1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Cool Media. Welcome to it could happen here a show 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: about things falling apart. This week, the thing falling apart 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: is the US healthcare system science in general, but specifically 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: the healthcare system. I'm Garrison Davis and today I'm joined 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: by a very special returning guest, doctor Kappajode. Hello. 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: Hey, Yes, the thing falling apart is you, the listener. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 2: So it's very important that you listen up. You were 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: going to do anyways, but in particular you should be 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: paying attention here because this is important stuff. 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: So in mid May we got we got some news 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: in the FDA, CDC Human Health and Services front, as 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: there's been there's been a lot of news in the 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: health front, but specifically, we're going to be talking about 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: the new guidelines for COVID vaccines that the FDA is 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: trying to push through in the United States. So the 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: new f Commissioner, Marty mccaray and the top vaccine regulator 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: of an Aprocad have published a quote unquote study you 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: pushed back on the use of the word study in 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: the New England Journal of Medicine about the COVID vaccine 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: booster shots. Yeah, and are going to be changing the 21 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: guidelines for how these are going to be administered and 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: who has access to them, particularly those under the age 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: of sixty five, might have a harder time getting the 24 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: COVID booster that they have like the past few years, 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: requiring certain pre existing conditions to qualify. And they have 26 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of arguments for this. They say they're 27 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: trying to make this more in line with the vaccine 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: guidelines and other countries. They're proposing further studies on the 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: necessity of COVID vaccines for those under sixty five and 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: for someone like me who tries to keep up with 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: COVID boosters and you know, doesn't like it getting infected 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: with COVID. Some of this can see a little bit 33 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: both confusing and worrying and considering, like the anti vaccine 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: takeover of the FDA and like the Federal Health Services 35 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: in general, it's a frightening move. 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: I guess yeah, I think you're right to feel concerned. 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: It is something I am a little concerned about for 38 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: a couple of reasons. One, I mean, I just don't 39 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 2: flatly agree with limiting the use of the vaccines the 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: people they're planning to limit it to. I mean this 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 2: is coming from the medical freedom crowd. I feel like 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: people should at least have the bodily autonomy to have 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: the vaccine if they want it. That's a part of it. 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: But I'm actually even more concerned about the bigger sense 45 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: of what this represents. You know, on the surface, making 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 2: some changes is not totally unreasonable to our vaccine policy, 47 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: and we generally reassess our COVID vaccine policy annually, so 48 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: that's not too abnormal. But the thing is, we have 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: this whole system set in place to do it in 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: a efficient, smart way that is public, and there's a 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: process to it. If I can give you a little 52 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: bit of a sense of how it normally runs and 53 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: what's going to happen now, I think it'll explain why 54 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 2: I might have my concerns. 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be very useful to hear. 56 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: So normally there are some clinical trials, there's some studies 57 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: that happen, some real world data, some points that can 58 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: be looked at, and then. 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 3: The FDA uses this advisory committee. 60 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: Again, these advisory committees are not career politicians. They're scientists, 61 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: their public health officials, their doctors, people volunteering their time. 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: I don't think they get paid other than maybe food 63 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: and their expenses, but other than that, they're not paid 64 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: for just this job. And what this group. The first 65 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: group is called the VRBPAC and they determine if it's 66 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: a safe and effective vaccine. If it is determined that way, 67 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: then the FDA grants a license and approval. From there. 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: There's another group, the ACIP, and that's an Advisory Committee 69 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: on Immunization Practices, and it's the same sort of thing. 70 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: It's a group made up of scientists, healthcare professionals, public 71 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: health professionals, and people will come together, they'll determine who 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: should get it, and then the CDC director signs off 73 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: and then it gets out there to the world. Now, 74 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: basically what we have is two political pointees, both of 75 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: which have these massive axes to grind on the subject, 76 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: have some severe chips on their shoulder about what's happened 77 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: so far to them in this conversation and this dialogue. 