1
00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:07,080
Speaker 1: Also media. Anderson was found on the streets of the

2
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,360
Speaker 1: Inland Empire about to get on the freeway, covered in

3
00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,760
Speaker 1: ticks and sleeze. And now she dresses nicer than everyone

4
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: I know, Yeah she does.

5
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:21,279
Speaker 2: She dresses nicer than me. I'm Robert Evans, host of

6
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,079
Speaker 2: the podcast that Sophie is trying to ruin by attacking

7
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 2: my sense of fashion. You know whose sense of fashion

8
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,520
Speaker 2: is unimpeachable Anderson our guest today, Ed Zetron. Oh yeah,

9
00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:33,360
Speaker 2: m hm.

10
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 3: They love me. They love me, and they love my fashion.

11
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:37,320
Speaker 3: They love how I talk.

12
00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you are a classy man, Ed, And that's

13
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,640
Speaker 2: why you're personally offended by Steve Jobs, a man who

14
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,560
Speaker 2: was the opposite of classy in any given situation.

15
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,760
Speaker 3: It's almost like he chose the most classless action every

16
00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 3: time look a remark, almost deliberately, but it's uncua. He

17
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,280
Speaker 3: was just an awe hole and idioto both.

18
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 2: I've had to you know, for me, I've had to

19
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 2: go back and forth on this because on paper, I

20
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,440
Speaker 2: love the idea of someone going into meetings with all

21
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,319
Speaker 2: of these like finance ghoules and like being just like

22
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,399
Speaker 2: filthy and gross and like washing your feet at the

23
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,480
Speaker 2: table because like, fuck you, like I know you want

24
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,039
Speaker 2: you want in on this, and you'll give me the

25
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 2: money anyway. That would be that's kind of a cool

26
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 2: flex if you're just legitimately like a like a punk weirdo,

27
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 2: like like a gross man who's like, yeah, I don't

28
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,640
Speaker 2: I just don't give a shit. The fact that Steve's

29
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 2: Steve always has to like dress it up with like, well,

30
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 2: I don't need to shower because I know the secret

31
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,200
Speaker 2: of mucus and how to stop yourself from ever needing

32
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,839
Speaker 2: to bathe, or like, well, you shouldn't have to wear

33
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:46,760
Speaker 2: shoes because it blocks the energy waves.

34
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: You know, Anderson has a better hygiene.

35
00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 3: Ropes easily well, Sleeve Drops really has bad hygiene now

36
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,200
Speaker 3: because he's dead.

37
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 4: Wow, you had for that really fun bad.

38
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 2: If he were sleep Drops, if he were like this,

39
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 2: if he were just coming in being like, look, man,

40
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 2: I woke up at like an hour before this meeting.

41
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 2: I haven't bathed in four days because I have been

42
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 2: doing nothing but like taking hallucinogens and mashing. And now

43
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to sell you a computer that's more respectable

44
00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 2: than like, actually, you don't understand I'm not gross. You

45
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,120
Speaker 2: just have understand health wrong. Let me tell you what

46
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 2: my guru told me. One of those is more annoying

47
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 2: to me.

48
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,880
Speaker 3: This is the one charming thing about future Bosstard Sam

49
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 3: Bankman freed, though, I do kind of respect that he'd

50
00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,280
Speaker 3: go on meetings with Sequoia Capital or whoever and just

51
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,359
Speaker 3: play League of Legends in the background, like I'm I

52
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 3: just gonna down and do this, Like yeah, sure, it's

53
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,800
Speaker 3: a shame. He was just like a giant scam artist.

54
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 3: Yeah he was, But I do like it. It's more

55
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 3: respectable for him to just well, I don't know. He

56
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 3: kind of did dress it up though, too, because his

57
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,239
Speaker 3: whole thing was like, at least the thing. It's hard

58
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:55,640
Speaker 3: to tell how much of this is Sam and how

59
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 3: much of this is other writers just like looking for

60
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,560
Speaker 3: an angle, but like the I can't not be playing

61
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 3: Legal Legends because my giant brain needs the distraction to focus.

62
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,559
Speaker 3: Is kind of like the modern is doing to ADHD

63
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,640
Speaker 3: what Steve Jobs did to Eastern mysticism, right where he

64
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 3: like built this this aura around himself.

65
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 2: Is this like I went to the East and I

66
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 2: learned the secrets of the Orient, and now I've brought

67
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 2: back my wisdom to incorporate into capitalism. Right, that's just

68
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 2: the back then version of like, well, my ADHD gives

69
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 2: me a super brain, but I can never actually pay

70
00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,480
Speaker 2: attention to anything Otherwise.

71
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 3: Me and my friends are the only people smart enough

72
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 3: to be nice properly. Yeah, that'll be a good future one.

73
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we've done some Sam Bankman Freed. We've done

74
00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 2: a lot of Sam Bankmanent Freed. I haven't done a

75
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 2: dedicated one on the effect of altruists, but they are

76
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 2: all in like a continuum from jobs, right, he would

77
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 2: never He would be furious about and like disgusted in

78
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 2: the effective altruists in much the same way as I

79
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 2: think like people who grew up in the Internet using

80
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,840
Speaker 2: something awful hate four Chan, Right, yes, but not neither

81
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 2: of them is better than the other. They're just in

82
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,760
Speaker 2: a continuum. Right. Actually, I mean something off is a

83
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 2: little better than four Chan.

84
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,119
Speaker 3: But nice to high bar jobs with jobs, he would

85
00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,400
Speaker 3: have been very angry at how fake it was, and

86
00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 3: possibly seen that as a challenge to make a real one.

87
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,360
Speaker 2: But to know, yeah, one of the great I can

88
00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,840
Speaker 2: talk myself either way into, Like Steve Jobs would have

89
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,719
Speaker 2: been the biggest crypto guy or Steve Jobs would have

90
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 2: been a lone voice in the wilderness crying out for

91
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 2: people to stop doing this dumb shit. Yeah, I think

92
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,520
Speaker 2: you could go either way, fifty to fifty. I think

93
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 2: it's entirely because he does. We don't really cover it

94
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 2: in these episodes. He does try briefly to get into

95
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 2: social media later and you know, after he's come back.

96
00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 3: To Apple iTunes pain Yeah right.

97
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that was it. It doesn't it's not

98
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 2: really worth talking about because it's just like, yeah, it

99
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 2: didn't work out, but it's not in a way that's

100
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 2: particularly compelling. What is compelling is how shitty Steve Jobs

101
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,080
Speaker 2: was now and a lot of ink has been spilled

102
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,320
Speaker 2: about Steve's hatred of meat, and it's to reiterate because like,

103
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing I think an ethical person,

104
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,200
Speaker 2: even if you eat meat, can be like, well, yeah,

105
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 2: like being vegans obviously better as a general rule than

106
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,840
Speaker 2: eating factory We can talk about like carbon and like, well,

107
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 2: if you're like hunting or whatever a meat is that

108
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 2: lower carbon costs than you know, or picking up roadkill,

109
00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,279
Speaker 2: that's all outside of it, but most people can agree, like, yeah,

110
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,160
Speaker 2: it's it's reasonable to think that our attitudes towards red

111
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:25,719
Speaker 2: meat as a culture's fucking nuts.

112
00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 5: Right.

113
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 2: Maybe this was the thing that Steve's Steve was right about,

114
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 2: because there is a lot of horrible stuff that goes

115
00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,160
Speaker 2: on in you know, the animal products industry. But it's

116
00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 2: important to reiterate here Steve's hatred of meat does not

117
00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,359
Speaker 2: stem from any kind of real moral objection, right, Like

118
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,200
Speaker 2: he'll make he'll signpost about that from time to time,

119
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 2: but he's pretty clear whenever you really get him talking

120
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,839
Speaker 2: about it, that it stems centrally from his these weird

121
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,200
Speaker 2: pseudoscientific beliefs he has about health and diet, and this

122
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 2: is a kin to a religion for him, which is

123
00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,520
Speaker 2: why he got really angry when people would like try

124
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,480
Speaker 2: to make him sh right, because he's following he's on tech,

125
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 2: as the scientologists say, so he shouldn't stink, and there's

126
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,159
Speaker 2: something wrong with you if you think he does.

127
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,839
Speaker 3: You're the one with the mucus problem, buddy.

128
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's you know, I think that, you know,

129
00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 2: I definitely have known people who were who were vegetarianter

130
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 2: vegan who like if a friend you know, or a

131
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 2: family member they were if with ordered meat, they could

132
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 2: get kind of like snippy at that person. I think

133
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,720
Speaker 2: I've ever met someone who is a vegetarianter vegan who

134
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,599
Speaker 2: would be shitty to a small child for wanting to

135
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,240
Speaker 2: order meat, right, And that's the kind of guy Steve

136
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,599
Speaker 2: Jobs was. Right. Oh yeah. So when Steve's daughter Lisa

137
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 2: was in her early grade school years, her father came

138
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,800
Speaker 2: back into her life and this meant a few awkward

139
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,799
Speaker 2: visits at first, mostly centered around trips to like skating

140
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,159
Speaker 2: and the like, but they did gradually overtime expand And

141
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,240
Speaker 2: one thing I will say for Steve is that his

142
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,599
Speaker 2: relationship with his daughter evolves, right, And that does show

143
00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,280
Speaker 2: he has some capacity for growth as a human being,

144
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 2: which I do think separates him from a lot of

145
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,840
Speaker 2: the people who came after him. Like musk Rite, he

146
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 2: does have more ability to grow than some of these

147
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 2: people have. This is not a rapid or a smooth process, though.

148
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 2: One year, Lisa's cousin Sarah came to visit her and

149
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 2: her mother. Now this was back before like Steve had

150
00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 2: re entered their lives, when they were still on welfare.

151
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 2: Her aunt Kelly had invited them in and kept a

152
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 2: roof over their head during this, Like really crucial period

153
00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,760
Speaker 2: of poverty. And so when you know Steve has a

154
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,800
Speaker 2: chance to meet with like their daughter, you might think, well,

155
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 2: maybe he'd want to be extra nice to her because

156
00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 2: like this family took care of his daughter when he

157
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 2: kind of abandoned her for a period of time. Right,

158
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 2: he seems to have been angry about this instead, and

159
00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,280
Speaker 2: not angry at himself or even angry at like Kathy,

160
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 2: Chrisanne's sister, which would have been wrong, but at least

161
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 2: more understandable than what he did, which was get incredibly

162
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 2: pissed at this small child, his daughter's cousin, who I

163
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 2: think is about seven. This everything that's happening, this is

164
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 2: he's doing this to like a first or a second

165
00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,240
Speaker 2: grade girl. So when he meets it's during this family

166
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,800
Speaker 2: dinner he's having with Chrisanne and Lisa in Stanford, and

167
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 2: Lisa describes that as soon as she sees him, she's

168
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 2: immediately aware that her father doesn't want to be here,

169
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 2: and his mood was like black soot in the air. Right,

170
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 2: That's how she describes it in her book, which is

171
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,240
Speaker 2: wonderfully evocative.

