1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 2: Being sent to prison for life or being sent to 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: a psych if a hospital has seen us at the 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: end of it. But people's lives carry on, and people 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: live restricted lives, but lives just like the rest of us. 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,319 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 14 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choice is that 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: writers make good and bad. It's a deep dive into 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. In February of nineteen ninety two, 17 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: a twenty two year old walked into a police station 18 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: in Florida and confessed that he had shot and killed 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: his parents. He claimed that he was possessed by the 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: devil at the time. He was eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia 21 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: and ruled not criminally responsible for the murders on the 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: grounds of insanity. But after the trial, where do the 23 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: criminally insane end up? Nonfiction author and psychoanalyst Makita Brotman 24 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: unravels the story at the center of her book, Couple 25 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 1: Found Slain. Well, let's talk about the book. First, start 26 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: with the title and how did you find this story? 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: Well, I was working in a forensic psychiatric hospital in 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: Maryland and I was volunteering there running a reading group, 29 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: and I hadn't thought about writing about any of the patients, 30 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: but I became I mean, the patients were really articulate 31 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: and really interesting, and eventually I got to know some 32 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: of the stories. And there was a patient called Brian Bechtel, 33 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: and I found out that he'd been in the hospital 34 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: for at that time, I think it was twenty seven years, 35 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: and the average day is like six years, so it 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 2: was much much longer than any of the other patients, 37 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: which really surprised me because he was really articulate and 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: interesting and seemed completely stable. So I talked to him 39 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 2: gradually got to know him better and better, and finally 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: he told me his story and I found it so 41 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: fascinating that I asked him if he'd be interested in 42 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: me writing about it, and he agreed. So that's how 43 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: things started. 44 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: Will you tell me specifically what your job was in 45 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: this time period where you knew Brian, What exactly on 46 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: a day to day basis did you do in this facility. 47 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: I think I was on sabbatical from my academic job, 48 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: so I wanted to do some voluntary work, and I 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: started to work in a prison where I was running 50 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: a reading group there too with a group of prisoners. 51 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: And the psychiatric hospital was in very close to the 52 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: prison too, and so I talked to the you know, 53 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: the CEO and the head psychiatrist there, and so I 54 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: started this group once a week. Even though I'm a psychoanalyst, 55 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: this was a completely non clinical group. It was voluntary 56 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: and I wasn't taking any notes or anything, although the 57 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: patients often didn't seem to believe me, and it was 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: for mostly high functioning patients and they could elect to 59 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: get in the group, join the group, and so there 60 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: were usually about I actually had two groups in the 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: end of about ten patients in each group, and we 62 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: would usually read short stories and I would give them 63 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: the stories to read in between passes, and then we 64 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: would meet and discuss the stories in the meeting, and 65 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: it would usually lead to other kinds of general conversations. 66 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: But I was really interested in getting the perspective on 67 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: the stories and to think about, you know, how fiction 68 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: relates to real life and how you can kind of 69 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: empathize with fictional characters, and then just like, you know, 70 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: some kind of enjoyment because there really wasn't very much 71 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: to do there. 72 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: Before we learn about Brian and his time in the 73 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: facility that we're talking about. Let's talk about what actually 74 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: happened and what he was convicted of. So where does 75 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: that story make sense? Is it the environment that Brian 76 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: grew up in, in what his parents were like and 77 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: who they were. 78 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 2: So couple fan Slain is about a man named Brian 79 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: Bechteld who, in nineteen ninety two in Helensdale, Maryland, at 80 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: the age of twenty two, murdered his parents and he 81 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: was suffering at that time from paranoid schizophrenia, which is 82 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: partly inherited. He had mental illness in the family and 83 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: he believes both of his parents were mentally ill, particularly 84 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: his father, who was not diagnosed, but as he grew older. 85 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 2: As he hit his teenage years, he became incredibly paranoid 86 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: and delusional and couldn't really function, found himself getting thrown 87 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 2: out of college, losing his friends, spending most of the 88 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: time with his dogs. He was institute a number of 89 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: times as he was growing up, or drinking and smoking pot, 90 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 2: and I mean without being aware of it. He was 91 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 2: just becoming more and more detached from the everyday world. 92 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: And that's the age at which most people who suffered 93 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: from schizophrenia are going to have a psychotic break if 94 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: they do. And Brian had not been on any medication 95 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: or anything. He didn't perceive himself as being mentally ill. 96 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: He believed that the house was under attacked from outsiders. 97 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 2: He believed he saw things in the yard. He believed 98 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: that there was a devil in the attic recording all 99 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 2: kinds of things that he said. So he was really 100 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: suffering from pretty typical paranoid delusions and this is what 101 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: led him one day to commit this horrible act. His 102 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: parents had been abusive, not sexually abusive, but physically and 103 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: emotionally throughout his life, violent and oppressive, and then after 104 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: the murders he went on the run. For a couple 105 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: of weeks and then he turned himself in. 106 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: Was the abuse independently verified? His parents were Dorothy and 107 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: George Bechteld, So were there reports or did any of 108 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,679 Speaker 1: this come out in the trial? This history of abuse 109 00:05:58,800 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: with the parents. 