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Speaker 1: M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr joy Hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session to ten of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into

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Speaker 1: the episode right after a word from our sponsors. Black

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Speaker 1: people's relationships with religion and spirituality is a long and

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Speaker 1: storied one. As of late, I've been seeing more references

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Speaker 1: from sisters exploring African traditional religions as a means of

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Speaker 1: reconnecting to parts of our history and wanted to learn

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about it to help us dig

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Speaker 1: a little deeper into this area. Today, I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: Dr Diane Stewart. Dr Stewart is an Associate Professor of

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Speaker 1: Religion and African American Studies at Emory University, where she

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Speaker 1: created the course Black Love. She earned her m dea

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Speaker 1: from Harvard Divinity School and her PhD in Systematic theology

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Speaker 1: from Union Theological Seminary in New York City and lives

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Speaker 1: here in Atlanta. Dr Stewart and I chatted about some

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Speaker 1: of the major tenants of African traditional religions, some of

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Speaker 1: the common misconceptions, and she shared some of her favorite

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Speaker 1: resources for anyone wanting to learn more. If there's something

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Speaker 1: that resonates with you while listening to our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: be sure to share with us using the hashtag tv

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Speaker 1: G in session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today. That just Stewart, thank you. What's

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Speaker 1: my pleasure? Yeah, I would love for you to get

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Speaker 1: us started just by telling us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your journey. How did you come to study this area

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Speaker 1: of theology and how has it connected you to communities

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Speaker 1: in your travels. Thank you for the question. I would

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Speaker 1: say that my journey, in some ways, it has many beginnings,

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Speaker 1: but the most important beginning was my experience in college.

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Speaker 1: I was actually an English major and then I was

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Speaker 1: double majoring with African American studies, but it was so

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Speaker 1: early at that time for African American studies at my

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Speaker 1: institution that it was listed under social science. So I

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Speaker 1: wasn't a religion major at all. But what happens that

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Speaker 1: predominantly white campuses, as black students will get drawn to

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Speaker 1: wherever the black professors are. And so Dr Josiah Young

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Speaker 1: was in the religion department. He was amazing. He worked

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Speaker 1: with the Joint Dance Troupe and I had to take

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Speaker 1: a class with him, and then I just took probably

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Speaker 1: four or five classes with him by the time I finished,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't stop. And so he taught us so

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Speaker 1: many facets of Black religious experience Afrikaana, if I can

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Speaker 1: use that as an umbrella for Africa and the diaspora

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Speaker 1: Afrikaana religious experience. We learned not just about mainline Christianity,

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Speaker 1: but about the Nation of Islam, the more science, temple

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Speaker 1: conjuring Hudu, black Hebraic traditions, also African indigenous religions or

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Speaker 1: what I call African heritage religions, Black liberation theology, woman

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Speaker 1: is theology, African theology, including African feminist theology, and then

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Speaker 1: everything began to click for me in his class in

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Speaker 1: terms of understanding my own background and spiritual heritage. I'm

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Speaker 1: originally from Jamaica, from the Caribbean. I grew up in

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Speaker 1: the northeast in Hartford, Connecticut, and I attended Catholic schools

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Speaker 1: from the age of six to the age of eighteen.

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Speaker 1: And I think even that background, it's another beginning for

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Speaker 1: me because in so many ways I was compelled to

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Speaker 1: think theologically, even at a vernacular level as a child,

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Speaker 1: growing up thinking about the religious education I was receiving

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Speaker 1: in school, and then also going to a United Methodist

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Speaker 1: Church which was predominantly Jamaican, other Caribbeans, some African Americans,

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Speaker 1: and then having friends who belonged to the Colic Church

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Speaker 1: and my neighbors who were Baptists and going to church

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Speaker 1: with them, and having relatives who are also Holje or Pentecostal.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in a very diverse ecumenical even Christian

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Speaker 1: environ at but at the same time, there was that

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Speaker 1: cultural heritage, these spiritual traditions and remedies and practices that

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Speaker 1: people sometimes whispered about in my household, particularly the women

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Speaker 1: in and around my family. Circles that were always intriguing

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Speaker 1: and interesting to me. Right, So even when I would

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Speaker 1: go to birthday parties of some of the people I

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Speaker 1: went to school, but I was bust out. I was

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Speaker 1: part of that time when people were desegregating school systems,

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Speaker 1: and I was part of a project that was about

