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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is

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Speaker 1: a holiday week for us, so today we have another

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Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is going to be a

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Speaker 1: case of the urine sweats. This is an episode that

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Speaker 1: originally published eleven, nineteen, twenty twenty four, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into the avian habit of urinating and or

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Speaker 1: defecating onto the scaly parts of one's own legs. Let's

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Speaker 1: find out all about it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff

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Speaker 3: to Blow Your Mind, we're going to be talking about

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Speaker 3: a concept called euro hydrosis. I'm not going to do

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Speaker 3: any see roundabout introduction. I think we owe it to

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Speaker 3: you to cut right to the chase, which is that

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Speaker 3: today we're going to be talking about the biological reasons

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Speaker 3: an animal might want to poop and pee all over itself. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is gonna be one of those episodes. So

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Speaker 1: if you're not in the right headspace for this discussion,

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Speaker 1: you know, come back and listen to the episode another time.

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Speaker 1: But I think most of you are probably on board

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Speaker 1: for this.

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Speaker 3: So before we get to the reasons why, I think

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Speaker 3: we should start with just a kind of visual introduction

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Speaker 3: and observation, and it is that if you look at

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Speaker 3: some long legged birds strutting around in their natural habitat,

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Speaker 3: maybe wandering in the grass or on the rocks, foraging

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Speaker 3: for food or getting ready for mating, you will sometimes

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Speaker 3: see their legs covered in a pale residue. And Rob,

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Speaker 3: I'm attaching some images for you to look at here

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Speaker 3: in the outline, but people at home, you may want

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Speaker 3: to look these up for yourself when I give you

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Speaker 3: the names. So the examples I'm about to mention would

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Speaker 3: be three stork species. One is Seconia episcopus. This is

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Speaker 3: the wooly necked stork. Another one is Micteria leucocephala, which

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Speaker 3: is the painted stork, and another is Leptoptalus creminifer, the

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Speaker 3: marrabou stork. Now, these are all storks with long, thin legs,

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Speaker 3: I would say very roughly, you know, body length or

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Speaker 3: longer standing in an upright posture, and in the pictures

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Speaker 3: I've provided for you, Rob, these come from a paper

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Speaker 3: that we're going to talk about in just a minute,

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Speaker 3: you can see in patches that the legs and feet

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Speaker 3: have a natural pigmentation. They've got maybe a gray or

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Speaker 3: brown or black color on the skin of the legs

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Speaker 3: and feet. But in all three of these images, the

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Speaker 3: legs are mostly covered in some kind of white substance.

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Speaker 3: And if you had to guess what it is, what

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Speaker 3: would you think it is? Indeed, what you're probably thinking,

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Speaker 3: it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's not some sort of a glittery bomb, right, it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's not any kind of as we've discussed, it's not

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Speaker 1: clothing that they're wearing here over their their long legs.

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Speaker 3: It's something else, that's right. It is the bird's poop. Technically,

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Speaker 3: in mammal terms, you might want to say it is

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Speaker 3: both urine and feces, because birds deal with their excreta

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Speaker 3: in a kind of different way than mammals do. They

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Speaker 3: basically do it all in one go. It's not a

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Speaker 3: separate poop and p It's all one thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the Glory of the Cloaca, which long time listeners

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind have a fair amount

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Speaker 1: of familiarity with, though I don't think we've done an

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Speaker 1: episode on the kloaca recently. An old episode on the cloaca.

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Speaker 3: Remember it's a classic from many years ago. I think

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Speaker 3: you and Julie did some cloaca.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then it's come up, you know, it

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Speaker 1: comes up anytime we're potentially talking about reproduction and digestion,

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Speaker 1: when you know, concerning birds and other animals. Sometimes it

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Speaker 1: pops up in discussions of prehistoric cree as well.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So with these animals, with the bird or

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Speaker 3: reptile lineage, you're going to be doing digestive waste, renal

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Speaker 3: system waste and reproduction is just all going in and

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Speaker 3: out the same hole, the kloaeca. So anyway, I got

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Speaker 3: interested in the concept of eurohydrosis, the idea that birds

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Speaker 3: would be intentionally having an adaptation to excrete waste all

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Speaker 3: over their own bodies, all over their own legs, and

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Speaker 3: so I was looking for scientific sources about this. So

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Speaker 3: I found a paper from twenty twenty one that lays

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Speaker 3: it all out pretty well. This is a paper in

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Speaker 3: the journal Scientific Reports, and I apologize if I pronounced

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Speaker 3: any of the author's names wrong. Here. It is by

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Speaker 3: Julian Kabeo Verguel, Andrea Soriano Redondo Auxiliadora Viegas Jose A.

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Speaker 3: Maseroje M. Sanchez Guzman and Jorge S. Gutierrez, and the

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Speaker 3: paper is called eurohydrosis as an overlooked cooling mechanism in

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Speaker 3: long legged birds. So basically all animals on Earth need

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Speaker 3: to regulate their internal body temperature, and there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of reasons for this. Of course, we're all basically

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Speaker 3: different types of water bags moving around and reproducing ourselves.

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Speaker 3: So at the extremes you need to manage yourself as

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Speaker 3: a water bag. You need to prevent your water content

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Speaker 3: from freezing solid or turning into steam. But beyond those extremes,

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Speaker 3: animals also need to keep their body temperature within a

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Speaker 3: fairly narrow range to protect cellular function and facilitate the

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Speaker 3: chemistry of metabolism, like there are certain enzymes in the

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Speaker 3: body that don't work right if they're outside of a

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Speaker 3: certain temperature range, and so forth. And there are broadly

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Speaker 3: two different ways that an animal species can be oriented

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Speaker 3: with respect to the regulation of body temperature. These are

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Speaker 3: ectothermy and endothermy. Endotherms also known as warm blooded animals

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Speaker 3: generate their own internal heat from metabolism, so they burn

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Speaker 3: food energy and use homeostatic mechanisms like shivering and sweating

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Speaker 3: and so forth to keep body temperature within a very

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Speaker 3: tight range. Mammals and birds are generally endotherms. They primarily

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Speaker 3: regulate their temperature with internal mechanisms. Ectotherms, on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: sometimes called cold blooded animals, regulate their body temperature mostly

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Speaker 3: with the help of the outside environment. So these are

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Speaker 3: the animals that you would think of as sun basking

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Speaker 3: or cooling in water in order to manage their body temperature.

