Speaker 1: Well, TC, it's that time of year again, our favorite
Speaker 1: time of years, spooky season. Yes, turtleneck, scary movies, apple cider, pumpkins,
Speaker 1: apple pie. I want it all. I love the fall time.
Speaker 1: I love spooky season. We've been watching a lot of
Speaker 1: scary movies. Oh yes. This year, though, a lot of
Speaker 1: our spooky content has been centered around love Craft Country.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, a phenomenal show. If you haven't watched
Speaker 1: Lovecraft Country, figure out a way to watch it. It's
Speaker 1: so well done. And even if you don't like that
Speaker 1: type of media, just watch it on mute because Jonathan Majrix,
Speaker 1: what's up? That's a beautiful man. I just told somebody
Speaker 1: to watch the show, and today they said, what is
Speaker 1: going on? I'm so confused? And I was like, that
Speaker 1: means you're only one minute in exactly, because I remember
Speaker 1: I started late. Yes, the kid was watching from the
Speaker 1: day that it dropped, and I was a couple episodes behind.
Speaker 1: She's like, you have to watch this show. In the
Speaker 1: first ten minutes, I was like, what exactly is this?
Speaker 1: I was so confused because it was just unlike really
Speaker 1: anything I'd ever seen before. So this episode we're looking
Speaker 1: at spooky season in a different light. We're looking at
Speaker 1: it through the lens of afrofuturism horror and how it's
Speaker 1: just really changed the perspective of the genre lately. I'm
Speaker 1: TT and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs.
Speaker 1: Let's give people a quick overview about Lovecraft Country. Just
Speaker 1: a fy there are spoilers in this episode, so if
Speaker 1: you haven't finished watching Hip pause, now go finish watching
Speaker 1: and then come back. The major stars we mentioned Jonathan
Speaker 1: Major's journey Smoe, who we all grew up with. With
Speaker 1: every project, it feels like she's leveling up with her talent.
Speaker 1: She's just phenomenal. Ajanu Ellis Woman Withsaku, and then everybody's
Speaker 1: favorite omar Aka Michael K. Williamson and so those are like,
Speaker 1: that's our major cast. But we got to give me
Speaker 1: Sha Green her props. So she developed this from a
Speaker 1: book by Matt Ruff called Lovecraft Country, which was based
Speaker 1: on these horror stories by HP Lovecraft. This is not
Speaker 1: just a TT and Zakia thing. The world is talking
Speaker 1: about Lovecraft Country. It's had crazy social media impressions. Every
Speaker 1: Sunday night, get Ready, everybody's on Twitter is talking about it.
Speaker 1: People are posting about it on Instagram, and I listened
Speaker 1: to Black Girl Watching, which is just about Lovecraft Country
Speaker 1: by Brook Oby, by Brooke Obi. Yes you know we're
Speaker 1: big brook Obie fans here, huge brook Oby fans, Hey, Brook.
Speaker 1: I think Lovecraft Country saw this type of impression in
Speaker 1: the social media space and justin what we could see
Speaker 1: for Tea and this kind of horror and science fiction
Speaker 1: and this amazing blend of art. But we also saw
Speaker 1: it with Watchmen, and we also saw it with Black Panther. Yes,
Speaker 1: get Out absolutely, So that's like futurism slash horror. Right.
Speaker 1: This really made us think a lot about what defines
Speaker 1: these types of works because it's hard to put them
Speaker 1: in a category or in a box, right right, And
Speaker 1: I know that this can't be the first instance of it,
Speaker 1: but it feels like this new renaissance or something like that,
Speaker 1: or like a huge boom in this space. So that
Speaker 1: leads us to today's topics. We're talking all things black horror, afrofuturism,
Speaker 1: and a little bit of sci fi too, and we
Speaker 1: are so excited, so let's jump into the recitation. So
Speaker 1: what do we know? I know, Lovecraft Country has been
Speaker 1: on the tip of everyone's tongues. Absolutely, it's been one
Speaker 1: of these major entry points for people who may not
Speaker 1: have been paying attention. It feels like how people felt
Speaker 1: about Black Panther when they entered the MCU and it
Speaker 1: was like, Hey, black people, Well, we've been here. I've
Speaker 1: been trading X Men card since I was in the
Speaker 1: third grade. What's up? You was trading an X Men card?
Speaker 1: You didn't see them? Oh, I have to send them
Speaker 1: to you. Yes, girl, I have any X Men cards.
