WEBVTT - S4: EP 5 —  Fantasy Land

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, guys.

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<v Speaker 1>I tell her what he has told me thus far,

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<v Speaker 1>and she says there's a lot more. He's actually said

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<v Speaker 1>that he's done so much that if you find out everything,

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<v Speaker 1>there's no way you guys will be able to stay together.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, episode five.

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<v Speaker 2>Fantasy Land. Lieutenant Joel Kern spent years building a successful

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<v Speaker 2>career with the Colorado Springs Police Department, but in early

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty two, it all unraveled after a woman came

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<v Speaker 2>forward claiming she had sex with him in his patrol car.

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<v Speaker 2>But started as one allegation quickly ignited a chain reaction,

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<v Speaker 2>exposing the secret life Kern kept hidden for years. In

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<v Speaker 2>the last episode of Betrayal, we share recordings of the

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<v Speaker 2>cspd's internal affairs investigation into Joel Kern's police misconduct. After

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<v Speaker 2>signing an agreement to tell the truth in his interview,

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<v Speaker 2>Joel continued to lie until investigators presented him with irrefutable evidence.

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<v Speaker 2>Several weeks later, Joel's commander recommended him for termination.

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<v Speaker 3>Quite frankly, the legislative intent is very clear that we

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<v Speaker 3>cannot allow peace officers remain employed when they've lied during

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<v Speaker 3>an ia investigation. I have no option but to recommend

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<v Speaker 3>your termination.

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<v Speaker 2>Termination would risk Joel's entire career. It would be more

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<v Speaker 2>difficult for him to get a job as a police officer. Ever, again,

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<v Speaker 2>listening to the interviews in the last episode, it all

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<v Speaker 2>sounded straightforward, open and shut. But that's not how it

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<v Speaker 2>all shook out. Joel wasn't fired, and we'll explore what

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<v Speaker 2>actually happened and why over the next few episodes. Following

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<v Speaker 2>that meeting, Joel seemed to think that there was still

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<v Speaker 2>a chance he could save his career. He had one

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<v Speaker 2>more card to play.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's Caroline, he said, there's a possibility. I could save

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<v Speaker 1>my job and go to an impatient treatment program that's

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<v Speaker 1>specific for first responders and Laguna Beach.

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<v Speaker 2>Unbeknownst to Caroline, Joel had already started making arrangements. While

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<v Speaker 2>his internal affairs investigation was underway. He went to a psychiatrist.

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<v Speaker 2>He told her he needed help.

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<v Speaker 1>The psychiatrist said he was under such duress that he

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<v Speaker 1>really needed to go to endpatient treatment almost immediately, and

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<v Speaker 1>according to his self report to me and the kids,

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<v Speaker 1>he was diagnosed with PTSD and that was his cause

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<v Speaker 1>and reason for being sent to endpatient rehab.

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<v Speaker 2>Laguna Beach is in southern California, about ninety minutes south

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<v Speaker 2>of Los Angeles. When you first see the homepage of

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<v Speaker 2>the rehabilitation facility, you're greeted by stunning blue green water

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<v Speaker 2>stretching against golden sand. It looks luxurious, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>it's not cheap. But Joel and Caroline wouldn't pay a dime.

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<v Speaker 1>He said. The department's going to approve it. They have

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<v Speaker 1>a connection with them. They'll make arrangements for me to

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<v Speaker 1>go there. It will be paid for, and so I said,

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<v Speaker 1>but your Penning termination.

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<v Speaker 2>His termination wasn't official just yet he was in limbo

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<v Speaker 2>awaiting the meeting where the disciplinary ruling would be finalized,

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<v Speaker 2>so there was still time for one last shot. If

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<v Speaker 2>he took medical and sickly, he could delay the disciplinary process.

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<v Speaker 2>If he could show the department he could change, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>he could still keep his job.

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<v Speaker 1>Joel thought if he admitted he had a problem and

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<v Speaker 1>he really committed to treatment, he could turn things around.

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<v Speaker 1>He absolutely needed to go to rehab to address not

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<v Speaker 1>only his sex addiction, but because he wanted to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that he was doing everything he could to show

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<v Speaker 1>the department that he was trying to be a healthy

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<v Speaker 1>person to continue his employment.

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<v Speaker 2>He also told Caroline that it was a symptom of

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<v Speaker 2>a larger issue.

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<v Speaker 4>He began to say that he struggled over the past

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<v Speaker 4>handful of years with just feeling as though he had

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<v Speaker 4>a sex addiction.

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<v Speaker 2>Joel was in repair mode to save his job and

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<v Speaker 2>his marriage. He told Caroline he'd fully commit to the

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<v Speaker 2>treatment program, that he'd address his mistakes head on. As

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<v Speaker 2>furious as Caroline was, it looked like Joel was finally

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<v Speaker 2>taking accountability. Maybe being recommended for termination was the wake

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<v Speaker 2>up call he needed. During this time, Joel's wore he

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<v Speaker 2>was committed to change. He kept repeating the same mantra, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Want to get better. I need to go do this,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get better. I softened a little bit,

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<v Speaker 1>and when I began to soften, I started having these

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<v Speaker 1>feelings of will he get better? Could he get better?

