Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Thank you all again for the great feedback
Speaker 1: that you've been giving me on social media, and I
Speaker 1: hope that you are all just taking one quick second
Speaker 1: to leave a five star review on iTunes. I think
Speaker 1: you can leave reviews on Spotify as well. Now the
Speaker 1: reason those are important it is because of the algorithm.
Speaker 1: The more people that review and they give it five stars,
Speaker 1: then the more people get shown the podcast. Right then
Speaker 1: it gets more popular. Then I Heart Radio says hey,
Speaker 1: let's do another season. Then the show gets more popular,
Speaker 1: then I help more people with anxiety, and then maybe
Speaker 1: I can branch out and do other things from there
Speaker 1: that I have big dreams about. But no pressure, it's
Speaker 1: just my dreams on the line. Anyway. Do you have
Speaker 1: um a side of depression with your anxiety? I know
Speaker 1: that for me. If I had to pick one one
Speaker 1: thing that affected my life more anxiety or depression, I
Speaker 1: would I would definitely say anxiety, but I think at
Speaker 1: one point in my life I would have said depression.
Speaker 1: And I think it changes depending on my perspective. Sometimes
Speaker 1: the more I learn about things that I do, I realize,
Speaker 1: oh wait, that's an anxiety based thing that I do.
Speaker 1: That's just that's not just the way things are or
Speaker 1: the way I am that can be fixed with cognitive
Speaker 1: behavior therapy or whatnot. And I wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: my guest today, John Moe. He is the host of
Speaker 1: a podcast called Depression Mode. He has written a book
Speaker 1: called The Hilarious World of Depression, And so obviously John
Speaker 1: Moe is someone who has experienced and has depression. And
Speaker 1: I like to keep this podcast really just very specifically
Speaker 1: about anxiety, certain anxiety disorders. I mean, there is so
Speaker 1: much we haven't even gotten to yet. And again, don't worry,
Speaker 1: there are I think at least thirty more episodes coming.
Speaker 1: And again, once you write those iTunes reviews, then I
Speaker 1: get a season two, we can cover even more. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just so much to cover about anxiety. So I
Speaker 1: always want to be like, it's not just an overall
Speaker 1: mental health podcast that would be really focused on anxiety.
Speaker 1: But talking to John Jay was very interesting because he
Speaker 1: opened my eyes to the fact that actually, the way
Speaker 1: he looks at things right now is that sure he
Speaker 1: might have depressed any amount of anxiety, but at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, when he needs to apply his
Speaker 1: tools to get through something doesn't really matter what he's
Speaker 1: labeling it. And I found that very interesting because I
Speaker 1: was going to conduct the interview in a way that
Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, let's let's just talk about
Speaker 1: how depression informs your anxiety or anxiety informs your depression,
Speaker 1: and then it went a totally other way, which is
Speaker 1: just like it doesn't really matter quite and I got
Speaker 1: everything I wanted out of chatting with John. So I
Speaker 1: love when things work out that way. But you know,
Speaker 1: there are certain episodes where I might interview a professor neuroscientists,
Speaker 1: I want to ask them about their research. And then
Speaker 1: there are the more conversational episodes where if I ask
Speaker 1: someone about their artistry, if they're a writer, if they're
Speaker 1: a podcaster, and ask them more about their personal story,
Speaker 1: obviously we're going to get a ton of gems about
Speaker 1: how they cope. But I also feel like every once
Speaker 1: in a while we need an episode like this so
Speaker 1: that people can just hear stories of other people and relate.
Speaker 1: You know, Um, you hear a funny guy talking and
Speaker 1: you go, wait, he goes through this and that thing
Speaker 1: that he's describing, All right, Well, well, that's interesting. So
Speaker 1: you know, I met John I think for the first time,
Speaker 1: I might have been. He used to host a great
Speaker 1: and popular comedy radio show called Wits, and it was
Speaker 1: taped out of St. Paul, Minnesota. So I went up there,
Speaker 1: I think a couple of times to do that show.
Speaker 1: And I remember we were on a break from the
Speaker 1: rehearsal that day. Was it was I mean, it was
Speaker 1: a big show. It was like in a theater and
Speaker 1: there was music and all kinds of tech and I
Speaker 1: mean big rehearsals, and John wrote a bunch of sketches
Speaker 1: and we were all on this break and chatting and
Speaker 1: he said something to me about depression and anxiety, and oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have that too, And it was just very chit chatty.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like some in depth discussion. And I didn't
Speaker 1: know to the extent of which John had any depression
Speaker 1: or anxiety problems, and he didn't know the extent of mine.
Speaker 1: It was just a real quick thing. But I think
Speaker 1: we were both searching around that time for a way
Speaker 1: to incorporate talking about these things into our art. And
Speaker 1: then eventually we've both made shifts into kind of making
Speaker 1: in its own thing. You know, it's not just oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to write a sketch about anxiety or depression.
Speaker 1: I'm going to write some jokes about it. It's well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a podcast, right, you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be funny where we explore depression. And
Speaker 1: for me, you know, I'm gonna do a podcast where
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be funny. It can be. It's
Speaker 1: great if it ends up being sometimes to keep you know,
Speaker 1: there a sense of levity about this, let's talk about
Speaker 1: anxiety and so I just think it's cool that. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you would tapped us on the shoulder
Speaker 1: whatteen and said, you know what, you two are both
Speaker 1: like independently going to start your own podcasts about anxiety
Speaker 1: and depression. I don't know if we would have thought
Speaker 1: that that seemed like a thing that would happen. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm putting the link in the show notes to All
Speaker 1: Things John so you can buy his work again. He's
Speaker 1: the host and creator of the podcast Depression Mode with
Speaker 1: John Moe and his former award winning podcast The Hilarious
Speaker 1: World of Depression. He has a memoir of the same name,
Speaker 1: The Hilarious World of Depression. He has also written three
Speaker 1: other books. His writing has appeared in The New York
Speaker 1: Times magazine mc sweeney's, The Seattle Times, in many publications,
Speaker 1: and he gives speeches around the country on mental health issues.
