1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: I'm the founder and CEO of this company. Anything that 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: happens in this company is my responsibility at the end 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: of the day. That's what Elizabeth Holmes told NBC in 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: an interview in But that's not what she'll be telling 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: jurors in August when she goes on trial for defrauding 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: investors in her blood testing startup Sarahnus, once the world's 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: youngest female self made billionaire and the darling of the 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: tech and media worlds with her promise to revolutionize blood testing. 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: Home spectacular fall from Grace has been recounted in books, 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: countless news stories, and an HBO documentary When is Not 12 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: This was real? FLoC I don't have many secrets, and 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: whatever secrets she does have may now be heard in 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: open court. Joining me is Anne Coughlin, a criminal law 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Virginia Law School, and prosecutors 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: want to describe holmes wealth and lavish lifestyle to travel 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: on private jets, the stays in luxury hotels and the like, 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: and they say it's to show she had a financial 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: incentive to commit fraud. But the defense says, it's really 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: to prejudice the jury. Well, of course, all evidence of 21 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: guilty is going to make the jury prenjudice in a sense, 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: but I mean that's the question that the judge had 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: to consider. One issue in the case is what was 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: Holmes's motive for doing the fraud? And the government is 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: going to show that part of her motive was to 26 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: enrich herself, and one way to do that is to 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: show the large sums of money that she was able 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: to spend on herself, both in her capacity as the 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: CEO of Saranos and then of course just as a 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: human being in the world, and so that's relevant to motive. 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: At the same time, the concern is that it's going 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: to make her look bad in the eyes of the jury, 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: and the jury is going to convict her because they 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: think she's a and thrift or because there's some kind 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: of class by its So the judge was trying to 36 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: balance these two interest the government's interest in this relevant 37 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: evidence and then the worry that the jury would be 38 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: untarily swayed against her. So he splits the difference, if 39 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: you will, and allows the prosecution to admit some evidence 40 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: of her spending spending that's related to her lifestyle as 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: the CEO, but not specific purchases she made, designer brands, 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: luxury places that she stayed, and so forth. We've heard 43 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: a lot about possible trial strategies, possible defenses she'll put on. 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: Do we know yet what her defense will be? You know, 45 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: it's very hard to tell. I've read the judges order 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: on the evidentiary emotions, the emotions in limity we call them, 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: and of course what we're trying to do is to 48 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: parse the tea leaves, especially with risk, back to what 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: homes of strategy is going to be. And it's very 50 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: hard to tell, you know. Obviously, her lawyers have tried 51 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: to keep out a lot of the evidence that the 52 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: government wants to admit, and the judge denied many of 53 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: those emotions. But at the same time, you're reading the 54 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: order trying to figure out what exactly is her theory 55 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: of defense going to be, and it is difficult to say. 56 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: It looks to me as if it's going to come 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: down to what we call a mental state argument. In 58 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: other words, to convict her for these forms of fraud, 59 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: the government has to show not nearly that she made 60 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: the false misrepresentations, but that she knew that they were 61 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: false and that she did it for the purpose of 62 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: defrauding investors. And so that's I take it. What we're 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: expecting her theories to revolve around is, Yeah, it turns 64 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: out my equipment didn't work. My blood tests were not accurate, 65 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: they were not fast. I couldn't do all of the 66 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: things that I promised, but I thought I thought that 67 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: I could. I thought that that stuff was gonna work. 68 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: I didn't know my motive was not to defraud people. 