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<v Speaker 1>What does this look like?

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<v Speaker 2>Here's Caroline's daughter, Nicole.

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<v Speaker 5>There was this period where my mom was thinking, like,

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<v Speaker 5>maybe he'll get better, and then they could possibly start

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<v Speaker 5>from Scarrach and start dating again.

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<v Speaker 2>There were moments when that possibility felt within reach. Caroline

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<v Speaker 2>never wanted to lose her family, and Joel was saying

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<v Speaker 2>all the right things, but Nicole was having her own

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<v Speaker 2>reckoning about her relationship with her father. Once she understood

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<v Speaker 2>the depth of her father's betrayal, she reflected on who

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<v Speaker 2>he had been during her childhood. She started calling him

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<v Speaker 2>one on one, sometimes demanding answers, other times simply voicing

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<v Speaker 2>her anger.

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<v Speaker 5>During one of our phone calls, I said something alluding

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<v Speaker 5>to the fact that he never really paid attention to

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<v Speaker 5>any of us. He never really did things to show

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<v Speaker 5>appreciation for us.

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<v Speaker 2>He'd always been less present, put in less effort than Caroline.

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<v Speaker 2>The family had always talked it up to his demanding job. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>his daughter was left wondering maybe that's just who he is,

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe her dad just didn't care.

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<v Speaker 5>But one of the last few times that I saw

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<v Speaker 5>him before he went to rehab, he came to the

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<v Speaker 5>house with my mom's coffee order. The way he was

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<v Speaker 5>at that time, he seemed remorseful.

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<v Speaker 2>And that remorse gave Caroline the tiniest bit of hope.

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<v Speaker 2>As Joel prepared to go to rehab, she offered him

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<v Speaker 2>some grace.

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<v Speaker 1>After a lot of conversation, he and I agreed that

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<v Speaker 1>he could stay at our home in the guest bedroom

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<v Speaker 1>before he left for rehab.

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<v Speaker 2>Joel said he would come back from rehab a better man,

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<v Speaker 2>that he was getting help so he could salvage the family.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a big piece of Caroline and Nicole that

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to believe it. But the night before he left

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<v Speaker 2>for California, Nicole started to question was her dad actually

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<v Speaker 2>planning to come back.

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<v Speaker 5>He led me downstairs, showed me how to resep go

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<v Speaker 5>Wi Fi. He showed me like where our air filters are,

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<v Speaker 5>and then how to turn on and off the sprinkler

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<v Speaker 5>system for our house. It was just a bunch of

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<v Speaker 5>little things, and I remember thinking like, well, I guess

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<v Speaker 5>this is it. He's never going to come back to

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<v Speaker 5>the house because he was showing his seventeen year old

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<v Speaker 5>daughter had to change out the air filter.

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<v Speaker 2>There were a lot of conflicting feelings. Whenever Caroline was

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<v Speaker 2>kind to Joel, Nicole felt protective. One of his last

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<v Speaker 2>nights in the house, Caroline made Joel dinner.

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<v Speaker 5>Even after all what he did. Our mom made him tacos,

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<v Speaker 5>and I remember feeling so angry because I was like,

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<v Speaker 5>why are we even letting him stay in the first place.

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<v Speaker 5>If he doesn't want to show he wants to be

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<v Speaker 5>with us, just let him figure it out on his own.

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<v Speaker 5>I was just so frustrated at the situation at hand,

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<v Speaker 5>him going to rehab, him doing this to our family,

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<v Speaker 5>yet my mom is still trying to be a wife.

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<v Speaker 6>I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a hard habit to break. Caroline's default mode

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<v Speaker 2>was to care for her family, even Joel, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was trying, or at least they thought he was.

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<v Speaker 1>I will admit we at one point had talked about

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<v Speaker 1>if he could show that he was truly someone who

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<v Speaker 1>struggled with addiction and was trying to engage in healthy behaviors,

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<v Speaker 1>that at some point we could be friends, then attempt

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<v Speaker 1>to date and start all over again. We have a

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<v Speaker 1>dry erase board in our kitchen that we would leave

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<v Speaker 1>notes for the kids, or reminders or a grocery list,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, whatever that may look like. The night before

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<v Speaker 1>he left, he wrote a note to my daughter and

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<v Speaker 1>I that said I love you guys, I will and

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<v Speaker 1>underlined will get better. And I went to erase it,

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<v Speaker 1>and my daughter asked to keep it up for a while,

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<v Speaker 1>and then she made the decision of when it would

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<v Speaker 1>get erased.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the last message they would receive from Joel

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<v Speaker 2>for a while. He was required to give up his

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<v Speaker 2>phone during the first few weeks at rehab.

