WEBVTT - Depresh Mode 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.880 Jen Kirkman. Thank you all again for the great feedback 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.239 that you've been giving me on social media, and I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.239 hope that you are all just taking one quick second 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.080 to leave a five star review on iTunes. I think 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.319 you can leave reviews on Spotify as well. Now the 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:35.720 reason those are important it is because of the algorithm. 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.199 The more people that review and they give it five stars, 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.720 then the more people get shown the podcast. Right then 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.960 it gets more popular. Then I Heart Radio says hey, 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.960 let's do another season. Then the show gets more popular, 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.800 then I help more people with anxiety, and then maybe 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:54.640 I can branch out and do other things from there 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.680 that I have big dreams about. But no pressure, it's 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.440 just my dreams on the line. Anyway. Do you have 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.800 um a side of depression with your anxiety? I know 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.959 that for me. If I had to pick one one 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.000 thing that affected my life more anxiety or depression, I 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.319 would I would definitely say anxiety, but I think at 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.160 one point in my life I would have said depression. 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:23.360 And I think it changes depending on my perspective. Sometimes 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.760 the more I learn about things that I do, I realize, 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.120 oh wait, that's an anxiety based thing that I do. 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.120 That's just that's not just the way things are or 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.800 the way I am that can be fixed with cognitive 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.520 behavior therapy or whatnot. And I wanted to talk to 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.840 my guest today, John Moe. He is the host of 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.720 a podcast called Depression Mode. He has written a book 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:54.320 called The Hilarious World of Depression, And so obviously John 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:59.200 Moe is someone who has experienced and has depression. And 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.880 I like to keep this podcast really just very specifically 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.000 about anxiety, certain anxiety disorders. I mean, there is so 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.400 much we haven't even gotten to yet. And again, don't worry, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:16.280 there are I think at least thirty more episodes coming. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.560 And again, once you write those iTunes reviews, then I 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.600 get a season two, we can cover even more. I mean, 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.520 there's just so much to cover about anxiety. So I 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.320 always want to be like, it's not just an overall 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.840 mental health podcast that would be really focused on anxiety. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.800 But talking to John Jay was very interesting because he 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:38.959 opened my eyes to the fact that actually, the way 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.639 he looks at things right now is that sure he 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:43.880 might have depressed any amount of anxiety, but at the 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.760 end of the day, when he needs to apply his 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:53.520 tools to get through something doesn't really matter what he's 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:58.160 labeling it. And I found that very interesting because I 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.040 was going to conduct the interview in a way that 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.960 it's it's like, you know, let's let's just talk about 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:08.240 how depression informs your anxiety or anxiety informs your depression, 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.720 and then it went a totally other way, which is 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.959 just like it doesn't really matter quite and I got 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.720 everything I wanted out of chatting with John. So I 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.560 love when things work out that way. But you know, 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:24.160 there are certain episodes where I might interview a professor neuroscientists, 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.720 I want to ask them about their research. And then 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:31.520 there are the more conversational episodes where if I ask 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.840 someone about their artistry, if they're a writer, if they're 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.880 a podcaster, and ask them more about their personal story, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.520 obviously we're going to get a ton of gems about 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.080 how they cope. But I also feel like every once 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:47.960 in a while we need an episode like this so 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.680 that people can just hear stories of other people and relate. 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:58.280 You know, Um, you hear a funny guy talking and 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.280 you go, wait, he goes through this and that thing 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.520 that he's describing, All right, Well, well, that's interesting. So 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.720 you know, I met John I think for the first time, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:11.440 I might have been. He used to host a great 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:17.680 and popular comedy radio show called Wits, and it was 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.760 taped out of St. Paul, Minnesota. So I went up there, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.160 I think a couple of times to do that show. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:26.920 And I remember we were on a break from the 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.000 rehearsal that day. Was it was I mean, it was 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.200 a big show. It was like in a theater and 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.599 there was music and all kinds of tech and I 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.080 mean big rehearsals, and John wrote a bunch of sketches 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.120 and we were all on this break and chatting and 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.880 he said something to me about depression and anxiety, and oh, yeah, 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.720 I have that too, And it was just very chit chatty. 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.000 It wasn't like some in depth discussion. And I didn't 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:55.280 know to the extent of which John had any depression 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.960 or anxiety problems, and he didn't know the extent of mine. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:04:59.839 It was just a real quick thing. But I think 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.960 we were both searching around that time for a way 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:13.000 to incorporate talking about these things into our art. And 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:19.560 then eventually we've both made shifts into kind of making 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:21.440 in its own thing. You know, it's not just oh, 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:23.680 I'm going to write a sketch about anxiety or depression. 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.039 I'm going to write some jokes about it. It's well, 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.160 I'm going to do a podcast, right, you know, it 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.200 doesn't have to be funny where we explore depression. And 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:32.800 for me, you know, I'm gonna do a podcast where 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:34.520 it doesn't have to be funny. It can be. It's 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.880 great if it ends up being sometimes to keep you know, 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.760 there a sense of levity about this, let's talk about 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.320 anxiety and so I just think it's cool that. I 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.279 don't know if you would tapped us on the shoulder 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.599 whatteen and said, you know what, you two are both 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.520 like independently going to start your own podcasts about anxiety 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.799 and depression. I don't know if we would have thought 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.359 that that seemed like a thing that would happen. So anyway, 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.440 I'm putting the link in the show notes to All 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.479 Things John so you can buy his work again. He's 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.080 the host and creator of the podcast Depression Mode with 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.200 John Moe and his former award winning podcast The Hilarious 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.880 World of Depression. He has a memoir of the same name, 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.839 The Hilarious World of Depression. He has also written three 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.680 other books. His writing has appeared in The New York 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.080 Times magazine mc sweeney's, The Seattle Times, in many publications, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.960 and he gives speeches around the country on mental health issues. 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.160 So you can check out his podcast again. It's called 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.760 Depressed Mode. D E. P R. E. S H. Will 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.480 link to everything in the show notes and then, of 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.320 course for you gen xers out there, enjoy how this 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.320 interview evolves or de evolves. I'll leave that up to 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.560 you into two gen X people I don't know talking 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:54.359 wistfully about their very misunderstood and very underappreciated generation. But really, 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.080 would we have it any other way? I hope you 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:05.600 enjoy my conversation with John Mark. People cannot get enough 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.840 of hearing that another human being who you know is 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.000 doing quite well. It has a life, has you know, family, 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.680 has jobs, is functioning, but they have anxiety and in 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.720 your case, you also have depression. So so let's start there. 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.960 You you have your podcast Depression Mode, and tell me 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.120 about it, and then let's talk about like, what's your 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:32.920 current relationship today to depression and if if anything, anxiety. Yeah, 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.520 So Depression Mode is a show that that I've been 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.960 doing for a little while now, UM, And it's kind 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.640 of a continuation of my former show, The Hilarious World 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.920 of Depression, UM. This one is a little more based 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.880 on a wide variety of the common mental ailments and 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.640 obstacles that we run across. So it's not just depression, 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:59.240 it is anxiety and trauma, UM, O c D. Just 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.040 a bunch of things that that are all around us, 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.080 that are you know, on in the next person you meet, 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:11.080 there might be something like that going on. And you know, 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.760 like you said, it's it's a lot of conversation with 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:20.480 people that people like to hear about the kind of 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.920 the fundamental root of drama, right, Like a person meets 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.240 up with an obstacle and they need to negotiate their 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:32.240 way through it, around it, um, carry it with them 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.640 more often than not, and and learn how to manage it. 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:39.080 I mean very rarely does someone face something like this, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.680 and and you know, I'll just go to a therapist 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:44.800 for two and a half sessions and then I'll be 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:46.720 cured and will be gone. It's more a matter of 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.240 like how do you live with it? How do you 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.320 adjust to it? And and move forward from there. And 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:57.200 then we do some interviews with some experts on all 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.120 sorts of things mind body connection, some episodes about like 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:05.480 what exactly, Like everybody uses the word bipolar, what exactly 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:07.960 is that there's a lot of terms in mental health 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.680 that are used more often than they are understood, and 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:13.400 so we try to get to the bottom of that. 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:15.960 I think there was a second part of your question. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.360 Was the second part. I tend to ask four questions 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.920 at once that nobody could possibly remember what I'm saying, 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.800 like today and I mean I don't I mean literally today, 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.560 But what's your relationship to depression and anxiety today? How 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:28.520 do you wake up every day in cope? And does 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.680 it affect you every day? And are you medicated to 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:36.560 tell us all the details? Yeah, no, I I I'm 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:42.240 engaged in talk, therapy and medication UM and mostly I 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.800 have it pretty well under control. Lately, it's been rougher. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.520 I'm going through a really rough patch and I don't 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.080 know if it's if it's a weather thing. You know, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.880 I live in Minnesota and this is the time of 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.160 year that it gets very very dark and very cold, 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.840 like prohibitively cold, like you know, you don't really want 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.640 to go walk the dogs when it gets below ten 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.840 degrees um and and it's rougher um. So I've been 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.520 having a harder time um and that's been manifesting itself 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.920 by uh, it's just a little hard. Like I have 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.280 to write an episode of my show. I kind of 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.920 planned for a monologue episode and I got to write 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.840 the dang thing, and uh, you know, I'm just sort 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.560 of like staring at the page and like, Okay, what 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.320 do I have to say? What wisdom do I have 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.959 to say? I And then a voice says, you have 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.839 no wisdom, You're stupid and worthless. Nobody wants to hear 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.560 what you have to say. And and you know, so 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.840 my training, the work that I've done so far is 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:49.560 to recognize cognitive distortions and to say, oh, okay, that's 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.720 not really true, like the voice saying you're an idiot, 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.880 you don't know anything about this stuff. Nobody wants to 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.679 hear from you, Like I have proof that that's not true. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.480 I know, I know for a fact. And so at 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.840 that point I need to do uh some kind of 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:12.360 conscious rerouting saying Okay, that's not true. Where do I 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:14.080 go with this? What is the truth? How do I 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:19.280 get to the truth? How do I kind of dig around, um, 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.520 you know, rechannel that thought stream, um, and and make 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.960 the river go in a different direction. Um. And I 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.720 can do that sometimes, like lately, it's a lot harder 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.840 and it just takes a lot more work, and um, 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.280 you know it takes like, Okay, do I need to 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.640 reevaluate what my meds are doing right now? You know 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.080 I had I changed up my meds a while ago 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.080 because they weren't working very well. Like how is this 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.160 new configuration working? What are the side effects of this 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.239 med that I'm taking? Is it likely that's kicking in? Um? 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.360 You know, how do I feel about increasing dosage? So 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.000 you know, I always tell people it's it's a lot 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.400 like um, the norm e's get to live, except they 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:11.400 do it unconsciously to get to get to this better place, 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.520 to get to a healthier place. I can get there too. 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.640 It's just you know, they get to drive and I 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.000 have to walk kind of thing. Well, I love that 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.719 you just said I can get there too. I mean 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.400 it's these simple things that jump out at me sometimes 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.280 that I hear people say and I go, oh, that's 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.800 so just relaxes me. What a nice reminder. And then also, 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.600 you know, I bet there's one person listening, go, I 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.080 actually didn't know that. I didn't know you could get 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.720 to a place where you are functioning normally or even 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.520 feeling normal, like you know, And I just just thank 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.200 you for saying that. But I want to drill down 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.760 even really specifically. So okay, so this is how it 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.079 can manifest in a creative person's life. For example, of 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.160 your life and you're sitting there and you have to 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:53.960 write your thing, and the voice comes in and says 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.320 you're stupid, idiot, and it's coming from inside the house, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.320 it's in your head, and you do your rerouting. But 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.160 in that moment, can you do enough that you can 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.319 then finish what you're doing or just get a little 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.160 bit started? And then how does what is it? What 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.840 happens right after? Well, I mean the only way I 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.480 can get to an after is if I spend some 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.120 time really recognizing what's actually going on. And this is 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.560 a mistake that I used to make. So I used 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.800 to say, okay, that's not true. How do I get 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.520 back to the right place? And and it didn't work 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.240 until I could say, all right, what am I feeling 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.760 right now? I am feeling? You know, I'm hearing from 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.959 a voice in my head that's been with me for 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.240 a very long time that I'm stupid, I'm worthless, nobody 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.720 wants to what I have to say. And I take 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.240 a moment to really soak that in and not so 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.600 much as a system of belief, but like, okay, where 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.200 in my body is that? Like, oh I feel that 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.040 in my chest, I feel that in my you know, 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.000 in my eyes, like wherever it is, and really