78 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: Who are going to bypass this whole scientific system, who 79 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: aren't going to be looking at these questions like what 80 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: is our growing immunity? Is annual booster still warranted? And 81 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: they're going to take this outside of that and basically 82 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: make the decision, and I find that to be very concerning, 83 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: even past like this basic premise of like, you know, 84 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: does this mean that my friends or myself I won't 85 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: be able to get the vaccine that I want to get. 86 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: So I find it to be very concerning. And you 87 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: alluded to that article in the New England Journal of Medicine. 88 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: It did not alleviate my concerns. 89 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: One of the guys here, the guy who's heading up 90 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: the vaccine regulations, has compared the US COVID response to 91 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: Nazi Germany. He has boosted anti VAXX claims from Robert F. 92 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior. 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: And he's blocked me on Twitter. 94 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: Come on, and truly his most heinous offense. 95 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 3: How could you block me? I'm lovable? No. 96 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: Me and this guy, Robert Evans were joking yesterday never 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: heard of it, about about how some of your personal 98 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: nemeses have have been put into positions of like government power, 99 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: and how you're upset about that, and I remarked, oh, 100 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: first time, because this has unfortunately been the trend of 101 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: our work the past few years, These these weird online 102 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: figures who we've developed personal agrievances against for being bad people. 103 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: Suddenly now are like in the for echelons of power 104 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: in the US government. 105 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: Hey, I like them, they just don't like me. 106 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true. But regardless, do you 107 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: have any other notes on mccari andad like specifically? 108 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 3: Uh, you know what I'll say. 109 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: So A big thing about this article that they put 110 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: in there, and what they talk about a lot, is 111 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 2: trying to get more farm companies to do large studies, 112 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: which you know, on the surface, totally reasonable. But the 113 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: thing about it is not every problem can be solved 114 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: with what's considered the quote unquote golden standard of studies, 115 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 2: the double blind randomized control study. 116 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: Some studies just can't. 117 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: They want to see that these companies are doing these 118 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: studies to say that it's good and safe and beneficial 119 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 2: for younger people. 120 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 3: But there's a couple of problems with this. 121 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 2: Okay, One, I'm not entirely sure that's ethical, Like, if 122 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: we have we have something that works, if we know 123 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: this vaccine helps, and we do CDC studies have shown 124 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: that these boosters helped for at least four. 125 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: To six months, possibly life saving medication. 126 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: Exactly is it ethical to deny somebody that, Like, would 127 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 2: I want to be a part of that study. I 128 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't I wouldn't want to get potentially the placebo. So 129 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: that's part of it. But even beyond that, to do 130 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: these studies, it's lengthy. They are long studies. If you 131 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: want to do it, and you want to do it right, 132 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: it takes a while. So by the time they do this, 133 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: by the time they do the study, even if I'm 134 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: being very generous in how long it takes them, by 135 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: the time we get the results, we'll be onto a 136 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: different mutation. We know that this thing mutates, we know 137 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: it's going to change into a different virus, and we 138 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: won't even know if that study that we just spent 139 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 2: all the time doing works on it. So we have 140 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: other options for studying these things. They're not double blind, 141 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: randomized controlled studies. But we have other studies at work, 142 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 2: and there are plenty the epidemiologists out there, vaccineologists, people 143 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: who know way more about this than me, and to 144 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: be fair, know more about this than Prasad and Macary. 145 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 2: They're the ones saying this is not a good idea. 146 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: So I'm like saying, let's listen to them. Let's listen. 147 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: They know what they're talking about. They're smart people. I've 148 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 3: met some of them. 149 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: They're great, and it doesn't make sense to me on 150 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: an ethical or practical level to do it that way. 151 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: Do you know what doesn't make sense to me? 152 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: I know, I do, I do? I do? I can 153 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: I say? 154 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 2: Kind I guess you can guess. I'm guessing that commercials 155 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: don't make sense to you. But really, at this point 156 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: in your career, they should make sense. 