Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flom, host of Rawful Conviction, but this week,
Speaker 1: instead of hearing me, I've invited a legitimate genius from
Speaker 1: the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to
Speaker 1: the conversation as guest host Here at Rawful Conviction, we
Speaker 1: believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can
Speaker 1: create real change in the world, even beyond with these
Speaker 1: real life legal superheroes to every day. In September, Herman
Speaker 1: Williams lived with his ex wife Penny in an apartment
Speaker 1: in Lake County, Illinois. Even though he and Penny were divorced,
Speaker 1: they still had a great relationship, sharing household duties and
Speaker 1: the care of their two kids. Herman had joined the
Speaker 1: Navy as a young man, and he planned to spend
Speaker 1: his entire career in the armed Forces. He was deployed
Speaker 1: to the Persian Gulf and earned distinction for his service.
Speaker 1: By he was making plans to move to San Diego, California,
Speaker 1: or he would join the crew of a Navy ship
Speaker 1: and head back out to see Penny and the kids
Speaker 1: would stay in the apartment in Illinois, but none of
Speaker 1: these plans would materialize. On Sunday, September twenty six, Penny's
Speaker 1: lifeless body was found floating in a pond. She'd been
Speaker 1: missing for several days, with Herman frantically trying to find her.
Speaker 1: The police decided early in their investigation that Herman had
Speaker 1: to be responsible for Penny's death, and they only looked
Speaker 1: for evidence to confirm that theory. In all their recorded
Speaker 1: interviews with Herman, he denied killing Penny or knowing anything
Speaker 1: about how she died. But weeks later, the detectives claimed
Speaker 1: that Herman had confessed. With this fabricated confession and a
Speaker 1: woefully under prepared defense team, Herman Williams was convicted of
Speaker 1: first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Speaker 1: This is wrongful Conviction. Hey guys, it's Laura and I writer,
Speaker 1: and I am so honored to be guest hosting this
Speaker 1: episode of Wrongful Conviction. I'm the co director of the
Speaker 1: Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, and you might
Speaker 1: recognize my voice from another series I co host on
Speaker 1: this same podcast, feed False Confessions. Now, if you've listened
Speaker 1: to False Confessions, you know that usually in these cases
Speaker 1: we see police using coersive tactics that can pressure vulnerable
Speaker 1: people into admitting to crimes they didn't commit. But Herman's
Speaker 1: story is different. Herman was never forced to admit to
Speaker 1: a crime. Instead, the police completely made up his confession,
Speaker 1: a total lie. Herman, I am so pleased to have
Speaker 1: you here today to talk about your story, and we're
Speaker 1: also by your two rock star attorneys. Could you introduce
Speaker 1: yourselves for our audience. I'm Herman Williams. I did twenty
Speaker 1: nine years for crime I didn't commit, and I own
Speaker 1: my life, did the Innocence Project. I'm Lauren Caseberg. I'm
Speaker 1: co director at the Illinois Inniscence Project. Hi. I'm Vanessa Potkin.
Speaker 1: I'm the director of Special Litigation at the Innocence Project. So, Herman,
Speaker 1: I want to start out by asking you to take
Speaker 1: us back two before all of this happened. You grew
Speaker 1: up in Arizona and as a young man. When I
Speaker 1: hear about your life, it seems to me that there
Speaker 1: were two things, two big things in your life for
Speaker 1: you as a young man. One was the Navy and
Speaker 1: one was Penny. Can you tell us about those two things?
Speaker 1: You know, I was typical teenage kid. I didn't know
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do in life or anything, and
Speaker 1: I ended up joining the Navy, mainly mainly because the
Speaker 1: first time I was the ocean, it was just awesome.
Speaker 1: I just found my place. It was me, it was home.
Speaker 1: I had every intention of basically being in the Navy
Speaker 1: until they told me I had to take my walker
Speaker 1: and get out. Uh. Penny, she was and still in
Speaker 1: my heart, a terrific woman. And how did day goes by?
Speaker 1: I don't miss her? Yeah, you know, our biggest problem
Speaker 1: was I was all Navy and she just wasn't made
Speaker 1: to be a Navy wife. So we ended up divorcing,
Speaker 1: and as far as I believe, it was the best
Speaker 1: thing that happened to our relationship. We got closer as
Speaker 1: a divorced couple then we did when we were married.
Speaker 1: It's hard to explain, but that's the way it was.
Speaker 1: And you, if I've got this right, you want some
Speaker 1: recognition for your work in the Navy, didn't you? You know,
Speaker 1: when I was on active duty, I didn't do it
Speaker 1: for the medals. I didn't do it for the accommodations.
Speaker 1: You know, I was happy with a thank you at
Speaker 1: a boy type stuff. But now you know, I would
Speaker 1: like them to at least acknowledge my my place in
Speaker 1: the Navy because I feel like they abandoned me when
Speaker 1: all this took place. Well, you're too modest to say
Speaker 1: that you're a decorated VET, but I'm going to say
Speaker 1: it right now. I'm gonna say thank you for your service,
Speaker 1: and I am going to say you deserve all the
Speaker 1: recognition in the world for that service that you gave
Speaker 1: to our country. Thank you. So while your young naval office,
Speaker 1: you're you're married to Penny, you are having adventures in
Speaker 1: between deployments. You guys are traveling, going to Hawaii, You're
Speaker 1: going to Mexico. You're living the life of a young
Speaker 1: married couple, and you have two kids. Tell me about
Speaker 1: your kids when all this happened. Charlie was six and
Speaker 1: Crystal was to Charlie was awesome. You know, he was
Speaker 1: a people pleader. He likes to make people happy. And Crystal,
Speaker 1: you know, she was a precocious, too handful. Daddy's a
Speaker 1: little monster, however you want to label her. I mean,
Speaker 1: I admit I had more focus on the Navy than
Speaker 1: I did as me and a father. But why I
Speaker 1: was out. I made sure that the kids needed for nothing.
