1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: It's that time, time, time, time, Luck and Load. 2 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: Michael Varry Show is on the air. 3 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 3: It's easy to think these are the worst of times, 4 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 3: but actually, in many ways, we are living through a 5 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 3: golden era. You know, when you stop and think about 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 3: the fact that, you know, when I was a kid, 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 3: if you were a fan of gun Smoke, for instance, 8 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 3: you might occasionally get a gun Smoke rerun, or if 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 3: you were a super fan of Johnny Carson, might occasionally 10 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 3: get a Johnny Carson show that would air outside the 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 3: usual time when you watched it, or maybe there'll be 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: a brief interview. But then all of a sudden, this 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: golden era of the ability to get really granule granular, 14 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 3: to really geek out on subjects that you care about 15 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 3: and learn everything there is to know about it. Well, 16 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: that was true of YouTube, where people could put up videos. 17 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 3: But then we entered the podcast era. The people who 18 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: do what I do were scared to death of the 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 3: podcast because they would replace them. And I was asked 20 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: by people in the business of media, are you worried 21 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: about podcasts? And I said, no, If you're ever worried 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 3: that someone else's content is going to replace you, your content's. 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: Not very good, make it better. Use that as a challenge. 24 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 3: I love the fact that there are people who indulge 25 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: they're absolutely crazed, insane fanaticism of various things, and they 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: make podcasts about them, and they build up the crime podcasts, 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 3: which are mostly a female which is interesting. It's true 28 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: of crime, it's sports, military, so many things. So I 29 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: came across a fellow named Mark Malkoff, who is a 30 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: Johnny Carson nut, and he wrote a book about Johnny Carson, 31 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: and it's entitled Love Johnny Carson. One obsessive fans journey 32 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 3: to find the genius behind the legend. And we were 33 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 3: partly interested in how someone gets so obsessed with something 34 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: that they do a podcast, which we find to be 35 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 3: really cool. But we happen to believe that a part 36 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 3: of what we do here and a big part of 37 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: what Rush did, and Rush was an inspiration to us, 38 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: as well as everything that came after. We're all based 39 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: on the genius of Johnny Carson, so we don't question 40 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: his object of affection. Mark Malkoff, host of the Carson 41 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 3: Podcast and author of the book, Welcome to the program. 42 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: Thanks for having man. It's a pleasure. 43 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 3: So let's start with before we get into your project 44 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 3: and your love of Johnny Carson, which we share, we 45 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: just don't share your extensive knowledge of him. What was 46 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 3: the basis of your Carson interest. 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: My dad got into Carson when I was a young 48 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: age five or six, stand up Friday nights, and there 49 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: was nothing more fun. I mean, Carson was great with kids, 50 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: with animals, with one hundred year old people, with celebrities. 51 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: It was my introduction to show business. Rodney Dangerfield. I 52 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: didn't understand the politics certainly when I was a kid, 53 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: but it was this party and I just had so 54 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: many questions about how the show was put together. It 55 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: never occurred to me. I had talked to over four 56 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: hundred people, and everybody would want to tell me their story. 57 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: People really really loved this time at their period. They 58 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: loved Johnny Carson. Hence the title the book Loved Johnny Carson. 59 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: I'm sure you got a lot of when you said, Hey, 60 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: I'm doing a book on Johnny Carson, you had a 61 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: lot of people kind of that's the statement love of 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: Johnny Carson. You interviewed more than four hundred people. Carol Burnette, 63 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 3: l Brooks, Bob Sackett, Larry King, Michael J. Fox, Palaoun 64 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 3: Pounds tone. Was there anybody you called who had a 65 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: reason they would not do an interview, like they didn't 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: like him or they felt slighted. 67 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't get Joan Rivers I really wanted to I do. 68 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: She was nice to me, but I couldn't get her. 69 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't get Waye Newton, who had a problem with Johnny. 70 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: But those are really the only two people that had problems. 71 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: Pretty much everyone else wanted to talk to me. David Letterman, 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: who I actually worked for, I couldn't get him. 73 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 4: He's very hard to get interviews for. 74 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: Maybe Bette Midler, But overall, it was like everybody wanted 75 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: to talk everyone from bab Youuger to Jimmy Buffett. 76 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 4: They would tell me how special it was. 77 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: Jimmy Buffett told me before Johnny Carson he couldn't get 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: booked on television. He said, Mark, you were the first 79 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: one ever to ask me in my entire career about 80 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: Johnny Carson. It was the biggest break of my life. 81 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: So these people just wanted to tell me their stories. 