Speaker 1: Hi. My name is Maddie. I'm thirteen and I'm from
Speaker 1: Green Day, Wisconsin. What's up, guys. My name is Connor Blakeley.
Speaker 1: I'm eighteen years old and I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I
Speaker 1: thought y'all's Facebook post about whalming teenagers to talk about
Speaker 1: their smartphones. I've heard a smartphone since I was probably
Speaker 1: in kindergarten our first grade. I think social media and
Speaker 1: our smartphones canna be really positive because in the palm
Speaker 1: of our hand, we're able to communicate with one another.
Speaker 1: I have an iPhone five and I use it every day.
Speaker 1: It makes me feel independent, and having it with me
Speaker 1: helps make me feel like I'm not missing anything important.
Speaker 1: I'd say I use it around seven eight hours a day,
Speaker 1: mostly for connecting with my friends through Instagram, Snapchat, text messages,
Speaker 1: and phone calls. Um man, my friends. What we like
Speaker 1: the most about smartphones is the fact that we can
Speaker 1: get anything whenever we want it, how we want it,
Speaker 1: whether it's trying to figure out plans or how we're
Speaker 1: going to order food, to figure out where we're about
Speaker 1: to go out to eat. I think that it's I
Speaker 1: used to have an escape from reality for a moment.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I feel like if we
Speaker 1: had never had phone, we would be a lot more
Speaker 1: connected to the outside world. People are way too consumed
Speaker 1: sometimes with sharing the experience that they're living. I often
Speaker 1: times find myself looking at all my friends during a
Speaker 1: concert taking a snapchat of Kendrick Lamar. Well, I'm the
Speaker 1: only one who's like actually looking at Kendrick, trying to
Speaker 1: authentically experience it so I can have that memory. I
Speaker 1: think technology is cool, but it's also important to take
Speaker 1: a break as well. I do take technology breaks, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm on my smartphone a ton. Hi. I'm Katie and
Speaker 1: I'm addicted to my iPhone. Hi Katie. Yes, I know
Speaker 1: we're impersonating an a meeting, but Brian, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people around the country have the same problem
Speaker 1: I do. I'm on my iPhone constantly checking it incessantly
Speaker 1: and basically wasting endless amount of time on it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had a very sad experience the other day where
Speaker 1: I actually got a spasm between my thumb and my
Speaker 1: pointer finger just because I'm holding my iPhone all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm basically like reshaping the muscular chur in my hand. Actually,
Speaker 1: that's not that funny, because do you know that a
Speaker 1: lot of kids. They're seeing a lot of neck problems
Speaker 1: among adolescents because of the way they're constantly looking at
Speaker 1: their iPhones. Well, clearly we're obsessed with this topic, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of other people are, including a
Speaker 1: psychologist named Gene Twangy. Gene has just written a book
Speaker 1: called Eigen Why today's super connected kids are growing up
Speaker 1: less rebellious, more tolerant, less happy, and completely unprepared for
Speaker 1: adulthood and what that means for the rest of us.
Speaker 1: I don't know how they fit that title on a book, Brian.
Speaker 1: It's more of a chapter than a title, exactly. It's
Speaker 1: It's also the subject of the latest cover story in
Speaker 1: the Atlantic, which is really fascinating, and so we talked
Speaker 1: to Jean particularly about how these trends have affected young
Speaker 1: people who are working less, dating less, sleeping less. They're
Speaker 1: taking four times as many antidepressants as the generation before them,
Speaker 1: so it's had a really profound impact on their brains
Speaker 1: and their personalities. There are some positive effects for this
Speaker 1: uber connected generation, but many negative, as you mentioned, Brian,
Speaker 1: So to hear more, to learn more, here's our conversation
Speaker 1: with Gene Twangy, a professor of psychology at San Diego
Speaker 1: State University. I don't know if you've seen it. This
Speaker 1: isn't my daughter, but it could have been the video
Speaker 1: of a two year old trying to swipe through a
Speaker 1: paper magazine and she can't figure out why it's not working.
Speaker 1: It's just incredible, isn't it. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of parents are concerned about screen time. And it's not
Speaker 1: just screen time in and of itself. It's really the
Speaker 1: impact of how this is affecting our social relationships. And
Speaker 1: when you say I generation little, I what age are
Speaker 1: you talking about? So right now, I gen is those
Speaker 1: ages five to two, So it's a pretty broad swath. Um,
Speaker 1: it's those to That latter date might be revised later
Speaker 1: on and we find out more about this generation and
Speaker 1: their characteristics, but that beginning date of folks who are
Speaker 1: born then in the mid nineties, they spent their entire
Speaker 1: adolescents with smartphones. I mean, one of the I think
Speaker 1: the fascinating parts of this article you wrote that draws
Speaker 1: from your book is that there are a lot of
Speaker 1: positive changes that this generation has experienced. I mean, today's
Speaker 1: kids are physically safer, they have sex lator, they used
Speaker 1: rugs less. So it's really been a mixed bag in
Speaker 1: terms of what the what the impacts are. Right, And
Speaker 1: a lot of those trends that you're mentioning are not
Speaker 1: as connected to smartphones. They're part of a much more
Speaker 1: general trend of um children and teens growing up more
Speaker 1: slowly so taking on the both the privileges and the
Speaker 1: pleasures of adulthood later than they used to. Why is
Speaker 1: that happening? I'm curious, Jean, I'm I'm surprised actually to
Speaker 1: hear you say that, because to me, kids aren't having
Speaker 1: a childhood. They're being pushed academically at school. Uh, they're
Speaker 1: being subjected to all sorts of sexual imagery that uh
Speaker 1: some have even theorized that's bringing on puberty earlier. So
Speaker 1: I'm curious, why what evidence you have that they are
Speaker 1: kind of delaying adulthood. Right, They're exposed to lots of
Speaker 1: things on line. You're absolutely right, the age of puberty
Speaker 1: has gone down. The academic pressure part um. Actually, eighth
Speaker 1: graders do significantly less homework now than they did in
Speaker 1: the same thing for tenth graders and twelfth graders. That's
Speaker 1: actually a really important thing. To keep in mind throughout
Speaker 1: this conversation. It comes up a lot so for them
Speaker 1: growing up slowly. I looked at the data on eighth graders,
Speaker 1: tenth graders, twelfth graders, so UM, middle school, and high
Speaker 1: school students to see how often or whether at all
Speaker 1: they did things that adults do that children don't. Being
Speaker 1: a teen is a time of transition. You start doing
Speaker 1: things that adults do, things like driving, working, dating, going
Speaker 1: out without your parents, having sex, drinking alcohol. All of
Speaker 1: those activities have gone down. Teens are less likely to
Speaker 1: do all of those things than they were even ten
Speaker 1: years ago. But isn't that directly related, Jane, to technology?
