WEBVTT - #310 Guest Host Laura Nirider with Herman Williams 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.640 I'm Jason Vlam, host of Rafel Conviction, but this week, 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:07.920 instead of hearing me, I've invited a legitimate genius from 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.240 the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:15.720 the conversation as guest host Here at Raefel Conviction, we 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.960 believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.800 create real change in the world, even beyond what these 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.479 real life legal superheroes do every day. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.760 In September nineteen ninety three, Herman Williams lived with his 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.560 ex wife Penny in an apartment in Lake County, Illinois. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.800 Even though he and Penny were divorced, they still had 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.479 a great relationship, sharing household duties and the care of 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.960 their two kids. Herman had joined the Navy as a 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.879 young man, and he planned to spend his entire career 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.000 in the armed forces. He was deployed to the Persian 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.200 Gulf and earned distinction for his service. By nineteen ninety three, 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.480 he was making plans to move to San Diego, California, 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.080 where he would join the crew of a Navy ship 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.360 and had back out to see Penny and the kids 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.000 would stay in the apartment in Illinois, but none of 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:14.720 these plans would materialize. On Sunday, September twenty sixth, Penny's 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.920 lifeless body was found floating in a pond. She'd been 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.800 missing for several days, with Herman frantically trying to find her. 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.560 The police decided early in their investigation that Herman had 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.920 to be responsible for Penny's death, and they only looked 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.040 for evidence to confirm that theory. In all their recorded 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.679 interviews with Herman, he denied killing Penny or knowing anything 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:43.240 about how she died. But weeks later, the detectives claimed 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:49.240 that Herman had confessed. With this fabricated confession and a 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.640 woefully underprepared defense team, Herman Williams was convicted of first 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.480 degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:15.959 This is wrongful Conviction. Hey guys, it's Laura and I writer, 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:17.880 and I am so honored to be guest hosting this 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.120 episode of Wrongful Conviction. I'm the co director of the 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.880 Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, and you might 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.600 recognize my voice from another series I co host on 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.800 this same podcast, feed False Confessions. Now, if you've listened 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.560 to False Confessions, you know that usually in these cases 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.480 we see police using coersive tactics that can pressure vulnerable 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.919 people into admitting to crimes they didn't commit. But Herman's 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.840 story is different. Herman was never forced to admit to 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:51.880 a crime. Instead, the police completely made up his confession, 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.920 a total lie. Herman, I am so pleased to have 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.560 you here today to talk about your story, and we're 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.560 also by your two rockstar attorneys. Could you introduce yourselves 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:04.240 for our audience. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.639 I'm Herman Williams. I did twenty nine years for a 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.679 crime I didn't commit, and I owe my life to 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.000 the Innosons Project. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.080 I'm Lauren Keasberg. I'm co director at the Illinois Innissonce Project. 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:16.679 Hi. 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.520 I'm Fanessa Potkin. I'm the director of Special Litigation at 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:21.600 the Innocence Project. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.800 So, Herman, I want to start out by asking you 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:29.000 to take us back to before all of this happens. 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:34.480 You grew up in Arizona and as a young man. 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.600 When I hear about your life, it seems to me 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.960 that there were two things, two big things in your 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.160 life for you as a young man. One was the 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:47.880 Navy and one was Penny. Can you tell us about 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:49.080 those two things? 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.960 You know, I was a typical teenage kid, I didn't 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.040 know what I wanted to do in life or anything. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.280 And I ended up joining the Navy mainly because the 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.640 first time I was the ocean, it was just awesome. 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.080 I just found my place. It was me, it was home. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.040 I had every intention of basically being in the Navy 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.120 until they told me I had to take my walker 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:21.800 and get out. Penny. She was still in my heart, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:27.120 a terrific woman, and how that day goes by, I 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:36.080 don't miss her. But yeah, you know, our biggest problem 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.280 was I was all Navy and she just wasn't made 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:45.040 to be a Navy wife. So we ended up divorcing, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.560 and as far as I believe, it was the best 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.719 thing that happened to our relationship. We got closer as 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:57.040 a divorced couple than we did when we were married. 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.880 It's hard to explain, but that's the way it was. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.440 And you, if I've got this right, you won some 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.640 recognition for your work in the Navy, didn't you. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.960 You know, when I was on active duty, I didn't 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.760 do it for the medals. I didn't do it for 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:17.360 the accommodations. You know, I was happy with a thank 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:23.080 you at a boy type stuff. But now you know, 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:27.159 I would like them to at least acknowledge my place 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.440 in the Navy, because I feel like they abandoned me 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.880 when all this took place. 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.400 Well, you're too modest to say that you're a decorated VET, 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:38.800 but I'm going to say it right now. I'm going 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:40.920 to say thank you for your service, and I am 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:42.920 going to say you deserve all the recognition in the 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.480 world for that service that you gave to our country. 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:46.279 Thank you. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.839 So while your young naval office, you, you are married 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.680 to Penny, you are having adventures in between deployments. You 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.600 guys are traveling, going to Hawaii, You're going to Mexico. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.960 You're living the life of a young married couple, and 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.600 you have two kids. Tell me about your kids. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.800 Hermon, when all this happened, Charlie was six and Crystal 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:10.039 was two. Charlie was awesome. You know, he was a 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:15.080 people pleaser, he likes to make people happy. And Crystal, 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:20.280 you know, she was a precocious, two handful daddy's little monster, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.800 however you want to label her. I mean, I admit 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.200 I had more focus on the Navy than I did 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.400 as me and a father. But while I was out, 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.719 I made sure that the kids needed for nothing, and 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.159 when Penny had came back to Illinois, it was kind 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.240 of cool because I was actually getting an opportunity to 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:43.400 know my kids. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.839 Yeah, so at one point you and Penny decide to 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.400 go separate ways. You move up to Illinois. You're stationed 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.240 at the Great Lakes Naval Base, which is just north 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.359 of Chicago, and despite the fact that you and Penny 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:02.880 aren't together, she ends up moving up to Illinois as well. 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:04.039 Tell me about that. 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.039 When Penny came up here, it's like, well, why don't 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.680 she just stay in the apartment and then she can 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.520 take the apartment over When I head back to see that, 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.920 I was fixing to go to San Diego. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.800 And tell me about that arrangement. How'd that work? 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.640 The kids had one bedroom that they were sharing and 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.400 Penny took the other bedroom, and I was sleeping on 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.920 the sofa bed and it was working out really fine. 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.480 So you're there in the Navy station at the Great 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.840 Lakes Naval Base September ninety three. Penny and the kids 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.680 are with you, And this is where I want to 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:44.800 bring in Lauren and Vanessa, your two rockstar attorneys, and 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.560 ask you to talk about the crime that happened that 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.560 is the reason that we're all here today talking about 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:56.119 this case. What happened to Penny around this time. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.280 So you know what's so interesting in this case is 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.040 that after presenting herman for a number of years, we 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:08.560 received a report from a forensic pathologist which actually sort 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.640 of flipped this whole case on its head. And the 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.440 true answer is, we don't know what happened to Penny. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.800 What we do know is that on Sunday, September twenty 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.680 sixth of nineteen ninety three, she was found in a 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.960 pond in Waukegan, in a very remote location. 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.080 She was deceased. 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.319 She had been beaten very severely with a blunt object. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.800 She was fully clothed, wearing a floral patterned blouse that 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.920 was a button up that was neatly tucked into jeans, 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.240 and she had been clearly attacked. There were defensive wounds 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.160 on her arms which showed that she fought for her life, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:56.760 and that discovery was made on that Sunday, And we. 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.240 Can get into all that in a minute. But this 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.800 is Penny in her late twenties. She's got two kids, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.360 she's got a life and a future ahead of her, 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:13.240 and she turns up dead in a pond in rural 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.920 Lake County, Illinois and an area that's pretty far off 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.400 the beaten path. Now, I want to talk for a 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:25.040 minute about Lake County, Illinois, which is where the naval 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.640 base was, which is where you were living, Hermon, and 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.200 which is where this happened to Penny. Lake County, Illinois 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.800 is known like Cook County, it's neighbor to the south 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:39.280 in Illinois, as unfortunately a hub for false confessions and 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.319 as we're going to hear in this case, fabricated confessions, 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.640 confessions it never even happened. But Lauren, can you tell 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:47.560 us a little bit more about your experience with Lake 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.000 County because it is really ground zero. You know, you 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:51.920 hear about these places where where it seems like time 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.079 runs backward. In Lake County, Illinois, it feels like justice 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.640 runs backward, right, like you're always pushing against these headwinds 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.240 that just want to deny that truth, want to deny DNA, 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.160 want to deny overwhelming evidence of innocence. Lauren, tell us 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:06.280 about your work in Lake County. 