82 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: It was unbelievable the access I got just because of 83 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: Johnny's name, and he's been off the air for over 84 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: thirty years. All the late night hosts still talk about Carson. 85 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: It's a test it to Carson's ability in his work. 86 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 2: Well, we use his music when I tell Dad jokes. 87 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 2: We often hold the show, we play clips of the show. 88 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: It was so important to the zeitgeist of American comedy 89 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: at the time, but so influential in that everyone is 90 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 3: carrying a piece of that today and will be for 91 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 3: some time. So many people developed some aspect of their 92 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 3: comedy from that. I mean, many is the time. I'm 93 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: fifty five. Many is the time that I will stay 94 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: up late at night and in order to decompress after 95 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: I prepared for the show the next day, I'll go 96 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: to old Carson episodes and I'll watch him interview Don Rickles. 97 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: I mean, it's hard to explain how funny Don Rickles 98 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: was to someone today. Let me ask you a couple 99 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: questions things that I know you wrote about in the book. 100 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: Carson hated Saturday Night Live, and that's part of the 101 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 3: reason he left. That's what you say in the book. 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: If it was in the beginning, He's the one that 103 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: basically got Saturday Night Live going, Because if Carson didn't 104 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: want re runs anymore of the tonight show of Saturday 105 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: eleven thirty. So Lauren Michael, the creator of SNL, went 106 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: to Johnny's office and got his blessing to do this 107 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: show eight episodes in an unknown Chevy Chase is on 108 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: the cover of New York magazine and they're announcing him 109 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: as the likely successor to Johnny Carson, and Chevy said something, 110 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: I never want Johnny's job, and Johnny took offense at that. 111 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: Jamie Curtin on Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live made 112 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: fun of Johnny, and then eventually Johnny was really upset 113 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: at the Dana Carvey sketches where Dana Carvey was mocking 114 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Johnny Carson, making. 115 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 4: Him look out of touch and seen Island. It really did. 116 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: One of the reasons why Johnny quit is because he 117 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: did not want to be perceived like Bob Hope, we 118 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: thought suck around way too long. Carson wanted to be 119 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: remembered at the top of his game, and those sketches 120 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: of the Saturday Night Last sketches really really hurt him. 121 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: But I've had the opinion. I've had this view before. 122 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 3: Ramona, our producer, and I've talked about Johnny car arsenal 123 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: a lot, and we have a real love Johnny Carson 124 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: is to book. We have a real love for Johnny Carson. 125 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 3: And obviously he was a more complicated man than he 126 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 3: betrayed portrayed on the show. 127 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: But he also he was very sensitive. One of the 128 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: things you. 129 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: Hear and you know better than I is that he 130 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: was very sensitive to criticism. 131 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 4: She was. He was a sensitive period. 132 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean when he would go home to Nebraska, it 133 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: gets sentimental and cry in his boyhood home. When he 134 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: went back, he just yeah when his friend the best 135 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: drummer maybe of all time, but hey Rich, he found 136 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: out twenty minutes before the show that Buddy. 137 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 4: Rich died bald in his office. 138 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: Sobbing his red eyes during the monologue fairly can get 139 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: through it. But the criticism was one thing that Carl Sagan, astronomer, 140 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: was good friends with Carson, and he on the show 141 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: interrupted Carson twice and corrected him, and Johnny just was 142 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: really embarrassed. 143 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 4: They never had Sagan on again. 144 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: You would think that somebody in the publicuy would be 145 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more than skinned, but Carson was just 146 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: deatly sensitive. If he believe somebody hurt his feelings or 147 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: wasn't loyal to him. They pretty much didn't exist anymore. 148 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: And and that is a man of great and deep passions. 149 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: Hold with us for just a moment. 150 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: We're talking to Mark Malcoff, host of The Carson podcast 151 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: the book Love Johnny Carson, One Obsessive Fans Journey to 152 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 3: Find the Genius. 153 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: You Got the Michael Berry Show? 154 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 4: Who Came? 155 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: Martin Malkoff is our guest. 156 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: He is the host of The Carson Podcasts, a podcast 157 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: about Johnny Carson. He is the author of the book 158 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 3: Love Johnny Carson, One Obsessive Fans Journey to Find the 159 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: Genius behind the legend on air battles that came into blows. 160 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 3: It wasn't every night, but it did happen, And part 161 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: of that was a lot of these folks were drunk. 