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Speaker 3: Ectothermic animals include most reptiles, amphibians, and fish. Though to

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Speaker 3: be clear, the cut between ectothermy and endothermy is not

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Speaker 3: a clean cut. There are a lot of kind of

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Speaker 3: blurry cases in between, just sort of a generally helpful distinction. Now,

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Speaker 3: there are advantages to each of these major strategies. We

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Speaker 3: could come back and go deep on this someday, and

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Speaker 3: we've talked about it somewhat in the past, I believe,

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Speaker 3: But a very simplified version is that indotherms animals that

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Speaker 3: primarily rate their own heat through metabolism, they can do

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Speaker 3: a lot more. They can sustain more muscular activity, they

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Speaker 3: can grow more powerful brains, they can survive in a

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Speaker 3: greater range of different climates, you know you don't usually

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Speaker 3: see like reptiles and extremely cold climates and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But they also require a lot more food. Ectotherms are

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Speaker 3: efficient because they don't leave the motor running all the time.

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Speaker 3: They can usually go much longer in between meals and

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Speaker 3: can survive rough patches by kind of going dormant. Now,

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Speaker 3: because this paper is focused on birds, we're in the

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Speaker 3: domain of the indotherms, the warm blooded animals that primarily

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Speaker 3: generate heat through their own internal metabolic mechanisms. But even

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Speaker 3: endotherms can't regulate everything internally, and the authors begin the

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Speaker 3: paper by discussing various ways that endothermic animals do still

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Speaker 3: have to protect themselves from external heat stress, from getting

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Speaker 3: too hot because the environment is too hot. And some

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Speaker 3: of these defense mechanisms against overheating are physiological and some

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Speaker 3: are what you'd probably call behavioral, and the authors say

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Speaker 3: that typically the first response, the first priority response, in

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Speaker 3: the responses you go through when you're encountering heat stress

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Speaker 3: is behavioral, and this could involve the selection of cooler microclimates,

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Speaker 3: going to cooler places from warmer places, or what they

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Speaker 3: call heat dissipating behaviors, And there are many different kinds

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Speaker 3: of heat dissipating behaviors in nature. This could mean something

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Speaker 3: as simple and as familiar to us as reducing physical activity.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's hot out, you stop moving around so much,

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Speaker 3: or moving out of the sun and into the shade,

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Speaker 3: or things like getting in the water for a swim.

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Speaker 3: Being submerged, even in what feels like fairly warm water,

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Speaker 3: actually removes heat from the body quite efficiently. The author

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Speaker 3: is mentioned later in the paper that the thermal conductivity of

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Speaker 3: water is twenty five times that of air. So you're

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Speaker 3: you might have had this experience before where you know,

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Speaker 3: even in a pool that doesn't feel very cold, the

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Speaker 3: water feels nice and warm. You spend too long in

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Speaker 3: the pool, you really will start to chill out and

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Speaker 3: you need to get out of the water and warm up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can basically could basically like roleplay all

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Speaker 1: of these like you almost have like an innate pull

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Speaker 1: towards these various thermoregulation options. You know, if we were

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Speaker 1: to position you, say, you know, a nice pool patio

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Speaker 1: on a hot summer day, what are some of your options?

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Speaker 1: You know, do you choose the umbrella, do you choose

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Speaker 1: the pool, do you choose the shade of the house

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Speaker 1: and so forth.

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Speaker 3: That's right. And then there's another class of heat dissipating

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Speaker 3: behaviors which could be called like posteral adjustments, and this

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Speaker 3: could be just positioning the body in different ways to

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Speaker 3: maximize how much heat it is getting rid of. One

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Speaker 3: example is spreading out the body tissues to increase your

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Speaker 3: surface area. So think about how when you're cold, you

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Speaker 3: kind of try to s shrink down, don't you. You

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Speaker 3: try to shrink your body into a ball and reduce

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Speaker 3: your surface area. You might hug your arms into yourself

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Speaker 3: and kind of kind of crouch. But in the heat,

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Speaker 3: if you're overheating, you don't want your legs touching each other,

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Speaker 3: and you don't want your arms touching your body. You

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Speaker 3: want to splay out maximally to have maximal surface area,

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Speaker 3: which means heat can escape your body with the greatest efficiency.

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Speaker 1: Or you might want to fan out your neural spine

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Speaker 1: sale for a yes, or if you want to regulate

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Speaker 1: your temperature that way. If you have a neural spine sale,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to presume everyone has one.

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Speaker 3: Or if you're a bird, you might want to fold

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Speaker 3: unfold your wings, hold your wings out to let you

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Speaker 3: know heat radiate that way. You know, different animals exactly

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Speaker 3: the spine sales. This is a great example. You know,

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Speaker 3: different animals have different ways of increasing their surface area

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Speaker 3: and radiating more heat. Now, if the endothermic animal cannot

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Speaker 3: escape heat stress with just the behavioral responses, it has

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Speaker 3: to switch gears into what the authors call rapid physiological adjustments.

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Speaker 3: This is things that the body does we would usually

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Speaker 3: think of as involuntarily to try to remove heat faster.

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Speaker 3: And these can vary across different types of animals, but

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Speaker 3: it could include things like in humans, sweating, in other animals,

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Speaker 3: panting or increasing the breathing rate to dissipate more heat

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Speaker 3: from the lungs and the respiratory system. Now, the authors

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Speaker 3: point out that in birds, one of the most common

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Speaker 3: physiological mechanisms for removing heat is what they call panting.

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Speaker 3: I've seen some sources reject that terminology, maybe because they

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Speaker 3: think it incorrectly implies it's the exact same thing that

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Speaker 3: dogs do, But it's similar either way. For birds, panting

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Speaker 3: involves rapid breathing with an open mouth. They might hold

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Speaker 3: the bill open and breathe in and out very rapidly

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Speaker 3: to purge heat through evaporation from the warm, moist tissues

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Speaker 3: inside the mouth, throat, and lungs. This is also sometimes

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Speaker 3: accompanied by another response called gooler fluttering u laar fluttering,

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Speaker 3: which means like they would, the bird will vigorously vibrate

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Speaker 3: the muscles and membranes inside its throat while panting to

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Speaker 3: further increase evaporation and the purging of heat. Now, these

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Speaker 3: physiological adjustments, they do work. They will purge heat from

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Speaker 3: the body and help avoid hyperthermia, help the animal cool down,

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Speaker 3: but they're also very costly. They're costly and thus risky

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Speaker 3: to the animal because they can waste important resources like

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Speaker 3: energy and water. Birds can lose a lot of water