157 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: I should know by now, but still the concept is 158 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: a little bizarre. Here they are Okay, we are back. 159 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: I guess let's get into more how this will affect 160 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: the average listener, like what these things could mean like 161 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: both in I guess the short term and then like 162 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: the long term. If you're trying to plan out your 163 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, your health a journey, what kind of like 164 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: risks you have if you're you know, compromise, what that 165 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: means for you versus if you're magical, perfectly healthy you know, 166 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: twenty five year olds yeah, uh, prancing around with with 167 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: no issues France and as the kids do. Kids love 168 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: to prance. 169 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: So in the short term, it's not clear in a 170 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: month that advisory committee I mentioned the ACIP is going 171 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: to meet or they're supposed to meet. I don't know 172 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: if it's all going to happen, And they're supposed to 173 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 2: determine who should get this so first, since first they 174 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: could they could disagree. It would be the first time 175 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 2: I've seen it. I've never seen the FDA and the 176 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 2: ACIP not be in lockstep in this regard. And maybe 177 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: it's happened, but I can't think of it in like, 178 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what will happen. That'll 179 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: be a little bit of chaos, and it'll be interesting 180 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: to see what happens to that point. But if it 181 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: goes as the FDA now plans, it will limit who 182 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: can potentially get these vaccines. If you're not over sixty five, 183 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: if you don't have a what's considered a risk for 184 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 2: serious disease like asthma, cancer, kidney disease, certain types of 185 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: liver lung disease, diabetes. If you don't have any of 186 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: these things, then it's not clear to me. Will the 187 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: pharmacist not give it to you? Will the pharmacist check 188 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: if you tell them you have one of these things? 189 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: Will insurance cover it? I don't know, and that's really concerning. 190 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: I think the price is going to go up, and 191 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: that does relate to the bigger concern, the long term 192 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 2: problem in this, which is, I mean, Kennedy has said 193 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: he's not taking away vaccines. Great, he doesn't actually need 194 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: to take away vaccines. He just needs to do things 195 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 2: like this so that nobody wants to pay for it. 196 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: Nobody wants to go through the process of studying it, 197 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: nobody's going to make them. Insurance companies aren't going to 198 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: pay for it. People aren't going to end up being 199 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 2: able to afford it. They're going to be lesser and 200 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: fewer of them, and they will go away naturally on 201 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 2: their own because of this. That's really the long term 202 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: concern that I have. This the short term concern, I mean, 203 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's going to be interesting, you know, 204 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: like there's certain things on this list that the CDC has, 205 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: Like for example, physical inactivity is. 206 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 3: On this list. I mean, how who could argue with 207 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 3: you on that? 208 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 2: Like, you know, if you tell the pharmacist you're having 209 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: physical inactivity, will they I don't know will they check that? 210 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 3: How will they check that? 211 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: So I don't know what will happen in the short 212 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: term and the long term definitely big concerns. 213 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: It seems like part of their strategy here is just 214 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: putting as many roadblocks in between you and vaccines that 215 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: could save your life as possible, to further whatever like 216 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: conspiracy driven worldview that the people at the top have 217 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: and just like the inhumane side effects that's going to 218 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: have across the entire population. 219 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean to also put this into context, COVID. 