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: There were lots of documents of Brian being put into 111 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: sort of teenage psychiatric hospitals and then being released by 112 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: his mother against the advice of the doctors. For most 113 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: of the information about Brian's childhood. I talked to his 114 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 2: sister Kathy, and she verified everything that Brian said, and 115 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: his other siblings don't speak to him. Kathy's the anyone 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: that does so as much as I could verify it, 117 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: she supported everything that Brian said. 118 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so he is obviously suffering from schizophrenia. Does anybody 119 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: recognize this? I know he's in and out of facilities. 120 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: Is that when he is given the diagnosis is when 121 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: he's in his teenagers. 122 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: No, he's not diagnosed until after the crime. And of course, 123 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: you know, it's an absolutely horrifying crime and no amount 124 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: of abuse can justify what he did. And he certainly, 125 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: you know, had ordinary difficulties with his parents, probably beyond 126 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: what most teenagers have but without his delusions and schizophrenia. 127 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 2: You know, he saw his parents parents as not who 128 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: they were, as zombies, as enemies. So after the crime, 129 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: he was seen by a psychiatrist and that's when he 130 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: got the diagnosis. 131 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: What exactly is the crime? What happens during these murders? 132 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: And then how is he caught? Does he just turn 133 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: himself in? What happens? 134 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: Brian? He was so delusional that he had and paranoid. 135 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: He had been keeping a gun, like, constantly walking around 136 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: the house with a gun, which kind of makes me 137 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: wonder what his parents thought was going on. Half the 138 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: year his parents were in Florida without him, so I'm 139 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: not sure if they quite fully understood the severity of 140 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: his mental illness, but they thought that he was paranoid 141 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: about outside, as attacking the house, and he was even 142 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: keeping the gun, like he even took into the shower 143 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: with him, And so it seems to me that the 144 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: kind of the situation was ready for something terrible to happen. 145 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: He hadn't been able to sleep for weeks. He managed 146 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: and one morning he was just managing to fall asleep, 147 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: he heard his father's shouting and that was it. He 148 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: took his gun and went downstairs and shot them, And 149 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: he says afterwards he didn't really understand that it had happened. 150 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: He felt like it was a dream or something he'd 151 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: seen on television. He wasn't quite sure that he'd actually 152 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: done it. After the murders, he took the family car, 153 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: took his dog. He was going to escape to Mexico, 154 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: but he just ended up kind of driving at random 155 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: around the US, having kind of strange experiences, picking up 156 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: hitchhikers who believed that they were animals all over the 157 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: road that he'd hit with the car. He had what 158 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: he believed was a spiritual revelation. He listened to a 159 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: preacher on the radio. He started reading a Bible. He 160 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: went to a campground in a small town on the 161 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: Gulf of Mexico. Believed that he heard an angel telling him 162 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: to turn himself in, that he'd been possessed by the devil, 163 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: and so that's what he did. He went to a 164 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: local police station and turned himself in. 165 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: So he had shot his parents, and who had found them? 166 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: Was it with sister or one of the siblings that 167 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: had discovered them. 168 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: None of the other siblings were living at home, and 169 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: Brian was significantly younger than all the other siblings, so 170 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: they were scattered around the country. None of them even 171 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: lived locally, and he had no relatives living locally. The 172 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: family was kind of isolated from the community. Actually, when 173 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: Brian was arrested in the Gulf of Mexico, he assumed 174 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: that his parents had been found long ago, but actually 175 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: the police there called the police in Maryland, asked them 176 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: to do a wellness check, and the parents hadn't been found. 177 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: You know, they were still in the house and they've 178 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: been dead for over a week, so they weren't found 179 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: until Brian confessed. 180 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: What's interesting about this case is, you know, I've covered 181 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: other stories about people suffering from schizophrenia, one story in 182 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: particular from nineteen thirty five of a young man who 183 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and you know, the idea was 184 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: that when I spoke to several forensic psychologists, they said, 185 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, covering up is not the thing that people 186 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: who suffer from schizophrenia and committed crime are doing. This 187 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: seems contradictory to that. He seems like he's on the run, 188 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: but he's also having delusions at the same time. 189 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that he you know, he 190 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 2: realized he'd done this terrible, terrible thing, probably felt responsible 191 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: and that he was going to go to prison, perhaps 192 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: was thinking of suicide, and just wanted to get out 193 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: of the scene, out of the situation. So I don't 194 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: think he actually saw it as covering up. I think 195 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 2: he was very confused about what was actually going on, 196 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: and later he came to see it in terms of 197 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: like the forces of goodness and loss of evil battling 198 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: over his soul. 199 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: Really, fight or flight is what it sounds like that 200 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: he was doing. It's not that he was willing to 201 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: sit there because he didn't understand the consequences. It was 202 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: just like his instinct was to go because something traumatic happened. 