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Speaker 3: through panting and fluttering, and in addition, the authors mentioned

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Speaker 3: that panting in birds can force potentially undesirable changes in

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Speaker 3: blood chemistry. So, if you're an animal in the wild

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Speaker 3: fighting for survival, you know you have these physiological mechanisms,

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Speaker 3: these sort of rapid body adjustments that you can rely

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Speaker 3: on if you have to, but you would like to

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Speaker 3: avoid them. You would like to avoid going into these

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Speaker 3: wasteful physiological protections against heat if you can help it,

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Speaker 3: and the more efficient behavioral methods should be your first

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Speaker 3: line of defense. So for a human analogy, it's usually

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Speaker 3: it's going to be less costly to your body to

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Speaker 3: just get into the shade and get out of the

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Speaker 3: heat than it is to start sweating bullets. In their introduction,

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Speaker 3: the authors of this paper introduce a concept from zoology

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Speaker 3: called heat dissipation limit theory, which argues that in indotherms,

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Speaker 3: the problem of how to deal with excess heat produced

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Speaker 3: by metabolism limits how much energy you can take in

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Speaker 3: and by consequence, limits reproductive output. So the author is

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Speaker 3: right that under this theory, heat dissipation behaviors could really

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Speaker 3: be crucial to the evolutionary success of a species because

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Speaker 3: they allow more chemical energy to be devoted to foraging

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Speaker 3: and reproduction and things like that, rather than to physiological

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Speaker 3: mechanisms simply for getting excess heat out of the body.

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Speaker 3: And the author is mentioned that the sort of research

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Speaker 3: context of this paper is that thermoregulatory behaviors and animals

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Speaker 3: are increasingly being studied because of the current and future

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Speaker 3: increases in heat stress on wildlife due to global warming,

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Speaker 3: where the ability of an animal species to deal with

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Speaker 3: heat stress without resorting to costly physiological mechanisms may be

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Speaker 3: the difference between adaptation and extinction, So this is something

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Speaker 3: that is probably just going to get more and more

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Speaker 3: attention from people who study wildlife, especially as the heat

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Speaker 3: stresses of environments are changing more rapidly. Now, another interesting

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Speaker 3: fact about how birds protect themselves against overheating has to

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Speaker 3: do with what the authors call quote unfeathered and well

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Speaker 3: vascularized appendages, meaning parts of the body that are bare

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Speaker 3: so not covered in feathers, and parts of the body

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Speaker 3: containing a lot of blood vessels. And examples here would

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Speaker 3: be the bill, the bird's bill around the mouth, and

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Speaker 3: the legs. Because these parts of the body are typically

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Speaker 3: not insulated by feathers and lots of blood flows through them,

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Speaker 3: and for these two reasons, these parts of the body

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Speaker 3: can be utilized pretty well as what the authors call

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Speaker 3: thermal radiators to purge excess heat, and this is especially

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Speaker 3: the case for storks. The storks belong to the in

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Speaker 3: scientific classification, they belong to the family Sickniady, which storks

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Speaker 3: typically have long, bare legs and most often live in

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Speaker 3: warm or hot climates with little shade. So storks have

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Speaker 3: an internal mechanism for making use of these thermal radiators

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Speaker 3: in the body for making use of the long legs

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Speaker 3: for temperature management. Storks can actually alter the blood flow

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Speaker 3: to their legs, constricting the blood vessels down the when

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Speaker 3: it's cold out so less blood is flowing through and

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Speaker 3: there's less heat exchange, and then dilating the blood vessels

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Speaker 3: in the legs when it's hot, promoting more heat loss

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Speaker 3: from the body down in the legs. But in the

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Speaker 3: case of storks, the use of the legs as thermal

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Speaker 3: radiators goes one step further, and here's where we get

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Speaker 3: back to the topic for today. Eurohydrosis the author's right quote. Notably,

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Speaker 3: storks can deliberately excrete onto their legs when exposed to

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Speaker 3: increasing environmental temperatures, a phenomenon known as eurohydrosis. When overheated,

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Speaker 3: storks repeatedly direct liquid xcrita toward their legs, only one

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Speaker 3: leg at a time, which usually evaporates before reaching the toes.

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Speaker 3: So it's hard to imagine this from a human perspective,

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Speaker 3: but the more you think about it, the more it

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Speaker 3: does make biological sense. Imagine you're out in the sun

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Speaker 3: on a blazing summer day. The heat's really getting to you.

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Speaker 3: You have a few options to cope. You could stop

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Speaker 3: moving around and fly down in a chair. You could

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Speaker 3: get out of the sun and into the shade. You

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Speaker 3: could hop into a pool. Or if those options are

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Speaker 3: not really available to you at the moment, you could

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Speaker 3: poop all over your own legs, one leg at a time,

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Speaker 3: and then hope that that helps cool you off.

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Speaker 1: Granted, there are certain consistency challenges here. Yes, yes, some

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Speaker 1: dietary adjustments might be necessary in order to ensure this

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Speaker 1: as a viable tactic for human beings. But I think

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Speaker 1: we all have great imaginations we can see it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not recommending this as a tactic for human beings.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that this would work for a human.

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Speaker 3: It might be a bad trade off. But it works

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Speaker 3: for the storks. But the question is how does it

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Speaker 3: work for the stork? How does it cool the body? Well,

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Speaker 3: it is actually the same physical principle at work as

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Speaker 3: many other thermoregulation techniques in nature. It is evaporative cooling.

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Speaker 3: We've talked about evaporative cooling and a number of contexts

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Speaker 3: on the show before. I think we did an invention

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Speaker 3: series on the history of air conditioning. The air conditioning

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Speaker 3: where we talked a lot about evaporative cooling, and it's

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Speaker 3: come up in a biological context as well. But the

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Speaker 3: short version is that the phase transition from liquid water

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Speaker 3: into water vapor requires a lot of heat energy to

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Speaker 3: take place. So water that is evaporating into the air

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Speaker 3: cools down very rapidly and in turn cools whatever it

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Speaker 3: is touching, such as your body if it's on the

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Speaker 3: surface of your skin. And if you ever want to

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Speaker 3: do a simple experiment in your home to see evaporative

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Speaker 3: cooling at work, you can try. This is kind of fun.