Speaker 1: So you can check out his podcast again. It's called
Speaker 1: Depressed Mode. D E. P R. E. S H. Will
Speaker 1: link to everything in the show notes and then, of
Speaker 1: course for you gen xers out there, enjoy how this
Speaker 1: interview evolves or de evolves. I'll leave that up to
Speaker 1: you into two gen X people I don't know talking
Speaker 1: wistfully about their very misunderstood and very underappreciated generation. But really,
Speaker 1: would we have it any other way? I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoy my conversation with John Mark. People cannot get enough
Speaker 1: of hearing that another human being who you know is
Speaker 1: doing quite well. It has a life, has you know, family,
Speaker 1: has jobs, is functioning, but they have anxiety and in
Speaker 1: your case, you also have depression. So so let's start there.
Speaker 1: You you have your podcast Depression Mode, and tell me
Speaker 1: about it, and then let's talk about like, what's your
Speaker 1: current relationship today to depression and if if anything, anxiety. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So Depression Mode is a show that that I've been
Speaker 1: doing for a little while now, UM, And it's kind
Speaker 1: of a continuation of my former show, The Hilarious World
Speaker 1: of Depression, UM. This one is a little more based
Speaker 1: on a wide variety of the common mental ailments and
Speaker 1: obstacles that we run across. So it's not just depression,
Speaker 1: it is anxiety and trauma, UM, O c D. Just
Speaker 1: a bunch of things that that are all around us,
Speaker 1: that are you know, on in the next person you meet,
Speaker 1: there might be something like that going on. And you know,
Speaker 1: like you said, it's it's a lot of conversation with
Speaker 1: people that people like to hear about the kind of
Speaker 1: the fundamental root of drama, right, Like a person meets
Speaker 1: up with an obstacle and they need to negotiate their
Speaker 1: way through it, around it, um, carry it with them
Speaker 1: more often than not, and and learn how to manage it.
Speaker 1: I mean very rarely does someone face something like this,
Speaker 1: and and you know, I'll just go to a therapist
Speaker 1: for two and a half sessions and then I'll be
Speaker 1: cured and will be gone. It's more a matter of
Speaker 1: like how do you live with it? How do you
Speaker 1: adjust to it? And and move forward from there. And
Speaker 1: then we do some interviews with some experts on all
Speaker 1: sorts of things mind body connection, some episodes about like
Speaker 1: what exactly, Like everybody uses the word bipolar, what exactly
Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of terms in mental health
Speaker 1: that are used more often than they are understood, and
Speaker 1: so we try to get to the bottom of that.
Speaker 1: I think there was a second part of your question.
Speaker 1: Was the second part. I tend to ask four questions
Speaker 1: at once that nobody could possibly remember what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: like today and I mean I don't I mean literally today,
Speaker 1: But what's your relationship to depression and anxiety today? How
Speaker 1: do you wake up every day in cope? And does
Speaker 1: it affect you every day? And are you medicated to
Speaker 1: tell us all the details? Yeah, no, I I I'm
Speaker 1: engaged in talk, therapy and medication UM and mostly I
Speaker 1: have it pretty well under control. Lately, it's been rougher.
Speaker 1: I'm going through a really rough patch and I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's if it's a weather thing. You know,
Speaker 1: I live in Minnesota and this is the time of
Speaker 1: year that it gets very very dark and very cold,
Speaker 1: like prohibitively cold, like you know, you don't really want
Speaker 1: to go walk the dogs when it gets below ten
Speaker 1: degrees um and and it's rougher um. So I've been
Speaker 1: having a harder time um and that's been manifesting itself
Speaker 1: by uh, it's just a little hard. Like I have
Speaker 1: to write an episode of my show. I kind of
Speaker 1: planned for a monologue episode and I got to write
Speaker 1: the dang thing, and uh, you know, I'm just sort
Speaker 1: of like staring at the page and like, Okay, what
Speaker 1: do I have to say? What wisdom do I have
Speaker 1: to say? I And then a voice says, you have
Speaker 1: no wisdom, You're stupid and worthless. Nobody wants to hear
Speaker 1: what you have to say. And and you know, so
Speaker 1: my training, the work that I've done so far is
Speaker 1: to recognize cognitive distortions and to say, oh, okay, that's
Speaker 1: not really true, like the voice saying you're an idiot,
Speaker 1: you don't know anything about this stuff. Nobody wants to
Speaker 1: hear from you, Like I have proof that that's not true.
Speaker 1: I know, I know for a fact. And so at
Speaker 1: that point I need to do uh some kind of
Speaker 1: conscious rerouting saying Okay, that's not true. Where do I
Speaker 1: go with this? What is the truth? How do I
Speaker 1: get to the truth? How do I kind of dig around, um,
Speaker 1: you know, rechannel that thought stream, um, and and make
Speaker 1: the river go in a different direction. Um. And I
Speaker 1: can do that sometimes, like lately, it's a lot harder
Speaker 1: and it just takes a lot more work, and um,
Speaker 1: you know it takes like, Okay, do I need to
Speaker 1: reevaluate what my meds are doing right now? You know
Speaker 1: I had I changed up my meds a while ago
Speaker 1: because they weren't working very well. Like how is this
Speaker 1: new configuration working? What are the side effects of this
Speaker 1: med that I'm taking? Is it likely that's kicking in? Um?
Speaker 1: You know, how do I feel about increasing dosage? So
Speaker 1: you know, I always tell people it's it's a lot
Speaker 1: like um, the norm e's get to live, except they
Speaker 1: do it unconsciously to get to get to this better place,
Speaker 1: to get to a healthier place. I can get there too.