203 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 2: Right, And I think he didn't want to, you know, 204 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: to stay in that scene, in that scene and see 205 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: what had happened. 206 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: So tell me what happens when his parents are discovered? 207 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: How does the rest of this unfold until we get 208 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: to the trial, or if there is a trial. 209 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: Well, at first the police didn't believe him, so when 210 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: it turned out that his parents were actually dead, he 211 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: was arrested and returned home, and then he was hospitalized 212 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 2: in Maryland. Two of his sisters came to support him, 213 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: and he was given an attorney, well they had an't 214 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: attorney actually, and the att the interviewed him and said 215 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: it was very very clear that he was not in 216 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: her right mind. So they decided to be not criminally responsible, 217 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: which is like the Maryland equivalent of the what used 218 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: to be called the insanity defense, which is actually very 219 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: very rarely used successfully. And so in Brian's case, he 220 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: waived trial. He wasn't considered fit to stand trial, and 221 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: he was taken to various facilities and finally he ended 222 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 2: up in Clifton Perkins, which is a forensic psychiatric facility 223 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: where most of the patients are either so they've all 224 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: committed a crime. They're either considered incompetent to stand trial, 225 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: so they're waiting for their sanity to be restored to 226 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: the extent that they can stand trial, or they're like Brian, 227 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: who's been found not criminal responsible, so they're kind of 228 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: there for the long haul until the psychiatrists decide that 229 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: he's competent to be released. 230 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: When we talk about him not competent to stand trial, 231 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: does the parents' past abuse come into play at all 232 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,479 Speaker 1: or is it strictly based on his diagnosis of schizophrenia. 233 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: It's completely based on his diagnosis. I mean, he has 234 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: plenty of interviews with the psychiatrists, but they're really about 235 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 2: his current state of mind, his ability to understand what's 236 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: going on, his thought content, and that kind of thing. 237 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: He told me that he believes that his parents were 238 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: mentally ill and had been for a long time, and 239 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: I assumed that he discussed this with the psychiatrist too, 240 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: But it really was mostly about not about the past 241 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: and how that might have contributed, except genetically. So there's 242 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: no question of, like, you know, what his parents are blame, 243 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 2: or did he have a right to do this or 244 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 2: anything like that. I mean, that was not considered. 245 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: So he is considered not competent to stand trial. Do 246 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: we have a reaction at all from I know that 247 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: you said he is estranged from several of his siblings 248 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: except for one sister. Is there a point where members 249 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: of his family, or his parents' friends, or anybody in 250 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: the community is saying, this is not right. This guy 251 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: should go to jail for gunning down his parents, because 252 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: I know that is the reaction of family members in 253 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: similar situations. 254 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 2: Sure, he has four siblings, one of whom is now deceased, 255 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: and two of them, his brother and one of his sisters, 256 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: were completely in favor of from going to prison. They 257 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: felt that he, regardless of his mental state, what he'd 258 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: done was serious enough that there was no question of 259 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: anything but him taking responsibility, and they pushed for that. 260 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 2: You know, they didn't want to help Pap his lawyer, 261 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: they didn't want to do anything to help him. On 262 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: his side, he had his two other sisters and an uncle, 263 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 2: but no other none of the other extended family members 264 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: got involved. 265 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: I mean, this becomes so complicated because you have two 266 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: people who are dead who, yes, were abusive, but we 267 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: set that aside if we're just talking about legal things. 268 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: Two people who are dead, somebody who has confessed, somebody 269 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: who is obviously suffering from a very severe mental illness. 270 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: But now, are we looking at any possibility that Ryan 271 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: could be rehabilitated and released or where do we stand 272 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: with him at this point before we start talking about 273 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: the actual facility and what happens. 274 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: Yes, the average stay in that particular facility is six years, 275 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: and you know, rehabilitation is the goal, and that often 276 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: takes place with the aid of a lot of medication. 277 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: And many of these patients who are released will be rehabilitated, 278 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: perhaps into an assisted living facility, and they'll be on 279 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: medication for the rest of their lives. You know, Brian's 280 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: been in there for a really long time, much longer 281 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: than many of the other patients. So yes, theoretically he 282 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: could have been rehabilitated and released as many other patients are. 283 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: And the short average length time spent in the hospital 284 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 2: is one of the reasons why there's so much controversy 285 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: about the in sinisty defense and why so many people 286 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: are against it because people are released in what appears 287 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: to be a very short amount of time and certainly 288 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: much shorter than if they had been put in prison 289 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: for the same crime. 290 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: What do studies show about the instances of REPEATD five 291 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: after people have been released who have committed violent crimes 292 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: and have been rehabilitated. I'm assuming their studies that conclude 293 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: whether or not this works or not, or is it 294 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: really individual basis. 