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Speaker 1: Clean your Gun, Janioro, where the Uncollective show Colin Hunters

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Speaker 1: New and all uncollective show with thanks or fancs that

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Speaker 1: opinions are subjective. You're listening to the collecting. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am,

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Speaker 1: of course Ben O'Brien, and I'm enjoined by Phil t Engineer.

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Speaker 1: What did you did you just take a drink of something? There? Phil?

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Speaker 1: What was that? It wasn't a white claw? Wasn't no? No,

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Speaker 1: it's ten. I guess it is new on a Friday.

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Speaker 1: I'd say it's it's open season for white claws, but

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Speaker 1: it's been open season for at least three hours now.

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Speaker 1: This is a peach pair Lacroix Peach pear, peach pear

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Speaker 1: Classic one. If they're more odd flavors, that I think

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Speaker 1: is actually pretty good. Lastly, gentleman, well, we got a

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Speaker 1: big recruitment news today. Um. Not only are we gonna

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Speaker 1: have Nuri Hong on from our California chapter, which which

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Speaker 1: is by far our hottest chapter. I'm gonna say I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna use the term hottest chapter of all the chapters

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Speaker 1: we have in the t HD Cults uh chapters I

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Speaker 1: don't know how. I still don't know how to kind

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Speaker 1: of like articulate what's going on there. But so we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have nurra da. Nobody does Nouri's coming in a minute,

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Speaker 1: but me and Phil more like, I just had a

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Speaker 1: brilliant idea about how to get more listeners. We were

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Speaker 1: just checking on our WiFi and I had an idea.

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Speaker 1: You gotta there's somebody near you that has interesting WiFi name.

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Speaker 1: Do they not feel? Yeah, you know, some people try

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Speaker 1: to be funny and tell their jokes through their WiFi

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Speaker 1: their router names. I say, don't do that. You're not

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Speaker 1: as funny as you think you are. But there's someone

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Speaker 1: in my neighborhood who has their WiFi router is named

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Speaker 1: bark Dogs Screaming Toddler, which is just a very passive,

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Speaker 1: aggressive message to a lot of the young families in

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Speaker 1: this neighborhood. Uh And personally, I'm offended. Maybe it's an

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Speaker 1: admission of guilt. It's like a thing that they're saying,

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Speaker 1: I have barking dogs and screaming Toddler's I'm sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: That's maybe you know label me if you must, I've

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Speaker 1: got I just pulled mine up, I've got Bippie link

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Speaker 1: Demon Portal. It's amish time. The viper pit and the

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Speaker 1: viper pit guest, uh make WiFi great again? Two G

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Speaker 1: Marty mcwifi. Five G WiFi is solid. That's a good one.

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Speaker 1: That's a good back. That's funny. That's pretty good. All right,

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Speaker 1: Well I'll take it. I that literally, I just clicked

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Speaker 1: on that. I've never written any of those before, and

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm proud of my neighbors. Uh So, if you're

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Speaker 1: one of my neighbors, well done. Um. But I think

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Speaker 1: here's an idea of how to you know, grow the

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Speaker 1: podcast underground. If you have WiFi, which I'm assuming that

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Speaker 1: you do, name it each either name it Phil T.

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Speaker 1: Mango or you can also name it like listen to

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Speaker 1: the Hunting Collective podcast. And if we get thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands of wifis named after our podcast, I think we'll

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Speaker 1: grow intrinsically. When people are accidentally connect to the Hunting

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Speaker 1: Collective Podcast WiFi, they're not gonna know what to do about.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna have to listen at that point once they're connected,

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Speaker 1: right Phil, Uh yeah, Ben, sure they'll have to. Okay, Thanks,

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Speaker 1: I thanks for your support as always, I before we

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Speaker 1: get to anything else, I do want to say big,

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Speaker 1: big stuff coming up in uh in my life. It's

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Speaker 1: Turkey season. I told you last week about the turkey

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Speaker 1: tour we're doing with the First Light a little bit

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Speaker 1: more detail. We're doing a four state turkey tour. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna tell you what the states are. Please don't try

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Speaker 1: to come find me. I'm trying to avoid you. Um

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Speaker 1: so if you want to come home with me, please email.

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Speaker 1: Don't just try to find me in the woods. We

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Speaker 1: are doing Montana and then South Dakota and then Wyoming

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Speaker 1: and then Nebraska. Four states two weeks. I will be

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Speaker 1: out in the field for two straight weeks. Most of

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Speaker 1: that time I spent sleeping on the ground in a

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Speaker 1: tent or in a truck or something dirt bag like.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't be more excited for this, Phil How do you?

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Speaker 1: Does that sound like something you would want to do?

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Speaker 1: Two weeks in the dirt chase around turkeys. You gotta

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Speaker 1: get up at like four every morning, go bet at

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Speaker 1: like man, I say nine. Uh, it's relentless. But I

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Speaker 1: got seven turkey tags I could possibly fill within those

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Speaker 1: fourteen days. I mean, I'm excited for you. Ben Um,

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Speaker 1: I've never been happier for you. I think you're you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have a great time. What what about when I

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Speaker 1: had my child, like a year ago. Where do you

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Speaker 1: have you're happier now than then? Well, I'm just trying

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Speaker 1: to gauge your happiness, and to be honest, like you

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Speaker 1: seem way more stoked about this turky, this Turkey tour

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Speaker 1: than than having a child. So I'm just feeding off

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Speaker 1: of your energy here. Okay, don't blame it on me,

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Speaker 1: But I was just thinking, because we have we haven't

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Speaker 1: really got into like the actual logistics of the hunt

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do the first week of May. People stop

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Speaker 1: asking when Phil's first son is. By the way, it's

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Speaker 1: the first week in I've been saying it for months.

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Speaker 1: First week I may, Um, that's when it's happening. But

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Speaker 1: but would you would you go out for with me

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Speaker 1: for like a week and sleep in tents and chase

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Speaker 1: turkeys or would you do you think you would you

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Speaker 1: eventually grow tired of such exercise. I could probably last

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Speaker 1: last one week, okay, one week, not not much longer.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's that's nothing against you. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I could last longer than a week with

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Speaker 1: with anybody except for like my my wife. Uh, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to

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Speaker 1: secretly gauge where you're at here, how many how many

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Speaker 1: nights I can make you sleep outside to find a turkey? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can tell, Which is why, which is why I'm

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Speaker 1: being kg. I'm trying to I'm not trying to open

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Speaker 1: the door for anything. So okay, you don't want me

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Speaker 1: to be like, hey man, I got a plan. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that's fine, That's all fine and that. So hopefully you

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Speaker 1: guys can all follow along what I'm doing many of

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Speaker 1: the three or one on Instagram, I'll be posting all

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Speaker 1: kinds of stuff there. But we are doing a bit

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Speaker 1: of a tell than for the National Wild Turkey Federation.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about ways to raise money for them, and

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Speaker 1: really they're their primary source of funding is through memberships,

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Speaker 1: and so we're gonna be working with first Light, uh

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Speaker 1: to promote over those two weeks that were gone, to

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Speaker 1: promote the fact that we're out there, and then pushing

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Speaker 1: people to a page on the First Light website where

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Speaker 1: you can sign up for your NBTF membership or renew

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Speaker 1: it and you'll have a chance at a bunch of

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Speaker 1: awesome prizes cool gifts if you take part and sign

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Speaker 1: up for membership on that portal through first Light. So

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Speaker 1: if you want to get more details, this will be

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Speaker 1: coming out, you know, uh, next week when I'm already

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Speaker 1: on the road. I'm already doing this. So when you're

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Speaker 1: listening to this, you'll be able to go to first

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Speaker 1: Light social media account, You'll be able to first light

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Speaker 1: dot com. Keep checking there, and this will debut at

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Speaker 1: some point when around in the field, and it'll go

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Speaker 1: for two weeks, so they'll probably some delay in terms

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Speaker 1: of us making the content and get into the air waves.

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Speaker 1: But um, we'll be checking in next week from Turkey

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Speaker 1: Camp with the likes of Kevin Harland or probably for

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Speaker 1: Van Fawsen, Jason Tara Water from n WTF. We've got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of wildlife biologists from the areas that will

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Speaker 1: be hunting, that will be filling us in on the

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Speaker 1: specific projects from those states. So I'm excited to go

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Speaker 1: Turkey out but also excited to shed some light on

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Speaker 1: the important projects at least in the West. For n

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Speaker 1: WTF gets you to meet some of their folks and

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Speaker 1: hopefully raise some money for them and get some memberships

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Speaker 1: in the door because as we mentioned, uh, they'll be

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Speaker 1: losing some of those this year without really the gatherings

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Speaker 1: and the banquets and the things that they would normally do.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully we can help them. And then I'll be returning,

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Speaker 1: and all my focus when I return will be on Phil.

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Speaker 1: I already wrote that in my journal. Don't forget about Phil,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna stick to Okay, Phil, We're good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks Man means a lot, no, no, no problem, no problem.

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Speaker 1: All right. Now we gotta bring in Nury Nuri. Can

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Speaker 1: you hear me? Are you there? I'm here? All right? Um,

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Speaker 1: so we got a lot. There's a lot of things

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you. But first, um, how is

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Speaker 1: it that you came to to be involved in in

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Speaker 1: our one, our California chapter, but to just like what

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Speaker 1: was as I asked when we had Luke from Nebraska

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Speaker 1: last time, what what is the motivation to do what

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Speaker 1: you're doing right now in the California chapter of our

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Speaker 1: podcast Cult Thing? Sure? Well, first off, thanks for letting

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Speaker 1: me come on and represent what we're doing and talk

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Speaker 1: about it. H And if I talk in ramble too much.

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Speaker 1: Just tell me to shut up, because I'm very excited

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Speaker 1: about it, and I think I represent the excitement and

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm amongst all the chapter leaders. Um, it's pretty cool

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Speaker 1: and exciting what we're doing. So for myself, list be calm.

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Speaker 1: You're on a podcast. You can talk for hours and

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Speaker 1: I don't think anybody minds. All right, go. So to

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Speaker 1: answer your question, I'm a new hunter. I at this

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Speaker 1: stage of my life. I've been learning, listening to podcasts, reading,

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Speaker 1: getting accommated to this entire culture. Um. I come from

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Speaker 1: a completely a background where I am not prepared to

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Speaker 1: go out and hunt. Um. So this is something that

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Speaker 1: I've been building towards and I really want to learn

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Speaker 1: how to hunt personally. And I've been listening to your

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Speaker 1: podcast for a long time. And when this opportunity or

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Speaker 1: this whole initiative started to take some uh you know,

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Speaker 1: started to take off in your grassroots way, I just

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Speaker 1: thought I should raise my hand because I want to

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Speaker 1: one participate in what's going on with with connecting mentors

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Speaker 1: and men and mentees. But I also felt that just

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Speaker 1: building a community was really important. It's something that I

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Speaker 1: personally don't have. Um, I don't have many friends or

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Speaker 1: any really that hunt. And I thought if we can

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Speaker 1: create a community that that would be valuable to everybody.

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Speaker 1: And if we create that community, what could that become

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Speaker 1: in terms of beyond just teaching people how to hunt?

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Speaker 1: But what can we do to educate other people who

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Speaker 1: may not appreciate hunters as much? And how do we

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Speaker 1: get them to appreciate what I've learned along this journey.