Speaker 1: Because it seems to me they're driving less because they
Speaker 1: can call an uber, or they are going out less
Speaker 1: because they can talk on you know, video chat or whatever.
Speaker 1: And they are having sex less because they're actually physically
Speaker 1: with people less. I'm sure they're probably sexting more and
Speaker 1: having actual sex less. So isn't aren't all these trends
Speaker 1: connected to iPhone use or computer use in general. So
Speaker 1: there definitely are some connections to technology. For you know,
Speaker 1: some of the reasons that you mentioned that they can
Speaker 1: keep in touch with friends without going out of the house. UM,
Speaker 1: Uber is probably not a factor because you can't use
Speaker 1: Uber until you're eighteen plus. These trends in terms of
Speaker 1: driving and driver's licenses show up in rural areas where
Speaker 1: Uber is not available. UM. But technology does have an influence.
Speaker 1: It probably accelerated some of these trends. But um these
Speaker 1: trends have been heading in that direction before smartphones were available,
Speaker 1: So there's also clearly other cultural factors going on here.
Speaker 1: So the most likely explanation is we have fewer children,
Speaker 1: we nurture them for longer, We expect that they will
Speaker 1: take longer to finish their education, that they'll go to
Speaker 1: college and maybe even graduate school, that they will have
Speaker 1: their own children later. So it's called a slow life strategy.
Speaker 1: And the theory behind this suggests that an environment that
Speaker 1: is safe and nurturing and favors having fewer children who
Speaker 1: are going to live longer will push for this type
Speaker 1: of slower development. And that's exactly what we're seeing. Is
Speaker 1: in eighteen year olds now look like what fifteen year
Speaker 1: olds look like ten or twenty years ago. And it
Speaker 1: was studying to me how quickly this change has occurred.
Speaker 1: In the article, you pointed out. The twelfth graders go
Speaker 1: out less than eighth graders did in two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: I mean, so many of the changes you're describing really
Speaker 1: boiled down to kids spending time alone in their rooms.
Speaker 1: Why is actual face to face communication so critically important? Gene? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, think about human evolution and for how many
Speaker 1: years our brains evolved, how many thousands, tens of thousands
Speaker 1: of years our brains evolved without screens. In the Caveman era,
Speaker 1: if you were isolated from other people and didn't have
Speaker 1: face to face interaction, you were dead. You didn't have
Speaker 1: anybody to help you find food, You don't have anybody
Speaker 1: to mate with. That was literally bred out of us,
Speaker 1: um to be a hermit. Uh. We really need that
Speaker 1: face to face interaction to be happy. We are hardwired
Speaker 1: that way. And it's interesting, Jeane, you bring that up.
Speaker 1: A teenager named Ala called in from Texas. She's one
Speaker 1: of our listeners with these thoughts on screen time. UM,
Speaker 1: let's have a listen to what she says and then
Speaker 1: we can talk about it. Hi. There, I was born
Speaker 1: in nine. I'm eighteen years old. It's as hot a
Speaker 1: phone for a pretty much my entire life, and I
Speaker 1: honestly believe that social media like Instagram and Facebook and stuff,
Speaker 1: seeing photos of girls and models and stuff pop up
Speaker 1: on your feet really makes girls my age feel very
Speaker 1: unscure about themselves. And I know that a lot of
Speaker 1: girls feel like social media is the best thing ever,
Speaker 1: but I just don't. I guess that's all I have
Speaker 1: to say. I hope this helped Gene. That's an interesting comment.