295 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: You know, each state is different because each state facility 296 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: has different kind of norms and levels about what's how 297 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: long people stay and when they're allowed at I think 298 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: their rate of recidivism is it's a little higher than prisoners, 299 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: but not very much. But when there are cases of 300 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: repeated offenses, they usually get enormous amounts of publicity because, 301 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: you know, this is someone who's previously already committed a 302 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: crime and now has been released into the community. So 303 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: a lot of people think it seems as though people 304 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: with mental illness who've done terrible things are being released 305 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: when they're not ready, but in fact, it's just that 306 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: their crimes get so much more publicity than those of say, 307 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: prisoners who are acidivist. 308 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: You know, most books about true crime end with the 309 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: end of the crime and the person the offender goes 310 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: off and he's been convicted or sent to a fac 311 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: and that's sort of the end of it, and we're 312 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: focusing on the victims primarily, And in this case, you 313 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: really are focusing on Brian because of what happens after 314 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: he is in the facility. So what are his first 315 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: years like there? 316 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: Brian's first year. During his first years, he was trying 317 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: really hard. He was jumping through all the hoops, he 318 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: was going to all the therapy sessions, he was taking 319 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: the medication. He believed that he could be out in 320 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: you know, five or six years. He still had visits, 321 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: so his life was you know, he's not completely isolated 322 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: in the hospital. He made friends with some of the 323 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: other patients. As I said, you know, he followed all 324 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: the rules and did everything possible to facilitate his release. 325 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: What was the facility, like, I mean, would you consider 326 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: this high quality facility. 327 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: I don't really have anything to compare it to, but 328 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: it seems to me that there's very little to do 329 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: for the patients. And part of this is because of 330 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: government funding restrictions and all kinds of things. But it 331 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: seems that most of the patients and I mean there's chapel, 332 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: there's a gym, but mostly it's just sitting and watching television, 333 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: And most patients are very severely medicated, and the level 334 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: of mental illness goes from like completely catatonic to apparently 335 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: perfectly functional like Brian. They can have jobs like working 336 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: as a janitor or working in the kitchen, and then 337 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: there are people like me who are volunteers who came 338 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: in to offer groups and activities. I think people seem 339 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: to assume that most of the psychiatrists who work in 340 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: a state facility are the least prestigious. In my experience, 341 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the psychiatrists there are not the best, 342 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: and I think working in a facility like that, psychiatrists 343 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: are usually very Their term there is usually very short lived, 344 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 2: so the patients seem to get handed onto one psychiatrist 345 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: after another. Of course, the restrictions on what they're allowed 346 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: to have and what they're allowed to do are very 347 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 2: intense and extreme. And then the thing that Brian found 348 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: worst of all was the medication. The medication that he 349 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: was given, he eventually resisted taking it. It made him 350 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: incontinent and impotent, and eventually he felt that there was 351 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: an acceptable. 352 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: So is this the maximum security facility that he was in? 353 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: Is this where he has spent his whole time since 354 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: the murders? 355 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: This interview comes at a really interesting time actually, because 356 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: on the fifteenth of May he was due to go 357 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: back to He's been there thirty one years. I think 358 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: he was due to have another trial in an attempt 359 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: to get released, which patients have the opportunity to do 360 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: every couple of years. He was going to have a 361 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: public defender. He'd lined up a psychiatrist to testify in 362 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: his favor. I was going to speak, his sister was 363 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: going to speak, And on the Friday before Perkins Facility 364 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: said they were not going to have the trial and 365 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: they were not going to contest it, and they were 366 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: going to allow him to be released. It's also not 367 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: like he can walk out for the doors. You know, 368 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: he'll be there another six months at least, and then 369 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: he'll be moved to a regional hospital which is a 370 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: little less secure, and then to a sort of you know, 371 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: transitional facility. So even though he'll be getting out of Perkins, 372 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: it's not like he's going to, you know, immediately like 373 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 2: be able to get a job and live an ordinary life. 374 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: And just from being there for so long, you know, 375 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 2: it's going to be very difficult for him to adjust 376 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: to the community. He hasn't like he's never been online, 377 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: for example, he's never you know, used an iPhone. I mean, 378 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 2: things have really changed a lot since since the time 379 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: when he went to prison. So it's just partly getting 380 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: used to the life outside and learning how to live 381 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: as an ordinary citizen. 382 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: Do you not have any concern about him being released 383 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: or were saying we trust the evaluators here and as 384 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: much as you can say, I feel like he's ready 385 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: unstable that he is. 386 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: I haven't seen him on a day to day basis. 387 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: But I've known him for ten years, and I have 388 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time interviewing him for this book, 389 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: and I've visited him a lot in the facility, and 390 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: I've spoken to his family members. You know, the conversations 391 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: I have with him are no different from the conversations 392 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: I'd have with anyone else. I mean, he's pissed off 393 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 2: by the way he's treated, but that's inevitable. I think 394 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: anyone would be. I think he's completely irrational about that. 395 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: And he would have to be on medications, but probably 396 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: for the rest of his life, but hopefully not such 397 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 2: strong antipsychotics. And he'll be in contact with a psychiatrist, 398 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 2: and he'll have a social worker and a therapist, and 399 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: he won't be completely isolated. 