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Speaker 1: busting out very bright quote unquote inner city children, black

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Speaker 1: and brown kids, to white suburban schools. And so I

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Speaker 1: went to this Catholic school. And so when I would

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Speaker 1: attend birthday parties of my friends who are Irish Catholics

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Speaker 1: or Italian Catholics, I would see little food offerings in

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Speaker 1: front of statues at their homes. I would see things

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Speaker 1: that were not part of the Orthodox tradition we were

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Speaker 1: learning in school. So I learned very early that there's

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Speaker 1: the Orthodox confessional faith, right, what we profess as Christians

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Speaker 1: or what we say we believe in practice. But then

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Speaker 1: there is the vernacular, the kind of vernacular spirituality, the

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Speaker 1: broader range of practices and beliefs and customs that have

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Speaker 1: deep spiritual roots that people engage in whether or not

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Speaker 1: they're willing to admit it or confess to it. So

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Speaker 1: there are these professed beliefs and then there are these

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Speaker 1: practical beliefs, and so all of that had me curious.

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Speaker 1: And I think when I got to college and started

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Speaker 1: taking courses with Dr Young, I began to find the

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Speaker 1: conceptual framework for understanding my own African spiritual heritage. Things

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Speaker 1: just click to me. Made sense to me. It sounds like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's always so interesting when we're able to

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Speaker 1: kind of look bag maybe in the college years on

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Speaker 1: like our earlier chalities. Here is is it makes sense

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Speaker 1: of like, oh, that's what was happening in my friends

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Speaker 1: z right connects indeed, So I'm wondering if you can

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Speaker 1: do a little breakdown for us of some of the

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Speaker 1: different types of African and African diaspora religions. Yes, first,

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Speaker 1: let me say that there are a number of folks

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Speaker 1: scholars as well, but even just you know, your everyday

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Speaker 1: people who take issue with the concept of religion. I

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Speaker 1: often remind my students when I teach that religion is

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Speaker 1: our scholarly folk term. People live their lives right, They

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Speaker 1: live their lives in their cultures, orienting themselves to the

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Speaker 1: traditions that they have been bequeathed, and so religion really

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Speaker 1: is a scholarly term that we used to organize ideas

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Speaker 1: about the spiritual domain, and whether that is institutional or

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Speaker 1: un institutional. We need that term as scholars of religion,

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Speaker 1: and we become so accustomed to it in the Western

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Speaker 1: world that we think it's just natural and it emerged

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Speaker 1: out of communities. It really is this kind of scholarly term.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of practitioners of African heritage religions don't

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Speaker 1: like to be I'm told that they practice a religion.

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Speaker 1: They like to think of it as we are living

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Speaker 1: a way of life. We are orienting ourselves in the

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Speaker 1: way of life. And it's really true that what you

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Speaker 1: have in a lot of African societies are ways of life,

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Speaker 1: cultures that are deeply grounded and ideas that value and

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Speaker 1: promote the interaction with the invisible world domain. There is

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Speaker 1: a visible world domain and there is an invisible world domain.

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Speaker 1: And I often say to my students that the concept

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Speaker 1: of family is one of the most important lenses. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the most important portals to understanding African heritage

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Speaker 1: religions or religious cultures. Right, that family doesn't end when

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Speaker 1: people die, that the invisible world is a very vibrant

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Speaker 1: and active world, and the invisible powers. Those on the

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Speaker 1: other side have access to knowledge and power that we need.

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Speaker 1: And ritual, religious ritual, sacred ritual is the way to

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Speaker 1: get in touch with the invisible world powers. And so

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Speaker 1: it's I think it's really important to begin in that way.

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Speaker 1: And those invisible powers show up in people's lives in

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Speaker 1: all kinds of ways, and so people interact with these

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Speaker 1: deities or powers. And they're often associated with aspects of nature,

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Speaker 1: right with water, rivers, oceans, ponds, with mineral life, with

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Speaker 1: plant life, with animal life, with human life. They're associated

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Speaker 1: with volcanoes and all different aspects of nature, parts of

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Speaker 1: the human body, certain colors, and they're just quite vibrant

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Speaker 1: and multifarious and diverse kinds of entities. Every aspect of

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Speaker 1: African life involves encounter with and exchange with the invisible domain,

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Speaker 1: right and with invisible powers. And I often say to

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Speaker 1: my students, especially for the diaspora, because of censorship, because

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Speaker 1: of the kind of policing and punishing of African heritage religions,

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Speaker 1: we don't have extensive records about those religious traditions. I

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Speaker 1: often say that it's important to not just look for

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Speaker 1: where do I see deities showing up or where do

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Speaker 1: I see similar kinds of phenomena that we would associate

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Speaker 1: with monotheistic traditions such as Christianity or Islam or Judaism.