Speaker 1: It's just you know, they get to drive and I
Speaker 1: have to walk kind of thing. Well, I love that
Speaker 1: you just said I can get there too. I mean
Speaker 1: it's these simple things that jump out at me sometimes
Speaker 1: that I hear people say and I go, oh, that's
Speaker 1: so just relaxes me. What a nice reminder. And then also,
Speaker 1: you know, I bet there's one person listening, go, I
Speaker 1: actually didn't know that. I didn't know you could get
Speaker 1: to a place where you are functioning normally or even
Speaker 1: feeling normal, like you know, And I just just thank
Speaker 1: you for saying that. But I want to drill down
Speaker 1: even really specifically. So okay, so this is how it
Speaker 1: can manifest in a creative person's life. For example, of
Speaker 1: your life and you're sitting there and you have to
Speaker 1: write your thing, and the voice comes in and says
Speaker 1: you're stupid, idiot, and it's coming from inside the house,
Speaker 1: it's in your head, and you do your rerouting. But
Speaker 1: in that moment, can you do enough that you can
Speaker 1: then finish what you're doing or just get a little
Speaker 1: bit started? And then how does what is it? What
Speaker 1: happens right after? Well, I mean the only way I
Speaker 1: can get to an after is if I spend some
Speaker 1: time really recognizing what's actually going on. And this is
Speaker 1: a mistake that I used to make. So I used
Speaker 1: to say, okay, that's not true. How do I get
Speaker 1: back to the right place? And and it didn't work
Speaker 1: until I could say, all right, what am I feeling
Speaker 1: right now? I am feeling? You know, I'm hearing from
Speaker 1: a voice in my head that's been with me for
Speaker 1: a very long time that I'm stupid, I'm worthless, nobody
Speaker 1: wants to what I have to say. And I take
Speaker 1: a moment to really soak that in and not so
Speaker 1: much as a system of belief, but like, okay, where
Speaker 1: in my body is that? Like, oh I feel that
Speaker 1: in my chest, I feel that in my you know,
Speaker 1: in my eyes, like wherever it is, and really soaked
Speaker 1: that in. Get to know that opponent and then say, okay,
Speaker 1: now let's apply a layer of reality to it, and
Speaker 1: let's let's gently guide it. Oh it doesn't want to
Speaker 1: go okay, well let's let's not yank on it to
Speaker 1: get there, but let's keep guiding it towards there. And
Speaker 1: that generally works sometimes. You know. I was, I was
Speaker 1: working on this, uh, the show that I have to write,
Speaker 1: like two days ago, and I said, just screw this,
Speaker 1: and I went for a walk and thought more about
Speaker 1: what I wanted to say without trying to type it,
Speaker 1: and you know, went for a long walk without headphones
Speaker 1: and just got the blood circulating and and uh, and
Speaker 1: that helped, which is one of many techniques that I've
Speaker 1: found works for me. You know, not everything works for everybody,
Speaker 1: but like that's one like okay, put that one on
Speaker 1: the scorecard and put that one in the in the
Speaker 1: arsenal and the cupboard what everyone and and so you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's that awareness and then it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of kindness and a little bit of patience. Um. And
Speaker 1: you know, people I worked with closely know that I
Speaker 1: might sometimes say yeah, I couldn't do it today, and
Speaker 1: they're like, okay, you know, and and then and then
Speaker 1: I can. I can get to it later. So in
Speaker 1: that moment when you're stopping and saying, oh, I can't
Speaker 1: get this writing done because I have to now stop
Speaker 1: and use my tools, Okay, well this is sometimes what
Speaker 1: I have to do. And I think that what you
Speaker 1: said was so important that you don't just stop and say, well,
Speaker 1: this isn't true. I'm not a stupid loser, Okay, now
Speaker 1: start writing. It's like more self abuse, you know. And
Speaker 1: that's obviously why I hate the whole positive thinking movement
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff, because it's not about
Speaker 1: positive versus negative. It's really true versus untrue in a way. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's the kindness is something that you would probably
Speaker 1: have no problem applying to someone else. You know, if
Speaker 1: your friend was in distress and you know, having having
Speaker 1: panic episodes, whatever it is, as you would say, oh, well, sure,
Speaker 1: that's the thing that happens. How can I help, how
Speaker 1: can I support you? You know, tell me about it,
Speaker 1: whatever you need. And for whatever reason, it's a lot
Speaker 1: harder to you know, apply that to yourself. It's easy
Speaker 1: to give a break to everybody else, but you know,
Speaker 1: except for one person in the world. Yeah, well it's
Speaker 1: interesting too, because that thing you're doing when you when
Speaker 1: you can't write and you decided to take a walk instead,
Speaker 1: or you sit with your feelings. I love that. It's
Speaker 1: like that, really is it. It's like our little feelings
Speaker 1: are begging to be heard by us in that moment.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they're rational and you know, but they're
Speaker 1: there and we have to just sit with it and
Speaker 1: sometimes just by facing them they kind of go away.
Speaker 1: But I think what you're doing, that's where the work is.
Speaker 1: I mean, you learn that stuff in therapy, but then
Speaker 1: you apply it in real life. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if a lot of people do these kind of things
Speaker 1: in these you know, in these moments, but that's where
Speaker 1: the work is, And it doesn't mean therapy is not working.
Speaker 1: It means no, no, no, you're using the tools you
Speaker 1: were given. I'm not saying that you haven't seeing this audience.
Speaker 1: You're using the tools you were given, and you're going
Speaker 1: up to practice this, maybe over and over and that
Speaker 1: the fact that you in the moment stop something in
Speaker 1: its tracks doesn't mean you totally rewired it that day.