172
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,520
Speaker 6: That's what you want from you that yeah, yeah, So

173
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 6: it comes time to order dinner, and Chrisanne and Lisa

174
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 6: both avoid in a red meter poultry because they know Steve, right,

175
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 6: and they know that if we order red meter, if

176
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,680
Speaker 6: we order poultry, he'll get like shitty at us.

177
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,400
Speaker 2: Right, So they order like fish or something because I

178
00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: think he does eat fish. But Sarah, who doesn't know

179
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 2: Steve at all, this seven year very young girl, orders

180
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,280
Speaker 2: a hamburger right right. Lisa is immediately horrified. I wanted

181
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,960
Speaker 2: to muffle her to protect her and to protect myself.

182
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 2: The trick I learned later was to give him less

183
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 2: surface area to knife, so he would stab someone else,

184
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 2: always someone if not me. Now that is such a

185
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,840
Speaker 2: I live with an abuser thing to say abuse, Yeah.

186
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that is changed my habits to make sure

187
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 3: I didn't get in trouble.

188
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm always looking for who can be the

189
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,000
Speaker 2: target of their ire other than me, right, like what

190
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,520
Speaker 2: because this person is just so unpredicable child age? Yeah,

191
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,720
Speaker 2: and here's another kid. So things get more and more tense,

192
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,079
Speaker 2: you know, as they're they're waiting for the food to arrive.

193
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 2: And then the food arrives, Sarah gets this burger sat

194
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,400
Speaker 2: down in front of her, and Steve gets angrier and

195
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,680
Speaker 2: angrier at her quietly at first, until this occurs quote

196
00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 2: after we'd taken a few bites, my father's face shifted

197
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,960
Speaker 2: and tightened. What's wrong with you? He asked Sarah what

198
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,800
Speaker 2: she said She was chewing on a bite of meat. No,

199
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,599
Speaker 2: he said, really. At first, it seemed that he was

200
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,679
Speaker 2: acting her to answer him. What was wrong with her?

201
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 2: Why did she miss social cues? Why did she have

202
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 2: such a biting, high voice at the top of the register,

203
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 2: always calling for attention as acute as a baby crying?

204
00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,200
Speaker 2: His voice became high pitched and piercing. You can't even talk,

205
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,240
Speaker 2: he said. You can't even eat. You're eating shit. She

206
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,240
Speaker 2: looked at him. I could tell she was trying not

207
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 2: to cry. Have you ever thought about how awful your

208
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,680
Speaker 2: voice is? He continued, Please stop talking in that awful voice.

209
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,960
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it was happening, even as it was happening. Steve,

210
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,719
Speaker 2: stop it right now, my mother said. I could see

211
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 2: him through Sarah's eyes, or I thought I could. If

212
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,640
Speaker 2: having a father around was like this, it wasn't so great.

213
00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,839
Speaker 2: I wish I wasn't here with you, he said. I

214
00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 2: don't want to spend another moment of my life with you.

215
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,680
Speaker 2: Get yourself together, pull yourself together. He talked loud enough

216
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,959
Speaker 2: so the people at other tables could hear him. Sarah

217
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 2: slouched in her chair and looked at the table and

218
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,520
Speaker 2: began to cry. Steve, my mother said stop. You should

219
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,200
Speaker 2: really consider what's wrong with yourself and try to fix it,

220
00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 2: he said. At this point, he got up and went

221
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,360
Speaker 2: for the bathroom, leaving a small child stopping behind him.

222
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:45,200
Speaker 2: Like that is wildly hostile. He is worse than Elon Musk.

223
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:46,680
Speaker 2: He is worse than all of them.

224
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,040
Speaker 3: Steve Drugs is the most evil tech guy. I am sorry,

225
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 3: what a fucking scumbag. Jesus is rare that I am

226
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 3: shocked by sheep, but Jesus, h fuck, oh my god.

227
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,440
Speaker 2: Whatever, Like the are good people, but like, I don't

228
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 2: think Elon Musk would do that to a seven year old,

229
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:04,760
Speaker 2: Like that's even such.

230
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,920
Speaker 3: He values all fifteen of his children. Yeah, yeah, god, it's.

231
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,559
Speaker 2: Not like it'd be one thing if you were to

232
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,520
Speaker 2: tell me, like, I can imagine any of these shitty

233
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 2: tech guys like yelling snapping at a kid. I can

234
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 2: imagine most parents snapping kids because everyone does it right.

235
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 2: It's not good. But it's universal. This is not snapping

236
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,680
Speaker 2: at a kid. This is like specifically psychologically abusive, noticing

237
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 2: that she has kind of a speech impediment and like

238
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,199
Speaker 2: laying into her for that right, mocking her voice, telling

239
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 2: her to get herself together.

240
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 4: She's like, eight, this you fucking sposed to have together?

241
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 3: What is she meant to get together?

242
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a wild thing to accuse a small

243
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,680
Speaker 2: child of get your shit together.

244
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,600
Speaker 3: Can't get your shit together? What are you doing with

245
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 3: your life? Mm hmm yeah, I can't unshowered to spend

246
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 3: my time with you.

247
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my god, what a what a weird asshole?

248
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 2: So it's it's cool, like this night ends with chris

249
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 2: An and Lisa having to explain to Sarah after dinner,

250
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 2: like why why Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple worth

251
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,480
Speaker 2: a quarter of a billion dollars, was like there basically

252
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 2: had to be like, it's not your fault. He's just a.

253
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,319
Speaker 3: Dick terribly So your father's a fucking awshome.

254
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So one of the frustrations I've had when

255
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,800
Speaker 2: researching this book is that many of the other books

256
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 2: about Jobs by Isaacson and Moritz and Malone and stuff,

257
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 2: they'll describe him being verbally abusive to employees, and they'll

258
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 2: use those terms. They're not really like mincing words, but

259
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,559
Speaker 2: they don't really give a lot of detail, right, They'll

260
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 2: usually just say, like, he was shitty to someone because

261
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,320
Speaker 2: he yelled at them about this or whatever. What I

262
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,199
Speaker 2: like about Lisa's book and why I think this is

263
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,960
Speaker 2: such a useful addition to the guy the Jobs canon

264
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 2: is that this is not just somebody who like maybe

265
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 2: walked past as Steve was being shitty, or like heard

266
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 2: some stories from some other people just being like, oh, yeah,

267
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 2: you know, he could be a dick. This is like

268
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,680
Speaker 2: somebody who had both at one point was traumatized by him,

269
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 2: but also has grown up enough that they are able

270
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,840
Speaker 2: to contextualize and put in pretty unsparing detail how he

271
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 2: treated people around him. Right, It's not just sort of

272
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 2: like a recollection of a horrible thing he did. It's

273
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,000
Speaker 2: somebody who knew him for a long time and has

274
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 2: enough distance from that from her childhood to like contextualize

275
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,760
Speaker 2: his behavior. And I value it a lot for that.

276
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,480
Speaker 3: You know what, I remember when Steve Jobs died. I

277
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,400
Speaker 3: remember the death. I remember reading these things like oh

278
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,560
Speaker 3: Malek who ran a cycled Gigo home at the time,

279
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 3: these teary fucking things about this great man who died.

280
00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,719
Speaker 3: I just think the entire tech industry needs to have

281
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,360
Speaker 3: a fucking referendum on this guy. This is monstrous.

282
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 2: He's such a bad man.

283
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 3: He's such a horrifying creep. It's one thing to it's

284
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,439
Speaker 3: he screamed at the mobile me people. We know that one.

285
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 3: He's screamed he fired people in the elevators. And I'm

286
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 3: sure you've got so much worse to share, But this

287
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 3: is horrifying.

288
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 2: This isn't just.

289
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,960
Speaker 3: This isn't just. It's one thing yelling at a grown

290
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 3: as man. It's another thing excoriating a child for their

291
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 3: lack of eloquence or at all h for anything, even

292
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,079
Speaker 3: if they did something wrong. You don't yell at children.

293
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it like it'd be one thing if like

294
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,360
Speaker 2: she had broken something and he'd flip. That's still really wrong.

295
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,920
Speaker 2: But at least there was like there was like a

296
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 2: thing that was that you can say had caused a problem,

297
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 2: right as opposed to like, yes, a fucking eight year

298
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,800
Speaker 2: old girl ordered a hamburger, Dude, you can't expect her

299
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 2: to have read the Weird Mucus book. You read had

300
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 2: come to all the same conclusions.

301
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,720
Speaker 3: Oh my god, keep going.

302
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm just yeah. So I think it's interesting. It's

303
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 2: useful to study this book because of what it says

304
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 2: about how Jobs treated people around him. Wosniak is again,

305
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,520
Speaker 2: he's kind of the only guy who has a partial

306
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 2: immunity to any of this. And that's largely possible because

307
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,200
Speaker 2: Jobs in Wosniak. After the company has its IPO, they're

308
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,920
Speaker 2: gonna have relative little to do with each other, right

309
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 2: they are in Neither of them is running the company.

310
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 2: They are both founders. They both have a lot of stock,

311
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 2: and I think Steve is chairman of the of the board.

312
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 2: He's got like a significant position as a result of

313
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 2: how much stock that he owns. But they're just kind

314
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 2: of like managing different chunks of the company. Wosniac stays

315
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 2: with the Apple two. Right, that is the thing that

316
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 2: is sustaining Apple's growth. That's nearly all of Apple's money

317
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 2: up through the early nineties comes from the Apple too.

318
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 2: They don't stop selling this thing until nineteen ninety three,

319
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 2: so this is this is around forever. And they're not

320
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 2: just selling the same product, right, they're upgrading it. They're

321
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 2: adding you know, different expansions, they're adding chips, they're i

322
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 2: think at one point up Grady the processor. So they

323
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 2: are like continually improving the Apple too. This is like

324
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 2: a real important job. Wosniak is kind of for a

325
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 2: while at least the point man on a lot of

326
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 2: that stuff. And this continues to be why Apple has money. Right,

327
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 2: everything we're going to talk about with Steve has nothing

328
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 2: to do with the Apple too. From this point forward,

329
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 2: it's importantly that you understand what's actually funding everything Steve

330
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 2: is doing right now is Wosney Ax, not just his invention,

331
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 2: but his like continuing maintenance of that invention. But Jobs

332
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 2: hates the Apple too, and the reason for this is simple,

333
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 2: he didn't make the fucker right, and the fact that

334
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 2: the Apple everyone who knows, like everyone who knows anything,

335
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 2: Jobs had no like, didn't have enough control over reality.

336
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 2: When Apple is starting off, everyone knows it's Wosney as baby, right.