Speaker 1: And when Penny had came back to Illinois. It was
Speaker 1: kind of cool because I was actually getting an opportunity
Speaker 1: to know my kids. Yeah, so at one point you
Speaker 1: and Penny decided to go separate ways. You move up
Speaker 1: to Illinois. You're stationed at the Great Lakes Naval Base,
Speaker 1: which is just north of Chicago, and despite the fact
Speaker 1: that you and Penny aren't together, she ends up moving
Speaker 1: up to Illinois as well. Tell me about that. When
Speaker 1: Penny came up here, was like, well, why don't she
Speaker 1: just stay in the apartment and then she can take
Speaker 1: the apartment over. When I head back to see that,
Speaker 1: I was fixing to go to San Diego and tell me.
Speaker 1: Tell me about that arrangement. How is how did that work?
Speaker 1: The kids had in one bedroom that they were sharing,
Speaker 1: and Penny took the other bedroom, and I was sleeping
Speaker 1: on the sofa bed and it was working out really fine.
Speaker 1: So you you're there in the Navy station at the
Speaker 1: Great Lakes Naval Base September, and the kids are with you.
Speaker 1: And this is where I want to bring in Lauren
Speaker 1: and Vanessa, your two rock star attorneys, and ask you
Speaker 1: to talk about the crime that happened. That is the
Speaker 1: reason that we're all here today talking about this case, Um,
Speaker 1: what happened to Penny around this time? So you know
Speaker 1: it's so interesting in this case is that after presenting
Speaker 1: herman for a number of years, we received a report
Speaker 1: from a forensic pathologist which actually sort of flipped this
Speaker 1: whole case on its head. And the true answer is,
Speaker 1: we don't know what happened to Penny. What we do
Speaker 1: know is that on Sunday, September, she was found in
Speaker 1: a pond in woauk Agin, in a very remote location.
Speaker 1: She was deceased. She had been beaten very severely with
Speaker 1: a blunt object. She was fully clothed, wearing a floral
Speaker 1: patterned blouse that was a button up that was neatly
Speaker 1: tucked into jeans, and she had been clearly attacked. There
Speaker 1: were defensive wounds on her arms which showed that she
Speaker 1: fought for her life, and that discovery was made on
Speaker 1: that Sunday. And we can get into all that in
Speaker 1: a minute. But this is Penny. She is in her
Speaker 1: late twenties, she's got two kids, she's got a life
Speaker 1: and a future ahead of her, and she turns up
Speaker 1: dead in a pond in rural Lake County, Illinois, in
Speaker 1: an area that's pretty far off the beaten path. Now,
Speaker 1: I want to talk for a minute about Lake County, Illinois,
Speaker 1: which is where the naval base was, which is where
Speaker 1: you were living, Herman, and which is where this happened
Speaker 1: to Penny. La County, Illinois is known um like Cook County,
Speaker 1: it's neighbor to the south, and Illinois as unfortunately a
Speaker 1: hub for false confessions and as we're gonna hear in
Speaker 1: this case, fabricated confessions, confessions that never even happened. But Lauren,
Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit more about your
Speaker 1: experience with Lake County because it is really ground zero.
Speaker 1: You know, you hear about these places where it seems
Speaker 1: like time runs backward. In Lake County, Illinois, it feels
Speaker 1: like justice runs backward, right, like you're always pushing against
Speaker 1: these headwinds that just want to deny the truth, want
Speaker 1: to deny DNA, want to deny overwhelming evidence of innocence. Lauren,
Speaker 1: tell us about your work in Lake County. I remember
Speaker 1: in two thousand, I think it was fourteen, when we
Speaker 1: first evaluated Herman's case at the Illinois Innocence Project and
Speaker 1: seeing it on paper for the very first time. I
Speaker 1: remember where I was sitting in the room hearing about
Speaker 1: his case, because I saw the players, I saw what
Speaker 1: the evidence was against him, and I remember saying, hand
Speaker 1: me that paper, this is my case. This man is innocent.
