1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,440
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.

2
00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,440
Speaker 1: I am your host, Ashlyn Harris, and I'm so excited

3
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,719
Speaker 1: for this week's episode. I just got back from LA

4
00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: and you know, I've got my kids and we had

5
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,120
Speaker 1: a really really fun weekend and it's been cold here

6
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,080
Speaker 1: in New York, so it's it's some things never change.

7
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, I had a great weekend spending family time

8
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: and hanging out with my kiddos, and we went to

9
00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 1: an indoor play place that we we got to rip

10
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,080
Speaker 1: around with motorized like little scooters, and you know, as

11
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,320
Speaker 1: soon as I put them to bed, I am I

12
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: am knee deep in my true crime saga that I

13
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,720
Speaker 1: love to watch. So this is going to be a

14
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: fun episode. It's going to be so interesting. Amanda Knox

15
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: is here to talk to us about her life, her

16
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 1: life before and after the events that led to a

17
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,040
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. And I think what I'm pulling out and

18
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: what I'm reflecting on most in this conversation is I

19
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,679
Speaker 1: love true crime. I consume true crime all the time.

20
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,800
Speaker 1: My partner, I curl up on long drives and long trips.

21
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,760
Speaker 1: I think Amanda humanized it for me. I learned a

22
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,839
Speaker 1: lot about what I'm watching and what people are actually

23
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 1: living are two very different spaces that we can hold

24
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,960
Speaker 1: at the same time. And being able to hear it

25
00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: firsthand from her of what it caused her and what

26
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: she's had to carry through her life because of this

27
00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,920
Speaker 1: true crime saga and what she had to experience, it

28
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 1: just really humanized who she is and what these stories

29
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 1: are about. These are real people, and we victimize them,

30
00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 1: we villainize them. A lot of people are convicted who

31
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,760
Speaker 1: are wrongly convicted. That media totally gets it wrong for

32
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,360
Speaker 1: a story, and a lot of times it's sexualized, and

33
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 1: you'll hear that firsthand from Amanda. And I'm really now

34
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,399
Speaker 1: taking a step back to realize, like what I'm consuming

35
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 1: is bias. Is maybe not all the facts, maybe it's

36
00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: a version of the facts. And I think we need

37
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: to reflect and sit down and take a pause and

38
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,960
Speaker 1: realize what we're doing and how we're jeopardizing someone's narrative

39
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:47,959
Speaker 1: in someone's story. So before, yeah, before we come to

40
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 1: a conclusion or a judgment, I'm excited for you all

41
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: to hear her story, to hear the before and after

42
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,760
Speaker 1: what she lived during it. It was a really i

43
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,360
Speaker 1: opening experience, and I'm really excited for you guys to

44
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,240
Speaker 1: tune into this episode. So here's Amanda Knox and this

45
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:18,280
Speaker 1: is wide open. Amanda Knox became a name, a headline,

46
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,320
Speaker 1: a narrative that the world consumed. But behind all of this,

47
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,960
Speaker 1: she's a human, a woman who had her life interrupted

48
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 1: and waves most of us will never be able to understand.

49
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 1: This conversation isn't about what happened to her. It's about

50
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 1: what it did, who she was before it, and who

51
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 1: she had to become after it to survive, and what

52
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 1: it looks like to rebuild a life when so much

53
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 1: of your story was never yours to control. Amanda, thank

54
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,160
Speaker 1: you for being here, thank you for the willingness to

55
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,400
Speaker 1: be wide open on a topic that I imagine is

56
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 1: very hard. And let's get into it. Everyone. This is

57
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,760
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. Amanda, Welcome to the show.

58
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:07,920
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, thanks for having me.

59
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,040
Speaker 1: How are you today.

60
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 2: I'm doing well.

61
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 3: I'm a little sick, like I'm the one who always

62
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 3: gets sick last in my household, so everyone else has

63
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,680
Speaker 3: been sick for like weeks now, and I was like, Okay,

64
00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 3: it's coming coming, It's knocking.

65
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,039
Speaker 1: On the door. Listen, We're both moms. Like, I just

66
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 1: feel like as a new mom, I was sick all

67
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,080
Speaker 1: the time. It took so much, like it took probably

68
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 1: three years for my immune system to be like, Okay,

69
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,240
Speaker 1: let's go like and I and now it's still rampages

70
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: through the entire house. So I feel you on that

71
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,080
Speaker 1: so funny. Well, I hope you're feeling better.

72
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I took a bunch of Gwaffennison and all

73
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 3: of that, so hopefully I.

74
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,279
Speaker 1: Love it. But before we dive into everything, I always

75
00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 1: like to ask guests to kind of tell me about

76
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 1: who they were when they were younger, before you know,

77
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,160
Speaker 1: all the tabloids in the media and you know the

78
00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:14,279
Speaker 1: stories clearly the aftermath. I'm curious who Amanda was because

79
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 1: now you're just you're so public and you're so uh

80
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 1: you carry yourself in a way to advocate for you know,

81
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,720
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted people, and you humanize it in such a

82
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,479
Speaker 1: beautiful way. But I you know, before you had to

83
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,159
Speaker 1: be forced into this who who was this this you

84
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 1: know Amanda little girl?

85
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I grew up in Seattle and I was

86
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 3: I'm the oldest of all of like my siblings and

87
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 3: also my cousins so I was always the sort of

88
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 3: the babysitter of all the kids. I was driving everybody

89
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,680
Speaker 3: to you know, their baseball or soccer practice. I played

90
00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,599
Speaker 3: a lot of sports as well growing up. I you know,

91
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,360
Speaker 3: my dad played softball, my mom played soccer, and so

92
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,919
Speaker 3: I was playing both and also doing gymnastics, so I

93
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,599
Speaker 3: was very athletic as a kid. I also was really

94
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 3: into music and musical theater, so I was doing you know,

95
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 3: musicals in middle school and high school. All around just

96
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:24,840
Speaker 3: a really positive childhood, like basically as good as you

97
00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,960
Speaker 3: could get. Like, I was very safe, I was very supported.

98
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 3: My family is very close knit, so, like, you know,

99
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,600
Speaker 3: my my parents divorced when I was young, but because

100
00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 3: they wanted to be supportive of me and my sister,

101
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,839
Speaker 3: they got houses that were just like a two minute

102
00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,880
Speaker 3: walk from each other, so we were just like back

103
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 3: and forth. And then of course my my grandmother's house

104
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 3: was in walking distance, my aunt and my uncle's house

105
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 3: within walking distance. So I really got a sort of

106
00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 3: very safe and warm and supportive upbringing. And and I

107
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,360
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't have any struggles with growing up.