Speaker 1: And of course I'm sure Ala is not alone. I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of girls for age eighteen year olds
Speaker 1: feel that way. And do you think it is contributing
Speaker 1: to the increase and anxiety, depression in and suicidal thoughts
Speaker 1: or increased risk of suicide. Well, those mental health issues
Speaker 1: that have been on the rise, those trends are stronger
Speaker 1: and more acute for girls. Uh. In some cases, that
Speaker 1: trend only towards more mental health problems only shows up
Speaker 1: for girls and and not for boys. And that may
Speaker 1: be because girls spend more time on their smartphones and
Speaker 1: more time on social media, and that many of the
Speaker 1: interactions that girls have on social media um come with
Speaker 1: those types of feelings that Ela is describing, being judged
Speaker 1: for your appearance, m of seeing others who you know
Speaker 1: have these unattainable physical ideals. There's you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of pressures on teen girls that are UM exacerbated and
Speaker 1: um really just becomes so much of a larger issue online,
Speaker 1: even more than they used to be. UM. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the effect of these
Speaker 1: changes on depression rates among the I gen generally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there's two crucial pieces to that. The first is
Speaker 1: there is an increasing amount of evidence that I gen
Speaker 1: is suffering from more mental health issues, and this shows
Speaker 1: up across many different sources. They are more likely to
Speaker 1: be identified as having major depressive disorder. Those rates have
Speaker 1: gone up by about fifty. They're more likely to say
Speaker 1: they feel anxious, to say they feel overwhelmed, to show
Speaker 1: symptoms of depression, to feel lonely, uh, to self harm,
Speaker 1: say through cutting. Across the board, suicide rates have tripled
Speaker 1: for girls between the ages of twelve and fourteen. They've
Speaker 1: gone up by fifty for older teen girls. UM, there's
Speaker 1: rises for for teen boys as well. UM. So just
Speaker 1: in many different measures, they are suffering from many form
Speaker 1: more and more severe mental health issues. UM than just
Speaker 1: five years ago or ten years ago. There was a
Speaker 1: fairly sudden change starting mostly around. This is really upsetting
Speaker 1: obviously when you hear this gene and and let's unpack it,
Speaker 1: if if we could tell me what is at the
Speaker 1: root of these problems? Is it social isolation? Is it
Speaker 1: feeling that everybody has a better life than you do?
Speaker 1: Is that the constant assault of perfection or seeming perfection
Speaker 1: that kids are being exposed to all the time on
Speaker 1: their digital devices. So there's definitely a role for social
Speaker 1: media and smartphones in this rise. Um The rise started
Speaker 1: to happen right at the year when the majority of
Speaker 1: Americans had smartphones, and that year was um And there's
Speaker 1: for we know this from many many studies of boteens
Speaker 1: and adults that those who spend more hours on social media,
Speaker 1: on electronic devices and smartphones are more likely to report
Speaker 1: mental health issues like anxiety and depression and risk for suicide.
Speaker 1: So it's not just that spending a lot of time
Speaker 1: in front of a screen may lead to anxiety, depression,
Speaker 1: through comparison, through cyber bullying, things like that. It's also
Speaker 1: that by some estimates, teams are spending eight hours a
Speaker 1: day with screens. Combine that with school and other activities,
Speaker 1: they have very little time left over to just hang
Speaker 1: out with their friends and to have in person social
Speaker 1: interaction with their friends and family. Sure enough, those things
Speaker 1: have declined. Teams do spend less time interacting with their
Speaker 1: friends face to face than they used to. And I
Speaker 1: think that's actually one of the major effects here is
Speaker 1: not just the screen, but the the screen leaves less
Speaker 1: time for that in person, face to face social interaction,
Speaker 1: which is so crucial for mental health. You know, Gene,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting that you bring this up because I
Speaker 1: have a daughter who's in college and even visiting her
Speaker 1: in college. When I was in school, of course, I'm
Speaker 1: much older than you and Brian, but I remember spending
Speaker 1: time in the hallway, uh, drinking like cup of soup
Speaker 1: we had made from our hot pot, right boiling water
Speaker 1: in our hot pot, or making popcorn and ordering a
Speaker 1: pizza and sitting in the hall you know, a big
Speaker 1: group of us and just blowing off steam, talking, sharing stories.
Speaker 1: And when I visited my daughter in college, I noticed
Speaker 1: that a lot of kids in their downtime spend time
Speaker 1: on their computer. They're watching movies, they're watching TV shows,
Speaker 1: they're talking to their friends, but they're not actually hanging out. Yes,
Speaker 1: many people who could this have said, well, you know, teens,
Speaker 1: young adults, they're they're just they're just talking to their
Speaker 1: friends when they're on their phones, are on their computer,
Speaker 1: they're communicating with their friends. Teens have always done that,
Speaker 1: they're just using a different method. I think that assumes
Speaker 1: that that's the same that electronic communication and in person
Speaker 1: communication are. They are equal for mental health and well being.
Speaker 1: They are not. They are definitely not. Face to face
Speaker 1: interaction predicts more happiness, less depression, screen time the opposite.
Speaker 1: You know, we should stop and think about what people
Speaker 1: are actually seeing on these social media sites like Instagram,
Speaker 1: and for people my age, it's like everyone's on the
Speaker 1: greatest vacation ever at all times, and so you kind
Speaker 1: of feel bad about that with the best bodies, that
Speaker 1: the most beautiful skin ever. Well and and your and
Speaker 1: to that point, Katie, particularly for younger people, UM, I
Speaker 1: think the images are off and almost pornographic. It's like, um,
Speaker 1: girls in really skimpy swimsuits showing off their bodies, and
Speaker 1: if your body doesn't look like that, you feel really
Speaker 1: bad about yourself. Ibit Uh sister who's much younger, who
Speaker 1: talks about this, and um, I'm sure that contributes to
Speaker 1: this feeling of insecurity and feeling left out. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and that you know, that's one of the questions that
Speaker 1: they're asked on these big surveys is do you feel
Speaker 1: left out? And that really started to go up and around,
Speaker 1: so um teens are now more likely to say that
Speaker 1: they feel left out and lonely than they did just
Speaker 1: five years ago, which is particularly interesting because social media
Speaker 1: they advertise themselves as connecting us and leading to less loneliness,
Speaker 1: but the opposite actually seems seems to be true. It's
Speaker 1: the ultimate irony in many ways, these devices that are
Speaker 1: ostensibly keep us connected actually make us feel lonely and
Speaker 1: isolated more than ever before. And one thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to you Gene about is sort of the
Speaker 1: physiological impact of some of these things like smartphones and
Speaker 1: the addictive nature. I don't think it takes a teenage
Speaker 1: boy or girl to know that we often reach for
Speaker 1: our smartphone. We feel panicky if we can't find our phone.
