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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session one thirty of the Arapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. Today we're digging into some of

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Speaker 1: the particular challenges that come with being a black woman

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Speaker 1: and a leadership role. For this conversation, I was joined

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Speaker 1: by Unida Smith. Unita is a licensed professional counselor, mental

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Speaker 1: health service provider, and nationally certified counselor in Tennessee. She's

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Speaker 1: the founder of spring Forth Counseling and a clean beauty

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Speaker 1: advocate working to educate her community on the importance of

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Speaker 1: self care by reducing their toxic footprint. Unda strives to

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Speaker 1: change the face of therapy one person at a time.

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Speaker 1: She's a certified E M d R Therapist and treats

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Speaker 1: childhood trauma that manifests in adulthood. She's also passionate about

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Speaker 1: de stigmatizing mental illness and promoting mental wellness within faith

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Speaker 1: based communities. Unida and I chatted about how to manage

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Speaker 1: perfectionism and burnout as a leader, concerns related to connecting

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Speaker 1: authentically with others, and the importance of creating self care routines.

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Speaker 1: If you hear something that connects with you while listening,

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Speaker 1: please be sure to share with us on social media

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Yanetta, thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. Dr Joy. Yeah, I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: hear about this, you know, especially as we hear more

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Speaker 1: and more black women kind of climbing the ranks in

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Speaker 1: their corporate spaces and becoming entrepreneurs and just you know,

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Speaker 1: being active and leading different kinds of organizations. I do

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Speaker 1: think that there are some particular challenges that come with

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Speaker 1: being a black woman in a leadership kind of a position.

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Speaker 1: And I know you work a lot with these types

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Speaker 1: of women's in your practice. So I'm happy you were

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Speaker 1: able to join us today for this conversation. So are

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Speaker 1: there particular themes that you have found kind of among

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Speaker 1: your clients who are black women in leadership positions, like

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Speaker 1: particular challenges that you think that they're struggling with. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: Like working with black women in leadership positions, I noticed

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Speaker 1: that there was like this trend that was happening with

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Speaker 1: them and some of the language and some of the

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Speaker 1: insecurities and some of the challenges that they experienced. So

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Speaker 1: what I typically have them broken down by, it's just

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Speaker 1: like the pressures that come with having a platform and

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Speaker 1: being a black woman in leadership and the pain that

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Speaker 1: comes along with that position, and then the process of

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Speaker 1: how it's so difficult to like be transparent in those spaces.

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Speaker 1: So those are kind of like the three points that

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Speaker 1: I'll cover just to kind of clarify what that looks like. Okay, perfect, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I love that breakdown, So talk to me about

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Speaker 1: the pressures of having a platform. So the pressures are

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Speaker 1: having the platform mainly are associated with it just the

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Speaker 1: increased responsibility being a woman, being a black woman in

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Speaker 1: elis dership position. There is this idea of perfection that

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Speaker 1: comes along with it. We all know a lot about,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, like the black tax. Whereas we have to

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Speaker 1: put in more effort, we have to almost be flawless

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Speaker 1: with our presentation because we already have a disadvantage just

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Speaker 1: because of being a woman and also being a black woman,

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Speaker 1: you know, so there is an increased responsibility that comes

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Speaker 1: along with that. One thing that I like to communicate

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Speaker 1: to the women that I work with is just understanding

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Speaker 1: you know what you are responsible for, and one of

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Speaker 1: those things is not necessarily completely with how other people

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Speaker 1: view you. So knowing that just because you may be

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Speaker 1: more qualified for the job, it doesn't necessarily mean that

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Speaker 1: it's your job. Leaders being careful not to take on

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Speaker 1: too many tasks, not to do things that will enable

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Speaker 1: the people around them and get stuck in a cycle

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Speaker 1: of like co depend to see where people are coming

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Speaker 1: to them and like completely dependent on them. So I

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Speaker 1: wanna I want to stop here, Unna, because you have

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Speaker 1: already now we gotta take a moment here, because I

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Speaker 1: think that this is something a lot of us struggle with, right,

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Speaker 1: Like this idea that especially like if you're capable, so