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<v Speaker 1>After two weeks at the facility, Joel was given his

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<v Speaker 1>phone back and he sends a text saying just how

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<v Speaker 1>incredible the facility is and he thinks it's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be beneficial to him that he wanted to be vulnerable

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<v Speaker 1>with me and the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>He described to Caroline how his behavior evolved, all of

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<v Speaker 2>it by text. We asked a voice actor to read

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<v Speaker 2>his messages.

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<v Speaker 7>I was playing an online game in two thousand and

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<v Speaker 7>five or six where people used an app called pal

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<v Speaker 7>Ringo to communicate about game strategy for several months. I

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<v Speaker 7>used it for that, and then out of curiosity, I

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<v Speaker 7>searched sexual terms and all these groups or chat rooms

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<v Speaker 7>popped up. People would post porn and homemade porn on them,

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<v Speaker 7>and that started my addiction that progressed into chatting with

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<v Speaker 7>females on there and sexting.

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<v Speaker 2>Joel said that led him to seek out other apps

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<v Speaker 2>like vet Life, the Cank and fetish Sight that he'd

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<v Speaker 2>been caught using at work.

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<v Speaker 7>I downloaded the app and found all kinds of porn

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<v Speaker 7>that included pictures and video. I found myself becoming more

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<v Speaker 7>immersed in it and growing resentful of you because I

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<v Speaker 7>could not please you like the men and the porn did.

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<v Speaker 2>Joel wasn't blaming her per se, but he was implying

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<v Speaker 2>that this was all about not being able to satisfy her.

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<v Speaker 7>I found myself starting to believe in the fantasy world,

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<v Speaker 7>and my self esteem crashed. There were no boundaries or

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<v Speaker 7>limitations in this fantasy world. I could say things to

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<v Speaker 7>women that were not imaginable in real life.

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<v Speaker 2>Joel went on to explain in graphic detail how this

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<v Speaker 2>fantasy escalated into real life actions.

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<v Speaker 7>I could get a blowjob and feel more manly. Once

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<v Speaker 7>I saw how easy it was, I got hooked on that.

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<v Speaker 7>I felt guilty and knew what I was doing was wrong,

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<v Speaker 7>but by then it didn't matter. Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety,

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<v Speaker 7>addiction all contributed to my behavior and actions, saying people

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<v Speaker 7>would not do what I did, but I literally was

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<v Speaker 7>not in my right mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Joel went on to say that this wasn't a justification

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<v Speaker 2>for his behavior, just an explanation. Then he tried to

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<v Speaker 2>assure her he had told her all of his secrets.

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<v Speaker 7>You have discovered everything, and I have told you about

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<v Speaker 7>all that is significant or I remember. I have tried

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<v Speaker 7>to explain it as best I can in this text.

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<v Speaker 7>Are there things I'm omitting absolutely, but not out of

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<v Speaker 7>intentional deception. I simply can't remember everything. I hope that

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<v Speaker 7>this in some way helps show that I'm being honest

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<v Speaker 7>and forthcoming about my actions.

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<v Speaker 2>Back in Colorado Springs, Nicole watched her mom grapple with

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<v Speaker 2>the tug of war between hurt and hope.

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<v Speaker 5>She was trying so hard to be with my dad

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<v Speaker 5>for the beginning of it, like trying to work through

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<v Speaker 5>it and trying to like maybe start fresh.

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<v Speaker 6>With him.

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<v Speaker 2>Still, Caroline felt that Joel was holding back. For example,

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<v Speaker 2>when she asked if he had affairs with any coworkers,

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<v Speaker 2>his response was, cage.

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<v Speaker 7>I want to engage in conversations to heal. I'd be

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<v Speaker 7>happy to address this, but I'm wary of piling on

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<v Speaker 7>for the divorce proceedings. If there is any hope of

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<v Speaker 7>working through this, then I want to address this.

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<v Speaker 2>Caroline suspected he was still carefully picking and choosing what

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<v Speaker 2>he'd fess up to. She wrestled with all of this

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<v Speaker 2>while trying to keep some normalcy for their daughter. Nicole

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<v Speaker 2>was a junior in high school, so while Joel was

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<v Speaker 2>in rehab, Caroline took her to tour a college campus

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of miles from home. That's where Caroline was when

0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.000
<v Speaker 2>she got a call from Joel's case manager at the

0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.040
<v Speaker 2>treatment center. Joel gave the facility permission to keep Caroline

0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.240
<v Speaker 2>updated about his care, but this was the first time

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.120
<v Speaker 2>she'd heard from a staff member.