162 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 3: George Pepperty was drunk. He got into a battle with 163 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 3: Paul Williams, Marlon Brando and joj al Kabor. Again, I 164 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 3: think alcohol in that era was much more common, and 165 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: I think that may have. 166 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 2: Been part of it. 167 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 3: But what did you make of that happening so often 168 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 3: on his show? 169 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: People were drinking, they were smoking, and it was just 170 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, back then people would remain on the panel, 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: on the couch, and sometimes you get these personalities where 172 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: a drunk George Popard, you know, famous from The A 173 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: Team and other movies, called George called Paul Williams a midget, 174 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: and Williams got up ready to fight George Poopard. I 175 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: talked to Paul Williams about that, and I watched the clip. 176 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it's Carson. It was just complete anarchic. I 177 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: think that was part of it. Now everything is very 178 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: produced and safe, where back then they would keep the 179 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: mistakes in everything. Carson believes he never wanted a stuff 180 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: tape and occasionally a drunk Marlin Brando in nineteen sixty 181 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: four in Jaja, it got it in on it together and. 182 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 4: It made for good television. 183 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: Carson once had Chevy Jason, the prop comic Gallagher on 184 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: and they got into a scuffle and just verbally, verbally, 185 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: but you never. 186 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 4: Knew there was danger. Now that doesn't. 187 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: Happen, but even Carson doing his monologue, but sometimes a 188 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: joke wouldn't work and it would bomb, and there was 189 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: that danger with Carson being such a skilled comedian, being 190 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: able to recover and being even funnier on a bomb joke. 191 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: There wasn't a safety that there is now in late 192 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: night TV. And I think that was part of the. 193 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 3: Excitement you talk about in the book speaking of alcohol 194 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: and drugs at the time and being more open that 195 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: he saved a comedian's life who had been addicted to drugs. 196 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: That's right now. Johnny would talk on the Tonight Show 197 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: about his battle with alcohol. He'd say that he would 198 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: have one drink too many and he would turn into 199 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: a till of the hunt. And some people when they 200 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: drink would get fun loving. Johnny said he would go 201 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: to the office and want to fight everyone. Ed McMahon 202 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: saved him many times. So at Frank Sinatra, it was 203 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 1: something he struggled with. So there was a comedian that 204 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: went on the show many many times and did stand 205 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: up and he had. 206 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 4: A bad drug problem. 207 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: And the comedian's father actually wrote Johnny Carson. 208 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 4: That I need your help. 209 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: And Johnny sat down with this comedian and said, I 210 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: am not going to book you on the show anymore 211 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: until you go into rehab and you were you're going 212 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: to kill yourself. And this comedian, because of Carson and 213 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: a few other people, got clean and sober, and to 214 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: this day, gives Carson credit for saving his life. And 215 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: then once he was clean, he was back on Johnny's 216 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: show and happy ending. And Carson would do that for people. 217 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: He didn't want credit. He when he left one hundred 218 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: and eighty million dollars foundation to charity, he didn't want 219 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: credit for it. I mean he was just behind the 220 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: scenes constantly. These are the stories that got from the people. 221 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: That's why the books called love Johnny Carson, and they said, 222 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: I love Johnny Carson. Just a carrying, caring guy comedians. 223 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: He would help the young comedians out with a joke suggestions, 224 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: Like George Lopez, when he viewed, for example, said after 225 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 1: the show, Carson sat down with him and said, I 226 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: would change it to this, And Lopez took Carson's advice 227 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: the next night and said that Carson was absolutely right. 228 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: The biggest left he was he was un a that's 229 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: right to have the comedian look good. His number one 230 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: rule was I'm going to make my guests look good. 231 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 1: He didn't have to top the comedians like some late 232 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: night hosts have to be the funniest one. And Carson 233 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: was secure with himself to just kind of stay back 234 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: and let the guest shine which is very uniquely John Ay. 235 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, he had a comedic genius his timing. You know, 236 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 3: I have studied his show. Aside from being entertained, I've 237 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 3: studied his timing. And you know Rush Limbaugh, who was 238 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 3: a master of a purely audio medium being being radio, 239 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 3: and I think responsible for the reason we have talk 240 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: radio today. He saved the dial. He had such incredible timing. 241 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: Carson's timing is just incredible. It's unkenny how good he is. 242 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 3: It's like watching Tom Brady. You don't realize how good 243 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,599 Speaker 3: he is because he makes it look effortless. 244 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: He makes it look easy. He doesn't seem to be struggling. 245 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: You're right, And all these people that were guest hosts 246 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: would try to do the show and found out how 247 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: hard it was. It looks easy. You have Jameson Roger 248 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: Moore try to guest host the show. 249 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 4: He's so nervous when he's guest hosted. 