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Speaker 1: you're somebody who has been kind of like high achieving

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Speaker 1: and doing a lot of things in your life, right

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Speaker 1: Like there is this expectation that you can do it

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Speaker 1: easier or like it's not gonna take you as much time,

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Speaker 1: and so then you wind up just assuming all of

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Speaker 1: these tests and yes, you may be able to do

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Speaker 1: and get them all done, but at what expense mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And it's like just because you can doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: you need to. And I think as a black woman

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Speaker 1: in a leadership position, there's already that pressure that I

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Speaker 1: can't say no or um. There's already so many expectations

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Speaker 1: that are placed on you that it's very difficult to

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Speaker 1: pull back and to delegate. So are there other pressures

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Speaker 1: that you're seeing kind of associated with people having like

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Speaker 1: these leadership platforms. Yeah, another pressure would be the perception

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Speaker 1: of perfection. So I kind of got into that a

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Speaker 1: little bit previously. But I think perfectionism is is a

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Speaker 1: tricky touchy subject right now because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: pride themselves on being perfectionists. Like perfectionism is like one

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Speaker 1: of those things that is not okay to have, but

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Speaker 1: it's kind of okay to have because people use the

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Speaker 1: term really loosely like being a perfectionist or like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm O c D. So basically the way

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Speaker 1: they want to describe that is like I have a

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Speaker 1: clean house and I'm organized, which isn't really a great

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Speaker 1: way to describe that, because perfectionism can be toxic, right,

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Speaker 1: And what I view as something that's toxic is something

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Speaker 1: that bleeds over into like every area. So not only

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Speaker 1: am I required to have a perfect career, then I'm

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Speaker 1: also required to have like a perfect marriage, and I'm

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Speaker 1: required to have a perfect children, And that can be

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Speaker 1: very exhausting to try to maintain that image and try

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Speaker 1: to maintain that of perfection. And one thing that I

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Speaker 1: noticed too is that oftentimes people who operate from a

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Speaker 1: space of perfectionism or that perfection they have maybe like

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Speaker 1: a childhood with some neglects or there is some deep

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Speaker 1: rooted feelings of inadequacy. And people aren't going to praise

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Speaker 1: you for being not good enough, but people will, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, applause you or idolize you for being perfect

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Speaker 1: mm hmmm. And that goes back to the cycle that

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Speaker 1: we just talked about, right, Like, you have been doing

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Speaker 1: things so perfectly quote unquote throughout your life that people

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Speaker 1: then just continue to expect you to kind of show

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Speaker 1: up in spaces and do all of this great work.

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Speaker 1: H Yeah, and I would imagine that some of that,

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Speaker 1: if you are not careful, can really lead to burn out. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: absolutely one of the syndrome. So I'd like to create

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Speaker 1: these syndromes back to joy, and I don't have like

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Speaker 1: any I haven't done any research in the area, so

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Speaker 1: I know that's like a pop on the hand for us,

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Speaker 1: but it comes up often, like in my work. So

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Speaker 1: one of the syndromes that I like have coined, I

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Speaker 1: guess would be like the sacrificial Lamb syndrome. Right. A

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Speaker 1: person that's operating from like a sacrificial Lamb syndrome feels

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Speaker 1: like if I take care of myself, then someone else

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Speaker 1: will suffer. Right, So because I'm the sacrificial Lamb, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be the one like doing the suffering. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be the one making those sacrifices. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be the one volunteering myself. I'm not gonna ask anyone

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Speaker 1: for help because I don't want to burden anybody else.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to be the one that takes that

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Speaker 1: bears the brunt of that, and oftentimes that's what I

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Speaker 1: find with women, especially Black women, in leadership positions, where

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Speaker 1: they feel like they have to be the ones making

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Speaker 1: all of the sacrifices, whether it be with word family,

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Speaker 1: you know, just those different dynamics. And that goes back

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Speaker 1: to the conversations we have kind of just generally around

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Speaker 1: like self care and you know, like making sure that

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Speaker 1: you're taking care of yourself so that you can be

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Speaker 1: available both to yourself and other people. But that kind

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Speaker 1: of goes against this thinking of like, Okay, I can't

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Speaker 1: take care of myself because then somebody else will suffer,

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Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, And then sometimes what happens with that

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Speaker 1: is when you go out of your way to take

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Speaker 1: care of others that may not have even been the

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Speaker 1: expectation for them for you. You know. So sometimes in

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Speaker 1: this role, there's this resentment that comes up because here

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Speaker 1: I am being the sacrificial lamb and making these sacrifices.