Speaker 1: Has become almost an appendage, a third arm, if you will,
Speaker 1: talk about the impact that's having on this generation. So
Speaker 1: there's you know, increasing amount of research suggesting that smartphones
Speaker 1: are addictive, that they light up the same areas of
Speaker 1: the brain that they and gender the same brain chemicals
Speaker 1: as other types of addictions. So that's why it's so
Speaker 1: difficult to stop, even if you know that it's bad
Speaker 1: for you, because you might ask that question, well, if
Speaker 1: it's so bad, then why do they do it so much?
Speaker 1: Because it is addictive. They also feel a lot of
Speaker 1: social pressure to to do it. But it's that constant stimulation.
Speaker 1: It's it's one of those things, just like drug addiction.
Speaker 1: It feels good, but only for a short amount of time,
Speaker 1: and then it feels bad, and that's the problem with it.
Speaker 1: You know, there was a man recently in the news
Speaker 1: who wanted to ban cell phones or prevent kids under thirteen,
Speaker 1: I believe, from getting a smartphone in his community, and
Speaker 1: of course he people laughed about that and thought it
Speaker 1: was ridiculous. But do you think that's going to be
Speaker 1: given greater consideration. A friend of mine who studies these
Speaker 1: things said, you know, you wouldn't give alcohol to a
Speaker 1: ten year old, and you're giving them free reign over
Speaker 1: something that is, in fact, highly addictive. What are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on that gene? I do think it is a
Speaker 1: good idea for parents to put off getting a smartphone
Speaker 1: for their kids as long as possible. UM. And one
Speaker 1: one reason I haint that is I looked at that
Speaker 1: in this UM analysis. Sure Enough, the effect of social
Speaker 1: media on depression is largest for eighth graders, a little
Speaker 1: lower for tenth graders, and lower still for twelfth graders.
Speaker 1: Eighth graders are just not much less. Sixth graders, many
Speaker 1: of them do have smartphones, are at a very vulnerable
Speaker 1: time in their development, and often don't have the emotional
Speaker 1: resources to deal with a lot of the stuff that
Speaker 1: happens online. So if you're worried about your kid taking
Speaker 1: the bus, get him a flip phone. They still sell them.
Speaker 1: They can still call you and text you by pressing
Speaker 1: the same you know number three times. Remember that from
Speaker 1: ten years ago. You know, it's interesting. A number of
Speaker 1: my friends in Silicon Valley, some of whom work for
Speaker 1: these social media companies, not only prevent their kids from
Speaker 1: getting smartphones until they're you know, well into high school,
Speaker 1: but they themselves have deleted the face Book app or
Speaker 1: the Instagram app from their phones so that they're not tempted.
Speaker 1: You know, they maybe check it once or twice a
Speaker 1: day on their computers, but they just they don't trust
Speaker 1: themselves to resist the temptation if it's on their phones,
Speaker 1: and so they just they solve it that way. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you think that there are other strategies that parents
Speaker 1: or young people themselves could employ to kind of moderate
Speaker 1: our use of these technologies. Yeah. So for you know,
Speaker 1: for for parents, there there are apps out there that
Speaker 1: you can put on your kid's phone once they eventually
Speaker 1: get one, um, which will restrict the number of time
Speaker 1: hours of day they can use it and also on
Speaker 1: the time of day when they use it. So you
Speaker 1: can have it turned off at nine o'clock and then
Speaker 1: not back on until seven in the morning if you
Speaker 1: want them to be able to relax before they go
Speaker 1: to sleep and get a good night's sleep. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then I think that strategy of only having social media
Speaker 1: on your desktop or your laptop rather than on your
Speaker 1: phone is a really good one. Actually all of that. Myself,
Speaker 1: I'm a very late convert to social media. Um, I
Speaker 1: am on Twitter to talk about some of these issues,
Speaker 1: but I do it only on my desktop. I do
Speaker 1: not have it on my phone. Let's take a short break.
Speaker 1: When we return, we'll have much more with psychologists, Gene
Speaker 1: twiny about teenagers and their digital diets. And I'm also
Speaker 1: going to check to see if I have any new emails.
Speaker 1: That's right after this. One thing that your study and
Speaker 1: your book points out, Gene is this really crosses socioeconomic lines.
