WEBVTT - Keep the Army Out of Gaming 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:10.559 It could happen here coming to you live from my 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.440 room in Chicago. But but importantly we were coming to 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:17.680 your life, and it could happen here Central where the 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.440 gamers have seized the pod. It is me, Christopher, it 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:28.240 is Garrison. Hello, fellow gamer. Hello, and in the gaming 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:33.080 trenches with my razor headset on, looking into my uh 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.120 NA video powered view flinder, and I'm ready to continue 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.880 on the fight. It's gonna be great. We're talking about 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.520 talking about gaming, We're talking about the military, we're talking 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:45.960 about why the two of them crossing is extremely bad. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.400 And uh with us to talk about this are two 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:55.080 people who are somewhat less clownish than we are. Um. 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.600 This is Katie and Chris from Gamers for Peace, which 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.360 is an initiative of Vesterans for Peace. Well, welcome to 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.640 the show. Hello, Hey, thank you. I take offensive dying 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.640 called less clowns, and I'm just trying to live up 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.680 to your standard. I'll have you know. I am very, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.720 very clownish and clumsy and all of those good things. 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:22.880 And he trusted me with weapons. Oh God. So I 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:29.440 guess starting out I wanted to talk about I guess 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.880 very generally the history of counter recruitment, because this is 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.800 something that's been going on in the U. S. Military 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.800 for I mean, it really is like from from what 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:40.520 I could tell, like about as long as there's been 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.240 you know, recruitment for the military. But I was wondering 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.600 if we could start I don't know, maybe maybe maybe 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.000 around sort of the Vietnam era when you when there's 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.560 you know, very very serious and intense sort of left 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.960 wing kind of recruitment, and then we can go from there. Yeah. Yeah, 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.680 So coming out of a Vietnam you have Vietnam Veterans 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:07.240 against the war forming, uh, and there's a massive pushback 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.519 on uh, the draft. Uh. The anti war movement is 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.200 pretty much at its strongest, and Vietnam Veterans against war 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.640 over time becomes a veteran for peace. Veterans for Peace 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.320 has a long legacy of sitting at the front of 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:28.480 the anti war movement peace movement, participating in nuclear abolition work, 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:33.240 kind of recruitment work, the escalation work out of Save 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.760 Our v A, helping veterans get assistance with disability benefits, 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:41.320 and making sure that the traumas that veterans suffer and 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:46.000 the communities of um impacted by the military suffer are 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:51.520 getting treatment for the care UH deported veterans because Vietnam 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.560 that's served and then got deported, and that continues to 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:59.440 this day. UH SO Veterans for Peace at a multi 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:05.919 pronged approach, the anti war efforts and UH two thousands 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:12.079 around UH two thousand seven, Ish Iraq Afghanistan Iraq Veterans 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:14.919 against the War later known as Iraq Afghanistan Veterans Against 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:16.680 the War comes along and that's a new generation of 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.760 veterans carrying a long built on the legacy of Veterans 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.400 for Peace and being non veterans against the war. UM 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.480 you know, there's a long history of coffee shops, g 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:34.160 I Resistance, UM Outreach doing work with veterans, trying constances 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:39.360 objective object or work um GI resisted work in in there, 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.920 and there's just a long legacy of just veterans sharing 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:47.600 their experiences and coming back and really ah wanting to 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.280 make sure nobody else goes through that and making sure 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.480 that they get the help they need and kind of 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.360 slow that that beat of the war drum that seems 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:00.280 to media seems to always be picking up, and that's 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:05.760 where we came in. That's definitely a good way to 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.800 put it now, UM, especially born out of the pandemic, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.280 a lot of the recruiting had to move online. They 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.720 didn't really have if they wanted to keep recruiting, they 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.520 had to go online, and that's where a majority of 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.200 the newest generation is they are watching Twitch. Twitch had 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:24.039 a viewership like pretty much competing with Netflix streaming UM 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.120 as of this summer, and I'm sure that hasn't really 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.919 changed much. I'm sure it is just as popular UM 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.440 and the audience for Twitch skews very young. So that's 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:35.039 really what started to worry members of Veterans for Peace, like, Okay, 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.520 we might need to ramp up truth and recruitment UM initiatives, 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.360 which is what Games for Peace came out of. Because 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.240 the thing is, if you're forming a paras social relationship 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.960 with these younger kids by streaming and forming those laserships, 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.880 getting them on discord and talking to them, you're getting 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.480 a one sided view of what military services about, and 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:58.200 you are definitely not getting the uh, imperialist informed viewpoint 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.520 for sure. UM. So Venoms for Peace kind of came 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.360 out of that. That's like very insidious looking, uh, hidden 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.000 and subtle way of recruiting using the video games that 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.880 have already historically been used for recruiting purposes. So it's 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.440 like a double it's like a double way they got 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.800 on us there for those not inundated in the game 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.560 or warfare like we are. Um, how let's I think 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.760 we should briefly describe what twitches because I know a 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.679 lot of people probably probably isn't actually aware of of Twitch. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.360 That's whereas we are down in these trenches finding off 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:40.880 the cyber net stuff bad sor yeah. Yeah, So I 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.080 guess twitches like a live stream platform that is primarily 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.719 used for live streaming people playing video games, and people 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.120 kind of help their own like brands and like personalities 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.240 and like paras social relationships with an audience via them 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.160 playing these games and kind of adding their commentary, you know, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.160 variety of games. You know, sometimes it's like mostly chatting 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.760 with people like inside like a group chat while playing 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.320 a game. Um or you know, it's of more focused 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.000 on the game itself. It kind of varies, but yeah, 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.479 it's a it's a it's it's arguably the biggest live 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.680 streaming platform. I think it was brought by Amazon a 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.840 few years ago. Um, and yes, there is a there 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.839 is a US there's a there's a few US like 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:28.360 military channels on there that are actually relatively popular. UM. 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.120 I guess the other thing to kind of get into 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.040 for some background is, like you mentioned, you already kind 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.719 of alluded to this, but like the history of the U. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.640 S Military using video games for propaganda because they've been 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.880 they've been one of the earliest funders of games for 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.520 this reason. I think getting into that history is like interesting, 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.520 um and something that some people are definitely aware of, 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.640 but a lot of times can get overlooked, despite you know, 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.960 Call of Duty being the one of the biggest video 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.440 game franchises in the world. Yeah. Absolutely, the UM military 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:05.719 and involvement in video game video game design using as recruitment, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.400 using it primary Initially, at first it was thought of 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.200 as a training tool and they started looking at it 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.440 for training. UM. If you think back to like early 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:19.360 nineties Doom, the original Doom had a mod released h 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:24.120 called the Marine Mod. It was a modification designed for 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.680 the Marine Corps to use to train marines and as 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.480 early as the early nineties when Doom was at its height, 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.280 and then then that grows from there. You have First 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.720 to Fight, uh what is it? Uh? Game called First 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.000 to Fight features Marine Corps marines and dress blues where 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:45.000 you're tactically uh fighting a battle and um in which 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:46.640 you never want to do. If you know anything about 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.600 the Marine Corps Blues, you do not want to be 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.600 doing anything in those that isn't getting drunk exactly, just 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.640 drunk and dancing and blues is all they're good for. UM. Yeah, 0:07:57.840 --> 0:07:59.760 so you have you have a first to fight and 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.720 then it turns into Call of Duty America's Army, which 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.880 thankfully just got pulled down all its platform from its platform. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.080 That's a huge win. But the Army started design getting 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:16.120 into the development of video games for training, UH and 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.360 then got into it for as recruiting, and America's Army 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.960 is a perfect highlight of that where they just flat 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.720 out had recruitment posters and training things UH in there 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.680 with links to how to get to recruiters or get 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:33.160 more information about joining the military joining the army. UM 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.480 you have armor to uh. You could you could argue 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:42.160 and draw the line from military training simulators to pub 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.720 G Underground, which is one of the uh most biggest 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.760 Battle Royale games, which is where you get Fortnite out of. 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.760 So you can draw these lines straight from the military's 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.360 involvement in designing training and recruitment materials to what our 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.760 kids are playing the most these days. And really one 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.920 of the most kind of sick factors of this is 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.960 like how much games have been designed and pushed towards 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.920 basically training people for um like uh, I guess we're 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.040 trying to think of the term, but like combat at 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.319 a distance in terms of like drawing, like drone combat. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.320 There's just like they started just using Xbox controllers for 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.800 some like drone missions. Like like it's like they're specifically 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.480 looking at the pipeline of specifically young males who get 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.240 into this type of gaming and trying everything they can 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.080 to push them into a career where they just kill 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:41.400 people in overseas countries using the same technology, using you know, 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:46.079 using video game controllers, using like you know, operating systems 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.360 very similar to what we're being used in video games. 