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now from who these people
Speaker 1: are and what they're claiming this evidence is. There's going
Speaker 1: to be something to this case. Mike Marmal himself is
Speaker 1: a character, this prosecutor who is responsible for many years
Speaker 1: lost to innocent men in prison despite having evidence of
Speaker 1: their innocence. Just this callousness and the lack of of
Speaker 1: professionalism and morals and ethics is just unbelievable. And for years,
Speaker 1: everyone that practiced in that county knew exactly who he was,
Speaker 1: knew what his reputation was, and allowed him to get
Speaker 1: away with these things. And Herman is an unconscionable example
Speaker 1: of misconduct that has occurred in that county. Lake County
Speaker 1: is a serial offender place. There's absolutely nothing else we
Speaker 1: can say when it comes to wrongful convictions. But I
Speaker 1: want to get back to our story here. Um Penny's
Speaker 1: found on Sunday, September in that pond in Waukegan, Illinois,
Speaker 1: and months before trial, the coroner's office gives a time
Speaker 1: of death estimate that ranges from Wednesday into Friday. So
Speaker 1: the big question then becomes who would do this? Now,
Speaker 1: we all know that in cases like this, right, especially
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties, spouses ex spouses always jumped to
Speaker 1: the top of the suspect list, And so if we're
Speaker 1: looking at a timeline of Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, one
Speaker 1: of the really big questions in this case is herman
Speaker 1: and his alibi. So, Lauren, can you walk us through
Speaker 1: what Herman was doing on those days that Penny disappeared.
Speaker 1: The night before Penny disappeared, which was why and stay
Speaker 1: September two, Herman and Penny had gone out to go
Speaker 1: initially to go to the movies, and they had a
Speaker 1: neighbor who lived downstairs named Wayne and his wife, and
Speaker 1: they had kids who were of the same age as
Speaker 1: Herman and Pennies two kids, so the two families would
Speaker 1: sort of swap childcare and help babysit each other's kids.
Speaker 1: So that Wednesday night, Herman and Penny had gone out
Speaker 1: to go to the movies a variety of other things
Speaker 1: after the movie had already started and they missed the show.
Speaker 1: Um they come back that Wednesday night together. Their neighbor
Speaker 1: sees Herman and Penny together as he initially tells the police,
Speaker 1: and they pick up their kids. They go upstairs, they
Speaker 1: all go to bed. Thursday morning, Herman wakes up early,
Speaker 1: as per usual, being a navy man and reporting to base,
Speaker 1: you know, in the very early hours of the morning,
Speaker 1: gets up, sees the Penny is there. Knows that Penny
Speaker 1: has the day off of work that day, so she's
Speaker 1: kind of helping get Charlie ready for school, who's their
Speaker 1: six year old son. Herman takes their two year old daughter,
Speaker 1: drops her off at the babysitter as he usually does
Speaker 1: on the way to base, and goes to work for
Speaker 1: the day. Charlie, their six year old son, um is
Speaker 1: taken downstairs to the neighbor who is responsible for getting
Speaker 1: the kids to school that morning. Right before they leave
Speaker 1: for school, the neighbor sends Charlie back upstairs to say
Speaker 1: to find out if who's picking up the kids from
Speaker 1: school at the end of the day, and Charlie comes
Speaker 1: back down after going back up to his apartment and
Speaker 1: reports back, my mom's not home anymore. She left with someone.
Speaker 1: She left in a car with someone from work, and
Speaker 1: so It's like, no big deal. Everyone moves on with
Speaker 1: their day. The kids go to school, Herman gets done
Speaker 1: with work that day. On Thursday, picks up Crystal from daycare,
Speaker 1: picks up the other kids, and he's already He and
Speaker 1: Penny had arranged to watch Wayne's kids on Thursday night,
Speaker 1: so he gets Wayne's two children as well. So Herman
Speaker 1: is into with these four kids, I think, all under
Speaker 1: the age of six or seven, and sort of runs
Speaker 1: some errands with them, stops at the mall, to the
Speaker 1: T shirt store, and visits Kitty at the mall, and
Speaker 1: I think as the day goes on on Thursday, there's
Speaker 1: some sort of lingering question of you know, where's Penny.
Speaker 1: Why isn't Penny calling? You know, she had the day
Speaker 1: off today, she knows we're watching the kids. You know
Speaker 1: where's Penny? But no worry yet, right, It's just sort
Speaker 1: of the days going on. It's just a little strange.
Speaker 1: Herman is increasingly anxious and nervous about where Penny is.
Speaker 1: Doesn't know what to do. This is an era before
Speaker 1: cell phones, before being able to reach people, So what
Speaker 1: do you do in that situation? So Herman, when Wayne,
Speaker 1: his neighbor, gets home, takes Wayne's kids back downstairs to
Speaker 1: him and says to Wayne, you know, what do you
Speaker 1: think I should do? I'm worried. Penny never came home.
Speaker 1: It's not like her. She hasn't called. So Herman uses
Speaker 1: Wayne's phone on Thursday night to call the Granny Police
Speaker 1: department to inquire what he should do and say, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm worried, and he's told at that time it hasn't
Speaker 1: quite been twenty four hours. Usually these situations resolved themselves,
Speaker 1: you know, give it until the morning and give us
Speaker 1: a call tomorrow if she still lives at home. This
Speaker 1: is a case where if this murder didn't happen on
Speaker 1: Wednesday night, it's impossible for herman who have committed it.
Speaker 1: You know, once we get a little further down the line.