108
00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 3: I didn't, I like, I did well in school, I

109
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 3: had friends, I did well in sports.

110
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,600
Speaker 2: Like basically, life was.

111
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,440
Speaker 3: Super easy and super joyful for me growing up, and

112
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,800
Speaker 3: that led me to be a very like curious person.

113
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,239
Speaker 3: I was very curious about the world and about other people.

114
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,840
Speaker 2: But it also made me.

115
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 3: A little bit naive to the darker sides of the

116
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,680
Speaker 3: world and of people because I truly did not have

117
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 3: anything bad ever happened to me. So I was a

118
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 3: very trusting person and so when everything bad happened in Italy,

119
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 3: I was completely blindsided.

120
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine. And when you think about that

121
00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,720
Speaker 1: version of yourself, Now, what do you miss the most?

122
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 1: Because there is something that the experience you had to

123
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: go through. It changes someone, it hardens someone, and I imagine,

124
00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 1: no matter what, you carry that with you. So I

125
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: just am curious, Like when you talk about that version,

126
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: that innocent little girl who had everything at her fingertips,

127
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,680
Speaker 1: and just you know, we're young, we're naive, the possibilities,

128
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,920
Speaker 1: the dreaming, We're like, we want to take on the

129
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,559
Speaker 1: world in life. What do you miss, like most about

130
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 1: that little girl? Yeah?

131
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,080
Speaker 3: You know, when I went back to Italy after all

132
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 3: of this happened, part of what I realized I was

133
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 3: doing there was grieving that younger version of myself that

134
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 3: didn't survive the experience. I really did feel like my

135
00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,760
Speaker 3: life has been has been three lives so far, and

136
00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,160
Speaker 3: you know, my life up until Italy is one life,

137
00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 3: and then my life in Italy is as a completely

138
00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:14,400
Speaker 3: other life, and then the life afterwards. Like a significant

139
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,920
Speaker 3: part of me died in Italy, and it was the

140
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,160
Speaker 3: part of me again, that person who nothing bad had

141
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,760
Speaker 3: ever happened to. But also it was that person who,

142
00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 3: like this is going to sound so annoying, and I

143
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 3: feel like people are maybe like it's maybe it was

144
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:34,959
Speaker 3: a good thing that something bad happened to you because

145
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 3: of how Disney princess you were. But like I would

146
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:43,839
Speaker 3: wake up just being super excited to live my life

147
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,000
Speaker 3: with every you know, every feeling that like the people

148
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 3: that I would interact with would would understand me and

149
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 3: treat me well, and like that's that was just my

150
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 3: experience of reality. And so when I came out of

151
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 3: this experience, I felt deeply disconnected to other people. I

152
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 3: felt deeply fearful of other people and and I and

153
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,679
Speaker 3: that was really really hard. I I have been struggling

154
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,560
Speaker 3: to get back to that sense of feeling like I

155
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,000
Speaker 3: can connect with other people and I can trust trust

156
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,080
Speaker 3: them again. And it's hard because I now know something

157
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:33,440
Speaker 3: about humanity that is less than flattering, and you know,

158
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,680
Speaker 3: it's not it's not always safe, and people are not

159
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,320
Speaker 3: always you know, doing things with your best interests at heart,

160
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,560
Speaker 3: and sometimes people are just cruel, just cruel.

161
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,040
Speaker 1: And that part, that part that you I think, you know,

162
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,720
Speaker 1: we all watched it, you know, this was the this

163
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:58,680
Speaker 1: this was such a big moment. You know, for our generation,

164
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 1: it was just headlines and headlines and headlines. But you

165
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: are living it, and I think this is where people

166
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,080
Speaker 1: get super jaded. Like you are a human, you are

167
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,439
Speaker 1: an absolutely Like how does it feel to have your

168
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:18,840
Speaker 1: identity shaped by a narrative you couldn't control? Like yeah,

169
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,480
Speaker 1: that's so at twenty, Like yeah, I.

170
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,400
Speaker 3: Mean it's it's tough because at twenty you are in

171
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 3: a developmental stage of your life, so already you're like, oh,

172
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,079
Speaker 3: I'm discovering who I am and then all of a

173
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,760
Speaker 3: sudden that all of that discovery is taken from you and.

174
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 2: Just like warped into something disgusting and awful like it was.

175
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 3: It was an existential crisis for me, Like I lived

176
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,439
Speaker 3: the first two years of my imprisonment in a kind

177
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,320
Speaker 3: of state of denial, like I was really certain that

178
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 3: I was accidentally living somebody else's life by mistake, and

179
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 3: like the adults in the room would figure it out

180
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 3: and let me go back to living my life and

181
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,040
Speaker 3: not the life of some murderer that I wasn't so.

182
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,160
Speaker 3: But it wasn't until I was convicted that it really

183
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 3: it became real for me that like who I was,

184
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,760
Speaker 3: who I am didn't matter, that the truth didn't matter,

185
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 3: that like my entire reality was being rewritten and I

186
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 3: had no say in it, and that was utterly debilitating,

187
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 3: but it also sort of focused in for me what

188
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 3: I did actually have control over. So, you know, when

189
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,920
Speaker 3: I was twenty, I had visions of what my life

190
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,680
Speaker 3: would be like, right, and it was, you know, not

191
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 3: that crazy. I wanted to be a traveler. I wanted

192
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,160
Speaker 3: to translate poetry. I was a nerd, like I wanted

193
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,199
Speaker 3: to translate poetry like how like low bar like I

194
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,199
Speaker 3: don't know how I thought that could be a career.

195
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,920
Speaker 3: But again, like I just wanted to translate poetry. That

196
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,439
Speaker 3: sounded like an amazing job for me, and I again

197
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 3: shows how naive I am. I don't think anyone can

198
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,559
Speaker 3: make a living shows your innocence.

199
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,480
Speaker 1: It shows your innocence as a young kid, just like

200
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 1: you didn't have to worry about what was real and

201
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 1: what wasn't. You were just living in the moment. Going

202
00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,400
Speaker 1: abroad like that is the point to explore who you

203
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: are during this process. You're not supposed to have it

204
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 1: figured out.

205
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, hell, then forty and I don't want to figure

206
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,959
Speaker 4: it out, but yeah, and then you know, then they

207
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,559
Speaker 4: sentenced me to twenty six years for a crime that

208
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 4: I had nothing to do with, and there's this narrative

209
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 4: out there about me that is.