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: And it's kind of hard to see what that case 70 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: is going to look like until we know what her 71 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: story is. Is she going to try to present that 72 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: defense by calling mental health experts, so we believe that 73 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: she is. She indicated in prior filings that that was 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: going to be one of her strategies, but of course 75 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: we won't know until we get to the trial that 76 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: in fact that she's going to do that. So it's 77 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: interesting to think about what story can she tell to 78 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: negate the inference that she knew that these statements were 79 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: false and that she put them out there for the 80 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: purpose of defrauding investors and defrauding doctors and patients. What 81 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: story can she tell to suggest that she had an 82 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: innocent mind, if you will, And I mean, there's a 83 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: couple of stories that she can tell. Some of them 84 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: are suggest did by the extensive media coverage, the investigative reporting, 85 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: the documentary that suggests that you know, all along she 86 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: believed in herself and her ability to create this amazing product, 87 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: this blood testing technology that could just take a couple 88 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: of drops and then magically provide accurate results that previously 89 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: we could not do this way, and that she really 90 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: really believed that she was going to be able to 91 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: do that. And you know, on some levels she knew 92 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: that she couldn't do it today, but she was always 93 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: hoping that the breakthrough was just around the corner, right, 94 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: That she believed in herself. Um that it takes time 95 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: to get this kind of technology off the ground, And 96 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: and that would be one potential story is that she 97 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: actually thought that she could do it, even though from 98 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: what we might call an objective perspective, that belief was false. 99 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: Now that's a tough oh, because you know, the fact 100 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: that you think you can do something in the future, um, 101 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: doesn't negate the fact that you're lying about your current 102 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: ability to do it. If you see what I mean. 103 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: But that seemed to be one theory that she was 104 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: floating at one time. It doesn't seem to work as 105 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: a legal matter, but that seemed to be a story 106 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: that's been told, at least in part by the documentary. 107 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: I believe at some point there was a possibility that 108 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: she would point to her former lover and the correct 109 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: as sort of a Sengali. So now that their trials 110 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: are separate, can she just try to blame it on him? Right? 111 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: So that's the other theory. So one theory is I 112 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: actually thought I could do this. You know, I believed 113 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: in myself, and so I actually honestly believed that I 114 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: was telling the truth when I told my investors, trust me, 115 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: we will be able to do this. Um, that's one story. 116 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: The other story is that she made the false statements 117 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: she knew they were false. But the claim would be 118 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: I did this out of fear, out of trauma, out 119 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: of duress. I was under the spell of this powerful man, 120 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: and I was doing it again, not because I wanted 121 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: to defraud people, but because I was terrified of him 122 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: or was unable to resist his power. Those kinds of claims, Now, 123 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: that's a really tricky claim, because the claim would then 124 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: be that she was acting under some kind of psychological duress, 125 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: and those are very tough claims to satisfy. Notice, in effect, 126 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,239 Speaker 1: she would be conceding. Yep. I knew that my lover 127 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: and I were making false statements, and I knew that 128 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: they were being used for the purpose of defrauding folks. 129 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: But I went along with it only because I was 130 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: suffering from the effects of his arrest. And it's just 131 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: a very hard claim to make. But that was the 132 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: suggestion in some of her earlier filings that that was 133 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: going to be her theory. And yes, now that the 134 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: cases are severed, they're being tried separately. I take it 135 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: that each of these characters can point the finger at 136 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: the other. She can say I was doing it under 137 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: his arrest. He could say, I take it. I believe her. 138 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: I believed her when she She was the one who 139 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: came up with this company, she was the one who 140 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: developed the technology, and I believed her representations to be true. 141 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: She is pregnant, which is one reason that the trial 142 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: was put off. So when she's tried on August thirty one, 143 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: she'll be a new mother. Will that have any effect 144 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: on the jury. Will the jury either glean that or 145 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: will they be told that June. To my eyes, one 146 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: of the most fascinating features of this trial are what 147 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: I would call the gender to ask x um, the 148 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: fact that Elizabeth Holmes is a woman is one of 149 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: the reasons that we, I think, are so fascinated by 150 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: the case. And you know, ultimately these two trials, we 151 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: have this really long history of grister's and swindlers and 152 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: con men, if you will, in this country. But just 153 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: as the phrase con men confidence man suggests, the defendants 154 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: usually are men. And so the fact that Holmes is 155 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: a woman really changes the trajectory, the arc of the 156 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: narratives