Speaker 1: In this case, the state realizes this is a problem
Speaker 1: for them and they have to isolate it on that
Speaker 1: Wednesday night because Herman is accounted for at every moment
Speaker 1: moving forward. That's right. It's one of the most thorough
Speaker 1: alibis I have ever seen. Herman is there, he's at work, right,
Speaker 1: he's on the base. He's there with four kids in
Speaker 1: tow The neighbors see him everybody in this community sees
Speaker 1: you herman right at this time that the coroner has
Speaker 1: already said, this is happening to Penny. Um, you're accounted
Speaker 1: for on Wednesday night, you're accounted for on Thursday, You're
Speaker 1: accounted for on Friday, and that's when you get this note,
Speaker 1: this notification that Penny's purse has been found. What goes
Speaker 1: through your head on that Friday morning, she's been missing
Speaker 1: since you came home from work. The if you stay
Speaker 1: and then you find out that her purse has been found,
Speaker 1: what goes through your head? To say I freaked out
Speaker 1: was putting it mildly because no Penny had stayed out,
Speaker 1: but she had never stayed out all night without calling.
Speaker 1: So I was already anxious from that because you know
Speaker 1: that that was kind of our written, unwritten agreement. So
Speaker 1: then I go to the Great Lakes Police Department and
Speaker 1: I get her purse. You know, I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to make of anything, so you're need to ask me
Speaker 1: to come in. And at first everything seemed fine and nanty,
Speaker 1: but then all of a sudden it went from investigation
Speaker 1: to adversary. So this is on Friday, her purse has
Speaker 1: been found, but no one knows what's happened to her,
Speaker 1: yet she's still missing. And so you go into the
Speaker 1: police departments and tell me about it turning adversarial. What
Speaker 1: happened you in there? Uh? At first, you know, they
Speaker 1: were trying to get timelines and find out what was
Speaker 1: going on, and then all of a sudden, it went
Speaker 1: straight to accusation. What do you do with her? They
Speaker 1: started bringing in two or three officers at a time,
Speaker 1: and during the entire interrogation their videotaping it, and they
Speaker 1: got a cassette player on the table and they're taking
Speaker 1: cassette recordings. Even though it turned adversary, I'm still doing
Speaker 1: my best to be as helpful as I know how
Speaker 1: to be. They started asking me questions and then turning
Speaker 1: those questions into me making these comments, which was, you know,
Speaker 1: completely off the wall. And then finally I had enough
Speaker 1: of it and I said this, this isn't solving anything.
Speaker 1: We're not finding Penny, we're not knowing what's going on.
Speaker 1: I said, I'm gonna go, and they told me I
Speaker 1: couldn't go. So they've got you in the Gurney police
Speaker 1: departments and they're asking you these questions. Right, you're saying
Speaker 1: This is turning accusation a really really fast. They take
Speaker 1: your car. You actually have to walk home from the
Speaker 1: police station that Friday. What's going through your mind at
Speaker 1: this time, still Pennies not been found. You've spent all
Speaker 1: day at the police station. They're acting like you're a suspect.
Speaker 1: You just want to find your ex wife. Right, I'm
Speaker 1: thinking it's time for them to to get out there
Speaker 1: and start trying to, you know, shake the brushes and investigate.
Speaker 1: But instead they're just busy focusing on me. And I
Speaker 1: didn't understand why. You know, it's it's it's like the
Speaker 1: stuff on TV. It's it's a cash twenty two. If
Speaker 1: you try to help the cops, then you're then you're
Speaker 1: trying to trick them. And if you don't help the cops,
Speaker 1: then you're being evasive and you must be guilty of
Speaker 1: something you can't win for losing. So this is going
Speaker 1: on Friday. You're being questioned that get your car, they
Speaker 1: take your kids, Charlie and Crystal. They're in your apartment.
Speaker 1: This is going on Friday, Saturday, and then Sunday. Right
Speaker 1: that Sunday is when they find Penny in that pond.
Speaker 1: How did you react to knowing that this, this is
Speaker 1: what happened to the mother of your kids. I found
Speaker 1: out about it when a newspaper reporter called me to
Speaker 1: ask me about it. The police didn't even have the
Speaker 1: courtesy to tell me, and I didn't when they said
Speaker 1: found Penny, it didn't occur to me that she was killed,
Speaker 1: you know, and on my way if you found her,
Speaker 1: how come she hasn't been in contact with me, And said,
Speaker 1: don't know. They found her, she was dead. And I
Speaker 1: hung up the phone and I went downstairs to the
Speaker 1: police that were parked out in the parking lot, and
Speaker 1: I was like, why didn't you tell me? They told
Speaker 1: me it was none of my business. And I snapped
Speaker 1: and I'm an alcoholic and at that time I had
Speaker 1: about two years of sobriety and I I fell off
Speaker 1: the wagon. I turned to the bottle because I didn't
Speaker 1: know what else to do, and that's when I ended
Speaker 1: up calling the Lex hospital because I didn't know where
Speaker 1: else to turn. I tried to call a sponsor that
Speaker 1: I had, but he wasn't available, and I knew I
Speaker 1: was on a bad I was in a bad way,
Speaker 1: so I called hospital it all and they put me
Speaker 1: in the hospital for a few days, basically to monitoring
Speaker 1: and keep me away from drinking, which I was thankful
Speaker 1: for that because it just it became too much. It's
Speaker 1: a lot, way too much to ask anyone to deal with.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is life falling apart over the course
Speaker 1: of a couple of days, right, and it's unfortunately does
Speaker 1: not stop. After that was a few days, you are
Speaker 1: brought back in for another round of questioning four days
Speaker 1: after Penny was found dead. Every day I was in
Speaker 1: the hospital, they were coming and questioning me, and I
Speaker 1: kept telling them, have you have you talked to Beauchet
Speaker 1: who was my attorney at the time, and I had
Speaker 1: him under a retainer. They were asking me questions and
Speaker 1: I kept telling him I'm not going to talk without
Speaker 1: a lawyer. And they did the same thing that they
Speaker 1: did at Gurney. They kept bringing in two or three
Speaker 1: investigators wanting to me to answerr questions, and I answered
Speaker 1: everything I want my attorney. And the thing is, the
Speaker 1: whole time, I'm handcuffed to eye bolt that's bolted to
Speaker 1: the chair, on a chair that's bolted to the ground.
