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Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well

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Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The

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Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,

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Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's

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Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's

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Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,

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Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted

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Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders

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Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled

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Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the

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Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela

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Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Previously on The Burden, Derek came to Auburn.

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Speaker 3: How many of you guys know what a burden prove

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Speaker 3: was a four forty motion? Nobody knows in the law library.

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Speaker 3: Is when I learned that Scott Seller is his cop

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Speaker 3: and I say, damn man, it's the same fucker that

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Speaker 3: train me. You, Me and Derek all three of us

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Speaker 3: in the law library. We'd be able to run.

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Speaker 2: It like it's a real law firm.

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Speaker 3: Scott's soler the kids to run around.

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Speaker 2: Thank He's God.

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Speaker 3: I got a problem with that. I would die before

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Speaker 3: I met killing somebody didn't kill.

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Speaker 4: That's Derek Hamilton, legal savant and convicted murderer. It's two

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Speaker 4: thousand and nine and he has a parole hearing coming

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Speaker 4: up at that exact moment. Derek is forty four years

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Speaker 4: old and has been in prison most of his adult life.

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Speaker 3: I was in some of the toughest prison in the

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Speaker 3: state and about the water being black, like totally black,

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Speaker 3: totally totally black. For days, I was swing Litigayden.

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Speaker 4: Derek would file grievances, sue for better food, claimed to

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Speaker 4: be Jewish at one point so he could get the

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Speaker 4: kosher meals. He fought a disciplinary ticket issued because he

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Speaker 4: had a picture of a topless woman. Derek claimed that

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Speaker 4: that was not explicitly prohibited in the manual of conduct. Eventually,

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Speaker 4: the prison threw him in involuntary protective custody. It's solitary,

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Speaker 4: but without a release date. They said it was for

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Speaker 4: his protection. They claimed members of the Blood's gang were

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Speaker 4: after him. Derek protested that he didn't need protection. He

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Speaker 4: claimed that it was retaliation by the prison for all

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Speaker 4: of his grievances.

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Speaker 1: In Derek's mind, there were only two ways out of prison.

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Speaker 1: One was to admit to a er he claims he

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Speaker 1: didn't do, show remorse in front of the parole board.

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Speaker 3: You gotta say you killed this guy. If you don't,

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Speaker 3: you're never getting out of prison.

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Speaker 1: Or the other option.

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Speaker 3: Was that I had to leave prison in a box.

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Speaker 5: Storm cloud of comments common straight to you can't run

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Speaker 5: for shelter. There's nothing you can't do.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dax Devlin Ross.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Steve Fishman. Welcome to the Burden. In this

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Speaker 1: episode The Derek Dilemma.

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Speaker 4: Derek Hamilton and Louis Scarcela names forever linked.

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Speaker 2: Derek became Louis nemesis.

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Speaker 4: Louis was the story detective and Derek the marginalized convict.

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Speaker 2: But Derek, he also had a couple of.

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Speaker 4: Things going for him, his relentlessness and his growing credibility.

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Speaker 1: His credibility, yes, that was a key. What happens to

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Speaker 1: that credibility when Derek admits he's a manipulator and a liar.

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Speaker 6: Derek was a violent guy.

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Speaker 2: God like God when it comes to criminal law, A

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Speaker 2: man whose mind is like a human legal computer.

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Speaker 6: He had a reputation on the street. People you know

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Speaker 6: wouldn't fuck with Derek.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it. I owe anybody the truth against

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Speaker 3: my interest.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how many people he killed. You got

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Speaker 1: a hold all time.

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Speaker 4: Around the time Louis Scarcela was starting his rise as

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Speaker 4: a cop in the late seventies, Derek was a kid

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Speaker 4: in a working class part of Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: I should liked the West suits. As a kid, my

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Speaker 3: favorite was a quarter Ways shoe. Wasn't my favorite light

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Speaker 3: Quarterways shoe and a brown collar. Hey brother's laugh, you know,

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Speaker 3: and Sudie you know. But that was my identity. It

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Speaker 3: made me feel good, like I was empowered, like I

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Speaker 3: can run the world.

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Speaker 2: He got a reputation for being smart.

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Speaker 3: I mean when he came to reading comprehension, it's weird

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Speaker 3: icel So in those days, I got a suit on.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to the spelling bee. I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: the smartest guy in that spelling bee. I'm feeling, you know,

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Speaker 3: like I'm gonna take the spelling me.

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Speaker 4: He says he was so good at them that the

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Speaker 4: school stopped letting him participate. After Derek's family fell on

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Speaker 4: hard times, they moved to a project in Brooklyn called

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Speaker 4: Lafayette Gardens. It was like a small town, seven high rises,

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Speaker 4: almost a thousand departments.

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Speaker 2: Many of the residents were poor. It was a big

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Speaker 2: change for Derek.