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Speaker 1: I say that we have to think of African heritage

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Speaker 1: religions as family traditions. They are traditions about family relationships.

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Speaker 1: Another very important lens or portal to perceiving African heritage

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Speaker 1: religions in the lives of African peoples in the continent

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Speaker 1: and in the diaspora is health and healing. Another important

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Speaker 1: portal would be dance and music. Another one would be

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Speaker 1: agriculture and nourishment. Another one would be security and protection,

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Speaker 1: and another one is weaponry and warfare. And that weaponry

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Speaker 1: and warfare repertoire becomes very important in the diaspora for

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Speaker 1: people who were enslaved in this country for two hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty six years. And oftentimes this is what's really troubling, tricky,

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Speaker 1: and maybe even deceptive about what we know about African

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Speaker 1: heritage religions in the diaspora. Oftentimes they become reduced to

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Speaker 1: weaponry in warfare because the sensational and the harmful or

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Speaker 1: destructive capacities that are associated with spiritual force, which has

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Speaker 1: taken very seriously in African spiritual cultures. African heritage religions

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Speaker 1: get reduced to that, you know, and that is such

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Speaker 1: a reductive view. And so yes, there are those weaponry

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Speaker 1: and warfare repertoires as well. So it's important to think

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Speaker 1: of African religions as ways of life. They are not

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Speaker 1: confessional religions. You don't profess something, you don't profess belief

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Speaker 1: in something. They're not about confessing a faith in some

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Speaker 1: sort of entity the way Christianity might be or Islam

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Speaker 1: might be, for example. They are about practicing a faith,

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Speaker 1: practicing a way of life. Can you talk about some

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Speaker 1: of the common religious practices across the diaspora. Some of

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Speaker 1: the traditions that have been most pronounced in the diaspora,

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Speaker 1: particularly today are definitely the Europa Lukumi Ifa, that complex

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Speaker 1: of traditions which have strong europe heritage. In Arisha. Let

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Speaker 1: me also say Arisha that complex has strong roots in

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Speaker 1: parts of modern day Nigeria. Been in some parts of Ghana,

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Speaker 1: but I would say more so modern day Nigeria and

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Speaker 1: Benin and other complexes are the Congo, Bantu and Gola.

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Speaker 1: These are the different name Jewel Here they're also known

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Speaker 1: as Paolo in Cuba. That complex is emerging out of

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Speaker 1: West Central Africa, and this is something a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't really understand. About forty seven percent from what

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Speaker 1: we know now, of the Africans who were deported into

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Speaker 1: the slave trade from the fourteen hundreds, those folks were

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Speaker 1: going over to Portugal in Spain from the fourteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: to the nineteen hundreds came out of West Central Africa.

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Speaker 1: The area that we identified with the Congo people's and

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Speaker 1: I mean Congo with a K, not the modern day

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Speaker 1: countries of Congo spelled with the sea. Now those peoples

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Speaker 1: are from that region and including Angola, Angola, modern day

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Speaker 1: Republic of Congo and modern day Democratic Republic of Congo,

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Speaker 1: which was formerly the Desire. And so that complex is

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Speaker 1: very pronounced, but they become very pronounced through their sacred medicines,

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Speaker 1: not through a quote unquote pantheon of deities. And that's

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Speaker 1: why it's even harder to see the Congo complex. We

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Speaker 1: can see the Eurba complex because the Arisha, the community

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Speaker 1: of deities or powers, are so prominent and it's easy

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Speaker 1: to identify them, whereas with Congo we often see minkisi

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Speaker 1: the sacred medicines, and those are not often as easy

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Speaker 1: to recognize, but they have certainly influenced African American traditions

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Speaker 1: such as conjuring, Vudu, Caribbean traditions such as obia, and

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Speaker 1: by the way, Obia was practiced in North America as well,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of people are not aware of that.