Speaker 1: And that's why the whole story about testman coming in
Speaker 1: and were drinking coffee and we being the best buddies
Speaker 1: is completely bs. Al right, So let me let me
Speaker 1: take a step in here, because you just had a
Speaker 1: pretty important name. One of the interrogators who questioned you
Speaker 1: was a detective who at the time with the deputy
Speaker 1: Commander of the Lake County Major Crimes Task Force, a
Speaker 1: detective named Leu Testman. And unfortunately, that is a name
Speaker 1: that is really well known to those of us who
Speaker 1: have been doing wrongful conviction work in Lake County, Vanessa,
Speaker 1: Can you step in here and tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about Detective Testament's history. Well, Detective Testament, he has
Speaker 1: publicly said that he was involved in obtaining confession statements
Speaker 1: and I believe around eighty homicide cases throughout his career.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty significant number. And what's even more significant
Speaker 1: is that we know to a certainty that at least
Speaker 1: three of those individuals, if not more, we're actually innocent.
Speaker 1: And so if there are three cases that we know
Speaker 1: about of the eight cases that Testament is touting that
Speaker 1: he obtained confessions in in homicide cases, how many other
Speaker 1: of those? You know? Seventy seven people also are like
Speaker 1: Herman Williams and and actually innocent. So you're in that
Speaker 1: interrogation room with detective Testament, with other detectives from the
Speaker 1: Lake County Major Crimes Task Force, and at the end
Speaker 1: of that interrogation they walk out of that room and
Speaker 1: turns out they start telling people that you had confessed
Speaker 1: to killing Penny Herman. Did you confess to killing your wife? No,
Speaker 1: Man never did, never even said anything in my opinion,
Speaker 1: that would make them think that. We're used to on
Speaker 1: this podcast, on the False Confessions podcast that I host,
Speaker 1: were used to stories of people who are coerced into
Speaker 1: confessing to crimes that they didn't commit, who are pressured
Speaker 1: during interrogation into saying things that are just not true.
Speaker 1: But this is different, right, This is different because this
Speaker 1: is a fabricated confession. They're saying you confessed, but you
Speaker 1: never did so. At the heart of this case, from
Speaker 1: the very beginning is a lie. And and Vanessa, can
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about the statements that
Speaker 1: the police and prosecutors were making in the press about
Speaker 1: whether Herman had confessed right after this interrogation, Which just
Speaker 1: so astounding is that there was no video recording of
Speaker 1: this interrogation. There was no audio recording in fact, Luke
Speaker 1: Tessaman didn't even make any notes of what Herman purportedly
Speaker 1: said until two weeks later. There's a report that says
Speaker 1: that Herman purportedly confessed during this custodial interrogation. How do
Speaker 1: you write up a report two weeks later without having
Speaker 1: any contemporaneous notes or audio or visual um, you know,
Speaker 1: recording of what happened. How do you remember what questions
Speaker 1: you asked Herman? How do you remember verbatim his answers.
Speaker 1: It's just impossible. But yet this is what Tessaman put forward.
Speaker 1: I want to move ahead to the trial right The
Speaker 1: trial happens in in February. We've got lead prosecutor Mike Murmel,
Speaker 1: who you've who you've talked about, and Herman, you're in
Speaker 1: the fight, fight for your life. If you're convicted, you
Speaker 1: get sentenced to life in prison, and that's what you're racing.
Speaker 1: Tell us, please, Lauren and Vanessa, tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about the evidence that the state brought forward against Herman,
Speaker 1: and maybe tell us a little bit about how the
Speaker 1: investigation and its results were changed by the state to
Speaker 1: fit its theory of Herman's guilt. Sure, so the state
Speaker 1: prosecuted Herman on this theory that he had a motive
Speaker 1: to kill Penny because he wanted to bring his children
Speaker 1: to San Diego with him, despite the fact, as he said,
Speaker 1: he was you know, boarding a ship, and that wasn't
Speaker 1: even possible. The state had to somehow fit this murder
Speaker 1: into Wednesday night, because if it didn't happen Wednesday night,
Speaker 1: Herman could not have committed the crime. So what they
Speaker 1: did was they used Herman's alleged confession, which was testimony
Speaker 1: put on by detective Testament. They introduced some blood evidence
Speaker 1: where they did prology so blood typing of some miniscule
Speaker 1: amounts of blood that they found, including on the inside
Speaker 1: of Herman's pickup truck. And they also introduced testimony from
Speaker 1: the medical examiner about a very precise time of death
Speaker 1: with a window of just about five hours on Wednesday night.