250 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: He's literally sweating through his suit during commercials. We had 251 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: to bring a hair dryer on to try to dry 252 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: his suit because he was perspiring so much. Because it 253 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: was so difficult, people like Arnold Palmer and Joe Namath 254 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: would try to guest host The Tonight Show, Kirk Douglass 255 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: and Johnny. 256 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 4: Would watch it home with these. 257 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: People attempting to do his job and thinking it's hilarious. 258 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: Once in a while you'd get a David Letterman or 259 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: Gary Shandler or Jim Rivers that could do it. But 260 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: he had the hardest grind and show business. I mean, 261 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: it was unrelent and the beginning he's doing an hour 262 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: and forty five minutes and went down to ninety minutes essentially. 263 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 4: In an hour. But everybody said it was a punishing grind. 264 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 3: You know, Alec Baldwin hated conservatives and conservative radio. 265 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 2: And they're all blowhards. And so he was going to 266 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 2: do his own show. 267 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: Very talented our actor, incredibly talented actor. And so he 268 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 3: hosts a show one day and within the first minute 269 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: he tells the producer, let's say the producer's name. 270 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: Was Bobby, do we have any calls? 271 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 3: No, okay, well get us some calls, and about twenty 272 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 3: seconds later, within the first five minutes he asked for 273 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: calls about fifteen times. And we play it sometimes from 274 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 3: a purely chaden freud basis that it's not as easy 275 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 3: as it looks to do what someone does well, and 276 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: he thought, well, I'm good at everything else. I think 277 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: people thought, you know, I'm just being Johnny Carson's easy. 278 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: You just go out there and laugh a little. Oh 279 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: my goodness, the best that ever was made. It seem 280 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 3: so darn simple. You know you talked about town competitors. 281 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he had a lot of competitors and he 282 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: annihilated them all. In nineteen seventy one. 283 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: He a Dick Habot, David Frost, MERV Griffin, maybe Joey Bishop. 284 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: He had four TV's going on at the same time. 285 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: At eleven thirty in his apartment, He's stettying his own 286 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: show in all the competition, nobody more competitive than them. 287 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 3: Wait a moment, talk about an all star team list 288 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: that Dick Cabot, MERV Griffin. 289 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was either Murf Griffin or Joey Bishop. 290 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: And then David Frost had a TV show opposite. So 291 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: Carson is studying all his own show and everybody else. 292 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean the Dick Haviot show with the 293 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: clips on YouTube are unbelievable. 294 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: And I Gotebot told me. 295 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: Being twelve years old, meeting Johnny Carson, who would have 296 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: been twenty two at the time. Oh, he was doing radio. 297 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: He was a local magician and Cabot met Carson in 298 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: a church basement in Nebraska. Told me all about meeting Carson. 299 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: Backstage during Johnny's Magic show, he introduced twelve year old 300 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: Dick Cabin and two other magician friends and they both 301 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: stood up and Cabot wrote in his diary in his 302 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: journal that night, this was the greatest day of my life. 303 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: I met Johnny Carson. 304 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 4: Wow. 305 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,359 Speaker 2: He uh. I enjoy. 306 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 3: His interviews so much, his voice, his delivery, and the 307 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 3: way his brain works. I find it to be absolutely 308 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: just a fascin and very smart, very smart discussions, very 309 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 3: smart interviews. I think I think he was He was 310 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: so very good at that. It's it's uh, it's amazing. 311 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 3: Hold with us if you will. Mark Malkoff is our guest. 312 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: He is the host of the podcast known as The 313 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: Carson Podcast about Johnny Carson, and he is the author 314 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 3: of the book Love Johnny Carson. One obsessive fans Journey 315 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 3: to find the Genius behind the legend. Some of you 316 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: know we are massive Johnny Carson fans. Here on the 317 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: Michael Berry Show. 318 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: Like Malcoberry's show, when someone has a deep passion. My 319 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: wife has that for gardening. 320 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 3: I've got many friends who have that for guns, others 321 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: who have it for cars, others who have it for travel. 322 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 3: I find that people who have a passion, whether it's 323 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: a hobby or a study or a collection, those people 324 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 3: tend to be happier people. It gives you an outlet, 325 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 3: a place to put your happiness, a place to bottle 326 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: it up and pull it back out and let the 327 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 3: aroma overcome you. I think it's a healthy thing to do. 328 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 3: I've enjoyed watching the podcast space grow and develop. Of 329 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 3: course we have a podcast. It's a rebroadcast of our show, 330 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 3: but we do separate episodes that are just for our 331 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 3: podcast listeners, and I really enjoy. At the end of 332 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: the year, these are starting to come in. People will 333 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 3: will tell me, they'll send a screenshot. Hey, I'm your 334 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: number one fan, I'm your number four fan. I listened 335 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: to one Guy ninety nine one hundred and five minutes 336 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 3: or hours or whatever it was of your show this year. 337 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: You were the Your show was the number one show 338 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 3: I podcasted this year. I enjoy the heck out of that. 339 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 3: When I started, we were just radio. When we added podcast, 340 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: it was meant to just be complementary. That's with an E, 341 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 3: not an iramon. It's not like, oh, such a nice podcast. 