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Speaker 3: You got a pay of sneakers or basketball. The housing

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Speaker 3: projects I came from. When you went downstairs with some

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Speaker 3: kid or whatever, try to take him from you. As

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Speaker 3: you get older, you realize that there's some older guys

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Speaker 3: that can fight. There's some older guys that's taking stuff.

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Speaker 3: These guys can fight the ass or It seemed like

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Speaker 3: these guys would just just live to fight, you know,

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Speaker 3: so you have to get it on a delly.

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Speaker 4: One summer day, Derek was in a Brooklyn park around

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 2: He's just entered his teens.

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Speaker 4: The early days of hip hop DJ's were popping up everywhere.

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Speaker 2: They were Park James Sins, they were called. At the time.

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Speaker 4: People were out all night long dancing and Derek was

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Speaker 4: among them.

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Speaker 2: I ran into our young brother.

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Speaker 3: Man God by the name of Baby Popper, who was

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Speaker 3: one of the flyers. Guys you would see riding minibody.

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Speaker 2: Had they can't go at man.

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Speaker 1: This dude was just fly.

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Speaker 3: He got a raggedy twenty two pistol to me, rubber bands.

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Speaker 1: You gotta put rubber rams around.

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Speaker 2: It, man, to shoot this thing.

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Speaker 3: So this guy, you gotta put rubber bands around it.

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Speaker 2: To shoot him.

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Speaker 1: Shooting up in the head.

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Speaker 3: And chasing everybody out of the park gym. But for

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Speaker 3: that moment, you see as a young kid, like damn,

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Speaker 3: people were really scared. So a whole level of power

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Speaker 3: comes to your mom because you said, all these mothers.

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Speaker 1: Tough, but all I'm tough, motherfucker. The fight was running.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get beat up no more. At fifteen

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Speaker 1: years old, Derek robbed a man coming out of a

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Speaker 1: check cashing store. The spelling bee chap was going gangster.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly the toughest people in the neighborhood started looking up

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Speaker 1: to him.

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Speaker 2: I was a terrible kid at seventeen years old. If

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Speaker 2: you gave me your cost, Steve, you wouldn't get in it.

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Speaker 2: Back in his.

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Speaker 4: View, it was all dumb adolescent shit. It was peer pressure, situational,

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Speaker 4: not a verdict on his character.

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Speaker 3: I make no excuse for it, but these are things

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Speaker 3: that was going on my community.

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Speaker 2: One day at a park, Jim Derek was talking to

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Speaker 2: some girls.

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Speaker 3: Next thing I know, I see these guys with guns

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Speaker 3: out and they approaching.

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Speaker 2: I got a gun a shoe.

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Speaker 1: He hit someone in the leg. On other days he

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Speaker 1: wondered if he was the next target.

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Speaker 3: I used to say this prayer when I was a kid,

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Speaker 3: and I used to get away with a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 3: I'll be honest with you times when I figured I

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Speaker 3: should have been dead, that I was alive. Damn. His

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Speaker 3: prayer must work, and the prayers for protection, Saint Michael

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Speaker 3: ar change you. The fame of my time of battle

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Speaker 3: against the wickedness stays of the devil.

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Speaker 1: Father Jesus, pray for me.

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Speaker 2: That's the prayer.

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Speaker 3: It's a simple prayer.

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Speaker 1: And when you think about it, the devil who's that.

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Speaker 3: This is the people who attempt to lock you up.

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Speaker 6: I dealt with notorious drug dealers from Brownsville, East, New York, Bedford, Styde.

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Speaker 2: They all knew Derek.

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Speaker 1: Joe Ponzie was chief investigator for the Brooklyn DA's office.

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Speaker 6: Derek was a violent guy, and Derek had a real

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Speaker 6: tough reputation on the street. The Hamilton Brothers were known

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Speaker 6: as drug dealers in that area at that time.

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Speaker 1: Joe Ponzie worked closely with his friend, Detective Louis Scarcella. Well,

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Speaker 1: what else do you want me to tell you about

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Speaker 1: Derek Hamilton. Louis once joke Derek killed more people than

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Speaker 1: small box. He probably did. I mean, that's just an

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Speaker 1: expression that I use. But he wrote his book. The

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Speaker 1: book it was actually Derek's sisters book. She called it

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Speaker 1: Don't let your Elevator Get stuck on Stupid. It was

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Speaker 1: supposed to scare kids straight. There's one chapter about Derek's

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Speaker 1: life written under his name. He signed off on it

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Speaker 1: from Attica prison. Louis often talks about this book to him.

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Speaker 1: It reveals the true Derek Hamilton.

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Speaker 4: Here's an excerpt for you. My name became a permanent

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Speaker 4: part of the ghetto gossip. All the guys challenged me,

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Speaker 4: and I always won the battles. He wrote, Committing crimes

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Speaker 4: became my favorite pastime.

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Speaker 2: I was crime and it was me.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I was crime and it was me. His identity

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Speaker 1: in this book is completely wrapped up in being a gangster.