Speaker 1: That um they presented to the juries when Penny with
Speaker 1: you know, reasonable degree of scientific and medical certainty that
Speaker 1: Penny died within the short window of time on Wednesday
Speaker 1: night when they were together. Now, hang on, Lauren, because
Speaker 1: I remember that in the coroner's inquest months before trial,
Speaker 1: they gave a range of dates from Wednesday night into
Speaker 1: Friday morning, and now they're changing that. They're saying that
Speaker 1: Penny had to have died on Wednesday night. What happened here?
Speaker 1: So initially, you know, there's a coroner's inquest at took
Speaker 1: place in November, and at that time in November, the
Speaker 1: deputy coroner testified to the inquest that the time of
Speaker 1: death was sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday. And you know,
Speaker 1: that was really significant because for herman's defense attorney, knowing
Speaker 1: what they knew then, which is that Charlie, their six
Speaker 1: year old son, had told the police that he saw
Speaker 1: his mother Thursday morning. He remembered her pouring cereal for him.
Speaker 1: Knowing that the n downstairs neighbor initially told police that
Speaker 1: Penny came home Wednesday night, the defense theory was locked
Speaker 1: in on Penny having left Thursday morning and being murdered
Speaker 1: sometime Thursday, based on everything they knew at the time.
Speaker 1: Right before the medical examiner, Dr Nancy Jones testified before
Speaker 1: the jury, Mike Murmel, as prosecutor, tells the judge over
Speaker 1: the lunch hour, we showed Dr Jones the video of
Speaker 1: Penny's body being pulled from the water and her testimony today,
Speaker 1: and he even kind of sarcastically puts a dig in
Speaker 1: at the defense lawyer and says, you know, as much
Speaker 1: as the defense wants us to have happened sometime Thursday,
Speaker 1: the doctor Jones is going to get up here and
Speaker 1: tell this jury the based on what she sees in
Speaker 1: this video and based on everything she saw an autopsy,
Speaker 1: Penny died between eight pm and midnight to one am
Speaker 1: at the latest on Wednesday night. Now, this is what
Speaker 1: they're throwing at you, Herman, and you're in a fight
Speaker 1: for your life, and you decided to testify in your
Speaker 1: own defense. Tell me what that was like to get
Speaker 1: up and tell the world right, I'm Herman Williams. I
Speaker 1: did not do this. I would have felt better if
Speaker 1: they had letting me speak and say my piece, as
Speaker 1: opposed to answering yes or no questions. And most of
Speaker 1: the if you read the transcript, most of the questions
Speaker 1: were loaded questions. But I'm being told that all I
Speaker 1: can do is answer yes or no. It overwhelmed me.
Speaker 1: But all I could do is get up there until
Speaker 1: the truth is I knew it. Can I jump in
Speaker 1: and say something, Laura? Of course, so the entire time
Speaker 1: that Herman is being interrogated by the police rior to
Speaker 1: the trial, prior to his arrest. He's giving them as
Speaker 1: much information as you can, trying to be helpful to
Speaker 1: find Penny at first, and the police are running down
Speaker 1: certain leads, but they are literally only trying to build
Speaker 1: a case around Herman. There is no indication anywhere in
Speaker 1: the reports of the police ever followed up and tried
Speaker 1: to confirm his alibi. And even to another layer of injustice,
Speaker 1: there's Herman's attorney, who he thought this whole time was
Speaker 1: fighting for him, was doing absolutely nothing and made no
Speaker 1: attempt to shore up his alibi and get any of
Speaker 1: these surveillance videos or do anything. So Herman is like
Speaker 1: a sitting duck up there on that witness stand. He
Speaker 1: thinks that he's going to get up there and tell
Speaker 1: the jury what he's been telling all these other people.
Speaker 1: And he does that, and he thinks there's gonna be
Speaker 1: evidence to back him up. And because the police is
Speaker 1: just disregard, if not willful, attempts to not you know,
Speaker 1: have evidence to confirm what he told them, and his
Speaker 1: lawyer's absolute abject failure to corroborate anything, Herman says you
Speaker 1: end up in a situation where Herman takes the witness stand,
Speaker 1: denies all the things that testament said. He said, tells
Speaker 1: the jury all these things and there's zero support for it,
Speaker 1: and the state's evidence is purposely chosen to contradict basically
Speaker 1: everything he says. So the jury walks away and you know,
Speaker 1: thinks he's lying. When if anybody, any of these people,
Speaker 1: at any time had done their jobs his testament, he
Speaker 1: would have been corroborated from the first word he said
Speaker 1: to the last word he said. Jury walks away and
Speaker 1: because of all those failures thinks he's lying and comes
Speaker 1: back with a guilty verdict. Herman, what was that like
Speaker 1: to hear that verdict pronounced? I basically spent two days
Speaker 1: in shock, you know, I mean, I grew up I
Speaker 1: believed in the law, in the justice system. I was
Speaker 1: raised to be a law and order guy. I knew
Speaker 1: police officers, and I knew Pitty Sheriff's my whole life.
Speaker 1: I've been around him. I think that what my belief
Speaker 1: was a complete and total failure because of the corrupt
Speaker 1: and injustice of the system. And I still to this
Speaker 1: day I couldn't believe twelve people could find me guilty
Speaker 1: of anything, least of all killing Penny Herman. You are
Speaker 1: convicted and you are sentenced to life in prison without
Speaker 1: the possibility of parole. Can you tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about your time in prison? How did you pass
Speaker 1: the time? What did you do to keep busy, and
Speaker 1: how did you maintain hope. Tried to become a lawyer.