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Speaker 1: But then I don't feel that I have anybody to

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Speaker 1: go to when I need it. And when I do

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Speaker 1: go to people and I need help, that help isn't

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Speaker 1: reciprocated for the help that I offer them isn't really

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Speaker 1: appreciated because that's not quite what they needed or wanted.

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Speaker 1: So it's really it can be really dangerous to operate

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Speaker 1: with this mindset, you know, under this sacrificial lamb mentality,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, it can definitely lead to resentment and burn out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this kind of reminds me of the conversation I had

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Speaker 1: with Dr Franco on the episode about making friends as

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Speaker 1: an adult. Um. You know, so sometimes we think like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna overdo it for this person because this is

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Speaker 1: how I would expect them to show up for me.

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Speaker 1: But she talked about the fact that we get what

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Speaker 1: we asked for in relationships, not what we put out, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of over extending ourselves and kind of

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Speaker 1: going above and beyond in relationships. We think people will

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Speaker 1: reciprocate that to us, and that is not necessarily true,

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Speaker 1: nor does it mean that they don't care. Right, But

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Speaker 1: you have not asked them for that, nor have they

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Speaker 1: asked you for you to be over extending yourselves in

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Speaker 1: the ways we do sometimes. Absolutely, So the next point

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Speaker 1: you talked about was the pain of the position, So

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Speaker 1: can you say more about that? Yeah, so it can

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Speaker 1: be lonely, you know, it could be lonely operating as

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Speaker 1: somebody in the leadership position. They can feel like they

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Speaker 1: have limited spaces for escape, you know, limited freedom or

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Speaker 1: room to like be human or make a mistake. They

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Speaker 1: can feel, like we talked about before, they're caring that

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Speaker 1: their personal issues along with the issues of others simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: So there's a way that comes along with it. And

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Speaker 1: then there's also this underlying belief that I find often

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Speaker 1: is that I need to suppress to attain success, Right,

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Speaker 1: so I have to suppress my feelings. I have to

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Speaker 1: kind of keep my emotions contained in order to be successful,

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Speaker 1: because the vulnerable person or a person that is, you know,

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Speaker 1: expressing freely expressing feelings is not someone that the world

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Speaker 1: view deems as being someone that can be successful. And

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Speaker 1: then there's also the element of needing to the difficulty like, um,

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Speaker 1: we mean you mentioned before as far as like making

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Speaker 1: authentic connections. And one thing I find that with my

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Speaker 1: clients that have challenges with making authentic connections, I asked

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Speaker 1: them a simple question, well are you being real? And

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Speaker 1: you know, they're usually like, well, whatever you mean, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm being real. But it's difficult to make connections when

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Speaker 1: you're not being real with yourself, or you're not presenting

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Speaker 1: as an authentic version of yourself. You know the phrase

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Speaker 1: like real recognized real, and that's there's validity to that,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so I'm wondering that when these people

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Speaker 1: even come into therapy, right, because some of the things

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Speaker 1: that you're mentioning seem like they would be the antithesis

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Speaker 1: to actually talk into a professional ray, like I don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily want people to know that I'm struggling or I

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Speaker 1: can't even be vulnerable with myself. So are there particular

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Speaker 1: things that might happen for like a black woman in

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Speaker 1: leadership that might lead them to see therapy. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very sad to say, and that's why I think

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Speaker 1: it's so important that we're having this conversation because typically

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Speaker 1: when they come to therapy is when the bottom falls out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, when things have become so overwhelming that is

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Speaker 1: starting to interfere with their ability to lead, and it's

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Speaker 1: starting to attack those areas that they value so much.