0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.440
<v Speaker 1>And so she said, he said that it's important for

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.480
<v Speaker 1>you to know that he is doing all these things

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 1>and trying to get better, to not only keep his job,

0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.120
<v Speaker 1>but to try to change and be a different person,

0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.600
<v Speaker 1>and so I tell her what he has told me

0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:41.920
<v Speaker 1>thus far, and she says there's a lot more. He's

0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 1>actually said that he's done so much that if you

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 1>find out everything, there's no way you guys will be

0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:48.360
<v Speaker 1>able to stay together.

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.840
<v Speaker 2>Then the case manager got to the point, the real

0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:57.800
<v Speaker 2>reason she was calling Caroline.

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 1>She said he was one of the worst cases of

0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.080
<v Speaker 1>sex addiction she had ever seen.

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>Caroline received a call from the rehabilitation center where Joel

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.440
<v Speaker 2>was being treated. The case manager was direct with their

0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:31.440
<v Speaker 2>assessment of Joel.

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.240
<v Speaker 1>She said he was one of the worst cases of

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.840
<v Speaker 1>sex addiction she had ever seen. She's telling me all this,

0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.080
<v Speaker 1>and my head is just spinning. I'm on a campus,

0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 1>trying to keep some normalcy for our daughter and let

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.760
<v Speaker 1>her be able to get a glimpse of what her

0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 1>future could be on a college campus. I'm trying to

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.960
<v Speaker 1>hold it together emotionally for her. I'm trying to hold

0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:58.600
<v Speaker 1>it together emotionally for myself.

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 2>The case manager's words replayed in her head. Maybe this

0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:09.159
<v Speaker 2>story Joel was telling Caroline about reflections, breakthroughs, and progress

0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.160
<v Speaker 2>was just that a story.

0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 1>One night, to get a phone call and he says

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.040
<v Speaker 1>he has his ability to call people now, and he's

0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.439
<v Speaker 1>talking himself up and he's saying, you know what a

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.479
<v Speaker 1>leader he is at the facility that he doesn't think

0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.639
<v Speaker 1>he's even going to be there the full time because

0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.280
<v Speaker 1>he's just doing so great, and his therapist thinks he's amazing,

0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 1>and he is taking on different leadership roles in his groups.

0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:38.040
<v Speaker 1>And I couldn't take it anymore.

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.439
<v Speaker 2>So she told Joel about the phone call with the

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:46.120
<v Speaker 2>case manager. The case manager's version of Joel's progress did

0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:46.840
<v Speaker 2>not match his.

0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Joel became infuriated, and he said that she was a bitch,

0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.880
<v Speaker 1>and you know this is why now he could see

0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.520
<v Speaker 1>why she was standoffish to him.

0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:58.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, he just.

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.399
<v Speaker 1>Completely twisted it and earned it and then let me

0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.479
<v Speaker 1>know he didn't want her contacting me for anything ever again.

0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.040
<v Speaker 1>And so I said, sounds sounds appropriate at this point,

0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.439
<v Speaker 1>because you're not honest with me, and you're not honest

0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 1>with this treatment team.

0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.320
<v Speaker 2>If he wasn't going to tell her the full truth,

0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.480
<v Speaker 2>she would investigate herself.

0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.440
<v Speaker 1>And I can't tell you what prompted me to finally

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:28.439
<v Speaker 1>have this epiphany, but I did. I had this moment

0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 1>after all of this, to pull our phone records.

0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.320
<v Speaker 2>To understand the gravity of this next story. We have

0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.920
<v Speaker 2>to go back in time, about five years prior, when

0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Nicole was in middle school. When I first introduced you

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.760
<v Speaker 2>to the family, I told you that their son and

0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 2>daughter were accomplished athletes and hard working students. It's extraordinary

0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:54.600
<v Speaker 2>they've maintained that, especially considering the trauma they've experienced. For Nicole,

0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.080
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't the first time she had faced adversity.

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 5>School, and the beginning years of high school definitely weren't

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:03.960
<v Speaker 5>the best for me.

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.359
<v Speaker 2>For several years, Nicole was bullied. She felt like one

0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.640
<v Speaker 2>girl had turned the entire school against her.

0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:16.160
<v Speaker 5>There was a ring later. It was the typical sort

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.400
<v Speaker 5>of movie scene where she seemed really popular and had

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.040
<v Speaker 5>a bunch of friends, and everyone was like crowding around her,

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 5>and her lunch table was big where mine was nuts.

0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.480
<v Speaker 5>It was hard forming some connections, and so a lot

0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.399
<v Speaker 5>of times family dinner would be the first time, like

0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:46.040
<v Speaker 5>I ever talked to anyone that day. It was hard,

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:51.119
<v Speaker 5>So that structure of family dinner was important to me.

0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.480
<v Speaker 1>This Sprowl definitely was someone who was a leader amongst

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.560
<v Speaker 1>her peers and somehow was able to get folks to

0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 1>kind of side with her. In essence, and so she

0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.960
<v Speaker 1>often was able to rally folks to isolate our daughter.

