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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Vlam, host of Rafel Conviction, but this week,

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Speaker 1: instead of hearing me, I've invited a legitimate genius from

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Speaker 1: the legal world to bring their knowledge and expertise to

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Speaker 1: the conversation as guest host Here at Raefel Conviction, we

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Speaker 1: believe that sharing the stories of the incarcerated innocent can

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Speaker 1: create real change in the world, even beyond what these

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Speaker 1: real life legal superheroes do every day.

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Speaker 2: In September nineteen ninety three, Herman Williams lived with his

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Speaker 2: ex wife Penny in an apartment in Lake County, Illinois.

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Speaker 2: Even though he and Penny were divorced, they still had

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Speaker 2: a great relationship, sharing household duties and the care of

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Speaker 2: their two kids. Herman had joined the Navy as a

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Speaker 2: young man, and he planned to spend his entire career

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Speaker 2: in the armed forces. He was deployed to the Persian

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Speaker 2: Gulf and earned distinction for his service. By nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 2: he was making plans to move to San Diego, California,

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Speaker 2: where he would join the crew of a Navy ship

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Speaker 2: and had back out to see Penny and the kids

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Speaker 2: would stay in the apartment in Illinois, but none of

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Speaker 2: these plans would materialize. On Sunday, September twenty sixth, Penny's

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Speaker 2: lifeless body was found floating in a pond. She'd been

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Speaker 2: missing for several days, with Herman frantically trying to find her.

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Speaker 2: The police decided early in their investigation that Herman had

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Speaker 2: to be responsible for Penny's death, and they only looked

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Speaker 2: for evidence to confirm that theory. In all their recorded

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Speaker 2: interviews with Herman, he denied killing Penny or knowing anything

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Speaker 2: about how she died. But weeks later, the detectives claimed

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Speaker 2: that Herman had confessed. With this fabricated confession and a

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Speaker 2: woefully underprepared defense team, Herman Williams was convicted of first

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Speaker 2: degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole.

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Speaker 2: This is wrongful Conviction. Hey guys, it's Laura and I writer,

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Speaker 2: and I am so honored to be guest hosting this

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Speaker 2: episode of Wrongful Conviction. I'm the co director of the

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Speaker 2: Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, and you might

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Speaker 2: recognize my voice from another series I co host on

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Speaker 2: this same podcast, feed False Confessions. Now, if you've listened

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Speaker 2: to False Confessions, you know that usually in these cases

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Speaker 2: we see police using coersive tactics that can pressure vulnerable

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Speaker 2: people into admitting to crimes they didn't commit. But Herman's

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Speaker 2: story is different. Herman was never forced to admit to

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Speaker 2: a crime. Instead, the police completely made up his confession,

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Speaker 2: a total lie. Herman, I am so pleased to have

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Speaker 2: you here today to talk about your story, and we're

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Speaker 2: also by your two rockstar attorneys. Could you introduce yourselves

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Speaker 2: for our audience.

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Speaker 3: I'm Herman Williams. I did twenty nine years for a

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Speaker 3: crime I didn't commit, and I owe my life to

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Speaker 3: the Innosons Project.

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Speaker 4: I'm Lauren Keasberg. I'm co director at the Illinois Innissonce Project.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 5: I'm Fanessa Potkin. I'm the director of Special Litigation at

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Speaker 5: the Innocence Project.

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Speaker 2: So, Herman, I want to start out by asking you

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Speaker 2: to take us back to before all of this happens.

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Speaker 2: You grew up in Arizona and as a young man.

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Speaker 2: When I hear about your life, it seems to me

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Speaker 2: that there were two things, two big things in your

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Speaker 2: life for you as a young man. One was the

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Speaker 2: Navy and one was Penny. Can you tell us about

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Speaker 2: those two things?

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Speaker 3: You know, I was a typical teenage kid, I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what I wanted to do in life or anything.

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Speaker 3: And I ended up joining the Navy mainly because the

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Speaker 3: first time I was the ocean, it was just awesome.

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Speaker 3: I just found my place. It was me, it was home.

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Speaker 3: I had every intention of basically being in the Navy

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Speaker 3: until they told me I had to take my walker

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Speaker 3: and get out. Penny. She was still in my heart,

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Speaker 3: a terrific woman, and how that day goes by, I

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Speaker 3: don't miss her. But yeah, you know, our biggest problem

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Speaker 3: was I was all Navy and she just wasn't made

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Speaker 3: to be a Navy wife. So we ended up divorcing,

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Speaker 3: and as far as I believe, it was the best

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Speaker 3: thing that happened to our relationship. We got closer as

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Speaker 3: a divorced couple than we did when we were married.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to explain, but that's the way it was.

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Speaker 2: And you, if I've got this right, you won some

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Speaker 2: recognition for your work in the Navy, didn't you.

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Speaker 3: You know, when I was on active duty, I didn't

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Speaker 3: do it for the medals. I didn't do it for

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Speaker 3: the accommodations. You know, I was happy with a thank

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Speaker 3: you at a boy type stuff. But now you know,

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Speaker 3: I would like them to at least acknowledge my place

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Speaker 3: in the Navy, because I feel like they abandoned me

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Speaker 3: when all this took place.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're too modest to say that you're a decorated VET,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to say it right now. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to say thank you for your service, and I am

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Speaker 2: going to say you deserve all the recognition in the

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Speaker 2: world for that service that you gave to our country.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So while your young naval office, you, you are married

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Speaker 2: to Penny, you are having adventures in between deployments. You

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Speaker 2: guys are traveling, going to Hawaii, You're going to Mexico.