220 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 2: We're in a better situation than we were years ago, 221 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: that's certainly true. But at least from the CDC records alone, 222 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: forty sive thousand Americans died from COVID related diseases last year. 223 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: At least two thirds of that number were directly due 224 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 2: to COVID. And amongst that, there are about two hundred 225 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: and thirty deaths from kids. That is a significant number, 226 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: And at least you can say at least one hundred 227 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: and thirty of those kids were directly related to COVID 228 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: and not from some other problems. So this is significant 229 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: stuff that we're still dealing with. And long COVID can 230 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 2: affect people. Long COVID can affect all groups. It can 231 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: affect young and old, So it is concerning and it 232 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: bothers me in particular, that the group doing this, as 233 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: I said in the beginning, is the medical freedom group, 234 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 2: And this is sort of the exact opposite of this. 235 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: I think this demonstrates how much medical freedom has actually 236 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: just been a dog whistle for like this conspiracy theory 237 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: driven belief this entire time. Like people clamoring for medical 238 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: freedom don't have to believe in it. They're against trans healthcare, 239 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: they're against vaccines in general. They want to put autistic 240 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: kids into like behavioral like therapy programs to try to 241 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: make them not not autistic. Like it's it's it's not 242 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: actually about medical freedom. It's about it's about advancing a 243 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: very specific conservative and conspiratorial worldview that actually controls what 244 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: other people are allowed to do with their bodies. This 245 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: is like a massive, a massive part of their project. Yeah, 246 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: and like I don't know how else you can like 247 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: interpret moves like this, which are just going to jeopardize 248 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: people and put them even in more danger. 249 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's going to get worse. We can see 250 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: the effects already. Just today, Moderna withdrew their application for 251 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: a COVID flu combo vaccine, a one shot vaccine that 252 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 2: would have both and the studies on that so far 253 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 2: were really good. Actually they showed they looked really promising, 254 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: and they're just doing this because you know, okay, now 255 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: do we have to have these double blind control studies 256 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: for this? And they know it's going to be a 257 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: hostile environment. And now it's withdrawn and there's going to 258 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: be more and more of that way. Way before your 259 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 2: time or my time, there used to be more pharmaceutical 260 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: companies making vaccines. There used to be a lot more 261 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: than there are now. There's only a handful now, but 262 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: there used to be a lot. And then there was 263 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: like this CBS show about the protessis vaccine and it 264 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: was called like Russian roulette, this could give you, like 265 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: this could end your life. And there's like one like 266 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: made for TV like show about it. It wasn't a movie, 267 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: but it was like a special they did and it 268 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: raised such concerns that letters started pouring in to the network, 269 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: and they then started pouring into Congress and there was 270 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: a whole hearing and after that we had a significant 271 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: drop off in regards to the companies that make these vaccines, 272 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: and we have a few now, and I am worried 273 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: that this could be another sort of inflection point in 274 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: that in that history, in that arc of vaccines, and 275 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: we're going to get even fewer now. 276 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been devastated watching the like advancement of 277 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: the HIV vaccine, which seemed like it was nearing completion, 278 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: gets tolled for a number of reasons, including like DEI 279 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: policies getting pushed across these health departments because the HIV 280 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: vaccine research uses you know, terms like gay and and 281 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: trans and it mentions. Yeah, you know, all all all 282 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, which is which people focused on 283 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: in the first few months. I'm super nervous about the 284 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: COVID nasal vaccine getting basically shelved, and every every like 285 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: new thing we see come under the FDA just makes 286 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: those fears heightened. Yeah, it's it's pretty rad not to 287 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: be too depressing, but that is kind of the that 288 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: is that is the mood of this show in some 289 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: in some ways, like people people can still you know, 290 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: wash hands, mask up at this point, people can still 291 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: get the vaccine, but like the way that the way 292 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: that we've been like treating like the widespread health of 293 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: this country has already been pretty bad the past few years. Yeah, 294 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: and this is like trying to intentionally make it worse. Yeah, 295 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: it does feel like that sometimes. Yeah, I am concerned 296 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: about it all, but you're all right. We still have 297 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: as of now. I mean, there's still some options going 298 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: forward in terms of vaccines, and hopefully we'll continue to 299 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: have them totally and we'll see how this plays out. 300 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: I'm really curious the next month will. 301 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: Be very telling when we have that ACIP Advisory Committee again. 