400 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: Is anyone in his family opposed to this happening? 401 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 2: The siblings that were opposed to him going to Perkins 402 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: will be opposed to it. I'm sure they haven't learned 403 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: that yet. They're not in touch with him, but I'm 404 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: sure they will be. 405 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: Let's go back and talk about his time at Perkins, 406 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: because that's what a lot of the book is about. 407 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: What were the positives aside from his journey with medication, 408 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: and it sounds like maybe they've sort of sorted it 409 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: out and getting it right. Have there been other positives 410 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: to being there besides of course not being in prison. 411 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: The positives about being in Perkins rather than prison are 412 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: one that for most people at least they have a 413 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 2: determinus time w released at some point, which many people 414 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: in prison won't be. You're also allowed to receive visitors 415 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: are more regularly than you're in prison, and you're actually 416 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: allowed to have kissed them, you know, to touch. You're 417 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 2: guarded all the time, but there's no barrier between you. 418 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: There's no restrictions on how many people can come. Once 419 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 2: a year, there's a Christmas party, and there's also summer 420 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: picnic which I have attended, where families and patients are 421 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: all together and the staff members and you can bring 422 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: gifts and there are picnics. And part of being in 423 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 2: the hospital rather than prison is just kind of getting 424 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: to know other people in the same situation who have 425 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: also been through the system. And Brian found, especially on 426 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 2: certain wards, of kind of esprit de corps and a 427 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: real kind of camaraderie and he's made some really great 428 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: friends there who've been released and he's still in touch 429 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: with And then because people are from so many different 430 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: walks of life, there isn't the gang activity that there 431 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: is in prisons. It's a lot safer than it is 432 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: in prisons. This is a hospital as well. You know, 433 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 2: it's not seen as a place for punishment. These are patients, 434 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: you know, they're not given a number, they're addressed by 435 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 2: their names, and theoretically at least they're being treated and helped. 436 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 2: It's not supposed to be a kind of punitive place. 437 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: It's a place where staff members are supposed to be 438 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: helping you. 439 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: Well, you say supposed to be and Brian did not have. 440 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like to me the type of experience 441 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: that we would hope somebody who needs help with the 442 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: mental illness would have. What was this experience like sort 443 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: of from the beginning for him? I know we said boredom, 444 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: but then things seem to devolve for him. 445 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 2: One of the things that I wanted to do with 446 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: this book was to show that once a perpetrator of 447 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 2: a crime disappears from the scene of traditional true crime, 448 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: their lives are still very events. And when I used 449 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: to think about the death penalty, I used to think, well, really, 450 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: the death penalty is not so bad because the alternative 451 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: is like life in solitary confinement or life in prison. 452 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: But now I've realized that people can get used to anything, 453 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 2: and people can develop the life for themselves, you know, 454 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 2: people who are we also about. Of course, they get 455 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 2: used to it. People get used to all kinds of 456 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: terrible circumstances that we can't imagine being in. And eventually, 457 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: when you've been there, say more than ten years, I 458 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: think you start to forget what ordinary life was like 459 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 2: when you're on the outside, and that becomes your life 460 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 2: in the prison or in the hospital, becomes your everyday life, 461 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: your routine, and you're not always thinking about the outside 462 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: and when you're going to be released, or seeing your 463 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: friends and family and so on. So since this is 464 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: what made me so interested in writing about Brian's story, 465 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: is that since he's been in the hospital, he's had 466 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: cancer and recovered from it. He's tried to escape, he's 467 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 2: been shot by the police, he's had a psychiatrist who 468 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: turned out to be criminally insane, witnessed all kinds of things, 469 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 2: he's been drugged beyond recognition, and his life has been 470 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: really eventful. Like I said, I've listed some of the 471 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 2: positive things, but mostly it's been horrible for him, and 472 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: Brian himself sees it as punishment. He believes that the 473 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 2: hospital punishing him because he did try to escape for 474 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 2: a day and disagrees with his psychiatrists and has not 475 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: accepted the routine. He believes that he's been punished for 476 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: fighting back against the hospital. 477 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: Tell me how this story unfolds, How do things go 478 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: he arrives, do his issues really start with the medication 479 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 1: that he's put on, medication he doesn't like, and then 480 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: how do things proceed? 