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Speaker 2: You're living the life of a young married couple, and

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Speaker 2: you have two kids. Tell me about your kids.

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Speaker 3: Hermon, when all this happened, Charlie was six and Crystal

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Speaker 3: was two. Charlie was awesome. You know, he was a

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Speaker 3: people pleaser, he likes to make people happy. And Crystal,

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Speaker 3: you know, she was a precocious, two handful daddy's little monster,

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Speaker 3: however you want to label her. I mean, I admit

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Speaker 3: I had more focus on the Navy than I did

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Speaker 3: as me and a father. But while I was out,

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Speaker 3: I made sure that the kids needed for nothing, and

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Speaker 3: when Penny had came back to Illinois, it was kind

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Speaker 3: of cool because I was actually getting an opportunity to

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Speaker 3: know my kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so at one point you and Penny decide to

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Speaker 2: go separate ways. You move up to Illinois. You're stationed

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Speaker 2: at the Great Lakes Naval Base, which is just north

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Speaker 2: of Chicago, and despite the fact that you and Penny

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Speaker 2: aren't together, she ends up moving up to Illinois as well.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about that.

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Speaker 3: When Penny came up here, it's like, well, why don't

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Speaker 3: she just stay in the apartment and then she can

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Speaker 3: take the apartment over When I head back to see that,

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Speaker 3: I was fixing to go to San Diego.

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Speaker 2: And tell me about that arrangement. How'd that work?

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Speaker 3: The kids had one bedroom that they were sharing and

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Speaker 3: Penny took the other bedroom, and I was sleeping on

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Speaker 3: the sofa bed and it was working out really fine.

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Speaker 2: So you're there in the Navy station at the Great

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Speaker 2: Lakes Naval Base September ninety three. Penny and the kids

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Speaker 2: are with you, And this is where I want to

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Speaker 2: bring in Lauren and Vanessa, your two rockstar attorneys, and

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Speaker 2: ask you to talk about the crime that happened that

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Speaker 2: is the reason that we're all here today talking about

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Speaker 2: this case. What happened to Penny around this time.

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Speaker 4: So you know what's so interesting in this case is

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Speaker 4: that after presenting herman for a number of years, we

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Speaker 4: received a report from a forensic pathologist which actually sort

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Speaker 4: of flipped this whole case on its head. And the

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Speaker 4: true answer is, we don't know what happened to Penny.

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Speaker 4: What we do know is that on Sunday, September twenty

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Speaker 4: sixth of nineteen ninety three, she was found in a

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Speaker 4: pond in Waukegan, in a very remote location.

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Speaker 6: She was deceased.

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Speaker 4: She had been beaten very severely with a blunt object.

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Speaker 4: She was fully clothed, wearing a floral patterned blouse that

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Speaker 4: was a button up that was neatly tucked into jeans,

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Speaker 4: and she had been clearly attacked. There were defensive wounds

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Speaker 4: on her arms which showed that she fought for her life,

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Speaker 4: and that discovery was made on that Sunday, And we.

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Speaker 2: Can get into all that in a minute. But this

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Speaker 2: is Penny in her late twenties. She's got two kids,

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Speaker 2: she's got a life and a future ahead of her,

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Speaker 2: and she turns up dead in a pond in rural

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Speaker 2: Lake County, Illinois and an area that's pretty far off

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Speaker 2: the beaten path. Now, I want to talk for a

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Speaker 2: minute about Lake County, Illinois, which is where the naval

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Speaker 2: base was, which is where you were living, Hermon, and

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Speaker 2: which is where this happened to Penny. Lake County, Illinois

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Speaker 2: is known like Cook County, it's neighbor to the south

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Speaker 2: in Illinois, as unfortunately a hub for false confessions and

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Speaker 2: as we're going to hear in this case, fabricated confessions,

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Speaker 2: confessions it never even happened. But Lauren, can you tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit more about your experience with Lake

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Speaker 2: County because it is really ground zero. You know, you

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Speaker 2: hear about these places where where it seems like time

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Speaker 2: runs backward. In Lake County, Illinois, it feels like justice

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Speaker 2: runs backward, right, like you're always pushing against these headwinds

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Speaker 2: that just want to deny that truth, want to deny DNA,

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Speaker 2: want to deny overwhelming evidence of innocence. Lauren, tell us

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Speaker 2: about your work in Lake County.

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Speaker 4: I remember in two thousand and I think it was

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Speaker 4: fourteen when we first evaluated Herman's case at the Illinois

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Speaker 4: Innocence Project, and seeing it on paper for the very

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Speaker 4: first time. I remember where I was sitting in the

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Speaker 4: room hearing about his case because I saw all the players,

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Speaker 4: I saw what the evidence was against him, and I

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Speaker 4: remember saying, hand me that paper, this is my case.

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Speaker 4: This man is innocent. I can tell you right now

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Speaker 4: from who these people are and what they're claiming this

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Speaker 4: evidence is. There's going to be something to this case.