337
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 2: People I think generally respect Steve for his vision, him

338
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,400
Speaker 2: being good at putting people together and all that kind

339
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 2: of stuff is that sort of thing. But the Waws

340
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 2: is the genius here. And it's also pretty well known that,

341
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 2: like the Apple, Too is successful in part because Wosniak

342
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 2: wins the argument over how many expansion slots to have,

343
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,480
Speaker 2: and that's a thing that Steve was wrong about. So,

344
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 2: for the sake of his ego, Jobs is going to

345
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 2: spend the next decade and change throwing himself into every

346
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 2: project that is not the Apple Too Right. And the

347
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: first one of these projects is the creatively named Apple three.

348
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,919
Speaker 2: It was set to be a groundbreaking computer capable of

349
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 2: displaying This shows you how primitive shit is. One of

350
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,119
Speaker 2: the big selling points in the Apple three is it

351
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,919
Speaker 2: can display both upper case and lower case letters like

352
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 2: we finally got it, guys, both council letters. Oh yeah, baby,

353
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 2: yeah it really. Uh, it's remarkable how much better these

354
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 2: things have gotten and how much worse a lot of

355
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,040
Speaker 2: other stuff has. But I don't need to get all

356
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,439
Speaker 2: but Larry and g hot on you. Although it's appropriate

357
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,680
Speaker 2: now that that we're on Doune week as these episodes

358
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,040
Speaker 2: are being recorded.

359
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 3: So do the podcast.

360
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah fine, find a thinking machine, kids, and uh, you know,

361
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 2: do it. Look up whatever they did on Dune and

362
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 2: then do that. I can't be held legally responsible if

363
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 2: I tell you to do it together. Dune to the

364
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 2: thinking machines. Yeah, Google, Google Dune. Someone's going to sue

365
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 2: us for reading all of the Dune books. And while

366
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 2: they do that, you guys go listen to these ads.

367
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,959
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we're back, and I'm I'm just in

368
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 2: awe of that ad transition. It's the first Frank Herbert

369
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: themed one I've done, but I think I'm gonna try

370
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 2: it again. So yeah, we're at the Apple three. So

371
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 2: Wozniak is safely close to it away keeping the company profitable,

372
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 2: and Jobs is taking control of the Apple three project,

373
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 2: and he lays out a design one of the things

374
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: because this is his project, Like the Waws is not

375
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 2: in the room, so there's nobody who he has to

376
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,879
Speaker 2: like take seriously, he can just sort of dictate. He's like,

377
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 2: we're going to design the case before we actually build

378
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 2: the computer. Like I want to design this perfect case

379
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 2: that like right, and then you build a computer around it.

380
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 3: The thing that needs to be dictated by the actual stuff,

381
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,919
Speaker 3: We'll design that first.

382
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is a problem, right, because

383
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 2: Job does not really know how to design a computer,

384
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,679
Speaker 2: and this says a lot about him. His attitude is

385
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 2: we can figure out the internals later because What matters

386
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,400
Speaker 2: is how the fucking thing looks right on your tea

387
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,959
Speaker 2: meaning someone else, we meaning this team of people. I'm

388
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,160
Speaker 2: gonna scream at all day to no surprise. This does

389
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 2: not make a great computer. It is. They do eventually

390
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: do some updates to it that it does kind of

391
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,879
Speaker 2: like grab find some niche uses, but it is not

392
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 2: immediately successful. Particularly next to the Apple Too Right, Isaacson

393
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 2: includes a lovely quote from an Apple engineer who struggled

394
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: against Jobs on the project. This is one of the

395
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 2: people he's like verbally abusing at elevators. Quote the Apple

396
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 2: three was kind of like a baby conceived during a

397
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 2: group orgy and later everybody had this bad headache and

398
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 2: there's this bastard child, and everyone says, it's not mine.

399
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,879
Speaker 2: And I think the funniest thing about that is the lie, sorry,

400
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,360
Speaker 2: it's not mine. And I that's, like, first off, an

401
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: extremely Silicon Valley way to describe a project. Like it's

402
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 2: funny to me because of like the way this guy

403
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 2: is describing Apple three is how Steve Jobs treated his

404
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 2: actual child, right conceiving her and then denying the g

405
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: entity responsibility for her. Jesus Christ, that's going to be

406
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 2: extra ironic here in a second, So right around the

407
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 2: time this is not that point, but it's coming right

408
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 2: around the time the Apple three fails. Steve Wozniak is

409
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,679
Speaker 2: in this horrible plane accident. He makes the worst mistake

410
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 2: you can as a rich guy, and he gets into airplanes.

411
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 2: That always ends badly, Like folks take it for if

412
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 2: you suddenly make one hundred million dollars and you've always

413
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 2: wanted to fly a plane, that is going to be

414
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: how you'll die. Like you're not Harrison Ford. You're not

415
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 2: going to bounce back like a Jelloman.

416
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 4: Avoid helicopter.

417
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 2: Avoid helicopters as well. Wosniak is not Harrison Ford. He

418
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: does not bounce back right away. It messes him up,

419
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 2: and he's he's basically out of the picture for five years.

420
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,159
Speaker 2: And it's not coincidentally kind of when this character of

421
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: the company's founding bounces that the character of Apple is

422
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 2: also kind of undergoing a change. Wozniak being out of

423
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 2: the picture for a while isn't the only thing, but

424
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: it's kind of a sign of the times. Some of

425
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 2: this comes down to the fact that CEO Michael Scott

426
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 2: is like he's obsessed with trying to like be the

427
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 2: adult in the room and take the company like in

428
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: a more responsible direction. We needed these like hippie hacker

429
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: kids when we were getting off the door. But now

430
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 2: it's time to become like a traditional corporation. Jobs had

431
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 2: always patterned Apple off of HP and as someone who's

432
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 2: interested in tech in the modern day. It's so weird

433
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 2: that they used to be like the sexy hip tech company.

434
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 3: Well, but they also made their money quite boringly. Yes,

435
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 3: and they have one of the old time loses, see

436
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 3: as Meg Whitman.

437
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have had an interesting journey since the time

438
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: where Jobs is like idolizing them, but he does in

439
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 2: this period of time. And so the fact that tech

440
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 2: is kind of made in the image of aerospace and

441
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: these early like you know, government contractors, means that like

442
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 2: they're not these guys are not being used to being

443
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: seen as disposable for the sake of a stock price. Right.

444
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 2: Their dads really hadn't been and most of their dads,

445
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: like Wosniak, come out of this this aerospace world. So

446
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 2: they're all very shocked when suddenly Apple starts acting like

447
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: companies are increasingly going to act in the eighties and

448
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: is like, hey, what if we lay off a bunch

449
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: of people in order to pump the stock price? Right?

450
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 2: This is particularly surprising because it happens just a couple

451
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 2: of months after the IPO and it comes to be

452
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 2: known in company law as black Wednesday. Now, this is

453
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: a Michael Scott production. Jobs is just a manager there,

454
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: but he is a major stockholder, and he chose not

455
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 2: to take any action to try to stop the layoffs,

456
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: and in fact he's signed off on them. When a

457
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: long time colleagues, here's what's happening, and like, tell Steve,

458
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: this is no way to run a company. Steve responds acidly,

459
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: how do you run a company? It's like, I don't know, man,

460
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: maybe not firing everybody immediately after they make you two

461
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million dollars.

462
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: My coping mechanism here is thinking that it's Steve Jobs

463
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: dealing with actual Steve Carell from the office as Michael Scott,

464
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 1: and that helps that this.

465
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: Helps, so for a while, he flits from idea Steve.

466
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 2: After the Apple three, he kind of flits from idea

467
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 2: to idea. At first, he thinks touch screens are the future, right,

468
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: which is that's interesting that like in nineteen eighty one. Yes,

469
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, he really is, like he's ahead of

470
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: the curve on a lot of stuff. He has some legitimate,

471
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 2: like insight. The problem is that like I don't know

472
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 2: if you ever try to use a touch screen, mean

473
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: like nineteen ninety five, fourteen years after this, but shit, yeah,

474
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 2: that's like, yeah, they were horrible. It's because they were

475
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 2: I think, resistive instead of capacity. But they also just

476
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 2: like the tech was bad. And so he brings in

477
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: a bunch of Apple engineers and is like, tell me

478
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 2: about touch screens. I think this might be the future.

479
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: And it's immediately clear to him. I only he understands why,

480
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: but based on what they're saying, it's very clear that

481
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: like touchscreens are not a reasonable thing for us to

482
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 2: be trying to put into a consumer product right now.

483
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 2: And he the guys who are there like tell him,

484
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: we were like made to prepare all this info, and

485
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: he immediately checked out of the conversation and then just

486
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: started like yellow asked for bringing him in convenient information.

487
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: People on in the subreddit or there were a couple

488
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 2: of people who were like, well, I don't think it's

489
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: bad to like cry when you're sad, and I agree

490
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 2: with you on that's what's I think it's worth shit

491
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: talking Steve for is he's really mean to people just

492
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: by default. Whenever he is a disagreement, whenever they bring

493
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 2: him bad news, and then whenever anyone challenges him on

494
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: anything in a meeting, he starts crying. And that's like

495
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 2: it's manipulative. That is also kind of an abusive tactic, right,

496
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: And someone made.

497
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: A good point where it's like there are neurodivergent people

498
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: who do cry, and like this is very much not that.

499
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 2: No, it was not crying.

500
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is manipulative, very very different. And also if

501
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 3: he met a neurodivergent person, he would make them cry.

502
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 3: He would do so to prove they were weak. Like

503
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: that's who he was. He was not Steve Jobs, was

504
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 3: not someone who would ever show anyone else any kindness.

505
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: So no, and also he definitely didn't cry because he

506
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 3: was sad. He cried because he was annoyed and wanted

507
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 3: someone to do something.

508
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's he doesn't know how to deal with

509
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: being told no with any on anything, because I mean,

510
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: his life has been one long show of people telling

511
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: him yes. And in fact, Lisa's later going to kind

512
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: of theorize, I think that part of why he was

513
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: so angry about me for a while is that, like

514
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: I was this this single piece of evidence against his perfection, right,

515
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 2: that he had slipped up, and he just like couldn't

516
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: forgive her for.

517
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 3: That, and that he couldn't tell her no.

518
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fucked up. So after kind of this like

519
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 2: soul searching moment, going through a bunch of technologies, Jobs

520
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: goes back and is like, you know what, we're just

521
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: going to make another personal computer, but this one's going

522
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: to be better. This one's not going to be like

523
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: the Apple three. This is going to be the next

524
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: Apple two. We finally cracked the code and we need

525
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 2: to throw all of our resources into this project. And

526
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: he names this project the Lisa. Now, the immediate question

527
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: one would have here is like did he name this

528
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: computer after his daughter? And the answer, which Job's ultimately

529
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: cop to, is obviously yes, right, obviously, yes he has

530
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 2: a daughter named Lisa. And then a few years later

531
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: he names a computer he's working on the Lisa.

532
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 3: Of course like that, but he acknowledges this one.