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Speaker 1: And remember this is about his teenage.

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Speaker 4: Later, Derek tried to distance himself from the book told

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Speaker 4: us another inmate ghost wrote it and exaggerated for effect.

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Speaker 3: It was a scripted book designed to keep young kids

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Speaker 3: from going to prison. But it's not going to always

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Speaker 3: give you the true story because he's characterizing things with

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Speaker 3: the perception of scaring a kid.

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Speaker 4: And yet in the chapter's final passage, Derek says, I

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Speaker 4: pray that God. God's any of you young ones reading

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Speaker 4: this to take my words for what they are truths.

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Speaker 4: There's another crime Derek mentions in this book. This one

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Speaker 4: stands out. He was seventeen at the time, and according

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Speaker 4: to the book, he robbed a bread truck at gunpoint.

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Speaker 2: Derek was fighting with the driver for the money.

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Speaker 4: In the book, he says he ordered to accomplices to

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Speaker 4: shoot the man. But when we asked him about the

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Speaker 4: bread truck driver, Derek told us something very different.

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Speaker 3: I was not dead at all.

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Speaker 2: That's in a minute.

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Speaker 4: Here's the story, and it comes from a March nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighty three edition of the New York Daily News. A

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Speaker 4: bread delivery man mortally wounded in an apparent robbery attempt

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Speaker 4: in Brooklyn yesterday managed to drive his truck two blocks

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Speaker 4: a gaspout and account of the attack to the police

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Speaker 4: before he died. The robbery took place near Lafayette Gardens

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Speaker 4: and Derek was seventeen at the time, so he pleads

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Speaker 4: not guilty, and at that point he's assigned an attorney.

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Speaker 2: Her name Candice Kurtz.

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Speaker 7: Don't forget our system is you're innocent until proven guilty.

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Speaker 1: At his murder trial, a key witness against Derek is

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Speaker 1: a childhood friend, Patricia. The trial is on a break

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Speaker 1: when Candice goes to the bathroom, someone comes in behind her.

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Speaker 1: It's Patricia talking about Bush, Derek Hamilton's nickname.

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Speaker 8: I was in the lady bathroom.

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Speaker 7: She was crying, she was upset, she was scared.

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Speaker 8: I was telling the lady that the cops tried to

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Speaker 8: make me say that Bush did it.

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Speaker 2: She told Candace the story.

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Speaker 8: It was we in the morning. I don't know what time,

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Speaker 8: but it was trying to turn light on me. The

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Speaker 8: cops stopped me, a whole lot of cops three edom

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Speaker 8: was asking me different questions and I'm looking like like

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Speaker 8: I don't know which one to answer, telling me I

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Speaker 8: know that I seen him, and da da da da

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Speaker 8: da da. I'm like, I didn't see Bush. That was

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Speaker 8: the whole problem. That's what they wanted me to say,

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Speaker 8: that I seen busch. I didn't see bus.

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Speaker 1: The cops took her to the precinct.

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Speaker 8: They just kept he yeah, just nine oh hours that

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Speaker 8: I will never, never forget. I wanted to go home,

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Speaker 8: so I told them what exactly they said. I wrote

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Speaker 8: down every word they say. I sing bus outside, it's

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Speaker 8: a boy the bread truck.

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Speaker 7: I walked back in the courtroom and I asked a

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Speaker 7: judge if I could talk to him in the DA

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Speaker 7: in private. So he went to the judges chambers and

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Speaker 7: I told him that we had a problem, that it

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Speaker 7: looked like there was police intimidation and the witness didn't

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Speaker 7: want to testify. Judge Lombardo gets up from behind his

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Speaker 7: desk and comes around and he puts his arms around me,

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Speaker 7: I mean, and a tight hug, and he speaks into

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Speaker 7: my ear and he says, and he called me Candy.

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Speaker 7: So he said, Candy, just take it easy, just calm down.

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Speaker 7: We both know who this guy is, we both know

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Speaker 7: he's guilty, so can't you just calm down and let

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Speaker 7: us go? And I was like, you know, I was

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Speaker 7: so anxious, and so my heart was pounding, and finally

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Speaker 7: I just said no, I can't. I just can't. I

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Speaker 7: can't sell my client down the river.

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Speaker 1: Candice isn't going to back down, and so now the

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Speaker 1: judge has to go back to the courtroom and find

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Speaker 1: out if Derek forced Patricia to recan't. The prosecution cannot

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Speaker 1: provide any evidence of this, so the judge waivers.

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Speaker 3: He's thinking about throwing the case out. But then we

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Speaker 3: come back to court the very next and the judge

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Speaker 3: says that he thought about this all night, that it

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Speaker 3: troubled him, that it deeply bothered him, and that he

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Speaker 3: changing his.

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Speaker 7: Ruling, and the judge basically just said, I don't care.