Speaker 1: It's okay, but I did like X Men. Storm was
Speaker 1: my favorite because she's black representation. We need that. You
Speaker 1: see how that works. Another thing that I feel like
Speaker 1: we know is that we're seeing a lot more exposure
Speaker 1: and projects that are related to black poor and afrofuturism,
Speaker 1: like Blockbuster movies and these huge, huge TV shows like Lovecraft,
Speaker 1: Country and Watchmen, Jordan Peel's films, Janelle Monet's Dirty Computer.
Speaker 1: Those are kind of contemporary adaptations or representations of afrofuturism.
Speaker 1: Even Black is King right, These all draw heavy on
Speaker 1: what they consider, you know, the afrofuturism can and those influences,
Speaker 1: and those aren't all visual, so we know they exist,
Speaker 1: but we don't really know what they are, you know,
Speaker 1: and that kind of all the stuff we don't know
Speaker 1: and that we want to know, Right So I want
Speaker 1: to know what is afrofuturism, what defines it? What specific
Speaker 1: elements are folks looking for in order to put it
Speaker 1: into that category? And so often I find that we're
Speaker 1: saying afrofuturism and all these other descriptors. How do we
Speaker 1: distinguish afrofuturism from sci fi and black horror? Where does
Speaker 1: one end and the other begin? That's a very good question.
Speaker 1: And then I want to know a timeline of the
Speaker 1: history of afrofuturism, like where did it start? Who were
Speaker 1: the trailblazers, Like who was the first person to think
Speaker 1: of stuff like this? I want to know that. Hmm,
Speaker 1: that's a good question. And because we don't know where
Speaker 1: it started, are there other places where it exists and
Speaker 1: we may not even realize it, I'm sure? And then
Speaker 1: what are the specific themes for afrofuturism. What do we
Speaker 1: need to see in order to know when we see
Speaker 1: something that that is what we are looking at? Like,
Speaker 1: so you mean like kind of some visual cues, some
Speaker 1: things like like when whenever you see something with the
Speaker 1: big eyes and it's around, You're like, oh, that's a
Speaker 1: Disney style, this is Pixar shot. You know, this is
Speaker 1: afrofuturism style. This is horror exactly. And then are you
Speaker 1: know with this big boom are there tropes to avoid?
Speaker 1: I feel like with any genre sometimes people get lazy,
Speaker 1: like are there things that people just fall back on
Speaker 1: and they're just really flat? And we ought to stay
Speaker 1: away from that? And then I just want to know
Speaker 1: the future honestly, With the way that things are looking now,
Speaker 1: I'm like, Yo, what are movies and things and TV
Speaker 1: show is going to look like a year from now,
Speaker 1: two years from now, ten years from now, It's gonna
Speaker 1: be wild. I'm ready for the next show. All right,
Speaker 1: So let's jump into the dissection. Our guest for today's
Speaker 1: lab is doctor Kanetra Brooks.
Speaker 2: Hi, my name is doctor Kanetra Brooks, and I am
Speaker 2: the Audrey and John leslian Dale Chair in Literary Studies
Speaker 2: at Michigan State University.
Speaker 1: First, we wanted to hear doctor Brooks explain what afrofuturism is.
Speaker 1: But before we get into the nitty gritty with that.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about genres first, how are things categorized?
Speaker 2: Literature has multiple genres, drama, romance, and so you get
Speaker 2: in sort of this box and there's sort of these
Speaker 2: definitions of what it should look like, and there are
Speaker 2: certain motifs. We know, if there's a cowboy film, they're
Speaker 2: gonna be ten gallon hats, they're gonna be guns, there's
Speaker 2: going to be horses. There's certain things that mark that
Speaker 2: something is a Western. So the same way with horror
Speaker 2: and with fantasy and with science fiction, those were always
Speaker 2: sort of pushed to the side, and so they were
Speaker 2: considered a different genre.
Speaker 1: So we've always had these elements that signal to a
Speaker 1: reader or viewer or participant or whatever to kind of
Speaker 1: tell you what genre of art you're consuming.
Speaker 2: We know horror will have elements such as a ghost
Speaker 2: will have.
Speaker 1: A haunted house.
Speaker 2: Fantasy becomes a little bit more difficult to find because
Speaker 2: it's about these these worlds that are built often based
Speaker 2: on other worlds, and magic can happen in there. Science fiction,
Speaker 2: there's hard science fiction, there's soft science fiction, but they're
Speaker 2: based on technologies, they're based on hardcore science facts.
Speaker 1: So with afrofuturism. We commonly see it clustered with sci
Speaker 1: fi and horror. It's kind of really hard to pin down,
Speaker 1: but there is a difference. So we ask doctor Brooks,
Speaker 1: what about afrofuturism, what is it really?