Speaker 1: We're not just talking about a bunch of spoiled rich
Speaker 1: kids who are having these problems or who are interacting
Speaker 1: with one another this way, are we? That's exactly right. So, um,
Speaker 1: the smartphone has completely collapsed the socio economic gap in
Speaker 1: internet access. Uh, Teens who are from disadvantaged backgrounds are
Speaker 1: just as likely and actually a little more likely to
Speaker 1: spend a lot of hours online compared to those with
Speaker 1: more money and more resources. So it's I think it's
Speaker 1: really important to get across that message that these effects
Speaker 1: of smartphones are not going to be isolated to just
Speaker 1: you know, rich communities. Um, that they occur across ethnicity,
Speaker 1: across soci economic status, across region. They're very very pervasive
Speaker 1: trends that that really show up among many different groups.
Speaker 1: And you know, Brian, the other thing we didn't talk about,
Speaker 1: which I think Gene alluded to, is this ability to
Speaker 1: be empathetic, to have empathy that's one of the most
Speaker 1: important reasons that you need to have face to face contact.
Speaker 1: Isn't a gene because you to develop emotional intelligence, you
Speaker 1: have to be able to have that verbal interplay and
Speaker 1: really read somebody and understand how your words are making
Speaker 1: that person feel. Yeah, and that's you know, another area.
Speaker 1: There is one study that suggests as screen time is
Speaker 1: having a negative impact on social skills. They looked at
Speaker 1: sixth graders who either you know, live their normal lives
Speaker 1: or went to a camp for five days where they
Speaker 1: had no access to screens, and sure enough, the kids
Speaker 1: who went to the screen free camp at the end
Speaker 1: of that time had improved their social skills more. There's
Speaker 1: a great quote in your piece in which you say,
Speaker 1: in the next decade, we may see more adults who
Speaker 1: know just the right emoji for a situation, but not
Speaker 1: the right facial expression. I think people don't necessarily realize
Speaker 1: the consequences on in person conversations of spending all of
Speaker 1: this time staring at phones. Yes, so not only our
Speaker 1: teens interacting with each other in person less when they
Speaker 1: are with their friends in person, they often have their phones.
Speaker 1: They're often looking at their phones, So that reduction in
Speaker 1: face to face time may be considerably larger um, given
Speaker 1: that that face to face time sometimes it isn't even
Speaker 1: face to FaceTime, Geen. You know you we're focusing on
Speaker 1: on kids or on teenagers, and and that's really the
Speaker 1: subject of your book with I, Gen, But aren't you
Speaker 1: concerned about the impact this is having on all of
Speaker 1: us in terms of what it's doing to our humanity,
Speaker 1: our ability to relate to each other, the way we
Speaker 1: spend our time, and our overall quality of life. Can
Speaker 1: you tell I have an issue here, Gene? Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: and yeah, and I agree completely. I my particular studying book,
Speaker 1: you know, focuses mostly on teens, but I hope to
Speaker 1: look more at adults in the future and see how
Speaker 1: it's affecting all of us. And there are lots of
Speaker 1: other studies suggesting that these same effects of smartphones and
Speaker 1: screen time on loneliness and depression and psychological will being
Speaker 1: show up for adults as well. So this, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is not just a problem with teens. It is an
Speaker 1: issue um with the adults as well. So it's something
Speaker 1: we all need to think about carefully. What are the
Speaker 1: practical ramifications of this though? I mean, as you see
Speaker 1: this I gen or this generation of children and teenagers
Speaker 1: completely focused on technology and the impact technology is having
Speaker 1: on how they spend their days. What do you see
Speaker 1: occurring in the future, I mean, and how worried are
Speaker 1: you about this? I am. I'm the most worried about
Speaker 1: these mental health trends. UM. That's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: I wrote the book. And there's now so much evidence
Speaker 1: UM showing these trends and showing that smartphones, you know,
Speaker 1: might be playing a role in it. I think we
Speaker 1: really need to take this seriously. So I'm really hoping
Speaker 1: that there will be more attention paid to that maybe
Speaker 1: we can try to stop some of these negative trends
Speaker 1: in their tracks with some sensible solutions. You now, we
Speaker 1: don't have to take phones away entirely, but try to
Speaker 1: moderate their use and just pay more attention to this.
Speaker 1: And also, parents, just realize your kids hanging out with
Speaker 1: their friends, it's not wasted time. They are building valuable
Speaker 1: skills for relationships and the workplace when they're doing that.
Speaker 1: I think also one of the topics I'm really interested
Speaker 1: in in terms of UH technology and smartphones is how
Speaker 1: distracted we are by them and the fact that we
Speaker 1: have very little down time, so to speak. And I
Speaker 1: remember giving a commencement address. I told you, Gene, I
Speaker 1: often quoted your Generation Me book and my commencement addresses,
Speaker 1: but I also talked about the importance of not focusing
Speaker 1: on something, of giving your brain a break, I guess,
Speaker 1: and daydreaming. And I read that the part of your
Speaker 1: brain that's responsible for creativity is really ignited when you're
Speaker 1: not doing a specific task. And that's why we come
Speaker 1: up with great ideas when we're in the shower, right
Speaker 1: when we have some time and let our minds wander. Um,
Speaker 1: is that something that you've looked at or thought about? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to research that specifically, but I'm
Speaker 1: a big believer UM in kids occasionally getting good and
Speaker 1: board and just kind of letting their minds wander and
Speaker 1: having time to read a book or maybe read a
Speaker 1: couple of pages of one book and then another or
Speaker 1: however they want to spend the time, and just not
Speaker 1: always having that screen available, not having every minute of
Speaker 1: the day scheduled, that they can have that time away
Speaker 1: from screens to just explore and think and read. Uh,
Speaker 1: is just so important for their development cognitively. Emotionally and
Speaker 1: everything else. It's interesting now. When I was growing up, Brian,
Speaker 1: I would always say to my mom in the summer
Speaker 1: when I didn't you know, maybe she put me in
Speaker 1: summer school for a while, or but I had I
Speaker 1: had some downtime, and I would say, Mom, I'm so bored.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think kids ever say that anymore? Right,
Speaker 1: I would go. She would say, go read. So I'd
Speaker 1: go up down my room. I'd put my pillow on
Speaker 1: our window unit air conditioner, make it really really cold,
Speaker 1: and then I'd lie on my pillow and read. Hey,
Speaker 1: who says I was exciting kid? But I mean, do
Speaker 1: you ever hear kids now say I'm bored because they
Speaker 1: have something to occupy them? Seven? Right? You guys? My
Speaker 1: my kids still say that they do because they're not
Speaker 1: allowed to use smartphones, probably right exactly because they don't
Speaker 1: have smartphones and even you know the little tablets. Um
Speaker 1: they you know, they that's what they want to be doing.