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.680 I remember in two thousand and I think it was 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:13.640 fourteen when we first evaluated Herman's case at the Illinois 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.160 Innocence Project, and seeing it on paper for the very 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.560 first time. I remember where I was sitting in the 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.520 room hearing about his case because I saw all the players, 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:25.600 I saw what the evidence was against him, and I 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.600 remember saying, hand me that paper, this is my case. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:31.760 This man is innocent. I can tell you right now 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.880 from who these people are and what they're claiming this 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.400 evidence is. There's going to be something to this case. 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.960 Mike Marmal himself is a character, this prosecutor who is 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.720 responsible for many years lost to innocent men in prison, 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:50.360 despite having evidence of their innocence. Just this callousness and 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:56.640 the lack of professionalism and morals and ethics is just unbelievable. 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.640 And for years, everyone that practiced in that county knew 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.200 exactly who he was, knew what his reputation was, and 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.240 allowed him to get away with these things. And Herman 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.640 is an unconscionable example of misconduct that has occurred in 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:11.199 that county. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.160 Blake County is a serial offender place. There's absolutely nothing 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.359 else we can say when it comes to wrongful convictions. 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:19.240 But I want to get back to our story here. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.000 Penny's found on Sunday, September twenty sixth, nineteen ninety three 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.040 in that pond in Waukegan, Illinois, and months before trial, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.880 the coroner's office gives a time of death estimate that 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.920 ranges from Wednesday into Friday. So the big question then 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.520 becomes who would do this? Now, we all know that 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.920 in cases like this, right, especially in the nineteen nineties, 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.760 spouses ex spouses always jumped to the top of the 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.400 suspect list. And so if we're looking at a timeline 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.280 of Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, one of the really big 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:53.520 questions in this case is herman and his alibi. So, Lauren, 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.920 can you walk us through what Herman was doing on 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:57.400 those days that Penny disappeared. 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.760 The night before Penny disappeared, which was Whyesday, September twenty second, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:07.000 Herman and Penny had gone out to go indially to 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.160 go to the movies, and they had a neighbor who 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.400 lived downstairs named Wayne and his wife, and they had 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.920 kids who were of the same age as Herman and Penny, 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.240 so kids, so the two families would sort of swap 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.320 childcare and help babysit each other's kids. So that Wednesday night, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.440 Herman and Penny had gone out to go to the 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.400 movies a variety of other things. After the movie had 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.720 already started and they missed the show. They come back 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.959 that Wednesday night together. Their neighbor sees Herman and Penny 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.120 together as he initially tells the police, and they pick 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:39.600 up their kids. They go upstairs. 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:40.480 They all go to bed. 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:46.200 Thursday morning, Herman wakes up early, as per usual being 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.480 a navy man and reporting to base, you know, in 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.360 the very early hours of the morning, gets up, sees 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:53.400 the Penny as there knows that Penny has the day 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.920 off of work that day, so she's kind of helping 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.720 get Charlie ready for school, who's their six year old son. 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.240 Herman takes their two year old daughter, drops her off 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.079 at the babysitter as he usually does on the way 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.359 to base, and goes to work for the day. Charlie, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:12.440 their six year old son, is taken downstairs to the 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.480 neighbor who is responsible for getting the kids to school 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.160 that morning. Right before they leave for school, the neighbor 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.520 sends Charlie back upstairs to say to find out who's 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.160 picking up the kids from school at the end of 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.400 the day, and Charlie comes back down after going back 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.599 up to his apartment and reports back, my mom's not 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.560 home anymore. She left with someone. She left in a 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.200 car with someone from work, and so it's like no 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.520 big deal. Everyone moves on with their day. The kids 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.319 go to school, Herman gets done with work that day. 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:45.000 On Thursday, picks up Chrystal from daycare, picks up the 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.920 other kids, and he's already He and Penny had arranged 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.079 to watch Wayne's kids on Thursday night, so he gets 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.640 Wayne's two children as well. So Herman is in tow 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.960 with these four kids, I think, all under the age 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.400 of six or seven, and sort of runs some errands 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.760 with them, stops at the mall, to the T shirt store, 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.760 and visits Kitty at the mall. And I think as 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.439 the day goes on on Thursday, there's some sort of 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.880 lingering question of you know, where's Penny. Why isn't Penny calling? 