210
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:54,440
Speaker 3: Completely made up, like it's it's I wasn't even in

211
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 3: Italy for that long, so anybody who was there was

212
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,160
Speaker 3: just getting to know me, and so there weren't people

213
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 3: in Italy who could really speak to my personality and

214
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 3: my character like they had just met me, really, and

215
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 3: so there was a lot of just like making things

216
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,840
Speaker 3: up and my Like, the thing that really bothers me

217
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 3: is I mean, there's a million things that bothered me,

218
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 3: but one of the things that I found was so

219
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,560
Speaker 3: devastating was how the prosecution and then of course the media,

220
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 3: which just amplified the prosecution's narrative. They they pitted me

221
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 3: against my roommate when we had never had any kind

222
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,040
Speaker 3: of conflict, Like we were just two young girls in

223
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 3: sharing an apartment together with two other young women, and

224
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 3: people forget that we had two other roommates, and they

225
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 3: they portrayed us as complete opposites. So they took like

226
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 3: the British stereotype and said, oh, okay, Meredith is sort

227
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,240
Speaker 3: of uptight and prudish, and then they took the American

228
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,760
Speaker 3: girl's gone wild stereotype and said, Amanda's a dirty whore.

229
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,120
Speaker 3: And they said, well, obviously that they would hate each

230
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 3: other and Amanda would orchestrate a murder orgy to punish

231
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 3: her roommate, like.

232
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,000
Speaker 2: And then like that.

233
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 3: So just the complete dehumanization of both of us in

234
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:29,360
Speaker 3: that moment, acting as if Meredith was like this uptight, judgmental,

235
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,280
Speaker 3: prudish person when she absolutely was not. She was a

236
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 3: very like, you know, she was very sophisticated for her age,

237
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,680
Speaker 3: but like you know, she she had a little casual

238
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,360
Speaker 3: boyfriend that she was seeing, and she liked to go

239
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 3: out dancing, and she liked to have fun and she

240
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,480
Speaker 3: liked to laugh. Like she wasn't you know this this

241
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 3: prude who would never, you know, never go out dancing

242
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 3: and hang out with boys. Like it was just the

243
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:56,080
Speaker 3: way that they portrayed us was so misogynistic in like

244
00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,480
Speaker 3: the stereotyping, and for some reason just lapped that up,

245
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,360
Speaker 3: Like people, I don't understand why that narrative spoke to

246
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 3: so many people and resonated with so many people. It

247
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,920
Speaker 3: because it was it was complete fantasy and it's and

248
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 3: it was gross too, Like I don't know if you saw,

249
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 3: Like in the very early days of the investigation, Like

250
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 3: after I was arrested, detectives were talking like admitting to

251
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 3: press people that like they knew that I was guilty

252
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 3: from day one because I smelled like sex to them,

253
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 3: I smelled like sex.

254
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 2: And it's like, I.

255
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 3: May be the only person in the world who has

256
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 3: ever been accused of murder based on bo Like.

257
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 4: It's just like like really fucking seriously, Like yeah, it was.

258
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 3: It was gross, Like it was a gross hyper sexualization

259
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 3: of a twenty year old kid, and I like, I

260
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,520
Speaker 3: was just completely unprepared for it, and so like there

261
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 3: was cultural differences that led to this. I was not

262
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 3: like I did not grow up feeling like I was

263
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 3: sexually exotic in Italy. I was, and I didn't understand that.

264
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 3: I wasn't there long enough to appreciate, like, oh, an

265
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,320
Speaker 3: American girl with like they called me blonde, even though

266
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,199
Speaker 3: I'm clearly not blonde. But but like they said, the

267
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,200
Speaker 3: blonde American girl, and like they have this like hyped

268
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,120
Speaker 3: up fantasy around what that means.

269
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 2: And I and like, I didn't.

270
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 3: I that wasn't who I was, but I'm I'm an

271
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 3: American girl, ergo, we can just assume a lot of

272
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 3: things about her. And I just had no I had

273
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 3: no idea that that's what I was up against. And

274
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,439
Speaker 3: and this idea that like women hate women fundamentally, like

275
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 3: that that was something that was really baked into the

276
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,800
Speaker 3: narrative of this case, that women all secretly hate each other,

277
00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 3: and we are all secretly judging each other and and

278
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,479
Speaker 3: trying to undermine each other, and we're always in sexual

279
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 3: competition with each other. Like It's just this utterly misogynistic

280
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,960
Speaker 3: idea that did not represent at all what my relationship

281
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 3: was like with my roommate. But there was nothing I

282
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 3: could do about it. No one believed me.

283
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 1: Stay tuned. I'll be back in just a moment after

284
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:33,160
Speaker 1: this brief message from our sponsors. What I really really appreciated.

285
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 1: And I know you were a producer on the Hulu

286
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 1: show about your experience in your life, and you did

287
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 1: this with Monica Lewinsky, who also knows what it's like

288
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 1: to sit in your shoes, but in a different circumstance.

289
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,840
Speaker 1: But I want to say this, people assume that once

290
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,199
Speaker 1: you're free, everything goes back to normal.

291
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the truth only? Yeah, the truth that what

292
00:18:59,480 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 2: us is.

293
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

294
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was really important for both Monica and I

295
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 3: in doing the show. Was we typically when you hear

296
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,680
Speaker 3: about these like scandalous cases, and especially if they take

297
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 3: place in a courtroom, all of the drama is a

298
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,680
Speaker 3: courtroom drama and nobody is really interested in the before

299
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 3: the terrible crime occurred or the after. It's a lot

300
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 3: of just Okay, what is the crime and what is

301
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 3: the punishment. That's what the drama is. And I felt

302
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 3: that that was not something that I wanted to be

303
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 3: a part of. It's why I always pushed back against

304
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 3: the idea of doing a scripted version of my story

305
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 3: because that wasn't my story. That was just a bad

306
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 3: thing that happened to me. And it felt like it

307
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 3: didn't really I didn't understand what purpose it could serve

308
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:06,719
Speaker 3: because just the horribleness of the human drama had already

309
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 3: been very covered in a journalistic way, like through documentaries

310
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 3: and all of that. So for me to take part

311
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,400
Speaker 3: in something, I needed it to be reflective of what

312
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 3: I felt like was my story. So if I am

313
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 3: the protagonist of this story, I can't be a protagonist

314
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 3: that things are just happening too. I have to be

315
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 3: doing something. So it was important to me and Monica

316
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 3: and especially our showrunner. I can't say this enough k J. Steinberg,

317
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 3: who was our showrunner, Like, this could have been a

318
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 3: very bad experience for me, but she made it a

319
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 3: very positive experience for me by embracing the fact that

320
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 3: this was not just a story about a horrible thing

321
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 3: that happened to Meredith and a horrible thing that happened

322
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 3: to me. It was the story of who we were

323
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 3: before this bad thing happened and who I became afterwards,

324
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 3: and that is that is the story. How does a

325
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,679
Speaker 3: how does a tragedy like this take over a life?

