WEBVTT - Jean Twenge: The Trouble with Smartphones 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:05.240 Hi. My name is Maddie. I'm thirteen and I'm from 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.960 Green Day, Wisconsin. What's up, guys. My name is Connor Blakeley. 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.840 I'm eighteen years old and I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:16.960 thought y'all's Facebook post about whalming teenagers to talk about 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.720 their smartphones. I've heard a smartphone since I was probably 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.560 in kindergarten our first grade. I think social media and 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.560 our smartphones canna be really positive because in the palm 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:28.720 of our hand, we're able to communicate with one another. 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.480 I have an iPhone five and I use it every day. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.320 It makes me feel independent, and having it with me 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.879 helps make me feel like I'm not missing anything important. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.159 I'd say I use it around seven eight hours a day, 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:44.919 mostly for connecting with my friends through Instagram, Snapchat, text messages, 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.720 and phone calls. Um man, my friends. What we like 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.640 the most about smartphones is the fact that we can 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:53.559 get anything whenever we want it, how we want it, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.360 whether it's trying to figure out plans or how we're 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.120 going to order food, to figure out where we're about 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:00.040 to go out to eat. I think that it's I 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.560 used to have an escape from reality for a moment. 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.240 But at the same time, I feel like if we 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.440 had never had phone, we would be a lot more 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.560 connected to the outside world. People are way too consumed 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.760 sometimes with sharing the experience that they're living. I often 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.560 times find myself looking at all my friends during a 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.480 concert taking a snapchat of Kendrick Lamar. Well, I'm the 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.840 only one who's like actually looking at Kendrick, trying to 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.200 authentically experience it so I can have that memory. I 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.080 think technology is cool, but it's also important to take 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:35.800 a break as well. I do take technology breaks, but yeah, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:44.640 I'm on my smartphone a ton. Hi. I'm Katie and 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.720 I'm addicted to my iPhone. Hi Katie. Yes, I know 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.360 we're impersonating an a meeting, but Brian, I think a 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.880 lot of people around the country have the same problem 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.960 I do. I'm on my iPhone constantly checking it incessantly 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:06.400 and basically wasting endless amount of time on it. Yeah. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.440 I had a very sad experience the other day where 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:12.799 I actually got a spasm between my thumb and my 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.760 pointer finger just because I'm holding my iPhone all the time. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:21.560 I'm basically like reshaping the muscular chur in my hand. Actually, 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.480 that's not that funny, because do you know that a 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.160 lot of kids. They're seeing a lot of neck problems 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.520 among adolescents because of the way they're constantly looking at 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.640 their iPhones. Well, clearly we're obsessed with this topic, and 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.600 I think a lot of other people are, including a 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.280 psychologist named Gene Twangy. Gene has just written a book 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:45.320 called Eigen Why today's super connected kids are growing up 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.880 less rebellious, more tolerant, less happy, and completely unprepared for 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.720 adulthood and what that means for the rest of us. 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.840 I don't know how they fit that title on a book, Brian. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.600 It's more of a chapter than a title, exactly. It's 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.360 It's also the subject of the latest cover story in 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.760 the Atlantic, which is really fascinating, and so we talked 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.959 to Jean particularly about how these trends have affected young 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.639 people who are working less, dating less, sleeping less. They're 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.760 taking four times as many antidepressants as the generation before them, 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.639 so it's had a really profound impact on their brains 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.799 and their personalities. There are some positive effects for this 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:31.799 uber connected generation, but many negative, as you mentioned, Brian, 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.800 So to hear more, to learn more, here's our conversation 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:40.520 with Gene Twangy, a professor of psychology at San Diego 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:46.480 State University. I don't know if you've seen it. This 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.560 isn't my daughter, but it could have been the video 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.720 of a two year old trying to swipe through a 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.360 paper magazine and she can't figure out why it's not working. 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:58.160 It's just incredible, isn't it. And I think a lot 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:02.440 of parents are concerned about screen time. And it's not 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.320 just screen time in and of itself. It's really the 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.360 impact of how this is affecting our social relationships. And 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.640 when you say I generation little, I what age are 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:21.000 you talking about? So right now, I gen is those 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.840 ages five to two, So it's a pretty broad swath. Um, 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:32.000 it's those to That latter date might be revised later 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.120 on and we find out more about this generation and 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:39.240 their characteristics, but that beginning date of folks who are 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.640 born then in the mid nineties, they spent their entire 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.840 adolescents with smartphones. I mean, one of the I think 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.920 the fascinating parts of this article you wrote that draws 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.839 from your book is that there are a lot of 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:55.479 positive changes that this generation has experienced. I