WEBVTT - #593 Jason Flom with Jeffrey Deskovic 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:04.319 I first covered Jeffrey Deskovic's story back in 2017, which 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.200 was the first year of this podcast. Jeff's story is 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:10.540 one that I've come back to over and over again 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.160 over the years, not only because of the 16 years 0:00:13.220 --> 0:00:15.340 he spent in prison for a murder he had nothing 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.680 to do with, I mean nothing at all, but also 0:00:17.750 --> 0:00:20.690 because of what he's chosen to do with his life 0:00:21.010 --> 0:00:25.930 after his exoneration. It's a hero's journey. And Jeff's story has... 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.420 A powerful connection to the two cases that we recently 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.080 revisited on this show. I'm talking about Andrew Krivak and 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:36.950 Anthony DiPippo. Because the same freaking polygraph operator who helped 0:00:37.490 --> 0:00:40.489 extract the false confession from Jeff when he was just 0:00:40.490 --> 0:00:43.970 16 years old was later involved in the interrogation that 0:00:44.010 --> 0:00:48.270 produced Andy Krivak's false confession. Yeah, these things, they happen 0:00:48.310 --> 0:00:51.460 again and again. The same people are usually behind them. Anyway, 0:00:51.540 --> 0:00:55.100 years later, Jeff and the Deskovic Foundation not only helped 0:00:55.140 --> 0:00:58.780 to free Andy, But Jeff even put up his own 0:00:58.940 --> 0:01:02.800 house as collateral for Andy's bail. Yeah, you heard that correctly. 0:01:02.860 --> 0:01:05.130 That's the type of guy he is. So recently I 0:01:05.170 --> 0:01:08.530 joined Jeffrey and filmmaker Gia Rizvi at the Sag Harbor 0:01:08.550 --> 0:01:13.290 Cinema for a special presentation followed by a talkback that 0:01:13.310 --> 0:01:15.870 we did together of 16 years. The 16 years is 0:01:15.890 --> 0:01:22.060 Gia's amazing documentary about Jeff's wrongful conviction, his exoneration, and 0:01:23.140 --> 0:01:27.840 all the work he's done since. I spoke there about 0:01:27.900 --> 0:01:33.610 Jeff's incredible journey from being a young teenage kid railroaded 0:01:33.950 --> 0:01:37.789 by the system to an attorney and advocate who fights 0:01:37.870 --> 0:01:39.950 for others day in and day out to make sure 0:01:39.970 --> 0:01:42.170 it doesn't happen to them. If you've been listening to 0:01:42.230 --> 0:01:44.500 Bone Valley, The Devil's Quarry, which I hope you have, 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:46.259 and if you haven't, today's a good day to start. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.840 Jeff's story provides important context for the cases of Anthony 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.020 DePippo and Andy Krivak. And moreover, for how these wrongful 0:01:56.040 --> 0:02:00.280 convictions happen in the first place. So now, check it out. 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:06.970 Here's Jeffrey's story. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. 0:02:07.010 --> 0:02:09.989 Today's guest is someone fans of the show will recognize, 0:02:10.330 --> 0:02:11.170 Jeff Deskovic. 0:02:11.630 --> 0:02:14.730 Jeffrey Deskovic spent more than a decade in prison for 0:02:14.750 --> 0:02:17.280 the rape and murder of a classmate. It was a 0:02:17.340 --> 0:02:18.680 crime he did not commit. 0:02:19.380 --> 0:02:21.910 A 16-year-old is arrested for rape and murder. He's grilled 0:02:21.930 --> 0:02:24.650 by police and given a lie detector test, and eventually 0:02:24.690 --> 0:02:27.450 the police talk him into a false confession, even though 0:02:27.510 --> 0:02:29.930 DNA did not link him to the crime. He served 0:02:29.930 --> 0:02:32.950 16 years in prison before new testing shows another man 0:02:33.030 --> 0:02:34.000 committed that crime. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.619 In January 2006, the Innocence Project convinced prosecutors to take 0:02:38.700 --> 0:02:43.239 another look at DNA evidence. New testing technology cleared Deskovic 0:02:43.260 --> 0:02:47.530 of the 1989 crime, identifying the real killer and releasing 0:02:47.570 --> 0:02:51.540 Deskovic into a world he no longer knew. Today, Deskovic 0:02:51.580 --> 0:02:52.360 is a free man. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.060 Jeff, welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.280 Thanks for having me, Jason. It's always a pleasure. 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.880 And Jeff was here before with Amanda Knox and Jared 0:03:02.060 --> 0:03:05.440 Adams when we did a very special Wrongful Christmas, where 0:03:05.580 --> 0:03:08.540 he spoke so eloquently about what it was like being 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.380 locked up in a maximum security prison on the holidays 0:03:11.490 --> 0:03:14.700 when Everyone else is out celebrating and the world's going 0:03:14.780 --> 0:03:18.410 on without you. But this time, I'm really glad to 0:03:18.450 --> 0:03:21.750 have you here, Jeff, because your story is so important. 0:03:22.510 --> 0:03:25.150 And so I want to get right back into that. 0:03:25.370 --> 0:03:26.650 You grew up in White Plains? 0:03:27.290 --> 0:03:30.149 No, I grew up in Peekskill in Westchester County. My 0:03:30.190 --> 0:03:32.780 case happened in White Plains. That's the county court. 0:03:33.740 --> 0:03:35.460 People are going to scratch their heads or shake their 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.310 heads when I say this, right? In your case... DNA 0:03:39.410 --> 0:03:44.540 evidence was presented at the trial that proved scientifically, with 0:03:44.780 --> 0:03:48.160 no doubt, that you could not have been the perpetrator 0:03:48.300 --> 0:03:51.710 of the beating, rape, and murder of the 15-year-old victim, 0:03:51.870 --> 0:03:56.810 Angela Correa. There is no way on God's green earth 0:03:57.110 --> 0:03:59.110 that you could have been the perpetrator, and yet you 0:03:59.130 --> 0:04:03.270 were convicted anyway. And that's what makes, it's just, I'm 0:04:03.310 --> 0:04:05.160 going to shake up the whole justice system and go, wait, 0:04:05.190 --> 0:04:09.040 that's not possible. It can't happen. And you were basically 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:10.140 a child when this happened. 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.080 I was. I was 16 years old when I was arrested. 0:04:13.140 --> 0:04:15.040 And by the time the trial happened and I was 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.409 wrongfully convicted, I was 17. So, yes, I was a child. 0:04:18.510 --> 0:04:22.890 And I had very small awareness of what was going on, 0:04:23.050 --> 0:04:26.610 totally dependent on the lawyer who was inept in a 0:04:26.650 --> 0:04:28.610 lot of ways. It's fair to say that I was 0:04:28.650 --> 0:04:29.710 particularly vulnerable. 0:04:30.430 --> 0:04:33.080 It's such a tragic thing that happened to start with. 0:04:33.620 --> 0:04:35.520 And this was a young girl who was in your school. 0:04:35.540 --> 0:04:36.719 Were you in 10th grade at the time? 0:04:36.980 --> 0:04:37.240 I was. 0:04:37.930 --> 0:04:40.330 So you were in 10th grade. She was in 10th grade. Yeah. 0:04:40.810 --> 0:04:42.650 She was in two of my classes as a freshman 0:04:43.250 --> 0:04:47.050 and one as a sophomore. She was an immigrant from Colombia. 0:04:47.150 --> 0:04:49.960 She'd been in the country for about a year and 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.500 a half. She lived a very, very sheltered life, as 0:04:52.580 --> 0:04:55.740 I understand it, in which she never went outside unless 0:04:55.779 --> 0:04:58.300 she was with her older sister or with her parents. 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.620 And this one particular day, she received a assignment in 0:05:03.690 --> 0:05:07.169 her photography class to take some pictures of some foliage. 