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.959
<v Speaker 1>Nicole would often be in tears talking about how this

0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:16.359
<v Speaker 1>little girl at school was bowling her relentlessly, and I

0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.480
<v Speaker 1>was really caught between a rock and a hard place,

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.440
<v Speaker 1>between not wanting to give into a bully, but also

0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.280
<v Speaker 1>to try to instill self confidence in her and look

0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 1>out for her safety.

0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Joel had casual contact with the mother of Nichole's bully

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:32.680
<v Speaker 2>through the kids' activities.

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.080
<v Speaker 1>I said, don't you think maybe we should sit down

0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.760
<v Speaker 1>and talk to her, And he said, let's see if

0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.000
<v Speaker 1>the girls can work this out on her own. And

0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.879
<v Speaker 1>he just reiterated that this was a piece of growing

0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.119
<v Speaker 1>up and that we really should reinstill self confidence in

0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:48.400
<v Speaker 1>our own child so that she could stick up for herself.

0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.199
<v Speaker 2>It was a painful chapter that only improved as Nicole

0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.919
<v Speaker 2>made more friends in high school. Okay, now back to

0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:57.080
<v Speaker 2>the phone records.

0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.000
<v Speaker 1>I had this moment after all of this to pull

0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.959
<v Speaker 1>our phone records. I searched the first number and it

0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.119
<v Speaker 1>came back as the mom of the little girl who

0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:14.679
<v Speaker 1>bullied our daughter so heavily throughout middle school and the

0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:15.760
<v Speaker 1>onset of high school.

0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:22.119
<v Speaker 2>It was right there in black and white, call after call,

0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:28.320
<v Speaker 2>text after text between Joel and the mother of Nicole's bully.

0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.399
<v Speaker 1>Around six in the morning, I called Joel and he

0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.440
<v Speaker 1>answered and I said, Joel, I just pulled our phone records.

0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:44.000
<v Speaker 1>Why are you in constant contact with And he got

0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.679
<v Speaker 1>really quiet and then he said she saw me at

0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 1>target and thought I looked really skinny, and so she

0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:52.720
<v Speaker 1>was concerned for me. So she's just been checking on me.

0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.119
<v Speaker 1>And I said, no, I just don't believe you.

0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:01.320
<v Speaker 2>They both knew it was total bs, but for Joel,

0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:06.200
<v Speaker 2>lying was like a reflex. This time, Caroline demanded the truth,

0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:08.960
<v Speaker 2>and finally he confessed.

0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.600
<v Speaker 1>He said that he had been having an affair with

0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.880
<v Speaker 1>her since our son graduated from high school. It started

0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.680
<v Speaker 1>because she reached out to him and congratulated him on

0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 1>all of our son's accolades. And then he was very

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.639
<v Speaker 1>matter of fact and said, then she said to me,

0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.720
<v Speaker 1>I always look forward to seeing you because I thought

0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.359
<v Speaker 1>you were cute. And he said, from that moment, I

0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.159
<v Speaker 1>knew she'd be easy to have sex with. And so

0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:38.719
<v Speaker 1>he said that he started driving to her home at

0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:42.480
<v Speaker 1>least three times a week and would have sex with

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 1>her while he was on duty.

0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:48.960
<v Speaker 2>All of this was revealed on May eighth, which happened

0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:55.240
<v Speaker 2>to be Caroline's birthday and Mother's Day. At this point,

0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 2>the kids insisted on knowing every new detail. They wanted

0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.359
<v Speaker 2>to know that truth, no matter how disturbing.

0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:07.960
<v Speaker 5>I was just about to turn seventeen. I didn't want

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.040
<v Speaker 5>to be in the shadows, and I wanted like the

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:16.440
<v Speaker 5>full picture of my dad. But then sometimes the full

0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:22.240
<v Speaker 5>picture of my dad was a little gory, and so

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:23.800
<v Speaker 5>it was hard to hear.

0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Hard to hear is an understatement. Joel having an affair

0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:34.680
<v Speaker 2>with the mother of her bully was devastating. Nicole confronted

0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:35.160
<v Speaker 2>her dad.

0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:39.840
<v Speaker 1>She said, you knew what that girl did to me,

0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:41.520
<v Speaker 1>You knew how she treated me.

0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:42.960
<v Speaker 5>You knew that.

0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes you and mommy were the first people I spoke

0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.119
<v Speaker 1>to all day because she got everyone to ignore me.

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:52.400
<v Speaker 1>And then you went and had sex with her.

0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 6>Mom and he just said, I'm sorry, And so it

0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:02.680
<v Speaker 6>was just kind of reality check, like my dad just

0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:07.160
<v Speaker 6>did not care, did not care about his actions and

0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:11.399
<v Speaker 6>who his actions affected.

0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.640
<v Speaker 2>This was the last straw for their son.