342 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 3: It was meant to go well with it. But the 343 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 3: podcast has allowed people, many of whom have kept their 344 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 3: day job but now indulged their desire to talk about things, 345 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 3: and many of whom have have surpassed some radio people 346 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 3: in what they make in the process. Some of these 347 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 3: are very monetizable, but in any case, it gives us 348 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 3: these places to go and really get deep into a 349 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 3: subject that we love, and we love Johnny Carson. So 350 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 3: Mark Malkoff is the host of the Carson Podcast and 351 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: the book Love Johnny Carson, One obsessive fans journey to 352 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: find the genius behind the legend. He did not find 353 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 3: Tim Allen funny prior to Home Improvement and wouldn't let 354 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: them book him. 355 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: That was yes, that was Johnny's tallon. Booker Jim McCauley 356 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: did not think Tim Allen was funny, and Tim Allen 357 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: had to get on Home Improvement and it was I 358 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: think five show in American Finally he got booked on 359 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: the show and they did not want him to do 360 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: stand up, but he said, this is my Dream and 361 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: he did okay, but they if he didn't get Home. 362 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 4: Improvement, they never would have put him on. 363 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: He was one of those people for whatever reason that 364 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: just they just were not fans of. 365 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 3: It's interesting. He also had a list of banned show 366 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 3: guests and why they were vanished, and I'll start with 367 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: Jay Leno, who was banned for you wrote seven years. 368 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, Jaylino went on the show and did extremely well. 369 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: And this was a good problem I had is that 370 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: Johnny wanted him back very quickly, and he kept coming back. 371 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: Jaylino ran out of material and so much so that 372 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: he had a couple appearances where he did really poorly, 373 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: and Johnny said, I don't like him anymore. 374 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 4: He's never doing the show again. 375 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: And then Jay Leno started going on David Letterman's twelve 376 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: thirty show in NBC and got red hot, so so 377 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: much so in nineteen eighty six, Johnny Carson relented and said, 378 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: I want Leno back. Leno very wisely said I want 379 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: a guest host. They gave him two guest hosts. He 380 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: did well, and then he became permanent guest host, and 381 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: we know he inherited the Tonight Show, but it was 382 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: at seven or eight years where he couldn't get booked 383 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: on Carson's show. 384 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: What was Carson's response to Leno getting the show instead of. 385 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: Letterman, Yeah, it was he definitely wanted Letterman to get 386 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: this show, but NBC never asked Johnny. It was one 387 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: of those things where they wanted to get the permanent 388 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: guest host job to Gary Shanley, and Shanley turned it down. 389 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: They were reluctantly gave it to Leno, and then Leno 390 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: went to all the NBC station affiliates with his manager, 391 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: Helen Kushnik, politics to all the affiliates that is good 392 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: with NBC, and Dave Letterman on his show was calling 393 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: the NBC executives' penheads, making fun of ge the parent company. 394 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: Who are they going to get the Tonight show to? 395 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: It was obvious that they were going to go to 396 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: the person that would be easiest to deal with, So Johnny, 397 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: he really wanted it to be Dave Letterman, but NBC 398 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: just went with the sayd choice of Leno. But when 399 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: Johnny did retire, he made a cameo in Dave Letterman 400 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: show and he never went on with. 401 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 4: The line out. 402 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, he had just a close relationship with with 403 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: with Dave, and Jay's manager planted a fake story that 404 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: NBC wanted Johnny out in nineteen ninety one, and there 405 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: was there was a little bit of bad blood, but 406 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: Johnny was okay with Jay after a while. But it 407 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: was one of those things that he was really rooting 408 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: for Dave. 409 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: That whole drama behind that. I remember that playing out. 410 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: That was pho fascinating stuff. I mean, that was captivating. 