WEBVTT - 'Davos Man' Book Examines Economic Inequality

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>pandemic has been pretty good for a small group of people, billionaires.

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<v Speaker 1>According to the World Bank, the world's wealthiest accumulated at

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<v Speaker 1>four point one trillion dollars during the pandemic. Well, at

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<v Speaker 1>the same time, one million people around the world fell

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<v Speaker 1>into extreme poverty. About two thousand, seven hundred and fifty billionaires.

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<v Speaker 1>They now control about three point five percent of the

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<v Speaker 1>world's wealth. So very time we read for us to

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<v Speaker 1>be joined by Peter S. Goodman. He's global economics correspondent

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<v Speaker 1>at the New York Times. He's also the author of

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<v Speaker 1>davos Man, How the Billionaires Devoured the World. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>new book that came out earlier this month. Peter, great

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<v Speaker 1>to have you with us. How are you great to

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<v Speaker 1>be here? Thanks for having me guys, Yeah, we're delighted

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<v Speaker 1>to chat with you. There's a lot to get to

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<v Speaker 1>We got quite a bit of time. Um, but I

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<v Speaker 1>want to start with the title here. So what is

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<v Speaker 1>it davos Man. Well, davos Man is his term coined

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<v Speaker 1>by the political scientist Samuel Huntington's back in two thousand four,

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<v Speaker 1>he was using it to describe people who go to

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<v Speaker 1>the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, This glittering gathering

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<v Speaker 1>of the world's most powerful people, the billionaire class, heads

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<v Speaker 1>of state, a few celebrities wandering around now and again.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm using it to describe not only forum participants and billionaires,

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<v Speaker 1>but a special kind of billionaire who would have us

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<v Speaker 1>believe that their interests are our interests collectively. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>this idea that if we organize our economies and our

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<v Speaker 1>societies around sending more wealth to the people who already

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<v Speaker 1>have most of it, the magic of trickle down economics

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<v Speaker 1>will take care of the rest and we will all prosper.

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<v Speaker 1>We've been running an open air experiment in this idea

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<v Speaker 1>that I refer to as the cosmic lie for the

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<v Speaker 1>last half century, and the results are not at all pretty.

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<v Speaker 1>This is an idea that Davos man uses really to

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<v Speaker 1>protect himself against democracies trying to redistribute the wealth in

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<v Speaker 1>a fair way. Well, you choose five of these Davos

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<v Speaker 1>meant to to highlight throughout the book. Jeff Bezos, Stephen Schwartzman,

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<v Speaker 1>Larry Think, Jamie Diamond, Mark, Benny Off names that our

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<v Speaker 1>audience is certainly familiar with. Why these five folks, and

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<v Speaker 1>look and they're all men. Yeah, well, look, in reality,

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<v Speaker 1>Davos man is mostly male, mostly American, mostly white. There

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<v Speaker 1>are lots of exceptions, but that's that's the rule. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. Look, I could have picked almost anybody within

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<v Speaker 1>the billionaire class who goes to Davos and come up

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<v Speaker 1>with largely the same book. I take these guys because

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a cross section of finance and tech. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And two of them, Benny Off and Larry Fink in particular,

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<v Speaker 1>are champions of this idea, stakeholder capitalism, you know, much heralded,

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<v Speaker 1>much celebrated by much of the business press, this notion

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<v Speaker 1>that Milton Freedman is um is over and that companies

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<v Speaker 1>are no longer just organized to return profit to shareholders.