mean, today's 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.920 kids are physically safer, they have sex lator, they used 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.960 rugs less. So it's really been a mixed bag in 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.640 terms of what the what the impacts are. Right, And 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.840 a lot of those trends that you're mentioning are not 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:15.279 as connected to smartphones. They're part of a much more 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:21.520 general trend of um children and teens growing up more 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:26.960 slowly so taking on the both the privileges and the 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:31.680 pleasures of adulthood later than they used to. Why is 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:35.320 that happening? I'm curious, Jean, I'm I'm surprised actually to 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.400 hear you say that, because to me, kids aren't having 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.920 a childhood. They're being pushed academically at school. Uh, they're 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:48.080 being subjected to all sorts of sexual imagery that uh 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.240 some have even theorized that's bringing on puberty earlier. So 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.480 I'm curious, why what evidence you have that they are 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.440 kind of delaying adulthood. Right, They're exposed to lots of 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.679 things on line. You're absolutely right, the age of puberty 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:07.719 has gone down. The academic pressure part um. Actually, eighth 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.839 graders do significantly less homework now than they did in 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:15.040 the same thing for tenth graders and twelfth graders. That's 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.159 actually a really important thing. To keep in mind throughout 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.719 this conversation. It comes up a lot so for them 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.359 growing up slowly. I looked at the data on eighth graders, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.680 tenth graders, twelfth graders, so UM, middle school, and high 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.880 school students to see how often or whether at all 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:36.360 they did things that adults do that children don't. Being 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.760 a teen is a time of transition. You start doing 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:45.280 things that adults do, things like driving, working, dating, going 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:50.000 out without your parents, having sex, drinking alcohol. All of 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:54.040 those activities have gone down. Teens are less likely to 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.160 do all of those things than they were even ten 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.800 years ago. But isn't that directly related, Jane, to technology? 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.520 Because it seems to me they're driving less because they 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.159 can call an uber, or they are going out less 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.080 because they can talk on you know, video chat or whatever. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:17.680 And they are having sex less because they're actually physically 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.600 with people less. I'm sure they're probably sexting more and 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:26.040 having actual sex less. So isn't aren't all these trends 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.400 connected to iPhone use or computer use in general. So 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.440 there definitely are some connections to technology. For you know, 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.480 some of the reasons that you mentioned that they can 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.480 keep in touch with friends without going out of the house. UM, 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.520 Uber is probably not a factor because you can't use 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.160 Uber until you're eighteen plus. These trends in terms of 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.400 driving and driver's licenses show up in rural areas where 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:54.160 Uber is not available. UM. But technology does have an influence. 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:58.040 It probably accelerated some of these trends. But um these 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.920 trends have been heading in that direction before smartphones were available, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.080 So there's also clearly other cultural factors going on here. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.080 So the most likely explanation is we have fewer children, 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:13.600 we nurture them for longer, We expect that they will 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.600 take longer to finish their education, that they'll go to 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:20.720 college and maybe even graduate school, that they will have 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:25.880 their own children later. So it's called a slow life strategy. 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.400 And the theory behind this suggests that an environment that 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.800 is safe and nurturing and favors having fewer children who 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:38.120 are going to live longer will push for this type 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:43.520 of slower development. And that's exactly what we're seeing. Is 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.880 in eighteen year olds now look like what fifteen year 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.600 olds look like ten or twenty years ago. And it 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.600 was studying to me how quickly this change has occurred. 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:59.000 In the article, you pointed out. The twelfth graders go 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.840 out less than eighth graders did in two thousand nine. 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.800 I mean, so many of the changes you're describing really 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:11.400 boiled down to kids spending time alone in their rooms. 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:17.760 Why is actual face to face communication so critically important? Gene? Well, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.360 you know, think about human evolution and for how many 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:25.440 years our brains evolved, how many thousands, tens of thousands 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:30.640 of years our brains evolved without screens. In the Caveman era, 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.960 if you were isolated from other people and didn't have 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.680 face to face interaction, you were dead. You didn't have 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.840 anybody to help you find food, You don't have anybody 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.400 to mate with. That was literally bred out of us, 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.960 um to be a hermit. Uh. We really need that 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.359 face to face interaction to be happy. We are hardwired 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.760 that way. And it's interesting, Jeane, you bring that up. 