Speaker 1: But over time it does change you, don't you think? Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean you use the word work, and that's such
Speaker 1: an important part. I In the old days when I
Speaker 1: would go to therapy, I kind of thought of it
Speaker 1: as something more like getting a car fixed. Like you
Speaker 1: you drop off your mind and they fix it up
Speaker 1: for you and then you drive away. Um. It was
Speaker 1: only when when I was just getting my ass kicked
Speaker 1: by this stuff so much, you know, depression and anxiety,
Speaker 1: that that I said, I need to work harder at this,
Speaker 1: you know, I need to be an active participant. And
Speaker 1: I was fortunate to find a really great therapist, and
Speaker 1: I noticed the difference in that therapy pist was. At
Speaker 1: the end of the sessions, I was exhausted, you know,
Speaker 1: because I had been through a workout. Right, It's been
Speaker 1: like physical therapy, like if you hurt your your knee
Speaker 1: or something like by the end you're like, oh, I
Speaker 1: had a workout, and and you know, it is a
Speaker 1: lot of work. And I always tell people, like, one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that people with depression are tired so
Speaker 1: much is because it's exhausting, you know, like like and
Speaker 1: and it's exhausting to either get beaten up or to
Speaker 1: fight back. And you know, I'll choose the ladder, um,
Speaker 1: but it's it's a lot of work. And so tell
Speaker 1: me how depression and anxiety do a dance with you.
Speaker 1: I know, for me, Um, I swear to gone to
Speaker 1: this day, I keep changing my mind on if I
Speaker 1: ever had depression, if it wasn't all a d h
Speaker 1: D or anxiety or the exhaustion from anxiety. But I
Speaker 1: do know one thing that whenever my big waves of
Speaker 1: depression would hit it they really haven't in a long
Speaker 1: time unless something bad happens, you know. But the kind
Speaker 1: that come out of nowhere, which is what depression is,
Speaker 1: those were such a respite from the anxiety. And I
Speaker 1: almost felt very fearless during my depressive times because I
Speaker 1: just you know, I just didn't care. And with anxiety
Speaker 1: or you're in such high alert. Do you do you
Speaker 1: relate to that or is it is it a little
Speaker 1: different where you can't really tell the difference sometimes Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, the more time I spend on on this topic,
Speaker 1: and I've been doing it for several years now, but
Speaker 1: the more time I spend on it, the less dedicated
Speaker 1: I am to the idea of the specific disorder. Um
Speaker 1: you know, because like I think it was my therapist
Speaker 1: somebody told me a while ago. The disorders those are
Speaker 1: insurance terms, um you know, so you can say I
Speaker 1: have major depressive disorder, I have generalized anxiety disorder, I
Speaker 1: have whatever whatever you want to put with it. It's helpful,
Speaker 1: it's helpful to understand what people who have felt similar
Speaker 1: things go through. But those words in the Diagnostic Statistical
Speaker 1: Manual exists largely so that, uh, you don't have to
Speaker 1: pay out of pocket to get treatment for all those things.
Speaker 1: The insurance company can recognize it as an illness and
Speaker 1: pick up part of the bill, and that you can
Speaker 1: get treatment, and that the person treating you can get paid.
Speaker 1: And like I've been more of a believer that that
Speaker 1: people have complicated things going on, and they they you
Speaker 1: know often, I mean, I often called depression anxiety the
Speaker 1: hollow notes of common mental illnesses because they don't have
Speaker 1: strong solo careers. Uh, they're they're usually a pair. And
Speaker 1: uh it's interesting sometimes to figure out, okay, is the
Speaker 1: anxiety leading to depression? Is a depression lead into anxiety? UM?
Speaker 1: But it almost feels like a parlor game at a
Speaker 1: certain point, because if they're both there, you know, then
Speaker 1: then they both need to be dealt with. UM. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean I I certainly have had both UM.
Speaker 1: But you know, like I I interviewed Mike bur Biglia
Speaker 1: a while ago, and and he was talking about how
Speaker 1: he had never been diagnosed with depression, but then he
Speaker 1: described things that had been going on with himself, and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I thought, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure sounds like depression to me. But the larger
Speaker 1: point was that it didn't really matter, Like he had
Speaker 1: some complexities in his life that he was trying to manage,
Speaker 1: you know, and you could you could call it whatever
Speaker 1: you want. So I think I think the terms are helpful, UM,
Speaker 1: but it also can run the risk of oversimplifying UM
Speaker 1: to think that you have one but not the other
Speaker 1: and and you know whereas the real situation is that
Speaker 1: your mind is getting in your way and you've got
Speaker 1: to find a way to manage it. Yeah, you just
Speaker 1: opened my eyes on that one. Like, Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: to name things, and I think when you when one
Speaker 1: first has something like again, I have so many people
Speaker 1: that listen to this podcast and reach out to me
Speaker 1: and say, well, I don't have anxiety. But and then
Speaker 1: they list because they think it's like some big doctor
Speaker 1: has to come in a lab coat and put electrodes
Speaker 1: on their head and you know, and so you know,
Speaker 1: to determine that they have anxiety because it's this big,
Speaker 1: bad disease and instead of something that pretty much I
Speaker 1: think everybody has. So I think it's helpful when you're
Speaker 1: first dipping your toe in it too, label like it's
Speaker 1: just such a relief when something has a name. And
Speaker 1: then but yeah, you're right, as we are so experienced
Speaker 1: with it now and you and I go throughout day
Speaker 1: to day things, it doesn't really matter. It's like I
Speaker 1: have my tools, I have that feeling whatever the thing is. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean all the disorder means is that it's interfering
Speaker 1: with living your life. The way you want to live it.
Speaker 1: And so like, if if if your obsessive compulsiveness is
Speaker 1: making you late for work, that then it's an obsessive
Speaker 1: compulsive disorder because it's interfering with your life. If if
Speaker 1: your depression the you know that you're feeling is meaning
Speaker 1: that you're not really making healthy meals for your kids
Speaker 1: when you need to be, then that's a disorder. That's
Speaker 1: that's interfering. It's nothing really more mystical than that. There
Speaker 1: isn't like a chemical threshold you need to reach. It's
Speaker 1: just it's messing things up. Bloom, It's a disorder. Anxiety
Speaker 1: bites will be right back after a quick little message
Speaker 1: from one of our sponsors. When you were just a
Speaker 1: young thing on this earth, you know, obviously who knows
Speaker 1: what you knew then, what you didn't know then. But
Speaker 1: looking back on it with the adult narrative, when do
Speaker 1: you ink depression, anxiety, just all your general things started
Speaker 1: to Did they interfere with your life as a kid?