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<v Speaker 1>Now they're catering to what they all stakeholders, that's labor,

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<v Speaker 1>local communities, social aims. And you know, I argue in

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<v Speaker 1>the book that the pandemic was really the first big

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<v Speaker 1>test of stakeholder capitalism in the In the summer of

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen a bunch of CEOs coalescing at the Business Roundtable

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<v Speaker 1>then headed by Jamie Diamond, actually signed off on this

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<v Speaker 1>new statement of a purpose of a corporation. And I argue,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think the pandemic makes pretty clear that they

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<v Speaker 1>used this pledge of stakeholder capitalism as a way to say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we've got this. You don't need to tax us,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't need to regulate us. We you can outsource

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<v Speaker 1>to us with confidence. Uh, the solving of the world's

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<v Speaker 1>biggest problems like climate change, like gender and racial inequality,

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<v Speaker 1>and the pandemic has shown that that was really a

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<v Speaker 1>crude exercise in public relations. You know, Peter, It's really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting because it's just coming off a conversation we just

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<v Speaker 1>had about E s G investing, which we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>a lot here at Bloomberg. And there's so much money

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<v Speaker 1>going into I'm sure you know, into the world of

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<v Speaker 1>E s G to the point where it's becoming, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a very significant percentage of overall assets that are out there. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>how do we kind of change this? Because I think

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of investors who think they're doing good

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<v Speaker 1>by tapping into E s G and yet it kind

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<v Speaker 1>of is many would argue it's not. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 1>need more transparency, like there's Look, there's nothing wrong with

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<v Speaker 1>the idea of stakeholder capitalism or e s G. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, if companies want to actually try to solve

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<v Speaker 1>social aims and they're being transparent about that, and some

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<v Speaker 1>investors don't want to ride on that particular boat, they

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<v Speaker 1>don't have to put their money there, that's fine. But

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<v Speaker 1>we need a way to actually test these claims instead

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<v Speaker 1>of just you know, taking it. I mean, I mean here,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, take a guy like Mark Manyo, who's the

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<v Speaker 1>guy who does a lot of philanthropy. This is the

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<v Speaker 1>CEO of Salesforce, big Silicon Valley tech company. He actually

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<v Speaker 1>says at Davo's last year virtual gathering because they couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>meet because of the pandemic, CEOs are the real heroes

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<v Speaker 1>of the pandemic. I mean he's not talking about frontline

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<v Speaker 1>medical workers. He's not talking about parents dealing with kids

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<v Speaker 1>cooped up dealing with business learning, or essential workers delivering

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<v Speaker 1>our food CEO. And he says, uh, you know, it

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<v Speaker 1>was the CEOs of companies who gave us vaccines and

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<v Speaker 1>credits that staved off bankruptcy, right, right, specifically said the

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<v Speaker 1>government didn't save you, we save You were talking about

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<v Speaker 1>how Mark Bennioff of Salesforce UH last year at the

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<v Speaker 1>Virtual Davos event, talked about how the CEOs the were

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<v Speaker 1>the real heroes. Um, and you write about that in

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<v Speaker 1>your book. You also you engaged with with Mark Bennioff

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<v Speaker 1>for this book. You spoke to him, UM, And I

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<v Speaker 1>know I'm wondering what the productive conversation is around that,

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<v Speaker 1>Like what did he tell you when you when faced

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<v Speaker 1>with your criticism. Yeah, he seemed to be into the

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<v Speaker 1>back and forth, which I think is an indicator of

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<v Speaker 1>how you know, these guys use their participation in what

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<v Speaker 1>they call multi stakeholder dialogues. They love to go to

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<v Speaker 1>Davos and engage in these earnest conversations about climate change

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<v Speaker 1>and race in class, and and they just don't like

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<v Speaker 1>to actually do anything. They're not into sacrifice. They're into

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<v Speaker 1>finding wind wind solutions to every problem and using Davos

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<v Speaker 1>to to you know, signal their virtues. So Benny Off

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<v Speaker 1>will talk openly about anything. I mean, I've been to

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<v Speaker 1>Davos and seeing CEOs like benning Off go off and

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<v Speaker 1>simulate the Syrian refugee experience. You know, they'll be blindfolded

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<v Speaker 1>and let around in the dark while people are shouting

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<v Speaker 1>at them in a language they don't understand, demanding papers.