Speaker 1: But I most of the time don't let them. I
Speaker 1: I usually gesture to all the books that we have.
Speaker 1: I'm like, how can you possibly be bored? We have
Speaker 1: all of those books? Go read one Gene. We can't
Speaker 1: have this conversation without talking about my latest obsession, which
Speaker 1: is texting and driving. If you walk around any American
Speaker 1: city these days, you look into the cars and people
Speaker 1: are just staring at their smartphone. And the statistics on
Speaker 1: this are just absolutely terrifying. One out of four car
Speaker 1: accidents are caused by texting while driving. The average text
Speaker 1: will distract a driver for about five seconds. The average
Speaker 1: drivers going fifty That means that the driver is driving
Speaker 1: the length of a football field without looking out, And
Speaker 1: so it's it's actually more dangerous than drunk driving, and
Speaker 1: so what can we do about It's so infuriating by
Speaker 1: the way, I I see people texting and I like
Speaker 1: wag my finger at them and say stop texting. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure they think I'm a crazy person, which I am,
Speaker 1: but it infuriates me when I see someone texting when
Speaker 1: they're driving. Well, and one study showed the cent of
Speaker 1: teens respond to at least one text while driving every
Speaker 1: single time they drive. So this is just epidemic. Yep.
Speaker 1: What can be done about this? Gene anything? Well, has
Speaker 1: anybody invented an app yet that will shut off the
Speaker 1: phone if it's moving faster than twenty. Actually they have.
Speaker 1: I did a profile of this gentleman on Yahoo, and
Speaker 1: a friend of mine told me that Germany has just
Speaker 1: installed ground level you know, walk don't walk signs because
Speaker 1: cell phone users aren't looking up, they're looking down, and
Speaker 1: so they're building them into the pavements so pedestrians don't
Speaker 1: get hit by cars, which I think is a real
Speaker 1: sign of the time, so to speak. Absolutely, yeah, it
Speaker 1: really is. Wow. I feel like so many others that
Speaker 1: I am very addicted to my smartphone that uh, when
Speaker 1: I have a moment of downtime, I check it, I
Speaker 1: look at it, and then I get sucked into this
Speaker 1: vortex of useless information and I'm like, oh, I want
Speaker 1: to see what these actors look like. You won't believe
Speaker 1: it they like or I want to see how fat
Speaker 1: someone is in a bathing suit and it's sick, right,
Speaker 1: And then I get more of that garbage because I
Speaker 1: clicked on it. It's terrible. But um, yes, I need
Speaker 1: I need help. Gene. Um. I don't know if you're
Speaker 1: the person. Maybe I need to discuss this with my therapist.
Speaker 1: But what advice would you give to people? Would you say, like,
Speaker 1: put your phone away? Nothing's more depressing to me when
Speaker 1: I go out to dinner. I'm not this bad, Brian
Speaker 1: and Geen, But when I go out to dinner and
Speaker 1: I see couples like having a romantic dinner and they're
Speaker 1: both on their phones, or a group of friends, and
Speaker 1: every last one of them is on their phones. But listen,
Speaker 1: I'm sure people listening to this, our listeners, who I love,
Speaker 1: by the way, thank you all for listening. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they've seen this too, and I hope they're not the
Speaker 1: people who are on their phones because they're not going
Speaker 1: to be listening to the podcast anymore. But don't you
Speaker 1: think that's insane? I I do. I think it is
Speaker 1: just simple awareness and politeness. Have that phone put away
Speaker 1: during dinner when you're spending time face to face with
Speaker 1: a friend. That we have to set limits on this
Speaker 1: um ensure if you know you're expecting a really important call,
Speaker 1: they just you can figure it out then. But that
Speaker 1: thing of everybody at dinner swiping through the phone, you
Speaker 1: have to set that limit. Um it just has it
Speaker 1: has to stay in your purse or in your briefcase
Speaker 1: or in your pocket if you're going to be truly
Speaker 1: present for that situation. If you're gonna be truly present
Speaker 1: in your own life, that phone has to be out
Speaker 1: of your hand. But Jean and fairness to smartphone users.