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Speaker 4: The judge basically decides that the only possible explanation for

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Speaker 4: Patricia's recantation is that Derek threatened her. There's no evidence

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Speaker 4: of this, but the judge concludes the cops would never

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Speaker 4: do that, and so the jury never hears anything about

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Speaker 4: Patricia's recantation. Candice turns to Derek. He's sitting next to

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Speaker 4: her at the defense table. He's seventeen at the time.

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Speaker 4: She gives him a piece of advice.

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Speaker 3: Says to me, kid, get your head out your ass.

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Speaker 3: I want you to understand what's going on here. I

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Speaker 3: want you to know what they're doing in your life.

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Speaker 3: And I said, damn, they are railroad in me. And

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Speaker 3: at that moment I was awoken.

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Speaker 2: The jury convicted Derek.

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Speaker 4: At his sentencing, this judge likened Derek to quote a

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Speaker 4: piece of garbage and sent him away for twenty five

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Speaker 4: years to life.

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Speaker 1: Candice had some more advice for Derek. Take matters into

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Speaker 1: your own hands.

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Speaker 3: She empowered me to be able to know that by

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Speaker 3: studying the law and understanding what's going on, it puts

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Speaker 3: you in a position to be able to fight back.

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Speaker 4: A few years into his sentence, Derek wrote his own appeal.

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Speaker 4: He'd immersed himself in the law by this point, and

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Speaker 4: it worked. Four years after his conviction, an appeals court

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Speaker 4: ruled that the judge acted on speculation and conjecture and

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Speaker 4: violated Derek Hamilton and his constitutional rights.

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Speaker 7: His conviction was overturned on appeal, and he came out

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Speaker 7: of prison.

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Speaker 1: Derek took a plea, got parole, and suddenly was out

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Speaker 1: in the world, but not for long. Louis Scarcella was

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Speaker 1: about to enter Derek Hamilton's life. I went up, I

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Speaker 1: got very close to him.

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Speaker 2: I said, you're going back.

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Speaker 3: LG.

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Speaker 2: That's in a moment.

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Speaker 3: I was in the process of opening a unisection on

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Speaker 3: New Haven and police officers stormed the interest of the door.

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Speaker 1: Derek is out of prison, but he hasn't quite left

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Speaker 1: behind his old ways. About a month into his parole,

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00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 1: he shot a drug dealer in Connecticut. But on the

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Speaker 1: day Scarcella burst through the door there about another shooting and.

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Speaker 3: I came in and threw me on a wall. And

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Speaker 3: while I was on the wall, Scarsella came up, just

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00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 3: me on a cheek and said, LG, motherfucker.

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Speaker 6: I didn't kiss him.

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Speaker 1: I went up. I got very close to him.

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Speaker 4: I said, you're going back to LG.

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00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,399
Speaker 3: Told me I was being arrested for the death of

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Speaker 3: the Danil Cash.

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Speaker 4: Not far from LG. That's the Lafiat Gardens housing project.

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Speaker 4: A man has been shot to death. Louis Scarcella had investigated,

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Speaker 4: and he was now armed with an arrest warrant.

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Speaker 3: When we get to the precinct and he got five

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Speaker 3: winn and says, you know, he got a big story.

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Speaker 3: And I'm listening to this guy and I'm just saying

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Speaker 3: it's impossible. I was in the waving you couldn't have

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Speaker 3: one winness that.

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Speaker 4: Only five, Just as in the previous case, Derek maintains

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00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 4: he wasn't even there.

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Speaker 1: For Detective Scarcella, this was an easy case, and Louis

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00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 1: was thankful for that. The year of the Nathaniel Cash murder,

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00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,719
Speaker 1: the new You're post the parts of Brooklyn a killing ground.

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00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 1: A murder was reported every sixty three hours. Detective Scarseller

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Speaker 1: was thrilled that this investigation wrapped up so quickly. It

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00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 1: wasn't that who done it. There was a witness who

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Speaker 1: identified as the shooter.

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00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 4: Louis, he has someone who's willing to testify that Derek

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Speaker 4: did it. The witness's name is Jewel Smith.

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Speaker 1: So this wasn't even a big case for you. No, well,

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Speaker 1: it was a murder, you know what I'm saying. But

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Speaker 1: it was done like that. Yeah, there was no wa

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Speaker 1: Jewel comes in. She's yes, her eyewitness testimony had done.

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Speaker 2: Louis arrived at the scene of the crime.

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Speaker 4: There's a dead guy, Ned Cash in his pajamas, a

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Speaker 4: robe and slippers. He's face down in a pool of

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Speaker 4: his own blood on the sidewalk near the curb, which

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Speaker 4: is fifteen or so feet from the apartment building where

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Speaker 4: he's staying the location of the body will later prove

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00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 4: a crucial detail. Scarcela testified that he found a shellcasing

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Speaker 4: on the body.