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:51.160 And I mean, like in video games are a very 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.760 effective propaganda tool. If you're thinking, like, Okay, I mean 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.160 I just enjoy playing war games. It's not like, what's 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.520 what's the big deal? Like sure, like I also enjoy 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.640 playing war games. Sometimes they can be a fun um 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.120 you know, I like this like tactics based games. But 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.440 these have been shown to be very effective at recruitment, 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:08.480 to the point that video game footage and video games 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.800 were like one of isis favorite recruitment and propaganda tactics 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.760 as well, like this is it's a it's a thing, 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.960 like it's not it's not just like oh, it's fine, 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.680 Like no, these these things are actually kind of a 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.120 profit of Yeah. Um, they are very effective in that 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.320 manner as a recruiting a tool, and there is a 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:32.040 real synergy between gaming developers and the d o D 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.000 because of how effective, uh, you know that recruiting can be, 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.800 or the recruiting tool can be. Um, similar to movies, 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.080 you know, the military entertainment complex is a term thrown 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.840 around a lot for good reason. You know, you have 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.120 there is a black box of politics. Whenever you're watching 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.080 a movie that picks u yeah, some sort of power 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.240 structure against whatever the villain is doing. There's there, there's 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.360 always something there, and video games are not too different 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.400 from that. Just have a little bit more say and 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.520 where the story goes, but maybe not even it depends 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.280 on the development. But um, there's article in The Atlantic 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.720 that was it was actually like about a book. Um, 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:16.160 from because Dexter Thomas warplay and it's all about video 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.920 gaming and the relationship with the military. And they said 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.160 the Pentagon avoids pitiful, expensive efforts to create their own 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:27.120 training simulators, and developers get fat government checks so they 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:31.120 can help fund these new games, new virtual reality things 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.640 under the guys of it being a useful training tool 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:39.480 for training in like virtual virtual reality environments, which it 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.640 scares me already. Um, And then game developers are like, great, 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.680 I can get a government grant, so even if this flops, 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:47.679 we still got the money out of it. That's not 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.000 an uncommon phenomena. Yeah, I mean in terms of like filmmaking, Yeah, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.320 like there's been there's rules for like Pentagon contracts with 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.600 film studios still be like, if you want to use 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.200 you know, U. S. Military equipment or personnel, you need 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.400 to follow these specific rules to betray the military in 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.960 this light, um, which often do get followed just because 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.240 people want to use the cool equipment and stuff. You know. 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.480 I'm still angry that my that my beloved Transformers got 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.240 cooked by the U. S. Military and all of their 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:17.720 films um. And as a result of films are pretty 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.079 pretty bad. Um. Yeah, I'll have you know they are 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:24.719 film are you know? I'm sorry, I can't even keep 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.760 you straight. I hope I as a as someone with 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.960 many many star scream action figures, I I dream of 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:38.280 one day of having good Transformers movies, classic, the you know, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.920 the eighties classic, Um, You've Got You've Got the Touch, 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.480 um and the Bumblebee film is okay, but it's even 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.360 still that one got coocked, that one got cooked by 0:12:47.360 --> 0:13:01.920 the military pretty pretty severely. Yes, it's it's funny that 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:07.280 you mentioned isis using video gaming. Uh, there's just a 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.599 recent report came out. It's linked to the u N. 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.320 I believe it's linked to the u N. Council on 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:18.080 Counter Terrorism or Office counter Terrorism. Uh, talking about violent 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.880 extremism and gaming, the link between video games and violent extremism. 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:23.559 And what's really interesting is it's not so much that 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.520 the video games themselves are the issue. It's the gaming 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.520 adjacent space. It's it's the para social relationship development, it's 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:35.360 the meme, and it's the what what we've what we've 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.560 known in in the gaming world for a while as 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.520 associated with like the behaviors and culture around gamer Gate 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.160 and things things like that, where we see this, uh, 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:51.600 this toxic culture that um is easy to cultivate inside 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.800 these spaces and and be co opted for more to 0:13:54.920 --> 0:14:00.120 various things. UM. And that doesn't that's that doesn't mean 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.479 that the military isn't banking or utilizing these same principles 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:08.520 to get its recruiting messages across. The military is another 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.800 violent extreme position, right. You're whether it's you're the violent 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:18.360 arm of capitalism and the state or or violent like 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:23.320 domestic terrorists or something like that, you're still um opting 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:28.080 into or your position is still getting mobilized towards potentially 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.040 doing violence. And these gaming adjacent spaces are make it 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.440 really easy for recruiters of all sorts to be in 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.960 there and uh push people to more of that side 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.360 of things. Yeah. One of the things I remember when 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.560 I was like a teenager on Twitch was like, so 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:45.440 I watched just like a lot of harsh touch streams, right, 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.400 and this was like these were, you know, like completely 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.480 main light, hard stone streams. And there was there was 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:55.040 this artist who everyone called Kebab the German and uh, yeah, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.760 so it turns out that Cabab the German was a miss. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.520 It was like a shortening like abbreviation of his actual name. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.320 Which was removed Kebab, and this guy's stuff was just 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.840 being played on like every major like like Twitch, like 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.120 all the major artonal streaments were just playing remove Kebab 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.640 songs and it was like and this this was just 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:16.880 like what like this is just what Twitch was in 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:23.320 like and yeah, like there there's so much like the 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.320 the extent to which just this sort of like i 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.000 mean just overtly fascist like melieu would just seep into 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.720 just like you know, here's a bunch of people playing 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.440 a card game and like it wasn't it wasn't even 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.640 like like I mean, some of these streamers were like 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.600 really reactionally like I've seen I've seen t streamers who 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.480 like will like watch videos of like cops doing right 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.960 like raids on people's houses on stream. Like you know, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:50.320 it's like you have those people who are like really 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:51.720 far right, but some of these people were just like 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.040 I don't know, they're just a lot of them are 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:58.840 just regular reels extremists. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just sort 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.880 of culturally value. Yeah. Well even then, like some of 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:03.880 them just like I think with like like with with 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.280 with with like with the Germans, like they just didn't know, 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.000 like they just they just like didn't know what was 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.080 going on, and so they were just you know, spreading 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:16.880 all of this stuff and it was like it was horrifying. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.400 And actually I'm glad you mentioned that because about a 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.280 year ago, the the Army Sports Channel got in trouble 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.280 because one of the streamers didn't catch on to to 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.080 there were two user names that were explicitly white supremacist. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.240 One of them was um six million was not enough. 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.320 Yeah uh yeah, yeah, real, real gross. And I guess 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.720 like just in the whole idea of multitasking between playing 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.720 a game, trying to interact with chat, and trying to 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.640 make sure you're you're on screen and all of those things, 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.480 they didn't realize it, or they willfully didn't realize it. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:48.920 I don't know which one, and I'm not going to 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:50.880 make a judgment either way, but they did. They had 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:52.720 to shut down that stream, and I don't think they 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:54.520 streamed for a couple of weeks after that. They had 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.840 to like reassess some some things because they're like, hey, actively, 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.320 you know, white supre him is this people are on 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.600 your stream? You should probably you should probably do something 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.359 about that. And I feel like, if you're the U 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.919 s military streaming on Twitch. That someone's job should just 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:13.920 be to prevent that from happening, like the resources. Yeah, 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:15.560 but like they kind of have this problem with though, 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.199 because Twitch has a there's a there's a huge just 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.800 like like core, like a large enough base of Twitch 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:26.760 users are just like fascist or like hard right wingers 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.400 that do things like like there have been a persistent 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.720 problem on Twitch for for years now of like these 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.639 hate raids, like people doing mass raids on like anyone 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.920 who's not white and anyone who's like not just white dude, 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.560 and just like hate rating their channels and like spamming 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.080 the chat with like slurs and stuff like that. And 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.120 you know when when that's you know, and that that's 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:52.800 too large, Like yeah, like those those are the people, 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.119 like you know that that's a large enough part of 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.840 Twitch that like even even even if you're like taking 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.520 the most charitable thing, which that the US, like the 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.919 Army is not overtly recruiting white supremacists, which like okay, 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:07.800 but like even even if you give them the benefit 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:09.680 of the doubt, right, like that that's a large enough 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.359 part of just what Twitch is. They haven't a cent 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:17.440 of in front of blind eye and and radicalization, specifically 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:20.359 right wing and white nationalist radicalization in the military is 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.240 well studied and well established as an existing phenomena. I 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:28.040 knew someone personally who uh got caught trying to smuggle 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.199 weapons for a neo Nazi group, and that's all I'll 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.640 say on that. Boy. Yeah, yeah, No, it is a thing, 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.720 and it hits really close. It is definitely a phenomena 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.280 that happens in the military, and um, these paramilitary Nazi 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.280 groups actively recruit from people coming out in the military 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.520 because they have the training set they want. And I mean, 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.240 I trying to figure out a way to tie this 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.359 back to recruiting online. But it's like, with all of 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.840 this in mind, it is very insidious that the target 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.439 is explicitly young kids. And I'm not saying that just 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.080 to be like, oh, you know, because we've got a 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.159 lot of We've gotten pushed back was saying, well, the 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.320 military doesn't recruit kids, so you can only sign up 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:07.240 for their seventeen About that a kid. That was completely bullshit. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:14.280 That is a kid. Second of all, it's like, the 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.760 thing is it's it's it's just like grooming children. That's 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.040 that's what it is. Like. It it's the same process 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.639 of grooming. That's that's what's going on. Yeah, one of 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.600 one of my best friends growing up, like because it 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:27.919 was my best friend for like a decade, Like I 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:29.560 met him in first grade. He was my friend for 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.480 the entirety of school and then he got like because 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.399 his parents sent him away to like one of one 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:40.159 of those like uh like summer like like military school camp, 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.080 and he was just never the same afterwards, and he's 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:47.480 like a fascist now, And yeah, that's it sucks. Yeah, 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.920 that does suck. That. There's not a better word for that. 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.040 That that sucks because yeah, they can't sign up until 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.040 they're seventeen, but that's not the point. Isn't convince seventeen 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.840 year olds? The point the points to Ingraine this, I 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.520 d in them when they're like sucking twelve years old 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.280 on the internet. And that is just what grooming is, right, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.680 Starting it when you're when they're young, so when they're 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.200 old enough they will be able to sign up for 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.320 the thing. Like that's that's what the process is, and 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.159 that's what like, you know, military propaganda recruitment's been doing 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.080 for a long time, but the specifically the way it's 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.560 being done on the internet around gaming is extrasidious. It 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.200 was literally it is explicitly said by one of UM 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.280 A recruiting officer, Dr. E. Casey Wardinsky. And I apologize 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.760 if I'm pronouncing that wrong, but the you literally said 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.080 we have to confront this question. I willie wait until 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.320 they're seventeen or really start talking to them at age twelve, thirteen, 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.520 fourteen fifteen when they form the set of things they 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.760 were thinking about doing with their life. Because we're literally 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.280 saying we want to groom children. Is like, yeah, so 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:45.600 I think now would be the time to kind of 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:49.240 get into the countering side of things. It's like, yes, 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:50.760 this is a this is a big problem, as we've 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.000 laid out the past twenty minutes of what can we 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:58.040 do about it? Yeah, so what can we do about it? 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:03.080 There's um a good deal that we can do about it? Right, 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:08.320 UM we we Veterans for Peace, the Truth and Recruitment 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:13.119 UH working Group came up with an idea for the 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.879 Games for Peace Initiative concerned veterans and gamers and UH 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.359 and allies because Veterans for piecesn't just comprised the veterans themselves, 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.800 it's also allies and accomplices. UM came together and started 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:30.359 forming an online community of our own UM where we 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.720 have kind of adopted some four channels. Have changed this 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.679 concept of four channels to change. One do education talking 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:42.399 about UH, sharing our experiences as veterans, talking about and 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:48.440 unpacking recruitment tactics and techniques. UH. Start talking being extremely 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.960 vocal and raise awareness around the recruitment techniques that we've 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.840 we've already been talking about. Right. Uh. Second, we're doing 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.879 some mentorship and leadership stuff, starting to develop programs in 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.280 local communities that offer alternatives to the economic draft. Right, 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.600 like just throwing it back to where we started talking 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:08.840 about coming out of Vietnam. It has already said that 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.720 sergeant hard Times is the best recruiter and it posts 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.400 posts the drafts we went when we went to an 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.320 all volunteer force. You have to have a reason to join. 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:20.480 And there's a thing called the economic draft. And it's 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.600 the impoverished conditions that many kids in people face that 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.200 forced them to go into the military. Right, you don't 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.760 have healthcare coming out of high school, you're in an 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.600 abusive home, you're not talking to a guidance counselor, no 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:33.320 college is coming to you don't know how to pay 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:35.440 for college. You don't know where what you're going to 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.800 do because you're eighteen and on your own. And that's 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.840 what we keep telling kids. So you have the economic draft, 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.160 which encourage gives an opportunity for recruiters to go, hey, 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.200 this this program will solve everything. And what what people 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:50.240 don't realize is what's being asked is are you willing 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:52.440 to kill for a camaro? Are you willing to kill 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:53.879 just to have a roof over your head? Are you 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.040 willing to kill for medicare? Right? So we're starting to 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.800 focus on developing mentorship and leadership program UM include helping 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.119 kids and young adults get into college or find mutual 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.359