Speaker 1: A lot of this is not checking social media. A
Speaker 1: lot of this is workplace culture now where if you're
Speaker 1: the first one to respond to an email, your boss
Speaker 1: thinks more highly of you. If you're a journalist and
Speaker 1: you're not on top of Twitter all the time, you
Speaker 1: feel like you're behind the curve. And so a lot
Speaker 1: of it is not that we want to be on
Speaker 1: our smartphones all the time. It's that we feel like
Speaker 1: we have to be in order to succeed professionally. I
Speaker 1: under I understand that impulse completely so um and I
Speaker 1: think everybody's just gonna try to figure that out as
Speaker 1: much as they can. That you have to resist that temptation.
Speaker 1: Once you've done that work email, then put it away.
Speaker 1: Um And Yeah, everybody has clicked on the You know
Speaker 1: why Hollywood doesn't hire Brandon Frazer A nam there? Oh,
Speaker 1: I really want to know that Umnood's answer to that
Speaker 1: horrible plastic surgery. I gotta see that the worst people
Speaker 1: in Hollywood to work with, they're the worst people in
Speaker 1: America to work with. I'm always afraid I'm going to
Speaker 1: click it and I'm going to see myself. Oh no,
Speaker 1: highly doubt you've only been on a couple of those
Speaker 1: less Thank you, Brian. Having said that, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of employers are starting to think about this, and
Speaker 1: there's some companies where they forbid people, Brian from being
Speaker 1: on email after a certain hour. And so I think
Speaker 1: we're seeing people slowly but surely realize the detrimental effects
Speaker 1: of this constant connectivity, and I think they're starting to
Speaker 1: take steps to to change things, do you, Gene. I
Speaker 1: think there is more awareness. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that actually surprised me the most in the interviews I
Speaker 1: did with Gentines was how many of them are aware
Speaker 1: of the negative effects of smartphones. So the girl who
Speaker 1: I call Athena in the Atlantic piece, it seems fully aware.
Speaker 1: She's thirteens, never known a world without smartphones, but realizes
Speaker 1: that having a conversation with a friend when she's trying
Speaker 1: to look at her phone is infuriating. And I think
Speaker 1: most of us, you know, completely agree with that, and
Speaker 1: that that a thirteen year old would still recognize that
Speaker 1: gave me some hope that if we realize the effect
Speaker 1: that the things are having. That's the first step to
Speaker 1: try to do something about it. And if and if
Speaker 1: even a team who's never known any other world realizes this,
Speaker 1: I think the rest of us can too. When I
Speaker 1: read your article, I started thinking about my own childhood
Speaker 1: and the concerns about too much television viewing, and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: is this really more of the same, And then I
Speaker 1: realized the differences the ubiquity of technology in our lives.
Speaker 1: You didn't have the television on. You couldn't take your
Speaker 1: TV with you when you went to the playground or
Speaker 1: went out on a date, or went to school. And
Speaker 1: so it's the fact that that technology is now so omnipresent.
Speaker 1: It's really changed the face of how we live and
Speaker 1: how we interact with each other. Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the keys. I think that's also why, you
Speaker 1: know a lot of these trends don't start to show
Speaker 1: up until most people have a smartphone. That because the
Speaker 1: Internet has been around for a while, that it's having
Speaker 1: that tech knowlogy always with you. With that said, TV
Speaker 1: does have negative effects on happiness and depression. So sometimes
Speaker 1: when people say, well, everybody said TV was going to
Speaker 1: make people depressed. Well, it does, um, and social media
Speaker 1: and smartphones happen to be a little bit worse. They
Speaker 1: have it a little bit of a stronger correlation. But
Speaker 1: TV isn't great either, all right, duly noted by the
Speaker 1: way we um. Here's another telling teen adult exchange that
Speaker 1: we just wanted to mention mid Roles. Head of Revenue,
Speaker 1: Lex Friedman chatted with his teenage niece le Or over
Speaker 1: Facebook messenger. Gosh, listen to the way we're even leading
Speaker 1: up to this about calling to our show. Here's what
Speaker 1: she said. She said, tell Katie Kirk that I was
Speaker 1: born in nineteen and I would for sure take a
Speaker 1: bullet for my phone. Lex then told her leave her
Speaker 1: a voicemail, and she said, Lex, I just said I
Speaker 1: was born in nineteen. I've never left a voicemail in
Speaker 1: my life. So there you have it, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: how much of this handwringing, though, is sort of by
Speaker 1: old fogies who are saying, kids, what's the matter with
Speaker 1: kids today? And is it being overgo? What's the matter
Speaker 1: with kids today? Remember Paul land from by Bertie. But
Speaker 1: I mean, how much of this is that? Gene? Well,
Speaker 1: you know I went into this without any expectations really
Speaker 1: about what would show up. I just monitor these national
Speaker 1: databases and kind of see what trends end up showing up. UM.
Speaker 1: It was a real process of seeing the trends possibly
Speaker 1: connecting it to the smartphones and these surveys. This is
Speaker 1: what teens say about themselves. This says nothing to do
Speaker 1: with what older people are complaining about. UM. It's all
Speaker 1: about what teens are experiencing, how they're spending their time,
Speaker 1: and how it's making them feel. UM. And I think
Speaker 1: that's that's where you have to start, is you know,
Speaker 1: really listening to teens um. And that's that's been my
Speaker 1: philosophy for a while with this generation's research, is to
Speaker 1: really listen to young people themselves, UM, both in surveys
Speaker 1: in in interviews. UM. And I'm not usually concerned with
Speaker 1: what people think. I'm concerned about, which is, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: I haven't people always said that, Mom. I don't care
Speaker 1: what people say. I want to know what young people
Speaker 1: say now compared to what young people used to say
Speaker 1: ten years ago, or twenty years ago or thirty years ago.