411 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 3: I don't I don't think anybody would care today if 412 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: Kimmel or Foalden or you know, any of those guys. 413 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 3: But at that time that was you know, you only 414 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 3: had the three networks that those were. 415 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: Those were heady days. 416 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 3: You mentioned Gary Shanling, and you know he was such 417 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 3: a big deal for a while there. My favorite Shandling 418 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 3: line is he said that television makes everyone fatter. It's 419 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: added ten pounds to my lips. Very prominent, right, It's 420 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 3: a great line. 421 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: Shandling was his dream was the guest host the show, 422 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: and Albert Brooks was set to guest host for the 423 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: first time in nineteen eighty three, and then Albert Brooks 424 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: had a kidney stone was in the hospital and as 425 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: an unknown second time ever an unknown person guest host 426 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: at the time, so previously David Letterman was unknown when 427 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: they put him on, and Shandlin got the call to 428 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: guest host and started bawling his eyes up because his dream. 429 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 4: Was coming true. 430 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: And you can see him coming at the guest host 431 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: for the first time, unknown in his. 432 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: Eyes or water he just because this giant grin. 433 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: On his face of this dream is coming true. 434 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 3: I can only imagine there. You talk about the first 435 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 3: ever correct list of banned show guests why They're vanished, 436 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 3: which includes Swellen de generous Uh, Carl Sagan, his friend, 437 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 3: William Shatner, Jerry Lewis. 438 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: Gary Lewis was rude to Carson staff. Carson expected anybody 439 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: that came into his home to be a guest or 440 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: guest host to treat everybody with respect, and Lewis did, 441 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: and so he was banned from that. Ellen DeGeneres was 442 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: told not to do a joke that they deemed offensive. 443 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: If she did it, she was never allowed back on 444 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: with Carson. It was just he looked at it has 445 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: just having the people having manners. William Shatner went on 446 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: Johnny and would not let Johnny get a word in 447 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: for two or three minutes in the opening, and we 448 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: was telling him this long winded story, no payoff, not 449 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 1: approved in the pre interview, and he was just and 450 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: then he turned his back to Carson and talked to 451 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: Buddy Hackett, who was the previous guest that was strike 452 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: to strike number three is back then, Johnny Carson would say, 453 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: our next guest is on the TV show TJ Hooker 454 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: on another network on Saturday night, and you weren't allowed 455 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: to say the network, And of course Shatner said, watch 456 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: me on ABC, and that was the third strike and 457 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: they had to mute that out of the broadcast and 458 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: Shatner was never welcomed back after that point. And then 459 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: Carl Sagan, the astronomer, him and Carson were very good friends. 460 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: But Sagan interrupted Johnny twice during a spot and corrected 461 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: him on a statistic, and Johnny was just as you 462 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't think a guy like that would get so be 463 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: so sensitive and so embarrassed. 464 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 4: But he never would have say been on again. 465 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: I would maybe other people wouldn't, but I've studied him 466 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 3: so much that I find out there's you know, you 467 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: don't end up that big a deal and be sort 468 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 3: of blase about it. People underestimate how competitive people like 469 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 3: this are. And you have to be so intense because 470 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 3: it is your being being Johnny Carson, the television personality. 471 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 3: You know, there was no space left for anything other 472 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 3: than that, and that's his whole. 473 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: Life all the time. 474 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,239 Speaker 3: And I think people are surprised at anyone like that 475 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 3: who appears to be so petty because everyone else is 476 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 3: so balanced. Well, that's the reason you're not super successful 477 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 3: is because you're balanced. There is a trade off, and 478 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with that. More with our guests, our 479 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 3: Vital segment, Mark Malkoff, most of the Carson Project podcast 480 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: and the book is Loved Johnny Car. 481 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 2: Jackie Here, Where's Jackie? 482 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 4: A crash that killed Congresswoman Jackie will. 483 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 3: Or Ramona and I talked about Johnny Carson a lot. 484 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,719 Speaker 3: You will notice Johnny Carson clips played. You will hear 485 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 3: Johnny Carson show audio when I tell one of my 486 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 3: goofy Johnny Carson one of my one of my goofy 487 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 3: dad jokes. And so when we discovered there is a 488 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 3: podcast called the Carson Podcast about Johnny Carson by Mark 489 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 3: Malcoff in a book Now Love Johnny Carson. One obsessive 490 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 3: fans journey to find the genius behind the legend. We 491 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 3: had to have him on and so everything we needed 492 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: to know about Johnny Carson. And we're racing to our end, 493 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 3: so I'm going to ask you rapid fire questions. 494 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: Let's do it. 495 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: Joe Gallow, the mob Boster Boston, wanted to kill Carson. 496 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: Tell me about that. 497 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 4: That's nineteen seventy one. 498 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: Gallow, who's the mafia, figured to get out of prison. 499 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: They're at Jilly's in New York City, which is a 500 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: bar rest run. 501 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 4: Carson would talk about it. 502 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: On the Tonight Show. If he had a drinking problem. 