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Speaker 1: And that's really my personal motivation of wanting to do this,

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Speaker 1: because I want to share what I've learned with everyone else,

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Speaker 1: whether or not they want to hunt, hunt or just

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Speaker 1: understand it. I want to educate as many people as possible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it sounds a lot, a lot like where

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Speaker 1: I came from when I started this podcast. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like you, you want to share what you've learned.

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Speaker 1: You understand that there are so many perspectives coming in

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Speaker 1: to the hunting space and within and without of course,

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Speaker 1: um and it's been great. I mean, what do you, guys,

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Speaker 1: what you have done in such a short time number

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Speaker 1: from raising your hand on, I will commend you as

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Speaker 1: being probably you know, the most thoughtful and leadership oriented

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Speaker 1: one of our chapter leaders, and so uh kudos to that.

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Speaker 1: It's been fun to see you one, UM, come together

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Speaker 1: with a bunch of people from across this country that

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Speaker 1: have amazingly different backgrounds, you know, to see you guys

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Speaker 1: interacting in the way that we have thus far has

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Speaker 1: been uh is I would there's no other word than

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Speaker 1: than joyous for me to see UM as kind of

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Speaker 1: the realization of some things I've had in my mind

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Speaker 1: for a long time. So first, thank you for that, UM,

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Speaker 1: And I want to get an update on on how

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Speaker 1: it's going in on your chapter page on Facebook. But

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Speaker 1: then just you know, I know you're prepared to update

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Speaker 1: us on on everything that's going on, but let's start

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Speaker 1: with California. Sure, UM, And by the way, I appreciate

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Speaker 1: your comments around you know, just my voice and what's

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Speaker 1: been going on. I actually want to say one thing

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Speaker 1: before get started around that, because that's probably the biggest

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Speaker 1: takeaway what you've been trying to do in this mission

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Speaker 1: of educating people, articulating what is it that you find

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Speaker 1: valuable and these ethics that you believe in and these

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Speaker 1: more you know, these values that you believe in. That

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Speaker 1: for me has been the excitement of everybody involved wanting

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Speaker 1: to share that and then also accepting someone like me

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Speaker 1: is incredibly powerful. The fact that we this is a

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Speaker 1: These are viewpoints that unite all of us, despite our

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Speaker 1: backgrounds and diverse you know, political perspectives, cultural perspectives. We've

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Speaker 1: all come into this and it's almost like this, uh,

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Speaker 1: the community of people that immediate have a bond and

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Speaker 1: love each other. And I think that's what you're reflecting,

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Speaker 1: is that excitement that everyone has felt. So I just

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Speaker 1: want to say thank you for giving us the opportunity

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Speaker 1: because it's been empowering to all of us to see

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Speaker 1: what we can do. And I think that that's building

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Speaker 1: a lot of momentum around this whole initiative. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: said that a few times, you guys, We've don't We've

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Speaker 1: we've gathered like love you guys, And I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: kind of mean that, man, but just in a in

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Speaker 1: a way that I don't know you, but conceptually I

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Speaker 1: love you guys, um and and I think that's it's

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Speaker 1: it's because of what you just said. And one thing

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Speaker 1: that I would reflect on from from that is when

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Speaker 1: when people can come together around complex issues that are

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Speaker 1: hard to figure out, it is generally the antithesis of

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Speaker 1: what we see in our culture right now. People are

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Speaker 1: being divided by complex issues. We're chopping those issues up

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Speaker 1: and using them to to cudgel each other, um, and

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Speaker 1: to divide and when we can all kind of be

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Speaker 1: able like, yeah, we appreciate these complex ideas. We may

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Speaker 1: not agree, but boy, let's go let's see what we

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Speaker 1: can figure out. You know that to me is is

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Speaker 1: is this uh beautiful thing as we can get to

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Speaker 1: so point to be made completely agree. And I think

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Speaker 1: to that point, as we as we give you the

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Speaker 1: update around what's going on nationally with our our regional chapters,

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Speaker 1: I think that another key point is we have let

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Speaker 1: me look at my numbers here. I took some notes here,

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Speaker 1: thirty five active regional chapters, thirty six including Nevada. This

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Speaker 1: includes Australia, Canada, a military chapter, and you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple of regions that have been multi states combined. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the incredible things of that enrollment,

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Speaker 1: just in such a short period of time, it does

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Speaker 1: speak to the fact that hunters and people who are

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Speaker 1: interested in this are everywhere and it's not a political,

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Speaker 1: you know issue, it's not a partisan issue. People who

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Speaker 1: have the values and the interests in the ethics that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about are everywhere. And again, I think that

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Speaker 1: speaks to the fact of what this can become in

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Speaker 1: terms of a uniting issue and overcoming some of the

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Speaker 1: division that we see in our society day. I mean personally,

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Speaker 1: that's part of what has motivated me to join this

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Speaker 1: because I want to share that just like you said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's great man. Um, how many totals? Did you get?

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Speaker 1: The number of total people we have in all those

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Speaker 1: in those thirty six So let me give you the total.

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Speaker 1: So are totals right now as of uh, let's see yesterday,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yesterday afternoon we have Um, I'm sorry, let

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Speaker 1: me get the numbers. A little over total members across

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Speaker 1: the states. So again, that's thirty five chapters that are

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Speaker 1: active with sites today. The top ten regional chapters have

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Speaker 1: account for about seventy one of total membership. That's seven

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Speaker 1: regions that have over one hundred members apiece. A number

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Speaker 1: of regions have members and a number of other remaining

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Speaker 1: regions have you know, a variety depending on just when

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Speaker 1: they got started and how active they've been to date. UM.

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Speaker 1: With regards to the top ten States. California is leading

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Speaker 1: the way with six hundred and fifty. I think it's

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Speaker 1: actually six hundred sixty as of this morning. UM. That's

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Speaker 1: followed by Arizona and our admin leader, Markdale and they

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Speaker 1: have two hundred. Montana admin leader Lewis Johnson with one.

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Speaker 1: Two in Colorado led by ryan' septa and Riley Nelson

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Speaker 1: was on and I'll just finish the other top two

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Speaker 1: with over a hundred. Washington State led by Chris Stalker

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Speaker 1: has a hundred and fourteen. Australia led by Zach Slattery

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Speaker 1: has a hundred and thirteen. And Zach is amazing guy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's awesome. I think we've named

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Speaker 1: him the three Eyed Raven or the Thunder from down Under,

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Speaker 1: depending on which nickname you want to pick. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not gonna go Thunder from down Under.

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Speaker 1: That's been taken. I just say it's not fair, Zach

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Speaker 1: that you have an entire continent. I just don't you know,

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Speaker 1: come on, you should have thousands by now. But now

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Speaker 1: I will say this this as a as a little

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Speaker 1: interstitial to your to your numbers run down, Phil, you

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Speaker 1: have been ound on Facebook, so your your account has

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Speaker 1: been discovered. And I didn't make it very difficult to

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Speaker 1: find me. Here's here's my name, and here's what my

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Speaker 1: profile picture is. And I have gotten hundreds of friend requests.

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Speaker 1: I haven't approved a single one of them. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: have been outed, av Rich shout out to a by risk.

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Speaker 1: He was the first one to out you. Uh, it's

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Speaker 1: your your account, filthy e with that beautiful photo of

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Speaker 1: the mountains at the end of the road. I think

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Speaker 1: I googled mountain. So you've been outed. Your your your

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Speaker 1: burner account is now public. Uh, even though you said

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Speaker 1: it in public last last week, but they found you,

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Speaker 1: and you're now you're gonna have to do something. Join

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Speaker 1: one of the chapters. Uh, and maybe all the chapters.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna have to do something. It's time to step up.

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Speaker 1: Nurry's over here. He's running a biotech company in his

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Speaker 1: free time, you know. And uh, what have you got

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Speaker 1: going on? Nothing? You're just editing podcasts? Point Yeah, get

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Speaker 1: it together. Okay, we'd like to see some performance out

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Speaker 1: of you. Phil. Are you going to join the Montana Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not gonna let We're not letting you into the

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Speaker 1: leader page because you've not yet earned that you've got

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Speaker 1: to go out there and get You've got to go

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Speaker 1: out there and get and you know, get involved on

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Speaker 1: the state and regional level. Please, how you guys keep talking,

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Speaker 1: I'll do it live on the podcast. I will join

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Speaker 1: the Montana chapter. Oh my gosh, we've done it. We

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Speaker 1: finally got Phil his hunter safety course took six months

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Speaker 1: and only took him two weeks to join a chapter

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Speaker 1: of the Hunting Collective. Welcome Philly, I've done it. Soon

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Speaker 1: you'll be a new hunter, and then all will have

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Speaker 1: been solved, all the world's new hunt and hunter problems

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Speaker 1: will have been solved. Um Ner, You've got a bunch

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Speaker 1: of you've been posting, and I've been reading them all,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of really cool stories, not only from your

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Speaker 1: page and your chapter in California, but from across uh M,

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Speaker 1: across the country. But I would I would love for

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Speaker 1: you to go into a couple of stories that you've

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Speaker 1: had well of new hunters, and we had one particularly

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Speaker 1: disabled hunter who's just out there kicking ass. Like, give

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Speaker 1: us a few few folks you'd like to highlight from

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Speaker 1: from across that two thousand person number. Absolutely, And I

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Speaker 1: gotta say before I do that, sorry, I forgot. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to call out my co co leader in California,

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Speaker 1: Jordan Rigsby. So Jordan and I tag team and we

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Speaker 1: leave that chapter the way that I would describe that

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Speaker 1: as Jordan is the QYB of this effort, and I'm

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Speaker 1: a loud cheerleader on the bench that's looking to get

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Speaker 1: in the game. So I do write a lot and

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Speaker 1: I make a lot of noise, but I wanted to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge Jordan's and everything that he's done to really help

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Speaker 1: recruit the numbers in California. And I also want to

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Speaker 1: give a shout out to his his friend Brad Gillipsby Gillespie,

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Speaker 1: who's part of our our chapter and the Gillespie fan

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Speaker 1: our clan, sorry of Alan, Brittany and Brad have each

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Speaker 1: recruited hundreds of members. So I just wanted to give

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Speaker 1: a shout out to some key people who have been

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Speaker 1: really influential and just getting this off the ground, especially

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Speaker 1: Jordan's my my co chapter leader, and and you guys

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Speaker 1: didn't know each other before this, right, No, we we met.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know a single person involved in this until

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Speaker 1: this started. And like I said, we've had so many

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Speaker 1: you know, earlier. We have had many happy hours together

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Speaker 1: and it feels like I've got new friends in every

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Speaker 1: state and friends that are willing to show me out

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Speaker 1: to hunt, and you know, I just want to spend

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Speaker 1: time together. So it's pretty cool, I just said selfishly.

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Speaker 1: Now I have a place to hunt in all most

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Speaker 1: most of the states in the nation, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: you gotta get something out of a cult. So I'll

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Speaker 1: provide the cool. Uh. Tell us about some cool people. Man,

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Speaker 1: all right, so let's tart. I mean, just a couple

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Speaker 1: of really great initiatives that have been going on in successes.

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Speaker 1: So I want to first give a shout out to

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Speaker 1: all the other regions who I've been putting together activities

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Speaker 1: and making connections. So, you know, within California, I'll go

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Speaker 1: into a couple of of of really cool examples of successes.