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Speaker 1: They're like, I have to do something. It's a last

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Speaker 1: resort instead of being something that you know could be handled,

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Speaker 1: you know, a little sooner when there isn't all that

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Speaker 1: you know all these issues happening, and things are more

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Speaker 1: challenging and harder to navigate into to handle. They usually

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Speaker 1: come when when things are just falling apart. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: do you think it is like a lack of recognizing

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Speaker 1: that things are kind of spiraling, Like what do you

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Speaker 1: think makes it difficult for them to maybe reach out

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Speaker 1: for the help. I think it is a lack of

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Speaker 1: recognition to some degree, But also I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: it's just hard to wrap what I'm finding with the

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Speaker 1: leaders that I work with, it sometimes it's hard to

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Speaker 1: wrap for them to wrap their brain around the fact

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Speaker 1: that I can't figure this out. Yes, especially when you

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Speaker 1: go back to the perfectionism piece that you mentioned right

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Speaker 1: right right, Because most of them are very competent. They're

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Speaker 1: very good at what they do, and they're very good

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Speaker 1: at problem solving for others. So when it comes to

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Speaker 1: their individual challenges, it's like I should be able to

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Speaker 1: figure this out. I should be able to work this

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Speaker 1: out on my own. And there's this idea of weakness

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Speaker 1: that comes with not being able to resolve their own problems.

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Speaker 1: And I like to look at it as when I

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Speaker 1: explain it to them, as to like, you know, what

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Speaker 1: could be a reason why it's difficult for them to

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Speaker 1: work through and navigate what it is that they're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: I always mentioned perspective and position, and dependent on where

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Speaker 1: your position is gonna alter how your perspective on the situation.

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Speaker 1: So one reference I like to use this like watching

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Speaker 1: the scary movie. I don't like scary movies. I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't like to be uh like, I just don't

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Speaker 1: want to use that, Like why why be scared? You know,

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Speaker 1: it's to many of things to be scared with. Why

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Speaker 1: watch something that's gonna make you scared? But one thing

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Speaker 1: was scary movies? Is you know how it is when

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Speaker 1: you're watching the movie, you're like, where are you going?

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Speaker 1: Why are you running there? And look at something behind you? Right,

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Speaker 1: because you're on the outside looking in, so you have

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Speaker 1: a different viewpoint. You know that you know the killer

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Speaker 1: is behind the corner around you know, behind a shad

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Speaker 1: or whatever. They don't know that because they're in the situation.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of times it's like that with leaders.

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Speaker 1: When you're in a situation, or when you are anxious

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Speaker 1: or you're emotionally activated, um your fight flighter freeze response,

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Speaker 1: you know, gets gets activated, and when that's activated, the

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Speaker 1: only thing you know how to do is fight flight

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Speaker 1: er freeze. But when you're in the outside looking in,

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Speaker 1: which is a position of like a therapist, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're not necessarily emotionally attached to their experience. We have

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Speaker 1: a different perspective and we can help them navigate what

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Speaker 1: they're going through a little bit better than them trying

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Speaker 1: to do it on their own. Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: that that's one of the great tools that we can

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Speaker 1: teach clients as therapist, right, is this perspective taking. So

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Speaker 1: initially when they come to us, we are kind of

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Speaker 1: taking a perspective on their lives, but eventually we're teaching

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Speaker 1: them like how can you do this for yourself? Like

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Speaker 1: if you were watching your life play out in a movie,

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Speaker 1: so things might you recognize that you maybe can't when

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Speaker 1: you're in the movie and you're the main character. M hmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I want to go back to your point you

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Speaker 1: Netta about kind of leadership being really lonely, because I

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Speaker 1: know we see more and more research coming out about

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Speaker 1: like loneliness being an epidemic and how that impacts our

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Speaker 1: mental health. And I think that you're right, especially in

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Speaker 1: some circles where you might be, if not the only,

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Speaker 1: maybe one of few black women, like in a leadership position.