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Speaker 3: You can get two bottles of water at the same

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Speaker 3: temperature room temperature bottles of water, and you put them

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Speaker 3: both in front of a fan, and now one you

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Speaker 3: just sit there with nothing, you know, by itself, but

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Speaker 3: the other one wrap the bottle in a wet towel,

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Speaker 3: set them both in front of the fan, and then

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Speaker 3: come back in like half an hour. The regular bottle

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Speaker 3: will not have cooled off significantly, but the bottle that

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Speaker 3: you wrapped in a wet towel will be very cold

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Speaker 3: because as airflow from the fan causes the water in

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Speaker 3: the wet towel to quickly evaporate, it will suck heat

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Speaker 3: from the water in the bottle and make it cold.

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Speaker 3: I think this is an old trick that like people

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Speaker 3: traveling in desert climates, you know, without artificial cooling used

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Speaker 3: to use where they would, you know, they'd have like

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Speaker 3: a big jug of water, like a big skin of water,

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Speaker 3: and to keep it cool as they're traveling in the

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Speaker 3: hot desert sun, they would also get like a cloth

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Speaker 3: and wet it at the beginning of the day and

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Speaker 3: wrap it around the outside of this skin of water.

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Speaker 3: And as the water evaporates from the hot cloth on

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Speaker 3: the outside through the day under the hot sun, it

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Speaker 3: sucks heat from the water inside and makes the water

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Speaker 3: very cold. And evaporative cooling is why sweating cools the body.

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Speaker 3: You know, as sweat evaporates from your skin, it steals

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Speaker 3: heat energy from your body and it cools you off. Now,

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Speaker 3: of course, sweating has a downside, which is that it

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Speaker 3: causes you to lose water and electrolytes. So when you're

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Speaker 3: hot and sweaty, it's very important to keep hydrated to

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Speaker 3: compensate for the water loss. Exercising in the hot sun

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Speaker 3: one oh one, you got to drink lots of fluids.

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Speaker 3: The same is true for birds. Now, birds don't sweat,

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Speaker 3: they don't have sweat glands, they can't sweat, but they

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Speaker 3: do have their own evaporative cooling techniques, and as we

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Speaker 3: talked about, the panting is one of those techniques where

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Speaker 3: they can use evaporative cooling in their respiratory system with

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Speaker 3: the open bill rapid breathing, and eurohydrosis is one of

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Speaker 3: these techniques. The author's right that eurohydrosis is relatively rare

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Speaker 3: among birds because it requires ready access to a lot

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Speaker 3: of drinking water, but plenty of bird groups have been

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Speaker 3: observed to do it. They list New World vultures, storks, condors, gannets,

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Speaker 3: and boobies. And eurohodrosis has been known about for a

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Speaker 3: long time, but the authors say there still has been

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Speaker 3: relatively little investigation of what exactly are the environmental and

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Speaker 3: physiological factors that determine it, like what causes one bird

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Speaker 3: group to use eurohedrosis and another group do not use it.

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Speaker 3: So the authors came up with a systematic way of

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Speaker 3: looking into this. Now, this particular study relied on essentially

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Speaker 3: repositories of scientific media, like imagery of birds from various

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Speaker 3: field locations that was associated with metadata, so that you

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Speaker 3: could try to correlate like images of birds doing certain

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Speaker 3: things and the environmental data about them. So this was

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Speaker 3: not direct field test with variables that the authors could manipulate,

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Speaker 3: but they were just trying to establish correlations between like

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Speaker 3: environmental factors and factors about the bird's bodies, along with

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Speaker 3: observations of do these birds poop on their own legs

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Speaker 3: or not? So what environmental factors did they find correlating

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Speaker 3: with the use of eurohydrosis by storks? The authors found

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Speaker 3: that high temperatures, high solar radiation in higher air humidity,

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Speaker 3: and low wind speed were all factors that would increase

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Speaker 3: the baseline heat stress risk for an endothermic animal, and

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Speaker 3: storks in environments with all of these conditions were more

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Speaker 3: likely to engage in eurohydrosis. They also found that it

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Speaker 3: was more common among stork species that forage on dry

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Speaker 3: land as opposed to those that commonly inhabit water bodies

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Speaker 3: and forage by wading, which kind of makes sense to me, Like,

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Speaker 3: if you can get your legs wet without pooping on them,

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Speaker 3: all the better, right, But some storks are not in

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Speaker 3: a position to spend as much time hanging out in

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Speaker 3: the water.

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Speaker 1: Right right, Or you're dealing with water that's very shallow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've all seen storks in the wild, I think,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, sometimes they're in very shallow waters.

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Speaker 3: Now, even storks that sometimes wide in water do apparently

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Speaker 3: use eurohydrosis, just less often. For these species. It may

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Speaker 3: be more limited to times when circums stances create a

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Speaker 3: higher heat risk, such as during reproduction when they need

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Speaker 3: to be out of the water in the heat for

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Speaker 3: extended time. But anyway, the authors say that the hypothesis

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Speaker 3: that eurohydrosis correlates to open and warm habitats was confirmed.

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Speaker 3: Birds that sort of live out in the open in

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Speaker 3: hot places, they're the ones that are going to be

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Speaker 3: more likely to do this to help cool their bodies. Now,

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Speaker 3: there were some other hypotheses that had been put forward

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Speaker 3: by these authors and other authors that were not confirmed

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Speaker 3: in this research. It had been hypothesized that stork pigmentation

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Speaker 3: would be correlated to the use of eurohydrosis. The ideas

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Speaker 3: maybe that birds with darker pigmentation absorbed more heat from

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Speaker 3: the sun, but this was not supported by the survey.

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Speaker 3: They did not find that correlation. It had also been

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Speaker 3: hypothesized that eurohydrosis would directly correlate to the latitude where

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Speaker 3: birds live, with tropical species practicing it more. This was

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Speaker 3: also not strictly supported, though again there's some complications because

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Speaker 3: some of these birds, you know, they will travel, live

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Speaker 3: at different latitudes different parts of the year, and again warmer,

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Speaker 3: more open environments did predict it, it was just not

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Speaker 3: strictly latitude. Another thing that was not supported was a

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Speaker 3: hypothesis about body mass. This was something that the authors

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Speaker 3: of this paper predicted. They thought that higher body mass

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Speaker 3: would predict more eurohydrosis because the animal would have more

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Speaker 3: water reserves to take advantage of, Like if you're you know,

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Speaker 3: you're a bigger animal, you can drink more water, store

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Speaker 3: more water in the body. You can also you've got

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Speaker 3: more to you know, to waste in pooping on your

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Speaker 3: own legs to cool off. But this was actually not

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Speaker 3: the case. This might have to do with the fact