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Speaker 1: But I also want to give a shout out to

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Speaker 1: all the other states that have been leading things like

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Speaker 1: clean up days UH, inaugural meet and greets UH. Aaron Shawn,

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma had a crawfish boil to get everyone together. Many

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Speaker 1: states have organized archery you know, UM sessions together UM,

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Speaker 1: and a number of states have also started to connect

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Speaker 1: mentors with mentees, either through the admins helping out or

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Speaker 1: just natural connections that have been made. So I want

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Speaker 1: to call out those states like Washington, Colorado, North Dakota,

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Speaker 1: Blue Ridge, our own Eric Hall. A lot of good

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Speaker 1: mentorship going on, even in the early days of this program.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome, man. I I uh, if I could be like,

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Speaker 1: if you guys are having gets, you just try to

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Speaker 1: zoom me in. I'd like to at least like pop

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Speaker 1: into one or two of them if I can. My

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Speaker 1: wife might get mad eventually, but I'd love to. I

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Speaker 1: love to virtually crawfish boil. It's almost like, uh, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that would be great if we could do that.

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00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: And also you may regret asking for them because remember

401
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 1: invites you're gonna be getting. I think we'll be uh

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00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 1: maybe too much to handle. Phil. Phil will take any

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Speaker 1: trickle down that I If I can't get there, Phil,

404
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 1: can Phil can be there, right Phil? I mean if

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Speaker 1: I get to eat some crawfish, then hell yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We gotta see what our travel budget is for Phil.

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00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: But we we could probably just fly filled pretty much

408
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 1: every event and they'll come. They can only be there

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00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: for ten minutes because he's gonna be really busy. But

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Speaker 1: ten minutes of Phil is a good is good? Cal.

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Speaker 1: This reminds me of something Cal brings up. This is

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Speaker 1: a sneak peek for next week's Meet Eater podcast. They

413
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: were talking about how this cow sometimes gets a lot

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00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 1: of speaking engagements when it's stuff that Steve can't do.

415
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, we'll send Cal. Uh, that'll be like me.

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00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 1: I'll be there. I'll be the cow of this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Ben Ben can't show up, We'll just send, We'll send. Yeah. Yeah,

418
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: And we already did you already tried to grow a mustache,

419
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: and uh, I'd like to see you do it again.

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00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: Can you start growing a mustache? Can you start start

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00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: growing one now and then shave it off when you

422
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Speaker 1: kill a turkey? No, I grew I grew one mustache

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Speaker 1: for you already been that was. That's all all you're

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Speaker 1: gonna get from me. I'm so skimpy. I miss you.

425
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 1: That was a good That was a good couple of months.

426
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 1: And that's back when we saw each other almost every

427
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 1: day and I could really track the progress of skimpy.

428
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: And you want to go, you gotta see my mustache earlier.

429
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 1: That's uh, full full on right here. Well, I mean

430
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: we we uh you know what I should. I gotta

431
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: I gotta promote the Burgeraese podcast. That's just all reminds

432
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 1: me of that. But I'm gonna read you guys a

433
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 1: really good a Bargrease podcast with Clay Nucombe review in

434
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: a second. But we gotta get you, gotta tell us

435
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: about I think we probably have time for one story

436
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: from you. All right, here we go, here we go.

437
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: So let me just give a couple of highlights from

438
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: our group. You mentioned a disabled hunter in our group,

439
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: so I want to call out Eric Baker. So Eric

440
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: is an inspiration to all. He's the ultimate no barrier

441
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: is to a great story. Uh just briefly or it's

442
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: a lifelong passionate outdoorsman. He's now disabled to various conditions

443
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: that have that have afflicted him. He's wheelchair bound. But

444
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: Eric has been one of the most inspirational and generous

445
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: mentors on our site. He's offered his time, education and

446
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: tips on the side and in person to various people.

447
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: He's already established a mentee education day this coming Saturday

448
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: with a young new mentor in the area, and he's

449
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 1: shown everybody what's possible. So he has he's wheelchair bound,

450
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: and in the three weeks that we've had this site up,

451
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: he's already posted a successful hunt for pheasant turkey and uh,

452
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: you know other accomplishments that he's he's had mentoring his grandkids. UM,

453
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: and he's just an incredible inspiration to anybody who thinks

454
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: that there's any reason that you can't get into the

455
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: woods and learn how to hunt. Eric is I think

456
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: someone that inspires all of us to say, you know,

457
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: there's no barrier too great and there's nothing that should

458
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: stop you from enjoying time outside. UM. Eric also has

459
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think I want to raise an issue

460
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: related to his his situation, which is I don't think

461
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: we talked about disability and hunting. At least that's not

462
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: something that I've heard of or have you know, put

463
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: on my radar screen. And Eric, you know, I think

464
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: is somebody who is really trying to make that an

465
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: issue that is more um, that's something that that people

466
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: are more aware of. And he has a go fund

467
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: me account to try to raise money for his own

468
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: There are four by four altering adaptability vehicles for folks

469
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: who are disabled to help them get around outside in

470
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: the outdoors. And so this is basically like a four

471
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: by four type of vehicle that can help disabled people.

472
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: And he has a good fund me account. So I

473
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: encouraged for people who want to support this kind of

474
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: this community to you know, to support people like Eric,

475
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 1: both in terms of you know, anything that you can

476
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: do on you know, his his go fund me to

477
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: to raise money for this altering vehicle, but also I

478
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: think that we should do that because he represents I think,

479
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: the best of mentorship and what we want to get

480
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: out of this community. Um, and I would like to

481
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: raise a artist around disability because it's not something that

482
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: that our California Wildlife Department has a program around, and

483
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: it's something that Eric and others I think are trying

484
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: to make, you know, in an effort to to get

485
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: some attention around. Yeah, that's um extremely important and I

486
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: will pledge right now. I'll get some information from me,

487
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: maybe a picture whatever Eric wants to share, and get

488
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: that link and I'll post that up on my social

489
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: media so people can can go and find that go

490
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: fund me page and just go find Eric and uh yeah,

491
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: imagine that people, Um, anyone would like a place to

492
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: go or there's a bunch of people who appreciate what

493
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: they do and appreciate their drive for life and can

494
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: can them up as a role model. So if if

495
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: what we're up to, Mark can provide that for anybody,

496
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: especially Eric m. We look to multiply that idea and

497
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: that feeling as much as we can in the coming months, years,

498
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: however long this goes, absolutely and I appreciate that. I

499
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: really do appreciate that. One thing I will say is

500
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: that now I lost my train of thought. You have

501
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: to cut this out, Phil, or maybe just leave it in.

502
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: You're not even listening, are you. I'm petting a cat,

503
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: but I'm listening. What do you? Are you petting Kevin?

504
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: Or meat loaf? I bet it's a meat loaf. That's Kevin,

505
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: Kevin the son of a bitch. All right, I know,

506
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: I ramble a lot. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you

507
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: one more case example. Yeah, I go. We had a

508
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: successful mentorship hid this past weekend. So A, a relatively

509
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: new hunter, Jen lenn lives in the Bay Area, joined

510
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: the chapter about a week ago. Um immediately asked for

511
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: mentorship help because she's a somewhat experienced duck hunter but

512
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: once you know good out there and go after other game.

513
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: I saw people respond to her and say that, you know,

514
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 1: they were going to private message or DM her. She

515
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: also not completely organized by our site, but she had

516
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: a mentor who has helped her in the past, a

517
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: woman by the name of Belinda Dods. And both of

518
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: these two have an incredible story. So one well, Linda

519
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: is a professional guide. Uh, this is a career change

520
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: for her. So she got into hunting after a life

521
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: in corporate America and over the last four years has

522
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: established herself as a guide and one of her key

523
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: initiatives is really taking a new hunter and mentoring them

524
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: for free, not with guided guided services. In the past

525
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: she's helped with other game and they were able to

526
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: go out and get into the Turkey Woods and get

527
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: Jen her first caller of this past weekend UM and

528
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: Jen has become an incredibly active member both in terms

529
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: of representing what you know, not being afraid as a

530
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: mentee to go ask for help on our board, but

531
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: also just an incredible encouraging voy is to other people

532
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: that are looking for that kind of support. And I

533
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: would say that Melinda also represents I think the best

534
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: of the you know, the professional guided community because we

535
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: have a number of guides like I'll call out Bryson

536
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: Welsh and Billy Rourke. These are guides who have a

537
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: full time job but have offered time education and you know,

538
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: their services in non paid you know, capacities as a

539
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: mentor as well. And these are the kind of folks

540
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: that are showing up on our board and encouraging all

541
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: of us, like myself in other words, that haven't hunted,

542
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: uh you know, how to get started, giving us encouragement,

543
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: giving us advice, and also getting out in the field

544
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: and taking people out there. So I just wanted to

545
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: highlight gen and Milinda because it's pretty kick ass that

546
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: these girls have gone out there. They've they've they've established

547
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: this relationship between a mentor and mentee and are really

548
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: trying to take that and bring that to the rest

549
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: of the community, which is really the kind of culture

550
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: and the uh you know, the nature of the dialogue

551
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: that's been going on our site. So that's you know,

552
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: I think if we can build on that kind of experience,

553
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that we are you know,

554
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: really excited to be able to offer everybody within our group. Yeah,

555
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: I mean you know, and that it just pushes this this,

556
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: these kind of sources to push all of us like,

557
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: how can we how can we do better? Even though

558
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: we've gathered on these pages. If you're not if you've

559
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: listened to this podcast and you've never emailed or interacted

560
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: with me or anyone else, and you don't want to,

561
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: you don't have to. But boy, if, if, if ever

562
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: there was a chance to go and get involved in

563
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: something that can really help you on a personal level,

564
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: whether you're mentoring or your need in need of mentoring.

565
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: I I've, like I've said before on this show, I

566
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: get nothing. There's there's nothing more satisfying than mentoring somebody

567
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: and showing them what you what you know and and

568
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: and introducing them into your passion. There's nothing better man,

569
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: and to see to see you know you Nuri like

570
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: and and Jordan's leading a group of people that are

571
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: are then forming their own, you know, individual missions within

572
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: that is is exactly the point of of what we're

573
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: up to. So couldn't be more proud to be a

574
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: part of that, Bet, I mean really thank you for

575
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: giving us and everybody that's had the benefit of being

576
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: part of these communities to connect honestly, I think that

577
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, maybe my answer earlier was it could have

578
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: been much more simple. The value of this is connection,

579
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: the connection of the community and everything that we all

580
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: share as values, and that's I think what we want

581
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: to spread to the world. Yeah. Awesome man, well well,

582
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 1: very well put, well spoken as always, and I appreciate

583
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: having you around. Um, we're gonna do a chapter leader

584
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: happy hour here not for long from now hof last

585
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: see there as well. UM. But again I can't say

586
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: anymore but that I'm proud to be a part of this,

587
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: and and thank you to everybody that's joined. And if

588
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: you haven't joined, you can go and easily google uh

589
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: it'll be th HC. And then the state or region

590
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: that you're looking for. And if and of course, as

591
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: many of you have done, send me a message if

592
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: you can't find it or you're having trouble uh getting

593
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: too where you need to be in terms of the

594
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: state or region that you're in. UM, happy to drop

595
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: a link in your inbox or your d M s

596
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: or something. If you're confused or you can't find and

597
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: you want to get in there and connect with folks

598
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: like Nuri. This is your chance to do it and

599
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: now we got to get to fill the return of

600
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: doctor Robert C. Jones. Are you ready for this? Yes?