481 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: In the book, I refer to this documentary that was 482 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: made in the hospital called Untying the Straight Jacket. It 483 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: was made in nineteen ninety seven, and it's one of 484 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 2: those A and E investigates with Bill Curtis and they're 485 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: investigating the inside of these psychiatric hospels and they film 486 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: at Clifton Perkins and Brian is one of the main 487 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: patients in the documentary. You can actually find it if 488 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: you google Untying the Straight Jackets. He gets a lot 489 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 2: of camera time, and he's contrasted with some of the 490 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: other patients who are seen as extremely mentally ill. Brian 491 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 2: is seen as a very high functioning patient who may 492 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: get out soon. He keeps fit, he does exercises, he 493 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 2: plays games, he socializes with the other patients. He's seen 494 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: as a very progressive case. And ironically, everyone else in 495 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 2: that documentary has been released and Brian's still there. I mean, 496 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: after taking medication that has completely rendered him uncapable, he 497 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: has stopped taking it, he'd resisted taking it, He's refused 498 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: to join in activities that he doesn't feel are appropriate. He, 499 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 2: according to the psychiatrist, keeps secrets from them, and he 500 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: has tried every opportunity to fight against the hospital, which 501 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: I feel is not evidence of any kind of pathological 502 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: symptoms or insanity. And of course, you know, he's been 503 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: through a different level, and he's had day passes where 504 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: he's allowed to go out in the company of his sister, 505 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: and he's been on more restrictive circumstances where he's actually 506 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: been in restraints, and so he's been sort of up 507 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: and down between different levels. And that's one of the 508 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: things that's most distressing to him because he often feels 509 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: that like, instead of it being sort of progress, sort 510 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: of going up a ladder towards release. It's going up 511 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: and down, up and down all the time, which again 512 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 2: is one of the things I wanted to emphasize in 513 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: the book that most true crime books have this kind 514 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: of trajectory of progress towards, you know, the investigation and 515 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: the neumont and the capturing of the criminal and the 516 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: unfolding of the case with some kind of coherent ending 517 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 2: or closure. And in fact, you know, when I wrote 518 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 2: this book, there isn't really an ending. It's just kind 519 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: of the same sort of bureaucratic confusion and no end 520 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: in sight for Brian, and the same sort of instability 521 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: in the hospital and the lack of clarity. And there 522 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: might have been a happier ending if I'd sort of 523 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 2: stopped the story earlier. But I think whether or not 524 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 2: there's clothes depends on where you end the story. 525 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: What are the ways that he can fight against the 526 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: hospital while he's there, I know you said refusing to 527 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: do activities and things like that. Does he have that 528 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: sort of agency in a facility like that, or does 529 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: he actually have to physically stop himself from doing anything. 530 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: At first, he was like finding ways not to take 531 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: the medication, like hiding it in his mouth and Eventually, 532 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 2: if a patient refuses to take medication, he can be 533 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: sent to a panel of psychiatrists who can decide that 534 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: they can force him to take medication. And even then 535 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: he can be taken to court and made to take medication, 536 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: which in the most extreme case would be being held 537 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: down and given an injection. And so he has resisted 538 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: to a certain degree, but there's only a certain ways 539 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: that you can resist. The way Brian sees it is 540 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: like a question of kind of learning the hospital's language 541 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 2: and the hospital's jargon, and knowing what to say to 542 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 2: psychiatrists and what to conceal from them. And what's frustrating 543 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: is that it doesn't really work. I mean, for example, 544 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: Brian has told me that he's very religious, and religion 545 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 2: has been a great help to him throughout his time 546 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: at the hospital. It's a religious belief he doesn't really 547 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: talk about. He didn't really talk about it to me either, 548 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 2: because it's a very kind of extreme sort of evangelism. 549 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: And when he would talk about that to the doctors, 550 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 2: they would see it as, you know, religiosity is a 551 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: symptom of schizophrenia, so they would see it as sort 552 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: of this kind of apocalyptic belief that was another symptom 553 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 2: of his mental illness, so he stopped talking about it, 554 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: and then it was seen as like withholding information. So 555 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: whether you go along with the regime or whether you resist, 556 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: it's often seen as symptomatic. And that's that's one of 557 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: the reasons why some of the patients told me that 558 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: they would rather be in prison. In fact, some of 559 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: them actually do things to get sent to PRISM is 560 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: because in prison you do have that sense of agency. 561 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: You know, you can, like not go to breakfast, and 562 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: that's your choice. It's not like written down as a 563 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 2: symptom that you know, didn't go to breakfast, or you 564 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: can you know, you can choose to go in the yard, 565 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: you cannot go in the yard. It's not anything that 566 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: you have to go along with this. People aren't taking 567 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: notes and observing your behavior all the time, in fact, 568 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: quite the opposite. I mean, you're kind of ignored most 569 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: of the time unless you do something dangerous. And also, 570 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: I mean for patients like Brian, one of the things 571 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: he thought was a real curse was but the idea 572 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: of hope that he has hope that he's going to 573 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: be released, and that hope loses and hope became a 574 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: horrible thing for him. In the end, he wished he 575 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: could get rid of it. And in prison, if you're 576 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: you know, if you have life without parole, even if 577 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: you have a deaths, you know what's going to happen. 578 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 2: There isn't that constant possibility of release. If you know 579 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: you have a twenty year sentence or a thirty year sentence, 580 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: you know when you're coming to the end. And that's 581 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 2: not the same with the patients in Perkins, Like Brian. 