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Speaker 1: Another major complex would be the a Con complex coming

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Speaker 1: out of the Goal Post or modern day Ghana for

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Speaker 1: the most part, parts of Ivory Post as well, very

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Speaker 1: similar nature based religio just traditions, the abussam a kind

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Speaker 1: of community of deities or powers similar to the Euroba,

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Speaker 1: and also that the whole Me and Togo parts of

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Speaker 1: Ghana complex is. The last one is vo do. People

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Speaker 1: would typically pronounced the term voodo. A lot of practitioners

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Speaker 1: of this tradition prefer the pronunciation vo do to separate

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Speaker 1: it from the way the United States and the Western

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Speaker 1: world has invented this tradition of dark evil magic and

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Speaker 1: called it voo doo, and they don't want their tradition

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Speaker 1: to be associated with that invention, that kind of Western imaginary,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. About African heritage religions, so those are

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Speaker 1: some of the major complexes. As I said, voo Doo

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Speaker 1: is associated more with the home, which is modern day

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Speaker 1: been in Republic have Been in which is right next

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Speaker 1: door to Nigeria, and so Europa and vo Do traditions

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Speaker 1: have a long history of exchange and they're very similar.

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Speaker 1: They're almost like sibling traditions. And Togo also is a

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Speaker 1: strong center of voodoo. And the people of Ghana are

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Speaker 1: wood with songs as well. They practice voodoo tradition, very

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Speaker 1: powerful center of vood do as well. So those are

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Speaker 1: some of the complexes. But as I said, there are

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Speaker 1: other iterations of African heritage religions or at least a

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Speaker 1: religious practices that speak to cosmology, speak to spirituality, that

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Speaker 1: have to do with sacred medicines and so Conju and Hudu,

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Speaker 1: I would argue, are great examples of that. Aspects of

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Speaker 1: Obia tradition in the Caribbean are great examples of that.

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Speaker 1: They called that boso demandinga of course you hear the

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Speaker 1: men dingo in that term in Brazil. Before condomblay even

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Speaker 1: emerged in Brazil in the eighteenth century, Africans would wear

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Speaker 1: these little small pouches around their necks. Filled with herbs

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Speaker 1: and other healing elements for protection. And Dr CHOI, it

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Speaker 1: should not surprise us that in context of slavery that

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Speaker 1: the this aspect of African heritage religions would become quite pronounced.

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Speaker 1: I talked to my students about sometimes like seven to

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Speaker 1: ten different aspects of African heritage religions to help us

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Speaker 1: know how we can identify them. And one is the

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Speaker 1: prevalence or the belief in neutral mystical power, that there

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Speaker 1: is neutral mystical power, that power can be tapped into

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Speaker 1: as a protective force, as a destructive force. And boy,

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Speaker 1: don't you need some destructive powers if you're an enslaved person.

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Speaker 1: You need some protective powers if you're an enslaved person.

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Speaker 1: And I tell you, in North America we are seeing this.

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Speaker 1: The archaeologists are finding these little bundles, which is so African,

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Speaker 1: these bundles tied and contained in cloth or different kinds

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Speaker 1: of containers underneath old architectural designs from the slave period.

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Speaker 1: They're finding them, and they're finding sharp pins and nails

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Speaker 1: and marbles and other kinds of elements in there. But

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Speaker 1: I tell you, Dr Joy, what's not in there? What

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Speaker 1: is it? The herbs, they have already disintegrated, especially in

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Speaker 1: the Congo tradition. Many of these traditions, you need all

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Speaker 1: forms of life to heal and protect. You need human life,

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Speaker 1: you need plant life, animal life, and mineral life. And

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Speaker 1: so those pins the dirt, the grave, dirt, all of

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Speaker 1: that where the ancestral power is to be found. All

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Speaker 1: of that is often for protection. And boy, wouldn't you

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Speaker 1: need protection as an enslaved person, not knowing what could

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Speaker 1: happen to you. And so those traditions become very dominant.

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Speaker 1: But what's sad is that you can't reduce African religions

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Speaker 1: to those traditions, but they are important for people of

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Speaker 1: African heritage during the slave period. More from my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Dr stew It after the break, I just do it.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you could it give us those seven

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Speaker 1: commonalities that tell us so I mentioned some of them.

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Speaker 1: I one is, these traditions are not confessional religions, right,

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Speaker 1: they are ways of life. The second is, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to use the term they are communal things. We are

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Speaker 1: talking about the divine as a community. The divine operate

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Speaker 1: as a community. Africans have both the polly and the model.