Speaker 1: I want to add one other thing that may sound
Speaker 1: a little bit preachy, but Gene, don't you think parents
Speaker 1: need to take more control. This seems to be I
Speaker 1: think coinciding with this trend to over parent and coddle kids.
Speaker 1: And they want them to be popular, so they want
Speaker 1: them to have access to social media and be able
Speaker 1: to talk to their friends, etcetera, etcetera. But do you
Speaker 1: think it's time for parents to say, Hey, we're gonna
Speaker 1: have a basket where everybody puts their phone after a
Speaker 1: certain time at night, and we're gonna go out and
Speaker 1: we're going to do something as a family, everyone leave
Speaker 1: their smartphone behind. In other words, should parents start acting
Speaker 1: a little more parental? So I'm I'm a parent myself
Speaker 1: of three of three kids. It's a tough job. Setting
Speaker 1: those limits is a struggle every single day, but it
Speaker 1: has to be done. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: parents up to this point just haven't really gotten the
Speaker 1: right information about how smartphones are affecting their kids. Um
Speaker 1: that's number one. And then and then there is the
Speaker 1: reluctance to set limits, which is there as well, which
Speaker 1: you just have to fight. Um. Yes, you want your
Speaker 1: kid to be happy, but you have to think about
Speaker 1: their long term health and happiness, not just their short
Speaker 1: term health and happiness. I mean to to make an
Speaker 1: analogy something that's different from a smartphone. If I really
Speaker 1: wanted my kids to be happy at dinner time, I
Speaker 1: would say, guess what, kids, we're having cookies and ice
Speaker 1: cream for dinner. Would that be something that would make
Speaker 1: them happy? Absolutely? But is that a good idea in
Speaker 1: the long run for them learning how to eat healthy?
Speaker 1: And if we did that every night, their teeth would
Speaker 1: run out of their head and they never get, you know,
Speaker 1: a healthy diet, and they never learned how to how
Speaker 1: to eat well. Um. And the same is true for smartphones.
Speaker 1: Those limits have to be set by the way I
Speaker 1: should mention. People should do what I say and not
Speaker 1: what I do. I don't necessarily have control over this myself,
Speaker 1: since I sound like such a no at all, smarty pants, Well,
Speaker 1: what are three or four tips for parents? And closing
Speaker 1: gene too? Kind of get this really growing problem under control.
Speaker 1: So put off getting your kids a smartphone for as
Speaker 1: long as possible. Get a flip phone if you feel
Speaker 1: they really need a phone set up. When they do
Speaker 1: get a smartphone, one of those apps that will make
Speaker 1: sure they're not on it in the middle of the
Speaker 1: night and will restrict the number of hours a day
Speaker 1: they use it. Um, if you're on social media, consider
Speaker 1: not doing it on your phone, but doing it only
Speaker 1: on a on a desktop, and in general, realize that
Speaker 1: spending time with other people in person is one of
Speaker 1: the greatest joys of human existence. And it's not a
Speaker 1: waste of time for teens, it's not a waste of
Speaker 1: time for adults. Uh, And that it is better for
Speaker 1: mental health than staring at that screen. Well, Gen Twangy,
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed talking to I know this is something
Speaker 1: that Brian and I are both enormously interested in, and
Speaker 1: I think this should be a warning to parents and
Speaker 1: two kids alike to really enjoy all the wonders of
Speaker 1: technology and what you can do as a result of it.
Speaker 1: But like everything, it should be a moderation exactly. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thanks Geen, Thank you, thank you Brian text me just
Speaker 1: kidding as always, A big thank you to our production
Speaker 1: team are Crack Pod Squad, our producer, Gianna Palmer, our
Speaker 1: audio engineers. Was that a little cheesy? I like it?
Speaker 1: Who's Peggy Lipton? I don't know. I think you are,
Speaker 1: Gianna your link our audio engineers, Jared O'Connell and New
Speaker 1: York and Ryan Connor here in l A thanks also
Speaker 1: to our production assistant Nora Richie, to Emily Beana of
Speaker 1: Katie Currect Media for her production assistance, and lastly, thanks
Speaker 1: to Alison Bresnik for her fine work on social media.
Speaker 1: Actually it's not lastly, because we also want to thank
Speaker 1: Mark Phillips for our very rock and theme music. By
Speaker 1: the way, Brian and I are executive producers of this podcast.
Speaker 1: And hey, have you emailed us yet? It comments at
Speaker 1: correct podcast dot com. Keep it clean, people, How about
Speaker 1: leaving us a voicemail something that that young woman has
Speaker 1: never done. If you're of a certain age, you all
Speaker 1: know what a voicemail is. Anyway, you can do so
Speaker 1: at nine to nine two two four four six three seven.
Speaker 1: Again that's nine to nine two two four four six
Speaker 1: three seven. Please, we love to hear from you and
Speaker 1: tell us nice things about our podcasts are not nice
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Speaker 1: on Snapchat and you can find me on Facebook as well.
Speaker 1: Brian meanwhile, is a Twitter fiend. He is always on
Speaker 1: Twitter and his handle is at Goldsmith b And maybe
Speaker 1: I'll be on Twitter a little less as a result
Speaker 1: of this episode, I hope. So anyway, you've made it
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Speaker 1: until next time, thanks for listening. Bye yeah