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Speaker 3: that these storks all had access to water bodies for

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Speaker 3: regular drinking, even if they didn't spend a lot of

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Speaker 3: their time waiting around in that water, so maybe internal

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Speaker 3: water stores were less of a concern. Looking beyond storks,

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Speaker 3: the authors note that even other bird gre groups that

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Speaker 3: practice heurohydrosis, like New World vultures, boobies, and gannets. They

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Speaker 3: all tend to breed or forage in hot, open land

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Speaker 3: areas under the sun, and they also tend to have

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Speaker 3: relatively large and highly vascularized legs, so there seem to

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Speaker 3: be some common environmental and physiological pressures at work. Now,

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Speaker 3: some other interesting observations from their conclusion I thought one

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Speaker 3: was that when comparing different ways of cooling the body

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Speaker 3: at the cost of energy and water reserves, the authors

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Speaker 3: conclude that eurohydrosis is actually cheaper than panting, which was

430
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 3: kind of surprising to me that that was counterintuitive, but

431
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 3: they said this is supported by the fact that birds

432
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: who have the adaptation tend to engage in leg pooping

433
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: at a lower temperature threshold than the temperature threshold for panting.

434
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 3: So I think kind of like how if you're a human,

435
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 3: humans will typically resort to like changing into short sleeves

436
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: before they will resort to like jumping into ice water bath.

437
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 3: You know, one is like a more severe costly activity

438
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: than the other, And it seems like for these birds,

439
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: panting is the more severe, more costly, and risky activity.

440
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: The authors also note that other animals, apart from birds,

441
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 3: use alternative evaporative cooling methods, not just not just sweating

442
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 3: like we do. They say some mammals produce excess saliva

443
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: when hot and then use evaporative cooling through the mouth

444
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 3: or even cool the body by like drooling or licking

445
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 3: on themselves on the outside and then allowing that saliva

446
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 3: to evaporate. Rob I know, you've got an alternative evaporative

447
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 3: cooling method to talk about in a minute. But they

448
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: end up saying that there could be some tradeoffs involved here.

449
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 3: There's possibly that this is not a strong not something

450
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 3: they strongly established, but a possibility is that there could

451
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: be a tradeoff between mate signaling based on the pigmentation

452
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 3: of bird legs and the cooling benefits of eurohydrosis. But

453
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: this is yet to be fully explored. But the idea

454
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 3: here would be if this were the case, that it

455
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: helps you advertise mating fitness better, if like the correct

456
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 3: pigmentation on your legs is showing, and that by pooping

457
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 3: all over your legs, this like changes the way you

458
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 3: look and sort of downgrades your mating appeal. So there

459
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: could be some push and pull there, but that wasn't

460
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: very well established. But more briefly, I did want to

461
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 3: mention a second paper that involved three of the same

462
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: authors as the previous paper, because it had some interesting

463
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: follow up on this and involved a more direct method.

464
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 3: And so the second paper was by again three of

465
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: the same authors, Kubeovergel, Viegas and Gutierrez, and this one

466
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: was called Keeping Cool with Poop. Eurohydrosis lowers leg surface

467
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: temperature by up to six degrees celsius in breeding white storks,

468
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: published in Ecosphere in twenty twenty three. And this study

469
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 3: was a direct attempt to measure that the magnitude and

470
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: dear duration of the evaporative cooling that you get from

471
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 3: eurohydrosis in free ranging birds. The study used observations of

472
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: eurohydrosis in white storks or Seconias econia, paired with thermal

473
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: imaging and microclimate measurements to see like exactly how much

474
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: benefit the leg pooping was providing. Now, this next part

475
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: in the abstract did make me laugh. They write, quote,

476
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 3: we show that eurohydrosis can reduce leg surface temperature by

477
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 3: up to six point seven degrees celsius, which is actually

478
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: four point four plus or minus one point zero four

479
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: degrees celsius. Yet its cooling effect was of short duration,

480
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: lasting no more than two point five minutes and decreased

481
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: with time since defecation. Which actually that makes sense, right,

482
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: because like, if you're trying to work through evaporative cooling,

483
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: as the bird poops on its leg, it will be

484
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 3: very it will have a great cooling effect while the

485
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 3: poop is still very wet, but then as it evaporates,

486
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: it will dry up, and then it will provide less

487
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: of a cooling benefit and may even have some negative

488
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: effect in fact, if it like cakes on.

489
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: You know, let's keep all of this in mind as

490
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: we perceive, right.

491
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 3: So, but then there's the second second thing here. The

492
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: selection continues quote. Thus, for eurohydrosis to significantly contribute to

493
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: heat dissipation, storks must perform it repeatedly when overheated. So

494
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: the leg pooping must go on and on, and it

495
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: turns out it does. The authors found that the white

496
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: storks here can poop on themselves eleven times per hour.

497
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: And I did a little math there. So with like

498
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: two point five minutes of cooling with each blast, that's

499
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 3: twenty seven point five minutes of cooling per hour. If

500
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: they do it eleven times, almost half of the time

501
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: of the hour is in cooling. Mode. So the authors

502
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: estimate that eurohydrosis can cover quote four percent of the

503
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 3: daily field metabolic rate for an adult stork. Wow.

504
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 1: So it's like any like cooling system in a house

505
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: that might it might not be on all the time.

506
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: That would probably be just biologically impossible, but it's going

507
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: to keep coming on periodically to try and keep the

508
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: temperature down.

509
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great comparison. It'll trigger repeatedly over time

510
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: to kick off little short periods of cooling, and then

511
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: the body temperature will come back up again, and then

512
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: the bird will release the excreta again and it will

513
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: set off another short period of cooling, and it'll go

514
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: back and forth. Now, I just did want to I

515
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 3: mentioned this on the earlier study, but I did want

516
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: to emphasize again. Unless you think, oh, you know, this

517
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: is just silly, this is actually interesting and relevant knowledge,

518
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: and will things like this will be of increasing importance

519
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: to wildlife and conservation biologists over time. The author's right quote.

520
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 3: Gaining knowledge about behavioral thermoregulation in the heat is therefore

521
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: crucial to better predict the future persistence and vulnerability of

522
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: species under different climate warming scenarios. A lot of these

523
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: species are going to be living in places where the

524
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: local climate is increasing in heat over time. That's increasing

525
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: the heat stress on animals that live in the wild,

526
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: and some animals will be better or worse able to

527
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: deal with it than others. There was another question that

528
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 3: came out because I saw some stuff online in discussions

529
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: about eurohidrosis that was about possible other functions. It seems

530
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 3: pretty clear that certainly in storks, it's playing a role

531
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 3: in cooling the body. But is eurohidrosis just to cool

532
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: the body or in some species, could it be playing

533
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 3: another role as well? Like I saw some ideas that

534
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: it could possibly have an antibacterial function.