Speaker 2: I usually speak about afrofuturism as a theory of time,
Speaker 2: and it's where the past, the present, and the future
Speaker 2: are not linear.
Speaker 1: They're all conflated.
Speaker 2: A part of the present is looking at the past
Speaker 2: and recovering what was lost and what we're going to
Speaker 2: take with us into that future that so many of
Speaker 2: us imagine. So I'm a part of the recovery project.
Speaker 1: Shari are Thim is a scholar who calls afrofuturism speculative
Speaker 1: fiction from the African diaspora. And so sometimes we see
Speaker 1: things that are sci fi and they just added in
Speaker 1: black people, But that's not afrofuturism. It's not just black
Speaker 1: people in space. It also addresses their ancestry, so it
Speaker 1: doesn't just put a black person in a futuristic space.
Speaker 1: It takes into account their history, their lineage, and what
Speaker 1: effects that might have on who they are presently in
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, and I think a key part of
Speaker 1: doctor Brook's work is recovering, interweaving and assessing the remnants
Speaker 1: of the past, and so this could be spiritual traditions
Speaker 1: or philosophies or cosmologies. And she's saying, Okay, how does
Speaker 1: this show up in or how does it affect the
Speaker 1: future in these works? What are the origins of afrofuturism.
Speaker 1: How did it start? Well, there are a couple of points.
Speaker 2: One the idea of the conflation of the past president future.
Speaker 2: It's a very old idea and multiple peoples had this idea,
Speaker 2: So the Acon people of what is now Ghana, Dogon
Speaker 2: people of Mali. And it's not just a West African concept.
Speaker 2: This applies in parts of Eastern Asia. We see this
Speaker 2: in a lot of non Western European traditions. We even
Speaker 2: see it in indigenous European traditions. This is not a
Speaker 2: new idea.
Speaker 1: So the idea of futurism has been around since the
Speaker 1: beginning of time and all over the world. And that
Speaker 1: makes sense because folks were imagining what the lives of
Speaker 1: their descendants would be like. And so when we started
Speaker 1: thinking about afrofuturism, we really can layer it on what
Speaker 1: we consider you know classical literature and sci fi and
Speaker 1: see how afrofuturism grew along with it. So you have
Speaker 1: sci fi as this spinoff of classical stories. Is science
Speaker 1: fiction was growing as a field, and it was basically
Speaker 1: taking stories that were already known and injecting technology and
Speaker 1: science into them. So that's science fiction layering on top
Speaker 1: of classic stories. All the while you have out for
Speaker 1: futurism growing alongside science fiction. You have to remember science
Speaker 1: fiction wasn't a respectable genre back then. So you have
Speaker 1: these reputable black writers. So Delaney, Chestnut and Johnson. You
Speaker 1: can see more about their work in our show notes.
Speaker 1: They're telling these stories that explore the changes between society
Speaker 1: and science, but through this historical black lens. So they
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to be affiliated with science fiction anyway,
Speaker 1: because they're really looking at race and society and culture.
Speaker 1: And they're respectable writers, not just like pulp fiction. Right,
Speaker 1: they're taking an academic approach to it and really trying
Speaker 1: to project and extrapolate how the future will look for
Speaker 1: black folks. Yes, and there's so much more to consider there.
Speaker 1: Please check out our show notes. So you mentioned Delaney,
Speaker 1: Chestnut and Johnson, but who are the trailblazers. And when
Speaker 1: did we see black people start telling horror stories?
Speaker 2: My book on Black Women and Horror searching for Ciica
Speaker 2: X is this because folks told me black women don't
Speaker 2: do horror. And the easiest way to piss me off
Speaker 2: is to tell me black women don't do something.
Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, I got you.
Speaker 2: And I say that Zora Neil Hurston, I really look
Speaker 2: at her as the first black woman horror writer. And
Speaker 2: I say this because she has a collection of stories
Speaker 2: and every tongue got to confess, and she's going around
Speaker 2: and basically getting the oral histories and tales from people
Speaker 2: around them.
Speaker 1: And she has a.
Speaker 2: Whole section called hate Tales and devil Tales. And so
Speaker 2: we have this establishment in this tradition. Here we have
Speaker 2: Dubois writing the comment Schari E. Thomas. She has a
Speaker 2: collection of stories called Dark Matter, right, And so this
Speaker 2: tradition is here.