326
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 3: And then how do you take back that life? And

327
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 3: so we were very very mindful to include moments in

328
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 3: the series that just showed us as young people. Like

329
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 3: there's a lot of time spent in there, the pre

330
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 3: murder of it all, where you just see us hanging out,

331
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 3: or me hanging out with Raphael La or where me

332
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 3: and Meredith just like hanging out in the bathroom, and

333
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 3: she's giving me little temporary tattoos, Like it's really important

334
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,719
Speaker 3: just get a sense of like, oh, here here are

335
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 3: these two young human beings, same stuff with like Meredith,

336
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: Like it was really important for me to show her

337
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 3: as a real young person and not just as this

338
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 3: like hyper anti sexualized corpse, like that's which is how

339
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 3: the prosecution created her. And then it was really important

340
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 3: to show the aftermath that, like that space of confusion

341
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 3: when you come home from something like this and you

342
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 3: presumably are free, and yet this narrative has taken over

343
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 3: your life. You've been living in this nightmare world for years,

344
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 3: and so going back to the real world is disorienting

345
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 3: and confusing. There's this desire to reconnect with humanity, but

346
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 3: a fear because of there's all of this bias against

347
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: you and you're treated not like a normal person, and

348
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 3: how do you grapple with that? How do you grapple

349
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 3: with the fact that there's probably nothing that I will

350
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 3: ever accomplish in my life that will ever define me

351
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 3: more than an accusation of a thing that.

352
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: I didn't do.

353
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 3: Like, that's a tremendously overwhelming existential crisis that I faced

354
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 3: upon coming home, and it was it could only be

355
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: answered for myself when I realized that, like, I needed

356
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 3: to understand why this had happened to me, and the

357
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 3: only way that I could was by directly confronting the

358
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 3: person who did this to me, my prosecutor.

359
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 2: So that's why I went back to see him.

360
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: And I love that. I love that you wanted to

361
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: do that, and that I just the bravery it takes

362
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 1: to go.

363
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm glad you liked it, because my family certainly didn't.

364
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: Oh I'm sure, Oh I am sure. But also, this

365
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: is your journey and this is your life and reclaiming it,

366
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: and you've got to keep moving in your own skin.

367
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: So what that feeling looks like to you versus everyone else,

368
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: It's like, I love that you went with your gut

369
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: and you did it, and you humanize this whole experience

370
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: because we do true crime paints everyone out to be

371
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: these monsters. They're not, you know, and it's like this narrative,

372
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, we're still talking about it, right, and it's

373
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 1: so beautiful that you show up and you're fighting wrongfully

374
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: convicted people, because it happens, we get it wrong all

375
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: the time, right.

376
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: And you've said that this was a really important part of

377
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: it for me.

378
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: You said this, you said the feeling, you said you've

379
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: the feeling free and freedom are two separate things. Speak

380
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: to me about that. What do you mean by that?

381
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 3: Well, so in our lives, I have found that, first

382
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 3: of all, we take for granted a lot of the

383
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 3: freedoms that we experience in our lives. And you don't

384
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 3: really fully understand what how like privileged we are to

385
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 3: be free unless you have your freedom stolen from you.

386
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: And but that freedom isn't just a physical freedom, like

387
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 3: it isn't just you're out of prison or not. Like

388
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 3: you can feel trapped in your own life. And I

389
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 3: think that's a really common experience for people, Like I

390
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: think that's a lot of where the like a midlife

391
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 3: crisis comes from, like suddenly realizing that you are on

392
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 3: this trajectory and you're life and you're like, wait, did

393
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: I make all.

394
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: These decisions like is this really what? Is this?

395
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: Who I am? Is this really what I want? And

396
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 3: I think we experience all of that. We all experience

397
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: that feeling, and I think a lot of people are

398
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 3: really discouraged to realize that, well, there's only so much

399
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: that I have control over. I can't control how other

400
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 3: people think about me, or I can't you know, I

401
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 3: can't just get everything that I want.

402
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: And for me, learning.

403
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 3: How to feel free again involved this counterintuitive psychological mental

404
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 3: gymnastics that I had to do ultimately, which were accepting

405
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 3: my reality for what it is, like this is this

406
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: is my reality, this is my life, this is my story.

407
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 3: It's not one that I chose. But can I have

408
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: a say? Am I just a victim of this circumstance

409
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 3: in this life? Or is this? Can this be fuel

410
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: for me? Is this something that can give me momentum?

411
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 3: And can I actually shape it? And the only way

412
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 3: that you can shape it is by being able to

413
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: see it clearly. You can't you can't be effective if

414
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: you don't even know what all the moving pieces are.

415
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 3: And so seeing it clearly means accepting it for what

416
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 3: it is.

417
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: And that.

418
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 3: So the counterintuitive part of that is realizing that I

419
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 3: don't get to not be the girl accused of murder, right,

420
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 3: that is what it is. I am the girl who

421
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: was accused of murder.

422
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: Now what now?

423
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: What do I do with that? And that was really

424
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 3: liberating realizing that it wasn't just up to the people

425
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: who had put me in this situation. It was up

426
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: to me to make my life meaningful, to make to

427
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: make it so that I had a say in something,

428
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 3: and figuring out what that was involves some deep, deep

429
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 3: thinking about what my values were. Like I talk to

430
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 3: a lot of people now about when they're feeling confused

431
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: or lost, and often I'm like, Okay, the question isn't

432
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: what you should do now, the question is what is

433
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 3: important to you? And for me, it all boils down

434
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 3: to curiosity, compassion, and courage. So if something if I

435
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: don't understand something, I move towards it. If someone is

436
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: in pain, I move towards them. If said there's something

437
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: I'm afraid of, I move towards that. Those are like

438
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: guiding principles for me, and that all helped me figure

439
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 3: out the what to do because it was based on

440
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: the what was important to me.

441
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love when you just so beautifully said,

442
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: and I imagine it took so much work to get here.

443
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, you make it sound like, oh,

444
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: just land on the plane here, But yeah, I just

445
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: can I can feel it in the way you speak

446
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: about it. You've done so much work to get here.

447
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: Because also there's there's something you do, such a beautiful job.

448
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: And I want to ask how, because you separate who

449
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: you are now from what happened to you. And I'm

450
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: sure there's days where it's not It doesn't always feel good.

451
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't maybe you are pissed, and maybe you are

452
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: rightfully angry, like a lot was stolen from you. But

453
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: clearly you have done the work and you probably are

454
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: still doing the work every single day to not slip

455
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: into that because it'll take more from you. And you

456
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: have such a light. And I know a lot of

457
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: people whether things have happened to them with you know,

458
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted, sexual violence, you name it, and they don't

459
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: know how to carry it, and they don't know how

460
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: to separate it, and it does become their identity, and

461
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: it's the sense of damage and fractured and you walk

462
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: with that pain every single day. How do you separate

463
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: it so, well.