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Speaker 1: They have the idea of the One, the High God,

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Speaker 1: and they have the idea of the many, what some

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Speaker 1: would call Polypeism, and they are a divine community. So

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Speaker 1: I love that thought. The third is ancestral veneration. I

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Speaker 1: don't care where you go in Africa, from North Africa

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Speaker 1: to all the way down to the tip of the

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Speaker 1: Cape of Good Hope, from the coast of Ghana all

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Speaker 1: the way over to Djibouti and Kenya and Ethiopia. Africans

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Speaker 1: are empowered to stay in connection with their ancestors. They

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Speaker 1: belo leave in ancestral power and ancestral realness. It's a

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Speaker 1: very important concept. The Episcopalian Bishop Desmond Tutu says, I

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Speaker 1: don't care what anyone says. I'm a Christian, but I'm

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Speaker 1: an African Christian and I'm an African first, and I

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Speaker 1: will never ever let go of my ancestors. So that

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Speaker 1: is critical, the power of ancestors, the belief in ancestral

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Speaker 1: life after death, and the power of ancestors that they

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Speaker 1: are still part of the family. Another is divination and herbalism.

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Speaker 1: There are particular technologies that are used to understand the past,

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Speaker 1: the present and to look toward the future in terms

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Speaker 1: of major life decisions, in terms of sickness and health,

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Speaker 1: and sickness and health are treated holistically. You cannot have

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Speaker 1: even physical illness without looking into the mental, the spiritual,

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Speaker 1: the emotional health of the person, the family, the community,

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Speaker 1: the society. All of this is treated holistically. And divination

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Speaker 1: herbalism they go together are in many respects. Right. There

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Speaker 1: are usually herbal remedies that are prescribed to heal clients.

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Speaker 1: So that's an important dimension. And this is very spiritual.

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Speaker 1: The deities, the gods are involved in divination and herbalism.

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Speaker 1: For example, plants. Plants are sung to when plants are

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Speaker 1: picked and will do they are prepared, they must be

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Speaker 1: as permission, and they are making a sacrifice. So it's

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Speaker 1: a very serious endeavor to pick a leaf from a plant.

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Speaker 1: You are sacrificing life to give life to something else.

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Speaker 1: And so there's also animal sacrifice and food offerings. And

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Speaker 1: when people say, well, why do Africans sacrifice animals, Well,

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Speaker 1: we first of all, we can ask that about multiple

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Speaker 1: religions around the world, because multiple religions around the world

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Speaker 1: practice animal sacrifice. But I often say Africans and people

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Speaker 1: I think around the world across time. Sacrifice animals because

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Speaker 1: we eat animals. Eating nourishment is a sacramental endeavor. It's

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Speaker 1: a sac a mental act. And so animal sacrifice is

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Speaker 1: a part of healing and nurturing in many rituals for

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Speaker 1: healing or for restoring balance, whatever it might be. After

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Speaker 1: the animals are sacrificed and the vital organs are offered

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Speaker 1: to the deities, the animal is cleaned and taken home

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Speaker 1: and the client is expected to cook the animal and

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Speaker 1: have a meal and share it with their family and friends.

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Speaker 1: This is a blessing. It's like the person receiving the

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Speaker 1: communion right receiving the sacrament of communion in the Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church or the Christian Church, the Protestant churches as well,

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Speaker 1: it's a very similar thing. So and I shouldn't just

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Speaker 1: say animal sacrifice. I should say food offerings, animal sacrifice

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Speaker 1: and broader offerings, because sometimes the offering that will be

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Speaker 1: expected would be to go and volunteer at a youth center,

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Speaker 1: to give cloth, to give clothing to children. So offerings,

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Speaker 1: period are such an important part of these traditions. So

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Speaker 1: let's see where my doctor joy us through it. That

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Speaker 1: was for neutral mystical power, which I've talked about again,

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Speaker 1: that there is neutral mystical power in the universe and

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Speaker 1: it can be used productively or destructively. But let me

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Speaker 1: say this, dr Joy, when you think about the many

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Speaker 1: persons who are accessing spiritual power, accessing it because they

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Speaker 1: want to bring either good fortune to their lives, think

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Speaker 1: about the nain of health and think about how many

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Speaker 1: stories we've heard or we've seen on those crime shows

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Speaker 1: where doctors and nurses betrayed their trespass, transgress their oath