302 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: If it's allowed to happen, and they allow people like 303 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: Paul Offit, people who are real vaccinologists, people who know 304 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: about vaccines, not just appointed political people, but people who 305 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: actually study this know it. If they come on and 306 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: they can provide enough pressure, if people can support them, 307 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: then I do think that there is there is some 308 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: hope that the pushback will will. 309 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: Help us alleviate some of this restriction. I hope. 310 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: Would the people on the like a ACIP panel be 311 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: like political appointees, Do they have the same like risk 312 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: of all these other people put in under RFK Junior 313 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: where they're very clearly politically there versus like careerists who 314 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: are actually actual experts in the field. 315 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: Well, unless they change it. The ACIP is not set 316 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: up like that. The ACIP is just you know, these 317 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: really great group of independent doctors and scientists, public health 318 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: experts that are using real world data. They're looking at 319 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: how the immunity shifts over time. They're looking at the 320 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: virus and seeing if it's changing. Really volunteers that come 321 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: from the world of science to do so. So as 322 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: of now, they're not. That's not how the group works. 323 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: I don't know if that'll hold. I mean, I don't 324 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: see any reason why they couldn't if they wanted to 325 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: scrap the ACIP get rid of the people on it. 326 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: You know, people who. 327 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 2: Are vaccinologists who are of great significance to the community, 328 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: like you know, Peter Hotez or your Paul Offits, these 329 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: scientists who really study and look at these things and 330 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: put in just people who are already in line. I mean, 331 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 2: unless I'm missing something about it, I don't see why 332 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 2: they couldn't do that. I hope they don't. I think 333 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: there's enough scientific background in Prasad and McCary that they 334 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: would recognize the importance of an independent council. 335 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm not sure. 336 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: Well, that's good to know. We don't need to be 337 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: fully doom or pilled on that. But it's a good 338 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: thing to watch out for. Do you know what I'm 339 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: gonna be watching out for, Kava, I do. 340 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 3: I certainly do. 341 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: You're gonna be listening more than watching, but you're going 342 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: to be listening for some really great ads. 343 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: OKT kave I guess I'd also like to touch on 344 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: this actual piece in the in the New England Journal 345 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: of Medicine. Yeah, they're quote unquote to evidence based approach 346 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: to COVID nineteen vaccination, which is more of a blog post, right, 347 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: it is not a study, It is a blog post. 348 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: And specifically they talk about how the United States has 349 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: a much more like severe vaccine strategy than other countries 350 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: in Europe, and they try to use this to justify 351 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: their own beliefs, saying that they're trying to bring things 352 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: in line with the vaccine policies in other countries. Is 353 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: this real? Is this true? I don't live in Europe. 354 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: I'm not super familiar with the European vaccine guidelines. I 355 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: don't expect you to be an expert either. 356 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: No, it's really funny though that you mentioned it, because 357 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: it's so funny what they decide to endorse about European 358 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: policy will socialized medicine. Most of these European countries have 359 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 2: socialized medicine. They will have nothing to do with that, 360 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: and then they'll nitpick certain things. So there is some 361 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: truth to the fact that we are doing things differently. 362 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: And again I'm not opposed to looking at that and 363 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: being like, Okay, what are other countries doing, does it work? 364 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: And could we do that? So there is a difference 365 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: are currently until now in the US it was generally 366 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: recommended for anyone over six months. People weren't being made 367 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: to have this. By the way, again, medical freedom. 368 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: You know, no, I was pretty sure that Joe Biden 369 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: will send a swat team to your house and shoot 370 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: you unless you get the COVID vaccine. That's what I 371 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: was told on the RFKQ and your podcast. 372 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 2: I mean, he is somehow, simultaneously a decrepit old man 373 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: who's certainly confused, but somehow able to orchestrate an incredible 374 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 2: from the depths, darkness, deep state espionage. So I guess 375 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: it's possible, and that's how we do it. It's how 376 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: Canada does it. The UK they do do to little friendly. 