Speaker 1: It's about where to look. That's so wild because I've
Speaker 1: read Zora Neil Hurston and Dubois and I have never
Speaker 1: considered it through this lens right, right, I think this
Speaker 1: is exactly what we needed to kind of shine a light. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes you think about all of the things that
Speaker 1: we read in high school in college and say, hmm,
Speaker 1: maybe this wasn't just like traditional literature, Like maybe this
Speaker 1: is afrofuturism, maybe this is horror, maybe this is sci fi.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, and when we get back,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about where black horror and afrofuturism
Speaker 1: are hiding in plain sight and where these genres are
Speaker 1: going in the future. We're back, and the next question
Speaker 1: that we had for doctor Brooks was where are black
Speaker 1: horror and afrofuturism hiding in plain sight?
Speaker 2: We just have to look at the reality that so
Speaker 2: much of our stuff is oral, so much of our
Speaker 2: stuff passes down individually or in small groups, and just
Speaker 2: because you can't find something within the general public does
Speaker 2: not mean it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: This is such a good point. I feel like we're
Speaker 1: always talking about the printing press and who had access
Speaker 1: to it, but it really shapes what we consider to
Speaker 1: be legit history. Right the printing press has white supremacy
Speaker 1: in every single cog and script. But when you think
Speaker 1: about the stories that are told in your family and
Speaker 1: passed down, it's not hard for me to see it honestly.
Speaker 1: I mean because even present day, we pass down different
Speaker 1: stories from our famili's generation to generation. My family has.
Speaker 2: This duality where they are very very good, upstanding Christians,
Speaker 2: but there were always these whispers about like who can
Speaker 2: talk to the dad who has this relationship with the dead.
Speaker 2: Well and so and so visited me last night and
Speaker 2: she said this, this and this, And I don't think
Speaker 2: that multiplicity is anything for us to be ashamed of.
Speaker 2: I think it's a beautiful thing in our family. But
Speaker 2: I also have to deal with the idea that it
Speaker 2: makes some people in my family uncomfortable. It's just push
Speaker 2: and pull with my mom because I I know she's
Speaker 2: also dealing with her own feelings about what has happened
Speaker 2: and what has been done with her belief system.
Speaker 1: But she also is this wealth.
Speaker 2: Of knowledge and she tells these stories and I learned
Speaker 2: all these things about my family and about everybody in
Speaker 2: Placaman's Parish, and she's like, you should go talk to
Speaker 2: so and so, and you need to be with so
Speaker 2: and so and so. She gets into it in these
Speaker 2: really really interesting ways.
Speaker 1: To all the people I love. I tell you, if
Speaker 1: I die, I will come back and haunt you. And
Speaker 1: if you should perish before me, please come back and
Speaker 1: haunt me too. Yes, this is something that Zakia tells
Speaker 1: all of her friends, and I don't know if I
Speaker 1: can commit to haunting her. I'm just saying, if it's
Speaker 1: an option, be my guest, be my guest, put our
Speaker 1: friendship to the test. You know, you talk to me
Speaker 1: all about it all the time, about how and your
Speaker 1: family that you guys talk about these types of things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. I was saying to my dad, come back
Speaker 1: and haunt me and he said, oh, you mean a
Speaker 1: haint And I was like, no, I mean haunt and
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, like a haint. And I was like,
Speaker 1: we're using these vowels differently. This is a verb. It
Speaker 1: seems like he's talking about it now. And doctor Brooks
Speaker 1: just confirmed that it's called a haint in different storytelling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was with you, Uncle Curtis. So even when we
Speaker 1: don't realize it, there's a little bit of horror and
Speaker 1: af for futurism going on all around us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you guys are speaking about affle futurism as
Speaker 2: genre and including horror under it, because black folks don't
Speaker 2: necessarily pay attention to genre and there's a part of
Speaker 2: my book where I say that black women genre writers
Speaker 2: are writing fluid fiction, and I said, they don't pay
Speaker 2: attention to this is horror, this is science fiction, this
Speaker 2: is fantasy. They write and they blend these things together,
Speaker 2: and that often it can act as a mirror for
Speaker 2: the simultaneous oppressions.
Speaker 1: That black women feel right and experience.
Speaker 2: So it's not just womanhood, it's not just racial, it's
Speaker 2: not just class, it's not just sexuality. It's all those
Speaker 2: things together, and they're always flowing.
Speaker 1: I look at it as a political tool as well.
Speaker 2: Right, if you're constantly in motion, it's hard to pin
Speaker 2: you down in stereotyping. It's hard to stop the development
Speaker 2: of who you are. So black women are always oscillating,
Speaker 2: they're fluid. You cannot pin us down to one of
Speaker 2: our identities and therefore lock us into something, because we
Speaker 2: refuse to be locked in your small boxes.