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Speaker 4: Mike Marmal himself is a character, this prosecutor who is

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Speaker 4: responsible for many years lost to innocent men in prison,

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Speaker 4: despite having evidence of their innocence. Just this callousness and

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Speaker 4: the lack of professionalism and morals and ethics is just unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: And for years, everyone that practiced in that county knew

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Speaker 4: exactly who he was, knew what his reputation was, and

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Speaker 4: allowed him to get away with these things. And Herman

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Speaker 4: is an unconscionable example of misconduct that has occurred in

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Speaker 4: that county.

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Speaker 2: Blake County is a serial offender place. There's absolutely nothing

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Speaker 2: else we can say when it comes to wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 2: But I want to get back to our story here.

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Speaker 2: Penny's found on Sunday, September twenty sixth, nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 2: in that pond in Waukegan, Illinois, and months before trial,

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Speaker 2: the coroner's office gives a time of death estimate that

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Speaker 2: ranges from Wednesday into Friday. So the big question then

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Speaker 2: becomes who would do this? Now, we all know that

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Speaker 2: in cases like this, right, especially in the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 2: spouses ex spouses always jumped to the top of the

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Speaker 2: suspect list. And so if we're looking at a timeline

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Speaker 2: of Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, one of the really big

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Speaker 2: questions in this case is herman and his alibi. So, Lauren,

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Speaker 2: can you walk us through what Herman was doing on

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Speaker 2: those days that Penny disappeared.

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Speaker 4: The night before Penny disappeared, which was Whyesday, September twenty second,

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Speaker 4: Herman and Penny had gone out to go indially to

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Speaker 4: go to the movies, and they had a neighbor who

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Speaker 4: lived downstairs named Wayne and his wife, and they had

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Speaker 4: kids who were of the same age as Herman and Penny,

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Speaker 4: so kids, so the two families would sort of swap

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Speaker 4: childcare and help babysit each other's kids. So that Wednesday night,

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Speaker 4: Herman and Penny had gone out to go to the

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Speaker 4: movies a variety of other things. After the movie had

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Speaker 4: already started and they missed the show. They come back

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Speaker 4: that Wednesday night together. Their neighbor sees Herman and Penny

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Speaker 4: together as he initially tells the police, and they pick

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Speaker 4: up their kids. They go upstairs.

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Speaker 6: They all go to bed.

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Speaker 4: Thursday morning, Herman wakes up early, as per usual being

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Speaker 4: a navy man and reporting to base, you know, in

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Speaker 4: the very early hours of the morning, gets up, sees

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Speaker 4: the Penny as there knows that Penny has the day

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Speaker 4: off of work that day, so she's kind of helping

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Speaker 4: get Charlie ready for school, who's their six year old son.

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Speaker 4: Herman takes their two year old daughter, drops her off

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Speaker 4: at the babysitter as he usually does on the way

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Speaker 4: to base, and goes to work for the day. Charlie,

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Speaker 4: their six year old son, is taken downstairs to the

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Speaker 4: neighbor who is responsible for getting the kids to school

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Speaker 4: that morning. Right before they leave for school, the neighbor

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Speaker 4: sends Charlie back upstairs to say to find out who's

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Speaker 4: picking up the kids from school at the end of

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Speaker 4: the day, and Charlie comes back down after going back

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Speaker 4: up to his apartment and reports back, my mom's not

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Speaker 4: home anymore. She left with someone. She left in a

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Speaker 4: car with someone from work, and so it's like no

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Speaker 4: big deal. Everyone moves on with their day. The kids

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Speaker 4: go to school, Herman gets done with work that day.

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Speaker 4: On Thursday, picks up Chrystal from daycare, picks up the

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Speaker 4: other kids, and he's already He and Penny had arranged

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Speaker 4: to watch Wayne's kids on Thursday night, so he gets

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Speaker 4: Wayne's two children as well. So Herman is in tow

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Speaker 4: with these four kids, I think, all under the age

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Speaker 4: of six or seven, and sort of runs some errands

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Speaker 4: with them, stops at the mall, to the T shirt store,

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Speaker 4: and visits Kitty at the mall. And I think as

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Speaker 4: the day goes on on Thursday, there's some sort of

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Speaker 4: lingering question of you know, where's Penny. Why isn't Penny calling?

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Speaker 4: You know, she had the day off today, she knows

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Speaker 4: we're watching the kids. You know where's Penny. But no

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Speaker 4: worry yet, right, It's just sort of the days going on.

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Speaker 4: It's just a little strange. Herman is increasingly anxious and

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Speaker 4: nervous about where Penny is. Doesn't know what to do.

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Speaker 4: This is an era before cell phones before being able

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Speaker 4: to reach people. So what do you do in that situation?

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Speaker 4: So Herman, when Wayne, his neighbor, gets home, takes Wayne's

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Speaker 4: kids back downstairs to him and says to Wayne, you know,

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Speaker 4: what do you think I should do? I'm worried.

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Speaker 6: Penny never came home. It's not like her.

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Speaker 4: She hasn't called. So Herman uses Wayne's phone on Thursday

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Speaker 4: night to call the Gurney Police Department to inquire what

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Speaker 4: he should do and say, I'm worried, and he's told

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Speaker 4: at that time it hasn't quite been twenty four hours.