533
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: Well, not as yeah, he does acknowledge the computer or

534
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 2: at least for a while. It's not going to go well.

535
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: The lease is about as doomed as the Apple three.

536
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it's a little bit more successful, but

537
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: it's still not what Apple needs, right, And he does

538
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: eventually abandon this, like he abandons his daughter, and he

539
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: starts having like caught like conflicts within the Apple three

540
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: team basically, And so he finds another personal computer project

541
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: at Apple. And the fact that there are so many

542
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: of these projects going on is probably evidence that like

543
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: there's not enough good direction coming in that you've got

544
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: like multiple separate next generation PC teams that wind up

545
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: fighting each other for resources, right, And so he comes

546
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: into this this computer's what's being set as like this

547
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: is going to be a personal computer for the masses.

548
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: We're going to produce a cheap, simple PC that anyone

549
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: can use off the shelf. Right. That is the idea

550
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: behind what becomes known as the Macintosh. And the guy

551
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 2: who's like running this team is like a really well

552
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 2: respected major engineer at Apple, and Steve like forces him

553
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: off the team, and in order to take control of it,

554
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: he's kind of shitty to the guy. He basically like

555
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 2: burns his name a little bit to get him off

556
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: of this project. And then once he's off the Lisa

557
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 2: team and he's now heading the Macintosh team, he treats

558
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: it exactly like he had treated Chris Anne. Like he's

559
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: publicly insults it. He belittles his former these people who

560
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: just put on his team. He's like, yeah, the Lisa

561
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 2: team were all assholes. They're all like dipshits. They're wasting

562
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: all of our money. We should cut the project. Like

563
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: he immediately abandons and betrays his old team while like

564
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: now showering blessings on the new team. It's very much

565
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 2: the same as how he treats like the people in

566
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: his life. So I guess at least he's consistent.

567
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: So this is very much against the whole mythos of

568
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: him being this master operator manager.

569
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, this is.

570
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: This is actually early days startup bullshit. Yeah, just running

571
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 3: burning eight fires, killing things based on how upset you are.

572
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and lighting like he's part of why the Lisa

573
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 2: doesn't Like he costs the company a lot of money

574
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: by like specifically fucking over the Lisa team this way,

575
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: and the Macintosh is going to do a lot better

576
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: than the Lisa had, but it's still not nearly we'll

577
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: talk about this not nearly as successful as they had

578
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: planned on it being. And while he is lighting all

579
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: of this money on fire and these really petty squabbles

580
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 2: to like make a thing that finally is as good

581
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: as the Apple Too, the Apple Too is continuing to

582
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: sell like a motherfucker, right, Like all of Apple is

583
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: built on this machine that he hates and is angry at,

584
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: while he is like fighting wars with his co workers

585
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: in order to try to get to make it.

586
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: No one give some credit for either. Now everyone knows

587
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: this was everyone.

588
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: Likes was yeah, yeah, exactly, And that is what establishes.

589
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: You have to understand here. You know, when I say Macintosh,

590
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: you could do the oh wow, this is the moment.

591
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: But like the Macintosh really ain't shit for a while.

592
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: It takes a spell for it to become like a

593
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: popular product. All of Apple's early reputation and all of

594
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: this like cultural weight that it accumulates prior to the era.

595
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: You know, when jobs comes back is due to the

596
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: Apple Too, Like that's the fucking thing, you know. But

597
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: Steve hates the Apple Too, and he also now hates

598
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: the Lisa. In the book Infinite Loop, Malone writes quote,

599
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs no longer cared about the two. He publicly

600
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: derided it, saying the two group was the doll and

601
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: boring division, that it had shitty ideas, and calling its

602
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: engineers Clydesdale's because they were little more than dull draft horses.

603
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: Even worse. Jobs undermine sales by broadly hinting to the

604
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: world that once the MAC arrived on the scene, the

605
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: two would be obsolete. So he looks at this cash

606
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: cow that's still making them a fortune and is like, hey, everybody,

607
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: you're gonna want to stop buying this thing in a while.

608
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: This new thing coming up. These guys are all drug addicts.

609
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: An idiot is morns.

610
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: It is so. It is so that guy that like

611
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: everything you have is built on the back of this computer.

612
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: Steve don't treat it like and he and he and

613
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: Wosniak are gonna have like a conflict because at the

614
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: Apple two keeps getting left out at like these big

615
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: corporate events. He'll do when he'll talk to about the

616
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: other teams, and the Wosneak's like it makes all of

617
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: our money, as he should. Yeah, and the evening is

618
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: not just jobs too, because I think Wosney is gonna

619
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: leave over this in part, and like there are other

620
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: like it's the Jobs is not the only guy at

621
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: the company who has like I can't wait for the

622
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: next thing, not the thing that works brain right to

623
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: the extent that they damage the company. Right, obviously, you

624
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: always got to be looking for the next thing. But

625
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: to like jettison your cash cow over it is just

626
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: so Again it's evidence against like the idea that he

627
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: was always this like flawless business.

628
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 3: Mind you exactly the thing to put his money in

629
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: that you a safe bat.

630
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: No and a big non yeah. A big part of

631
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: like why he does the things he does later is

632
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: he causes a lot of failures through his arrogance. He

633
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: does learn from some of them, which again maybe makes

634
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: him puts a step beyond a number of these other guys,

635
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: but like, these are some pretty major mistakes. And Job

636
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: also continues to be fucking impossible to work with due

637
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: to his personal quirks, which put an unreasonable burden on

638
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: everyone around him. From Isaacson's book quote, there was also

639
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: the issue of his hygiene. He was still convinced against

640
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: all evidence, that his vegan diets meant he didn't need

641
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: to use deodorant or take regular showers. We would have

642
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: to literally put him out the door and tell him

643
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: to go take a shower, said Markola. At meetings we

644
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: had to look at his dirty feet. Sometimes to relieve stress,

645
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: he would soak his feet in the toilet, a practice

646
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: that was not as soothing for his colleagues.

647
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 7: What and where I'm back to like a logistically, Some

648
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 7: logistically is he's staying on top of it with his

649
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 7: fate in that h I think he's standing.

650
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: He gets a shoe off and puts his foot in

651
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: the toilet. I don't know Spender does in one of

652
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: the movies. No, I think he would just dip it.

653
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: But I am basically off of Hollywood magic, because you

654
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: can get this day, you could get. I will say

655
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: the more I don't know. You know, I actually go

656
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: back and forth because I wanted to say. It'd be

657
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: one thing if he like had built a fancy like

658
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: spa footpath and just held meetings there. But you know what,

659
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: I don't think that's good. That's bougie, Sophie. This is respectable.

660
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: Sticking your foot in the toilet or using a twenty

661
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: dollars Amazon and trying to hide it on a recording

662
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: from Sophie.

663
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 4: Both of those things.

664
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: I'm just saying Steve and I are Mavericks baby that

665
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: just happened. Yeah, I'm gonna play that Jeep Renegade commercial

666
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: again and rock out. Wow.

667
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we broke and close fucking free. I'm

668
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: sorry he's still dealing with that, but he's so rich

669
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: as well.

670
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: You don't have to use a toilet as a footback steak.

671
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 3: There's a sink. There's a sink in the same room.

672
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess, I guess where I've come around to is.

673
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: I think that part's funny. Oh, it's very funny. It's

674
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: a nice break from mentally abusing a child.

675
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: You wouldn't think it's funny. Foot massage podcast.

676
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: Or Yeah, I'm gonna get a massage chair Sophie and

677
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start one of those as MR podcasts where

678
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: it's just the sound of the massage chair as I

679
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: get a massage. We're gonna make twelve million in the toilet?

680
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what's that? Dan will just quit?

681
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: Sorry. So The Lisa debuts to pretty disappointing sales about

682
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: a year before The MAC is scheduled to have its release,

683
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: and we'll Jobs threw himself into this project. He remained

684
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: only an occasional presence in the life of his daughter.

685
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 2: She recalls being utterly bold over when her mother told

686
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: her Jobs had launched a computer project named the Lisa.

687
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: She saw this as proof that her dad really loved her. Now,

688
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: Steve could not admit that he loved his daughter. He's

689
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: back in her life at this point, but that would

690
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: have been like, that would have been like acknowledging she

691
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: was his and that she deserved a place in his heart,

692
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: and that is just not a thing he was ready

693
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: to do at that point. So whenever she'd ask him,

694
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: he'd be like, no, sorry, it's not named after you.

695
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: Just a coincidence. I named a computer after my daughter.

696
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 2: Has nothing to do with you. Sorry, get big Simpson's head. Yeah.

697
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: And several times when he's asked at like he'll like

698
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 2: take her his daughter to a party. When he starts

699
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: acknowledging her more, He'll go to an event and people

700
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 2: will ask him like, oh, that's Lisa. Is that who

701
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: you name the computer after? And he'd be like, fuck, no,

702
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: absolutely not in front of this little girl. Regis McKenna,

703
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 2: who's an Apple employee, who works on the Lisa project

704
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: in the early days when Jobs is in charge of it,

705
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: tells Isaacson, we had to come up with an acronym

706
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: so that we could claim it was not named after

707
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: Lisa the child, and the eventual acronym they pick for

708
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: Lisa was Local Integrated Systems Architecture. This does not mean anything,

709
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 2: like this guy is like not only is he like

710
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: lying to his daughter and his friends, but like he

711
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: made us come up with an acronym for Lisa demeans.

712
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 3: So that he was so dedicated to his kid.

713
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has a team of men to help him

714
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: not be there for his kids.

715
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: He's diverting company resources to help otaize his child.

716
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: It's it's pretty funny. I mean, it would be devastating

717
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: to be that kid, but it's pretty funny now, I

718
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: guess or not. One of the two engineers on the

719
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: project would joke that Lisa stood for Lisa invented stupid acronym,

720
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: which is also a bad acronym because you're not supposed

721
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 2: to have the name of the acronym in the acronym.

722
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: But beggars can't be choosers here, right, Like.

723
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 4: Shut the fuck up toilet feet, like.

724
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: Stinky toilet free.

725
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: Such a shitty thing to do. And we're gonna get

726
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: to the conclusion of this story, which, to everyone's surprise, includes,

727
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: well it includes Bono, but we're building to that. So

728
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: what became the Macintosh had started? Bono? Yeah, Bono's Bono's

729
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 2: gonna be in play later, Sophie.

730
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 3: Does this have to do with when they say not

731
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: another acronym?

732
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: No better off? Not around around? I could make it work,

733
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 2: might agree.

734
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm mad when they violated all our phones by putting

735
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: that You two album on them without our consent?

736
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 4: Does it have to do with that?

737
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 3: It's so funny.

738
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: I do think it would now be really funny if

739
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 2: some like powerful hacking group started putting copies of a

740
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: YouTube album in people's hard drives, Like if that was

741
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: just this mystery for a while, everyone woke up with

742
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: it and they all blame Apple. How did you get

743
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: this on my PC? You souns of bitches? I don't know.