582 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the things that he has 583 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,479 Speaker 1: seen that he was not involved with. It sounds like 584 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: Perkins had some violence there that he witnessed, which I'm 585 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: sure was traumatizing for him. Also, what was he seeing 586 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: that was so disturbing to him? 587 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: He told me that it's not so bad now. I mean, 588 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 2: the violence has decreased. They've made changes in staff and 589 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: added more guards and so on. But he has seen 590 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: patient on patient violence. But he said that the most 591 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: more disturbing than that is violence from the gods because 592 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: they're so bored, they have nothing to do. They're not 593 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: supposed to be reading or looking at the cell phones. 594 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: They supposed to kind of sit looking at patients, and 595 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: according to Brian, it's a very lowly job, and there's 596 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: really not very much of a distinction between the patients 597 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: and the gods, and so to reinforce the hierarchy and 598 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: their difference from the patients, the gods, you know, will 599 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: tease the patients or make fun of them, just basically 600 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: a kind of general belittling. But in terms of actual violence, 601 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 2: while Brian's been there, there's been free patient on patient murders, 602 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 2: and then there was also the psychiatrists who was turned 603 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: out to be clinically in stain and was stalking the 604 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: state's attorney. Brian didn't witness any of the murders they 605 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,719 Speaker 2: took place in both rooms, but he certainly witnessed the aftermath. 606 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: And I think the murders are important because they sort 607 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 2: of highlight what's going on in the facility and the 608 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: kinds of things that go on in secret. There's often 609 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: very little kind of government oversight of these facilities. That's 610 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: the reason why patients like Brian could be kept there 611 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: for so long. You know, there's no kind of border 612 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: review that looks how long someone's been sent there if 613 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 2: they don't have family and support systems, so I think 614 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: the murders are important for kind of highlighting this, And 615 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: of course there was lots of kind of outrage in 616 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 2: the newspapers, and staff were protesting that their jobs were 617 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: too dangerous and that there was not enough government support. 618 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: So what Brian said about the murders, you know, they 619 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: weren't really as as traumatizing as just like the kind 620 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: of day to day like grinding down of your sense 621 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: of self and sense of hope. And some people talk 622 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: about low violence in the sense that, you know, this 623 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: is not a sudden act of violence, but violence that's 624 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: associated with a bureaucracy or with the assists that can 625 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: perpetuate a kind of violence by just completely grinding someone down. 626 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: He thinks the hospital has got better over the last 627 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 2: like ten years since the murders. You know, I don't 628 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 2: know if he's the most reliable drug, but he's seen 629 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: it as not even the same level of dysfunction, but 630 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: sort of ups and downs, but dysfunctional all along. 631 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: Tell me about his escape, Tell me the story of that, 632 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: what happens that day. 633 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: He said he wanted to get sent to prison for 634 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: the reasons that I've said. He didn't want to be 635 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: drugged anymore. So. He'd been secreting his medication and not 636 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 2: taking it. He was looking for an opportunity to escape. 637 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: He managed to at one point take a strutch from 638 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: an ironing board. He concealed it in the ceiling of 639 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 2: his cell. He planned it out for a long time. 640 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: When the opportunity came, he used the strut to take 641 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: a guard hostage. The guard lead him out of the hospital, 642 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: got out of the front doors. He didn't get very far. 643 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 2: I mean, he got maybe a mile or so down 644 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: the road and he was shot by the police. He 645 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: says that he wanted to be killed or sent to prison. 646 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: The idea of being sent back to Perkins. He didn't 647 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 2: believe it was possible, but that's what happened. But he 648 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: was you know, he was in hospital for a while. 649 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: He was quite severely injured in his stomach. So it 650 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: wasn't like a really exciting when people talk about escaping 651 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: from a mental hospital. It wasn't like climbing down a 652 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 2: window or anything like that, although I guess taking a 653 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: hostage is pretty serious. 654 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: What has changed did he say to you since after 655 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: he escaped. 656 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 2: Well, not for a long time. Years later, he did 657 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: something very similar. He attacked a social worker and was 658 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: put in isolation and was medicated. 659 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: I think what's difficult for people perhaps to understand will 660 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: be you know, you hear about these two incidences, right, 661 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: So there's taking the guard hostage, he's not taking his 662 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: medicine because he hates it, and then later on attacking 663 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: a social worker. Then that makes me think, well, how 664 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: do we know if he is released in the next 665 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: six months to a year, how do we know he's 666 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: not going to feel like that again about his medicine 667 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: or something is not going to happen to trigger something. 668 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: Because we've had two violent things happen while at the facility. 669 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: Right, but the last one, you know, it hasn't been 670 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: for at least fifteen years. And obviously this is a simplification, 671 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 2: but we've all misbehaved, perhaps not committed acts of violence, 672 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 2: but done things in the past that we regret and 673 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't do again, even in similar circumstances. And I also 674 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 2: think that he was rebelling against what he saw as 675 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 2: forced medication. He still believes that he's over medicated, but 676 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 2: the medication hasn't been as bad as it was. I 677 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 2: think one of the big differences is he'll get psychiatrists 678 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 2: that he likes, who actually treat him as an equal, 679 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: but as an individual that he'll have a bond with. 680 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: And when he's working with a psychiatrist that he likes 681 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: and that he finds helpful, he'll be stable, you know, 682 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: for all that time. It's when he changed of psychiatrists, 683 