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Speaker 1: I think it would be really hard to figure out

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Speaker 1: where support might be able to come from. So what

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Speaker 1: are your what are some suggestions or things that you've

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Speaker 1: worked with on your clients to kind of figure out

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Speaker 1: where support might be able to come from for them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important to find and sometimes even

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Speaker 1: create safe spaces where you can be transparent. You know,

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Speaker 1: transparency is difficult a lot with my clients. Would I

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Speaker 1: work with is kind of helping them to understand like

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Speaker 1: what their insecurities are and how those insecurities can get

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Speaker 1: in the way of them being able to show up

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Speaker 1: as their most authentic self. But understanding that, you know,

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Speaker 1: vulnerability is how we connect. You know, when you view

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Speaker 1: vulnerability as the weakness, it can cause you not to

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Speaker 1: want to be vulnerable. But if you understand that there

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Speaker 1: is power and your vulnerability and that vulnerability is that

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Speaker 1: peace that's necessary for you to make those connections, then

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Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to start to create safe spaces.

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Speaker 1: You know. I think it's great, like if you can

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Speaker 1: get to that place. But some of the stuff that

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Speaker 1: you've already talked about in terms of like the perfectionism

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Speaker 1: and like, Okay, I do good at solving other people's problems,

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Speaker 1: I don't necessarily really think I have any I think

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Speaker 1: those things would make it difficult to be really transparent.

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Speaker 1: So how do you even back them up to get

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Speaker 1: to a space of like being able to be transparent

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Speaker 1: in like a situation with a stranger. I think therapy

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Speaker 1: sometimes as the catalyst for that to happen, m Um,

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Speaker 1: because there's an element of confidentiality that's present, you know,

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Speaker 1: knowing that if I share this with you, then you

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Speaker 1: by law can't share it with anybody else, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, So that provides a sense of safety,

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Speaker 1: and then finding safe spaces or even sometimes create a

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Speaker 1: safe spaces, Like there's a local group here in my

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Speaker 1: town where a lady has created a space for people

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Speaker 1: to come and share and be transparent and they signed

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Speaker 1: n d a's you know, so that may offer some

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Speaker 1: sense of like, you know, comfort, knowing that you know

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Speaker 1: you have signed something that states that you won't share

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Speaker 1: anything that we you know that we communicate in this space.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's important to just not jump all

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Speaker 1: into it, like Okay, I need to be transparent, and

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Speaker 1: then I'm just you know, sharing my business and just

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Speaker 1: sharing everything and word vomited on everyone. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's just really taking your time to like test the waters,

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Speaker 1: to just open up a little bit with someone, like

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Speaker 1: listen to them, like be authentic and seeing where it goes.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of leaders struggle with transparency because

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Speaker 1: they've been burned, you know, and or their trust has

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Speaker 1: been violated. But I think it's important to understand that,

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Speaker 1: like you have to start somewhere, and you have to

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Speaker 1: start slow, and that you know, allowing time and space

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Speaker 1: kind of be your teachers, right, like you said, start

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Speaker 1: with sharing a little bit about yourself and then seeing

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Speaker 1: how people react or you know, can you trust them?

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Speaker 1: Is it safe to share what you shared? And then

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Speaker 1: you gradually continue sharing once you can, once you know

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Speaker 1: that you can trust the space, Yes, yes, absolutely absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And then again where why therapy I think is a

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Speaker 1: great way to like test that, right, Like you said,

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Speaker 1: you know, legally we are required to you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of keep our mouth shut about with shared in therapy,

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Speaker 1: but I think it is also just a great way

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Speaker 1: of you practicing being authentic with another human being and

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Speaker 1: kind of seeing what happens with that information. Yes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's another little term that I have and is called

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Speaker 1: post transparency syndrome. So this is like when you feel

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Speaker 1: vulnerable and you feel like an intense wave of anxiety

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Speaker 1: and regret after you've been transparent, and you like want

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Speaker 1: to completely crawl under a rock and you want to

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Speaker 1: undo everything you did and everything you said showing like

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Speaker 1: how you really felt or ware you really are. And

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Speaker 1: I think what happens with that is when you're transparent,

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Speaker 1: individuals feel like they don't give themselves credit for the

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Speaker 1: bravery that's necessary to be transparent, so they walk away

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Speaker 1: from the situation feeling like, man, I'll never do that again,

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Speaker 1: instead of looking at it like, wow, that was really