464
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: Well, that's a really great question, and I think that

465
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,959
Speaker 3: one thing that's really important to acknowledge for people in

466
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: case they don't, like, say, they have someone in their

467
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: life like that, like who is carrying with them the

468
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 3: damaged parts of themselves and are really like elevating that

469
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 3: part of themselves. I think that a lot of times

470
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: that occurs because we feel like if we are not

471
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: asserting how we have been hurt, we're almost like giving up,

472
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: or like we're saying, no one wants to say, what

473
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 3: happened to me was okay?

474
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: When it was not.

475
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 3: It was not okay, whatever the thing is. If it's

476
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: sexual assault, wrongful conviction, what happened was not okay, And

477
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: it's almost like if you are okay later on, no

478
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 3: one believes you that this non like this horrible thing

479
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: happens to you like and like, and it's true, like

480
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: people to this day have said things to me like, well,

481
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 3: you're clearly doing so well. What happened to you must

482
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: not have been as bad as things that other happen

483
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: to other people. Like people seem to sort of assume

484
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: that you can measure how bad something was by how

485
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: debilitated the person is later.

486
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: And that's that's not the case.

487
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: And I think there is a sort of fear that

488
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: if you become okay in the aftermath, that somehow negates

489
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: the bad thing that happened to you. And I push

490
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: back against that as that like that idea.

491
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: Because.

492
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: It's the measure of you. Is the measure of you,

493
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: Like anybody can be functional and happy no matter what

494
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 3: the circumstance it is. It's a matter of perspective. And

495
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: the important perspective to know is that you don't have

496
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: to push away the anger and the hurt, like a

497
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: lot of people when they talk to me. They Just

498
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: a few days ago, I gave a talk and somebody

499
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: asked me, well, how how did you get rid of

500
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 3: the anger? And I was like, girl, I didn't get

501
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 3: rid of the anger. The anger is still there, like

502
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 3: I'm still the wound is still there, like it's not

503
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: ever gonna go away. I've just learned to appreciate it

504
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: for what it is, and I've learned how to treat

505
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 3: it as instead of as this baggage that I have

506
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 3: to carry around, it's instead fuel. It informs me, It

507
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: energizes me, and it's important that it does so. Like

508
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: the more you try to repress any of the bad

509
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: feelings that you have, the more control they're going to

510
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 3: have over you. So for me, like to you know,

511
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 3: I get angry and I but the thing that I

512
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: don't want today is for my anger or my sadness,

513
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: the deep deep sadness, that feeling of being betrayed, like

514
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: all of that, I don't want to impact what I

515
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: have in this moment because in this moment, this is it.

516
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: All I have is right now, and I if I'm

517
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: stuck in the past, I can't be living what I

518
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: have right now, Like life is precious. If there's one

519
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 3: thing that I've learned from this experience, it's as life

520
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 3: is fucking precious and you never know when it's going

521
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: to be taken from you, and so just live it,

522
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: like live it and try like allow yourself to feel

523
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: the rage and then ask yourself, what is this rage for?

524
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: What could this rage be for? It's for me. It's

525
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: a remind of like when something needs to be defended

526
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: or protected, Like rage is a feeling that turns into

527
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: protection energy. From me, I've learned how to like and

528
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: protect myself or protect others, Like if I'm feeling rage,

529
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 3: I'm alerted that it's like an.

530
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: Alarm going off.

531
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: That's something somebody is being hurt and I can come

532
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: in and protect them or protect myself.

533
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: But that's what it's for.

534
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: It's not for me to just be triggered easily and

535
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: therefore yelling at my kids. Like you know, it's important

536
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: to know how to direct the energy that you feel,

537
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: and so that's I think how I am able to

538
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: do that is I've learned how to understand what my

539
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: emotions are for where they're coming from, and I've learned

540
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: how to direct them in a positive way.

541
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: I love that. Do you feel that becoming a mom

542
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 1: has helped shift that perspective? Because motherhood and protection and

543
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: everything you're talking about, everything you went through, do you

544
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: think becoming a mom has shifted that perspective in you?

545
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: Becoming a mom gave me a sense of urgency in

546
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: addressing any ways that I was still dysfunctional as a

547
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 3: result of all of the bad things. Like when I

548
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 3: got pregnant, I was so excited because I've always wanted

549
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 3: to be a mom, and then when they sentenced me

550
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: to twenty six years, I thought that was stolen from me.

551
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 3: So I had to grieve the thought that I could

552
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 3: ever be a mother. But then I finally got that back,

553
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: and so I'm finally becoming a mother. And I was

554
00:34:53,920 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: suddenly stricken with this sense of urgency to rid myself

555
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 3: of bad energy that I had still sort of unresolved

556
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: in my body. Because your body, I mean your mother.

557
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 3: You know, your body is the whole world for your

558
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: kid for a good while, and like even afterwards, like

559
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: you have an outside influence on like the the fundamental

560
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 3: nature of this human being that you are responsible for.

561
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: And I didn't want to unintentionally pass on any of

562
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: what felt like poison inside of me. So I was

563
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: I was determined to either get the poison out or

564
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 3: transform it into medicine. And that was what led me ultimately,

565
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: Like it was a huge thing that led me to

566
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 3: go back to Italy and just confront this thing head

567
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 3: on and that and learning what that required of me,

568
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 3: because it wasn't just showing up and wagging my finger

569
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: at my prosecutor, like that wasn't the point. The point

570
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: was to recognize that whatever outside influence this person has

571
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 3: had on my life, I'm the one who ultimately has

572
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 3: responsibility for it, and I have much to give as

573
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 3: a result of everything that happened to me. It's not

574
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: just what was taken from me, but what I now

575
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 3: have that I didn't have otherwise, that I can now give.

576
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: And with that going back to Italy, and I just

577
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: have been dying to ask this question, what does forgiveness

578
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: mean to you now? If anything? After you went back?

579
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 3: So a lot of people ask me about forgiveness because

580
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: I think they assume that that's what my intention was,

581
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: was to forgive people, and it wasn't. Actually I was

582
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: not going to Italy to forgive anyone. I was going

583
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 3: to Italy to understand them. I was not satisfied with

584
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: easy answers about you know, my prosecutor was just an

585
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 3: evil guy who was selfish and cowardly and didn't care

586
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: if an innocent girl was in prison or not. Like

587
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 3: that's what people were telling me was the reason why

588
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 3: everything happened to me, and.

589
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: I didn't believe that.