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 2: or when he gets a psychiatrist who he feels doesn't 684 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 2: know him. This is one of the things that really 685 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: angers him is that a new psychiatrist will simply copy 686 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: over the diagnosis from the previous psychiatrists. They won't attempt 687 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 2: to reevaluate him or find a new diagnosis. They'll just, 688 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 2: you know, take for granted everything that's in the biolence 689 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 2: is correct and continue on that diagnosis when he feels 690 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 2: that he's not been schizophrenic for a long time and 691 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: he might qualify for other diagnoses. But the idea that 692 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: the psychiatrists are incredibly overworked. They have an enormous number 693 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: of patients. They don't have time to follow each one 694 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 2: individual and see their day to day changes. So that's 695 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: one of the things that has been really difficult for him. 696 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: But then he has had psychiatrists who he's really got 697 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 2: along with that he likes, he likes their attitude, he 698 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: likes their relationship with the patients. I mean, that's the 699 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: thing that really makes the difference is seeing authority not 700 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 2: as this kind of hostile bureaucracy, but as composed of 701 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 2: individuals like him, who have ups and downs, who have 702 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 2: difficulties with the system like he does, who have good 703 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 2: days and bad days, who are not faceless bureaucracy. 704 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,919 Speaker 1: What are the safeguards, if any, that are put into 705 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: place when he is released. I know you said he's 706 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: assigned a psychiatrist. How can they check to see if 707 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: he's taken his medication? I mean, how do we know 708 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: he's staying on the right track Once he's out. 709 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 2: There is a psychiatrist I mentioned him in the book 710 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 2: who has evaluated him five times and found him ready 711 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: to be released each time. And there will be all 712 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 2: these safeguards in place, like he'll be in a facility, 713 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: you know, like a kind of halfway house, where there'll 714 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 2: be staff living in the facility. And first of all, 715 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 2: he'll be accompanied whenever he tries to do anything, and 716 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 2: he'll be helped in getting employment, and he will be 717 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: regularly given medication, and a lot of medication today can 718 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 2: be given in like a shot, like a depot shot 719 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 2: that kind of releases the medication gradually over a month, 720 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: so it's not always a question of like taking your 721 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 2: medication every day. You can go to the doctor and 722 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: the doctor gives you the shot. Then it's out of 723 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 2: your hands. You know, it's released over your body. But 724 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: I think what's most important to me and makes me 725 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: most optimistic is the fact that he really wants to 726 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 2: do well. You know, he really wants to get a job, 727 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 2: he wants to be in a relationship. He wants to 728 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: show society that he's an ordinary individual who can live 729 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 2: amongst others. He does not want to be seen as 730 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 2: a mental patient. He doesn't want people to know about 731 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 2: his crime. And I think that that desire goes a 732 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 2: long way. I mean, there are people who are at 733 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 2: leased to who don't want that, who want to kind 734 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 2: of show their importance or regain their standing in the community, 735 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 2: and I think Brian's sort of humility and understanding that 736 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 2: he'll be just an ordinary person is really important to him. 737 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 2: I mean, he's been on trips and the outside. In fact, 738 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: his sister will come down and take him and he 739 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,439 Speaker 2: can sometimes stay over night, and most of the time 740 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 2: he'll just want to go to Walmart or want to 741 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 2: go to a fast food place. You know, he won't 742 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 2: want to go to a movie or anything really exciting. 743 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: He just wants to see ordinary life, to live like 744 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: an ordinary person. He doesn't have grand ambitions or anything. 745 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: What is the message do you think of your book? 746 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: What are you hoping to get across by writing this book? 747 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 2: I don't think I don't really have a message about 748 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: Brian or about the mental health system. What I wanted 749 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 2: to do is to tell his story, partly because since 750 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: hippo regulations that aren't really opportunities. There's no group therapy 751 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: where people can talk about their past, so much of 752 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: that is confidential, so he wanted an opportunity to tell 753 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 2: his story and also to show I wanted to show 754 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: the traditional conventions of true crime, like the binaries of 755 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 2: the good people and the evil people, or the cops 756 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 2: and the wrongdoers, or even the traditional kind of trajectory, 757 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 2: or the idea of perpetration and victim. These are very complicated, 758 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 2: so I wanted to write a different kind of true 759 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 2: crime story that starts when most others end. And I 760 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 2: didn't want to downplay the crime, but I also wanted 761 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 2: to show that the crime is not the ending, it 762 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 2: can be the beginning, and to show that, you know, 763 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 2: most of the actual events of the story are not dramatic. 764 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: They're not really exciting. They're kind of the ordinary daily 765 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 2: life of someone who's in really difficult circumstances. You know, 766 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 2: whether this is prison or a psychiatric hospital, or the 767 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 2: way that the victim's life goes on. Things don't kind 768 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: of come to a dramatic climax, and stories are long 769 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 2: and complicated. 770 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 771 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 772 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 773 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our 774 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by 775 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. 776 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. 777 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 778 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More and if you 779 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: you know of a historical crime that could use some 780 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked. Email us 781 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll also take 782 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words