0:05:07.750 --> 0:05:11.500 The teacher assigned male students with the female students, like 0:05:11.540 --> 0:05:16.140 a buddy system for safety. And this male student who 0:05:16.180 --> 0:05:19.820 was assigned to her played hooky on the assignment. And 0:05:19.940 --> 0:05:22.839 so when Angela went to her house with her sister, 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.330 her sister went to the restroom. And when she came 0:05:26.370 --> 0:05:30.050 back out, Angela decided to venture out on her own 0:05:30.310 --> 0:05:34.470 that one day to take the pictures. And unfortunately, that 0:05:34.529 --> 0:05:36.890 proved to be her last day. 0:05:37.380 --> 0:05:40.220 It's unbelievable. I mean, it's really an incredible story. The 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.850 one day this poor little girl decides to, you know, 0:05:43.210 --> 0:05:44.310 be brave, right? 0:05:44.410 --> 0:05:44.610 Right. 0:05:45.330 --> 0:05:51.130 So she ends up brutally beaten, raped, and strangled, right? 0:05:51.490 --> 0:05:51.710 Yes. 0:05:52.450 --> 0:05:56.150 And this must have caused pandemonium in the community. 0:05:56.710 --> 0:05:59.780 It absolutely did. There hadn't been a murder in Peekskill 0:05:59.820 --> 0:06:00.920 for about 20 years. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:01.339 Wow. 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.870 And the whole city virtually shut down. I mean, Parents 0:06:06.910 --> 0:06:10.089 were coming right to the high school, dropping their kids 0:06:10.310 --> 0:06:13.890 off and picking them up. There was repeated town hall meetings. 0:06:14.370 --> 0:06:18.270 The mayor and police were attending and giving safety tips, 0:06:18.330 --> 0:06:20.980 and people were vocalizing concerns. 0:06:21.250 --> 0:06:23.060 Well, yeah, there was a monster on the loose. 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:24.039 Exactly right. 0:06:24.180 --> 0:06:24.860 A real monster. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:25.500 There was. 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.419 And so, yeah, as a parent, I would certainly be 0:06:28.460 --> 0:06:30.280 doing the same thing. I wouldn't let my kid out 0:06:30.300 --> 0:06:32.540 of my sight until this thing was resolved. So this creates, 0:06:33.020 --> 0:06:36.630 as we know, a lot of pressure. right? On law enforcement. 0:06:36.670 --> 0:06:39.230 They got to get this thing off their desks. Who 0:06:39.270 --> 0:06:42.000 knows what could happen, right? There's going to be articles written. 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:43.760 There's going to be TV. There's going to be all 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.260 that stuff, right? When you have a high profile case, 0:06:46.300 --> 0:06:48.900 especially involving a child in a community where murder hasn't 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:53.060 happened in 20 years, it's a pressure cooker. So how 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.240 the hell did they end up picking on you? I 0:06:56.260 --> 0:06:58.740 didn't know you when you were 16, but I can 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:04.010 imagine that you would be an extremely unlikely candidate for 0:07:04.210 --> 0:07:06.210 a brutal crime like this one. 0:07:06.930 --> 0:07:09.920 Yeah, I would agree with that. So, well, when I 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.340 was 16, I kind of lived a double life in 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.140 a sense, in the sense that in school, I was quiet. 0:07:16.180 --> 0:07:18.380 I was to myself. I was a little bit withdrawn 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.480 because I wasn't really familiar with those kids, and I 0:07:22.500 --> 0:07:26.120 didn't quite fit in with them. But after school, in 0:07:26.170 --> 0:07:29.430 the apartment building where I lived at, which coincidentally was 0:07:29.510 --> 0:07:32.090 right across the street from the high school, I was 0:07:32.150 --> 0:07:34.630 kind of like the life of the party. So myself 0:07:34.690 --> 0:07:37.050 and one other boy that lived there. I mean, there 0:07:37.090 --> 0:07:39.290 was a big group of kids that lived in the 0:07:39.330 --> 0:07:42.790 complex and in the areas around it. And pretty much 0:07:42.830 --> 0:07:45.690 whatever I would suggest would mostly be what we would do. 0:07:45.770 --> 0:07:49.170 I mean, we would swim, we would play basketball, ride bikes, 0:07:49.230 --> 0:07:53.090 play Monopoly, video games, movies. We made up some games. 