590
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 3: I thought that it was more complicated than that. I

591
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: think that the vast majority of people think they're doing

592
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 3: the right thing, even when they're doing the wrong thing.

593
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 3: And so what I wanted to know is how and

594
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 3: why this person could believe they were doing the right

595
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 3: thing by putting an innocent girl in prison, And so

596
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: going back there required that I again am informed by

597
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: my rage, but also compartmentalize it and put put aside

598
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 3: my feelings of hurt to honestly be open and non

599
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 3: judgmental about a person who is telling me their honest

600
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 3: thoughts and feelings at the at the moment, in the time.

601
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: And like, this is a person who to this day

602
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 3: thinks that even if he would never prosecute the case

603
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: again in the same way because he, you know, he

604
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 3: now knows who I am and I'm not the person

605
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: that he thought he was prosecuting. Like looking back, he's like, well,

606
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: I don't know. It just felt logical to me at

607
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 3: the time, like that it just like I didn't I don't.

608
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: He to this day says, I don't feel like I

609
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: did anything wrong because based on the information that I

610
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: had at the time, this was this was the rational

611
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: thing to me.

612
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: And and then you.

613
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 3: Sort of feel the rage boiling out the side because

614
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 3: you're like, no.

615
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: It wasn't rational at all.

616
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 3: You made up a lot of crazy shit, Like you

617
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: just made stuff up. But like if you really like

618
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: take a step back and go, okay, in his reality,

619
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: certain things are feel real to him. Like, for example,

620
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 3: he just from the beginning assumed that a woman was

621
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 3: involved in this crime because my roommate's body was covered

622
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 3: with a blanket, and so like, in his mind, it

623
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: is totally rational to think that only a woman would

624
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 3: cover another woman's body with a blanket, and therefore a

625
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 3: woman was involved in this crime, and we can sort

626
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 3: of logically deduce that the most likely candidate is her roommate,

627
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 3: like like that is for him, totally logical. And then

628
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 3: when I point out to him that that's not a fact,

629
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 3: Like it's not a fact that only a woman would

630
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: cover another curve body with a blanket. Yeah, like that's

631
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 3: that's not a fact. That's an idea, that's an opinion.

632
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 3: It's not a fact. And like for some people, it's

633
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: really really difficult to distinguish between a fact and an opinion,

634
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 3: like because it feels that opinions feel real, they feel.

635
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 2: Like facts to us.

636
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: And so I can, like, if I am able to

637
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: sort of take a step back, I can appreciate his

638
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: his logic and his like his like his rational reasoning

639
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: and his feelings about the entire thing, and I can

640
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: I can hold that and at the same time hold

641
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: all of my hurt and my pain and this never

642
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: should have happened, all of that, All of that can

643
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 3: coexist even though it feels like it's intention. And what

644
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: I've discovered to answer your question about forgiveness is that

645
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: the more the more curious I am about a person,

646
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 3: the more I want to understand them, the more I

647
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 3: naturally feel compassion arising in me.

648
00:40:58,880 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: For that person.

649
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true of everyone, but to me,

650
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 3: the more I understand another human being, the more I can,

651
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 3: if not empathize with them, at least feel for them,

652
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: Like I can totally understand his point of view and

653
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 3: still totally disagree with it, and at the same time

654
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: recognize him and his human frailties, like we all are imperfect.

655
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 3: We all don't want to be judged by the worst

656
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: thing that we've ever done, like all of the He's scared,

657
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 3: Like my prosecutor, I discovered was someone who's deeply afraid

658
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 3: of what it would mean to be wrong. And he's afraid,

659
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 3: And if anything, like being a mom has sort of

660
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 3: helped me to be able to hold him in his

661
00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 3: fear and in his in his like it's fear. He's afraid,

662
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 3: and like I can have compassion for somebody who is afraid,

663
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 3: even if it comes at a cost to me, just

664
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: because like I can, I can hold all of those

665
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 3: things at once. And I think being a mother asks

666
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 3: us to sort of hold a lot of things at

667
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 3: like a lot of conflicting and things that are intention

668
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 3: And I think that that just made it. It didn't

669
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: excuse any of his behavior. I didn't like excuse it.

670
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: I never never at any point said well, it wasn't

671
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: bad then what you did, like it was still bad,

672
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 3: but like I can appreciate him for who he is

673
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: then and today, And so I think it looks like

674
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 3: forgiveness from the outside because I'm not raging against this person.

675
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 3: I'm not like hating this person. I don't hate him.

676
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 3: I'm still angry over what happened, but I don't think

677
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: inflicting on him is going to help me in any way.

678
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: It doesn't help me, and it just hurts me even

679
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 3: more because that separation keeps happening. I just want to

680
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: feel understood, and so approaching him from a non judgmental

681
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: way also sort of opened the door for him to

682
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 3: approach me in a non judgmental way, and you have

683
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 3: the cyprocal You have so.

684
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: Much grace and very few people had that same grace

685
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: towards you, and that that is a testament to your

686
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: character and the work you've done, and I like, I

687
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: hope you receive that because you have a lot of

688
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: grace for people who are very quick to not have

689
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: that sense of grace. This is wide open and I'm

690
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 1: your host, Ashlyn Harris. Thanks for listening. We'll be right back.

691
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: The true crime community and industry need like they need

692
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: to change, They need to they exploit the media, Like,

693
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: what do you think needs to because right now we're

694
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: living in the era of true crime. People just want

695
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: to consume it, consume it, consume it, consuming all the time.

696
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's leading the church charts everywhere. What do

697
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: you think, as someone who's been involved in it and

698
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 1: it's gone. I've seen every version of every different type

699
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: of true crime media about your story. That possible. I mean,

700
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: I can't imagine how many are out there right now.

701
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: But what needs to change?

702
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: That's a great question.

703
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that is really important

704
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 3: that people should really consider more than they do is,

705
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 3: first of all, just what's at stake for the people

706
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: who are actually at the center of these stories.

707
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 2: I think there is a.

708
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 3: Kind of flippancy that that creators feel towards the subjects

709
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 3: at the center of these stories, like this sense of

710
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 3: entitlement to portray them and the worst experiences of their

711
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 3: lives just for the just for the heck of it,

712
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: because it's interesting to people, Like it's in the public interest,

713
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 3: in the sense that they say, well, people are interested

714
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: in it, so therefore why not. And it's like, well,

715
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 3: the telling of the story itself becomes part of that

716
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 3: person's journey to that becomes a part of that person's

717
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 3: life too.

718
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 2: Like I've interviewed people.

719
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 3: Who who talked about how like they were victims of crime,

720
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 3: victims of crime who then went on to tell their

721
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 3: story with a media outlet and felt like the media's

722
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 3: treatment of them was more traumatizing than the crime itself.