Speaker 1: Did did you notice it? Yeah? Um, usually I say
Speaker 1: seventh grade because that's when I really remember the first
Speaker 1: wave of like, oh, something is happening to me and
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but I can't function,
Speaker 1: and I better keep this a secret because I've never
Speaker 1: heard of anybody else going through this. UM. That's when
Speaker 1: that happened. UM. I grew up with UM. So my
Speaker 1: parents grew up in Norway during World War Two and
Speaker 1: during the Nazi occupation, and that resulted in all kinds
Speaker 1: of traumas for them, severe traumas, life or death scenarios,
Speaker 1: often death of people around them. UM My dad didn't
Speaker 1: have access to really great cognitive behavioral therapy, and post
Speaker 1: war Norway cigarettes in vodka, however, were plentiful and that
Speaker 1: was the preferred method of treatment, and he stuck with
Speaker 1: those his whole life. And so I grew up in
Speaker 1: UM in a house with substance use and all the
Speaker 1: deadening effects of that and the the unreliable narrative that
Speaker 1: that produces. And so I think there was you know,
Speaker 1: I I kind of started out thinking in recent years
Speaker 1: that it's fifty fifty where these things come from. It's
Speaker 1: either innate or it's environmental. I'm much more a believer
Speaker 1: in the environmental side than I used to be. I'm
Speaker 1: much more of a believer in the trauma as basis
Speaker 1: for it. UM because when you're when you're in a situation,
Speaker 1: especially in childhood, when you're in a home where things
Speaker 1: aren't working and aren't being acknowledged as as not working. Um,
Speaker 1: you get into often one of two very rational responses,
Speaker 1: depression or anxiety. In my case, like there was stuff
Speaker 1: going on, and with depression you can not feel it
Speaker 1: as much. So your body tells itself and your brain
Speaker 1: tells itself to deaden up to to just you know,
Speaker 1: not feel as a defensive mechanism. I know people who
Speaker 1: grew up in in physically abusive homes, and I wasn't
Speaker 1: one of those, but I know people who have who
Speaker 1: developed a lot of anxiety because you've got to be
Speaker 1: on guard, you know, because there might be a fist
Speaker 1: or a plate head in your way and you need
Speaker 1: to be on the lookout all the time. It's a
Speaker 1: very uh, very rational response to the situation. The trick
Speaker 1: is later when the threat passes and you can't let
Speaker 1: go of those things. That is ding ding ding. That
Speaker 1: is really to me, I think that is some thing
Speaker 1: that I don't know who needs to understand this. Does
Speaker 1: anybody listening that the coping mechanisms we use for one thing,
Speaker 1: they don't. Well, first of all, they're not good coping mechanisms,
Speaker 1: but they're good for you know, there there what we
Speaker 1: had at the beginning, whatever in quotes bad coping mechanisms
Speaker 1: we used, but they don't just stay in their little place.
Speaker 1: Then it becomes almost for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: your personality. It's it's all the time, and and you
Speaker 1: train yourself to become this person. It would be like
Speaker 1: if you went to somewhere cold and wore winter coat
Speaker 1: there and then you left and you never took it off,
Speaker 1: and now you're living in Florida and you walk around
Speaker 1: in a downcoat like it doesn't that's not helpful. But
Speaker 1: you know, these analogies are terrible. And keeping that one
Speaker 1: in well, I mean it's like my my parents, for
Speaker 1: whatever else was going on with them, they loved me
Speaker 1: a lot, and I have h I love kids a lot.
Speaker 1: I can freely express my love for my kids. It's
Speaker 1: a wonderful, wonderful thing. It's warm. So that's that wasn't
Speaker 1: a problem. But I held onto Okay, there's a threat
Speaker 1: going on, there's a variable I can't control in my life.
Speaker 1: I'll shut down, I'll feel nothing, I'll turn against myself,
Speaker 1: you know, all these things, and it it it drives
Speaker 1: me crazy, although I've I've sort of just learned to
Speaker 1: accept it to some extent. When people characterize therapy, whether
Speaker 1: it's guided by a professional or just your own journey
Speaker 1: of understanding of yourself, that that it's seen as oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, you just you go in there and then
Speaker 1: you hate your mother. You go in there and you
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not that I love my mother,
Speaker 1: I love my my late father, but um, but it's
Speaker 1: a way of saying, like, Okay, here's how I was made,
Speaker 1: and unless I made changes along the way, that's baked
Speaker 1: into who I am. This is the programming, this is
Speaker 1: the construction of what I am. And so that's the
Speaker 1: baseline of a kind of enlightened or semi enlightened adulthood
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, that's what my brain is set up
Speaker 1: to do. How can I change that? How can I
Speaker 1: alter that? And and that's the that's the journey. But
Speaker 1: you can't you can't understand where you are or where
Speaker 1: you're going without thoroughly understanding where you've been. But once
Speaker 1: you can look at someone else's story and say, well,
Speaker 1: my god, how could they possibly have known, you know,
Speaker 1: anything about you know, their own emotions. They're not going
Speaker 1: to suddenly pass on to me some tools that they
Speaker 1: didn't have. I tell my kids, I just want to
Speaker 1: screw you up in a different way than I was
Speaker 1: screwed up. I just want some novelty introduced, you know,
Speaker 1: some variation in the gene pool of messing up. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, I I wrote, I wrote a memoir,
Speaker 1: The Hilarious World of Depression. It's a great book. Everyone
Speaker 1: get it. Will link to it in the show notes. Sorry,
Speaker 1: thank you, And a lot of it deals with with
Speaker 1: my parents and talks about what they've been through. And uh,
Speaker 1: my mom was terrified about this. I mean, she's eighty seven,
Speaker 1: and she's just didn't want a lot of this stuff
Speaker 1: out there because, you know, for lots of reasons. And
Speaker 1: and she's like, I just don't want to be seen
Speaker 1: as the bad guy. And I said, well, there's there's
Speaker 1: no bad guys. Um, there's just the Nazis are the
Speaker 1: bad guys. Let's all remember this and we should punch
Speaker 1: them as much as possible. Um. But I said, it's
Speaker 1: I I just want to portray the situation that you
Speaker 1: were in the struggle that you were in and uh.