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Speaker 1: brave of me to like show up, you know, and

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Speaker 1: open myself up and be vulnerable and connect. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: I think again, you know, it's actually with this kind

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Speaker 1: of a population, right, when you're somebody who is a leader,

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Speaker 1: sometimes things come to you really easily, and so you

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Speaker 1: don't always give yourself credit for what may seem like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that was just a little thing, but it really can

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Speaker 1: be a big thing in terms of like you're becoming

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Speaker 1: more emotionally available and more emotionally healthy. M M. Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: So I'm guessing that a part of what also makes

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Speaker 1: it really difficult to be transparent and you know, makes

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Speaker 1: it difficult to have authentic connections is if you have

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Speaker 1: not really kind of done your own work in working

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Speaker 1: through your own insecurities. So can you say more about

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Speaker 1: like insecurities in leadership? Yes, yes, insecurities are huge, right,

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Speaker 1: and all of us have insecurities. Okay, let's just put

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Speaker 1: that out there, right, And if somebody says they don't

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Speaker 1: have an insecurity, that basically means that their insecurity is

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Speaker 1: you knowing that they have an insecurity. So, um, but

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Speaker 1: one thing about insecurities, its insecurity can create like a

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Speaker 1: bridge or buried between you being like a perfect or

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Speaker 1: an excellent leader. And I'll break down like the difference

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Speaker 1: between a perfect leader and an excellent leader. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: when you're a leader and you're striving for perfection, then

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Speaker 1: you have this unrealistic pressure um perfection and subjective. So

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Speaker 1: it's going to be based on that that individual's experience

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Speaker 1: in their opinion. You can't please everybody, right, and everybody

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Speaker 1: has an opinion. So when you are operating from a

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Speaker 1: place of perfection, your meter is constantly gonna be wavering.

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Speaker 1: Right on a good day, people may like what you're

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Speaker 1: doing and they may think you're awesome, and then on

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Speaker 1: the other day then they're gonna think, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: horrible and what you're doing is irrelevant and it's not

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Speaker 1: trending or whatever the case may be. So perfection is

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Speaker 1: really not attainable. But when you strive to be like

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Speaker 1: an excellent leader, then you're striving to operate from the

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Speaker 1: best of your ability. Like this is going to be

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Speaker 1: aligned with like your core beliefs. You're going to be

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Speaker 1: focused on showing up like as the best version of you.

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Speaker 1: And this is gonna be not considering your individual life experience,

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Speaker 1: your resources, and your present circumstances. But one thing I

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Speaker 1: like to look at in terms of insecurities is that

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Speaker 1: your insecurities come to offer you insight. So insecurities are

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Speaker 1: kind of like a gift. So instead of trying to

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Speaker 1: cover them, it's good for us to be curious about them,

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Speaker 1: like where is this insecurity coming from? Like what is

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Speaker 1: this insecurity coming to? Like show me and knowing that

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Speaker 1: sometimes those insecurities are how we are able to like

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Speaker 1: make connections, So looking at it more as information as

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Speaker 1: opposed to anything that we need to judge, right, right, Yeah, Look,

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Speaker 1: I think it'd be difficult, right because when you hear

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Speaker 1: the word insecurities, I think most people kind of there's

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Speaker 1: a negative connotation there. Right. It's something that I don't

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Speaker 1: necessary like about myself or something that I don't feel

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Speaker 1: ass good about. But it is just information because we

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Speaker 1: are all human. Yeah, So something that we haven't touched

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Speaker 1: on United that I would love to hear your thoughts about,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I think that there is like traditional leadership, right,

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Speaker 1: but I think now with the advance of technology and

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Speaker 1: social media, like leadership is not just in your community

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Speaker 1: or in your organization, Like there is also I think

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Speaker 1: leadership that comes along with sharing things on social media. Right,

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Speaker 1: so people have like huge platforms. But you were there

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Speaker 1: at the Will to Be Will conversation. We had a

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Speaker 1: conversation about, you know, like just feeling exposed when you

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Speaker 1: have a social media platform and like worried about like

432
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: what kind of feedback you're gonna get. I'm wondering if