723
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's heavy, which.

724
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: Like it's I cannot emphasize this enough that people do

725
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: not understand the deep wounds that can result from having

726
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 3: your identity and your story stolen from you. Like it's

727
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 3: one thing to have your body like taken advantage of,

728
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: like to be a victim of a sexual assault, like

729
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 3: I'm the woman I'm referring to was a repeated like

730
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 3: she was sex trafficked, and then when she told her story,

731
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 3: they they turned her into some like dumb you know,

732
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: dumb bimbo and as and sort of like wink wink.

733
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,720
Speaker 3: It's kind of her fault because she's a dumb bimbo

734
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 3: like victim, blaming her for what happened to her when

735
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: she was brainwashed and sex trafficked like so and to

736
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 3: this day, like she's repeatedly raped in her life and

737
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: says that the way that the media treated her made

738
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 3: her feel like made her hate herself more than the

739
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 3: actual crime that was committed against her. And I think

740
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: that content creators should really keep that in mind. That

741
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 3: like the idea, there's this term that is out there

742
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 3: in the world of psychology, which is narrative foreclosure, that

743
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 3: feeling that you are not the protagonist of your own story,

744
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 3: that you don't get to have a say about who

745
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 3: you are or what your character is that has been

746
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 3: stripped of you and you are just a villain or

747
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 3: a victim in somebody else's narrative and you don't have

748
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 3: a say like people who have had so much taken

749
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 3: from them, want to have a say in how people

750
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 3: understand them and what it is that we learn from

751
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 3: these real life things that happen, these real life tragedies

752
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 3: that happen. We want to have a say in what

753
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 3: that means for the rest of us. But like the

754
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 3: way that Hollywood and all, you know, all content creation

755
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 3: around true crime has been that you have to be

756
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 3: an outsider looking in in order to have any kind

757
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 3: of valuable thing to say about the story, And that's

758
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: absolute bullshit. Like you can be you can be someone

759
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: who was at the center of a story and have

760
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 3: a very important and valuable perspective about what it means

761
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 3: for the rest of us and why it should or

762
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 3: should not be in the public interest. Right, Like, you know,

763
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: looking back on my own story, I'm just appalled that

764
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 3: so much time was spent scrutinizing my sex life, which

765
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 3: was utterly irrelevant to the story at hand, Like to

766
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 3: what happened to my roommate. My sex life had nothing

767
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 3: to do with my roommate's rape and murder, Like it

768
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 3: just absolutely did not. I had no relationship with the

769
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 3: murderer and so period done, and it did not matter

770
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 3: that I had casually hooked up with somebody a few

771
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: weeks earlier, like that was irrelevant, and yet it was

772
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 3: used as a like it so much focus was on,

773
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: oh are you into kinky things?

774
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: Are you like? Are you like?

775
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 3: It's And it was merely because that was just like

776
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 3: scandalous and interesting from a storytelling perspective, like, oh yeah,

777
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 3: how can we what would make this this person interesting?

778
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: Oh well, it's a sex crime and she was a

779
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 3: young woman having sex, being like we can put those

780
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 3: things together. No, Like it's so like to this day,

781
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 3: it's just like for me, as as somebody who does

782
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 3: create content around true crime, I'm always trying to think

783
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 3: about who has the most at stake and what does

784
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 3: it mean for this story to be told, Which is why,

785
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 3: like when I was doing the Hulu show for Examp,

786
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: it was really important to me to portray my prosecutor,

787
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 3: for example, in his full complexity, Like he has a history,

788
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 3: he has a world around him that is informing his perspective.

789
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: It's not just like he appeared out of nothing and

790
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 3: started making horrible decisions like he has like there, he's

791
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 3: influenced by a lot of factors, and you know, I

792
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 3: wanted people to be able to watch the show and think,

793
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: oh my god, I completely am horrified by what is

794
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 3: happening here, but I also understand where he's coming from.

795
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: Like that's what I was hoping people would take away,

796
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 3: as they would be able to say, oh, well, clearly

797
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 3: somebody who had this kind of upbringing and had all

798
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 3: of these voices whispering in his ear would be informed

799
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 3: by that and would be making decisions based upon that,

800
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 3: and so that like it's not just pigeonholing people into

801
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 3: exact narratives.

802
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: It's so true. And you said this, you know, maybe

803
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago you were like, I just wanted

804
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 1: to be understood. And that's like so beautiful about your

805
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: podcast Hard Knocks is like you're giving people space and

806
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: it's coming from a real life perspective. It's not a hypothetical.

807
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: It's like I can't put myself in your shoes, but

808
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: you can put yourself in these people's shoes that you're interviewing,

809
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: and you bring a sense of safety and understanding and

810
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: common ground that I imagine makes it easier for them

811
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: to feel connected. And you know, I think this is

812
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: an important question to ask, and I love that you

813
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: said this, What do you think after all the things

814
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: you've done, You've been so vulnerable, You've given so much

815
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: grace to a lot of fucking people who don't deserve it.

816
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: In my opinion, what do you What are people still

817
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: getting wrong to this day?

818
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: What do you feel.

819
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: Even though you've given everyone all of these corners and

820
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: avenues to understand the story, to understand your perspective, what

821
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: are people still getting wrong? Well?

822
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think there's still a lot of

823
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,240
Speaker 3: just on a personal note, a lot of people still

824
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 3: speculate about my character and whether or not I'm just

825
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 3: a master criminal psychopath who's been putting on a pretend

826
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: show for eighteen years now and I'm just pretending to

827
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 3: be a normal, compassionate, articulate person when I'm really just

828
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 3: a cunning psychopath.

829
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: I think there's that ongoing idea. I think there's people.

830
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 3: I mean, even just recently, there was a so this

831
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 3: new documentary came out which my husband directed, called Mouth

832
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 3: of the Wolf, and it was him. He took all

833
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 3: these videos of me going back to Italy. So it's

834
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 3: a lot of that, like just real footage from our

835
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 3: lives of me making that decision and going and sort

836
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 3: of explaining in all of my like turmoil around that,

837
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 3: and one of the responses that I read was again,

838
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 3: somebody who believes that I'm guilty, so they're gonna have

839
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 3: their sort of biased opinion. But they were like, well,

840
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 3: Amanda appears to be this like really great person now,

841
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: but she was, you know, a psychopath back then. And

842
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 3: it's just like, I feel, what's really I think a

843
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: lot of people look at me and see me as

844
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 3: somebody who has been super successful in changing the narrative

845
00:53:54,360 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 3: around me, but you know, I didn't do that. For like,

846
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 3: there are people who are deeply invested in the idea

847
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 3: of me being a psychopath who I cannot reach, and