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Speaker 1: to heal and kill patients with medicine. Right, one person's

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Speaker 1: medicine is another person's poison. So I only use that

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Speaker 1: as a way of showing that there is the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to use force, medicine spiritual power positively or negatively in

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Speaker 1: any setting, in any tradition. So another important aspect is

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Speaker 1: music and dance. Not that all music and dance are

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Speaker 1: related to religion and African Heritage religions, but dance is prayer,

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Speaker 1: dances invocation of the spirit. If you want to understand

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Speaker 1: liturgy and African Heritage religions, you have to take seriously

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Speaker 1: that dance vocabularies are prayer vocabularies. They are communication with

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Speaker 1: the divine and so you cannot have real religious ritual

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Speaker 1: that is community oriented that without that music and dance.

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Speaker 1: They're important for invoking the spirit, so to speak. And

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Speaker 1: then we have very important what many scholars will call

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Speaker 1: spirit possession or a spirit mediumship. Oftentimes a power, a

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Speaker 1: deity and ancestor has now become embodied, has entered the

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Speaker 1: body cavity of the host of the practitioner and is

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Speaker 1: communicating with the community. And another way to think about that.

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Speaker 1: People might not like these comparisons, but this is a

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Speaker 1: part of revelation. This is how revelation occurs. In African

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Speaker 1: heritage religions. Some people would say, for religions of the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote book, which were also oral religions before they

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Speaker 1: started writing them down, that God reveals God's Self through

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Speaker 1: the Bible or the Koran. But this is a very

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Speaker 1: important part of revelation. And I like to use some

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Speaker 1: of the practitioner words I've encountered in the field. In Trinidad,

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Speaker 1: I love the language that they use, they call it manifestation,

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Speaker 1: and love that the power manifests in the body in

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Speaker 1: the community. And then in Brazil they use the language

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Speaker 1: of that you're incorporating the spirit in the body, and

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Speaker 1: this is how practitioners communicate with their beloved deities to

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Speaker 1: whom they relate and get healing prescriptions for their children

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Speaker 1: and their families, they get advice. It's a very important

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Speaker 1: part of the tradition. So those are some that I

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Speaker 1: would emphasize just so much to go into doctors too.

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Speaker 1: What I mean, my goodness, I really feel like, especially

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Speaker 1: as you talk about like the dance and the singing

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Speaker 1: right like, I feel like those are the most clear

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Speaker 1: examples we see in like modern day like black religious experience.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there is a direct tide to these

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Speaker 1: historical ways of life as you are describing it. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if we can talk a little bit about how

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Speaker 1: these experiences have been demonized as opposed to European theologies.

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Speaker 1: You've talked about it a little bit, but I think

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Speaker 1: that that is something that a lot of people struggle

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Speaker 1: with because they are often seen as opposition to what

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Speaker 1: we've been taught in terms of Christianity and those kinds

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Speaker 1: of things. It really feels like some of these experiences

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Speaker 1: have been demonized. I wonder if you can talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that. So first and foremost, I really

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Speaker 1: want audiences to understand that if there's one reason we

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Speaker 1: should appreciate and and take some interest in the African

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Speaker 1: heritage religions, they were a lifeline. They were our lifeline

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Speaker 1: during slaves, especially across the fight or Americas and Caribbean.

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Speaker 1: They were first of all demonized, They were criminalized and

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Speaker 1: policed through legislation as a result of their involvement. How

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Speaker 1: significant they work for solidifying and helping African descendants to

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Speaker 1: actually rebel and resist slavery, which included things like burning plantations,

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Speaker 1: burning property. So that's important to know that this is

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Speaker 1: a very important starting portant for having African heritage religions points.

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Speaker 1: But even beyond that, when the Europeans were in Africa,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the seventeenth century eighteenth century, there was already

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Speaker 1: a kind of literature of tales and a kind of

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Speaker 1: oral tradition and some writing about African spiritual practices and

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Speaker 1: ideas that look down upon them. Because in Europe we

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Speaker 1: often think that Christianity is Europe's religion, it's not Christianity.