535
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that brings us back to the gross and

536
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: wonderful world of vultures. These splendid kings and queens who

537
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: keep our s it's clear of carcasses and in general

538
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: are just great decomposers there. There were a few in

539
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: our neighborhood not to just a week or so ago.

540
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: They were disrupting traffic. But you know, as we went

541
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: by them, we saluted them because they were they were

542
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: doing the lord's work out there.

543
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: They're worthy of our respect. Yes.

544
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: So, yeah, there's this idea that various New World vultures

545
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: are engaging in this kind of you know, possible euro hydrosis,

546
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: but maybe not for temperature control purposes. That you know,

547
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: they've been observed to do it when it's cold, they've

548
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: been observed to do it when it's warm, So what

549
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: could the purpose be. And there is this idea that

550
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: it is essentially kind of like when we reach for

551
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: a container of a hand sanitizer, except for the vulture whose,

552
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: of course, you know, it's it's getting its talons into

553
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: various you know, grotesque feasts there on the side of

554
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: the road or in the wilderness and so forth. Occasionally

555
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: it makes sense to to sam ties those legs with

556
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: an eye, perhaps with a nice you know, coloacal wash.

557
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 1: And so that is the theory that there is an

558
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: antiseptic nature of vulture defecation and that it, you know,

559
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: especially would be important for various scrapes and cuts on

560
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: those appendages. And so I was reading about this in

561
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: a twenty twenty two book, Vultures of the World, in

562
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: which the author Keith l builds and points out that

563
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: at the time, at any rate, the antiseptic nature of

564
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: vulture defication had not been like tested to the fullest.

565
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: So it's still kind of an open question, but this

566
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: does seem to be a strong argument, again based in

567
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: large part of the fact that they do seem to

568
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: do it both in summer and winter, suggesting that disinfection

569
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: might be at least an important part of the equation

570
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: for like turkey vultures. Okay, now, an interesting fact about this.

571
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: I was not familiar with this, but the author here

572
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: points out that in US, in US and Canada at

573
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: any rate, vulture researchers are prohibited from using leg bands

574
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: on turkey vultures because there's a risk of uric acid

575
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 1: building up and cementing around the leg band, because again

576
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: they're pooping and peeing down those legs. If you have

577
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: a band there for tracking purposes, it could you know,

578
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: it gets caught there, it drives there, it's cements there,

579
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: and this could effectively hobble the bird over time. Eventually

580
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: it's like too big of a weight for them to

581
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: fly off with apparently, or at least you know, it

582
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: would get in the way of their they're flying, in

583
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: their ability to carry out their daily activities. So fortunately,

584
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: there are other methods for tracking them, things like wing

585
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: tags and the like. But putting a leg tag on

586
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: them as a no no. Now, before we get away

587
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: from birds, I do want to point out that in looking,

588
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: I'm always interested to see if there's any kind of

589
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: mythological or folklooric tie in to a particular topic, And

590
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: I really wasn't expecting much here, but I did find

591
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: mention of this in connection to Amazonian mythology via a

592
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: book titled an Amazonian myth and its History by Peter

593
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: Goal that came out in two thousand and one. So

594
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: the story involved here is referred to as the Sun,

595
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: and it entails a character who is at one point eviscerated,

596
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: but in a nice way, like in a like a

597
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: polite mythic way, like he's asleep, and the creatures that

598
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: are working for him like remove his intestines. But at

599
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: any rate, the story involves a character who's eviscerated becomes gutless,

600
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: and by becoming gutless, can now eat and drink all

601
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: he wants, but can also never be satisfied. And this

602
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: is a story that Gal says is apparently connected to

603
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: observations of the wood stork who appeared gutless because they

604
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: are constantly excreting waste. You mentioned like how often per

605
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: hour they are excreting in order to cool those legs down,

606
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: and it can lead to this observation it's like, well,

607
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: this animal poops all the time, and we don't do that,

608
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: like we you know, we know exactly, we know more

609
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: or less what's happening when we consume food and it

610
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: becomes nourishment and so forth. Perhaps the stork is not

611
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: giving it time at all, is just going straight through.

612
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: And therefore, you know, there's just these kind of you know,

613
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 1: ravenous but unsatisfied creatures.

614
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: Interesting. Now, I didn't come across a poop count on

615
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 3: the wood stork, but in that one study, yet there

616
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 3: was the white stork, and it was up to eleven

617
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: times per hour. Wow, that's a lot.

618
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: So the myth, as recounted, apparently involves a man who

619
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: has enslaved the wood storks to do his bidding, but

620
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 1: then while he's asleep in the canoe, they remove his intestines,

621
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: and they intestines and they like hang them over the

622
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: side of the canoe, and when he wakes up, he's like, hey,

623
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: what's this stuff here? They have carently don't say anything,

624
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: so he throws it out and then the storks tell

625
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: him later they're like, oh, yeah, by the way, those

626
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: we are intestines. So as I understand that what we

627
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: have here is we have an observation of nature, an

628
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: incorrect hypothesis or a very loose hypothesis that may be

629
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: concerned more with the mythic purposes of the tail as

630
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: opposed to anything else. And then this bleeds into an

631
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: anatomical mythology that presents something almost like a hungry ghost,

632
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: you know, this idea of a being that cannot be

633
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: satisfied because his digestive capabilities are just not intact, and

634
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: that perhaps that's what we see when we see these

635
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 1: storks as well.

636
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: Interesting. I mean, I guess that does sort of tie

637
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 3: into the observation that the storks most likely to engage

638
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 3: in this are the ones that are going to be

639
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 3: out in the sun on dry land in the heat,

640
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 3: but also birds that have ready access to drinking water,

641
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: and that this would probably not be a good adaptation

642
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 3: for a bird species that had to, you know, that

643
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: had to conserve water resources maximally and did not have

644
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: ready access to water bodies. Yeah.

645
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't have enough time to really dive into

646
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,919
Speaker 1: this text, but it's out there. If anyone else wants

647
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: to look into it again. The author is Peter gow

648
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: who lived nineteen fifty eight through twenty twenty one. He

649
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: was a social anthropologist who worked a lot in the Amazon.