soaked 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:03.959 that in. Get to know that opponent and then say, okay, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.600 now let's apply a layer of reality to it, and 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.280 let's let's gently guide it. Oh it doesn't want to 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.320 go okay, well let's let's not yank on it to 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.040 get there, but let's keep guiding it towards there. And 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.480 that generally works sometimes. You know. I was, I was 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.760 working on this, uh, the show that I have to write, 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.840 like two days ago, and I said, just screw this, 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.000 and I went for a walk and thought more about 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.400 what I wanted to say without trying to type it, 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.560 and you know, went for a long walk without headphones 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.800 and just got the blood circulating and and uh, and 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.320 that helped, which is one of many techniques that I've 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.600 found works for me. You know, not everything works for everybody, 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:51.640 but like that's one like okay, put that one on 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.880 the scorecard and put that one in the in the 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:58.160 arsenal and the cupboard what everyone and and so you know, 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.960 it's it's that awareness and then it's a little bit 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.880 of kindness and a little bit of patience. Um. And 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.880 you know, people I worked with closely know that I 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.640 might sometimes say yeah, I couldn't do it today, and 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.680 they're like, okay, you know, and and then and then 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.040 I can. I can get to it later. So in 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.880 that moment when you're stopping and saying, oh, I can't 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:22.960 get this writing done because I have to now stop 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.200 and use my tools, Okay, well this is sometimes what 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.400 I have to do. And I think that what you 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.800 said was so important that you don't just stop and say, well, 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.440 this isn't true. I'm not a stupid loser, Okay, now 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.920 start writing. It's like more self abuse, you know. And 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.040 that's obviously why I hate the whole positive thinking movement 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:43.680 and all that kind of stuff, because it's not about 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.720 positive versus negative. It's really true versus untrue in a way. Well, 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.640 it's it's the kindness is something that you would probably 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.440 have no problem applying to someone else. You know, if 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.440 your friend was in distress and you know, having having 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.760 panic episodes, whatever it is, as you would say, oh, well, sure, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.320 that's the thing that happens. How can I help, how 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.080 can I support you? You know, tell me about it, 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:11.040 whatever you need. And for whatever reason, it's a lot 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.080 harder to you know, apply that to yourself. It's easy 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.120 to give a break to everybody else, but you know, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.440 except for one person in the world. Yeah, well it's 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.240 interesting too, because that thing you're doing when you when 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.280 you can't write and you decided to take a walk instead, 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.640 or you sit with your feelings. I love that. It's 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.400 like that, really is it. It's like our little feelings 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.680 are begging to be heard by us in that moment. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.680 It doesn't mean they're rational and you know, but they're 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:40.360 there and we have to just sit with it and 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.360 sometimes just by facing them they kind of go away. 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.680 But I think what you're doing, that's where the work is. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.000 I mean, you learn that stuff in therapy, but then 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:53.000 you apply it in real life. And I don't know 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.760 if a lot of people do these kind of things 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.480 in these you know, in these moments, but that's where 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.400 the work is, And it doesn't mean therapy is not working. 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.720 It means no, no, no, you're using the tools you 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.240 were given. I'm not saying that you haven't seeing this audience. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.720 You're using the tools you were given, and you're going 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.919 up to practice this, maybe over and over and that 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.119 the fact that you in the moment stop something in 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.640 its tracks doesn't mean you totally rewired it that day. 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:24.440 But over time it does change you, don't you think? Yeah, well, 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.480 I mean you use the word work, and that's such 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.119 an important part. I In the old days when I 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.280 would go to therapy, I kind of thought of it 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.000 as something more like getting a car fixed. Like you 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.879 you drop off your mind and they fix it up 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.399 for you and then you drive away. Um. It was 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.879 only when when I was just getting my ass kicked 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.960 by this stuff so much, you know, depression and anxiety, 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.080 that that I said, I need to work harder at this, 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.000 you know, I need to be an active participant. And 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.000 I was fortunate to find a really great therapist, and 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.680 I noticed the difference in that therapy pist was. At 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.560 the end of the sessions, I was exhausted, you know, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.920 because I had been through a workout. Right, It's been 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.760 like physical therapy, like if you hurt your your knee 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.040 or something like by the end you're like, oh, I 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:16.439 had a workout, and and you know, it is a 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.520 lot of work. And I always tell people, like, one 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.760 of the reasons that people with depression are tired so 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:28.720 much is because it's exhausting, you know, like like and 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.600 and it's exhausting to either get beaten up or to 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.920 fight back. And you know, I'll choose the ladder, um, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.120 but it's it's a lot of work. And so tell 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:43.800 me how depression and anxiety do a dance with you. 