744
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe listen in Russia. That's how you can really

745
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 2: fuck with us through a U two CD on the

746
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: on the do od's hard drive.

747
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 4: You're in rare form today.

748
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 7: It's thank you, It's great.

749
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: I'm really feeling. I'm feeling the power of the spirit

750
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 2: moves through the spirit of jobs. I also have only

751
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: nineteen minutes left on my memory cards. So we are

752
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: in gonna be a gonna be a baller baller run

753
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: through the rest of this episode here. So, the Macintosh

754
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: had started as the project of this former professor named

755
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: Jeff Raskin. Jeff wanted to create a computer for the masses,

756
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: and he saw it as like an appliance, like you'd

757
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: buy like any other appliance. Right, some mom would go

758
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: down to a store and just like you'd pick up

759
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: a fucking what is an appliance, sophie What.

760
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 4: Is an appliant you're talking about?

761
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: I have too miserable hammer and a gun, right, that's

762
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: all I need.

763
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 4: A dishwasher, a dishwasher.

764
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: It's like buying a dishwasher. That's what they want the

765
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: Macintosh to be, right. And the downside of this idea

766
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 2: is that, like, you can't make a sexy computer that's

767
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: like a dishwasher, right, because dishwashers are inherently not very

768
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 2: s not really, Sophiella, you can't make a dishwasher be sexy, right.

769
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: And Raskin's idea, which I think is probably, I mean,

770
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 2: obviously it's good. It's what all computing winds up being

771
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 2: based around.

772
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 4: As somebody who likes things clean.

773
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: Disagree, Sure, Sophie, to just break your dishes when you're

774
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: done with them. So Raskin is like, I think we

775
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: should have like a cheap, accessible machine anyone can use,

776
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 2: and Jobs is like, sure, but I want to throw

777
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,479
Speaker 2: all this sexy bullshit in there. So he forces Raskin out.

778
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: And one of the harms this is going to do

779
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 2: for Apple is Raskin had been like one of Apple's

780
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: better engineers, and he like pushes him out in order

781
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: to steal the Macintosh project and then like fuck it up.

782
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: So that's really cool. Raskin's vision of what customers wanted

783
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: in a computer had been pretty astute, and Jobs mostly

784
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: rejected it. Right, He's going to understand elements of this

785
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 2: in the future, but he has a different idea about

786
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: like what he wants from this, and a lot of

787
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 2: it's based on this visit he takes to the labs

788
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: of Xerox, who have invested in Apple. Xerox engineers had

789
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 2: built the first graphical operating system, right, it has the

790
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: first what's called like a graphical user interface. That's what

791
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: everything has. We just call it a UY today, right,

792
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 2: because it's just the only way shit works pretty much.

793
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 2: But back then, it's like the Xerox skunk Works project

794
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: and Jobs falls in love with it and steals a

795
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: lot of it for what becomes the Mac. Hey, everyone,

796
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: Robert here, the Lisa was actually the first mass market

797
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: computer with a graphical user interface. Obviously, it's a little

798
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: muddled because Jobs is on the Lisa and then he

799
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: hops over halfway onto the Mac, which is also an

800
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: early guy computer. I just wouldn't make that clear. It's

801
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: also worth noting that, like Bill Gates sees basically the

802
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: same demo, and like they also take a lot from

803
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 2: Xerox in order to make what becomes Windows. Everybody's kind er. Yeah,

804
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 2: everywhere everyone copied Xerox. Yeah, that is funny. It's really

805
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: funny because it seems to be universally agreed that, like,

806
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: you could be pissed off at Bill and Steve for this,

807
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: but Xerox like absolutely, like fiercely rejected the idea that

808
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 2: they should do anything new or exciting, Like they had

809
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: this brilliant idea that defined the future of computing and

810
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 2: We're like, we are absolutely never going to funny people

811
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: never stop making copies. So Jobs, it is funny though

812
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: that Jobs is like livid at Gates for stealing from Xerox,

813
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: even though like it's like it's like being angry at

814
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: a bank robber who steals from the same bank, Like

815
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: you said, up a bit, I robbed them. Yeah. So

816
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 2: Jobs is very excited about what he thinks the mac

817
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 2: is going to mean for the future of computing. And

818
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 2: as he's like stacking all these new requirements on and

819
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: it makes the processor balloon. That makes it basically it

820
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: like triples in price. Effectively, it turns into a premium machine.

821
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 2: And some people are like, hey, maybe this is going

822
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: to be too expensive to sell a lot of these things.

823
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: The Apple too is like a common man's computer, and

824
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: what you're building is not. He kind of would like

825
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: paper over that with these like lavishing praise to the

826
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: Macintosh team about like you guys are building the future,

827
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: that we're the only force that can stop IBM. If

828
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 2: IBM takes over the personal computer market totally, you know

829
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: that it's going to like clamp down on all of

830
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: mankind's future. It's going to be a boot on the

831
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: human face, like you guys are freedom fighters making like

832
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: what becomes a twenty six hundred dollars machine something like that,

833
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 2: which is an insane that's like not cheap now, it's

834
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: like an insane amount of money at the time. And

835
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: obviously Jobs is also governing Apple in his heartless and

836
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: brutal a fashion, as like anyone at IBM does anything.

837
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: But he's good at selling this vision to the team, right,

838
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: He's even good at selling it to like some cutthroat

839
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: businessman who should have known better. And this is where

840
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 2: we get jobs at his cult leaderist, right, this is

841
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: where we really see his quality. It's not going to

842
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: work out as well now as it will in the future,

843
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: but his ability to people call it a reality distortion

844
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: field because he was legitimately around for the creation of

845
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: some great products that actually changed the world. But like

846
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: when anyone else does this, we just call them a

847
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 2: cult leader, Like, yeah, this man came in and sold

848
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: people a fanciful view of reality in order to get

849
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: stuff out of them. Well, that's a cult leader or

850
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: a con man, right, same diff up to a certain point, right,

851
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: And the best vision we get of how this process occurred,

852
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: how Jobs would kind of enrapture somebody in his personal

853
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: vision of himself in the future is the story of

854
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 2: John Scully. John is going to become the CEO of Apple.

855
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: He's head hunted at Steve Jobs's request. Jobs wanted a

856
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: and one of the reasons why Jobs goes after Scully

857
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: Scully is a marketer, right, he is the most famous

858
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: marketer of his day. He had come up through Pepsi

859
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: and he had gotten like this job. He basically been

860
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: put in charge of like sales in the in what

861
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: becomes the EU, I think at this point, and he

862
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 2: completely revitalizes the business. Right. Pepsi is like barely exists

863
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: in Europe, and he makes it popular there. Right, he increases,

864
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 2: He turns them from a vision that's losing a bunch

865
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: of money to the one that's making a bunch of money.

866
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 2: And because of this he gets like he basically becomes

867
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: chief marketer of the entire company. And he launches this

868
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: thing called the Pepsi Challenge. Some like the old people

869
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: in the audience are like screaming, now it's a pervert

870
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: strinth that tastes terrible. It is a pervert strink, which

871
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: is why I love it. I'm a doctor pepper Man.

872
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: Legally I have to be you. I like PEPSI. I

873
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: don't hate pepsi, Sophie. I like all poison. I f

874
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 2: I said, Look, I support other people doing methamphetamine too,

875
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, I don't. I don't. You know, I don't

876
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 2: have a problem with anything cigarettes, you know, Rick and I.

877
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: And that's all good. Baby turpentine. Sure, why not drink

878
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: some turpentine. It's all a substance. Putting substances inside you

879
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: and see what happens.

880
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: You know.

881
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 2: That's that's my advice to the listener Personally, I think

882
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: you should get back to the script before you're before

883
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: you're at dcartist full Robert, Oh, yeah, we're we are

884
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: at twelve minutes forty four seconds. Maybe Daniel can throw

885
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: in like the twenty four ticking, you know, from that.

886
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 8: Show John Scully.

887
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: So this guy John Scully comes up with a pepsi

888
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: challenge and it causes like the soda wars are this thing.

889
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: People don't really talk about it now, but like this

890
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: was like the big corporate conflict of its day, and

891
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: this led to like Pepsi's largest continued period of like

892
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: dominance over Coca Cola or at least relative to like

893
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: the way things had been. And this is why Jobs

894
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: wants Scully right. For one thing, he looks at IBM

895
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: and Coca Cola as very similar and he wants to

896
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: dethrone IBM, which is the giant in his space. And

897
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: he sees Apple is a lot like Pepsi, right, which

898
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: says a lot again about that kind of like rebel

899
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: image he's trying to craft for Apple computers that like, well,

900
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you're not like some

901
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: rebel alliance, you're Pepsi, right, You're literally Pepsi. You even

902
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: brought the Pepsi guy in. But he also wants Scully

903
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: in there because Jobs think soon he'll be ready to

904
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: be the CEO, but he knows he's still not ready yet.

905
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 2: It's this weird little bit of like humility you get

906
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: from him, and he's like, I want a marketer because

907
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: I think I have more to learn from my marketer, right.

908
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: And one of the things this says is that like

909
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: Jobs is for all that he pretends to be this

910
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: like enlightened creative thinker, He is a guy who identifies

911
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: with the marketers and the finance dudes and a lot

912
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: of these like, but in terms of like what they're

913
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: actually doing, these are the people that he is a

914
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: lot more like when it comes to his actual behavior, right.

915
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 2: And it's also him being very conventional because this period.

916
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: A big thing that's happening to a lot of American

917
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: corporations in this period, like kind of the fad of

918
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: the day is marketers are being put in charge of

919
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: a lot of these massive companies because there's this increasing

920
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: belief that is the CEO is basically the chief salesman, right,

921
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: and pulling for Scully is jobs really buying into that

922
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 2: very conventional wisdom to a substantial extent. And it's a

923
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: terrible misjudgment. These are not the same industries, right. The

924
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: idea that you'd be like, well, coke and Pepsi, that's

925
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: like IBM and Apple. It doesn't really work because coke

926
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 2: and Pepsi were both very old companies, right, and from

927
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: the time that like soda became a universally consumed beverage

928
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 2: in American culture, the industry didn't shift. Right. If it

929
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: moved one percent in cocer Pepsi's favor, that's a huge

930
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: deal at the time. It's also very different from computers

931
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: because it's easy to sell people a so you can

932
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: buy a soda for pocket change. You can't purchase a

933
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: two or twenty five hundred dollars Macintosh computer on a whim. Right,

934
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 2: they're not the same kinds of like ass.

935
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: And that was probably worth much more in the day, right.

936
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, a lot more. And it's also like most

937
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: clients are still corporate clients, So you're not just saying, like, hey,

938
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 2: why don't you try a pepsi today at lunch instead

939
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: of a coke? That's easy. You're saying, hey, why don't

940
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 2: you consend her spending millions of dollars to completely replace

941
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: your company's IT infrastructure with Apple? Right, they're very different asks, right,

942
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 2: But Jobs had sold himself on Scully and he wouldn't

943
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: take no for an answer. And Scully himself is not

944
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 2: sure he wants to do this. He's like, I don't

945
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: know tech, why am I getting?