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Speaker 1: After the rise of the Early Church, where we see

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Speaker 1: the formation of the Church in the scriptures and the

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Speaker 1: Pauline scriptures, and paul Is trying to form these churches

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Speaker 1: in Asia Minor or what we would call parts of

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Speaker 1: the Mediterranean in Northeast Africa today, and these churches spreading,

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Speaker 1: these little house churches. Once Constantine adopts Christianity in the

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Speaker 1: late fourth century as part of as the religion, the

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Speaker 1: official religion of the Roman Empire, it takes on a

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Speaker 1: different power valence. It becomes a religion of empire, and

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Speaker 1: Christianity becomes a violent, um, dramatic, and terroristic religion that

430
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: conquers Europe and demonizes Europe's indigenous religions. Europe calls it

431
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: the Dark Ages because they have now assented to a

432
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: Christian identity, a Christian understanding of themselves, of their their heritage.

433
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: They've wiped out their indigenous religions, although not totally, not totally,

434
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: there's some interesting things that have happened there. And so

435
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: Christianity is a conkering religion in Europe. And so when

436
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: these European explorers and travelers are going out, they have

437
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: been taught to hate and demonize their own indigenous religion,

438
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: and then they're seeing some similar kinds of practices, and

439
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: so they are then also going to look down upon

440
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: and demonize and considerate backwards and considerate not of God,

441
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: only of the devil, because that's the only way they

442
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: could understand something. If it's not of God and its

443
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: spiritual power, it's demonic power. Right, So that narrative, that

444
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: kind of lens is also operative, and you see it

445
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: in the colonial records. So they're constantly, you know, comparing, oh,

446
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: we did this in the old country and that was

447
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: backwards and evil and demonic and what have you. So

448
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: you have that right going on as well in the colonies.

449
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: And so there are different iterations of the denigration and

450
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: police and in criminalization of African heritage religions in the

451
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: New World. But this idea of that, if you're not

452
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: worshiping the Chris Shin Good, every other power is suspect,

453
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 1: is evil, is of the devil. African religions have no

454
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: chance in that context. Right. There's another very important context.

455
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: During the early twentieth century, US occupied Haiti and the

456
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: Marines came back to the United States. Many of these

457
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: Marines with all these tales and hearsay and all kinds

458
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: of outlandish claims about voodoo in Haiti, and that started

459
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: the long tradition of the demonization of voodoo in American

460
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: culture especially and in the wider Western world. It's these

461
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: kinds of deep layers of understanding that we never get

462
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: when we learn about voodoo. We always have these reductive

463
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: treatments of any quote unquote magical aspects of these traditions.

464
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: So we have to think about the police and the

465
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: criminalization of the containment of African heritage religions relative to

466
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: a long history of rebellion of these traditions and the

467
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: Haitian Revolution, there's a great example of these traditions being

468
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: the groundwork for bringing solidarity and weaponry and warfare to

469
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: rebel against the colonial and enslaving powers during the period

470
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: of enslavement. And then, of course the kind of theological

471
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: perceived theological differences that Europeans, who have been conquered themselves

472
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: by Christianity, who had taught to hate and despise their

473
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: own indigenous religions, only kind of extended that kind of

474
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: analytic lens to the Africans, the Asians, the Pacific Islanders,

475
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: and the Aboriginal peoples that they were encountering during their

476
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: quote unquote era of discovery, which in itself is an

477
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: invented urn and concept. More from my conversation with Dr

478
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: Stewart after the break, I'd love to hear your thoughts

479
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: about the ways that Africa and traditional religions foster collectivism

480
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: and community that feels particularly i think attractive to younger people,

481
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: and I think especially after this last year, when people

482
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: have felt so isolated and we know that we are

483
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: grappling with an epidemic of loneliness, I love for you

484
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: to just hear about, you know how some of these

485
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: religions lost to this sense of collectivism and community. Indeed,

486
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: let me say one thing first. I think we have

487
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: to take seriously the psychic and mental impact of colonial

488
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: teachings about blackness, black people, black women's worth or lack

489
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: of it, as sinners, all the damaging effects of certain

490
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: forms of Christianity that have been quite pronounced. Certainly, there

491
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: are ways that we have resisted that in Black Christian communities.

492
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: There's no part about that. But I have to say

493
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: that African heritage religions provide a certain kind of solidarity

494
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: around a new spiritual, cultural, and even personal consciousness about

495
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: a person's worth. When you're in a tradition where you

496
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: don't have to do mental gymnastics to get that white bearded,

497
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: white male god off your eyeball, as you know, Feely

498
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: would say in the color purple. When you're in a

499
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: tradition where the gods look like you, that's already doing

500
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: something in fostering a healing community. So there's a lot

501
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: of attraction to these traditions because they're decolonial in that way.