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<v Speaker 1>And then they all congratulate themselves to their empathy and

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<v Speaker 1>they go off and eat truffles and drink champagne and

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<v Speaker 1>a banquet, you know, hosted by some global bank. Benny

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<v Speaker 1>Off was was very willing to get into it. But

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<v Speaker 1>the status quo reigns with Davos man. How do we

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<v Speaker 1>work through this? Tim and I talked about this a

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<v Speaker 1>lot Peter about I certainly feel fortunate, but I am

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<v Speaker 1>the granddaughter of immigrants who came with nothing, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and I've seen or heard about parents going through the depression,

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<v Speaker 1>Like how do I But I've worked really hard to

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<v Speaker 1>achieve a certain amount, and you know, not on the

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<v Speaker 1>level of billionaires. I understand that, but I feel very torn. Certainly, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>there are people who are just in the equity market.

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<v Speaker 1>So therefore o n case who have benefited during this pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>We're not billionaires, but we have benefited. Others have not.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's the productive Like Tim talks about, what's the

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<v Speaker 1>productive conversation that we need to be having Is it

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<v Speaker 1>with lawmakers? Is it with CEOs? With it? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we do this at Bloomberg. We have these conversations and

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<v Speaker 1>get to some uncomfortable areas. So how do we get

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<v Speaker 1>to a better point here, or what's what is it

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<v Speaker 1>that we need to be asking of these CEOs. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't really need anything radical, uh, And we don't

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<v Speaker 1>really need to ask much of the CEOs. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>they can go on and maximize profits and look for

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<v Speaker 1>innovation and ruther companies. That's all good and well. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean I'm not I'm not suggesting that we ought to

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<v Speaker 1>expect that they're going to be what they tell us

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<v Speaker 1>they are, these like agents of social progress, their CEOs,

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<v Speaker 1>let them bring your companies. Those of us who are

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<v Speaker 1>living in democracy ought to be demanding the things that

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<v Speaker 1>we used to have. Progressive taxation, labor power so that

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<v Speaker 1>workers can actually get a commensurate share of the games,

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<v Speaker 1>and we need any trust enforcement. And this is not

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of radical agenda. This is like what we

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<v Speaker 1>had in the years after the Second World War to

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<v Speaker 1>till the mid nineties seventies. And you know, we could

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<v Speaker 1>do that again. It's it's not easy because davos Man

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<v Speaker 1>has formidable apparatus that he uses to fight off any

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<v Speaker 1>attempts to redistribution, any any attempts had changed. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>you know, that's a proven solution, uh, in terms of,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, generating economic games that are helpful to more people.

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<v Speaker 1>What about a wealth tax, Peter, What has your reporting

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<v Speaker 1>told you about the efficacy of a wealth tax? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got to have a wealth tax, and anything short

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<v Speaker 1>of a wealth tax just simply isn't fair, And then

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<v Speaker 1>most people feel like the game is working. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Bezos, his income is eighty three thousand dollars a year.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a salary from Amazon on He's paid about as

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<v Speaker 1>much as a public school teacher in California. If we

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<v Speaker 1>tax income, then we live in a world where Jeff

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<v Speaker 1>Bezos Steve Schwartzman, who's also a main character in my focus,

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<v Speaker 1>worth thirty five billion dollars. That these guys are gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be paying less in their income and wealth to the

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<v Speaker 1>government than the people who are scrubbing their toilets. And

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<v Speaker 1>the result of that isn't simply that we can't finance

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<v Speaker 1>government programs that it turns out we actually need, especially

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<v Speaker 1>in an emergency like a pandemic. It's also that we

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<v Speaker 1>then live in a democracy where large numbers of people

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<v Speaker 1>have legitimately concluded that their needs and interests, their ability

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<v Speaker 1>to support their families just doesn't count very much for

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<v Speaker 1>the for the powers to be. And you can draw

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<v Speaker 1>a direct line between that and the rage that we