601
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 1: I am, let's do it. I have actually no, wait

602
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: a minute, let's do it again. Are you ready for this? Phil?

603
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: You're yawning? And it's what do you want me to say? Ben? What?

604
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: What reaction would you like me to have? Would like

605
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: you to have that tone? Just tell what you just heard? Inspiring?

606
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: Nuri's inspiring the world over here, and you're just like

607
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: pet and a cat, you know, like, what the hell

608
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: is wrong with you? Get you? I can't wait to

609
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: get you in the Turkey woods. I'm gonna make you.

610
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna you know what the guides used to say.

611
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: They would would make people go on a disciplinary hike.

612
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: When a client was acting up. They would just take

613
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: him for a walk all day and never even actually

614
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: look for deer. Um, I'm and I have to take

615
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: you in a couple of those kids. And I know

616
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: my lane near he's out here doing important inspiring work. Uh.

617
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: And I I'm betting you know you couldn't have made

618
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: me look worse by saying he's petting a cat, But

619
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: I was. I was petting a cat. Well, nery was

620
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: that's fine. You look, you look great. Man. Cats don't

621
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: pet themselves, well I guess they kind of do, so,

622
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, take care of your You're being an animal

623
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: rights kind of guy, exactly. Phil the animal rights representative

624
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: for the THHD podcast. That's right, thank you, we love you,

625
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: Phil Um. When I asked Robert C. Jones, I talked

626
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 1: to him like a week ago, and I said, listen, man,

627
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this idea of the North American

628
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: model the wildlife conservation and how to either fuse this

629
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: animal rights ideology into it or at least create a

630
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: parallel universe where there is a model that that it

631
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: lease takes into account animal rights and the way that

632
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: they think about wildlife. So I've asked him to do that.

633
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: I gave him a couple of days to prepare and

634
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: we will see what he can do. Right now, enjoy

635
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: dr Robert C. Jones for the third time. Robert, how

636
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: are you, sir? Ben O'Brien, it's it's so good to

637
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: connect with you once again. Oh man, it is good

638
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: to see you. And uh, you're drinking a Seltzer water.

639
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: I am going with a white claw because it is Friday,

640
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: and uh this is the mood that I'm in. Um,

641
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: how are you, sir, how are you? I'm doing well.

642
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: I can't complain. Uh, you know, it's I mean, aside

643
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: from that the fact that there's a global pandemic at

644
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: least it's looking like it's coming to an end. But

645
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: I'll do than that. It's the middle of the semester

646
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: of my students are getting ancy for May to come,

647
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: so I think I'm getting ancy from May to come.

648
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, same here, same here. I think in in

649
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: in our part of the world, every time the sun shines,

650
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 1: people just run outside. They don't know what they're doing

651
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: out there, but they're out there. A lot of people, yeah,

652
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people. A lot more hunters out there,

653
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: a lot more hikers and bikers and people that are

654
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: wanted to spend time outside, which I enjoy. All the

655
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: way around, people are going stir crazy. So I get

656
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: I get it. Damn I get it. Damn right, damn right. Well,

657
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: I told you there's a lot of things we could

658
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: talk about. But I told you that, Uh we've had

659
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 1: since we've last talked to you. I think we talked

660
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: you what over the summer there in the middle of

661
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: the lockdown or at some point. Yeah, it was the

662
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: last summer. Yeah. Yeah. Since then, we've had some other

663
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: conversations with animal rights activists, particularly fella named Paul the Sheer,

664
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: who uh is the head of this thing called Anonymous

665
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: for the voiceless animal rights activists, And it was it

666
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: was a contentious conversation, but also at the end, I

667
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: think we both appreciated each other much much more than

668
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: we did than we did going in. He came into

669
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: it quite combative, um, but at the end we were

670
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: we both pretty much felt pretty good about each other. Um.

671
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: We didn't walk away hand in hand, but we gained

672
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: some respect there, which I was happy about. But since

673
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: since we got into that idea with him, we got

674
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: essentially I need that conversation with him, I should say.

675
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: There's just been an idea float around in my head.

676
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: And I mentioned on the podcast a bunch that we

677
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: have this North American model of wildlife conservation. I talked

678
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: about it all the time because it's a model, so

679
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: we can refer to it specifically, right. It's it's something

680
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: that we've explicitly said that manages the way wildlife functions

681
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: within the current system of game laws and the current

682
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: system of of everything really from um economics to ecology.

683
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: So I wanted to just I've been saying, I wonder

684
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: if we can either do one or two things, achieve

685
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: one or two things. One, take animal ethics and animal

686
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: rights and bake it into the current model and somehow

687
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: make that work as an expression of your You know,

688
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: what you and I have been doing for almost a

689
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: couple of years now is trying to get take one

690
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: step closer to each other after we've we kind of

691
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: started far away and doing that. And then also, is

692
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: there in your mind either a parallel system that could

693
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: work with animal rights or something that you could envision

694
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 1: creating that could you know, either replace or somehow um

695
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: CO exists with our current model. Uh. And so yeah,

696
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: that's where that hasn't that It's been a it's been

697
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: a long exploration of years and years trying to get

698
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: to a point where like, what can we do tangibly

699
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: to discuss this in real ways? And so I wondered

700
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: if if you would take part in that. I don't

701
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: have any answers myself, but I figured if there's anybody,

702
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: I was going to spend an hour trying to figure

703
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: it out. What it would be you. Well, thanks man,

704
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Now, when you said you want to

705
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: you want to talk about real, real world things we

706
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: can do. I think it may have slipped your mind

707
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: that I'm a philosopher by trade, so I'm an amateur philosopher.

708
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: So the philosophers are naturally out of the real world,

709
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: and so everything's at the level of theory. So no,

710
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 1: but you know, as you know, I consider myself an

711
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: activist as well. Um, absolutely, I think. Uh. Well, one

712
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: thing I was wondering, and you could help me too,

713
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 1: is if you can give me what you see as

714
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: a kind of brief summary of what the us um

715
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: kind of management, an overview of what you think the

716
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: maintenance are the policies are sure that essentral to ye

717
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: and I think, Um, and we've had the you know

718
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: kind of it's a long history of the North American model,

719
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: but it was it was really codified by a fellow

720
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: named Dr Valarious Geist who we had on the show

721
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: and he's explained this entire history and then and brought

722
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: to bear by Shane Mahoney who's been on the show

723
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: many many times and it's coming on with us next week. Um.

724
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: He brought it to the masses. He's an incredible order.

725
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: And so really what those guys did was take a

726
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: bunch of ideas that started at the turn of the

727
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: century and really what we could call like a revolution

728
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: um of environmentalism mixed with you know, conservation that happened

729
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: at the turn of the century with Teddy Roosevelt, Um,

730
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: Giveford pin Show, every John Muir, you know, and all

731
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: kind of turned at at the turn of the century.

732
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of legislation that happened in those

733
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: eighty years. It just so happened that Dr Vlarious guy

734
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: said we have a model. He was once challenged that

735
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: there was no model for wildlife conservation in America, and

736
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: he said, we have a model, And by god, he

737
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: went and sat down and wrote the thing. And here

738
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: we are. They actually just put a book out last

739
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: year called The North American Mile of Conservation is on

740
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: my shelf. I'm looking at it, um, and so I

741
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: guess that's this. This model was away um to take

742
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: the things that began in the eighteen sixties where sportsman's

743
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: and advocates for for conservation organized and they're just saying,

744
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: we want to preserve wildlife or preserve wilderness areas we

745
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: want to bring back from the brink many of these

746
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: wildlife populations that us humans real funked up real bad

747
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: over the prior since we landed and landed here. And

748
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: so that's I guess that's the genesis of where this

749
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: came from. And then again somebody had to actually put

750
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: it into words at some point UM. And this goes

751
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: all the way back to the boon A Crockett. So

752
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: the thing has I should probably pull it up side

753
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: and get them wrong. The thing has seven tenants, and

754
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: and those seven tenants are are meant to really elaborate

755
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: on and then kind of build a construct around how

756
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: we manage manage wildlife, how we value wildlife, the purposes

757
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: for which we would kill an animal, and then how

758
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: our system is set up to allow science too to

759
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: be a tool to discharge our wildlife policy. And again

760
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: one of the main tenants is that wildlife is held

761
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: in public trust right by the states. UM. No one

762
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: owns it. If there's a deer on your on your land,

763
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: you don't own that dear. That dear is is a

764
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: public trust and it is managed in kind by the states. UM.

765
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: Given wildlife biology and policy UM is that pretty good

766
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: for a foundational piece of the puzzle. Oh I lost you.

767
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm looking at sorry I got Yeah, that's good. Thanks,

768
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: And I'm looking at the core tenants. I was looking

769
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: at them, yeah, as you spoke with them and so yeah,

770
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: so this I just pulled it up myself. So there's

771
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: seven of them. I always always get them out of

772
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: order or miss them. But wildlife is a public trust,

773
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: which I just which I basically just described, and that

774
00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: has its origins in um, really English common law. Know

775
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: that that really said wild life was owned by the

776
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: ruling class, the aristocracy, UM, which which in some cases,

777
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: by by nature privatized said wildlife. UM. And now we're

778
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: going to say that, you know, wildlife is held in

779
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: trust for the public, and it's going to be managed

780
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: and within that trust by the state and federal governments, UM,

781
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: who we pay with our tax dollars and and with

782
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: our license fees and everything else. UM. And so that

783
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: that's I would say, that's the most important one for

784
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: this model, because what it really does is it grounds

785
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: the other ones. UM. And if anybody wants to go back,

786
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: go back. We we did with Shane Mahoney a full

787
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: rundown of all seven of these, and he gave He

788
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: gave them in like packages like this, this is a package,

789
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: and here's a package, and here's one. They all kind

790
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: of interplay, but they they make sense in this way. Um,

791
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: so you want to go you want to go one

792
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: by one or or go all all the way through? Well,

793
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: I mean we can go one by one. I think

794
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: what I what comes to mind for me is to

795
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: just kind of step back and think about maybe and

796
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: a little bit of a summary or an overview of

797
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: the way that wildlife management is conceptualized in like the

798
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: animal rights community, maybe you know, people who aren't familiar

799
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: with it. I think the first thing that comes to

800
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: mind for me, as you know, when I teach environmental ethics,

801
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: which I do teach, the first thing I want to

802
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: point out, and again, you know, I'm a philosopher, so

803
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: we think we kind of like try to do these

804
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: conceptual analyzes and stuff. The first thing to recognize is

805
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: the notion of wilderness. Right there. Then the concept of

806
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: wilderness that we and say, let's say we in the

807
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: Western let's say we in the United States have it's

808
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: a certain way. You could say it's a it's a construct,

809
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: but it's a way of think being about the world

810
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: that it's not universal, right, I mean, um, the distinction

811
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: if a lot of indigenous cultures indigenous to the United States,

812
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: at least through the histories that we understand, the notion

813
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 1: that there's like a wilderness out there is is a

814
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: weird idea, right. So, so first of all, and of

815
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: course this comes from Europe and stuff, but so so

816
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: the first thing I just want to lay on the

817
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: table is that for many environmental ethicists, the first recognition

818
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: is that the very concept that wilderness is is a construct.