Speaker 1: And I think we see Misha Green doing this exact
Speaker 1: thing with Lovecraft Country. So on screen, we're just weaving
Speaker 1: in and out of these different elements. Yes, it feels
Speaker 1: like horror sometimes because it can get a little bit
Speaker 1: gory with some of the killing. Yeah, but then you're
Speaker 1: dealing with monsters, so that seems a little bit like
Speaker 1: sci fi ish. Yeah, then you're on a whole Indiana
Speaker 1: Jones type quest for a secret book next year space
Speaker 1: and then next to your time traveling and doing something
Speaker 1: that seems very very futuristic, with like chips in your
Speaker 1: arm and stuff like that. But then I also feel
Speaker 1: like I'm getting a little bit of soul fou vibes,
Speaker 1: Like Hippolyta is our big mama of source. We see
Speaker 1: her bringing the family together. But then you also have
Speaker 1: a love story being told between Letty and Tick, so
Speaker 1: it's giving you all of these like love and basketball
Speaker 1: vibes and stuff like that. Lovecraft is a ten in one.
Speaker 1: It's one of those ten and one pins. You remember those.
Speaker 1: You click it down, you're right with one color. Click again,
Speaker 1: you're right with another color. Yes, she's doing that with
Speaker 1: genres technic color screenwriting. You gotta keep your eyeballs peeled.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much. It's family dynamics, everything, and
Speaker 1: I really think because it's not easily boxed into one genre.
Speaker 1: When you're watching, you have to engage on this deeper
Speaker 1: level and ask what's happening? What am I thinking about this.
Speaker 2: And that's why Lovecraft country is so hard to define, right,
Speaker 2: it's fluid genre fiction. I can't look at straight dramas.
Speaker 2: I can't look at at twelve years of slave. I
Speaker 2: can't handle something like that. I need something where somebody's
Speaker 2: ancestor gonna come in and set everybody on fire and
Speaker 2: take you to the ancestral space and teach you how
Speaker 2: to do the spells and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: I need that sort of agency within it. And I
Speaker 2: also need that sort of sense of magic, because we've
Speaker 2: always had these ontologies or ways of being where we
Speaker 2: have this magical aspect, not about us, but that the
Speaker 2: magic is possible.
Speaker 1: Ah magic or that's another element. I guess that's what
Speaker 1: we really want to know. What are the specific themes
Speaker 1: in afrofuturism and are there any tropes that you should
Speaker 1: really avoid.
Speaker 2: I think it still has to be done well. You
Speaker 2: got to do your homework, you gotta read, you got
Speaker 2: to watch. Some of the best stuff is not visual
Speaker 2: because for so long black folks been excluded from creating
Speaker 2: films and television shows. You got to go to the comics,
Speaker 2: you got to go to the literature. You know, horror
Speaker 2: is about an excess of emotion, or when black horror
Speaker 2: is done well, you feel all those emotions and so
Speaker 2: it's not just anybody can get in this game. I
Speaker 2: talk about that scene in which Manahatti her skin is
Speaker 2: melting off of her skeleton that she burns, and I say,
Speaker 2: this is when horror is operating on all cylinders, that
Speaker 2: we can see the awesomeness of this something that should
Speaker 2: be considered grotesque, but we're actually crying with sadness when
Speaker 2: it's happening. We feel the empathy for her.
Speaker 1: I was definitely crying in that scene from Lovecraft Country
Speaker 1: just too Much. Yeah, it was a really emotional scene
Speaker 1: because you know the power in it. She has to
Speaker 1: die in this way in order for things to happen
Speaker 1: the way they're supposed to happen, and it's just heart
Speaker 1: wrenching but then also powerful and pretty grotesque honestly because
Speaker 1: we are watching her burn alive. I think there are
Speaker 1: scenes in Black Panther that are like that for me,
Speaker 1: do you remember and get out? When oh boy takes
Speaker 1: that picture and that flash goes off right and that
Speaker 1: guy's like get out, like even though I've never had
Speaker 1: that exact feeling. It almost feels like when you get
Speaker 1: to a place. Have you ever experienced going somewhere you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: finally somebody else that looks like me, let me go
Speaker 1: talk to them, and they're like this, ain't it right.
Speaker 1: It's like those mirages in the desert. You think you
Speaker 1: found an oasis, right, and it's like, Nope, that's just
Speaker 1: more saying right, and your stomach drops that feeling.