946
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: You know?

947
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: Why would I take this risk? And Jobs just keeps

948
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: he love bombs him.

949
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: Right.

950
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: Not only is he calling constantly, he like flies to

951
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 2: New York pretending to look for a real estate so

952
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: he can like spend more time with the guy. He's like, hey,

953
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 2: can you give me some advice buying an apartment. Yeah,

954
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: it could be in a different man. And I'm going

955
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: to quote from the book Infinite Loop here. It was

956
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: a Sunday afternoon, so the visit began at Scully's exquisite

957
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: modern home in Greenwich. Jobs toured the ground, met Leezy Scully,

958
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: which I guess is his wife, and the pair retired

959
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: to the library to talk. Why are you talking to me,

960
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: Scully asked, why don't you go talk to somebody at

961
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: IBM or Culett Packard. Why do you want somebody out

962
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: of the soft drink at drink industry. I don't know

963
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 2: anything about computers. A lot of people would ask the

964
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: same question in the years to come. In reply, Jobs said,

965
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 2: what we're doing is never been done before. We're trying

966
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: to build a totally different kind of company, and we

967
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 2: need really great people. My dream is that every person

968
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: in the world will have their own Apple computer. To

969
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: do that, we've got to be a great marketing company.

970
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: And it's this does show you a little bit of

971
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: the reality of distortion effect. Maybe that washed over you,

972
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: maybe it didn't, But he starts that by saying we're

973
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: going to be a completely different company, and the end

974
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: thought is by hiring a Marketer as our CEO, like everyone.

975
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 3: Else, the thing that everyone is doing.

976
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, think that everybody's doing different. Yeah, but I think

977
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: it works on a guy like Scully, Right, it's going

978
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: to work on somebody who's maybe a little bit on

979
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 2: the way to being a narcissist like you often have

980
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: to be to succeed at that level in business. And

981
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: Jobs is telling him what he wants to hear, whateveryone

982
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: wants to hear, which is, you can change the world

983
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: for the better by doing exactly what you're doing right now. Right,

984
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: That's what everybody wants, and Jobs knows that. Right. It's

985
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: why people can be convinced that like just tweeting anger

986
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: at some dude or a lady or whoever is going

987
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: to like fix a major social problem.

988
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 5: Right.

989
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 2: It's the same impult. Like any cult leader understands why

990
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: humans are motivated by the things they are, we all

991
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: secretly want that, right. You have to fight against this

992
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: constantly if you do want to like be a better person.

993
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: There's always this desire to believe that however I'm being

994
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 2: is at least the best I can be. Right, and

995
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: Jobs not just understands that fundamental fact, but he understands

996
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: how to use that fact to create a script that

997
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 2: is going to take this guy, and it absolutely works.

998
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: Scully is charmed with Steve Jobs, bordering on obsessed. His wife, however,

999
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: doesn't buy this shtick. When he asked her what she

1000
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: thought of him, her handswer was basically, I don't know, bro, Like, yeah,

1001
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: stinky goblin. Yeah, listen to your wives about the sinky

1002
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: goblin who tries to get you to take a job. Folks,

1003
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 2: if you're ever in this situation, jobs, we are jobs. Yeah.

1004
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: So back at Apple, Jobs's employees and colleagues are equally

1005
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 2: unimpressed with Scully, who was boring and uncharismatic. But Jobs

1006
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: forced the marriage into being, and he even convinced Scully

1007
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: to take a forty percent pay cut to do it.

1008
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 2: Part of how he did this was by leaning on

1009
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,799
Speaker 2: his star power, and this is from Infinite Loop again.

1010
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 2: They met on another Sunday. They had lunch and then

1011
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: went for a walk in Central Park. Scully would later

1012
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 2: remember how chagrined he was by all the people recognizing Jobs.

1013
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 2: It was hardly the anonymous meeting Scully had hoped for.

1014
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 2: I want you to come and work with me, said, Jobs,

1015
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: I can learn so much from you. They walked through

1016
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 2: the Metropolitan Museum of Art. As they walked, Schooly began

1017
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 2: to imagine himself as the teacher of a brilliant student,

1018
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: an Aristotle say to Alexander. He confessed that if he

1019
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 2: hadn't been a businessman, he would have probably become an

1020
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: artist Jobs and a remarkable coincidence, said that if he

1021
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: hadn't become a technologist, he would have been a poet

1022
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 2: in Paris.

1023
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 3: Oh fuck, these people are stupid as hell.

1024
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 2: I do this is where and again none of the

1025
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 2: Jobs movies show this guy. They all want to show

1026
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: him like wooing crowds or like being you know, a technic.

1027
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: None of them seemed to want to show him like

1028
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 2: being a cult leader manipulating rich people to like do

1029
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 2: whatever he wants them to do, like getting it. He

1030
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: finds with each of these guys, he finds out like

1031
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 2: what do you want? And he finds a way to pride.

1032
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: He does the same thing, by the way, and it's

1033
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: not funny when he does it to Was. But he

1034
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 2: does this to Was. What does Wasniak want? He wants

1035
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: to have an adventure with his best friend. So that's

1036
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 2: how Jobs frames it. What a Scully want to change

1037
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: the world by selling pepsi, right, and that's what he gives.

1038
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: Him, you know, by selling a computer.

1039
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yeah, exactly, the pepsi of computers. So Jobs eventually,

1040
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: like Scully, it goes kind of back and forth, and

1041
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: it kind of it does culminate. You could film this

1042
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: really well because there's this like dramatic confrontation on top

1043
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: of a skyscraper they have and Jobs puts it all

1044
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: on the line and is like, do you want to

1045
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 2: spend the rest of your life selling sugar water or

1046
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: do you want a chance to change the world? And

1047
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 2: that breaks Scully's will. He takes the job. The Mac

1048
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: launch was coming up in January of nineteen eighty four.

1049
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: After the failure of the Lisa. The company desperately needed

1050
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: some hype to carry it through. Right. The Apple two

1051
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,839
Speaker 2: was still selling strong, but it's starting to reach kind

1052
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: of like it's starting to fall off, right. They can

1053
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,919
Speaker 2: see that, and they really do need something new. Now,

1054
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: Steve throws all of his hopes and all of the

1055
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: hopes of his company behind a new ad, this kind

1056
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 2: of groundbreaking new strategy for advertising Apple products. Based on

1057
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 2: some ideas that had been brought to them, the ad

1058
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: from chaiat Day. They had written this ad. This is

1059
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 2: the famous nineteen eighty four ad right where you've got

1060
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: like these lines of people all up in front of

1061
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: this screen where this like big brother, you know figure

1062
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: is like preaching, you know, reading a bunch of like

1063
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 2: political ideology tracks to them basically, and then this this

1064
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 2: woman in athletic shorts with a mall runs up and

1065
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 2: she throws the hammer through the screen. It's like, yeah,

1066
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 2: the computer is going to stop nineteen eighty four.

1067
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 8: Bro.

1068
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 3: It's the kind of hilarious that like, looking back at that,

1069
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 3: it is it is, I mean, because it was mocked

1070
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 3: by like the Pepsi guy and this thinking you know.

1071
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pepsi guy and the smelly weirdo. Yeah. So

1072
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty four ad had actually been written before

1073
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 2: chaiat Day contracted with Apple, but and this is what's

1074
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: funny to be, they brought it to a bunch of

1075
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: other companies because they were just trying to sell this

1076
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 2: idea to anybody who wouldn't want to be nineteen eighty

1077
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: four is coming up. Someone's going to have the nineteen

1078
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 2: eighty four ad, and they also understand every company wants

1079
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: to feel like they're the little guy, or at least

1080
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 2: wants to make themselves look like the little guy fighting back.

1081
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 2: You know. It's like how all these giant car companies

1082
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 2: are like, you're just a humble rancher, like, and we're

1083
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 2: just a humble tool provider for a humble rancher and

1084
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 2: also worth the GDP of Japan or whatever. But yeah,

1085
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 2: so this ad that they try to sell to everybody

1086
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 2: like keeps getting turned down because it's it's like kind

1087
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: of narcissistic and up its own asshole. So as soon

1088
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 2: as job sees it, he's like, yes, we have this

1089
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 2: is the best idea, bring it on. So they like

1090
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: they they they filmed this thing. My favorite side detail

1091
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 2: is that they have to bring it a bunch of

1092
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: skinheads as extras. Right now, I don't know are these

1093
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 2: because there's different kinds of skinheads. But I also feel

1094
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 2: like the skinheads who are you're can most easily get

1095
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: in an Apple commercial might not be the good kind.

1096
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1097
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, Trouble said, it's it's a huge hit with

1098
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 9: the fans, and I want to have I want to

1099
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 9: have Sophie, play you a clip of like from the

1100
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 9: end of this ad when it's I think this is

1101
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 9: at Macworld when they play it for the first time,

1102
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 9: because I want you to hear the audience here.

1103
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 5: Right on January twenty four, Apple Computer will introduce MacIntire

1104
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 5: and you'll see why nineteen eighty four w the nineteen

1105
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 5: eighty four.

1106
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: This ads like a huge hit with the listeners, but

1107
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 2: Apple's executives are are kind of like furious about this, right,

1108
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 2: Like when they see the ad for the first time,

1109
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 2: they're all they all have the reaction of all the

1110
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: people who turned it down. They're like, what the fuck

1111
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 2: is this thing? Why are we trying to use this

1112
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 2: like dark bleak apocalyptic ad sell Computers cancel a bunch

1113
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 2: of our ad spots, and Scully has to tell chaiat

1114
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 2: Day to sell off their Super Bowl airtime, and Jay

1115
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: chaiat where at the company like basically fights back. They

1116
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: had they had bought like a sixty second and a

1117
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 2: thirty second slot, and Chai it sells the thirty second slot,

1118
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 2: but then he's like, it's too late for us to

1119
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 2: sell the longer ones. We might as well just run

1120
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 2: the ad, right, And this it's interesting. I don't know

1121
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: how you want to like qualify the level of success

1122
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: or failure this ad has. Right, it's it's seen as

1123
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 2: one of the greatest ads of all time. It is remembered, right,

1124
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 2: it doesn't really sell any macs, So that is a problem. Yeah,

1125
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: that is a problem. Like is it successful because it's

1126
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: really well known and famous and parodied a bunch or

1127
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 2: because like some snooty ad people think it was great,

1128
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 2: or should you judge it based on like how it sells?

1129
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 2: And the mac is not an immediate hit some of

1130
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: why the Macintosh was kind of seen as a disaster.

1131
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: It's not super fair because it does like make money.

