah, I mean the New York Times, going

846
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: to New York Times.

847
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is nice to hear some like slightly positive

848
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: news about following incarceration rates and you know, so some

849
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 2: of the things where we're actually making progress on cash

850
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 2: bail and stuff like that.

851
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: YEA, well, and I think his point is I think

852
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: it was taken well at least for me, like to

853
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: look at it. How there is still there's an entire

854
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: alternate media universe built on climate change denial that the

855
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: same thing would exist for anything about you know, whether

856
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: whether or not we can improve the sort of human

857
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: caging system we have now or at least obscure any

858
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: progress that's been made that would sort of create additional

859
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: momentum to truly have a reckoning with our caarcial system.

860
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: But yeah, it just takes so much more momentum to

861
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: have a reckoning than it does to like all the

862
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: exploitative capitalistic things that is driving shareholder value aka making

863
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: wealthy people more wealthy. That stuff is the stuff that

864
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: has the momentum, and even if you kill it, it

865
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: will pop back up. Like Jason Boorhies, you know, that's

866
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: the stuff you have to like keep your eye on

867
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 2: to make sure it's dead. Like and whereas like good

868
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: ideas require similarly constant vigilance just to keep alive in

869
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: this country at least at this point. But with people

870
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: like him, you know, out there, I don't know, maybe

871
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 2: maybe one day there'll be some changes.

872
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that. Like in that I was reading an

873
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: article about the the you know, the telecoms private equity thing,

874
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: and one of these people from this guy Paul Wright,

875
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: who's from the Human Rights Defense Center, like to your point,

876
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 1: he describes it about like even when you try and

877
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: address these things, he said, quote, it's kind of like

878
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,439
Speaker 1: stepping on a balloon. You squeeze it down in one

879
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 1: place and it just bulges up somewhere else. And that's

880
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: the problem we've got with these companies.

881
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: Problem or solution. It sounds like private equity is making cheddar.

882
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 2: That's what's cool. No, it sounds private equity. Uh yeah,

883
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: that might be bad.

884
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:49,479
Speaker 1: We'll see.

885
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: We'll continue to keep an eye on it.

886
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: Who's going to be like the first like celeb private

887
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: equity apologist the first.

888
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 2: I'm sure like a lot of companies that are.

889
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: But I mean in this sense to try and get

890
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: in front of it, Like it's like, well, allow me

891
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: to explain why they're charging money. You're like, what the

892
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:07,439
Speaker 1: for real?

893
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? I do. I do feel like private equity knows

894
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: that they're bad guys, which is why like part, like

895
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: a major part of the strategy is to be hidden

896
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 2: behind like fourteen shell companies, you know, yeah, and so

897
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 2: they're just like, yeah, nothing to see here. We did

898
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 2: get this endorsement from the spaceman Kevin Spacey, but we

899
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: think we're gonna keep our powder dry on this one.

900
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 3: Actually yeah, but yeah, I mean it did feel like

901
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: that thing because even when like the Walt, like the

902
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 3: sometimes in like those Red Lobster articles or other articles.

903
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: Like you started to see like CNB seeming like and

904
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: that's a problem with some of these private equity companies

905
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: like oh, oh, oh, well, we're going to be a

906
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: sacrificial lamb, so we can then wash our hands and

907
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: be like we got rid of the bad apple, the

908
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: tree remains.

909
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 2: That's right, the Red Lobster for listeners who haven't listened

910
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: to every single epis So it was undone by, among

911
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: other things, but mainly private equity, private equity, Samuel's, j

912
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 2: CRWE Toys, r us KB Toys. Many brands that you

913
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: friendlies suddenly went bankrupt after being you know, five years

914
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: before being incredibly successful, and household names suddenly go bankrupt.

915
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: Look and see if they got taken over by private equity,

916
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: which is essentially an industry of parasitic companies that come

917
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 2: in charge the company just just find ways to extract

918
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: money from consumers, from employers, from the companies they take over.

919
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 2: And then when the companies go bankrupt, they're still like

920
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: it's still.

921
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: Good for them. They still do great.

922
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So anyways, I guess I guess that's it. Miles.

923
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: Where can people find you? Follow you all that good stuff?

924
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: And is there a work of media that you've been enjoying?

925
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: Find me at Miles of Gray on Twitter and Instagram.

926
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: Find you there, thank you, thank you. And you can

927
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: also find Jack and I on the basketball Podcastles and Boostis.

928
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 3: You can find me talking ninety day fiance on for

929
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 3: twenty Day Fiance a tweet. I haven't really been looking

930
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: at the tweets. I was just mostly her majesty and

931
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 3: I were just finishing Bridgerton.

932
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, how do we do?

933
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it's all right. You know, like there are

934
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: a lot of times I remember the first couple of like,

935
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: oh maybe this could be a storyline, this could be

936
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: but it's it's always just very straightforward, like you know,

937
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 1: period era romance. So yeah, if you're a Bridgerton fan,

938
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: might as well complete it. You might as well complete it.

939
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: There you go. But oh, man, but cresta woof fucking Cresteda. Man,

940
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know how I feel. I don't

941
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: know if I feel bad for her. I feel like

942
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: she should have really got it worse.