503 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: When he drank, he wanted to fight the room. He 504 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't remember a thing, and he when Joey Gallo was 505 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: in the bathroom, Carson hit on Gallow's girlfriend, and Jillie Rizzo, 506 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: the owner, said get Carson out of here. Gallow's going 507 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: to kill Carson. So what happened is Frank Sinatra had 508 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: to intervene and sit down with Gallon, said I need 509 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: a favor. Leave Carson alone, and Gallos said, you tell 510 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: Carson the only reason he lives in breathe is because 511 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: he knows Frank Sinatra NBC at the same time had 512 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: to go to the top boss, which was Joe Colombo, 513 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: and Joe Colombo insisted for everything to be all good, 514 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: that NBC had to do a report, a favorable NBC 515 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: News report on Joe Colombo. 516 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 4: I watched it with my own eyes. It's unbelievable. 517 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: There was no reason for NBC News to do a 518 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: favorable story on Joe Colombo, and they did that. And 519 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: those were the two things that made Johnny Carson basically 520 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: live again. The drinking was always a challenge, and Brick 521 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: Sinatra saving in his life. It's the only reason why 522 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: Carson did the Reagan inaugural he hosted because Sinatra was 523 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: producing it and he asked Carson to do it. And 524 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: then you know, when Sinatra saves her life, you say yes. 525 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: Because Carson just did not want to do at that 526 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: point anything that would be considered political taking side. But 527 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: because it was Sinatra, he said absolutely well. 528 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 3: On the subject, Carson would make jokes about Ronald Reagan, 529 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 3: and Nancy Reagan was apparently furious at him when would 530 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: call it. 531 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: She called in twice once she was upset that Johnny 532 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: was doing jokes about Ronnie duying his hand she said, 533 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: Ronnie does not die his hair. So the next day 534 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: Johnny Carson on the show said, I hear Ronnie does 535 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: not guy his hair, but he does bleach his face. 536 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: So that was in response to Nancy Reagan and then 537 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: believe it or not, back in the day Saturday Night Live, 538 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: then Johnny Carson and a lot of the shows did 539 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: drug humor, and Nancy Reagan, when she became First Lady, 540 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: wanted that all to stop and she called carsa jow 541 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: and said, no, we're drug jokes, and they really did stop. 542 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 1: So that was a good thing. But yeah, there were 543 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: definitely politicians like Jimmy Carter. Mom got upset at some jokes, 544 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: and Gerald Ford wasn't happy to Chatty Chase and Johnny 545 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: Carson for the stumbling jokes. But overall, the President's got 546 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: to kick out of it. Like it was talents with 547 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: George Herbert Walker Bush, they spent some time together and 548 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: really appreciated one another. 549 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 3: Bush had an uncanny neck, the elder Bush for making 550 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 3: personal relationships. He did that with Dana Carvey, invited Carved 551 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: to the White House, made him do the Bush wouldn't 552 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 3: be prudence not going to happen, and that over, there's 553 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 3: still a human owned. One of the stories I found 554 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 3: most fascinating about the vanity of Johnny Carson and the 555 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 3: eye surgery and hepatitis. 556 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: I'll let you take it from there. 557 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: So Johnny was, as I mentioned, was there. 558 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 4: Was nobody more competitive. 559 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy one, Johnny has all these younger competitors. 560 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: David Frost is fourteen years younger, sick hab it as 561 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: ten years younger. 562 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 4: Handsome guy. Johnny's getting older. 563 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: His girlfriend at the time became one number three, encouraged 564 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: him to stop dyeing his hair, so his hair is 565 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: turning white. His mom, Ruth back in the Raska, said, you. 566 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 4: Look so old with the white hair. 567 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: So Johnny checked himself into an hospital and made up 568 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: the excuse to get hepatitis, but he was really getting 569 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: eye surgery, cosmetic eye surgery. 570 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 4: But he didn't realize when he said claim. 571 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: That he had hepatitis, that everybody who had contact with 572 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: him for a week or two would have to get 573 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: painful shots. The NBC meners administered over two hundred Gamma 574 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: goblin shots to all the employees of The Tonight Show 575 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: and Gas like Tony Randall. Anyone who was around Johnny. 576 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: Johnny was horrible. He never heard him that everyone would be. 577 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 4: Getting shots like this. 578 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: But then he would NBC executives that weren't even around 579 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: Carson that what is the shot to show their proximity 580 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: to Johnny Carson. 581 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 4: I mean, he's the. 582 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: Biggest star in America, so that I want my shot 583 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: as well. So yeah, that was probably the biggest into 584 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: of Carson's competitiveness. The part of this he probably went 585 00:29:59,040 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: with that incident. 