1132
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,959
Speaker 2: They sell a couple hundred thousand in the first year,

1133
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: which is good. It's like a decent product line. But

1134
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: Jobs had expected to two million sales, and in fact,

1135
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 2: like when he comes up with, like, we're gonna sell

1136
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: two million of these in our first year, it gets

1137
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,400
Speaker 2: cut down to one million by the company, who's like,

1138
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: that's an insane thing to tell shareholders that we're expecting

1139
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: to sell. No one's ever sold anything close to that

1140
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: many computers in a year. We certainly aren't with this

1141
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 2: fucking thing. And that is still that the estimate the

1142
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: company comes up with a million is still like more

1143
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: than four times as many as actually sell. So this

1144
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: is if if Jobs hadn't run his mouth, hadn't started

1145
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: lying that this is going to sell like a million

1146
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 2: or two million units, he could have just said, yeah,

1147
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 2: we launched the Mac and it's making us a bunch

1148
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 2: of money. Great, But for one thing, he's gotten everyone

1149
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 2: to expect a million sales and they don't make that.

1150
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 2: And for another thing, Apple has stocked up on a

1151
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 2: bunch of materials they don't wind up actually needing because

1152
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: of how many more of these they expect to sell.

1153
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 2: So that's a real issue, and it makes the Mac

1154
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: kind of come out looking like it was a bomb.

1155
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 2: Steve bears a lot of the fault for this. Part

1156
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: of why the back doesn't sell better is that he

1157
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: had insisted that it not be compatible with IBM. Right.

1158
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 2: Not only that, he's like, I don't want this to

1159
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: be compatible with IBMS or with the Lisa right, this

1160
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 2: other computer will making fuck it like my computers won't

1161
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: talk to it.

1162
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 3: Once again, severing the connection with Lisa.

1163
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really is such a predictable man. This whole

1164
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 2: ideology had infected a lot of Apple at this point.

1165
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,919
Speaker 2: Because Steve hates the rest of the company, he kinds

1166
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 2: of builds this situation where every team is really siloed

1167
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: from the other teams. You've got the Apple two, the

1168
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 2: Apple three, the Lisa, and the Mac teams, and like

1169
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 2: they avoid talking or communicating. They all have their separate

1170
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: marketing and accounting firms, which is like it's wasting a

1171
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 2: ton of money. So Scully gets in right before the

1172
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four AD. He's there for these kind of

1173
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: disappointing MAC sales and Jobs' reality distortion field starts to

1174
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 2: fail right and Scully is like, well, we need to

1175
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: make some changes. I don't care if how Steve wants it.

1176
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: So he integrates all of these teams so we can

1177
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 2: eliminate a bunch of these redundant positions. And this infuriates

1178
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 2: Jobs because like now the Mac team has to like

1179
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 2: share resources with other teams, and he thinks that that's vile.

1180
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 2: Scully also makes himself head of the Apple two team,

1181
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 2: which Jobs hates because he's like he hates the Apple too,

1182
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 2: and Scully doesn't know enough to be the head of

1183
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 2: the Apple two team. But this does at least show

1184
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 2: that he what he's trying to do, I think is

1185
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: just kind of signal to Wozniak and the others, like, hey,

1186
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 2: the Apple too is important to us, the thing that

1187
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 2: makes all our money. The other bad call that Jobs

1188
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 2: had made around this time is that he was obsessed

1189
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 2: with something called the Twiggy drive, which is Jobs thinks

1190
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: floppy discs aren't the right technology. He's like, I've got

1191
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 2: we've got this bespoke replacement for the floppy disc called

1192
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 2: the Twiggy drive, and this is going to be the

1193
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 2: future of memory, and it they never get it working

1194
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 2: very well, right, Like, He's part of why the MA

1195
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: gets delayed is he's obsessed with it having a Twiggy

1196
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: drive and that has to be working rather than like

1197
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 2: just putting it a disc drive using everyone uses yeah, yeah, yeah,

1198
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 2: and yeah. I want to quote from Infinite Loop here

1199
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 2: because it really gets to like one of Jobs is

1200
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: more significant technical fuck ups. Jobs in fact, had been

1201
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 2: partly responsible for the problems with Twiggy. His rule, laid

1202
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 2: down for esthetic reasons that Apple computers have not have

1203
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 2: noisy cooling. Fans had made the creation of Twiggy nearly

1204
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 2: impossible from the outset. Disk drives with their electric motors,

1205
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 2: spinning platters and moving armatures produce a lot of heat

1206
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 2: in the uncol heart of an Apple computer. A high

1207
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 2: speed advance drive like a twiggy simply cooked, burning out

1208
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: its own chips and melting or distorting the mylar diskette.

1209
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 2: He's so angry about the concept of a fan that

1210
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 2: he he shackles this thing to a melting a twiggy drive.

1211
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 2: It's very funny, everyone, Robert here, Just to be very clear,

1212
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 2: the mac does not launch with a twiggy drive because

1213
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: they don't get that working. It launches with the flobby.

1214
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 2: And actually it's only able to launch with the flabby

1215
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 2: because they decide, like near the end, that they just

1216
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 2: can't make it work. Thankfully, somebody on the team has

1217
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: sort of secretly against jobs his orders worked on a

1218
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 2: way to fit in a floppy drive with a Macintosh,

1219
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 2: and so the day has saved no thanks to Steve Jobs.

1220
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 2: But I just want to make that clear as well.

1221
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 3: He was so bad at this.

1222
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really is at this point, so bad at

1223
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 2: his job. That's important to understand is most of his

1224
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: skill up to this point, most of his impact has

1225
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: been in his ability to like manipulate money people and

1226
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: marketing people, and he is to an extent good at marketing,

1227
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: but he's like wrong about every technical call he makes

1228
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 2: at this point in his.

1229
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 3: Life, seemingly every business decision too, Yeah, a.

1230
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 8: Lot of them.

1231
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 2: Now. Not long after this, Jobs would also intervene to

1232
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 2: kill like the kind of the last Apple two the

1233
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 2: two X, which would have had that we're going to

1234
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 2: have both a more powerful processor in it and also

1235
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 2: a second slot for another processor where you could plug

1236
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: in an IBM chip, which would have made Apple products

1237
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 2: IBM compatible for the first time. And Job Jobs like

1238
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: personally he goes out of its way to strangle this thing,

1239
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: and it's crazy, this thing must do less. Yeah yeah.

1240
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 2: So Jobs also ensured that the Apple two team was

1241
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 2: cut out of any credit or praise during the annual

1242
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 2: Apple media events he headlined and again had This helps

1243
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 2: to kind of push Wosniak to quit the company, and

1244
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 2: you can see why, Like, you know, the WAZ comes

1245
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: back and he gets right into Apple two stuff, and

1246
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 2: he's kind of frustrated by how everyone else seems to

1247
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: treat them like shit, except for Skully. It's not a

1248
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: coincidence that he does this that he kind of like

1249
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 2: bails on the company about a decade after Steve Jobs

1250
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 2: stole that money from the Atari Job because while Jobs

1251
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 2: doesn't like the Apple too and won't say anything nice

1252
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: about him, but he knows Wosniak is a star, so

1253
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 2: he pulls him out of Apple two work for a

1254
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 2: while to do press for the Mac, and Wosniak, being

1255
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 2: a good company man, does it. And while he's on

1256
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 2: this media tour traveling around to like talk up Jobs

1257
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 2: as Mac, he reads the first book about Apple and

1258
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: reads this story about Jobs stealing five or seven thousand

1259
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: dollars from him, and he like weeps openly about it,

1260
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 2: like this is I think part of why he makes

1261
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 2: the decision to leave. Things keep getting worse for Apple

1262
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 2: from this point forward. The nineteen eighty four commercial had

1263
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 2: not moved a lot of max, but its critical success

1264
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 2: had convinced Jobs to do whatever the Chayat Day people said.

1265
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 2: And they follow up the nineteen eighty four commercial with

1266
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 2: the Lemmings commercial, which shows, like IBM customers, this Lemmings

1267
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: marching suicidally off a cliff Like it's both kind of

1268
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 2: disturbing and also like really pisses people off.

1269
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 3: Hey, you fucking idiot, buy my diure or you'll die.

1270
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 2: And by this point sales have become dire enough, and

1271
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 2: like he gets in trouble.

1272
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 3: For this time, the game Lemmings came out as well.

1273
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: I think it would have predated that that was.

1274
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 8: Not the eighties.

1275
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 3: Let me yeah nice, my bad, my bad.

1276
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah, this is kind of the mid eighties.

1277
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 2: And like right after that, he comes out at like

1278
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: the Macworld event and he proposes a detent with IBM.

1279
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 2: So it's this weird mix of like shit talking the company,

1280
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 2: calling them the Evil Empire, and then suddenly coming out

1281
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 2: on stage and being like, hey, we actually want to

1282
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 2: work with you guys, when like none of your shit

1283
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 2: sells as well as you thought it would and this

1284
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 2: is all messy, right, this is hard to clean up.

1285
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 2: It's bad for the stock price. And Scully's job evolves

1286
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 2: into an even mix of like cleaning up Jobs as

1287
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 2: messes and like apologizing for him and trying to occasionally

1288
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 2: chart a path forward for the company. He is bad

1289
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 2: at both of these tasks, and he and Jobs eventually

1290
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 2: wind up in a conflict over control of the board

1291
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 2: when Jobs tries to engineer a coup On the day

1292
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 2: Scully is heading overseas to celebrate a major sale. Somebody

1293
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 2: warns Scully and he shows it. He and Jobs like

1294
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: fight it out in front of the board basically, and

1295
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: Scully wins Jobs resigns from Apple. He is devastated by this,

1296
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: but the one consequence of this failure is that he

1297
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 2: starts spending time around his daughter and Chrisan. Again, the

1298
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 2: way Lisa describes it, he seems to have lint on

1299
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 2: them to the extent that he lint on anybody once

1300
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 2: his world fell apart. But Jobs wasn't going to be

1301
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: a failure for long, and this is where we get

1302
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 2: to what actually made the man special. Throughout the early

1303
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 2: part of this story, I've hit on a couple of

1304
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 2: decisions that Jobs made that were wrong in the moment

1305
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 2: but right in the long term. He wanted to fight

1306
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 2: Wohsneyak on expansion slots for the Apple too, which is

1307
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 2: dumb then, but in the long term that is where

1308
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 2: technology trended, and trended there because of Jobs, but he

1309
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 2: was able to sell it to people right, and his

1310
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 2: desire for closed independent ecosystems that customers couldn't meddle with

1311
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: is super profitable. Like, look at the iPod, look at

1312
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 2: the iPad, look at the iPhone. All of them work

1313
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 2: that way, and a lot of other companies have gone

1314
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 2: in that direction. Likewise, his early flirtation with Touch Greens,

1315
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: he correctly anticipated the future there, right. He has sometimes

1316
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 2: a good eye for it, right, And so after he

1317
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 2: has this kind of humbling experience of being forced out

1318
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 2: an Apple, his next few years he's going to make

1319
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 2: some really good bets throughout the nineties. He establishes this

1320
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 2: new computer company Next, which, if you're looking to spell it,

1321
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 2: it's spelled the way an asshole would spell it. Just

1322
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 2: the X is capitalized. I think it's infuriating. And the

1323
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 2: Next seems like a dumb computer on paper. They cost

1324
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: like twelve grand each, and he means them for the

1325
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 2: education market, right, like, it's this the most cost It's

1326
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 2: kind of if you take him at face value, it's

1327
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 2: an insane thing to try to do. The case is

1328
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 2: also a perfect cube for whatever reason, nobody, which like

1329
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 2: nobody wants right.