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Speaker 1: Jules Smith, the eyewitness, had spent the night at Nate

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Speaker 1: Cash's apartment. She's his girlfriend of two weeks. Derek knew

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00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: Nate Cash two he was dating the mother of Nate

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Speaker 1: Cash's child. Small World. A few hours later, Jules in

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Speaker 1: front of an assistant district attorney giving her account of

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Speaker 1: the murder. We got hold of her recorded statement.

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Speaker 7: My name's Thomas Musield, playing a newsild.

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Speaker 2: Speak to miss Jules Smith.

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Speaker 1: Today's date January fourth, nineteen ninety one.

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Speaker 7: Miss Smith, you mentioned an detective.

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Speaker 5: Earlier that you were with net in the night before.

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Speaker 7: Just pick up from there and telling what you remember

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Speaker 7: about last night and.

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Speaker 9: Today when you were with my last light right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the original audio from nineteen ninety one, and

355
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 4: as you can tell, it's scratching hard to understand Jewel's testimony,

356
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 4: so we hired an actor to read Juwel Smith's words.

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Speaker 4: She's talking about the victim, her boyfriend Nick Cash.

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Speaker 9: So while he was calling me a cab, I was

359
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 9: putting on my sneakers and then you know the cab

360
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 9: came because they said five minutes, so then they came.

361
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 9: So by that time, he put on his road to

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Speaker 9: walk me downstairs to the cab like he always did.

363
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Speaker 9: And when we went downstairs, I was walking in front

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Speaker 9: and he was on the side of me. And that's

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00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 9: when I observed Bush also known as Derek Hamilton, stepped

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00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 9: around the banister and he comes step and asked me

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00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 9: where Nate at? And Nate was like right here, I mean,

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00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 9: he just start firing and shooting, shooting, shooting.

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Speaker 4: From Derek's point of view, Jewel is another Patricia, another

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00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 4: witness who, after talking to the cops, somehow says he

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Speaker 4: committed a murder.

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Speaker 2: He swears he didn't do.

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00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: Like why would this person come in today and lie.

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Speaker 1: Derek had known Jewel for years. They lived a few

375
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: floors apart in LG and they'd been in contact since

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00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: his arrest for the Nate Cash murder. From jail, Derek

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00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: even writes her love letters. She responds. She assures him

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00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: of her devotion, her loyalty. Once she wrote, I've never

379
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: had anyone make love to my mind. Sure reads like romance.

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Speaker 2: This manipulation, this manipulation. I want to know what's going on.

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00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: Then the day the trial in July nineteen ninety one,

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00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: Derek is seated at the defendant's table when Jewel walks

383
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: to the witness stand.

384
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 3: So when I see her coming in looking dishevel, not

385
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 3: looking like herself, looking totally dishovel, I know something was wrong.

386
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: I sain't right.

387
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: And she repeats the statement that she made to the

388
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Speaker 1: DA the one where she saw Derek shoot and shoot

389
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: and shoot and kill Nate Cash. What's more, she testifies

390
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: that she was afraid of Derek Hamilton those love letters.

391
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: The only reason she reciprocated was to not anger him.

392
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: What is going on here? I mean, could this really

393
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: be a case of the system finding two witnesses on

394
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: two different occasions who are willing to provide testimony against

395
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: an innocent Derek Hamilton, this time, of course involving Detective

396
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 2: Luis Carcela.

397
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Speaker 3: Amazingly over my case, he was the detective from the

398
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: Book of North Homicide. He makes her into a witness,

399
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 3: He makes Jules Smith into a witness.

400
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: Wow, I'd love to hear Jules point of view on

401
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: all this.

402
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 4: That's for another episode for Right now, Derek's at the

403
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: defense table and he still thinks he has a chance.

404
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: I was still confident that I would walk out of

405
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: the court loowner.

406
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 3: He could be established that she's alive, as she made

407
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: separate in consistant statements.

408
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: Then Detective Louis Scarcella takes the stand.

409
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: A first grade detective coming in, or a guy with charisma,

410
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 3: a guy looks like at that time, a you know,

411
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: he looked at like a real Italian stallion at that time,

412
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 3: you know, shot mustache, he looked a good and he

413
00:25:54,160 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: was appillable to jurors. And he took the and said

414
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 3: that Juice Smith called him one day and said she

415
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: was afraid to rid the grand jury, that her grandmother

416
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: know me, and that I was a killer that killed

417
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: people my entire life.

418
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Speaker 1: Moster jury heard that my fate was seeming.

419
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 3: There was no way that I was walking out of

420
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Speaker 3: that courtroom.

421
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: Was he good?

422
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 3: Very good, very good, very very good, very good, compelling,

423
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: And you gotta look at what they didn't believe in

424
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: ju Smith. They believe un now because you have a

425
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: first grade detective corroborating.

426
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: It, first grade Detective Louis Garcella. He is confident in

427
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: his version. I believe he's guilty of killing the Daniel Cash.

428
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: I believe the district attorney believes he's guilty. I believe

429
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: the city believes he's guilty.