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.119 I know, for me, Um, I swear to gone to 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.240 this day, I keep changing my mind on if I 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.199 ever had depression, if it wasn't all a d h 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.000 D or anxiety or the exhaustion from anxiety. But I 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.159 do know one thing that whenever my big waves of 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.840 depression would hit it they really haven't in a long 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.760 time unless something bad happens, you know. But the kind 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:06.719 that come out of nowhere, which is what depression is, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.240 those were such a respite from the anxiety. And I 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:16.040 almost felt very fearless during my depressive times because I 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.200 just you know, I just didn't care. And with anxiety 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:19.919 or you're in such high alert. Do you do you 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:21.520 relate to that or is it is it a little 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.480 different where you can't really tell the difference sometimes Well, 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:29.040 I mean, the more time I spend on on this topic, 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.280 and I've been doing it for several years now, but 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.080 the more time I spend on it, the less dedicated 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:41.600 I am to the idea of the specific disorder. Um 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.119 you know, because like I think it was my therapist 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.840 somebody told me a while ago. The disorders those are 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.040 insurance terms, um you know, so you can say I 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.720 have major depressive disorder, I have generalized anxiety disorder, I 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.320 have whatever whatever you want to put with it. It's helpful, 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.120 it's helpful to understand what people who have felt similar 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:06.800 things go through. But those words in the Diagnostic Statistical 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:12.040 Manual exists largely so that, uh, you don't have to 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:16.520 pay out of pocket to get treatment for all those things. 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.600 The insurance company can recognize it as an illness and 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.280 pick up part of the bill, and that you can 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.359 get treatment, and that the person treating you can get paid. 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:31.480 And like I've been more of a believer that that 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:37.119 people have complicated things going on, and they they you 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:41.359 know often, I mean, I often called depression anxiety the 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:46.520 hollow notes of common mental illnesses because they don't have 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:51.080 strong solo careers. Uh, they're they're usually a pair. And 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:56.359 uh it's interesting sometimes to figure out, okay, is the 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:01.320 anxiety leading to depression? Is a depression lead into anxiety? UM? 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.720 But it almost feels like a parlor game at a 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.040 certain point, because if they're both there, you know, then 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.680 then they both need to be dealt with. UM. And 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:18.680 so yeah, I mean I I certainly have had both UM. 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.000 But you know, like I I interviewed Mike bur Biglia 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.600 a while ago, and and he was talking about how 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.159 he had never been diagnosed with depression, but then he 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.440 described things that had been going on with himself, and 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.400 you know, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I thought, I'm 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.880 not sure sounds like depression to me. But the larger 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.160 point was that it didn't really matter, Like he had 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.400 some complexities in his life that he was trying to manage, 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:50.560 you know, and you could you could call it whatever 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:56.080 you want. So I think I think the terms are helpful, UM, 0:21:56.160 --> 0:22:00.400 but it also can run the risk of oversimplifying UM 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:02.760 to think that you have one but not the other 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:06.119 and and you know whereas the real situation is that 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:08.360 your mind is getting in your way and you've got 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.600 to find a way to manage it. Yeah, you just 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:13.840 opened my eyes on that one. Like, Yeah, I love 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.440 to name things, and I think when you when one 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.080 first has something like again, I have so many people 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:21.720 that listen to this podcast and reach out to me 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:23.760 and say, well, I don't have anxiety. But and then 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:26.200 they list because they think it's like some big doctor 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.520 has to come in a lab coat and put electrodes 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.719 on their head and you know, and so you know, 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.840 to determine that they have anxiety because it's this big, 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.040 bad disease and instead of something that pretty much I 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.440 think everybody has. So I think it's helpful when you're 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.000 first dipping your toe in it too, label like it's 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:44.679 just such a relief when something has a name. And 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.159 then but yeah, you're right, as we are so experienced 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:48.719 with it now and you and I go throughout day 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.159