377 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 2: They do it for people greater than sixty five. They 378 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: do it for residents and care homes. They do it 379 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: for people greater than six months and high risk, and 380 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 2: people who are greater than twelve years of age but 381 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: are in a house where someone's a meal compromised. They 382 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: do it for anyone who's over sixteen who helps care 383 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: for someone who's vulnerable, and they do it for all 384 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: social and healthcare workers. I mean they have a different 385 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: system in place. They have, as I mentioned, socialized healthcare. 386 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 2: In general, they're very good about their vaccines, so it's 387 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: hard to tell. It's a little bit of apples and oranges. 388 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: But it's funny what they decided to pick and not 389 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: pick about that. And it's also fundy why some groups 390 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: are missing under our care, Like a lot of places 391 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: will vaccinate anyone who's overweight. Here they don't consider being 392 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: overweight a risk for COVID, So that it is funny 393 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: how they're choosing their nitpicking certain things that are recommendations 394 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: common recommendations in other countries and not using them here. 395 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 2: So they do it a little differently in Europe. 396 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 3: That is true. 397 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: And again this is the kind of stuff that they're 398 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: going to evaluate every year. The ACIP will evaluate the 399 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 2: look at the emerging data to look at the other 400 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: countries to look at what's being done and they'll discuss it. 401 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 3: So it is true, and. 402 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: It does seem reasonable on the surface when they say 403 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 2: it like that, hey, we're just trying to get and 404 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: they mentioned this in the New England Journal of Medicine article, 405 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: we're just trying to get more in line with the 406 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 2: rest of the world. And that's not really true. It's 407 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 2: like they're just picking certain things that they want to 408 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 2: agree with and ignoring all the other stuff about their 409 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: healthcare system that we could benefit from. 410 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: One of the more wild aspects of this again Glorified 411 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: blog post is talking about how the COVID vaccine booster 412 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: program has actually undermined public trust in vaccinations, which is like, again, 413 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: this is like we're all looking for the guy who 414 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: did this moment wearing the hot dog constitu quote. Even 415 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: healthcare workers remain hesitant, with less than one participating in 416 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three to twenty twenty four fall booster program. 417 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: There may even be a ripple effect. Public trust and 418 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: vaccination in general has declined, resulting in reluctance to vaccinate 419 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: that is affecting even vital immunization programs such as that 420 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: for me Zills, mumps and rebella. 421 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 3: Oh so weird. 422 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 2: I wonder if it's the people that have been talking 423 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: about how corrupt and terrible the FDA and CDC are 424 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 2: for like the last five six years. 425 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: It's insane that they're that they're like able to like 426 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: do this like it's yeah, I don't. 427 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 2: I mean, it is an ongoing inside joke amongst people 428 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: in the medical community. 429 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: The hot dog meme guy. 430 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: That's a very common like attribute to these to these 431 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: characters who talk about, you know, how how they're clearly 432 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 2: sowing the seeds of mistrust and then capitalizing off of it. 433 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: I don't know if they even mean to or not. 434 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: And people ask me a lot, they're like, you know, 435 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: why why are they why why do they do this? 436 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: And I that's a tough one for me. That's your 437 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 2: friend Robert Evans. I ask him that every time I'm 438 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: on his podcast, as there's a point in the podcast 439 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: where I earnestly I don't do this on purpose, where 440 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 2: I just don't understand and I need to understand why 441 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: it's being done. And in these cases it's hard, you know. Previously, 442 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: if VNE Persod had a podcast that people really liked 443 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: called the Plenary podcast in the medical community. I never 444 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: listened to it because I don't listen to medical podcasts. 