Speaker 1: If I was going to prove my inness, I would
Speaker 1: have to learn the law, and part of it was
Speaker 1: helping other people with their legal cases, which kind of
Speaker 1: she meanted the fact that the justice system is broken,
Speaker 1: broken beyond prepare. I'm not gonna sit there and say
Speaker 1: everybody in prison is innocent, but there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are doing time that might have done something
Speaker 1: to get locked up, but they definitely didn't do what
Speaker 1: they're doing time for. And that kind of helped me
Speaker 1: keep it together and kept working on my cage, and
Speaker 1: I kept hitting the wall and hitting the wall, and
Speaker 1: somebody turned me onto the Illinois Innocent Project. I wrote
Speaker 1: them and filled out the application and everything. They jumped
Speaker 1: on board and they just did so much for me. Oh, oh,
Speaker 1: my life. You know, it's been a it's been a trial,
Speaker 1: has been a struggle and uh, Lauren and Vanessa amuole.
Speaker 1: He sorry, I don't mean to be a blob and idiot.
Speaker 1: You're not. You're being one of the most powerful advocates
Speaker 1: I have ever heard for fixing this system that's so broken,
Speaker 1: well's broken, you know, sometimes when it's that broken, you
Speaker 1: just need to stop and start all over them. But
Speaker 1: they're not going to do that. There's too many Blue
Speaker 1: Testament and Mike Murmill's in the world. So you take
Speaker 1: the case, Lauren um you with the Illinois Innocence Project
Speaker 1: around the case, and Vanessa, you and the Innocence Project
Speaker 1: come on board a few years later, tell me what
Speaker 1: you did to dismantle the case against Herman Williams. So
Speaker 1: we started. The first step was trying to get DNA testing.
Speaker 1: You know, we knew that we wanted to test the
Speaker 1: evidence that was used against him at trial. And incredibly significantly,
Speaker 1: there was DNA that was able to be tested from
Speaker 1: skin material under Penny's fingernails, and there was male DNA
Speaker 1: recovered from under her nails and it's not Herman's DNA.
Speaker 1: M Vanessa, do you want to weigh in on the
Speaker 1: pathology review that was done? So part of what was
Speaker 1: done post conviction was you know, going back with this
Speaker 1: pathology and and having it reviewed. It was reviewed by
Speaker 1: an independent medical examiner, James Filkins and Dr Filkins looked
Speaker 1: at the evidence and based on established principles of forensic pathology,
Speaker 1: concluded that Penny William's time of death was much closer
Speaker 1: in time too when her body was found, which excluded
Speaker 1: Herman as the assailant. You know, you really could teach
Speaker 1: a class on wrongful convictions looking at Herman's kate because
Speaker 1: it has basically every component of wrongful conviction cases. Tunnel
Speaker 1: vision where police just zeroed in on him from the
Speaker 1: beginning and failed to investigate other leads that came in
Speaker 1: that you know, pointed to other suspects in the case,
Speaker 1: and prosecutorial misconduct when it comes to the time of
Speaker 1: death testimony because the medical examiner had had given a
Speaker 1: larger window, but that opinion was not turned over to
Speaker 1: the defense as is required by the case of Brady
Speaker 1: versus Maryland and the US Constitution. And then of course
Speaker 1: there's the information that came you know that we now
Speaker 1: know about lu Testament that wasn't known in the nineties
Speaker 1: um and so the existence of these other wrongful conviction cases.
Speaker 1: The existence that knowledge that testament, fabricated evidence, and fabricated
Speaker 1: confessions in an in of itself is the grounds for
Speaker 1: for overturning the conviction. It's so wrong. And just hearing
Speaker 1: you both recount what you have done in this case
Speaker 1: and all of the stones you unturned and all of
Speaker 1: the just flat outlies that you have caught folks in
Speaker 1: is frankly inspiring to hear. And you know, Herman, as
Speaker 1: you are watching Lauren and Vanessa work and as you're
Speaker 1: learning that they're finding all of this out, at some point,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing you must have felt like you had reached
Speaker 1: a tipping point, like all of a sudden, maybe there
Speaker 1: was going to be a light at the end of
Speaker 1: this tunnel. When did you have this moment of thinking,
Speaker 1: you know what, this might work. They might prove me innocent,
Speaker 1: I might get to go home. Well, I think the
Speaker 1: big one was when the DNA testing was done, because
Speaker 1: that was that that put the car in the driver's seat,
Speaker 1: and that put it on the highway. And I also
Speaker 1: want to give a shout out to Lindberg and actly.
Speaker 1: I know she worked currently on my case too, But
Speaker 1: you know, it seemed like with the COVID and everything else,
Speaker 1: that there was a light at the end of the tunnel,
Speaker 1: but somebody kept moving the white. But then finally, you know,
Speaker 1: this spring rolled around and I remember Lauren and Lynn
Speaker 1: coming to see me and you give me a news
Speaker 1: and even though it took four months from the news,
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, that was that was the chipping point when
Speaker 1: they told me that. That's when I actually began to
Speaker 1: believe that I was gonna be getting out. I didn't
Speaker 1: know one win, but I knew I was gonna happen.