819
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: So so it's not like we have humans and then

820
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 1: we have the separation, and that's and that divide between

821
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: humans and nature and wilderness that lies at a at

822
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: the heart of a lot of the differences between animal

823
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: rights people and say, um, you know, conservationists. So so

824
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: now I'm not here to have a debate about whether

825
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: or not wilderness is a construct. It's just I think

826
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: it's an interesting thing because when I first years ago,

827
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: when I first read about it, it certainly struck me

828
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: as weird, like, oh yeah, I just assumed that there's

829
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: this thing out there and it's the wilderness, and it's

830
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: separate from me Um. And the other thing that's interesting

831
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: too is if, and I'm sure you know, the history

832
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: of the notion or the history of the concept of wilderness,

833
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: at least in West, in the West in Europe, it's

834
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: gone through different phases, right, I mean the model that

835
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: we have today, which is sometimes referred to as kind

836
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: of the Romantic model, which is that you know, this

837
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: kind of thorow, this kind of this model of the

838
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: innocence and purity of the wilderness, and Ralph Waldo Emerson

839
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: and going back to Rousseau in philosophy, that there's something

840
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: good about nature, is something pure uncorrupted about nature. That's

841
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: a recent phenomenon in the West as well, right, I mean,

842
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: if you go back to the original say, say, let's

843
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: just say the like the Mayflower Land in sixteen twenty,

844
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: that view of wilderness was a kind of like hostile,

845
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: unholy place filled with you know, uh, unholy uncivilized people.

846
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: So and then you have different models as as as

847
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: they they evolve over the years. But what I'm just

848
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: trying to point out is that both the notion of

849
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: wilderness and the model that we have a wilderness as

850
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: this kind of pristine, pure thing to preserve or to conserve.

851
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: These are these are historical phenomena. These aren't They're not

852
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: universally found all over the world by you know, all

853
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: different cultures. So I think it's important for us first

854
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: recognize that we're operating under a construction of the way

855
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: that we sort of carve out wilderness in our culture,

856
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: and you know, for good or for bad. I'm not

857
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: even making a judgment. I'm I'm merely trying to make

858
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 1: the point that as as is, whenever we're studying any topic,

859
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: it's a good idea to see it in perspective and say, Okay,

860
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: I see what we're talking about. You know, there's the

861
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: animals are out there, and the trees are out there,

862
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: and and that's and it's pristine and all of that

863
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: are all of those ways are ways that we have adopted,

864
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: at least in the West. Um. Now, I might be

865
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: saying something totally obvious to everyone who's listening, and if so,

866
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: I apologize, But but I think that the history on

867
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: this is interesting to me. Um. Yeah, yeah, I think

868
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: I'm like you, I really like to think of things

869
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: in the theoretical and I think it's it gets us

870
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: because there are and we can talk about them in

871
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: a little bit, but there are like Forest Service federal

872
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: government wilderness classifications, like we're going to treat this chunka

873
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: ground differently than this chunker. But that's not what you're

874
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: talking about here. We're talking about this idea of how

875
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: we see these quote unquote wild play aces, you know,

876
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: like what do we what's the value system around them,

877
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: and and what do we do? What do we do

878
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: in them? Um? Because there's a lot of people in

879
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: the hunting space that have have kind of evolved through

880
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: years to really want to protect wilderness, to not want

881
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: motorized vehicles there, to not want motorized boats there, to

882
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: want to keep these places um as pristine as they can.

883
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: And there's a separate group within hunting that sees that

884
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: as um like elitist that sees that as well, you know,

885
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: if I if I can, why can't I bring my

886
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: a TV? You're gonna tell me to stay You're gonna

887
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: tell me to stay out and you can stay in.

888
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: Isn't that the same kind of aristocracy that we built,

889
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: just a cultural aristocracy and not a you know, and

890
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: not an actual class based aristocracy, Or maybe it is

891
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: that even that so there's you know, we probably speak

892
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: in different languages here, but but I think at its core,

893
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: we even in the hunting space, have this idea of

894
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: what is wilderness, how do we protect it? And what

895
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: do we do? And and can we can we manage

896
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: to have this much wilderness in a world where we

897
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: just consume, consume, consume, consume um, not only not only

898
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: the animals, but the environment which they were. The obvious

899
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: answer to that question is no, we can't. But but

900
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: but one, so one one other thing that comes to

901
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: mind for me, And you mentioned you know, uh, early

902
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: twentieth century, you know, Pin Show and mirror, and I

903
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: think there's an interesting distinction that you spoke in passing

904
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: of conservation and then you spoke about preservation and you know, historically,

905
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: if you think about Pin Show versus John Muir, those

906
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: are two different ways to think about the environment. And

907
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: it seems to me that and again, please correct me

908
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the

909
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: issues of wildlife management assume a conservationist kind of model.

910
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: In other words, the model that there exists this thing

911
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: out there and it's nature, and it's natural and it's good,

912
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: and we'll use science to manage it. And but but

913
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: ultimately the public lands and the public resources are there

914
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: to serve us. There there there, in a sense, a

915
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: kind of resource to be managed, and that is classic

916
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 1: pin show. And on the other hand, someone like John Muir,

917
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: who was associated with a kind of preservationist view, is

918
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: that our job is just to preserve and let this

919
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: thing be as beautiful as it is. It's it's a

920
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: kind of reverence, you know, a kind of you can

921
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: see it as as the role that humans play is

922
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: too is to experience transcendence. But it's not for us.

923
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: It's not a resource. Right. So I think that's important

924
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,959
Speaker 1: when thinking about the animal rights thing that we're talking

925
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: about when you mentioned the beginning, and that is the

926
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: animal rights view is much more of a preservationist view

927
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: in the sense that kind of says animals these sentient,

928
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: you know, complex socially really complex beings. Um, they're not

929
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: ours to manage because they're not resources. There beings. Right now, now,

930
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: you might step back and go like, well, humans are resourced.

931
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: I mean, at my job, there's a thing called human resources,

932
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: right and so but of course that that sort of

933
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: modifying of humans is something that you know, I'm sure

934
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: you would agree like we you and I are on

935
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: You and I. A lot of places where you and

936
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: I overlap are in looking at sort of modernity as

937
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: encroaching on what's good, right. I mean, you and I,

938
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: as you've mentioned before in our conversations, we may have

939
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: we may have gone and stepped in different directions, but

940
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: we both we both have these kinds of values that

941
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,320
Speaker 1: we share. And you know, the whole idea that humans

942
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: are commodities or humans or resources that takes us away

943
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: from important values. And so I think what I'm getting

944
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: at is the sort of preservationist a model dovetails nicely

945
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 1: with the animal rights model in that the animal rights

946
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: people are going to say, look, the whole idea that

947
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: nature is to be managed as as as something for

948
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: the good of human beings, that's just totally anthropocentric. It's

949
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: totally it's it's it's a wrongheaded, misguided way to think

950
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: about wilderness and nature. And what we're supposed to be

951
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: doing is, at least on the animal rights front, what

952
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: what we're supposed to be doing is we're supposed to

953
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 1: be respecting animals as autonomous, sentient beings and allowing them

954
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: to live the lives that and and and exist in

955
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: the kinds of ecosystems that they exist in. And so

956
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: perhaps what we can do is is is to facilitate

957
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: animals having as much autonomy and this kind of stuff

958
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: as possible, but not to interfere with it. So so

959
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: I think at the bottom line, when we think about

960
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: wildlife management, I think it's important to see that there's

961
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: there is a radical departure from the idea of wild

962
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: the very concept of wildlife management. To a lot of

963
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: animal rights people, what they want to say is it's

964
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: just it's just the wrong way to even look at

965
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: the situation. You're you're going into it, you're frontloading it

966
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: by saying there's this, there are these animals and they

967
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: need to be managed, and that that's where. So even

968
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: before we jump into you know, well, is there a

969
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: way to integrate an animal rights view into a progressive

970
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: or or a flourishing wildlife management view, it's important to

971
00:52:54,480 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: to stake out the distinctions and say um, and say, uh,

972
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: the very view that the grounds wildlife management is needs

973
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: to be questioned, at least from the animal rights perspective. Yeah. No,

974
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: I think what you just outlined there was is really

975
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: at the core of what has conflicted me over the

976
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: years with with my own hunting. You know, in the

977
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: commodity like I commodity, I look at animals as commodities sometimes,

978
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, I say, I was, we talked about this

979
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: show last week, that if I can kill ten turkeys,

980
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: then I can feed my family white meat from my

981
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: own hand for the most in the entire year. Right,

982
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 1: So I look at it as like ten to your point,

983
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 1: I don't leave like I'm gonna go kill ten sentient beings.

984
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: I look at it as I look at it as

985
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: I can go get ten turkeys. But I'm comfortable with one.

986
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: The value system that has created inside of me, right,

987
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't feel in the people around me, don't feel

988
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: as if um and you and I were talking before

989
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: the show a little bit about our our little chaps

990
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: in the chapter leaders, and you've always asked me. You said, like,

991
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: are you like a unicorn? I think you're thoughtful? Are

992
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: you like the only one? Are these ideas like kind

993
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: of unique to you? Um And I guess it's starting

994
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 1: to become clearer that not only are they not unique

995
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: to me, I think they're compelling to people that never

996
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: heard them before. And I think what you just said

997
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: is also compelling to people that have never heard them before.

998
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: But to take a few steps back, I've I've always

999
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: looked at somebody asked me, like, what is hunting from

1000
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: a conservation level? How do those two things go together?

1001
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 1: Because there is a phrase in hunting that says hunting

1002
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: is conservation. I said, well, that's not right. Hunting is hunting,

1003
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: and conservations conservation, and and to your point, preservation is preservation.

1004
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: All those things kind of sitting next to each other.

1005
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: But they're not all the same thing. Um. Foundationally, they're

1006
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: all pretty damn different actually. Um. But for me, I

1007
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: always say, like, hunting is the sustainable use of a

1008
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: natural resource. Now, me saying that obviously goes against what

1009
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 1: you just detailed there, which is that why is an

1010
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: animal and natural resource for you? You know? Um? And

1011
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: that's why I would imagine that's the core of the argument,

1012
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: like if they're not a natural resource, um, what are they?

1013
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: And how do we cohabitate with them? And how do

1014
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: we manage those conflicts that come with that cohabitation? Um?

1015
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I guess makes me comfortable

1016
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: with given that statement to that, given that answer to

1017
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: that question is one I've seen how treating animals as

1018
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: a natural resource has allowed people to value them in

1019
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: deeper ways than I ever thought possible. And then the

1020
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: North American model comes in when it's like, we're not

1021
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: just doing this haphazardly. We've looked at this, We've given

1022
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 1: seven tenants. They all kind of they're not perfect. Boy,

1023
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: they could always be modernized. Um and and O. Our

1024
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: our community is trying to do that as we speak,

1025
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: but they at least allow guardrails for what has been

1026
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: really a really productive a hundred years for for wildlife

1027
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 1: that we say, our game animals. And so I look

1028
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: at it kind of in those stages, and um, I've

1029
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 1: asked myself the question that you just kind of pose there,

1030
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: which is is the basis of what I do wrong,

1031
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: like the commoditization the natural resource thought about an animal,

1032
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: because certainly when I interact with animals, I don't when

1033
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: I'm in the face of an elk, I don't like, oh,

1034
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: there goes a natural resource. I see the individual elk,

1035
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, I see it's I have to learn its behavior.

1036
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: I have to learn how it interacts with other elk

1037
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: and where it lives and what it thinks, and so

1038
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: in that sense, I see it as an individual. But

1039
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: in the sense of conservation, I have to then pull

1040
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: back and maybe you can convince me that I'm just

1041
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: trying to convince myself that that natural resource statement UM

1042
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: holds up in court. Maybe it doesn't hold up in court.