Speaker 1: And she when the book came out, she kept it
Speaker 1: in the closet of her apartment, and then after a
Speaker 1: couple of days, she would open the closet and put
Speaker 1: the book in the doorway, and then a couple more
Speaker 1: days she'd move it down the hall towards her living room.
Speaker 1: And so it's this extremely slow stop motion animation that
Speaker 1: it and it finally got to her and then she
Speaker 1: she read it and she loved it, even though it
Speaker 1: had those hard things. She said, Oh, I understand now,
Speaker 1: I understand that you're just writing about people's experiences and
Speaker 1: you're trying to help other people. I'm sittings, that's it.
Speaker 1: Well that I want to ask you about helping other people. Um,
Speaker 1: I will tell you really quick, just like a fun
Speaker 1: story from someone without kids, who I have a really
Speaker 1: good example of how you uh really just don't know
Speaker 1: how you're going to screw kids up. But years ago,
Speaker 1: ten fifteen years ago, my friend his sister was coming
Speaker 1: to town and she brought her son with her, and uh,
Speaker 1: at the last minute, her husband couldn't come to town,
Speaker 1: so it's just her and the kid, and my friend
Speaker 1: wanted to dinner alone with his sister, and they were
Speaker 1: staying at this fancy hotel and they were just going
Speaker 1: to go down to the lobby and I said, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'll babysit the kid. And so they put
Speaker 1: the kid to sleep. He was about five, and I
Speaker 1: was just in the other room. Um. They told him that,
Speaker 1: you know, if he wakes up, there's gonna be this
Speaker 1: girl their named Jen. Anyway, he wakes up because he's
Speaker 1: having nightmares because he didn't like the flight. And I,
Speaker 1: you know, talk about this in the pockets all the time,
Speaker 1: but I had terrible fear flying my whole life and
Speaker 1: got over it, and my life's goal is to help
Speaker 1: people with fear a flying. And so I thought, here's
Speaker 1: the moment I can parent this kid. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: what what didn't you like about the plane? And he
Speaker 1: said all the noises and the clanging and the this
Speaker 1: and the and I explained him what each noise was
Speaker 1: and then it was actually means the plane is working
Speaker 1: exactly as it should and he said, oh okay. And
Speaker 1: see he got really excited for the flight home. And
Speaker 1: they were like, Jen, I can't believe it. You've cured him.
Speaker 1: He's actually excited for the flight home, and cut to
Speaker 1: I get a call from my friend who told mean
Speaker 1: that the kid had the worst panic and anxiety on
Speaker 1: the flight home because throughout the flight it was just
Speaker 1: very quiet, you know that kind of airplane. And he's like,
Speaker 1: he's not making noises. We're gonna crash, the girl told me.
Speaker 1: And it's like I thought I was like inspiring the
Speaker 1: next generation, and I'm the code. I made it worse.
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, I can imagine what it's
Speaker 1: like to parent. I feel like every day would just
Speaker 1: be full of those things that you know. Had had
Speaker 1: my friend not told me that, I would never have known,
Speaker 1: and I'd be telling the tale of how I cared
Speaker 1: a child of fear flying. Like half the time, you
Speaker 1: don't get the feedback that you did it wrong, you know,
Speaker 1: in the in the immediate. So I give you a
Speaker 1: lot of granted And I can't wait until your kids
Speaker 1: write a book about you. I'll have them on the podcast.
Speaker 1: My my kids, my oldest to have three kids, The
Speaker 1: oldest two are are in college now. So then you
Speaker 1: get to discover what they have to say about you.
Speaker 1: On social media. And so my my son tweeted the
Speaker 1: other day about how because he had a history an
Speaker 1: interest in history. He's a history major. Um, I took
Speaker 1: him to see Lincoln, the Dan day Lewis Lincoln. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was like, what a wonderful parent, I'm taking
Speaker 1: him to see Lincoln. And he tweeted the other day,
Speaker 1: my dad took me to see Lincoln when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, and I got so bored that I cried
Speaker 1: in the theater out of boredom. I was so despondently
Speaker 1: bored that I wept in the theater. And I just replied, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that one's on my parenting highlight reel. That's He's like,
Speaker 1: I almost lost my love for his story. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: almost killed it. Or Daniel day Lewis killed it. Let's
Speaker 1: blame him. We'll be right back. So you mentioned a
Speaker 1: little bit ago before I went on that jag about
Speaker 1: the kid in the airplane that, um, you know you
Speaker 1: wrote your book. You wanted people to share their stories.
Speaker 1: You wanted to share your story to help people. I
Speaker 1: hate origin of a feeling questions like when did you
Speaker 1: know you wanted to help people? I don't mean it
Speaker 1: like that, but I guess do you have any thoughts?
Speaker 1: Can we explore? I include myself in this. Why do
Speaker 1: we want to help people when we're not finished ourselves? Um,
Speaker 1: it's not obviously from this huckster place of give me
Speaker 1: all your money and I've got the cure. But it
Speaker 1: does helping people help. I mean, I know the answer
Speaker 1: is yes, but I think it's more than that. What
Speaker 1: is it? Well, for me, it's really simple. Um My
Speaker 1: my older brother had untreated depression and he shot himself
Speaker 1: and he died, and and he had been working on
Speaker 1: a narcotics anonymous hotline. He was he was in recovery
Speaker 1: and was just dedicated every spare minute he had to
Speaker 1: helping people. Could believe everybody's life was worth living, except
Speaker 1: his own. And he had kept it so shut down
Speaker 1: about himself that um that he died of it. And
Speaker 1: so I decided, all right, I can talk, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll I'll make it my mission to get more people talking.