Speaker 2: Hm.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. And then even at the end of Get Out,
Speaker 1: when we think the main character might be about to
Speaker 1: die and then his friend comes out and kills a
Speaker 1: lady and it's like, yes, like you you're so excited,
Speaker 1: but somebody something really like awful just happened. But you
Speaker 1: feel liberated, you know, like freedom because we know it
Speaker 1: had a possibility of going a whole different way exactly
Speaker 1: depending on who is in that car exactly who gets
Speaker 1: seen automatically as the threat because it was a cop
Speaker 1: car and we were like, oh, this is not gonna
Speaker 1: end well oh yep, but then it turns out to
Speaker 1: be his friend and you just feel like this overwhelming
Speaker 1: sense of joy And I think this is part of
Speaker 1: the appeal, right watching something so layered and imaginative as
Speaker 1: Lovecraft makes me think I want more of this exactly.
Speaker 1: I think that this is set in the tone for
Speaker 1: everything to come. So we ask Doctor Books about the
Speaker 1: future of afrofuturism and horror. Where is it going right now?
Speaker 2: There's this huge renaissance of why a literature of black
Speaker 2: girls and fantasy, Black boys and fantasy. I'm now reading
Speaker 2: a song of Raith and Ruin. We have Tommy Alda
Speaker 2: Yemi's work. We have L. Penelope's work. We have The
Speaker 2: Rage of Dragons. Ooh, we have LLL McKinney. She's done
Speaker 2: this Like Black Girl. We take on Alice in Wonderland.
Speaker 2: There's so much good stuff out there. I'm overwhelmed with it,
Speaker 2: but in such a good way because out of hungered
Speaker 2: for this.
Speaker 1: As a little girl, I love where it's going. I
Speaker 1: think there's just so much out there, and I'm learning more.
Speaker 1: Our producer just told me about a documentary of black
Speaker 1: horror on the Shutter Channel. It's called Horror Noir. Doctor
Speaker 1: Brooks has a book called Searching for Sicker Acts, and
Speaker 1: you should definitely check that out. And it also can
Speaker 1: open the door into all types of horror. I found
Speaker 1: my entry into horror, starting out with Goosebumps. Y'all remember
Speaker 1: Goosebumps and R. L. Stein. I jumped very shortly after that,
Speaker 1: my mom bought me Octavia Butler and Tonan a redo.
Speaker 1: Now that is a jump that will have you scared
Speaker 1: in the night. I think my entry was Goosebumps, like
Speaker 1: you said. But then also on Nickelodeon, they had a
Speaker 1: show called Are You Afraid of the Dark? Yes. I
Speaker 1: love that they did these shorts where it was like
Speaker 1: a scary story, but it was like kind of kid friendly.
Speaker 1: There was nothing that was like super super gory, but
Speaker 1: it was scary. And I think that's when I realized
Speaker 1: I actually like being scared, because I would have watched
Speaker 1: those episodes and just be like, oh my gosh. I
Speaker 1: thought it was phenomenal. Yes, and I think some people
Speaker 1: just like to be scared, you know, And there's you know,
Speaker 1: there's something about activating that fight or flight response that
Speaker 1: will do it for me every time, every time. But
Speaker 1: I don't want to be in danger. I want to
Speaker 1: be scared, but I don't want to really be in danger.
Speaker 1: But I think there's something about showing all of these
Speaker 1: elements of what gets considered scary, and you can teach fear, right,
Speaker 1: so we're not all scared of the same things. There
Speaker 1: are some things that get taught that you can be
Speaker 1: afraid of. These scientists did this experiment, which is totally unethical,
Speaker 1: but we already talked about the unethical origins of science
Speaker 1: in Lab twenty five, but they implanted fear in this
Speaker 1: child and he was like irrationally afraid of white bunnies. Right,
Speaker 1: because they were able to show that you can train
Speaker 1: fear if you really think about it, depending on who
Speaker 1: controls the narratives around scary stories, you can train fear.
Speaker 1: We've seen some people have been trained to be afraid
Speaker 1: of whole groups of people and their cultures. Truth. Doctor
Speaker 1: Brooks really hit the nail on the head, kind of
Speaker 1: exposing who decides what should be scary.
Speaker 2: I always talk to my students, you know, I say
Speaker 2: things are about power dynamics, and I said, who does
Speaker 2: it empower for you to be afraid of your spiritual traditions?
Speaker 1: I always show them.
Speaker 2: I show them like Thor, I show them Loki, I
Speaker 2: show them Odin, and I'm like, you paying money to
Speaker 2: see these non Abrahamic traditions. You take statues of Buddha
Speaker 2: and bring them into your house. You celebrate thor god
Speaker 2: of Thunder, but when we bring in Shangou you scared.