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<v Speaker 1>feel in American life into the January six insurrection, the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that huge numbers of people won't take these COVID vaccines.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, a lot of this is just foundationally. The

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<v Speaker 1>people don't believe in the system, and not because they're crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not condoning where they go with their conspiracy theories

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<v Speaker 1>and their asis tropes, but they're They're vulnerable to political

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<v Speaker 1>opportunists who will cater to their worst instincts. And unless

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<v Speaker 1>we deal with inequality, we're stuck with that. So should

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<v Speaker 1>we say, well, see what's hard is we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>wealth versus income, right, and so how do we really

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<v Speaker 1>shore up and is there the political will I guess

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<v Speaker 1>as as well to shore up the income for most

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<v Speaker 1>Americans so that we can reduce some of these gaps

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<v Speaker 1>that are out there. Well, if there is political will,

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is that we don't have a democracy in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of who's got to seat at the table. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>valvos Man hires lobbyists the way most of us hire

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<v Speaker 1>one accountant to do our taxes. If we can even

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<v Speaker 1>afford that davos Man has rigged the game through you know,

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<v Speaker 1>threats to ballot access through deregulation, such that davos Man's

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<v Speaker 1>votes count at the table much more than everybody else.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's I'm not saying it's like easy to do

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<v Speaker 1>a wealth taxed. Lots of people have tried it and

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<v Speaker 1>it hasn't happened, but it actually pulls pretty well. And

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<v Speaker 1>when people are educated about how the tax system works,

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<v Speaker 1>and let's face it, it's not, by accident incredibly complicated,

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<v Speaker 1>which makes it, you know, right for manipulation by people

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<v Speaker 1>who actually can hire lawyers and accountants and lobbyists to

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<v Speaker 1>help them through it. When people are informed, they see

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<v Speaker 1>the inequity in the current system where the billionaires are

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<v Speaker 1>just paying much less as a share of their wealth

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<v Speaker 1>than everybody else. So what would you say to somebody says, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>wait a second, someone like Jeff Bezos, he pulled himself

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<v Speaker 1>up by his bootstraps. He created Amazon, on his own.

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<v Speaker 1>He deserves to have as much money as Amazon has

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<v Speaker 1>made him. Jeff Bezos does deserve to be very wealthy.

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<v Speaker 1>He had a fantastic idea. He's revolutionized commerce. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>where would we be without e commerce in the midst

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<v Speaker 1>of the pandemic. I'm not here to demonize people like

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Bezos, but Jeff Bezos is a beneficiary of infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>Right he uses roads paid for about tax payer, the

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<v Speaker 1>smart people working at his company or ed vacated in

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<v Speaker 1>schools that are financed by the taxpayer. And Jeff Bezos

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<v Speaker 1>is a beneficiary of trade deals that have been shaped

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<v Speaker 1>by lobbyists over time to return wealth mostly to people

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<v Speaker 1>like Jeff Bezos. Moreover, you know, he's making all this

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<v Speaker 1>wealth not just while his warehouse workers aren't prospering, but

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<v Speaker 1>because they're not prospering. Most of his warehouse workers have

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<v Speaker 1>no pandemic protection in the first wave of the pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying he's got to pay his fair share

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<v Speaker 1>while he's rightfully capitalizing on a great idea. And we

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<v Speaker 1>would love to put you in a roundtable with all

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<v Speaker 1>these guys and just continue that discussion. Peter Goodman, good Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll work on that. Peter Goodman, global economic correspondent New

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<v Speaker 1>York to at the New York Times, on the phone

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<v Speaker 1>from New York City, his new book, davos Man, How

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<v Speaker 1>the Billionaires Devoured the World. It's all relevant to the

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<v Speaker 1>broader conversation that we've been having over the last couple

0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.760
<v Speaker 1>of years. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. Really good book. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>and not just saying that because he was my old

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<v Speaker 1>editor by the way, at hupost. Just a little