1330
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 3: Nobody's buying case. It looks like an old safe.

1331
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. They eventually repurposed that design for the Xbox uhuh so,

1332
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: But again this is not like this seems like a

1333
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 2: bad idea. But Apple buys Next because they like what

1334
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 2: he's doing with the operating to how it looks so much.

1335
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: They're so enthralled with like the vision he presents. He

1336
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: cons these guys one more time, and that's how he

1337
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 2: gets back in an Apple right. A few years later,

1338
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 2: by like ninety seven, they buy Next and they bring

1339
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 2: jobs back in to run the company. He also, during

1340
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 2: this kind of like most of the nineties interregnum period

1341
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 2: of his life or whatever, he founds Pixar, which you

1342
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 2: know is Pixar. It works out pretty well, so he does.

1343
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 2: This is kind of the start of the job's comeback story.

1344
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:07,480
Speaker 2: And one thing you have to give the man is

1345
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 2: that both of these are evidence that he has more

1346
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 2: personal growth than a lot of guys in his position. Right,

1347
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 2: And in the similar manner, he makes some strides in

1348
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 2: improving his relationship with his daughter over this period of time.

1349
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 2: He also provides more support to Chrisanne. He eventually like

1350
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 2: buys her a house. And I think Mona Simpson is

1351
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,439
Speaker 2: the large It seems like Mona kind of comes into

1352
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 2: his life and sees how he's treating Lisa and Chris

1353
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 2: Anne as like, man, you Steve Jobs, buy your fucking house,

1354
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 2: buy your kids to new clothes. What the fuck are

1355
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: you doing, Steve, stop this like you're being a dick

1356
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 2: for no reason. Yeah, and he actually listens to her, right,

1357
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 2: which you know, I guess you maybe says something that

1358
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 2: said he is still Steve Jobs. And I am never

1359
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 2: going to say in this period that he has a

1360
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 2: great dad and he's always weirdly agro about his daughter,

1361
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 2: like wanting anything from him, any kind of acknowledgment or

1362
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 2: anything else. One moment she relates in her book is

1363
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 2: that like when she's like, I think twelve or something,

1364
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: He's driving her around in his brand new Porsche, right,

1365
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,439
Speaker 2: and she asks him like a little like a kid would, Hey,

1366
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 2: when you're done with the Porsche, can I have it right?

1367
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 2: Which I think I don't know many twelve year olds

1368
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 2: who wouldn't want their dad's Porsche if they can't have it.

1369
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 3: Right, especially when that that is filthy rich.

1370
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they grew up poor right there. These memories

1371
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 2: are on well anything any Steve Jobs.

1372
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,719
Speaker 3: This is directly as a result of Steve Jobs.

1373
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 2: She grew up Paul. Yeah, yeah, This could be if

1374
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 2: she's like thirty asking this question. This could be like,

1375
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 2: you know, part of a character trait in a movie

1376
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 2: that like, yeah, this is somebody who's like grown up,

1377
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 2: you know, greedy or whatever. But she's a child, right,

1378
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 2: this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Here's how

1379
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 2: he responds. Before I made a move to get out,

1380
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: he turned to face me. You're not getting anything, he said,

1381
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 2: you understand nothing. You're getting nothing. And she's like, I

1382
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 2: didn't know if he meant the car, and and haarent

1383
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 2: it's like you're not getting any acknowledgment at all from me.

1384
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 2: That like, I mean, like you're getting nothing from me. Period.

1385
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 2: What a devastating thing to tell a little kid get out,

1386
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 2: like a twelve year old at this point, Yeah, like

1387
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 2: a twelve year old. It's one thing to say, Like

1388
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 2: a reasonable thing to say is like, eh, you know,

1389
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 2: if you need a car, you'll get like a nice

1390
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:15,679
Speaker 2: normal like a used car, something that works and is safe.

1391
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 2: But like, I'm not giving a child a Porsche. Very

1392
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 2: reasonable thing to say. That's real fucked up. Now. Throughout

1393
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:24,760
Speaker 2: this whole period in the late nineties, he slowly gets

1394
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 2: better at kind of embracing her but it's always this

1395
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 2: period of like he'll let her in and then he'll

1396
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 2: recoil and say something really cruel. And one of the

1397
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 2: things in like the dark moments in this relationship they have,

1398
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 2: which are many, that Lisa comforts herself with, is the

1399
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 2: knowledge that he had named the Lisa after her. Right,

1400
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 2: she never believes him. She's just waiting for him to say, like, yes,

1401
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 2: it was named after.

1402
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 3: You, Yeah, which would cost him nothing.

1403
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 2: And it would cost him literally nothing. And this is

1404
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 2: what she writes about it. I like the idea that

1405
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 2: I was connected to him in this way. Me and

1406
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 2: I'd been chosen and had a place, despite the fact

1407
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 2: that he was aloof or absent, and meant I was

1408
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 2: fascina to the earth and its machines. He was famous,

1409
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,640
Speaker 2: he drove a Porsche. If the Lisa was named after me,

1410
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 2: I was a part of all that. I see now.

1411
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 2: We were at cross purposes for him. I was a

1412
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,680
Speaker 2: blot on a spectacular ascent. As our story did not

1413
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 2: fit with the narrative of greatness and virtue he might

1414
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:18,559
Speaker 2: have wanted for himself. My existence ruined his streak. For me,

1415
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 2: it was the opposite, the closer I was to him

1416
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 2: the less I would feel ashamed he was part of

1417
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 2: the world. He would accelerate me into the light, stating

1418
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 2: thing to think.

1419
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 3: Darkness this man has put inside. Even then, she was

1420
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 3: still desperate by him.

1421
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 2: Jesus dead or he's her dead. Yeah, you don't.

1422
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:41,839
Speaker 3: Choose your parents.

1423
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 2: No, oh God. So for years, even after he did

1424
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 2: accept her as his daughter and brought her into his life,

1425
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 2: Steve would continue to refuse acknowledging that he'd named the

1426
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 2: Lisa after her. Eventually, when she's like a young adult,

1427
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 2: I think he finally breaks down. I think she might

1428
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 2: have been like late teens. But this is only when

1429
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: she's put in a situation in which denying that the

1430
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 2: Lisa was named after his daughter would have made him

1431
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 2: look bad in front of his most famous friend. And

1432
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 2: this is where Bono comes back into the store. Yes, yay.

1433
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 2: So the following anecdote happens. Jobs goes on this like

1434
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 2: yacht trip around the Mediterranean with like his new family.

1435
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 2: He's like married again, he's got another kid and with Lisa.

1436
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 2: He invites Lisa this is part of him like doing

1437
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 2: a rapproch mall with her, and they stop off at

1438
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 2: Bono's villa on like the Mediterranean Coast for dinner, and Bono,

1439
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 2: who's kind of starstruck by Steve Job, starts asking about

1440
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 2: the early days of Apple. Then Bono asked, so was

1441
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:39,720
Speaker 2: the Lisa computer named after her? And Bona's she's doing

1442
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 2: this casually, right, He's not up on this lore. He

1443
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 2: like knows Steve had a computer named the Lisa. He

1444
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 2: meets Lisa, He's like, oh, he's named after her, right,

1445
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 2: And my father hesitated, looks down at his plate for

1446
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 2: a long moment, then back at Bono. Yeah it was,

1447
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 2: he said. I sat up in my chair. I thought so.

1448
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,679
Speaker 2: Bono said, yep, my father said. I studied my father's face.

1449
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 2: What it changed? Why had he admitted it now, after

1450
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 2: all these years? Of course it was named after me?

1451
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,559
Speaker 2: I thought, Then his life seemed preposterous. Now I felt

1452
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 2: a new power that pulled my chest up. That's the

1453
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 2: first time he said yes. I told Bono, thank you

1454
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 2: for asking. It was as if famous people needed other

1455
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 2: famous people around to release their secrets.

1456
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 3: Oh God, this poor woman has had her life ruined.

1457
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 3: She just randomly says one of hers og style things

1458
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,599
Speaker 3: because Steve Jobs blotted her soul.

1459
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 2: Now she's the first person because she does inherit millions

1460
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,680
Speaker 2: of dollars from him, and she's the first person I've

1461
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 2: ever heard of inheriting millions of dollars where I'm like, yeah,

1462
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 2: but you earned that, Like.

1463
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:52,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like she should have there, she should have gone billions.

1464
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 3: She should not have Oh my god, fuck out Bono.

1465
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 2: That's the he's the good guy. He's not the bad guy.

1466
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,959
Speaker 1: Something to make up for putting that album on.

1467
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 3: It's the first great thing he did. The second thing

1468
01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 3: was the Spider Man musical.

1469
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 2: The second was he Oh right, I'll give him. There

1470
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 2: was one other great thing I got bought a.

1471
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:20,440
Speaker 4: Paid bono podcast.

1472
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 2: Intel Nochio flew me out to Dublin. Wants to report

1473
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 2: on this operating system they were making called Migo. That

1474
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 2: was like that was going to be their android. You

1475
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 2: haven't heard of Migo because it was a flop, and

1476
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 2: they're like they flew us all out there and like

1477
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 2: it took us to the Guinness Brewery where there was

1478
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 2: a Bono impersonator and a whole fake He was billed

1479
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 2: as the best Bono impersonator in Ireland. Wow, which is

1480
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:50,200
Speaker 2: maybe a crowded field. I actually don't know. I will

1481
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 2: say I could not have told you it wasn't real Bono.

1482
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 2: You know, he did look the part, and it's you know,

1483
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:58,679
Speaker 2: I'll give him that. I'll give him that.

1484
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:01,799
Speaker 3: Plays an impersonator though.

1485
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe it was. That's his hobby. He's both getting

1486
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 2: rich people to reveal their secrets pretending to be a

1487
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 2: Bono impersonator. God Willing. All right, well ed? Is there

1488
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 2: any where people can find you?

1489
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 3: You can find me at exit Ron on Twitter, slash rate,

1490
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 3: my newstop bezziest Guy dot Social fun me of course,

1491
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 3: and my new podcast, Better Offline at better Offline dot com.

1492
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 3: Click the podcast button you get all the stuff on

1493
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 3: there and my newsletters on there too.

1494
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:37,520
Speaker 1: Based Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1495
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1496
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1497
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.