1043
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: And I've always wondered that UM as a as just

1044
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 1: a function of of challenging my own worldview and challenging

1045
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: the dogma that I was presented when I stepped into

1046
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,439
Speaker 1: the hunting space. And that's where I sit right now

1047
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: after three years of talking about and as usual, Ben,

1048
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: you're very you're very thoughtful about this stuff, and I

1049
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: hope you're right that you are sort of emblematic of

1050
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: the way that hunters think, because that's a you know that.

1051
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: I mean, look the stereotypes, and you know, the stereotype

1052
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: of the animal rights person is you know, the throwing

1053
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: blood on the person wearing a fur coat, and the

1054
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: stereotype of the hunters shoot everything that moves kind of.

1055
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: So it's nice to hear, as I say, every time

1056
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: we have a conversation, it's nice that you're so thoughtful,

1057
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: and that's representative of maybe the way that hunters are

1058
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: are are thinking, Um, can I just can I just

1059
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: say before you I've evolved to hunters. I'm at the

1060
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: point right now where I think the ideas that we're

1061
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: talking about are compelling to everybody that gets to listen

1062
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: to them. You know, I think it's it's some of

1063
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: these ideas have have brought hunters along that have traditionally

1064
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: thought different things or were fed different information and are

1065
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: now being exposed to it. But I think, um, we

1066
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: just had a guy on the show before you came on.

1067
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: His name is Nuri Hong, never hunted a day in

1068
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: his life, lives in California, is a biotech engineer in

1069
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: his free time, and came onto this podcast, listened to

1070
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: it as a non hunter, and joined our chapter in California.

1071
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: Is now our chapter leader, and is is not only

1072
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: hunting himself, but but leading a community of people that

1073
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 1: have been doing it for years and years and years

1074
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: longer than him, and and in our space, that is

1075
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: like insane that that happened. You know, he is a

1076
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: leader of hunters, but he's only a leader because he's

1077
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: embraced the ideas that we're talking about in their totality

1078
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: at least at least the exploration. Well, one of the

1079
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: things that you said kind of jumped out of meat,

1080
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: and that is and I from from what we spoke about,

1081
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 1: what we're speaking about now, but also from our previous conversations,

1082
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: and that is um. And you can correct me if

1083
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but you you did say that, Um. You

1084
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: see hunting as as um or management in this conservation

1085
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: in this way of sustainable has to be sustainable and

1086
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: it's sustaining natural resources. It's sustainable. Can can you say

1087
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: that phrase again? Like what what's conservation to sustainable use

1088
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: of a natural resource? So the idea that we can

1089
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: if we take some, yeah, we're gonna take some, not

1090
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: but we're gonna but the overall health of the population

1091
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: will will be either maintained or forwarded, you know, like

1092
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: there's more dear today than ever and we can kill

1093
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: We kill a lot of them as hunters. So this

1094
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: idea that we can kill some and that's going to

1095
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 1: be a benefit to the whole and this and it

1096
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: also comes down to this idea that of how we

1097
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: view that activity where we're saying we're gonna use this

1098
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: natural resource for we're gonna pay into the pot, right,

1099
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: We're gonna buy a license, we're gonna give an excise tax,

1100
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: or you know, we're all we're going to have a

1101
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: construct which are polish our model kind of outlines that

1102
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: allows us to use this natural resource in a sustainable way.

1103
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: But boy do we have a whole lot of principles

1104
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: and philosophies that that make that use, um sustainable as

1105
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: the statement goes to, but also you know, value based

1106
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,919
Speaker 1: and kind of locked into locked into a process. Yeah,

1107
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: um yeah. So one of the things that I was

1108
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: thinking when you were talking about that is that, um,

1109
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: so it seems that where you and another place that

1110
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: you and I we share values is that the notion

1111
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: that um nature, I think, wilderness, things that exist out

1112
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: there outside of cities and things like that, but even

1113
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 1: within cities and certain areas. But so we we don't

1114
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: we don't think that the proper attitude is that these

1115
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: things are are there to be used in any ways

1116
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: that I so desire. I mean, you and I've talked,

1117
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: we've had conversations about uh consumerism and problems with like consumption. Right,

1118
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: if you if you don't have the clause of sustainability,

1119
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: then you're left with these are natural resources for us

1120
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: to use. So so the sustainability aspect of of your

1121
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: notion of of conservation is it plays a key role, right,

1122
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 1: you can't just that's when you and I've talked about

1123
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: problems we have with you no factory farming. One of

1124
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: the problems we have is you know, it's destructive to

1125
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: the environment. It's totally disrespectful too, you know animals, at

1126
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: least that's my view. So, um, what what? So what

1127
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: I find interesting? There's a couple of things. One is

1128
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: at at heart, and I might be wrong. I think

1129
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 1: seeing nature as a resource, I think that that I

1130
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: don't want to say it goes against it seems to me.

1131
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: It puts intention, it's it puts your view in tension

1132
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: with your own view, which is that I don't want

1133
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: to think I don't. You and I we don't think

1134
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: of nature as a resource. It's like it's it's it's

1135
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: almost transcendent. It's almost there's a reverence about it. Right,

1136
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: and so so, first of all, going back to our

1137
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: original part of our conversation, it seems like for for you,

1138
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: I'm seeing there might be some tension where you're like, well,

1139
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: I have to think of it. And you talked about

1140
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: when you're when you're encountering an individual animal that you're

1141
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: gonna shoot. It's like, I have to think about this

1142
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: thing as a resource in the way in the way

1143
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: that I can, so that I can fulfill my my job.

1144
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: But but I also had this other thing where I think, no,

1145
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: that's not a resource. Like if I take a million

1146
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: of them and put them in a factory farm, you're

1147
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 1: gonna go They're not resources their animals, right. So that's

1148
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: one that's that's something I find intentions. And here's the

1149
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: other thing. Is the other thing is the sustainability part.

1150
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: As I said, that seems to play a key role.

1151
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: It's like we can, as you mentioned, like we can

1152
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: on this view, we can hunt deer as long as

1153
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: we're not removing so much so many deer as to

1154
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 1: mess up the ecosystem. Right, So we want to have

1155
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 1: a balance, We want to have a kind of healthy stasis.

1156
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 1: And and this is the challenge I've I've sort of

1157
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 1: raised to you in the in the past, and that is,

1158
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: if you don't have sustainability, then this model flies out

1159
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: the window. And what I want to say is, there

1160
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: are seven and a half billion people on the planet.

1161
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,439
Speaker 1: Your model is not sustainable. It's not. There's no way

1162
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: in hell you're gonna get seven a half billion people

1163
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: going out and shooting ten turkey for their family for

1164
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: it's so so it's sustainable, it's it's maybe it's like

1165
01:03:54,760 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: locally sustainable. Maybe it's sustainable in certain pockets of the world. Um.

1166
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 1: But my point is in the same way when sometimes

1167
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: when I have are not arguments, but discussions with people

1168
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: about veganism, they say, well, you can't do veganism every

1169
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna have the Inuit, who they eat blubber,

1170
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 1: You're gonna make them eat tofu like. And what I

1171
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: want to say is, yeah, I agree, that's that's that's

1172
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 1: a really difficult that's a challenge. Like I could go

1173
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 1: to Whole Foods in California and get tofu. But there

1174
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: are indigenous people who they're hunting is a part of

1175
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: their lives and it's part of the sustainability. By the

1176
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: same token, the view that that you're expressing, it's just

1177
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: not sustainable at a world level. So you and I

1178
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: are weirdly in this. We both have our own conundrums

1179
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: that our views lead to that you know, it's it's

1180
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 1: it's um it's humbling. I think if you know, maybe

1181
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: hopefully you agree with me. I do very much agree

1182
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, and I think you're the tension you

1183
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 1: mentioned there. I'll take that. We'll try to take that

1184
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 1: initial point and then we'll go to kind of the

1185
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: sustainable part. But the tension I think is very well

1186
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: articulated by you. Because that tension is is. I try

1187
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: to deal with it in two ways, and this might

1188
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: be the first time I've ever tried to articulate this

1189
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: in a way. So that's why I love having you on,

1190
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: because you forced me to articulate ship that I've I've

1191
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: just never really put a finer point on. Practicality and emotionality.

1192
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: Is emotionality a word, as probably is? Uh, it's word

1193
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: to me too. We agree on it's a word. Yeah,

1194
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: if you can agree on it, its word. Um. So

1195
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: those two aspects of hunting for me have always been

1196
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 1: a push pull always. I've always said, I can pick

1197
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: up this book by Geist and Mahoney and read the

1198
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: North American Wildlife Conservation, and the pragmatists in me can

1199
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: see it clearly right. I can see where it came from,

1200
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: why it was created, and then I can look at

1201
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 1: the result of it, which is is pretty and arguably

1202
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: more proliferation of these wildife species that I care about.

1203
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 1: But then when I say I air, I've got to

1204
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: then take a step back and like, what do I

1205
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: care about? You know, do I care about a single

1206
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: deer or all the dear? And and I can't just

1207
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: say all the dear. I gotta say both, because I

1208
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: do care about single I do see the characteristics they

1209
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: have that I admire. I have an admiration for these

1210
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: things that's so deep and so value based that I

1211
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,960
Speaker 1: would be a fool if to reject your notion of

1212
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: sentience and a full to reject your notion of of

1213
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 1: of pure rights when it comes to how autonomy really um.

1214
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: And so that's always been I've tried not to use

1215
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 1: the practical notion of conservation as a shield for the

1216
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: emotional notion of my relationship with the animals. And because

1217
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: those two things exist in parallel, for me, I understand

1218
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: the tension that that is between the two things. And

1219
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: I think a lot of hunters would like to say

1220
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: and have said to be in the past well and

1221
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: and and I there's a lot of parts on this

1222
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: where I do agree, where it's like, well, these animal

1223
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 1: rights guys, it's all emotion. There's no fact, right, it's

1224
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: all emotion, there's no fact. They care about the animal,

1225
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: but they don't care about cohabitation. They care about the animal,

1226
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 1: but they don't care about management. Um. And I always

1227
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 1: I say, yeah, I agree that a lot of the people.

1228
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: And that's why I love talking to you, because you

1229
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 1: don't do this. But a lot of people we talked

1230
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: to do straight up call on the emotion only and

1231
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: not the practicality or the philosophy behind it. But those

1232
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: that can have those conversations all at once, I think

1233
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,960
Speaker 1: we all kind of have the same confusion, um, because

1234
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 1: we all, I mean, the way that we see animals

1235
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: in nature, as you mentioned, is kind of a construct

1236
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: of of our own humanity. You know, that relationship is

1237
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: constructed in our own psychology. And so I would admit,

1238
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 1: I guess to touch on that first point and recap

1239
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: all that the practical I see the practicality of of

1240
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: the North American model, and I appreciate it and I'm

1241
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: glad it's there because it gives me some kind of

1242
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: like tactile comfort that what's happening that my mind, my

1243
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: my my critical mind, my objective thoughts, can take it,

1244
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,560
Speaker 1: break it down, and understand it and feel at some

1245
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: level comforted by comfort the emotional side of me. It's like, man,

1246
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of emotional moments sitting over top

1247
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: of a dead animal, and and what is that really?