445 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 3: Why would I. 446 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 2: And what it did basically was it would break down 447 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: like studies and go over them in a very sort 448 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: of skeptical way. And I think it's good as a 449 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: doctor to be skeptical. I think that's a good attribute 450 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: for us to have, and it was useful in many ways. 451 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 2: But then I don't know if it's audience capture. I 452 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 2: don't know if it's true belief. I don't know what shifted, 453 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: but it does seem that it was a steady growth 454 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: into this contrarian perspective from the medical community that doesn't 455 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: totally make sense to me, Like they all kind of 456 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: feel like they're galile or samulwise, that they had this 457 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: rare contrarian opinion that made them special and they were 458 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: attacked for. But in my mind, it's not so much 459 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: of that as it is you know, there is a 460 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: scientific process that we have. Galileo followed a scientific process 461 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: and that's how he came to those conclusions. These people, 462 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 2: I don't feel are following that and they are strict 463 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: to their method. Idolatry to what they feel needs to 464 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: be done, and I don't feel like they're listening to 465 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: the experts in the field explained to them why that's 466 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: not the case. That's how every hero probably feels in 467 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 2: every situation. But they have somehow become the victims in 468 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: this story. And I am very curious to see now 469 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 2: that they're in power, how that shifts and if they 470 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: maintained this sort of victim mentality. 471 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: Well, how can you be a victim when we have 472 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: beef tallow back at stake and shake everyone. We did it, 473 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: beef tell we did it, Joe, We're bad. 474 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: We sure did. Maga coated coconut oil. 475 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: Now I'll be completely healthy again. 476 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is so funny to me. I mean, like, 477 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: we could talk about seed oils, we could talk about 478 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 2: the quote unquote Hateful eight, we could talk about all 479 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: that stuff. But it's it's pretty clear that oils are 480 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: better than tallow for your health, and beef tallow there's 481 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 2: very little, like there's a little proof to prove that 482 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 2: it's good for you, and a lot of proof to 483 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: say that animal products are bad for your heart. Yeah, 484 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 2: so it's absurd that that's an argument that we're still 485 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: having this in twenty twenty. 486 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: Five now instead of frying in beef tablet oil instead, 487 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: I had just drink a full eight ounces of grape 488 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: seed oil every morning to wake up. It does wonders 489 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: for me. It just gets the whole body up and run. 490 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 3: In lubricates the whole system. 491 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: That's right. I know you can't give medical advice, but 492 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: do you have any advice to give listeners before we close? 493 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: At least people who are like you, afraid of what 494 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: these changes from rfk's FDA will mean for like them 495 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: in their community. 496 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's okay to be concerned about it, 497 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 2: but I do think there is some time to go. 498 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 3: There's going to be a lot. 499 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: Of people from the medical community fighting to try and 500 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: fight these restrictions on the vaccine. So we'll see how 501 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: that goes. You will probably be able to find ways 502 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: to do it. You should talk to your doctor about it, 503 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: be as your doctor probably can see a risk factor 504 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: that you don't. If you don't see one that automatically 505 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 2: fits that list from the CDC, your doctor might be 506 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 2: able to find one that that is. And I'm not 507 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: talking about fraud, I'm talking about like real things. Your 508 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: doctor may be able to look through your chart, look 509 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: through your history, talk to you and find a risk 510 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: factor that you didn't think was a risk factor, like, 511 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: for example, physical inactivity or you know, smoking. So there 512 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: are things that we can look for, and as they 513 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 2: shift those goalposts, which I'm sure they will, we'll also. 514 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 3: Be trying to find around that as well. 515 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: And you know, when the ACIP comes out, there's going 516 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: to be a lot of pressure on them, and I 517 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 2: think we can pressure our Congress and we can pressure 518 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: our representatives to support them, at least nominally to discuss it, 519 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: if nothing else, because I don't think this is getting 520 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: talked about that much. So I think if we can 521 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 2: bring it to the public attention, I think we can 522 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: shift the narrative on vaccines. I do believe that the 523 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,719 Speaker 2: narrative has shifted on COVID and vaccines in this terrible way, 524 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 2: this revisionist way where everyone pretends it's not it wasn't 525 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 2: a big deal and that we didn't lose millions of people. 