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Speaker 4: Usually these situations resolve themselves, you know, give it till

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Speaker 4: the morning and give us a call tomorrow if she

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Speaker 4: still isn't home. This is a case where if this

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Speaker 4: murder didn't happen on Wednesday night, it's impossible for Herman

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Speaker 4: to have committed it. You know, once we get a

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Speaker 4: little further down the line in this case, the state

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Speaker 4: realizes this is a problem for them and they have

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Speaker 4: to isolate it on that Wednesday night because Herman is

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Speaker 4: accounted for at every moment moving forward.

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Speaker 2: That's right. It's one of the most thorough alibis I

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Speaker 2: have ever seen. Herman is there. He's at work, right,

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Speaker 2: he's on the base. He's there with four kids in tow.

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Speaker 2: The neighbors see him. Everybody in this community sees you, Herman,

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Speaker 2: right at this time that the coroner has already said,

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Speaker 2: this is happening to Penny. You're accounted for on Wednesday night,

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Speaker 2: you're accounted for on Thursday. You're counted for on Friday,

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Speaker 2: and that's when you get this note, this notification that

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Speaker 2: Penny's purse has been found. What goes through your head

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Speaker 2: on that Friday morning. She's been missing since you came

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Speaker 2: home from work the pre day, and then you find

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Speaker 2: out that her purse has been found. What goes through

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Speaker 2: your head?

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Speaker 3: To say I freaked out was putting it mildly because

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Speaker 3: no Penny had stayed out, but she had never stayed

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Speaker 3: out all night without calling. So I was already anxious

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Speaker 3: from that because you know, that was kind of our written,

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Speaker 3: unwritten agreement. So then I go to a Great Lakes

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Speaker 3: Police department and I get her purse. You know, I

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Speaker 3: didn't know what to make of anything, so Gurnie asked

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Speaker 3: me to come in, and at first everything seemed fine

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Speaker 3: and nanty, but then all of a sudden it went

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Speaker 3: from investigation to adversarial.

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Speaker 2: So this is on Friday. Her purse has been found,

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Speaker 2: but no one knows what's happened to her yet she's

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Speaker 2: still missing. And so you go into the police departments

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Speaker 2: and tell me about it turning adversarial. What happened to

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Speaker 2: you in there?

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Speaker 3: Well, at first, you know, they were trying to get

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Speaker 3: timelines and find out what was going on, and then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden it went straight to accusation. What'd

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Speaker 3: you do with her? They start bringing in two or

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Speaker 3: three officers at a time, and during the entire interrogation

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Speaker 3: they're video taping it, and they got a cassette player

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Speaker 3: on the table and they're taking cassette recordings. Even though

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Speaker 3: it turned adversero, I'm still doing my best to be

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Speaker 3: as helpful as I know how to be. They started

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Speaker 3: asking me questions and then turning those questions into me

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Speaker 3: making these comments, which was, you know, completely off the wall.

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Speaker 3: And then finally I had enough of it and I said,

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Speaker 3: this isn't solving anything. We're not finding Penny, we're not

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Speaker 3: knowing what's going on. I said, I'm going to go,

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Speaker 3: and they told me I couldn't go.

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Speaker 2: So they've got you and the Gurney police departments, and

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Speaker 2: they're asking you these questions. Right, you're saying, this is

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00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 2: turning accusational really really fast. They take your car. You

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Speaker 2: actually have to walk home from the police station that Friday.

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Speaker 2: What's going through your mind at this time? Still Penny's

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Speaker 2: not been found. You've spent all day at the police station.

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Speaker 2: They're acting like you're a suspect. You just want to

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Speaker 2: find your ex wife.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm thinking it's time for them to get out

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Speaker 3: there and start trying to, you know, shake the brushes

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Speaker 3: and investigate. But instead they're just busy focusing on me.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't understand why. You know, it's like the

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Speaker 3: stuff on TV. It's a cash twenty two. If you

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Speaker 3: try to help the cops, then you're trying to trick them.

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Speaker 3: And if you don't help the cops, then you're being

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Speaker 3: evasive and you must be guilty of something you can't

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Speaker 3: win for losing.

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Speaker 2: So this is going on Friday. You're being questioned, they

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Speaker 2: get your car, they take your kids, Charlie and Crystal,

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Speaker 2: they're in your apartment. This is going on Friday, Saturday,

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Speaker 2: and then Sunday. Right that Sunday is when they find

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Speaker 2: Penny in that pond. How'd you react knowing that this

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Speaker 2: is what happened to the mother of your kids.

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Speaker 3: I found out about it when a newspaper reporter called

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Speaker 3: me to ask me about it. The police didn't even

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Speaker 3: have the courtesy to tell me, and I didn't when

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00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 3: they said found Penny. It didn't occur to me that

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00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,479
Speaker 3: she was killed, you know, and on my way if

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00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,919
Speaker 3: you found her, how come she hasn't you know, been

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00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 3: in contact with me? And said, oh no, they found her.