433
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: that's something that has come up with your clients as well. Yes,

434
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: it does come up pretty much. Now, being a leader

435
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: is really connected to your ability to be visible. And

436
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: with social media being here, things are like visible times

437
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: like a thousand, right because you know, whereas before, say

438
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: something came out or there was some information that you

439
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: may feel shame or regret about, you know, it can

440
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: kind of be contained into this limited space. But now

441
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: if something comes out, like everyone has access to you

442
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: and everyone has access to your information, that's a lot

443
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: of pressure. You know, there's a lot of pressure that

444
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: comes along with that. So I think it is important

445
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: to look at that for leadership as well. Mm hmm. Yeah.

446
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you mentioned this idea of being visibility

447
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: because that's something we talked about a lot of therapists,

448
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: right that. You know, again, with the advent of more technology,

449
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: clients are going to Instagram and Facebook and Twitter to

450
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: like find therapists or to talk to at least research you.

451
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: And that's the only way they're gonna find you is

452
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: if you are visible. And you know, so a lot

453
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: of therapists have been struggling with like how do I

454
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: be become more visible on social media? And is that

455
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: an okay thing to do? And what kinds of things

456
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: that I share. So I do think it is a

457
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: conversation that we're going to be continuing to have as

458
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: technology continues to grow. M hmm. Yeah. And I think

459
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: it's important to to to know that just because you're

460
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: a leader and just because you are visible, doesn't mean

461
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: you always have to be visible, you know. And I

462
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: think it's important to safeguard your you know, the things

463
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: that you don't want. Yeah, we want to be vulnerable,

464
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: but we also want to be wise and what we

465
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: share and who we allow into those spaces, and you know,

466
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: creating safe spaces that don't have to always be connected

467
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: to social media or having those places of that you

468
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: can go to that everyone doesn't have access to because

469
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: as a leader, people already have so much access to

470
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: you in your life and it can cause you to

471
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I have to That's connected to

472
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: the belief that you have to be perfect because people

473
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: are always watching and always looking. So sometimes being very

474
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: intentional about creating those safe spaces within your within your

475
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: life and within your social media as well. You know,

476
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: you want to be vulnerable so that you can connect,

477
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 1: but then you also want to be wise so that

478
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: that doesn't get tain it um and so that you're

479
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: not over exposed. Yeah, so I would imagine you know

480
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: that a large part of your work with your clients

481
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: struggling with these kinds of things is looking at their

482
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: self care and how do they you know, do a

483
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: better job of you know, setting better boundaries and those

484
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: kinds of things. What are some of the things that

485
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: you typically find yourself recommending to your clients to really

486
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: kind of break down some of that perfectionism and the

487
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: need to kind of be everywhere and you know, kind

488
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: of always be doing the things. Yeah. So, of course,

489
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: first and foremost is therapy, right, they're already there, but

490
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: there's so much beauty and being able to sit in

491
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 1: the space with somebody who doesn't need anything from you. Right,

492
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: as a leader, when people are constantly pulling from you

493
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: and people expecting something from you, it's good to have

494
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: those spaces. And it doesn't always have to be within

495
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 1: the therapeutic setting, but it can be like with you know,

496
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: family members or just people who can see you for you.

497
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: They know who you are and they're not requesting anything

498
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: of you. They don't need anything from you, but they

499
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: just want to enjoy that time and space with you.

500
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: I think it's important that leaders have an escape. And

501
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: when I say escape, I'm not saying like you're working

502
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: for a vacation. I love vacations. Vacations are awesome, but

503
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: we need to have a way to have a vacation

504
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: every day. So whether it be like us spacing your home,

505
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: or whether it be something that you do outside of

506
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: the work setting. I find a lot of leaders they say,

507
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: you know what, I love my job and I enjoy

508
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: work so much that that's my escape. Work can't be

509
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: your escape, you know, having something that you have that

510
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: you do, whether you know, like painting or exercise or walking,

511
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: like having something that you do that gets you away

512
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: from your title, get you away from your role, get

513
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: you away from the responsibility, and allows you to have

514
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: space to like be a human just being and not

515
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: be a human that's always doing. I think, kind of