943
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 2: But hey, yeah, man, I'm still trying to make up

944
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: my mind.

945
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: But cresseda kawper Man, Yeah, victim or or a villain?

946
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: I think most pressed that name. Yeah, all right.

947
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian

948
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: A couple of things I've been enjoying on Twitter. Have

949
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 2: you seen this video of Elon Musk emerging? I think

950
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 2: wu tang is for the children retweeted it, what what

951
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: are you emerging emerging from a chrystalist? No, just emerging

952
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: at it like being announced and then he comes out

953
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 2: and like it's trying to like, uh I I'll link

954
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 2: off to it in the footnotes. It is Jane at

955
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 2: Jane ost Underscore tweeted he's being called the most juiceless

956
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 2: man on earth and it is a wildly earned description

957
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: of what we're saying. Wait, let me see this now.

958
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 2: I got to see it.

959
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: We can't.

960
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 6: I don't, I can't leave it, hang it, send it

961
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 6: where put it. So he emerges, Oh, ship miles away yourself?

962
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: What was that? Flying jump? Jack? Just what is this?

963
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 7: He's a marionette? Yeah, he's like doing a weird marionette thing.

964
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 7: Oh my god, we're fucked. I can't do it that truly,

965
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 7: it's so disturbing. Y'all have to watch it for yourselves.

966
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, he like comes out he does like a

967
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 2: flying jumping like jump what.

968
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: Do you call that?

969
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, he doesn't jumping jack flash exactly. His shirt lifts

970
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: up over his belly. Then he lands and like does

971
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: a sort of like.

972
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: I got no string still whole. That's like, yeah, that's

973
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: kind of he's doing like a weird puppet rogue puppet dance?

974
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: Is that because he just got his money? Is that

975
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: what that?

976
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: I think? I think this is older than that, But

977
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: I actually, wow, maybe not, maybe maybe it is. Well,

978
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 2: maybe he just got his money and he's that is

979
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 2: how he's going to touchdown dance on all of their graves.

980
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: Oh wow, someone someone put someone, But he's doing an

981
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: X with his body still up. Self righteous dumb ass.

982
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: In response to the person making fun of him. Wow,

983
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 2: keep it, okay, that's cool.

984
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: Wow, Well he should work on a mobility man, It's

985
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: all about mobility. I think you could have got those

986
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: heels further apart, but hey, who am?

987
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 2: I and Harry Hill tweeted a picture of Welsh's grape

988
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: Juice like an old Welsh's grape Juice commercial next to

989
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: the new Welch's vodka transfusion drinks, and they said the

990
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 2: Welsh's grape Juice to Welsh's vodka transfusion pipeline is insane,

991
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 2: and Puck at puck Meat tweeted, pivoting from grape juice

992
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 2: to alcohol is actually the most sane pipeline. It literally

993
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 2: happens on its own.

994
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: Good point. I don't know if I like vodka transfusion.

995
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why it needs to be transfused.

996
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: I don't know why we need like a medical procedure

997
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: to happen. You could just call it vodka.

998
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: Wait, isn't Isn't that like mostly a medical term? Yeah,

999
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: they're just trying to be cool like about that, you

1000
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Yeah, I'm like, you know, it's

1001
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: a vodka transfusion. I'm like, I don't know, dude, I'm

1002
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 1: thinking blood transfusions.

1003
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: Plus, man, I just got a nice transfuse from my

1004
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 2: drinking Yello transfusion.

1005
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus Woway.

1006
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. Brian

1007
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 2: you can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist, at

1008
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have Facebook fan page

1009
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: and a website, Daily zegis dot com where we post

1010
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 2: our episodes and our footnotes where we look off to

1011
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 2: the information that we talked about in today's episode, The

1012
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 2: Most Cursed Celebration You've Ever Seen by Elon Musk.

1013
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:45,360
Speaker 1: We will off so be linking off.

1014
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 2: To that as well as a song that we think

1015
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: you might enjoy. Myles, what song do you think people

1016
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: might enjoy?

1017
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 1: There's an artist, Jessica Pratt who's a fantastic singer songwriter.

1018
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: I like, I remember really with her first album, like

1019
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: maybe this was like in twenty twelve, and then I

1020
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: kind of like would hear about her here and there?

1021
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: But then Brian the producer was like, Yo, have you

1022
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: heard the new Jessica Pratt album? And I've peeped it.

1023
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: She's doing like something. I don't know her. This album,

1024
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: as he describes it, which is a good description, it's

1025
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: like feels like like tracks Nancy Sinatra would have made

1026
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: in her heyday but just didn't. And it has that

1027
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: sort of style of production and her like she has

1028
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: just such an interesting voice in the way she uses

1029
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: it is really dope. So this is a track from

1030
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: her new album which is called Here in the Pitch.

1031
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: This track is called better Hate and this one is

1032
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: by Jessica Pratt.

1033
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: All right, we will link off to that in the footnotes.

1034
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 2: The daily guys to the production of iHeart Radio. For

1035
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio is the iHeartRadio Wrap

1036
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 2: Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1037
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 2: That is gonna do it for us this morning. We're

1038
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 2: back this afternoon though, to tell you what is trending,

1039
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 2: and we will talk to you all then. Bye bye