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:14.880 You know, she had the day off today, she knows 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.040 we're watching the kids. You know where's Penny. But no 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.640 worry yet, right, It's just sort of the days going on. 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:25.320 It's just a little strange. Herman is increasingly anxious and 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.920 nervous about where Penny is. Doesn't know what to do. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.640 This is an era before cell phones before being able 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.520 to reach people. So what do you do in that situation? 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.680 So Herman, when Wayne, his neighbor, gets home, takes Wayne's 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:42.160 kids back downstairs to him and says to Wayne, you know, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:43.600 what do you think I should do? I'm worried. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.400 Penny never came home. It's not like her. 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.920 She hasn't called. So Herman uses Wayne's phone on Thursday 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.200 night to call the Gurney Police Department to inquire what 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.960 he should do and say, I'm worried, and he's told 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.880 at that time it hasn't quite been twenty four hours. 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.800 Usually these situations resolve themselves, you know, give it till 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.640 the morning and give us a call tomorrow if she 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.920 still isn't home. This is a case where if this 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.600 murder didn't happen on Wednesday night, it's impossible for Herman 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.960 to have committed it. You know, once we get a 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.040 little further down the line in this case, the state 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.160 realizes this is a problem for them and they have 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.600 to isolate it on that Wednesday night because Herman is 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.440 accounted for at every moment moving forward. 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.120 That's right. It's one of the most thorough alibis I 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.560 have ever seen. Herman is there. He's at work, right, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.640 he's on the base. He's there with four kids in tow. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.200 The neighbors see him. Everybody in this community sees you, Herman, 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.120 right at this time that the coroner has already said, 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.720 this is happening to Penny. You're accounted for on Wednesday night, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.480 you're accounted for on Thursday. You're counted for on Friday, 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:49.000 and that's when you get this note, this notification that 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:55.320 Penny's purse has been found. What goes through your head 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.280 on that Friday morning. She's been missing since you came 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.520 home from work the pre day, and then you find 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.440 out that her purse has been found. What goes through 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:05.840 your head? 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.800 To say I freaked out was putting it mildly because 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.320 no Penny had stayed out, but she had never stayed 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.680 out all night without calling. So I was already anxious 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.960 from that because you know, that was kind of our written, 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.120 unwritten agreement. So then I go to a Great Lakes 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.280 Police department and I get her purse. You know, I 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.880 didn't know what to make of anything, so Gurnie asked 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.280 me to come in, and at first everything seemed fine 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.320 and nanty, but then all of a sudden it went 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.600 from investigation to adversarial. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.960 So this is on Friday. Her purse has been found, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.920 but no one knows what's happened to her yet she's 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.480 still missing. And so you go into the police departments 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.960 and tell me about it turning adversarial. What happened to 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:00.560 you in there? 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.440 Well, at first, you know, they were trying to get 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:09.440 timelines and find out what was going on, and then 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.800 all of a sudden it went straight to accusation. What'd 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.080 you do with her? They start bringing in two or 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:21.480 three officers at a time, and during the entire interrogation 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.200 they're video taping it, and they got a cassette player 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.680 on the table and they're taking cassette recordings. Even though 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.480 it turned adversero, I'm still doing my best to be 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.720 as helpful as I know how to be. They started 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.399 asking me questions and then turning those questions into me 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.280 making these comments, which was, you know, completely off the wall. 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.000 And then finally I had enough of it and I said, 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.439 this isn't solving anything. We're not finding Penny, we're not 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.520 knowing what's going on. I said, I'm going to go, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.080 and they told me I couldn't go. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:02.920 So they've got you and the Gurney police departments, and 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.280 they're asking you these questions. Right, you're saying, this is 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.760 turning accusational really really fast. They take your car. You 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.040 actually have to walk home from the police station that Friday. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.959 What's going through your mind at this time? Still Penny's 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.680 not been found. You've spent all day at the police station. 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.720 They're acting like you're a suspect. You just want to 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:22.760 find your ex wife. 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:28.080 Right, I'm thinking it's time for them to get out 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:32.200 there and start trying to, you know, shake the brushes 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:37.199 and investigate. But instead they're just busy focusing on me. 