430
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 4: And on that point Louis there was also the judge

431
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 4: and the jury. They all agreed that Derek was guilty.

432
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 4: Derek Hamilton was sentenced to prison from murder again and again,

433
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: given twenty five years to life's right.

434
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 3: And the prosecutor they're so flaring, they're they're so theatrical

435
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 3: that people get.

436
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: Lost in the hype.

437
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: You ever hear the storm of public goaa.

438
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: We don't believe the height, but the hepens.

439
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: What gives us convicted.

440
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 3: It's not the etherde it's the height that these people

441
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 3: are bad and he need to be removed from society.

442
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: This is what sent us to jail, not the facts

443
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: of the case.

444
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 4: Which brings us back to two thousand and nine. Derek's

445
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 4: been in prison eighteen years for the murder of Nate

446
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 4: Cash and he's up for parole. To get parole, he's

447
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: being told he needs to admit to a murder. He

448
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 4: says he didn't commit and that he vows he will

449
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 4: not do. He's still in solitary until the warden says

450
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 4: he can leave, which won't be any time soon. In solitary,

451
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 4: it's beginning to wear him down.

452
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: When you're stuck in a cell with all you hear

453
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: is noise, it makes banging and screaming and yelling and

454
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: throwing feces and urine and flooding the gallery. It's chaos

455
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 3: every single hour because you got a bunch of mentally

456
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: ill people locked themselves and just can't cope.

457
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: Every day, every day, every day, it takes its toll

458
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: on you.

459
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: So I'm starting to go to the parole board depressed

460
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: and being told that there is no hope for you ever,

461
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: and the only advice is to chet responsibility for your crime.

462
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: I was just tie it. You know, you fight so

463
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: hard and so you get to the points.

464
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 3: You know, I'm tired of shit, you know what I mean.

465
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: I'm tired of it. You know I gave up for

466
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: a moment.

467
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: After two decades behind bars, Derek hand writes a memo

468
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: to this prison superintendent two, Superintendent Smith from Derek Hamilton,

469
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: subject suicide. Note It reads, death will be a welcome

470
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: companion compared to the torture you have subjected me to.

471
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: I hope you are one day tortured like you have

472
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: tortured me. That same day, Derek is in his cell

473
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: when a corrections counselor passes by, He too, will write

474
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: a memo.

475
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 4: At approximately eighth one a m. It begins inimate was

476
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 4: extremely emotional and upset, stating I went out of here.

477
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 4: He turned his lights off and went under his mattress

478
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 4: and pulled out a white plastic bag. I then observed

479
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 4: him placing his hand to his mouth, followed by bottled water.

480
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 4: Subjects sat down. He appeared disoriented. I observed his legs

481
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 4: shaking as I called his name, but got no response.

482
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 1: Derek is rushed to a local hospital. He wakes up

483
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: shackle to a gurney. Three guards are standing by him,

484
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: and I.

485
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 3: Was told him they got to kill me today, like

486
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 3: today is the day that I die because I refuse

487
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: to go back to that's uh and be treated like that.

488
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 4: It's because of the suicide attempt that Derek is eventually

489
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 4: transferred to Auburn Correctional It's there he will connect with

490
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: Nelson and Shabaka to help found the actual innocence team,

491
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 4: and it's there that he'll finally go before the parole board.

492
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: I pour over the transcripts of parole hearings. Each time,

493
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: Derek consists he'd only proceed if the parole board hears

494
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: evidence of his actual innocence. Each time, the board refuses

495
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: and the hearing is adjourned, until finally Derek decides to

496
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: play ball. He submits letters of recommendation evidence that he

497
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: won't be a menace to society. He finally goes to

498
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: a full hearing. What happened there was so surprising that

499
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: I remember exactly where I was when I read about it.

500
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: I'm with my family in the living room. They're watching

501
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: Rick and Morty. I'm not paying attention. I'm reading the transcript.

502
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: The board goes through his crimes one by one. It

503
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: takes a while. The board gets to the bread truck murder,

504
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: the one he was found guilty of when he was eighteen.

505
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: Another murder Derek insists he did not commit, and reading

506
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: about that, I came across something I couldn't believe. I

507
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: thought it was a typo. Derek was talking about the

508
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: bread truck driver, the murder victim. Here's what I read.

509
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: He was a hard working man and it was a shame,

510
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: you know that he was robbed, And I took a life,

511
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: and I apologized for that. I can never take that back.

512
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: That was a stupid thing I did as a kid,

513
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: and I'm ashamed of it. DA's when I read this,

514
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: I figured I had to talk to you.

515
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I remember like not necessarily knowing what to

516
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 4: do with it right away. You know, I was invested

517
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 4: at that point in a completely different narrative the one

518
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 4: he had been telling us for so long, which was

519
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 4: that he wasn't even there. And so all I remember

520
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: being left with was the question of had he lied

521
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 4: to us?