0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:22.040
<v Speaker 8>How apparent can witness firsthand the torment that another child

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:27.400
<v Speaker 8>puts on their kid knowing this and then deciding I'm

0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.560
<v Speaker 8>going to have an affair with her mom. And so

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:34.240
<v Speaker 8>there's the breaking point where it's like you are not

0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:39.320
<v Speaker 8>someone I look up to anymore. Your Joel to me,

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.960
<v Speaker 8>now you can go fuck yourself.

0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:03.879
<v Speaker 2>The betrayal with the bully's mom was the deepest wound,

0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that Joel didn't tell his family about

0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:11.080
<v Speaker 2>it himself made it that much worse. But the phone

0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:18.080
<v Speaker 2>records revealed much more. The affairs didn't end there. Caroline

0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:20.880
<v Speaker 2>tracked down the identity of another phone number that appeared

0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:25.480
<v Speaker 2>multiple times. This discovery helped her to make sense of

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:28.040
<v Speaker 2>something that had bothered her for years.

0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Like a lot of spouses who there's significant other spouse

0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:35.879
<v Speaker 1>is a police officer who works during the evening hours.

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:38.760
<v Speaker 1>The kids and I would take him dinner, and so

0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.960
<v Speaker 1>when I would take him dinner, there was a specific

0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:46.320
<v Speaker 1>employee who was just so incredibly mean to me and

0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:50.240
<v Speaker 1>the kids. If our son would drive down and bring

0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:53.240
<v Speaker 1>him like ice cream or something like that, he would

0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 1>notice that this specific person that she was just incredibly

0:25:56.320 --> 0:26:00.600
<v Speaker 1>rude and just not nice.

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:03.960
<v Speaker 2>At Caroline, and she regularly brought it up to Joel and.

0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:05.399
<v Speaker 1>He would be like, Oh, look, you know, she's a

0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.480
<v Speaker 1>miserable person. That's just who she is. You got you

0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:09.320
<v Speaker 1>gotta let that go.

0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Turns out Joel had been contacting this coworker repeatedly. When

0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:18.400
<v Speaker 2>Caroline called Joel to ask if this was another affair,

0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 2>he denied it.

0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:23.480
<v Speaker 1>He said, come on, Caroline, she's just checking on me

0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 1>to make sure I'm okay. I said, I just don't

0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:31.440
<v Speaker 1>believe you, and I hung up, And then he admitted

0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:36.360
<v Speaker 1>that he had started having an affair with this employee

0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.639
<v Speaker 1>when he was a midnight lieutenant, and that the affair

0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:42.280
<v Speaker 1>had continued on, off and on intermittently over the years,

0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:44.560
<v Speaker 1>and that she was even in the process of booking

0:26:44.600 --> 0:26:46.199
<v Speaker 1>a ticket to come out and see him while he

0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:46.920
<v Speaker 1>was in rehab.

0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:52.320
<v Speaker 2>In one text, Joel laments about his situation to this

0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:53.440
<v Speaker 2>same coworker.

0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:57.399
<v Speaker 7>There are pages upon pages of my text exchanges with

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.000
<v Speaker 7>you and our family phone bill line and the kids.

0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:04.199
<v Speaker 7>Seeing it has not lent me to building any trust.

0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:07.400
<v Speaker 7>I should be in contact with them, trying to win

0:27:07.520 --> 0:27:08.440
<v Speaker 7>their trust back.

0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:13.480
<v Speaker 2>He was attempting to cut off contact. It was too little,

0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:18.760
<v Speaker 2>too late. Only ten days after Caroline dealt with the

0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:22.679
<v Speaker 2>phone records, an emergency jolted her out of her grief.

0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:27.760
<v Speaker 1>It was our daughter. She was driving from lunch back

0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:34.200
<v Speaker 1>to school and she was hit by a driver who

0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:37.480
<v Speaker 1>had a long history of DUIs and the driver t

0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:43.960
<v Speaker 1>bones her and totals the car. I got there and

0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:47.800
<v Speaker 1>our daughter was just completely and shock and in a

0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:48.520
<v Speaker 1>ton of pain.

0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:52.400
<v Speaker 2>They drove to the hospital. Caroline felt it was important

0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 2>to let Joel know, but his friends at CSPD had

0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:56.879
<v Speaker 2>beat her to the punch.

0:27:57.400 --> 0:27:59.840
<v Speaker 1>He proceeds to tell me how he already knew some

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of the facts of the accident because his friends had

0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:05.679
<v Speaker 1>recognized her name on the call screen.

0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:13.359
<v Speaker 2>He knew and he didn't call Caroline. Nicole continues to

0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:17.080
<v Speaker 2>recover and still has anxiety about driving. In the weeks

0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:21.080
<v Speaker 2>that followed, the contact between Joel and Caroline mostly revolved

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.680
<v Speaker 2>around logistics concerning the total car from the accident. There

0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.600
<v Speaker 2>wasn't much more to discuss. Then one day Caroline got

0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:33.320
<v Speaker 2>a call from the rehab They had a problem.