Speaker 2: Do you realize that you are only afraid because these
Speaker 2: were traditions that gave enslaved folks power, that gave enslave
Speaker 2: folks identities. So while you paying money to see one
Speaker 2: and then you won't step out the room and leave.
Speaker 2: When I mentioned the other power dynamics, who is empowered
Speaker 2: by these things existing as they are?
Speaker 1: It ain't you. It ain't your grandmama. This is so true.
Speaker 1: And when she's talking about Shango, that is an orisha
Speaker 1: that is of the Yuruba faith, so Nigerian faith. The
Speaker 1: traditions of the enslaved people and the things that they
Speaker 1: did to survive, so like the medicine that they created
Speaker 1: for themselves, we've automatically said, oh, that's like devil's work.
Speaker 1: But then we have people who do acupuncture, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: why have you decided that acupuncture is okay? But then
Speaker 1: things that are from a different culture is unacceptable. We've
Speaker 1: been trained to have these biases even for things that
Speaker 1: are of the people that we are from. This takes
Speaker 1: us right to blood magic. We saw in Lovecraft Country
Speaker 1: the protection over that house, and then people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's dark, that's evil. I can't believe they're showing this,
Speaker 1: or that's primitive to believe these things. But if you
Speaker 1: believe that, you consume the body and blood of Christ
Speaker 1: every first Sunday of the month. If that's not blood magic,
Speaker 1: I don't know what is. Did you see da Vinci
Speaker 1: code they trace the bloodline through centuries. If this is
Speaker 1: not some vampire type stuff. Follow the sign of the
Speaker 1: Rose and it's about the womb. But I'm like, what
Speaker 1: is going on here? The chalice is the womb, this
Speaker 1: is too much. The uterus is a cup. We can
Speaker 1: make any religious tradition look pretty grotesque and scary, but
Speaker 1: if we see the beauty in everyone's culture and traditions,
Speaker 1: then none of it is scary. And it's just what
Speaker 1: your family, your ancestors did to survive. And you won't
Speaker 1: just do what's cool at the time. Like I see
Speaker 1: all y'all buying Crystal's burness age and all these things
Speaker 1: like that, and I'm just like, Okay, well where did
Speaker 1: you get that from? And how come when other folks
Speaker 1: are doing communion that is also okay, But then when
Speaker 1: you have folks that believe that certain spirits or gods
Speaker 1: are guiding their lives, you're like, that's crazy. Why it's
Speaker 1: all in the framing of rituals, And I think we
Speaker 1: have to break those barriers of who's credible and who's
Speaker 1: approved and okay and civilized and who's not. All these
Speaker 1: are fake markings, right. I'm of the school of if
Speaker 1: you like it, I love it. Whatever you do, whatever
Speaker 1: traditions that your family or that you're starting in your family,
Speaker 1: because I realize some people might not necessarily know the
Speaker 1: traditions of their people because of slavery and the loss
Speaker 1: of those traditions and cultures, and so you're redefining or
Speaker 1: finding those traditions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that,
Speaker 1: and I think it's actually a really beautiful thing. So
Speaker 1: that just leads us to the point that representation in
Speaker 1: media is so crucial, and it's not just oh, you
Speaker 1: have this one black person in this horror film or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's about also bringing in their ancestry and culture and
Speaker 1: telling their story. Just having a person of color on screen,
Speaker 1: it means nothing if they don't have a fully developed
Speaker 1: character that you can truly see yourself. We're not showing
Speaker 1: up in dying first, we're over that. Some of the
Speaker 1: characters that I think of when I think of black
Speaker 1: folks and representation in like science fiction and horror and
Speaker 1: things like that, I go all the way back to
Speaker 1: Star Trek. My dad is a huge Star Trek fan,
Speaker 1: and so I've watched a lot of Star Trek. I
Speaker 1: would not have guessed that about mister Sho Dia, right,
Speaker 1: but he is, like, he's a big fan. He loves
Speaker 1: Star Trek and Star Wars and all everything that science fiction.
Speaker 1: And so one of the first black folks I know,
Speaker 1: he wasn't Thief first, because there was Uhura in the
Speaker 1: original Star Trek series. It was Michelle Nichols and people
Speaker 1: loved her. I mean it was she was perfect in
Speaker 1: that role. But I also remember, and the character that
Speaker 1: has the strongest tie in my mind was Jordie LaForge
Speaker 1: from Star Trek the Next Generation, and that was played
Speaker 1: by LeVar Burton. A lot of you guys know him
Speaker 1: as the Reading Rainbow guy or depending on your generation,
Speaker 1: a Kuntakine from Roots right, and he was so so
Speaker 1: critical to my love for Star Trek because he was
Speaker 1: like one of the only black characters I've ever seen,
Speaker 1: and so I really loved him being a part of
Speaker 1: the story and them telling his story and his perspective
Speaker 1: and all the things that he brought to the table.