526 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: And I think if we can keep that in the 527 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: public discourse, I think that alone will help. 528 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 3: I think that's important for us to do. 529 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: And that's what people you know on Reddit and people 530 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: on the Internet and Facebook, and all that stuff can 531 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: do is they can help keep this in the public 532 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: eye and fight that incipient I don't know if that's 533 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: the right word. Insidious is probably the right word. It's 534 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: this really subtle sort of reconstructing of the narrative of 535 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: what COVID was and how important these vaccines are. So 536 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: that's how people can help in the immediate future. And 537 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: then you know, stay tuned, talk to your doctor about 538 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: vaccines and when you can get them, and get them 539 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: as soon as you can. I do think that's a 540 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: good idea for both flu and for COVID boosters when available. 541 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: Cave lovely talking with you as always. Where can people 542 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: hear you talk more on the internet? 543 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: I am on a podcast called The House of Pod 544 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: and it is a humor adjacent, fun ish medical podcast. 545 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: I would say it's not adjacent to humor. I would 546 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: say it is on target. 547 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 3: What we're next door to humor. 548 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: We next door to humor. We speak a little humor, 549 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: not a ton. But you will like the show. If 550 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: you like this, I think you're gonna recognize a lot 551 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 2: of the same people. Gear, for example, has just recently 552 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: been on an episode, and you know, you'll we'll get 553 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: gear on again, I hope, and you'll you'll find people 554 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: that you like. There are a lot of the same 555 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: sorts of people. We take a skeptical look at medical 556 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 2: grifters and the wellness community, so a lot of the 557 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: same stuff you love from these shows. In the extended 558 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 2: Behind the Bastard universe, you'll also get into I think 559 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: our podcast, the House of Pod and finding it anywhere, 560 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: The House of Pod, the House of Pod. 561 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: The first time I met you online, I was invited 562 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: onto this show, and you know, it was a pretty 563 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: busy year twenty twenty. There was a lot going on 564 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: for me with the you know, riots and such and 565 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: the you know, whatever damage was done to my brain 566 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: via all that tear gas, and for some reason, and 567 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: I don't quite know why, I wonder if I was 568 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: just conflating two messages, but I thought I agreed to 569 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: go onto a medieval history podcast, not a medical podcast. 570 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: So as things just started, I was a little bit confused, 571 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: And then I went back to reread the message of like, 572 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: oh no, it definitely says medical, and I still don't 573 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: quite know how I did that. Like I said, a 574 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: lot going on that you. 575 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 3: Did great whatever it was. Whenever you thought you were 576 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 3: doing you did it well. 577 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: But whenever I think of your podcast, I now also 578 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: think about medieval history. So there you go. 579 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, hey, okay, that's cool. I'll take it. 580 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: I'll think we did do an episode. I mean not 581 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: every episode is strictly like medical stuff. Like I did 582 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: an episode with these guys who wrote this book on 583 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: Sparta and the battle with the Persians and how the 584 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 2: story has been sort of turned into something grossly that's 585 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: not partially because of three hundred and partially because of 586 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: other reasons. Yeah, and so there is a little bit 587 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 2: of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, 588 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: you liked that episode. 589 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: How often do you think about their Roman Empire? 590 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 3: I don't. 591 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: I think about how the Persians killed a lot of 592 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 2: them over them thermophylly. 593 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: That brings me a little spark of joy. 594 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: Okay, good to know, just kidding listening, I don't. 595 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 3: I don't approve of people being murdered. I don't. I 596 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 3: don't even if they're jerks. 597 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: Good to say this day at age. 598 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. 599 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: So much, Kathe, thank you, thank you for having me. 600 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone 601 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 2: Media for more podcasts from cool Zone Media. 602 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: Visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out 603 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 604 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could 605 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.