522
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he lied to somebody. I don't know.

523
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: I was confused. I found myself thinking about Candace Kurts,

524
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, his lawyer in the first murder. She had

525
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: stood by his side, she had put her credibility on

526
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: the line. Frankly, I felt betrayed. I wondered if she would.

527
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 7: Too, Okay, mess game starting.

528
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: I found Candace Kurtz retired on the Upper West Side

529
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: of Manhattan. She'd been a legal aid attorney for three decades,

530
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: lived in the same rent stabilized apartment all that time.

531
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: She's considerate. She locks up her cat me owing is

532
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: not good for recording. I have the transcript of that

533
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: parole hearing. Wow, Yeah, he admits to the first murder,

534
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: to the bread truck murder.

535
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: What do you think of that?

536
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 7: It doesn't surprise me that he did it. I don't

537
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 7: know why he'd admit to it, but I guess he's

538
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 7: supposed to admit, to take responsibility for things so that

539
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 7: he can get out.

540
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 4: So it doesn't surprise you he did it.

541
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 7: No, and it wouldn't surprise me he didn't do it.

542
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 7: We know now that he was not guilty, but that's

543
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 7: not innocent, right. Not guilty means a lack of proof.

544
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 7: I can't prove to you that he's innocent, but I

545
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 7: can show you that he's not guilty. Well, so he

546
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 7: did it. How does that make you feel? It makes

547
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 7: me feel shitty.

548
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 1: I want to believe that he was franked.

549
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 7: Why do you want to believe that? I mean, what

550
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 7: the police did in his case were atrocious and supposedly

551
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 7: we have a society that you can't do that and

552
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 7: you can't get away from that. And I think the

553
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 7: Defendants Guild is kind of irrelevant in the whole picture

554
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 7: of what our system is supposed to be. Like, you know,

555
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 7: some guilty people will go free if our system is

556
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 7: working properly.

557
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: So who is Derek? Is he a murderer? Is he

558
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: a murderer? Even when he protests that he's not, he

559
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: told the parole board he was. He told us he wasn't.

560
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: We had to ask Derek about this, so we brought

561
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: him back to the studio.

562
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: With switching gears. Switching gears, switching gears, switching gears.

563
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 4: What you hold to be true, and what you claim

564
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 4: to this day as you sit here across from is

565
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 4: that you were not there, You were not involved. You know.

566
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: What I claim to be true was that I had

567
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 3: nothing to do with James wolf death.

568
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 4: Okay, right, But as a condition for you getting out,

569
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 4: one of the conditions was that you had to admit

570
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: to not true. Not true? Okay, so talk to it.

571
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: So I guess we want to just we do a

572
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: little bit of the read, right, Is it okay?

573
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: If I read?

574
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 8: All?

575
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: Right?

576
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 4: So I start reading the transcript from the parole Here,

577
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 4: I'm reading Derek his own words.

578
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: Back to him.

579
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 4: You know, I was young, ignorant individual at that time.

580
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 4: I was living in an anti social community and I

581
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 4: just did a lot of wrong things. You know, question,

582
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 4: who was the victim in that case answer, mister James Wolf,

583
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 4: I'll never forget that name. He was a hard working

584
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 4: man and it was a shame. You know that he

585
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 4: was robbed and I took a life, and I apologize

586
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 4: for that. I can never take that back. That was

587
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 4: a stupid thing I did as a kid, and I'm

588
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 4: ashamed of it. So help us make sense of that.

589
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 3: What is that you're reading from?

590
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 2: First of all, this.

591
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 4: Is from the parole hearing from twenty eleven, So this

592
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 4: is the October eighteenth to twenty eleven parole here.

593
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: Okay, so let me tell you this. Right, One of

594
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 3: the things you got to remember that when you go

595
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: to parole, they want you to be remonseful. I was

596
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 3: told that that in order to get out, you gotta

597
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 3: go in and parole officill tall you this all the time.

598
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: So I was remonseful. Right, I was remonsful.

599
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 3: But I know I didn't commit that crime, and I

600
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 3: probably did say that to get out of prison.

601
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 9: Right.

602
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: I don't recall saying it, but I'm willing to bet

603
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: that if the parole officer told me I had to

604
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 3: share remors to get out, I'm gonna say whatever. I

605
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 3: gotta get it out. Because I was a young kid, right,

606
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: I was a young kid.

607
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: Meaning you were not in twenty eleven. You weren't a

608
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: young kid in that.

609
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: I wasn't twenty eleven.

610
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: This is twenty eleven.

611
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 3: That's not two thousand eleven.

612
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 2: It's twenty eleven. Well, you know what, you may be

613
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 2: right thousand.

614
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: You may be right, and I may have said that

615
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: in twenty eleven to not fight them about something that

616
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: I already had.

617
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: Right, they're only asking for his name, James Wolf, and

618
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: you're going to say, I'll never forget the name. He

619
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: was a hard working man. Was a shame, you know

620
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 1: that he was robbed. And I cried, be clear about that.