502
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: It's not that they haven't been influenced by colonialism, especially

503
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: when we look at, you know, some of the impact

504
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: through the Cuban traditions, where white Cubans have been a

505
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: part of it. But in general, you're looking at traditions

506
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: that offer new ways of recreating the black self and

507
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: the black female self, in particular their female deities. It's just,

508
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: you know, incredible, right. But also these communities are house communities.

509
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: In fact, many times their temples are understood to be

510
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: house communities. What do they do? Sometimes people also talk

511
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: and think about the mothers, and I mean that in

512
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: the sense of their spiritual role in these communities. They

513
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: feed people, for example, organized around a ceremony or a

514
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: healing ceremony or celebration for one of the deities or

515
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: whatever it might be the anniversary of someone's initiation. Oh

516
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: my goodness, you pull community together. You have to sing

517
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: people into health, you have to dance people into health.

518
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: You have to create the spread the feast not only

519
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: for the deities, but for the community, for the children,

520
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: for everyone to eat. So it's like building home, building family.

521
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: You are participating together in a ritual language that connects

522
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: you to African languages. All of these kinds of the singing,

523
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: the movement, the collective movement, with the dances. So the

524
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: ritual life is very communally oriented. The way in which persons,

525
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: even clients who might not be a part of these

526
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: African heritage traditions, the way clients have to participate in

527
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: their own healing is also very powerful for many people,

528
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: not just This has been such an incredible wealth of information.

529
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: I feel like we could be here for hours digging

530
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: into all of this. But can you share some of

531
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: your favorite resources for anyone who wants to learn more? Yes,

532
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: I would point people to to texts. Initially, Doctor one

533
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: Day Bimbala his book Ifa Will Mend Our Broken World,

534
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 1: and it's a very accessible book at the vernacular level.

535
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: It's wonderful. He's one of the most prominent Eurobea scholars

536
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: and Baba Laws, which is a priest of ifa Ifa

537
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: will mend our broken world. And another is by his son,

538
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: Dr Cola Bimbala, who's a professor of philosophy and law

539
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: at Howard University. His book euro Book Culture of Philosophical account.

540
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: Let me recommend us to the Encyclopedia of African and

541
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: African American Religions. It's a really great reference. It's something

542
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: that they might be able to access online as well.

543
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful reference because they have great articles in

544
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: there that are quite long. Everything is in there from

545
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: the Ethiopian Orthodox Church that came out of Marcus Garvey's movement,

546
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: to the traditional Black churches too, I mean the most

547
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: obscure African or African diasporic religions. They're they're covered. So

548
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: that's just a great reference source. And I'll say there's

549
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: also the Encyclopedia of Caribbean Religions, which are two volumes,

550
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: very very good sources for folks as well. Again, we

551
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: also know where can people find you with the best

552
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: way to kind of stay in touch with all the

553
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: amazing things you're doing. Yes, I am on Twitter, um

554
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: at Diane M. Stewart at Diane M. Stewart. I am

555
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram, but it's pitiful. Dr Joey. I just have

556
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: to tell you, my niece, my this is it is

557
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: all new for me because of my book. I think,

558
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: you know, I wrote a book that is more public

559
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: facing black women, black law, America's War on African American marriage,

560
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: and that is what got me out to social media.

561
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: So it's one of the best ways. I'm also on Facebook,

562
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, look me up Diane with two n's d

563
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: I A N N E. M. Stewart um, and I'm

564
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, Georgia, and so you can find they can

565
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: find me on Facebook as well. Well. We appreciate it.

566
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Do just do. It's such incredible information.

567
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: I appreciate you she and your time with this today.

568
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: Oh thank you. It was my pleasure. I so appreciate

569
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: the work that Therapy for Black Girls does. It is

570
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: a needed, needed resource for all of us. So thank you,

571
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm so glad that Dr. Stewart was able

572
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: to share her expertise with us today. To learn more

573
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: about her and her work, are to check out the

574
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: resources she shared. Be sure to visit the show notes

575
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to

576
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: tend and don't forget to text two of your girls

577
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode as well.

578
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be

579
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for

580
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want

581
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic, are just being community

582
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in

583
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: the sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet

584
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: design just for black women. You can join us at

585
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Thank you

586
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: all so much for joining me again this week. I

587
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: look forward to continue in this conversation with you all

588
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,