650
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: Interesting story, Yeah, yeah, I also was. I did not

651
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 3: think there would be a eurohydrosis related myth.

652
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: Oh, but here we are. Let's see other animals. Though,

653
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, we also see this in some aquatic mammals.

654
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: The main example that I was reading about in a

655
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: paper that you sent to me, Joe, is the southern

656
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,959
Speaker 1: fur seal or arctocephalus. This is this means bare head

657
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: because we're talking about Antarctic fur seals here. These are

658
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: furry looking critters adapted to thrive in very cold waters. However,

659
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: as Roger L. Gentry discusses in the nineteen seventy three

660
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: paper thermo Regulatory Behavior of Eared Seals, this published in

661
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: the journal Behavior, they have other means of thermoregulation that

662
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: become necessary when these well insulated creatures are out of

663
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: the water and caring about on the shore, on the

664
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: rocks in the sun.

665
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 3: Ah Okay, so this might be a different situation than

666
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 3: the storks living in like a really hot climate under

667
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: the direct sun. I mean, I guess you could still

668
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 3: have the sun beating down on you. But the issue

669
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 3: here would be that the seals are very well adapted

670
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 3: to the cold, and so in cases where they're under

671
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: the sun and it's not very cold, their heat conserving

672
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 3: adaptations are working against them.

673
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: Right And the situation where this becomes essential, especially for

674
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: the males, it has to do with their breeding period,

675
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: because they live a lot of their lives in the water,

676
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: but they they come on to land, you know, during

677
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: the breeding period, and it's very important for a male

678
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: to hold down his territory. So there's a lot of

679
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: fighting and squabbling for territory and for females, and it's

680
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: a it can be a real endurance game for the

681
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: males of you know, various seal species species because they're

682
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: having to constantly fight and at the same time they

683
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: have to maintain acceptable body temperatures, they have to thermoregulate,

684
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: and they're not in the water at this point. The

685
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: water is the author points out, the ideal place for

686
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: this creature to cool down. But you're fighting a territory war,

687
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: in a mating war up here on the rocks. So

688
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: getting back in the water is something you can do,

689
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: but that is going to be like your last resort

690
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: because you're giving up territory at that point, so you

691
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: have to do other things. So Jenry discusses how, especially

692
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: during the high temperatures in these environments, you'll see a

693
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: few different behaviors. So on one hand, they will seek

694
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: out shade or shade cooled rocks, which you know, kind

695
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: of the same thing. But it's essential to note that

696
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: rocks of course heat up in the sun, so being

697
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: in the shade is one level of protection, but also

698
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: being on rocks that are either currently or have just

699
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: previously been cooled by the shade is also worth thinking about.

700
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: And so according to Gentry, during higher temperatures, these seals

701
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: have been observed to stand on all fours and then

702
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: annoy their flippers and bellies with urine, with the back

703
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: of flippers being the key, because then they'll lay on

704
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: one side and extend their now wet rear flipper into

705
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: the air, and this will be the way they carry

706
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: carry out some evaporative cooling. He also notes that the

707
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: males seemingly drink more water in the surf during this

708
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: time period in order to provide more urine for thermoregulation

709
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: when they're out on the shore. So, coming back to

710
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: what we were talking about with the with the storks,

711
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: if you're going to engage in something like this, you've

712
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: got to keep you got to keep the fluids flowing.

713
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: That is so interesting imagining like the sort of the

714
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 3: chain of preparations there I'm thinking about, So the male

715
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 3: seals like tanking up with water to get ready for

716
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: one of these one of these like breeding season things

717
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 3: where he knows he's going to be out under the sun.

718
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: Now, this is also interesting to think about for me

719
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: because I did get to see Galapago's fur seals carrying

720
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: out carrying out their their various activities on the beach

721
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: when I was down at the Galapagos Islands, and I

722
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: didn't even know to look out for any kind of

723
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: urination going on.

724
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 3: I did.

725
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I saw any like actual throwdowns between

726
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: male seals, but I did get to see like some

727
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: of what they're up to. So yeah, I wish i'd

728
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: known to look out for this.

729
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: What does it look what does it look like some

730
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: we're just trying to like stake out good territory.

731
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll see like a big male and a bunch

732
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: of females and then you know, basically trying to hold

733
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: down the territory of this part of the beach with

734
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: these females. And then occasionally here's some other male seal

735
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: coming that is going to contest this situation, and then

736
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: you know, there are various little squabbles about where the

737
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: females are getting to lay about as well. And then

738
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes and then this is also inevitably happening

739
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: or a lot of the time, it's happening on beaches

740
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: that where people are also hanging around, so they're also

741
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: human tourists, so there's a lot of and of course

742
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: when the seals decide they want to go somewhere, it's

743
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: like it's time for the humans to move.

744
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: Don't mess with seals, folks.

745
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, but sometimes they could be a little like at

746
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 1: one point, I was just sitting there with my family

747
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: and there was like a smaller, very loud female seal

748
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: and she just decided she needed to set where I was,

749
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: So of course I moved and then she sat there

750
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: for a little bit and kind of you know, catterwaulled

751
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: a bit, and then she moved on elsewhere. But it

752
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: was like I don't know. It kind of felt like

753
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: she was being a little petty, but this beach belongs

754
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: to you. I'm just visiting, very magnanimous. Yes, hey, just

755
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: a quick post publication note. I want to insert here

756
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: Everything that I was saying about the fur seals is

757
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: correct according to my research. But in the heat of

758
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: the moment, I mentioned the Galapagos, and I mistook my

759
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: memory of Galapagos Sea lions for Galapago's fur seals. So

760
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: sorry about that. My apologies, but I did want to

761
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: throw in this post publication correction here for anyone who

762
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: listens to the episode later. Yeah, I didn't have anything

763
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: about the Galapagos in my notes. It's just as I

764
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: was going through this part of the episode, it stirred

765
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: a memory, and as is sometimes the case with memories

766
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 1: that are recalled from the depths, sometimes it comes up

767
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: with a little bit of incorrect information applied there. So,

768
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get back into the episode. Now,

769
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: speaking of the Galapagos, this does bring me to the

770
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: next question that I had, because when I was in

771
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: the Glapagos, I did just a little bit of snorkeling

772
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: in very cold waters, and I was wearing a dive

773
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: suit because it gets cold. And if you've ever gone

774
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: diving or done scuba diving or snorkeling and you've worn

775
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: a wet suit and the water's been cold, you might

776
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: have done what a lot of people have done what

777
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: I did as well, and that is urinate in the

778
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: suit while you're in the water to warm things up

779
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: a bit. This instantly came to my mind when we

780
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: started getting into this, because, yeah, like this seems like

781
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: an example where humans can get in on the euro

782
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: hydrosis action, right, sort of in the opposite direction, in

783
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: the opposite direction, right, you know, can we just pee

784
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: in our dive suits in order to warm things up?