Speaker 1: And so that's you know, I talked about that in
Speaker 1: my show. Every week we're here to get more people talking.
Speaker 1: We want more people to talk so that they can
Speaker 1: realize they're not alone, you know, so that the people
Speaker 1: we love can stay here so we can love them more. Um.
Speaker 1: And for me, it's It took a long time to
Speaker 1: kind of get to that idea of being here to help,
Speaker 1: because I mean, I I was an actor for a
Speaker 1: while when I was younger, and so then I was like,
Speaker 1: I'll put on a show. I was in radio. I'll
Speaker 1: put on a show. You know, did a lot of comedy,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll make people laugh all this stuff, and
Speaker 1: and it's great is and it's rewarding. Um. But I
Speaker 1: got to a point where I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm middle aged. What do I want to do
Speaker 1: with this time left? What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 1: What should I do? And Um, I ran into a
Speaker 1: situation where, uh, my wife had an appendeck to me
Speaker 1: or appendicitis, severe appendicitis that went into sepsis while we
Speaker 1: were traveling, while we were in Wyoming. Um, and we
Speaker 1: got her back to St. Paul and she survived, but
Speaker 1: it was so close, and and I thought, what am
Speaker 1: I really supposed to do here? And the only really,
Speaker 1: the only thing I could think of, because I'm not religious,
Speaker 1: I didn't prey on it. I just thought, well, maybe
Speaker 1: you could just help people a little bit more, Maybe
Speaker 1: you could make people feel a little bit better about
Speaker 1: the situation. That they're in. Um, you know, because when
Speaker 1: I'm when I'm at my most recessed with the depression,
Speaker 1: the anxiety, everything like that, I can realize, oh the
Speaker 1: wind is blow and fill that wind on my skin.
Speaker 1: Look at that the blue sky, or look at that
Speaker 1: gray sky, look at those amazing clouds. Um. And if
Speaker 1: I can offer that to more people, um, you know,
Speaker 1: who are in this you know, and I'm I can
Speaker 1: still look at it bleakly, I can still say, Okay,
Speaker 1: this temporary pile of atoms that makes up a person
Speaker 1: that will soon disperse and become a different thing later on. Um,
Speaker 1: you know. That's how can I make that brief journey
Speaker 1: through life that we have a little bit better and
Speaker 1: not so terrifying because life is a sort of sick
Speaker 1: joke when you think about it, like like we're here
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna die and they tell you and
Speaker 1: yeah you find out the end. There's no, Yeah, there's no,
Speaker 1: and it's gross. It's such a mean joke that if
Speaker 1: I can just make it a little bit better and
Speaker 1: if people want to give me a few dollars to
Speaker 1: make that happen, so much the better. But that's what
Speaker 1: it's about. Money, I all this blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: How it's about them money. I knew it cash, that's
Speaker 1: what you know. That's why I got into membership based podcasting.
Speaker 1: You know, that's where it is. Well, it's funny you
Speaker 1: and I have a similar thing. You You mentioned your
Speaker 1: first instinct was to keep your feelings and depression a secret,
Speaker 1: and so did I. And you know, although we are
Speaker 1: not gen Z. We we did not grow up in
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds. We had running water and everything, and
Speaker 1: our instinct was to keep it a secret, and that
Speaker 1: instinct was validated by the world. And so I hope
Speaker 1: we are um making a difference. And I know that
Speaker 1: you are, for sure by by talking about this and
Speaker 1: giving such, you know, inspiration and hope to other people. Um,
Speaker 1: it's we're gen X though, so then we have an
Speaker 1: innate knowledge that everything is stupid and boring. We'll see,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. And I think this is what I
Speaker 1: want to tell the younger. We're forgotten about during all this,
Speaker 1: but that's and I think we've been right about a
Speaker 1: lot of that. We've been right about everything. And I
Speaker 1: feel bad for the young people because I think they're
Speaker 1: in such a bad place mentally because they had hope.
Speaker 1: And I'm not even trying to be funny. Um, we
Speaker 1: never did to me. One of the lyrics in a
Speaker 1: song that spoke to me just so much. I mean,
Speaker 1: and it's such an obvious gen X anthem of was
Speaker 1: Nirvana with I find it hard. It's hard to find.
Speaker 1: Oh well whatever, never mind. Like I remember hearing that
Speaker 1: and thinking that's it, that right there, and it's funny.
Speaker 1: I wanted to write a book about like the Buddhism
Speaker 1: of gen X, like how we it's not that we
Speaker 1: don't care, we care very deeply, but we had this
Speaker 1: also like we are really up against it, you know,
Speaker 1: like how like not every second of the day can
Speaker 1: be spent in hyper vigilant it's about changing the world.
Speaker 1: It just can't. You won't survive. It's not that I
Speaker 1: don't want to give them their proper you know, validation
Speaker 1: that life's really hard. I think there's a hyper vigilance
Speaker 1: they've been taught to have by the horrible people who
Speaker 1: you know, I want them addicted to the internet, which
Speaker 1: is anxiety. That is anxiety. Yeah, no, it's I mean,
Speaker 1: now I'm thinking of Jesus Jones because I am jen X,
Speaker 1: and that's what we do. You know, it's not it's
Speaker 1: not that you're uh, you're watching the world wake up
Speaker 1: from history. You don't have to wake the world up
Speaker 1: from history, you know, right here, right now. Yeah, look, Jen,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sorry to bring up Jesus Jones. I'm sure
Speaker 1: everybody on your show is always bringing up Jesus Jones.
Speaker 1: The neuroscientists, they can't stopping, they can't stop to it. John,
Speaker 1: This is devolved into a wonderful I'm not even being
Speaker 1: sarcastic jen X discussion. It's so organically happened here and
Speaker 1: it makes me so happy. Are you? Are you a
Speaker 1: singles person or a reality bites person? Reality bites hence
Speaker 1: the title of the podcast a little nod to it.