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:43.119 And I didn't understand why. You know, it's like the 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.720 stuff on TV. It's a cash twenty two. If you 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.880 try to help the cops, then you're trying to trick them. 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.240 And if you don't help the cops, then you're being 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.399 evasive and you must be guilty of something you can't 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:57.159 win for losing. 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.280 So this is going on Friday. You're being questioned, they 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:21.280 get your car, they take your kids, Charlie and Crystal, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:26.159 they're in your apartment. This is going on Friday, Saturday, 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.919 and then Sunday. Right that Sunday is when they find 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.760 Penny in that pond. How'd you react knowing that this 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.400 is what happened to the mother of your kids. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.840 I found out about it when a newspaper reporter called 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.120 me to ask me about it. The police didn't even 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.920 have the courtesy to tell me, and I didn't when 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.840 they said found Penny. It didn't occur to me that 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.479 she was killed, you know, and on my way if 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.919 you found her, how come she hasn't you know, been 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.000 in contact with me? And said, oh no, they found her. 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:09.359 She was dead. And I hung up the phone and 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.600 I went downstairs to the police that were parked out 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.480 in the parking lot, and I was like, why didn't 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.840 you tell me? They told me it was none of 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:26.240 my business, and I snapped. And I'm an alcoholic and 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.960 at that time I had about two years of sobriety 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:34.720 and I fell off the wagon. I turned to the 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:41.000 bottle because I didn't know what else to do, and 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.119 that's when I ended up calling the Great Legs Hospital 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.040 because I didn't know where else to turn. I tried 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.080 to call a sponsor that I had, but he wasn't available, 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.439 and I knew I was on a bad I was 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:00.480 in a bad way. So I called the hospital and 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.639 they put me in the hospital for a few days, 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:07.720 basically to monitoring and keep me away from drinking, which 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.520 I was thankful for that because it just it became 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:12.200 too much. 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.679 It's a lot, way too much to ask anyone to 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:21.200 deal with. I mean, this is life falling apart over 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.560 the course of a couple of days, right, and it 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.719 unfortunately does not stop after those a few days. You 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.840 are brought back in for another round of questioning. Four 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.359 days after Penny was found dead. 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.680 Every day I was in the hospital, they were coming 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:43.159 and questioning me, and I kept telling them, you have 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.080 you talked to Beauchet who was my attorney at the time, 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.720 and I had him under a retainer. They were asking 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:52.919 me questions and I kept telling them I'm not going 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.600 to talk without a lawyer. And they did the same 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.000 thing that they did at Guarannee. They kept bringing in 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:04.160 two or three investigators wanting to me to answer questions, 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.240 and I answered everything I want my attorney. And the 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.520 thing is, the whole time I'm handcuffed to I it's 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:14.879 bolted to the chair on a chair that's bolted to 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:20.160 the ground. And that's why the whole story about Testman 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.080 coming in and we drinking coffee and we being the 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.760 best buddies is completely bs. 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.000 All right, So let me take a step in here, 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.040 because you just said a pretty important name. One of 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:37.000 the interrogators who questioned you was a detective who at 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.040 the time was the deputy commander of the Lake County 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:48.560 Major Crimes Task Force, a detective named lou Tessaman. And unfortunately, 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:51.520 that is a name that is really well known to 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.000 those of us who've been doing wrongful conviction work in 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.439 Lake County, Vanessa. Can you step in here and tell 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.719 us a little bit about Detective Testament's history. 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:05.800 Well, Detective Testament, he has publicly said that he was 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:12.040 involved in obtaining confession statements in I believe, around eighty 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.199 homicide cases throughout his career. 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.560 It's a pretty significant number. 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.280 And what's even more significant is that we know to 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:27.200 a certainty that at least three of those individuals, if. 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:29.320 Not more, were actually innocent. 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.480 And so if there are three cases that we know 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:36.240 about of the eighty cases that Testament is touting that 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:40.760 he obtained confessions in homicide cases, how many other of 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.119 those seventy seven people also are. 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.840 Like Herman Williams and actually innocent. 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:50.879 So you're in that interrogation room with Detective Testament, with 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.000 other detectives from the Late County Major Crimes Task Force, 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:57.960 and at the end of that interrogation they walk out 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:05.639