516
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: going back to your first point about meeting with the

517
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: therapist or somebody who doesn't need anything from you, I

518
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: would guess that that's a reason why a lot of

519
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: people really feel uncomfortable with therapy is because they have

520
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: kind of painted this narrative of themselves that they are

521
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: the one who does you know, that's the value they

522
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: bring to relationships, and so what kind of relationship could

523
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: I even possibly be in where they don't need something

524
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: from me? M. Yeah, that's a great point because it's

525
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: uncomfortable because you're operating outside of a role that you're

526
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: you're used to operating in, like I have it when

527
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: I'm in here doing everything for everybody. But if I

528
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: have to be the one that needs help or I

529
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: have to be the vulnerable person, that can be very uncomfortable.

530
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: And and then it causes you to have to check

531
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: your ego, you know, and the ideas that you set

532
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: up for yourself of what you are supposed to do

533
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: and how you're supposed to show up like in the

534
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: world and with others, you know. So it can cause

535
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: you to check like how do you view people that

536
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: are quote unquote subordinate to you? Do you view them

537
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: as being weaker? You know? And is that why it's

538
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: difficult for you to assume that position of help? So

539
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: it really causes you to really look at both sides

540
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: of the spectrum. And it can also give you space

541
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: to have more empathy for others because you're now in

542
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: a position that you traditionally like see other people in

543
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: mm hmmm. Great pointing that. So there are some resources

544
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: like books, podcast, TV shows, anything that you kind of

545
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: find yourself recommending over and over to your clients. One

546
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: of the new books that I'm reading now is Restored

547
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: at the Root find Bishop Joseph Walker. It's really talking

548
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: about like getting to the root of your problems and

549
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: issues and kind of what presents, you know, problems for

550
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: you and really kind of getting to the root of

551
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: like these dysfunctional cycles that you find yourself in. That's

552
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: a good one. I love all Renee Brown's work on vulnerability.

553
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: She has a book there to Lead that's really good.

554
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: There's a book called Ordering Your Private World. That one

555
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: is a really good book. So I love Stephen Verdick Um.

556
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: I like a lot of UM. I listened to a

557
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: lot of creatures and stuff. He has a podcast that's

558
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: amazing and it's just his messages. And of course, like

559
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: Sarah Jake's I listened to a lot of her stuff too.

560
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: UM And Self Compassion. I know that's a resource that's

561
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: been mentioned often, but that book is amazing, really helping

562
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: you to get out of your head and helping you

563
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: to offer yourself compassion instead of harsh critiques and to

564
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: get out of that perfectionist mentality. I often ask my

565
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: clients a lot like what did you know maybe that

566
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: younger version if you need in that space and situation,

567
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,719
Speaker 1: and that helps them to kind of be more tender

568
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: and compassionate with themselves when they find themselves being stuck nice.

569
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: Those are great resources, so of course we will definitely

570
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: include those in the show notes. And where can we

571
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: find you you Nea? What is your website for your

572
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: practice as well as any social media handles you want

573
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: to share for my practice? It's springfourth Counseling dot org

574
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: and I'm also on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram as Springforth

575
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: Counseling as well. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for

576
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: sharing with us today, you ned I really appreciate it.

577
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. This is a

578
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: joy to talk to you. No planning to me. I'm

579
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: so glad you Neda was able to share her expertise

580
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: with us today. To find out more information about her

581
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: and her practice or the resources that she shared, be

582
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: sure to check out at our show notes at Therapy

583
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash Session one thirty. Please

584
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: remember to share this episode with two people in your circle,

585
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: and don't forget to share your takeaways with us either

586
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: on Twitter or in your i G stories using the

587
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: hashtag tv G in session. Remember that if you're searching

588
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, be sure to check

589
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot

590
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging

591
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: into this topic and meet some other systems in your area,

592
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Yellow Couch Collective,

593
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: where we take a deeper dive into the topics from

594
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: the podcast and just about everything else. You can join

595
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y

596
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: c C. Thank you all so much for joining me

597
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continue in this

598
00:33:49,520 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take it care mind,

599
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: Candy the BT Switch