1248
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: You know, am I Is that a natural resource? When

1249
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 1: I sit there over this you know, dead elk, and

1250
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 1: there's emotions flooding that I probably wouldn't let anyone else see,

1251
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, Like, is it a natural resource? Then well

1252
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 1: fuck no, it's not. Uh. And I've got to understand

1253
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 1: those two elements. And so that's why I think that

1254
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 1: the this idea of of taking the North American model

1255
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: and seeing if we can you like, either merge it

1256
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: or or have it be parallel with these two ideologies

1257
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 1: is important because it's a way to kind of shut

1258
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 1: off this, this this argument that I've fallen into and

1259
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: have been a part of. That's like one is emotional

1260
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 1: and one is facts. I have emotions too, I'm not

1261
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: all facts. Like, I have a lot of emotions when

1262
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: it comes to wildlife. I spent a lot of time

1263
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: thinking about it. So it's it's not as it's not

1264
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: fair for that for that part. So I mean, that's

1265
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 1: I guess that's the tension that you so accurately called out.

1266
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 1: I mean that it really is there. It exists. I

1267
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 1: think it probably exists for a lot of hunters. It

1268
01:09:19,360 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: definitely exists for people that come to it as adults,

1269
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: who we call emergent hunters on this show. It exists

1270
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: for them in spades because they have when you when

1271
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: you get introduced to killing an animal at the age

1272
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: of twelve, you don't have the emotional capability to understand

1273
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 1: its impact on you. And when that emotional and when

1274
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: that emotionality gets normalized to your teenage years, you come

1275
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 1: out the other end going animals die. That's what I do.

1276
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to think about why or how or what.

1277
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 1: You know, what I feel about this. I've been doing

1278
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: it since I was twelve, you know. It's the same

1279
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: as anything else. And so we get all these new

1280
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 1: hunters that come through the door and they go, I

1281
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: feel super emotional about this. Can I talk to somebody?

1282
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 1: And and twenty years ago hunter would say, no, you

1283
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 1: can't talk to me about that, Like we're not talking

1284
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 1: about the emotions of it. Get the hell out of here. Um,

1285
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: and so we've seen I think we've seen a bit

1286
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: of a change there, But I don't I don't know

1287
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: that there'll ever be an answer to to that tension.

1288
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: I don't know. I certainly don't have one at this moment. Well, Ben,

1289
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: I do appreciate your emotional vulnerability on the podcast today. Well,

1290
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,879
Speaker 1: I told the listeners recently that I go to marriage counseling,

1291
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: and people like really, I said, yeah, this is what

1292
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: it is. I voted for Biden. I go to marriage counseling.

1293
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 1: I'm emotional about animals. I don't know what you want

1294
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:36,479
Speaker 1: me to do. Be seriously, I think it's great that

1295
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: you have you you are. You are honest in that

1296
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 1: you you relate how you have an emotional response, and

1297
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,120
Speaker 1: you know, of course knowing you how I how I

1298
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: do you know over these few years. That doesn't surprise me, because, um,

1299
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 1: I almost think if you don't have an emotion like

1300
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 1: you describe, I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna go

1301
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 1: so far as to say like there's something sociopathic about

1302
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:07,480
Speaker 1: I would say there's got to be some kind of suppression.

1303
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:12,519
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a natural thing, even I mean for me,

1304
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 1: it's like I'll tell you a weird story. Yesterday I

1305
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 1: came out of my apartment and there was a B

1306
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk in its death throws. You know, it

1307
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 1: was like the end of its life and it was

1308
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:25,559
Speaker 1: just struggling and struggling. And I crushed it because I

1309
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: was like, it was a mercy killing bastard I did.

1310
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 1: I'm admitting it on that. But but is the point

1311
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 1: is I felt I I felt like I felt an

1312
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 1: emotional it was a B but I really, you know,

1313
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 1: I was like, I just crushed it, but I felt

1314
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 1: like I didn't want to watch it suffer. Now, um

1315
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: now I feel like to just not have any kind

1316
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 1: of emotion attached to it, I think, uh, that makes

1317
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: me feel uncomfortable. I would rather have someone say, yeah,

1318
01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 1: it was really difficult and I pulled the trigger and

1319
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: I fed my fast emily and yeah, there was no

1320
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 1: I felt. I thought about that. That seems like, okay,

1321
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: well yeah, that that's that doesn't that doesn't the thing

1322
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: that scares me A soone who says I don't give

1323
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 1: a shit, I just shoot everything. But but but I

1324
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 1: wanted to go back to something. So you were going

1325
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: to also address the issue of sustainability as being like

1326
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 1: a kind of key criterion for this this view of conservation. Yeah,

1327
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: and I think, um, you mentioned kind of sustainability on

1328
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 1: a broad scale being impossible. Agree. I think the North

1329
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 1: American model agrees with you. It says, well, Ship, we

1330
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,800
Speaker 1: can't do it on a continent level. We have to

1331
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: do it on a state level or a regional level.

1332
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 1: And most state and most, if not all that I

1333
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:45,640
Speaker 1: know of the state game agencies are built on like

1334
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: specific regions, regional biologists who report into you know, state

1335
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: game agencies who have a game commissions and who are

1336
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 1: and who then um, Like in Montana, they say, here

1337
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: the game laws for this year, here's how many you

1338
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: can kill. Here's how many, here's how many animals you

1339
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: can go and kill. Um. Based on the population size

1340
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 1: is based only you know what, what's what we're seeing

1341
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,879
Speaker 1: on the ground. Let's say, you know, chronic wasting disease

1342
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 1: hits a certain region, that regional biology is gonna go,

1343
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: We'll hold on. Maybe we can't hunt deer this year. Maybe.

1344
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 1: And so for me that sustainability can be localized. It

1345
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 1: is localized in the North American model. And I think

1346
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: that the geis and mahoney like hat tipped to hey man,

1347
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: we know that this isn't sustainable on a broad, broad level,

1348
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 1: because we know that population dynamics, the dynamics of ecosystems

1349
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: from one to another are different, and they do need

1350
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 1: to be seen as different, and they do need to

1351
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: be managed locally as locally as we can know. That's

1352
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 1: it is. It is not perfect. There's a lot of

1353
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 1: state game agencies that catch a lot of flak from

1354
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: hunters and non hunters alike over many things, including reintroduction

1355
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 1: of wolves. Um, you know, the the hunting of grizzly bears,

1356
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 1: and and on and on we go. We generally make

1357
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 1: that make those points around charismatic predators, but um, there's

1358
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: a lot of debate about things like, uh, here's something

1359
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 1: that you've probably never heard of. Antler point restrictions is

1360
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:13,679
Speaker 1: something that has happened within the deer hunting population where

1361
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: it used to be in in many states, you could

1362
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: shoot any any legal deer could have spikes or above,

1363
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 1: you know, if it's it's antlers on its head. So

1364
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 1: many states have put in Antler point restrictions because they

1365
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 1: know if you allow a deer to mature, you know,

1366
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: that's going to help the population. So the biologists and

1367
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: the game commissions are saying you can't shoot them unless

1368
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 1: they have three on one side, because obviously that denotes

1369
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:38,799
Speaker 1: the age and maturity of the animal, thus a healthier

1370
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: population given the dynamics, and so those things that I

1371
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 1: think are at play. It's not perfect. Boy, it's human.

1372
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: So it's it's a very imperfect way to do it,

1373
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: I think. UM, But at least for me, it addresses

1374
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: the sustainability in a very local, regional, and even ecosystem

1375
01:14:56,320 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 1: level way. Um. And And on the show, we've definitely

1376
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: talked about things like trophic cascade and when you when

1377
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 1: you take a predator out of a landscape board, does

1378
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 1: it do? When you put a predator back into a

1379
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 1: landscape board? Does it do? And so UM, I think

1380
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 1: that answers a bit of the sustainable question for me. UM.

1381
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: It also just I was thinking of this when you

1382
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,760
Speaker 1: were talking earlier. It's it's almost as if if there

1383
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 1: were two doors and and and you said, listen, you

1384
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: can walk through two doors. One is animal rights. You're

1385
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 1: not gonna ever kill anything, and if you do, it's

1386
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 1: going to be with understanding that it might be merciful

1387
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 1: or it might be absolutely necessary and you know, and

1388
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: and you might be starving a need to eat. And

1389
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:37,720
Speaker 1: then the other one is you're going to take part

1390
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: in this, you know, something that has sport and game

1391
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: like qualities, and you enjoy it and it gets it

1392
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 1: makes you feel all weird and happy, and you don't

1393
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: understand why killing makes you happy, but you're gonna go

1394
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,840
Speaker 1: through that door. And on the other side, it is

1395
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 1: like an understanding and value system conclusion. I've walked through

1396
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 1: the hunting door, and I'm like, dude, I'm I don't

1397
01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 1: know what the other doors like, but this one is

1398
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,320
Speaker 1: adding am I care and adding to my value and

1399
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 1: and I don't know a life that doesn't have this,

1400
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 1: But I know what it's done for me, right, I

1401
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 1: know that. Um it's it's really understood. And I guess

1402
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: a good example of that, Robert would be I have

1403
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 1: a four year old son, and you know what little

1404
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 1: boys tend to like to do. They tend to like

1405
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 1: the crush bugs, you know, Like he was, I kill

1406
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 1: an ants the other day and and I sat him down.

1407
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: We had a conversation about ants, and I said, listen, man,

1408
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 1: we don't kill ants here like we don't or we

1409
01:16:33,400 --> 01:16:36,479
Speaker 1: don't kill birds, we don't kill ants, we don't do that,

1410
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,760
Speaker 1: we don't kill things unnecessarily. And you know how I

1411
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 1: learned that hunting, like I learned the nest like kind

1412
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 1: of the dynamics of killing. And and he's four, and

1413
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, no more birds, daddy, And that was it.

1414
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 1: But that was more me talking to myself than him.

1415
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 1: But it did help me understand like this songbird I

1416
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: appreciate and I would never want to kill it because

1417
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:00,120
Speaker 1: I can't eat it. It's not a natural resource to me.

1418
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 1: Now it's it's something different. So that dynamic would be

1419
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 1: interesting to hear your thoughts on kind of how well

1420
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 1: do you think that's? Like me just all of this

1421
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,080
Speaker 1: is like, am I just constructing something to make myself

1422
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 1: feel comfortable about killing? Or is this really, you know, uh,

1423
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 1: really attacked. How a way to live your life that

1424
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 1: helps with some of the many dynamic and complex problems

1425
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 1: we all have with with cohabitation being one of the

1426
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 1: main things. Well, man, I'm glad that you shared another

1427
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,760
Speaker 1: I'm learning so much about well, I mean, I knew

1428
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 1: that you are vulnerable, but now you're sharing how wonderful

1429
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 1: a father you are. I'm one vulnerable son of a

1430
01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 1: bit you know that was a humble, humble bred you are.

1431
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 1: You are a model father to sit down with your

1432
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 1: son and then we had hey listen, and then we

1433
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 1: had a mountain dew and watch cartoons. So I don't know,

1434
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: I take it, but um no, that that's a wonderful

1435
01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 1: lesson to learn, like why unnecessarily, you know, kill these things?

1436
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 1: I think. Um, so that's that. My hat's off to

1437
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 1: you on that. On that front, Um, I do think that. Uh.