0:07:53.130 --> 0:07:56.510 We made up a game that was like baseball, except 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.220 it was played with a tennis racket and a tennis 0:07:59.260 --> 0:08:01.580 ball and the ball had to be thrown a certain way. 0:08:01.660 --> 0:08:06.360 And I was a different person there. So the police 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:11.740 story is that in the course of interviewing students from 0:08:11.780 --> 0:08:14.540 the high school, some of them told the police, hey, 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.340 you might want to talk to Jeff because he's quiet 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.330 and to himself. So originally, the police looked at the 0:08:21.390 --> 0:08:26.030 victim's stepdad, who was married to the victim's mother. But 0:08:26.570 --> 0:08:29.270 at some point, he realized that he was a suspect 0:08:29.330 --> 0:08:33.130 and he hired a retired New York City detective to 0:08:33.290 --> 0:08:36.670 investigate the crime. And so that persuaded them to move 0:08:36.770 --> 0:08:40.069 off of him. Then they looked at another youth in 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.640 the high school and they started using interrogative tactics, which 0:08:44.660 --> 0:08:48.140 they would use on me later on. But the difference 0:08:48.220 --> 0:08:50.840 is that he had a stepfather in the home. And 0:08:50.900 --> 0:08:54.490 so the stepfather went down to the police station and 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.130 broke up the interrogation. And they initially wouldn't let him 0:08:57.190 --> 0:08:59.850 in the room, but He broke up the interrogation and 0:08:59.910 --> 0:09:02.860 he got his stepson an attorney. And so that was 0:09:02.900 --> 0:09:05.179 the end of that. I, on the other hand, didn't 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.900 have a stepfather in the home. So there wasn't anybody 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:10.640 to intervene for me. 0:09:10.700 --> 0:09:12.160 It was just you and your mother at the time? 0:09:12.500 --> 0:09:15.690 Myself, my mother, and I lived with my grandmother. And 0:09:15.730 --> 0:09:19.350 then I had a younger brother. So the police story 0:09:19.610 --> 0:09:21.770 is that some of the kids in the school told 0:09:21.809 --> 0:09:23.330 them that they might want to talk to me. And 0:09:23.370 --> 0:09:26.050 their other theory as to why they focused in on me, 0:09:26.090 --> 0:09:31.000 they said that my emotional reaction to the victim having 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:35.560 been murdered was disproportionate to what my actual relationship with 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:37.780 her was, which was to say there was no relationship. 0:09:37.860 --> 0:09:40.620 I mean, I knew her name, she knew mine. We 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.700 weren't even on a high buy basis. So her being murdered, 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.160 it kind of struck me because that was really my 0:09:47.220 --> 0:09:49.420 first encounter with death. I thought that was something that 0:09:49.490 --> 0:09:52.270 happens to people at the end of life. I had 0:09:52.309 --> 0:09:55.170 a chance to briefly get to know the family. I 0:09:55.190 --> 0:09:57.920 went to the WIC and People were invited back to 0:09:57.980 --> 0:10:01.650 their house, to the Correa house. to have coffee and 0:10:01.700 --> 0:10:03.740 talk to the family. And there was cookies and stuff. 0:10:03.780 --> 0:10:05.800 And so I guess you could say, you might say 0:10:05.820 --> 0:10:09.300 I was kind of a sensitive, sentimental type of person. 0:10:09.340 --> 0:10:11.080 And so it kind of touched me. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:12.120 A little bit. By the way, you might say you 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.439 were a normal type of person, right? And it always 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:20.240 boggles my mind how these authority figures suddenly become expert 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.980 psychiatrists or psychologists. And we see it over and over again. 0:10:23.380 --> 0:10:26.820 He acted too sad. He didn't act sad enough. He 0:10:26.860 --> 0:10:29.460 was too upset and not upset enough. He ran into 0:10:29.500 --> 0:10:32.839 the fire. There's all these cases where that becomes a 0:10:32.900 --> 0:10:37.040 factor when it's ridiculous. Nobody knows how anyone is going 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.140 to react in times of trauma. And I would say, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.300 like I said, that your reaction sounds to me like 0:10:42.460 --> 0:10:47.140 a sensitive person who is just experiencing something in their 0:10:47.179 --> 0:10:50.939 own community with somebody that's an innocent young girl, of 0:10:50.980 --> 0:10:51.520 course you're upset. 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.309 Yeah, I agree with you completely. And I want to 0:10:54.490 --> 0:10:57.610 add that this really shook up the whole city to 0:10:57.650 --> 0:11:01.130 the point that free mental health counseling was offered to 0:11:01.309 --> 0:11:05.070 anybody in the city who wanted it. So this affected 0:11:05.410 --> 0:11:06.970 many people emotionally. 0:11:07.250 --> 0:11:08.500 Had you ever been in trouble before? 0:11:08.820 --> 0:11:08.980 No. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.420 Never been in trouble. So the cops, at some point, 0:11:12.460 --> 0:11:16.020 they come and pick you up. But your interrogation is 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.160 really at the root of the entire problem. And it 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:26.030 is a perfect example of everything that's wrong with interrogation 0:11:26.290 --> 0:11:29.970 techniques in this country, even today. It is. 0:11:30.550 --> 0:11:33.750 There was a six-week run-up to that day. So I 0:11:33.790 --> 0:11:36.270 had interaction with the police from the time they initially 0:11:37.070 --> 0:11:39.300 intercepted me on my way to the high school. Up 0:11:39.370 --> 0:11:41.510 until the day of the course, false confession, in which 0:11:41.929 --> 0:11:44.930 half the time they would talk to me as if 0:11:45.030 --> 0:11:47.750 I was a suspect. And then half the time they 0:11:47.770 --> 0:11:50.449 would talk to me pretending like they needed my help 0:11:50.490 --> 0:11:53.929 to solve the crime. They would say things like, the 0:11:53.950 --> 0:11:57.370 kids won't talk freely around us, but they will around you. 0:11:57.890 --> 0:12:00.250 Let us know if you hear any rumors. They made 0:12:00.270 --> 0:12:04.050 me the center of attention. They would ask me opinion questions. 0:12:04.130 --> 0:12:05.949 It's exciting, right? 0:12:05.970 --> 0:12:06.309 Yeah, it was. 0:12:06.370 --> 0:12:10.570 Congratulate me, my opinions being correct. My fantasy childhood career 0:12:10.610 --> 0:12:13.460 was actually to be a cop. So this unexpected early 0:12:13.540 --> 0:12:17.140 opportunity to do this quasi-police work was part of how 0:12:17.179 --> 0:12:19.990 they pulled the wool over my eyes, along with my age. 0:12:20.179 --> 0:12:24.569 I was 16 then. They used to buy pizza. And listen, 0:12:24.610 --> 0:12:27.410 I grew up in a single parent household, as we mentioned, 0:12:27.510 --> 0:12:31.990 and that directly intersected with the good cop, bad cop routine. 0:12:32.010 --> 0:12:34.589 And then I started looking up to the cop who 0:12:34.670 --> 0:12:36.710 was pretending to be my friend. 0:12:37.410 --> 0:12:38.469 But as a father figure. 0:12:38.550 --> 0:12:40.469 As a father figure. Yeah, exactly. 0:12:40.770 --> 0:12:43.290 I mean, again, you were 16. So, OK, so there's 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.270 sort of. Sort of spinning this web and seducing you 0:12:46.330 --> 0:12:48.350 and trying to get you to say something that would 0:12:48.370 --> 0:12:51.390 be incriminating. Now we know that's what they were doing, right? Yeah, exactly. 