0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:36.560
<v Speaker 1>He says to me, Yeah, well, we're not knowing where

0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:38.680
<v Speaker 1>Joel's at, so we wanted to check in. Is he

0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:40.400
<v Speaker 1>with you or you know, do you know if he's

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 1>still at the facility And I said, no, I have

0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:48.160
<v Speaker 1>no idea, and so we still had his location on

0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:50.200
<v Speaker 1>all of our phone so I pulled up his location.

0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:53.120
<v Speaker 1>I can specifically see an address where he was at

0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:57.040
<v Speaker 1>in Hermosa Beach. And then I just looked at our

0:28:57.080 --> 0:29:00.880
<v Speaker 1>phone records, easy enough, and the phone records had one

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:04.680
<v Speaker 1>specific number over and over again, and so I googled

0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:08.040
<v Speaker 1>the number. It comes up to a female's name, and

0:29:08.080 --> 0:29:10.880
<v Speaker 1>then I called the number and I just said, hey,

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:14.240
<v Speaker 1>just to let you know my estranged husband. I believe

0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:17.120
<v Speaker 1>you're with him. He's at a treatment facility and they're

0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:19.440
<v Speaker 1>looking for him. It's important that you let him know

0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:23.320
<v Speaker 1>that they're looking for him. Shortly after that, I got

0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:26.120
<v Speaker 1>a phone call from Joel who said that he had

0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:30.080
<v Speaker 1>relapsed and had fallen prey to his addictions, and that

0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:34.080
<v Speaker 1>he had been meeting women online again and had been

0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:38.720
<v Speaker 1>going out to different areas surrounding Laguna and meeting women.

0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:43.239
<v Speaker 2>Caroline sent emails to his case manager advising him of

0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:49.400
<v Speaker 2>where Joel had gone. With that email went Caroline's last

0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:52.880
<v Speaker 2>shred of hope. Joel hadn't let go of his habits,

0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:57.640
<v Speaker 2>he just relocated them. Caroline made the decision to prioritize

0:29:57.640 --> 0:29:59.720
<v Speaker 2>herself and her daughter's needs.

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:04.880
<v Speaker 1>His next contact with me was to call to say

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:07.360
<v Speaker 1>that he wanted me to know that he got a job.

0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:11.440
<v Speaker 2>This was June twenty twenty two. After about two months

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:15.560
<v Speaker 2>in rehab, Joel told Caroline he was leaving. He landed

0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:18.520
<v Speaker 2>a new job outside of law enforcement. He was getting

0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:23.360
<v Speaker 2>his own apartment in Colorado. Caroline was confused. She thought

0:30:23.440 --> 0:30:25.440
<v Speaker 2>all of this was to try and save his job

0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:26.960
<v Speaker 2>at the police department.

0:30:27.360 --> 0:30:30.040
<v Speaker 1>And so he said he was at this point just

0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:33.920
<v Speaker 1>hoping he could retire without any type of concern or

0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:35.200
<v Speaker 1>charge of misconduct.

0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:38.480
<v Speaker 2>He wouldn't know if he would be criminally charged or

0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.200
<v Speaker 2>how his actions would affect his record until later in

0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 2>the summer. Would he be allowed to retire scott free

0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.880
<v Speaker 2>or would there be consequences. We'll get to this in

0:30:48.920 --> 0:30:52.720
<v Speaker 2>our next episode. For now, though, Joel seemed to accept

0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:56.000
<v Speaker 2>that he had to move on from the CSPD. He

0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:59.240
<v Speaker 2>came back to Colorado to start a new job, and

0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Caroline got clear about their relationship. It was over. Now

0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:06.480
<v Speaker 2>they would have to work out the terms of their divorce,

0:31:07.080 --> 0:31:11.080
<v Speaker 2>so they set a meeting to hash out details concerning money, property,

0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:12.120
<v Speaker 2>and custody.

0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:16.920
<v Speaker 1>He and I agree that we'll meet on the fourth

0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:20.040
<v Speaker 1>of July to agree on some things to be able

0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:22.680
<v Speaker 1>to divide them out, and we agree to meet at

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:25.720
<v Speaker 1>a coffee shop that we used to frequent together a lot.

0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:29.440
<v Speaker 1>And so when I walked into the coffee shop, it

0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:34.040
<v Speaker 1>was just so bizarre. I see this older gentleman who

0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:38.520
<v Speaker 1>clearly is not my husband. I see a young teenager

0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:42.600
<v Speaker 1>who obviously is not my husband. And then I see

0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:48.880
<v Speaker 1>this man who was fully bearded, hair is shaggy, he's

0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 1>wearing a fedora and a skull shirt, and he's waving

0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 1>at me from a distance. And I had to take

0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:01.400
<v Speaker 1>pause and stand for several seconds and the entryway of

0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:05.719
<v Speaker 1>this coffee shop and stare at him. Joel had always

0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:09.240
<v Speaker 1>been someone who was extremely clean cut, and I just

0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:14.160
<v Speaker 1>sat down. And so as I sat down, he had

0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:20.120
<v Speaker 1>his phone facing up and I could see prompt after

0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:23.600
<v Speaker 1>prompt after prompt coming up, you know, just notification after

0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:27.680
<v Speaker 1>notification after notification of his own of various dating apps,

0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:32.800
<v Speaker 1>tender bumble, and it was just constant, constant, constant.