621
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: And I cried.

622
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: But I didn't just say that.

623
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: I cried.

624
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 3: I gave them tears with it. I'm being real with you.

625
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 3: It was theatrical, right. I wanted to get home if

626
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 3: I can't convince these RinkyDink parole.

627
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: But people, let me go out.

628
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 3: Your stay in prison, right, Parole is a show to

629
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 3: get out. Understand what I'm telling you, right, it is

630
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 3: a show to get out.

631
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 4: We're not trying to ambush you know, that's not what

632
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 4: we're doing here. I am going to register that I

633
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: am feeling a different energy that you have related to this, right,

634
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 4: I'm gaving them to some different energy.

635
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: What's that about for you? Like, well, I just told you.

636
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 3: Whatever energy you gather, that's your perception.

637
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: Okay, But look, man, be in my.

638
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: Position, right, serve twenty one years in prison and trying

639
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: to get out, right, I would tell a parole board

640
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 3: anything to get out with a lot of them, Absolutely,

641
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 3: I would a lot of them in a heartbeat, us

642
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 3: a warmth proceeding. See, I can admit to doing some

643
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 3: things to make it look good, right, you gotta look,

644
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: I'm calculated when it comes to certain things.

645
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 2: Dave.

646
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: I get it. Listen, I get it. It's worth doing

647
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: just about anything to get out of prison. Of course

648
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: it is. And to be clear, Derek is admitting to

649
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: the bread truck murder. He does not admit to the

650
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: Pearl Board that he killed Nate Cash. But still we've

651
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: put a lot of stock in Derek's credibility, in his word,

652
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: in his statement that he is innocent of the Nate

653
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: Cash murder. And now he's saying lying is a tool,

654
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: a legit tool that he'll use whenever necessary, which is

655
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: pretty much Scarcella's view of him. Somebody's going to say, well,

656
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: Derek Hamilton will lie when it's in his interest.

657
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely listen to me. I think a person that wouldn't

658
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: lie when the dangest is a fool. That's my personal opinion.

659
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: The lie worked if it was a lie. After twenty

660
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: one years in prison, the parole board voted to let

661
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: Derek Hamilton back into society.

662
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: He called his wife and I said, Yo, I'm coming home.

663
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: But DA's We still had some questions, like Derek had

664
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Speaker 1: made us wonder, at least me wonder if he lied

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Speaker 1: about one murder, could he lie about another?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: I mean so did he really do it kill Nate Cash?

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00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: Should he have been found guilty.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that. We're going to get to the

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Speaker 1: bottom of whether Derek is guilty of killing Nate Cash.

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Speaker 1: But first Derek has some unfinished business.

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Speaker 2: Next time on the Burden, Derek's leaving prison.

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Speaker 4: He's also leaving behind Schabacco, his partner in the jailhouse

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Speaker 4: law firm.

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00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 3: What then guys going home and they forget, you know,

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Speaker 3: they forget the guys they leave behind.

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00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: And I said, do not forget me, and he was like, I.

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Speaker 9: Got you.

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00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 5: Stone cloud of comment commonstrate too.

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Speaker 1: You can't run for shelter.

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00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: There's nothing you can do. The Burden is created by

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00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: Steve Fishman.

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00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 4: It's hosted and reported by Steve Fishman and myself, Dax

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00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 4: Devlyn Ross. Our story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our senior

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00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 4: producer is Simon Rittner. Our producer is Snam Skelly. Our

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00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 4: associate producer is Austin Smith. Our fact checker is Sona Avakian.

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00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 4: Our production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design

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00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 4: is provided by Mumbo. Mediative produces are Fisher, Stevens, Steve

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00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 4: Fishman and Evan Williams. Additional production help has been provided

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00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 4: by Josie Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Brauner, Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis,

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00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 4: Micah Hazel, Priscilla A labby Saxon Baird, Katie Simon and

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00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 4: Katie Springer. We want to give us special thanks to

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00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 4: Ellen Horn, Zach Stewart, Pontier, Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe to

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00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 4: buy a Black, Rachel Morrissey, Mark Smirling and Lila Robinson.

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00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 4: Special thanks to Marcy Wiseman. We want to thank our

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00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 4: agents Ben Davis and Marissa Horowitz. Legal support has been

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00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 4: provided by Mona Hook at MKSR ll P, and a

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00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 4: very special thanks to Evan Williams, one of our executive

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00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 4: producers and the person who made this podcast possible. We

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Speaker 4: are honored to feature the song The Lacklightning from the

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00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 4: Bell Rays is our theme music. The Burden is a

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Speaker 4: production of Orbit Media and association with Signal Company Number one.

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Speaker 1: Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be

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Speaker 1: available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All

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00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: episodes will be available early and ad free, along with

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00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse,

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00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: a subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety

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Speaker 1: nine a month.