that we might tell and then might accept when 157 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: thinking about her guilt. So it's just completely fascinating. Yes, 158 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: the idea that she is pregnant, that she is a 159 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: new mother. Somehow she'll you know, she'll have some kind 160 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: of maternal halo around her. People may be inclined to 161 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: be more sympathetic to her, less inclined to see her 162 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: as a villain, you know, less inclined to hear as 163 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: the mastermind of this criminal enterprise. So all of those 164 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: things are going to be on the table in a 165 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: case like this. So, on the one hand, there are 166 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: studies and certainly plenty of anecdotal evidence as well as 167 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: fictional stories that show that juries, courts, law enforcement may 168 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: be inclined to be more lenient when women are involved. 169 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: Women aren't viewed as being as dangerous as men, right. 170 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: But at the same time, we can find that in 171 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: some cases there's a tremendous amount of you know, animosity 172 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: or additional hostility towards female criminals. And it just so 173 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: depends on the kinds of stories that we tell, you know, 174 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: will she emerge from this trial as you know, a 175 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: young woman who fell into the clutches of this older 176 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: lover who you know, had influence on her. Um. She 177 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: was this up and rising star who was trying to make, 178 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: you know, make it good in this dairy masculine world. 179 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: And and somehow we should see her as the innocent 180 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: um who fell into this difficult place and now she's 181 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: a new mother, and how could we punish someone like her? 182 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: Or will we see her as a scheming adventuress. You 183 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: know that that's the other side of the coin, someone 184 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: who was trying to use her femininity to you know, 185 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: forge these relationships with these powerful investors who are men 186 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: um So she's taking advantage of them, not just through 187 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: the lies that she told about Thereinos, but by using 188 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: her femininity as well as a kind of power over them. 189 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: So it's really hard to know how the story is 190 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: going to unfold the trial. But the fact that she's 191 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: a mother, Yes, we revere mothers in this culture, and 192 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: there may well be a feeling that she doesn't deserve 193 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: to be punished as badly because she's a mom. On 194 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: the other hand, people may may turn on her and think, wow, 195 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, you are behaving in a way that contradicts 196 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: the type of behavior that we expect from from women 197 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: and especially from others. So it's really really hard to tell. 198 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: I wonder if she'll take the stand in her own defense. 199 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: So that's the million dollar question that I had as well. 200 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for raising it. One of the 201 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: things that will be fascinating about this trial is if 202 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: there is a trial. So many of the cases that 203 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: you know go off by plea buggins, and that could 204 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: still happen in this case. But if the case goes 205 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: to trial, it will be it's potentially going to be 206 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: a spectacular one. And the big question is will she 207 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: take the stand? And from where I sit right now, 208 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: it's hard to see how she could imagine that she'd 209 00:12:53,640 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: prevail without taking the stand. The story that would exonerate her, 210 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: or the story that would create a reasonable doubt about 211 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: her guilt and lead a jury to acquit is going 212 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: to be a story about her mental state, a story 213 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: about what she knew, what she thought, what she intended 214 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: over the course of the years that the government alleges 215 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: that she was scheming and lying and basically stealing people's money, 216 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: What was in her mind. And we draw inferences about 217 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: what's in people's minds from facts, you know, from their conducts, 218 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: from the money they made, from the spending they did, 219 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: for the messages they sent at the time, from the 220 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: meetings they offended. So all of that stuff is going 221 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: to be a piece of it. But it's really hard 222 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: to imagine how the case could be successful without her 223 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: taking the stand. I guess I'm tipping my hand right 224 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: now and saying that from where I sent, the government's 225 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: evidence looks overwhelming. Thanks. And that's Professor and Coughlin of 226 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: the University of Virginia Law School. And that's it for 227 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can 228 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: always at the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. 229 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at 230 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast slash Law. I'm 231 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: June Grasso. Thanks so much for listening, and please turn 232 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: into The Bloomberg Law Show every week night at ten 233 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: pm Eastern right here on Bloomberg Radio.