0:12:51.530 --> 0:12:53.650 And so finally at the end, they told me that 0:12:54.130 --> 0:12:57.050 they received some new tip that was in the police 0:12:57.130 --> 0:12:59.050 file and they wanted to share that with me. But 0:12:59.290 --> 0:13:02.130 to do that, I would first have to take and 0:13:02.230 --> 0:13:05.530 pass a polygraph. So help us to help you to 0:13:05.570 --> 0:13:10.730 help us, typologic was employed. So instead of going to 0:13:11.150 --> 0:13:13.990 the school the next day, I instead went to the 0:13:14.020 --> 0:13:17.010 police station where I thought the polygraph was going to 0:13:17.050 --> 0:13:20.990 happen because through the rumor mill of the city, I 0:13:21.030 --> 0:13:24.430 had heard that other people had been polygraphed at the 0:13:24.450 --> 0:13:30.090 police station. But actually, they drove me from Peekskill, which 0:13:30.130 --> 0:13:33.130 was in Westchester County, they drove me 40 minutes away 0:13:34.190 --> 0:13:36.650 out of county to the town of Brewster, which is 0:13:36.750 --> 0:13:40.130 in Putnam County. So they drove me to Brewster to 0:13:40.170 --> 0:13:45.090 this polygraphist, former Putnam County Sheriff's investigator, Daniel Stevens. And 0:13:45.330 --> 0:13:47.589 he was an officer, but he was dressed as a 0:13:47.650 --> 0:13:51.860 civilian and he never identified himself as a cop. And 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.180 he never read me my Miranda warning. So I thought 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.540 that he was a civilian. So he gave me this 0:13:59.220 --> 0:14:02.100 manual to look at about how the polygraph works. And 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.479 it had a lot of really big words in it 0:14:04.500 --> 0:14:07.709 that were beyond my comprehension, but it I didn't care 0:14:07.809 --> 0:14:10.219 because I was there to help the police. So who 0:14:10.270 --> 0:14:14.960 cares what the thing says? Or so I thought. They 0:14:14.980 --> 0:14:18.700 put me into a small room and the polygraphist, Stevens 0:14:18.740 --> 0:14:21.440 became like a virtual coffee dispenser. I mean, I must 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.660 have drank six or seven cups and no sooner would 0:14:23.700 --> 0:14:26.080 I put the cup down than the cup would be 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.190 halfway filled up. And, you know, he's giving me another one. 0:14:29.630 --> 0:14:31.990 And it seems pretty clear in hindsight that the purpose 0:14:32.030 --> 0:14:32.530 of that. 0:14:32.950 --> 0:14:35.310 Was to make me nervous. 0:14:35.350 --> 0:14:35.630 Right. 0:14:35.950 --> 0:14:39.820 Exactly right. So once he finished the coffee routine, then 0:14:39.860 --> 0:14:43.800 he straps me into the polygraph machine, which was fairly heavy, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.120 so now I'm kind of immobilized. It's a very small room, 0:14:49.170 --> 0:14:52.930 and that's when he launches into his third-degree tactics. So 0:14:52.990 --> 0:14:56.850 he invaded my personal space. He raised his voice at me. 0:14:57.250 --> 0:14:59.810 He kept asking me the same questions over and over again. 0:15:00.690 --> 0:15:04.130 And keep in mind that I'm not used to interacting 0:15:04.170 --> 0:15:07.320 with adult males and the way he's conducting himself. And 0:15:07.340 --> 0:15:10.010 he's kind of a mountain of a man. And I'm 16, 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.360 like maybe 140 pounds soaking wet. You know, so it's 0:15:13.500 --> 0:15:17.109 really frightening. So each hour that goes by, my fear 0:15:17.210 --> 0:15:21.370 is increasing in proportion to the time. So Stevens kept 0:15:21.410 --> 0:15:25.120 that up for about six or seven hours. Towards the 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.500 end of the interrogation, that's when he said to me, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.270 I guess by then he was just frustrated by not 0:15:32.550 --> 0:15:35.410 having been able to get me to confess to that point. 