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00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 3: She was dead. And I hung up the phone and

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Speaker 3: I went downstairs to the police that were parked out

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Speaker 3: in the parking lot, and I was like, why didn't

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Speaker 3: you tell me? They told me it was none of

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Speaker 3: my business, and I snapped. And I'm an alcoholic and

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Speaker 3: at that time I had about two years of sobriety

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Speaker 3: and I fell off the wagon. I turned to the

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Speaker 3: bottle because I didn't know what else to do, and

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Speaker 3: that's when I ended up calling the Great Legs Hospital

349
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Speaker 3: because I didn't know where else to turn. I tried

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Speaker 3: to call a sponsor that I had, but he wasn't available,

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Speaker 3: and I knew I was on a bad I was

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Speaker 3: in a bad way. So I called the hospital and

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Speaker 3: they put me in the hospital for a few days,

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Speaker 3: basically to monitoring and keep me away from drinking, which

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Speaker 3: I was thankful for that because it just it became

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Speaker 3: too much.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot, way too much to ask anyone to

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Speaker 2: deal with. I mean, this is life falling apart over

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00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 2: the course of a couple of days, right, and it

360
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,719
Speaker 2: unfortunately does not stop after those a few days. You

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00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: are brought back in for another round of questioning. Four

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00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: days after Penny was found dead.

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Speaker 3: Every day I was in the hospital, they were coming

364
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 3: and questioning me, and I kept telling them, you have

365
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 3: you talked to Beauchet who was my attorney at the time,

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00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 3: and I had him under a retainer. They were asking

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Speaker 3: me questions and I kept telling them I'm not going

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00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 3: to talk without a lawyer. And they did the same

369
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 3: thing that they did at Guarannee. They kept bringing in

370
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Speaker 3: two or three investigators wanting to me to answer questions,

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Speaker 3: and I answered everything I want my attorney. And the

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00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 3: thing is, the whole time I'm handcuffed to I it's

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Speaker 3: bolted to the chair on a chair that's bolted to

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Speaker 3: the ground. And that's why the whole story about Testman

375
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Speaker 3: coming in and we drinking coffee and we being the

376
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 3: best buddies is completely bs.

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Speaker 2: All right, So let me take a step in here,

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00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: because you just said a pretty important name. One of

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00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: the interrogators who questioned you was a detective who at

380
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Speaker 2: the time was the deputy commander of the Lake County

381
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Speaker 2: Major Crimes Task Force, a detective named lou Tessaman. And unfortunately,

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00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: that is a name that is really well known to

383
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Speaker 2: those of us who've been doing wrongful conviction work in

384
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 2: Lake County, Vanessa. Can you step in here and tell

385
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Speaker 2: us a little bit about Detective Testament's history.

386
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 5: Well, Detective Testament, he has publicly said that he was

387
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 5: involved in obtaining confession statements in I believe, around eighty

388
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 5: homicide cases throughout his career.

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Speaker 6: It's a pretty significant number.

390
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Speaker 5: And what's even more significant is that we know to

391
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Speaker 5: a certainty that at least three of those individuals, if.

392
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 6: Not more, were actually innocent.

393
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Speaker 5: And so if there are three cases that we know

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Speaker 5: about of the eighty cases that Testament is touting that

395
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 5: he obtained confessions in homicide cases, how many other of

396
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 5: those seventy seven people also are.

397
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Speaker 6: Like Herman Williams and actually innocent.

398
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Speaker 2: So you're in that interrogation room with Detective Testament, with

399
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: other detectives from the Late County Major Crimes Task Force,

400
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: and at the end of that interrogation they walk out

401
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 2: of that room and turns out they start telling people

402
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: that you had confessed to killing Penny Herman. Did you

403
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: confess to killing your wife?

404
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: No, Man never did, never even said anything in my opinion,

405
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 3: that would make them think that.

406
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 2: We're used to on this podcast, on the False Confessions

407
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: podcast that I host, we're used to stories of people

408
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 2: who are coerced into confessing to crimes that they didn't commit,

409
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: who are pressured during interrogation into saying things that are

410
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: just not true. But this is different, right, This is

411
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 2: different because this is a fabricated confession. They're saying you confessed,

412
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: but you never did so. At the heart of this case,

413
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,959
Speaker 2: from the very beginning, is a lie. And Vanessa, can

414
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about the statements that

415
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: the police and prosecutors were making in the press about

416
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Speaker 2: whether Herman had confessed right after this interrogation.

417
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 5: Just so astounding is that there was no video recording

418
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 5: of this interrogation. There was no audio recording In fact,

419
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 5: lou Testaman didn't even make any notes of what Herman

420
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 5: purportedly said until two weeks later. There's a report that

421
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 5: says that Herman purportedly confessed during this custodial interrogation. How

422
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 5: do you write up a report two weeks later without

423
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 5: having any contemporaneous notes or audio or visual recording of

424
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 5: what happened. How do you remember what questions you asked Herman?

425
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 5: How do you remember verbatim his answers. It's just impossible.

426
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Speaker 6: But yet this is what Testaman put forward.

427
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: I want to move ahead to the trial, right. The

428
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: trial happens in nineteen ninety four, in February of nineteen

429
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: ninety four. We've got lead prosecutor Mike Marmel, who you've

430
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: talked about, and Herman. You're in a fight, fight for

431
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: your life. If you're convicted, you get sentenced to life

432
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: in prison, and that's what you're face. Tell us, please,

433
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: Lauren and Vanessa, tell us a little bit about the

434
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: evidence that the state brought forward against Herman, and maybe

435
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about how the investigation and

436
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: its results were changed by the state to fit its

437
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: theory of Herman's guilt.