785
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: And you know, I was able to find a full

786
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: article about this on dive si dot com. That's Scuba

787
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: School's International.

788
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 3: That's beautiful. Well what's the word? All right?

789
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, I didn't know what the what the full

790
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: scoop on this was. And I'm not like a big

791
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm not a scuba diver and i am not a

792
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: wetsuit person, so I didn't even know what the accepted

793
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: wisdom was here. But the authors of this article point

794
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: out that, yeah, this is kind of like common lore

795
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: among divers and historically to scuba divers that that if

796
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: you get in a little cold, will pee in your

797
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: suit and then'll warm things up a bit. And they

798
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: point out that due to the mammalian dive response you

799
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: might need, you might have a heightened need to urinate

800
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: in this environment because a submerged mammal is going to

801
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: experience a slowed heart rate during free diving, especially, it's

802
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: going to narrow blood vessels and the extremities, and blood's

803
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: going to shift to the core parts of the body,

804
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: all in order to conserve oxygen and maintain blood flow

805
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: while holding one's breath. But more blood ends up going

806
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: to the core and then via the kidneys. This increase

807
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: the urge to urinate. So you might find yourself in

808
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: a situation where you're like, Wow, I just got into

809
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: the water off the boat, it's cold, I need a

810
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: pee anyway, Why don't we warm things up a bit?

811
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: And so yeah, they point out that this is a

812
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: common bit of diver's lore, and the article states quote

813
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: the wet suit itself works by trapping a thin layer

814
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 1: of water between the neoprene that's a synthetic rubber and

815
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: the skin, which the body warms. This layer serves as insulation,

816
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,479
Speaker 1: keeping the diver warm in cold water. When a diver

817
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: urinates in their wet suit, the initial warm sensation comes

818
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: from the body warmed urine. However, this effect is fleeting.

819
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 3: Nothing gold can stay.

820
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 1: I mean in this we do kind of come back

821
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: to the situation with the storks, right, I mean that too,

822
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: is fleeting. Is a cooling burst that will have to

823
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: be reapplied. I think the problem with divers is that

824
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 1: you probably don't have that many goes at it here, right,

825
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: you probably? Oh? I mean, how many times can we

826
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: you urinate in your suit on a given dive or snorkel.

827
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I have a feeling knowing

828
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: my body that truly it's just one, maybe two, but

829
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,479
Speaker 1: not enough to not not eleven times per hour.

830
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if I'm understanding the dynamics here correctly, it

831
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 3: even then, like it's still just a sensation of warming.

832
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 3: Your body is not actually getting warmer from this, Like

833
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: you're you're losing warmth by peeing, But it's it feels

834
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 3: warm on the outside.

835
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 1: Right, You're gonna get that. And I can testify to this. Yeah,

836
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 1: you get you get a warming sensation, but it is fleeting,

837
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: they point out, because the urine quickly cools and things

838
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: that will then actually feel colder when this cooling occurs.

839
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's kind of like when you first

840
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: get into the cold water to swim about. It's like

841
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: it can be shocking, takes your breath away, but then

842
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: you get used to it and you carry on. When

843
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 1: you when you pee your suit in order to warm up,

844
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: you kind of like recreate something like that scenario again.

845
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: We're like, oh, now now it's cold again. Because and

846
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: part of this is the wet suit is not waterproof,

847
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: it's permeable, so outside cold water will directly cool the

848
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: layer of spreading warm urine in the suit. Now, all

849
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: that being said, the article stresses that ping in your

850
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: wet suit is a common practice, and it is it's

851
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: not harmful. You know, you may have some hygienic or

852
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: some comfort concerns about it, but basically all they really

853
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: advise on this is, look, if you do it, fine,

854
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: but just you want to make sure you wash out

855
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: your suit afterwards. I mean, you're going to be washing

856
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: your suit out, but you know, if if you don't

857
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: thoroughly wash it out, you could get some some some

858
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: some urine odors, you know, in the material and so forth.

859
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: But and then again they stress that, yeah, you're gonna

860
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: get a warm burst, but it's not going to be lasting.

861
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: It's not. It's just just going to be a burst.

862
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 3: You know, correct me if I'm wrong. But I bet

863
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't own their own dive suits

864
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 3: to your kind of is it a rental situation?

865
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean now that you mentioned it, like

866
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: the dive suit I urinated in was definitely not mine.

867
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 1: No shape was provided for me. And uh yeah, I

868
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: trust that they sprayed it out afterwards, I guess, so

869
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: it didn't seem gross when I put it on. So

870
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 1: uh And I imagine a lot of people have peede

871
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: in that suit.

872
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 3: Sound like everybody does it. I'm sure they wash them

873
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 3: real good.

874
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: I would love to hear from folks out there who've

875
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: done like a lot of like scuba and snorkeling in

876
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: wet suits. And you can add your own, you know,

877
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: two cents to this whole discussion.

878
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 3: Well, Rob, this topic went places I did not expect,

879
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 3: but I have I have found great delight in the

880
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 3: twists and turns.

881
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, As is often the case, once you

882
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: really get into a topic. You don't know where it's

883
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: going to take you.

884
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: Hey, but if you're somebody who happens to see storks, vultures, condors, ganets,

885
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 3: boobies in the wild, uh, and you catch them with

886
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 3: with like seeing this taking place, let us know. Do

887
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: you have any picture what's going on?

888
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. We want natural world observations as well

889
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: as reports on adventures and paying yourself.

890
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 3: Please no pictures of human just the.

891
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: Birds, just the birds please, or the scenes. Yeah all right,

892
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 1: Well we're going to go and close out this episode,

893
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 1: but we'll remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind

894
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

895
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays and on Fridays. We set aside

896
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film

897
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: on weird House Cinema, so you can always look out

898
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: for those episodes. You can find us on Instagram. We

899
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: are STBYM podcast.

900
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 3: There huge things as always to our excellent audio producer

901
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch

902
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

903
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

904
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at Stuff

905
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 3: to Blow Your Mind dot com.

906
00:51:50,920 --> 00:52:00,479
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeart Radio.

907
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,760
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908
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.