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.200 A teenager named Ala called in from Texas. She's one 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.800 of our listeners with these thoughts on screen time. UM, 0:09:57.880 --> 0:09:59.520 let's have a listen to what she says and then 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.200 we can talk about it. Hi. There, I was born 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.199 in nine. I'm eighteen years old. It's as hot a 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.280 phone for a pretty much my entire life, and I 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.680 honestly believe that social media like Instagram and Facebook and stuff, 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.800 seeing photos of girls and models and stuff pop up 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.400 on your feet really makes girls my age feel very 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.280 unscure about themselves. And I know that a lot of 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.400 girls feel like social media is the best thing ever, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.800 but I just don't. I guess that's all I have 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:32.360 to say. I hope this helped Gene. That's an interesting comment. 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.920 And of course I'm sure Ala is not alone. I'm 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.199 sure a lot of girls for age eighteen year olds 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.439 feel that way. And do you think it is contributing 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.559 to the increase and anxiety, depression in and suicidal thoughts 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:52.440 or increased risk of suicide. Well, those mental health issues 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:57.880 that have been on the rise, those trends are stronger 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.760 and more acute for girls. Uh. In some cases, that 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.400 trend only towards more mental health problems only shows up 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.800 for girls and and not for boys. And that may 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.679 be because girls spend more time on their smartphones and 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.960 more time on social media, and that many of the 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:21.200 interactions that girls have on social media um come with 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.480 those types of feelings that Ela is describing, being judged 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:31.480 for your appearance, m of seeing others who you know 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:37.080 have these unattainable physical ideals. There's you know, a lot 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:43.400 of pressures on teen girls that are UM exacerbated and 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:49.480 um really just becomes so much of a larger issue online, 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.480 even more than they used to be. UM. Can you 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.720 tell us a little bit about the effect of these 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:01.200 changes on depression rates among the I gen generally. Yeah, 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.080 So there's two crucial pieces to that. The first is 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.520 there is an increasing amount of evidence that I gen 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:15.040 is suffering from more mental health issues, and this shows 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:20.000 up across many different sources. They are more likely to 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.960 be identified as having major depressive disorder. Those rates have 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.000 gone up by about fifty. They're more likely to say 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.840 they feel anxious, to say they feel overwhelmed, to show 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.920 symptoms of depression, to feel lonely, uh, to self harm, 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:42.239 say through cutting. Across the board, suicide rates have tripled 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.400 for girls between the ages of twelve and fourteen. They've 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.560 gone up by fifty for older teen girls. UM, there's 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.800 rises for for teen boys as well. UM. So just 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:58.240 in many different measures, they are suffering from many form 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:02.560 more and more severe mental health issues. UM than just 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.800 five years ago or ten years ago. There was a 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:10.839 fairly sudden change starting mostly around. This is really upsetting 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.480 obviously when you hear this gene and and let's unpack it, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.440 if if we could tell me what is at the 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.720 root of these problems? Is it social isolation? Is it 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.920 feeling that everybody has a better life than you do? 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:31.160 Is that the constant assault of perfection or seeming perfection 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.800 that kids are being exposed to all the time on 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:40.840 their digital devices. So there's definitely a role for social 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.800 media and smartphones in this rise. Um The rise started 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.959 to happen right at the year when the majority of 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:55.160 Americans had smartphones, and that year was um And there's 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.680 for we know this from many many studies of boteens 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:02.720 and adults that those who spend more hours on social media, 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:08.959 on electronic devices and smartphones are more likely to report 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.520 mental health issues like anxiety and depression and risk for suicide. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.400 So it's not just that spending a lot of time 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:21.120 in front of a screen may lead to anxiety, depression, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:25.480 through comparison, through cyber bullying, things like that. It's also 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.240 that by some estimates, teams are spending eight hours a 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:35.800 day with screens. Combine that with school and other activities, 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.200 they have very little time left over to just hang 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.720 out with their friends and to have in person social 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.320 interaction with their friends and family. Sure enough, those things 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.240 have declined. Teams do spend less time interacting with their 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.080 friends face to face than they used to. And I 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.680 think that's actually one of the major effects here is 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.720 not just the screen, but the the screen leaves less 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.520 time for that in person, face to face social interaction, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.800 which is so crucial for mental health. You know, Gene, 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.440 that's so interesting that you bring this up because I 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.440 have a daughter who's in college and even visiting her 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:19.000 in college. When I was in school, of course, I'm 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.920 much older than you and Brian, but I remember spending 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.680 time in the hallway, uh, drinking like cup of soup 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.200 we had made from our hot pot, right boiling water 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.880 in our hot pot, or making popcorn and ordering a 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.960 pizza and sitting in the hall you know, a big 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.960 group of us and just blowing off steam, talking, sharing stories. 