438
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 4: Sure, so, the state prosecuted Herman on this theory that

439
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 4: he had a motive to kill Penny because he wanted

440
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: to bring his children to San Diego with him, despite

441
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: the fact, as he said, he was boarding a ship

442
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: and that wasn't even possible. The state had to somehow

443
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 4: fit this murder into Wednesday night, because if it didn't

444
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 4: happen Wednesday night, Herman could not have committed the crime.

445
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 4: So what they did was they used Herman's alleged confession,

446
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 4: which was testimony put on by detective testament. They introduced

447
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 4: some blood evidence where they did zerology so blood typing

448
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 4: of some miniscule amounts of blood that they found, including

449
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 4: on the inside of Herman's pickup truck. And they also

450
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 4: introduced testimony from the medical examiner about a very precise

451
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 4: time of death with a window of just about five

452
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: hours on Wednesday night. That is they presented to the

453
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 4: jury is when Penny, with you know reasonable degree of

454
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 4: scientific and medical certainty that Penny died within this short

455
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 4: window of time on Wednesday night when they were together.

456
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: Now, hang on, Lauren, because I remember that in the

457
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: coroner's inquest months before trial, they gave a range of

458
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: dates from Wednesday night into Friday morning, and now they're

459
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: changing that. They're saying that Penny had to have died

460
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: on Wednesday night. What happened here?

461
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 4: So initially, you know, there's a coroner's inquest that took

462
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 4: place in November, and at that time in November, the

463
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,239
Speaker 4: deputy coroner testified at the inquest that the time of

464
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 4: death was sometime between Wednesday night and Thursday.

465
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 6: And you know, that was really.

466
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 4: Significant because for herman's defense attorney, knowing what they knew then,

467
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: which is that Charlie, their six year old son, had

468
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 4: told the police that he saw his mother Thursday morning.

469
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 4: He remembered her pouring cereal for him. Knowing that the

470
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 4: downstairs neighbor initially told police that Penny came home Wednesday night,

471
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 4: the defense theory was locked in on Penny having left

472
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 4: Thursday morning and being murdered sometimes Thursday, based on everything

473
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 4: they knew at the time. Right before the medical examiner,

474
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 4: doctor Nancy Jones, testified before the jury, Mike murmel Is, prosecutor,

475
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: tells the judge. Over the lunch hour, we showed doctor

476
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: Jones the video of Penny's body being pulled from the water,

477
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 4: and her testimony today, and he even kind of sarcastically

478
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 4: puts a dig in at the defense lawyer and says,

479
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: you know, as much as the defense wants this to

480
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: have happened sometime Thursday, the doctor Jones is going to

481
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 4: get up here and tell this jury the based on

482
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 4: what she sees in this video and based on everything

483
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: she saw at autopsy, Penny died between eight pm and

484
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 4: midnight to one am at the latest on Wednesday night.

485
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: Now, this is what they're throwing at you, Herman, and

486
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: you're in a fight for your life, and you decide

487
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: to testify in your own defense. Tell me what that

488
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: was like to get up and tell the world right,

489
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: I'm Herman Williams. I did not do this.

490
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: I would have felt better if they had let me

491
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: speak and say my piece, as opposed to answering yes

492
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 3: or no questions. And most of the if you read

493
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: the transcripts, most of the questions were loaded questions. But

494
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: I'm being told that all I can do is answer

495
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 3: yes or no. It overwhelmed me. But all I could

496
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: do is get up there and tell the truth. Is

497
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: I knew it?

498
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 4: Can I jump in and say something, Laura? Of course,

499
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 4: So the entire time that Herman is being interrogated by

500
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 4: the police to the trial prior to his arrest. He's

501
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 4: giving them as much information as he can, trying to

502
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 4: be helpful to find Penny at first, and the police

503
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 4: are running down certain leads, but they are literally only

504
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 4: trying to build a case around Herman. There is no

505
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 4: indication anywhere in the reports if the police ever followed

506
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 4: up and tried to confirm his alibi. And even to

507
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 4: another layer of injustice, there's Herman's attorney, who he thought

508
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 4: this whole time was fighting for him, was doing absolutely

509
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: nothing and made no attempt to shore up his alibi

510
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: and get any of these surveillance videos or do anything.

511
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 4: So Herman is like a sitting duck up there on

512
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: that witness stand. He thinks that he's going to get

513
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: up there and tell the jury what he's been telling

514
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 4: all these other people. And he does that, and he

515
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 4: thinks there's going to be evidence to back him up.

516
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 4: And because the police is just disregard, if not willful,

517
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 4: attempts to not have evidence to confirm what he told them,

518
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 4: and his lawyer's absolute abject failure to corroborate anything Hermann says,

519
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 4: you end up in a situation where Herman takes the

520
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 4: witness stand, denies all the things that Testaman said. He said,

521
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 4: tells the jury all these things and there's zero support

522
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 4: for it, and the state's evidence is purposely chosen to

523
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: contradict basically everything he says. So the jury walks away

524
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 4: and you know, thinks he's lying, when if anybody, any

525
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 4: of these people, at any time had done their jobs,

526
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: his testimony would have been corroborated from the first word

527
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: he said to the last word he said.

528
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: Jury walks away and because of all those failures thinks

529
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 2: he's lying and comes back with a guilty verdict. Herman,

530
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: what was that like to hear that verdict pronounced?