0:15:36.330 --> 0:15:39.200 He said, what do you mean you didn't do it? 0:15:39.530 --> 0:15:42.210 You just told me through the polygraph test results that 0:15:42.250 --> 0:15:46.210 you did. We just want you to verbally confirm it. 0:15:47.250 --> 0:15:49.220 So when he said that to me, that really shot 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.060 my fear through the roof. And at that moment, the 0:15:52.140 --> 0:15:55.460 officer who had been pretending to be my friend, he 0:15:55.500 --> 0:15:57.620 came in the room and told me that the other 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.820 officers were going to harm me, that he was holding 0:15:59.860 --> 0:16:02.890 them off, but he couldn't do so any longer, that 0:16:02.910 --> 0:16:05.550 I had to help myself. And then he added that 0:16:05.610 --> 0:16:09.870 if I did as they wanted, that not only would 0:16:09.890 --> 0:16:12.250 they stop what they were doing, but that I could 0:16:12.270 --> 0:16:15.350 go home afterwards, that I was not going to be arrested, 0:16:16.130 --> 0:16:20.890 being young, naive, frightened, 16 years old, In fear of 0:16:20.930 --> 0:16:23.750 my life, because the fact that I didn't know where 0:16:23.790 --> 0:16:26.600 I was and that I knew that nobody else did either, 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:28.780 that loomed very large in my mind. 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.880 It's incredible. I mean, it's total disorientation, right? 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:32.440 Yes. 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.860 I mean, and it's, you know, it's diabolical. But if 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:37.920 what you want is a false confession, this would be 0:16:38.470 --> 0:16:39.610 the textbook. 0:16:39.670 --> 0:16:41.110 This is the way to do it. Yeah. And then 0:16:41.150 --> 0:16:45.590 I was emotionally overwhelmed also. And then there's the push-pull dynamic. 0:16:45.810 --> 0:16:48.910 You know, there's the... possibility of harm, but then he's 0:16:48.990 --> 0:16:53.150 thrown me this false life preserver and I took the 0:16:53.270 --> 0:16:55.820 out which he offered. I made up a story based 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.660 on information which they had given me that day and 0:16:58.700 --> 0:17:01.380 in the six weeks run up to that day and 0:17:01.540 --> 0:17:04.520 by the time it was all said and done, I 0:17:04.580 --> 0:17:08.220 had collapsed on the floor, curled up into a fetal position, 0:17:08.859 --> 0:17:11.920 crying uncontrollably. Obviously I was arrested. 0:17:12.850 --> 0:17:16.470 Yeah, I mean the whole thing was a lie. It's 0:17:16.490 --> 0:17:20.640 like a fucking charade, right? And it was easy for them. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.320 I mean, the miracle is that you didn't confess sooner, actually. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.080 And you know, it's interesting, Jeff, we know that false 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.990 confessions happen typically much later, like yours. And you were 0:17:29.150 --> 0:17:31.670 among the most vulnerable people that's ever been put into 0:17:31.710 --> 0:17:34.370 this position, being that you were alone, you had no 0:17:34.410 --> 0:17:36.250 way out, you had no way to get home. You 0:17:36.270 --> 0:17:39.090 were in 10th grade. I mean, 10th grade, you don't 0:17:39.130 --> 0:17:41.530 know what the fuck you're doing when you're in 10th grade. 0:17:41.550 --> 0:17:47.980 You're You had very real concern that you were going 0:17:48.060 --> 0:17:49.879 to be beaten up or worse. 0:17:50.260 --> 0:17:50.460 Right. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.460 You know, the fact that you were able to hang 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.250 on for, you know, almost nine hours in this situation 0:17:56.390 --> 0:17:59.250 is a testament to your strength, even in this most 0:17:59.490 --> 0:18:04.290 terrifying situation that you found yourself in. So now you're 0:18:04.330 --> 0:18:06.840 expecting to go home because that's what they told you. 0:18:07.100 --> 0:18:07.280 Yes. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:08.359 But they lied again. 0:18:08.660 --> 0:18:08.880 Yes. 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.399 And so you signed this piece of paper. 0:18:11.900 --> 0:18:14.900 No, let me. There was no signed confession. I never 0:18:14.980 --> 0:18:17.899 signed a confession. And there was no audio or video. 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.280 It was just the cop's word as to what happened. 0:18:20.340 --> 0:18:22.640 And as a result of that, when we got to court, 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.890 they conveniently left out the threat and the false promise. Wow. 0:18:27.109 --> 0:18:29.450 I mean, it's actually strange, Jeff, that they wouldn't have 0:18:29.690 --> 0:18:31.060 just put a piece of paper in front of you. 0:18:31.070 --> 0:18:32.669 Because at this point, you would have signed anything. You 0:18:32.690 --> 0:18:34.630 would have said that you stole the Mona Lisa, right? 0:18:34.850 --> 0:18:35.710 If they asked you to. 0:18:35.750 --> 0:18:37.210 Yeah, sure. Yeah, of course. 0:18:37.230 --> 0:18:38.010 I mean, whatever. 0:18:38.050 --> 0:18:39.780 For a penny and for a pound. Look, man, I 0:18:40.020 --> 0:18:41.840 already decided I wanted to get the hell out of here. 0:18:42.140 --> 0:18:44.199 Tell you what you want to say. Yeah, this is 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:45.680 the next thing you want me to say? Come on. 0:18:45.900 --> 0:18:47.359 Get me out of here. Make good on your end. Yeah, 0:18:47.380 --> 0:18:49.129 you want this extra thing? Come on. You got it. 0:18:49.700 --> 0:18:50.780 Can you honor your word now? 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:55.260 So now you're arrested, and now the nightmare really begins, right? 0:18:55.359 --> 0:19:00.500 Because you're as unprepared for this situation as someone can be, right? 0:19:00.540 --> 0:19:03.359 You have no experience with criminal justice. You're not a 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.020 big guy. You're not a tough guy. You're not emotionally developed. 0:19:07.500 --> 0:19:09.919 to a point that you could be in any way, 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.130 you know, steal yourself for what's going on. You're not 0:19:13.230 --> 0:19:17.190 educated enough to understand the proceedings. You don't have a 0:19:17.330 --> 0:19:20.910 family that's able to hire, for lack of a better word, 0:19:20.930 --> 0:19:25.440 a dream team to help you. And so arrested in 1990. 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:26.899 And now you're held in jail. 0:19:27.260 --> 0:19:27.520 I am. 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:28.160 Awaiting trial. 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.290 I was in jail for like 35 days, and then 0:19:31.369 --> 0:19:34.990 I got bailed out. I got bailed out. At the time, 0:19:35.350 --> 0:19:39.230 my mother was dating a business person, Jack Ekesian, who 0:19:39.340 --> 0:19:43.340 had a carpet store, Ekesian Carpets, and he was willing 0:19:43.460 --> 0:19:47.850 to bail me out, which he was hammered in the 0:19:47.890 --> 0:19:51.409 newspaper for just the fact of. bailing me out. And 0:19:51.490 --> 0:19:53.840 he lost quite a bit of customers as a result 0:19:53.890 --> 0:19:54.450 of doing that. 0:19:54.690 --> 0:19:58.160 Wow. Innocent until proven guilty, right? 0:19:59.060 --> 0:19:59.620 So they say. 0:19:59.740 --> 0:20:00.220 Not so much. 0:20:00.700 --> 0:20:01.280 Not so much. 0:20:01.660 --> 0:20:04.919 So even he's tarred by this reputation that you have. 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.440 And now you go home, you're not in school anymore. Right. 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.320 You've been kicked out of school, I assume. 0:20:09.380 --> 0:20:10.840 Yeah, they would not allow me to go back to 0:20:10.900 --> 0:20:13.960 school until the case was resolved. And, you know, I 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:15.879 naively thought, you know, when I got bailed out, I 0:20:15.900 --> 0:20:18.460 was going to go back to my life. But there 0:20:18.500 --> 0:20:20.880