586 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I don't have a problem checking into 587 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 3: the hospital and the story being yeah, he's got hepatitis, 588 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 3: but prayers he'll be back soon. But when you find 589 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 3: out the effect that's having on other people in the 590 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 3: sacrifice they're making, I think that's the point where a 591 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: normal person, which we know he wasn't yes, would say, 592 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 3: all right, okay, look I was being vain ha ha, 593 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 3: here's me. But no, he could not do that. He 594 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: could not do that. 595 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: He was horor But it was too late, and he 596 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: knew that even if the newspaper communists within we hear 597 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: Johnny Carson doesn't really have hepatitis. 598 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 4: So he was in a bind. 599 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: But he it was unbelievable that people had these painful shots, 600 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: and yeah, that was probably the height of his competitiveness, 601 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: and he just you know, when people would went up 602 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: against him, it's just that he would do anything to 603 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: stay to stay, to stay number one, and he did. 604 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 4: He was number one. 605 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 3: He was number one, and he was for a very 606 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 3: long time. It was an incredible run in the quality 607 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 3: of the show, in the ground breaking nature of the 608 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 3: comedy they were doing. Especially, but his off stage personality 609 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: has been oft remarked to be reclusive. 610 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: You say, that's not true. 611 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: I come to his inner circle, the people that spent 612 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: the most time with him, and the medium may amant have. 613 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 4: To be cold on aloof but the people I talked 614 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 4: to that. 615 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: Spoke that really spent the time with him and told 616 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: me consistently he was almost the same Johnny on and 617 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: off camera, which I could have believed because of the 618 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: cold and aloof Moniker. They told me that it was 619 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: a small group of people, but if he felt comfortable 620 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: with if he was, he was almost the same Johnny, 621 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: maybe a little less regarded, but yeah, that was one 622 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: of the biggest revelations. But again, it was a small 623 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: group of people, and he demanded loyalty. 624 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 4: He gave loyalty. They all said there was no. 625 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: Better friend than Carson. But when you were on camera 626 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: and you didn't know people, he was very, very shy, 627 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: and for self preservation reasons, he would shut down. I 628 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: mean everyone wanted a piece of him. Mark Devid Chapman, 629 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: who killed John Lennon, had the short list of people 630 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: to kill. Carson was on the list. The routinely had 631 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: to protect Carson's life. 632 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 4: So yeah, a lot of times people. 633 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: Would think that he's being cold in the loop, that 634 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: it was just self preservation. 635 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 3: You talk about a thirty year career on The Tonight Show, 636 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 3: over forty five hundred broadcasts, interviewed more than twenty five 637 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 3: thousand guests. If he made had to pick one, who 638 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 3: do you think he admired and adored and liked the most? 639 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: I think probably maybe Jack Benny was his hero. I 640 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: mean Jack Benny someone Carson studied, and you could see 641 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: the influence with the silences and Elizabeth camera. 642 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 4: When Jack Benny died. 643 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: After the funeral, Carson for three hours was an uncontrollably 644 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: sobbing in his part in his home and it was 645 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: doubt I think with the person that he really loved, 646 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: maybe second would have been Don Rickles. I think maybe 647 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: the third favorite person he had on might have been 648 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: someone who wasn't even famous, that Potato ship lady. He 649 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: would make the people that were not famous in this celebrity. 650 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: This was a woman who was a potato chip inspector 651 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: in Indiana, sixty five year old Myrtle Young to notice 652 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: the potato chips are in different shaped objects. 653 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 4: Carson has her on and. 654 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: She becomes a huge start, travels across the United States, 655 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: goes international, and Carson and is brilliant, had ed McMahons 656 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: stratta for a woman and then he chops down on 657 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: a chip and this woman thinks Carson's getting her collection. 658 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 4: She almost has a. 659 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: Heart deny Carson and his brilliance whereveals No, I have 660 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: my own bowl of potato chips and that is probably, 661 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: I think one of the most popular kip clips Dad 662 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: and maybe ed Ams with Tomahawk, or maybe one and 663 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: two most famous clips the Carson adored her. 664 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 3: Mark Malkoff, you have a fascinating, fascinating fetish. 665 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 2: I find it to be most interesting. 666 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,239 Speaker 3: The host of the Carson podcast and the book of 667 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: which he is the author, Love Johnny Carson, one obsessive 668 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 3: fans journey to find the genius behind the legend. 669 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for another nice thank you, and good night.