Speaker 1: And I've seen the pictures Herman on September six, me two,
Speaker 1: you walked out of prison into a beautiful fall day,
Speaker 1: blue sky, white clouds, with your lawyers at your side,
Speaker 1: and you were free. Take us to that moment. What
Speaker 1: was it like? Words can't describe it. I was still
Speaker 1: paranoid that they were gonna come snag me up and say, oh,
Speaker 1: this is just some big joke, get back in prison.
Speaker 1: It didn't really start sinking until we got to the
Speaker 1: park and I've seen all them people. You're about to
Speaker 1: support me. We're there for me, having Lauren and Vanessa there,
Speaker 1: my dream team, I said, I ain't got the words
Speaker 1: to describe it unless, like I told Lauren and Vanessa,
Speaker 1: anything and everything they need me to do, I'll do
Speaker 1: my best. That you know him that, yeah, I do
Speaker 1: everybody that's similarly situated like me, wrong is wrong and
Speaker 1: until right is right, we got to keep up the fight,
Speaker 1: Vanessa and Lauren. Where do we start? What needs to
Speaker 1: be fixed? What's first on the list. One thing that
Speaker 1: I thought was so remarkable about Herman's exoneration was the
Speaker 1: willingness of the current States Attorney to acknowledge the range
Speaker 1: of misconduct that led to his wrongful conviction. And you know,
Speaker 1: if we don't acknowledge the range of misconduct that leads
Speaker 1: to wrongful convictions, and we want to gloss it over
Speaker 1: to just we have new DNA technology or you know,
Speaker 1: this shows the systems working. No, Herman's case shows the
Speaker 1: system is not working. Um And and I think that
Speaker 1: the degree of honesty about what led to his wrongful
Speaker 1: conviction is what we need if we're ever to really address,
Speaker 1: you know, the problems in the system. And speaking of honesty, Lauren,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, in particular, right what happened
Speaker 1: to Detective Testament, the one who said that Hermann confessed,
Speaker 1: but since then has been linked to countless wrongful conviction cases.
Speaker 1: So Luke Testament stayed on um as the deputy commander
Speaker 1: of the Lake How a major crimes task force, until
Speaker 1: I believe two thousand five, and went on to and
Speaker 1: continues to do some trainings around the state of Illinois
Speaker 1: related to interrogation techniques. The fact that he would be
Speaker 1: seen as an expert and a source for law enforcement
Speaker 1: to learn from I find astonishing. I find it appalling
Speaker 1: when you have the track record that he has. I
Speaker 1: just can't imagine that he would be out doing any
Speaker 1: form of training. But to this day he's out, you know,
Speaker 1: declaring that his ways are the right ways, despite the
Speaker 1: trail of horrors that have followed him in his career.
Speaker 1: There's no accountability, there's no consequences for people who have
Speaker 1: those positions of authority and destroy people's lives. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we've reached the end of a really disturbing and important
Speaker 1: and fundamentally motivating, an energizing story. Hearing from Lauren in
Speaker 1: Vanessa and how they fought for Herman. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm the lucky one to be able to hear this
Speaker 1: story and bring it to our listeners. The lucky You
Speaker 1: want to be able to sit um in Jason Flon
Speaker 1: seat to host the Wrongful Conviction podcast and to bring
Speaker 1: out Herman's story. And so, just like Jason does at
Speaker 1: the end of this episode, I'm going to turn off
Speaker 1: my microphone and I'm gonna let you, Herman, take over
Speaker 1: and deliver what Jason likes to call closing arguments. You
Speaker 1: can say whatever you want, whatever comes to your mind
Speaker 1: about your case, about your life, about anything else. But
Speaker 1: we're going to turn it over now to you and
Speaker 1: give you the last word. Herman. Williams, what happened to me?
Speaker 1: It's happed into a lot of people. Yeah, it's time
Speaker 1: to put a stop to it. William Blackstone made a
Speaker 1: comment it always stuck near and dear to my heart,
Speaker 1: which she's basically said, it's better to let ten guilty
Speaker 1: men go for in the locker up point innocent man.
Speaker 1: But somewhere in life it seemed like it got turned
Speaker 1: around and justice system would rather see ten innocent people
Speaker 1: locked up and let one guilty man go free. And
Speaker 1: that's a pitiful shame. It's time to put a stop
Speaker 1: to it. I don't know how when I'm not sure
Speaker 1: anybody does, and then start making it right. Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to wrong for Conviction. I'm your guest host,
Speaker 1: Laura and I Writer. I'd like to thank our executive
Speaker 1: producers Jason Slum and Kevin Wordis. The senior producer for
Speaker 1: this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers are Lila
Speaker 1: Robinson and Jeff Clyburne. Our editor is Roxandra Gweedy. The
Speaker 1: music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated
Speaker 1: composer j Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can follow me
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Laura and I Writer. Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the
Speaker 1: guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction, Laura and I Writer
Speaker 1: will return with another outrageous false confession story. She'll talk
Speaker 1: to Davante Sandford, who was just fourteen years old when
Speaker 1: he was arrested for a quadruple homicide. He had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with and there's a shocking twist that you
Speaker 1: will not want to miss, so listen next Monday in
Speaker 1: the Wrongful Conviction Podcast feed h