0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:39.239
<v Speaker 2>Caroline ignored the unending alerts. Then the conversation turned to

0:32:39.280 --> 0:32:43.680
<v Speaker 2>their daughter. Following the incident with her bully's mother. Nicole

0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:47.640
<v Speaker 2>refused to be in contact with Joel, but she was seventeen,

0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:50.680
<v Speaker 2>so there was still the issue of child support.

0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 1>He said he shouldn't have to pay child support for

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:58.160
<v Speaker 1>someone who wasn't in contact with him, and so we

0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:00.440
<v Speaker 1>went back and forth, and we even talked about that

0:33:00.520 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 1>when we went through the mediation process, and I could

0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:07.280
<v Speaker 1>not see myself forcing her to go through that. I mean,

0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:10.120
<v Speaker 1>my attorney advised me that we could go and have

0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:13.640
<v Speaker 1>court testimony and take a look at what a judge

0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:16.440
<v Speaker 1>would rule in that, and I just agreed to waive

0:33:16.560 --> 0:33:19.000
<v Speaker 1>child support so that I didn't have to put her

0:33:19.080 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 1>through that. After we agreed on how things would be

0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:27.240
<v Speaker 1>divided out, we started walking out of the coffee shop.

0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:32.400
<v Speaker 1>He walks me over to where I parked, and it's

0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 1>such an ironic memory because I see his watch and

0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:46.200
<v Speaker 1>I can just see the constant notifications, and so I

0:33:46.240 --> 0:33:50.360
<v Speaker 1>thought to myself, let's see what you say, and I

0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:53.440
<v Speaker 1>just said, your phone kept going off and your watch

0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:58.320
<v Speaker 1>is going off so much. And his comment was, these

0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:01.320
<v Speaker 1>are all my friends from rehab and my therapist. They

0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:04.960
<v Speaker 1>just keep reaching out to me. I mean, even in

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:09.480
<v Speaker 1>that moment after everything that had gone on, he just

0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 1>looked at me and lied, I mean blatantly lied, and

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:16.120
<v Speaker 1>so I didn't even argue with him on it. I

0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:20.359
<v Speaker 1>just nodded my head and then I said, thanks for

0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:23.839
<v Speaker 1>meeting me, have a good Fourth of July. And then

0:34:23.880 --> 0:34:25.799
<v Speaker 1>he said, can I have a hug? And I said no,

0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:30.200
<v Speaker 1>and then he just stared at me for several seconds,

0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 1>and like his voice was cracking, and he said, you

0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 1>will always be.

0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:41.600
<v Speaker 9>The love of my life.

0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:42.840
<v Speaker 1>And I just stared at.

0:34:42.719 --> 0:34:45.920
<v Speaker 10>Him, and then he said, I hope you know I

0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:47.680
<v Speaker 10>love you more than anything in this world and I

0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:52.680
<v Speaker 10>always will. And all I could stay back was okay,

0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:56.960
<v Speaker 10>and we parted ways and that was the last time

0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 10>we saw each other and probably ever will.

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:08.719
<v Speaker 2>On the next episode of Betrayal.

0:35:08.600 --> 0:35:13.759
<v Speaker 9>When I came home, there was this envelope taped to

0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:17.360
<v Speaker 9>our front door, and she just had this desperation in

0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:19.640
<v Speaker 9>her face, like she just was hoping for it, and

0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:26.759
<v Speaker 9>she said, oh, my gosh, is that from my dad?

0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If you

0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:32.920
<v Speaker 2>would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email

0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:37.200
<v Speaker 2>us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:41.200
<v Speaker 2>at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to follow

0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:45.120
<v Speaker 2>us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H.

0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates. One way

0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:50.799
<v Speaker 2>to support the series is by subscribing to our show

0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:54.960
<v Speaker 2>on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star

0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:59.200
<v Speaker 2>reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal

0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:02.320
<v Speaker 2>is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is

0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:10.480
<v Speaker 2>executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin. Betrayal is

0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:18.240
<v Speaker 2>by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate

0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:22.439
<v Speaker 2>producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team

0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:26.960
<v Speaker 2>is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard,

0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins.

0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Special thanks to voice actor John Blomo, and special thanks

0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:39.600
<v Speaker 2>to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by

0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and for

0:36:44.160 --> 0:36:47.799
<v Speaker 2>more podcasts from iHeart visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts

0:36:47.960 --> 0:36:50.360
<v Speaker 2>for wherever you get your podcasts.