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.080 And when I visited my daughter in college, I noticed 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.240 that a lot of kids in their downtime spend time 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.200 on their computer. They're watching movies, they're watching TV shows, 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.720 they're talking to their friends, but they're not actually hanging out. Yes, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.640 many people who could this have said, well, you know, teens, 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.080 young adults, they're they're just they're just talking to their 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.280 friends when they're on their phones, are on their computer, 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.000 they're communicating with their friends. Teens have always done that, 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.520 they're just using a different method. I think that assumes 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:20.560 that that's the same that electronic communication and in person 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:25.560 communication are. They are equal for mental health and well being. 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.320 They are not. They are definitely not. Face to face 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:34.760 interaction predicts more happiness, less depression, screen time the opposite. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.720 You know, we should stop and think about what people 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.920 are actually seeing on these social media sites like Instagram, 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.160 and for people my age, it's like everyone's on the 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.680 greatest vacation ever at all times, and so you kind 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.840 of feel bad about that with the best bodies, that 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.200 the most beautiful skin ever. Well and and your and 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:58.240 to that point, Katie, particularly for younger people, UM, I 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:03.600 think the images are off and almost pornographic. It's like, um, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.159 girls in really skimpy swimsuits showing off their bodies, and 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.280 if your body doesn't look like that, you feel really 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.520 bad about yourself. Ibit Uh sister who's much younger, who 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:17.600 talks about this, and um, I'm sure that contributes to 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.600 this feeling of insecurity and feeling left out. Yeah, absolutely, 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.640 and that you know, that's one of the questions that 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.160 they're asked on these big surveys is do you feel 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:33.040 left out? And that really started to go up and around, 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.520 so um teens are now more likely to say that 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.399 they feel left out and lonely than they did just 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.640 five years ago, which is particularly interesting because social media 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:52.280 they advertise themselves as connecting us and leading to less loneliness, 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.240 but the opposite actually seems seems to be true. It's 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.919 the ultimate irony in many ways, these devices that are 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.439 ostensibly keep us connected actually make us feel lonely and 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.320 isolated more than ever before. And one thing I wanted 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.719 to talk to you Gene about is sort of the 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.320 physiological impact of some of these things like smartphones and 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:17.160 the addictive nature. I don't think it takes a teenage 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:22.080 boy or girl to know that we often reach for 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.399 our smartphone. We feel panicky if we can't find our phone. 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:29.040 Has become almost an appendage, a third arm, if you will, 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:34.320 talk about the impact that's having on this generation. So 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:40.080 there's you know, increasing amount of research suggesting that smartphones 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.399 are addictive, that they light up the same areas of 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.560 the brain that they and gender the same brain chemicals 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:52.679 as other types of addictions. So that's why it's so 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.840 difficult to stop, even if you know that it's bad 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.520 for you, because you might ask that question, well, if 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.200 it's so bad, then why do they do it so much? 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.119 Because it is addictive. They also feel a lot of 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:09.600 social pressure to to do it. But it's that constant stimulation. 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.920 It's it's one of those things, just like drug addiction. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.120 It feels good, but only for a short amount of time, 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.280 and then it feels bad, and that's the problem with it. 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.840 You know, there was a man recently in the news 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.280 who wanted to ban cell phones or prevent kids under thirteen, 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.960 I believe, from getting a smartphone in his community, and 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.400 of course he people laughed about that and thought it 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.439 was ridiculous. But do you think that's going to be 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.200 given greater consideration. A friend of mine who studies these 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.720 things said, you know, you wouldn't give alcohol to a 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.280 ten year old, and you're giving them free reign over 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.880 something that is, in fact, highly addictive. What are your 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.520 thoughts on that gene? I do think it is a 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.320 good idea for parents to put off getting a smartphone 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.600 for their kids as long as possible. UM. And one 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.639 one reason I haint that is I looked at that 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:10.399 in this UM analysis. Sure Enough, the effect of social 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.600 media on depression is largest for eighth graders, a little 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.480 lower for tenth graders, and lower still for twelfth graders. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.440 Eighth graders are just not much less. Sixth graders, many 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.880 of them do have smartphones, are at a very vulnerable 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.520 time in their development, and often don't have the emotional 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.359 resources to deal with a lot of the stuff that 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.879 happens online. So if you're worried about your kid taking 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.480 the bus, get him a flip phone. They still sell them. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.959 They can still call you and text you by pressing 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.760 the same you know number three times. Remember that from 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.000 ten years ago. You know, it's interesting. A number of 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.280 my friends in Silicon Valley, some of whom work for 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.520 these social media companies, not only prevent their kids from 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.639 getting smartphones until they're you know, well into high school, 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.639 but they themselves have deleted the face Book app or 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.760 the Instagram app from their phones so that they're not tempted. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.560 You know, they maybe check it once or twice a 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.520 day on their computers, but they just they don't trust 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.919 themselves to resist the temptation if it's on their phones, 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.320 and so they just they solve it that way. I mean, 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.200 do you think that there are other strategies that parents 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.480 or young people themselves could employ to kind of moderate 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.439 our use of these technologies. Yeah. So for you know, 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.560 for for parents, there there are apps out there that 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.200 you can put on your kid's phone once they eventually 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.800 get one, um, which will restrict the number of time 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.399 hours of day they can use it and also on 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.199 the time of day when they use it. So you 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:41.160 can have it turned off at nine o'clock and then 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.040 not back on until seven in the morning if you 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:45.960 want them to be able to relax before they go 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.239 to sleep and get a good night's sleep. Uh. And 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:52.600 then I think that strategy of only having social media 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:57.320 on your desktop or your laptop rather than on your 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.800 phone is a really good one. Actually all of that. Myself, 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.639 I'm a very late convert to social media. Um, I 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.280 am on Twitter to talk about some of these issues, 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.439 but I do it only on my desktop. I do 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:15.359 not have it on my phone. Let's take a short break. 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.159 When we return, we'll have much more with psychologists, Gene 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:24.160 twiny about teenagers and their digital diets. And I'm also 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.240 going to check to see if I have any new emails. 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:36.919 That's right after this. One thing that your study and 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:42.080 your book points out, Gene is this really crosses socioeconomic lines. 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.680 We're not just talking about a bunch of spoiled rich 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.400 kids who are having these problems or who are interacting 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:53.760 with one another this way, are we? That's exactly right. So, um, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:58.320 the smartphone has completely collapsed the socio economic gap in 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:02.640 internet access. Uh, Teens who are from disadvantaged backgrounds are 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:05.359 just as likely and actually a little more likely to 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:09.480 spend a lot of hours online compared to those with 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.240 more money and more resources. So it's I think it's 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.640 really important to get across that message that these effects 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:18.840 of smartphones are not going to be isolated to just 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:23.400 you know, rich communities. Um, that they occur across ethnicity, 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:28.280 across soci economic status, across region. They're very very pervasive 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:31.919 trends that that really show up among many different groups. 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.159 And you know, Brian, the other thing we didn't talk about, 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:37.960 which I think Gene alluded to, is this ability to 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.959 be empathetic, to have empathy that's one of the most 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:45.159 important reasons that you need to have face to face contact. 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:49.199 Isn't a gene because you to develop emotional intelligence, you 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:54.080 have to be able to have that verbal interplay and 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.560 really read somebody and understand how your words are making 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.840 that person feel. Yeah, and that's you know, another area. 0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:06.320 There is one study that suggests as screen time is 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.000 having a negative impact on social skills. They looked at 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.560 sixth graders who either you know, live their normal lives 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:14.880 or went to a camp for five days where they 0:24:14.920 --> 0:24:17.640 had no access to screens, and sure enough, the kids 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:20.119 who went to the screen free camp at the end 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:23.720 of that time had improved their social skills more. There's 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.720 a great quote in your piece in which you say, 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.000 in the next decade, we may see more adults who 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:32.120 know just the right emoji for a situation, but not 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:36.080 the right facial expression. I think people don't necessarily realize 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:41.639 the consequences on in person conversations of spending all of 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.560 this time staring at phones. Yes, so not only our 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.680 teens interacting with each other in person less when they 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:53.119 are with their friends in person, they often have their phones. 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.800 They're often looking at their phones, So that reduction in 0:24:56.920 --> 0:25:01.560 face to face time may be considerably larger um, given 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:04.280 that that face to face time sometimes it isn't even 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.760 face to FaceTime, Geen. You know you we're focusing on 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.439 on kids or on teenagers, and and that's really the 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.399 subject of your book with I, Gen, But aren't you 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:17.040 concerned about the impact this is having on all of 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:19.960 us in terms of what it's doing to our humanity, 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:22.879 our ability to relate to each other, the way we 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:26.480