531
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: I basically spent two days in shock, you know, I mean,

532
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 3: I grew up I believed in the law, in the

533
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: justice system. I was raised to be a law and

534
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 3: order guy. I knew police officers and I knew sheriffs

535
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: my whole life. I've been around them. To think that

536
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: what my belief was a complete and total failure because

537
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 3: of the corrupt and injustice of the system. And I

538
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: still to this day couldn't believe twelve people could find

539
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: me guilty of anything least of all killing Penny Herman.

540
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 2: You are convicted and you are sentenced to life in

541
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: prison without the possibility of parole. Can you tell us

542
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 2: a little bit about your time in prison?

543
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: How did you.

544
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: Pass the time, what did you do to keep busy,

545
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: and how did you maintain hope.

546
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: Tried to become a lawyer. If I was going to

547
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: approve my innocence, I would have to learn the law,

548
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: and part of it was helping other people with their

549
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: legal cases, which kind of cemented the fact that the

550
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: justice system is broken, broken beyond prepare. I'm not going

551
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 3: to sit there and say everybody in prison is innocent,

552
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of people that are doing time

553
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 3: that might have done something to get locked up, but

554
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 3: they definitely didn't do what they're doing time for. And

555
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: that kind of helped me keep it together and kept

556
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: working on my cage, and I kept hitting the wall

557
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: and hitting the wall, and somebody turned me on to

558
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 3: the Illinois Innocent Project. I wrote them and filled out

559
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 3: the application and everything. They jumped on board and they

560
00:33:53,280 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: just did so much for me. Oh my life. You know,

561
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: it's been a it's been a trial, has been a struggle,

562
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: and uh, Lauren and Vanessa gave me open a love

563
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 3: for Sorry. I don't mean to be a blubbering idiot.

564
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: You're not. You're being one of the most powerful advocates

565
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: I have ever heard for fixing the system that's so broken.

566
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 3: Well it's broken, you know. Sometimes when it's that broken,

567
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 3: you just need to stop and start all over. But

568
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 3: they're not going to do that. There's too many Blue

569
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: Testman and Mike Murmills in the world.

570
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: So you take the case, Lauren, you with the Illinois

571
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: Inoson's project around the case, and Vanessa, you and the

572
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: Innocence Project come on board a few years later, tell

573
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: me what you did to dismantle the case against Herman Williams.

574
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 4: So we started. The first step was trying to get

575
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 4: DNA testing. You know, we knew that we wanted to

576
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 4: test the evidence that was used against him at trial.

577
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 4: And incredibly significantly, there was DNA that was able to

578
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 4: be tested from skin material under Penny's fingernails, and there

579
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: was male DNA recovered from under her nails and it's

580
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: not Herman's DNA. Vanessa, do you want to weigh in

581
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 4: on the pathology review that was done?

582
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 5: So part of what was done post conviction was, you know,

583
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 5: going back with this pathology and having it reviewed. It

584
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 5: was reviewed by an independent medical examiner, James Filkins, and

585
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 5: doctor Filkins looked at the evidence and based on established

586
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 5: principles of forensic pathology, concluded that Penny William's time of

587
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 5: death was much closer in time to when her body

588
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 5: was found, which excluded Herman as the assailant. You know,

589
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 5: you really could teach a class on wrongful convictions looking

590
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 5: at Herman's case because it has basically every component of

591
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 5: wrongful conviction cases. Tunnel vision where police just zeroed it

592
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 5: in on him from the beginning and failed to investigate

593
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 5: other leads that came in that you know, pointed to

594
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 5: other suspects in the case, and proscatorial misconduct when it

595
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 5: comes to the time of death testimony because the medical

596
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 5: examiner had given a larger window, but that opinion was

597
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 5: not turned over to.

598
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 6: The defense as is required by.

599
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 5: The case of Brady versus Maryland and the US Constitution.

600
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 5: And then of course there's the information that came you

601
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 5: know that we now know about low testament that wasn't

602
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 5: known in the nineties, and so the existence of these

603
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 5: other wrongful conviction cases the existence the knowledge that testsment,

604
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 5: fabricated evidence, and fabricated confessions in of itself is a

605
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 5: grounds for overturning the conviction.

606
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: It's so wrong. And just hearing you both recount what

607
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: you have done in this case and all of the

608
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: stones you unturned and all of the just flat out

609
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 2: lies that you have caught folks in is frankly inspiring

610
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: to hear. And you know, Herman, as you are watching

611
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: Lauren and Vanessa work and as you're learning that they're

612
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 2: finding all of this out, at some point, I'm guessing

613
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: you must have felt like you had reached a tipping point,

614
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: like all of a sudden, maybe there was going to

615
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: be a light at the end of this tunnel. When

616
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: did you have this moment of thinking, you know what,

617
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 2: this might work. They might prove me innocent. I might

618
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: get to go home.

619
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: Well, I think the big one was when the DNA

620
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: testing was done, because that was that put the car

621
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 3: in the driver's seat, that put it on the highway.

622
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: And I also want to give a shout out to

623
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 3: Lindbek exactly. I know she worked direly on my case too,

624
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 3: but you know, it seemed like with the COVID and

625
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: everything else. There was a light at the end of

626
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 3: the tunnel, but somebody kept moving the light. But then finally,

627
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 3: you know, this spring rolled around and I remember Lauren

628
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: and Lynn coming to see me and give me a

629
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: news and even though it took four months from the news, yeah,

630
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 3: that was That was the chipping point when they told

631
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 3: me that. That's when I actually began to believe that

632
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 3: I was gonna be getting out. I didn't know when,

633
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 3: but I knew I was going to happen.