Speaker 1: As I've often said on Twitter, like I would kill
Speaker 1: anyone if Winona even suggested that maybe I should. So,
Speaker 1: I'm fiercely loyal to Winona. Writer to a dangerous thread.
Speaker 1: Great way to end up mental health podcast. I'm a
Speaker 1: woman of my word. Did I tell you that we
Speaker 1: would evolve or de evolve into a conversation about Generation X.
Speaker 1: I love that I ended the interview on John saying
Speaker 1: he would kill for Winona Writer, because I mean, we
Speaker 1: did keep talking for a few minutes after that, but
Speaker 1: I told the editors let's just stop there. I think
Speaker 1: it's funny and hopefully John doesn't mind. Oh and I
Speaker 1: hope none of you get in between him and Winnown
Speaker 1: Writer because he has warned you. All Right, but I've
Speaker 1: got some great takeaways here from this episode, so let's
Speaker 1: recap some of the things that we've learned from John. Right.
Speaker 1: One way to get out of a anxiety or depression,
Speaker 1: funk or spiral is to recognize cognitive distortions, which are
Speaker 1: really another way of saying, you know, a little voice
Speaker 1: saying to you, you're an idiot, you don't know anything
Speaker 1: about this stuff, nobody wants to hear from you, and
Speaker 1: then recognizing that as a cognitive distortion and starting to
Speaker 1: turn it around by saying, you know, I have proof
Speaker 1: that that's not true. After recognizing a cognitive distortion, it's
Speaker 1: time to do some conscious rerouting, asking yourself questions, Okay,
Speaker 1: that cognitive distortion is not true. Now where do I go?
Speaker 1: What is the truth? How do I get to the truth.
Speaker 1: Sometimes if you're on medication, there are moments when you
Speaker 1: have to look at that factor and say, do I
Speaker 1: need to reevaluate what my medication is doing right now?
Speaker 1: You know, how is this new configuration of medication work.
Speaker 1: What are the side effects of the medication that I'm taking?
Speaker 1: Is the medication kicking in? How do I feel about
Speaker 1: increasing dosage? These are things that you have to keep
Speaker 1: up on. They don't just become automatic once you start
Speaker 1: doing them. When you're recognizing a cognitive distortion, there can
Speaker 1: be a temptation to say, okay, I recognize it, move on,
Speaker 1: But really the next step is asking yourself, all right,
Speaker 1: what am I feeling right now? If i'm if I'm
Speaker 1: hearing this little voice that's telling me I'm stupid and
Speaker 1: an idiot and I'm worthless. Where in my body is that?
Speaker 1: Do you feel it in your chest? Do you feel
Speaker 1: it in your eyes? Wherever it is? Get to know it?
Speaker 1: And then after that you can apply the layer of
Speaker 1: reality to those thoughts and gently guide them back to
Speaker 1: the truth, and if they don't want to go there,
Speaker 1: keep guiding it. But every once in a while you
Speaker 1: can just say, you know what, to get up and
Speaker 1: take a walk. And every once in a while, when
Speaker 1: you can't exactly turn things around, that day. If you
Speaker 1: have some understanding people in your life that understand how
Speaker 1: you work, sometimes you can always say, yeah, I couldn't
Speaker 1: do it today. When we're dealing with rerouting our brain
Speaker 1: from a cognitive distortion to the truth. Kindness is something
Speaker 1: that's very important, being kind to ourselves, talking to ourselves
Speaker 1: in a kind way. If you had a friend in distress,
Speaker 1: you probably would say, how can I support you? Tell
Speaker 1: me about it, whatever you need. But for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: it's harder to do that for yourself. It's easy to
Speaker 1: give a break to everybody else except for one person
Speaker 1: in the world you. John talked about how you used
Speaker 1: to think of therapy as something more like taking your
Speaker 1: car to get it fixed. You know, you're gonna drop
Speaker 1: off your mind and they'll fix it up for you,
Speaker 1: and you drive away. But it was only when he
Speaker 1: felt his ass was getting kicked by depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: that he's said, I need to actually work harder at this.
Speaker 1: I need to be an active participant in my recovery.
Speaker 1: For John, he feels like anxiety and depression don't necessarily have,
Speaker 1: as he puts it, strong solo careers. They're usually a pair.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we do want to figure out, okay, is the
Speaker 1: anxiety leading to depression? Is the depression leading to anxiety.
Speaker 1: But to John it can feel like a parlor game
Speaker 1: at some point, because if they're both there, then they
Speaker 1: both need to be dealt with. All that a disorder
Speaker 1: means is that it's interfering with living your life the
Speaker 1: way you want to live it. So if you're obsessive
Speaker 1: compulsiveness is making you late for work, then there you go.
Speaker 1: Obsessive compulsive disorder. Really nothing more mystical than that. There
Speaker 1: isn't a particular chemical threshold you need to reach. It's
Speaker 1: just that if something is messing things up for you,
Speaker 1: it's a disorder. Nazis are bad guys. I think we
Speaker 1: knew that, but I just wanted to reiterate. Nazis are
Speaker 1: bad guys, and of course helping other people can help
Speaker 1: us help ourselves. Again, thank you for listening to another
Speaker 1: episode of Anxiety Bites. I am Jen Kirkman. You can
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram at jen Kirkman. I'm on TikTok
Speaker 1: same thing at Jen Kirkman. I put up little audio
Speaker 1: grams of the podcast on both of those sites. Thin
Speaker 1: you can follow me on Twitter too, But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like an on an anxiety podcast. I feel
Speaker 1: like the last website I should recommend this Twitter for
Speaker 1: me personally, that site makes me anxious. That's a whole
Speaker 1: other story for a whole other episode. Have a great week,
Speaker 1: and just remember, yes, anxiety bites, but you're in control.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.