848
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 3: that is something that I've had to accept that there

849
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 3: are just some people who are going to see reality

850
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 3: in a certain way and they are deeply invested in

851
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 3: doing so, so like they're not going to their ability

852
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 3: to interpret reality is through a filter that is the

853
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 3: assumption of my guilt, and then they see everything through

854
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 3: the assumption of my guilt. And I think that that

855
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 3: is something that I learned from this experience, is that,

856
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 3: and it's something that's really troubling when it comes to

857
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 3: just how we relate to each other in the world

858
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 3: is we all have, whether we know it or not,

859
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 3: these filters through which we see reality. And one person

860
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 3: is going to see one thing a certain way and

861
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 3: another person is going to see the exact same thing

862
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 3: and view it in a completely different way. And that's

863
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 3: why we have so much conflict in society, is because

864
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 3: we can't agree on what facts are because we are

865
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: interpreting facts to mean different things. So again, that difference

866
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 3: between what is a fact and what is an opinion

867
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 3: is is really difficult to untangle because that filter is

868
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 3: the thing. That filter of interpretation is how we even

869
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 3: receive the information the fact in the first place. And

870
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 3: so like, as I think about what my work is

871
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 3: in this world and what it means, a lot of

872
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 3: it is spent trying to unpack how those filters have

873
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 3: have made it, have made it, like have sort of

874
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 3: predetermined our interpretation of reality, and start trying to sort

875
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 3: of like pull those pull those curtains aside so we

876
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 3: can just see things for as they really are and

877
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 3: only then interpret what we want to from them.

878
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 2: So that sounds very abstract.

879
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 3: But I think the ultimate thing that I suppose I'm

880
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 3: trying to say is that I haven't got everything figured out.

881
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 3: I haven't changed everyone's mind, and I'm still to this

882
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 3: day figuring out what happened to me. Like I'm not

883
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 3: over it, and nor should I be, nor should anyone,

884
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 3: because I feel like just because something happened in the

885
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 3: past doesn't mean that it doesn't have resonance in the future.

886
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: And I'm especially interested in one trying not to repeat

887
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 3: the same mistakes that people did towards me, but two

888
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 3: trying to help take what wisdom I can from my

889
00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 3: story and helping elevate other people's stories through that, through

890
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 3: that wiser perspective.

891
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: Wow. You uh, you you you hold a lot of

892
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: power in that. It's incredible to hear you speak because

893
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: most people can't even comprehend or imagine what you've gone

894
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: through and what you've had to carry, and yet here

895
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: you are serving other people, building a life, building a family,

896
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: building this voice, all of these projects. It's just an

897
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: incredible amount of strength and it just it's it's good

898
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: to see you on this side. Like I'm I'm I'm

899
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: very grateful that you trusted me to speak to me

900
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: about it today. But but what I love is the

901
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: vision and like, what how you see the world now?

902
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: You're not playing this victim card, You're you're making the

903
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: power is in the way you're showing up. And I

904
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: want you to know that it's really incredible to see

905
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: to be in the same room as you, to have

906
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: conversations with you, because not many people can be on

907
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: the other side. Not many people get to the other

908
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 1: side of this, and I think that's why your podcast

909
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: is so important too, And I would love for you

910
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: to share with everyone you know where to find your

911
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: podcast Hard Knocks. Talk about the release this January of

912
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: Mouth of the Wolf, Like where can everyone see these projects?

913
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:43,439
Speaker 1: Because they're really important and I want people to check

914
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: it out.

915
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so anyone can find out what I'm working on

916
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 3: at Amanda Knox dot com. That's kind of like baseline.

917
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 3: But yes, I have a podcast called hard Knocks, which

918
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 3: is available wherever you can get your podcasts, and in it,

919
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 3: I have conversations with people about really difficult times in

920
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 3: their lives or I also do you know audio essays

921
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 3: where I dissect like a complex idea, so that can

922
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 3: that's Hard Knocks. I also have a podcast series out

923
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 3: through iHeartMedia, which is called Doubt The case of Lucy

924
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 3: let Be another case of a very emotionally charged, controversial

925
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 3: narrative around a woman accused of heinous crimes. That is

926
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 3: that took place in the UK very recently. So if

927
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 3: anyone's interested in hearing how I'm applying my perspective to

928
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 3: other people's cases, that's a very good example.

929
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: So doubt the Case of Lucy let Be.

930
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 3: And beyond that, the most recent documentary about my experience

931
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 3: is called Mouth of the Wolf. It's available on Hulu

932
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 3: and Disney Plus, and it's a very very personal, intimate

933
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 3: portrait of me in the aftermath of all of this,

934
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: all this crazy story, and taking it upon myself to

935
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 3: go back to Italy to confront what happened. So you

936
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 3: can see that, and then, of course, if you want

937
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 3: to learn more about the case, The Twisted Tail of

938
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 3: Amanda Knox is on Hulu and Disney Plus as well,

939
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 3: and that that more. That's the scripted version of everything

940
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 3: that happened.

941
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: To me in Italy. Well, thank you so much for

942
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: being here today and showing up and being wide open

943
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: and yeah, that was that. This is a special episode

944
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 1: and I appreciate the way you show up over and

945
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: over and over again, so thank thank you, Amanda.

946
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 2: Well, thank you Ashlynn. No, I really appreciate the opportunity.

947
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: All right, everyone, we will see you next week on

948
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: another episode of Wide Open. What an incredible conversation. Her sense,

949
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, her, Amanda's sense of strength really comes through

950
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: in this conversation. I think what stayed with me so

951
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: much is the strength it takes to keep choosing a

952
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: life that's yours, especially when so much of it was

953
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: once taken from you. Amanda's honesty, her willingness to sit

954
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: in the uncomfortable but still move forward. It's powerful, and

955
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: I don't take that lightly because trust is such a

956
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: big thing in her world, and for her to share

957
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: and be so open really is magical. And she has

958
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: such a lightness and airiness about her and giving so

959
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: much grace when so little was given to her during

960
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: this time. I imagine so much was taken. This conversation wasn't

961
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: about headlines. It was about humanity. It was about identity.

962
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: It's about what it takes and what it really means

963
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: to heal and keep moving forward. Thank you for being here, Amanda,

964
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing all the wisdom and what you've

965
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: had to walk through to get on this other side,

966
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: and what a light she is. This is Wide Open

967
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: and we'll see you next time. Wide Open with Ashland

968
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: Harris is an iHeart women's sports production. You can find

969
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

970
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Our producers are Carmen Borca Correo, Emily Maronov,

971
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: and Lucy Jones. Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive

972
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: producers are Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our

973
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: editors are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder and I'm your host,

974
01:02:53,040 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: Ashlan Harris