Speaker 1: Because representation is so important, Well, hold on to your
Speaker 1: sock s teat, because we got a little surprise for.
Speaker 3: You, hey ttn. Zakia LeVar Burton here dropping into this
Speaker 3: week's edition of Dope Labs to talk about representation in
Speaker 3: the genre. You know, I have believed for a long
Speaker 3: time that there is a sort of a cellular line,
Speaker 3: not sellular, but sollular line that begins for me with
Speaker 3: Kuntakine at one end, and at the other end is
Speaker 3: Jeordie LaForge. And in the middle of that soul line,
Speaker 3: if you will, is LeVar and the reading Rainbow guy.
Speaker 3: And I say that to say that my journey in
Speaker 3: media has been one that I never could have predicted.
Speaker 3: And in these three roles it becomes really clear to
Speaker 3: me that my destiny path has been about representation in
Speaker 3: modern media, in modern storytelling, making sure that we were
Speaker 3: there right. Being a black man on PBS and representing
Speaker 3: for literacy and the written word meant an enormous lot
Speaker 3: to me the son of an English teacher. So yes,
Speaker 3: I believe that representation more than matters, it is essential
Speaker 3: for culture to realize its full potential for the people.
Speaker 1: This made me very emotional listening to that, because I
Speaker 1: feel like he has. LaVar Burton has been such a
Speaker 1: huge part of my life, Like I feel like at
Speaker 1: every stage he has been a part of it, And
Speaker 1: him being on screen has been so important to my
Speaker 1: love of science, science fiction, anything futuristic, and I feel
Speaker 1: like he has had influence on such a huge influence
Speaker 1: on that space. So hearing from him and hearing him
Speaker 1: talking straight to us is well, I don't even know
Speaker 1: what to do. Doctor Brooks and LeVar Burton gave us
Speaker 1: their thoughts on the future of storytelling.
Speaker 2: I'm interested in what the art is going to look
Speaker 2: like fifteen twenty years from now because it's influenced a
Speaker 2: new generation.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be so good.
Speaker 3: One of the things for me about this modern age
Speaker 3: of digital storytelling is that no one can prevent you
Speaker 3: from telling your story. If you have a desire, you
Speaker 3: have the tools at your disposal to not only make
Speaker 3: your story, but to also get your story seen, to
Speaker 3: distribute your story through social media, and you know, and
Speaker 3: by any other means necessary. So I think we are
Speaker 3: in an age of the democratization of content creation, both
Speaker 3: in print and in video visual storytelling, and yet we
Speaker 3: still have so much further that we can go. Obviously,
Speaker 3: it's a long way before we get to equity in
Speaker 3: the diversity of the stories that we tell.
Speaker 1: That's it for Lab thirty four, but we have so
Speaker 1: much more for you to dig into. On our website
Speaker 1: Dope Labs podcast dot com, click on cheat sheets and
Speaker 1: go write to Lab thirty four. We want to hear
Speaker 1: from you. Leave a comment. On our website, you can
Speaker 1: find a cheat sheet for today's lab, along with a
Speaker 1: ton of other links and resources in the show notes.
Speaker 1: And if you want to stay in the know with
Speaker 1: Dope Labs, don't forget to sign up for our newsletter
Speaker 1: on our site too special thanks to our guest expert,
Speaker 1: doctor kinnietcher Brooks. Follow her on Twitter at k eight
Speaker 1: dee one six and for even more links to our work,
Speaker 1: check out our show notes. Also, we'd love hearing from you.
Speaker 1: What did you think about today's lab? Do you have
Speaker 1: ideas for future labs? Call us at two zero two
Speaker 1: five six seven seven zero two eight and let us know.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs.
Speaker 1: Podcast tt is on Twitter at d R Underscore t
Speaker 1: s h O, and you can find Zakiya at z Said.
Speaker 1: So follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen
Speaker 1: to podcasts. Dope Labs is produced by Jenny rattlet Mast
Speaker 1: and Lydia Smith of waver Runner Studios. Mixing and sound
Speaker 1: design are by Hannes Brown. Our theme music is by
Speaker 1: Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura, with additional music by Elijah
Speaker 1: Lex Harvey. Dope Labs is a production of Spotify and
Speaker 1: Mega Ohn Media Group, and it's executive produced by us
Speaker 1: T T Show, Dia and Zakiah Wattley.