634
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: And I've seen the pictures Herman. On September sixth, you

635
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: walked out of prison into a beautiful fall day, blue sky,

636
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: white clouds, with your lawyers at your side, and you

637
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: were free. Take us to that moment. What was it like?

638
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 3: Words can't describe it. I was still paranoid that they

639
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: were gonna come snag me up and say, oh, this

640
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: is just some big joke, get back in prison. It

641
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: didn't really start sinking until we got to the park

642
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: and I've seen all them people come about to support me.

643
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 3: We're there for me, having Lauren and Vanessa there, my

644
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 3: dream teme. I said, I ain't got no words to

645
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 3: describe it. Yes, like I told Lauren and Vanessa, anything

646
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: and everything they need me to do. I'll do my best.

647
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 3: That God I hold them, that.

648
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 5: I do.

649
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 3: Everybody that's similarly situated like me, Wrong is wrong and

650
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 3: until right is right, we got to keep up the fight.

651
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: Vanessa and Lauren. Where do we start? What needs to

652
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: be fixed? What's first on the list?

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Speaker 5: One thing that I thought was so remarkable about Herman's

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00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 5: exoneration was the willingness of the current States Attorney to

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00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 5: acknowledge the range of misconduct that led to his wrongful conviction.

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00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 5: And you know, if we don't acknowledge the range of

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00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 5: misconduct that leads to wrongful convictions, and we want to

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00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 5: gloss it over to just we have new DNA technology

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00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 5: or you know, this shows the systems working.

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00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 6: No, Herman's case shows the systems not working.

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00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 5: And I think that the degree of honesty about what

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00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 5: led to his wrongful conviction is what we need if

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00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 5: we're ever to really address, you know, the problems in

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00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 5: the system.

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00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: And speaking of honesty, Lauren, I want to ask you,

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00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: in particular, right what happened to Detective Testament, the one

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00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: who said that Hermann confessed but since then has been

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00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: linked to countless wrongful conviction cases.

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Speaker 4: So lu Testaman stayed on as the deputy commander of

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00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 4: the Lake High Major Crimes Task Force until I believe

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00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 4: two thousand and five, and went on to and continues

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00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 4: to do some trainings around the state of Illinois related

673
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 4: to interrogation techniques. The fact that he would be seen

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00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 4: as an expert and a source for law enforcement to

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00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 4: learn from I find astonishing. I find it appalling when

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00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 4: you have the track record that he has. I just

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00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 4: can't imagine that he would be out doing any form

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00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 4: of training. But to this day, he's out declaring that

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00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 4: his ways are the right ways, despite the trail of

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00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 4: horrors that have followed him in his career. There's no accountability,

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00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 4: there's no consequences for people who have those positions of

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00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 4: authority and destroy people's lives.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, we've reached the end of a really disturbing

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00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: and important and fundamentally motivating, an energizing story. Hearing from

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00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: Lauren and Vanessa and how they fought for Herman. And

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00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the lucky one to be able to

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00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: hear this story and bring it to our listeners, the

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00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: lucky one to be able to sit in Jason Flam's

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00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: seat to host the Wrongful Conviction podcast and to bring

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00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: out Herman's story. And so, just like Jason does at

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00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: the end of this episode, I'm going to turn off

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00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: my microphone and I'm going to let you Herman, take

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00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 2: over and deliver what Jason likes to call closing arguments.

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00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 2: You can say whatever you want, whatever comes to your mind,

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00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: about your case, about your life, about anything else. But

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00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: we're going to turn it over now to you and

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00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: give you the last word.

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00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 3: Herman, Williams, what happened to me, He's happened to a

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00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: lot of people. It's time to put a stop to it.

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00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 3: William Blackstone made a comment that always stuck near and

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00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 3: dear to my heart, which he's basically said, it's better

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00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 3: to let ten guilty men go for and the lock

703
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 3: up one innocent man. But somewhere in life it seemed

704
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 3: like it got turned around and justice system would rather

705
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 3: see ten innocent people locked up than let one guilty

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00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 3: man go free. And that's a pitiful shame. It's time

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00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: to put a stop to it. I don't know how,

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00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure anybody does other than start making

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00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 3: it right.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

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00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: Laura and I Writer. I'd like to thank our executive

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00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: producers Jason Flumm and Kevin Wortis. The senior producer for

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00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers are Lila

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00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: Robinson and Jeff Cleiburn. Our editor is Lexandra Whedy. The

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00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 2: music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated

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00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

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00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and

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00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

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00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: for Good. On all three platforms, you can follow me

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00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: on Instagram and Twitter at Laura Nyrider. Wrongful Conviction is

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Speaker 2: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with

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Speaker 2: Signal Company Number One.

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Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,

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Speaker 1: Laura and I Writer will return with another outrageous false

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00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: confession story. She'll talk to DeVante Sandford, who was just

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00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: fourteen years old when he was arrested for a quadruple homicide.

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00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: He had nothing to do do with and there's a

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00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: shocking twist that you will not want to miss, so

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00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: listen next Monday in The Wrongful Conviction podcast feed