1438
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:07,440
Speaker 1: And and I like your response about you know, acknowledging

1439
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 1: that sustainability it has to be local and it's it's

1440
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 1: not something that is generalizable over the whole planet. Um,

1441
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 1: here's here's a little you know, again, I'll reiterate, I'm

1442
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:22,839
Speaker 1: a philosopher, so I'm going to throw a thought experiments

1443
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:27,080
Speaker 1: at you. So look and here's here's the here's the

1444
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: thought experiment from a from an animal rights ethicist. So

1445
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 1: let's go back to your You have your two doors

1446
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 1: to choose from, and the way you put it was,

1447
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 1: on the one hand, there's like the animal rights world

1448
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: where you don't kill anything unnecessarily, and you know, you

1449
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 1: don't you know if you have to. But and the

1450
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 1: the other door, you have this life of hunting where

1451
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 1: you are doing sustainable killing. And now let me throw

1452
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:54,439
Speaker 1: twisted kind of a Twilight Zone twist. So what if

1453
01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:59,720
Speaker 1: I said, um uh, see that door. Here's something you

1454
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:03,599
Speaker 1: don't know about either door. When you go through that door,

1455
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:05,719
Speaker 1: you don't know if you're going to be an elk

1456
01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:10,960
Speaker 1: or a human m So you have to choose. But

1457
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 1: you can't choose front loading, no, where you're gonna you

1458
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:15,360
Speaker 1: don't You're you're not gonna know where you're gonna be

1459
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 1: in the hierarchy. Now I'll let you answer, but I

1460
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:24,680
Speaker 1: have a feeling that throws a that I don't say

1461
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:27,360
Speaker 1: throws a wrench, but that adds complication to the decision.

1462
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 1: And I think the animal rights person wants to say.

1463
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 1: What that shows is that there's a human bias built

1464
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: in when you talk about this kind these kinds of

1465
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 1: choosing which way to go. And the animal rights person says,

1466
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,480
Speaker 1: I what I say is, well, if if the possibility

1467
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:48,560
Speaker 1: I could be an elk, then certainly I'm going to

1468
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 1: choose the first door. Don't shoot me, Yeah, don't shoot

1469
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 1: me in the lungs. I'll only run two yards before

1470
01:19:56,600 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 1: I die. I am delicious. Yeah, I mean I think, uh,

1471
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:05,639
Speaker 1: this would be like a game show that we could

1472
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 1: do is if you walked through this door you're at

1473
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:12,720
Speaker 1: Elk and some hunters are gonna chase your would be

1474
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 1: a I think we could probably get Drew carry to

1475
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: run it. I think what you're asking is like, do

1476
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:23,519
Speaker 1: you have the ability to be empathetic here? You know?

1477
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 1: Do you have the ability to see this animal for

1478
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:29,719
Speaker 1: what you know? What you believe at least an animal

1479
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 1: rights believe that truly is with this like sentient being

1480
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't that no matter how you reason it, and

1481
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:39,559
Speaker 1: no matter how you structure something like a model or

1482
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 1: a value system in your own life, no matter how

1483
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 1: you do all those things, you still have to come

1484
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 1: to the point where you're killing something that doesn't want

1485
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 1: to die, like it it would prefer not to die.

1486
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:54,040
Speaker 1: And guess who shares that sentiment with that Elk? I do.

1487
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,799
Speaker 1: I would not like to die. I don't want anybody

1488
01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: to shoot me with an arrow, like especially as actually

1489
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 1: an awesome broad head that it's like that has a

1490
01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 1: two inch cutting diameter that's meant to slice me in half,

1491
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 1: so I can. So I only bleed out over a

1492
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 1: couple of minutes, you know, Like I don't funk. I

1493
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 1: don't want that at all, um, And so yeah, I

1494
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:15,639
Speaker 1: mean I think once I walked through those doors, if

1495
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:18,360
Speaker 1: I had had a chance as an elk to understand

1496
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 1: what I know now, I'd probably say, like, boy, this,

1497
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 1: you know what's better getting eaten by a wolf for

1498
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 1: getting shot by a hunter? I don't know. But I

1499
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:31,040
Speaker 1: don't want to die. Like I'm an elk, I don't

1500
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 1: want to die, you know. And so I think that

1501
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 1: when you walk it back that far, I mean, yeah,

1502
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:38,559
Speaker 1: there's nothing left left to say, is like we share,

1503
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, what we share with animals. We don't want

1504
01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 1: to die. Nobody, no sentient being is born with the

1505
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:49,840
Speaker 1: idea of its death. As you know, really death is

1506
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:53,639
Speaker 1: an an inevitability. But the way you die, you would

1507
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: you certainly like it to be your choice, right, Um.

1508
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 1: But then I think I think that, and that's a

1509
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 1: very thoughtful answer. But I think it's not merely. I

1510
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:06,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't say merely. It's not only about um. It's not

1511
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 1: only shining a spotlight on empathy. It's also the thought experiment.

1512
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 1: As I described it. It's it's shining a spotlight on

1513
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 1: whether or not we are capable of being objective when

1514
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:22,000
Speaker 1: we're making assessments about value. Who's valuable and who isn't

1515
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,840
Speaker 1: and so and so. What I'm saying is, look, I

1516
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:30,960
Speaker 1: can't help but be biased towards non human you know,

1517
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: in favor of human I'm a human, right, But that's

1518
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 1: not a justification for it. And I'll give you an

1519
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 1: obvious counter example. If I say, hey, uh, hey, what

1520
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:42,040
Speaker 1: race do you want to be on the other side

1521
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:45,800
Speaker 1: of that door? You don't really know. If I say, well,

1522
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm a white dude, so I think

1523
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 1: I want to be a white guy. Um that that

1524
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:53,720
Speaker 1: gets a little bit prickly, like it's like, wait, hold

1525
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:57,519
Speaker 1: on a second, which right? So so if I think, well,

1526
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 1: you know, should everyone be subject of the same laws,

1527
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to decide this before I walk through

1528
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 1: the door, and then someone says, oh, by the way,

1529
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:07,400
Speaker 1: when you get on the other side of the door,

1530
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: you don't know if you're gonna be white, black, indigenous,

1531
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:12,719
Speaker 1: a woman in a wheelchair. Right then I go, oh,

1532
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,679
Speaker 1: you know what, I better make sure that the laws

1533
01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 1: cover everyone as opposed to I know that I'm gonna

1534
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 1: be a middle aged white philosophy professor, and then I'm like,

1535
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,320
Speaker 1: I don't care, you know. So I think the thought

1536
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:27,280
Speaker 1: experiment is important for the animal rights person because what

1537
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 1: we say is to try to be objective, and again

1538
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 1: not to dismiss empathy and emotion, that's very important, but

1539
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 1: to try to be objective when we're deciding, when we're

1540
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:40,880
Speaker 1: choosing which values we should base our society on. Part

1541
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 1: of that objectivity has to has to remove is to

1542
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: remove ourselves from this privileged position and saying, well, I

1543
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:49,760
Speaker 1: don't have to worry when I choose the door. Here's

1544
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:52,639
Speaker 1: what I know. I'm cool. Everyone else is screwed. So

1545
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:55,760
Speaker 1: when you take that away, um, that's part of the

1546
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,160
Speaker 1: challenge of the animal rights position. I wish you have

1547
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,599
Speaker 1: given me this thought experiment way like I wish i'd had.

1548
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna use this a lot because I like the

1549
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: thought experiment because I think it drives that many things.

1550
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 1: So I guess what I would to take it a

1551
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 1: little bit further. I think, in terms of objectivity, no

1552
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 1: matter if I walk through the door, right and and

1553
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna tell me no matter which one you are

1554
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:22,800
Speaker 1: elk or human. Elk and humans both exist in the

1555
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,320
Speaker 1: same numbers that they do today, in the same habitat

1556
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 1: and the same landscape. So on an on an objective basis,

1557
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:30,840
Speaker 1: we're going to have to make a decision at some

1558
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:33,760
Speaker 1: point about how those two things coexist. Right, you know,

1559
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,080
Speaker 1: one eats the other, the other doesn't eat the elk

1560
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 1: don't eat humans, but humans eat elk, right, And that's

1561
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 1: been as long as there's been humans and elk. That's

1562
01:24:40,439 --> 01:24:43,439
Speaker 1: how it's been, right, So we can't re engineer that.

1563
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 1: So at some point, as we boiled down from kind

1564
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,479
Speaker 1: of like the broad based thought experiment and we get

1565
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:53,719
Speaker 1: closer to the actual interaction between an elk and a human,

1566
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 1: we then have to start to like unravel this what

1567
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:04,960
Speaker 1: happens when you know, particularly elk in this case um

1568
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:08,600
Speaker 1: come into conflict with humans or are you know, you

1569
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,080
Speaker 1: have a farmer, he's got a crop field, that's his livelihood,

1570
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,000
Speaker 1: and the thousand elk come walking in and started eating

1571
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:15,320
Speaker 1: his crops, and there's nothing he can do. He can't

1572
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 1: he could chase them off, they'll just come back tomorrow.

1573
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,120
Speaker 1: They're elk. They don't give a shit about his crops.

1574
01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 1: Um just as though, just as we can make that

1575
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:26,560
Speaker 1: value judgment between elk and crops, elk can make the

1576
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 1: value judgment between that dude's crops and going up in

1577
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 1: the mountains and eating some clover. Ladies can't um They're

1578
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:35,920
Speaker 1: gonna take the easiest path to staying alive, right, And

1579
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 1: so we have once we get down to like the

1580
01:25:38,600 --> 01:25:42,680
Speaker 1: actual beating of the cohabitation heads together, like what do

1581
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 1: we do together here, then we can really start to

1582
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: talk about like even if you have which I like

1583
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 1: I've said from the beginning, you and I share a

1584
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 1: lot of the same values around like the animal itself,

1585
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 1: like ship man, I I love elk and so, but

1586
01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 1: what happens when we get in that situation wage and

1587
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 1: how do we deal with it? And this is the

1588
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 1: same conversation I have with Paula Sheer. We got into

1589
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:06,640
Speaker 1: arguing about rice and ship for like an hour. It

1590
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 1: was really probably boring to the listeners, but we got

1591
01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 1: into this, like the it always to me boils down

1592
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:15,320
Speaker 1: to like how do you see that relationship? And then

1593
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 1: when death happens, what's the result of that death? Because

1594
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 1: the nature death is almost always a good thing. I mean,

1595
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 1: I would say always a good thing. It's a good

1596
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 1: thing for other animals. It's a good thing. And so

1597
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:27,720
Speaker 1: if I walk through that door and I'm an elk,

1598
01:26:27,760 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, no matter how I die, something's gonna

1599
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:32,280
Speaker 1: eat me. And in the case of a human, all

1600
01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do is die. You're gonna bury me in

1601
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 1: the ground and nothing. The bugs might eat me. But

1602
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a whole different um a thought

1603
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:42,519
Speaker 1: press there. But you're not gonna tell the elk that

1604
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 1: when he's walking around, like, hey, man, listen, if you die,

1605
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. Something's gonna eat you, and you're

1606
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:50,120
Speaker 1: gonna be You're gonna be a food for something. You know,

1607
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: it's helly elk that he'd probably like funck that he

1608
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 1: can eat some other elk um. And so that's I

1609
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: guess the thought. The thought experiment, when taken to it's

1610
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:05,160
Speaker 1: attempted conclusion, just shows us that god damn, this is hard.

1611
01:27:05,400 --> 01:27:08,599
Speaker 1: It's like the individual thoughts and like the reality of

1612
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 1: our our being. Really I can take that way off

1613
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 1: into the wilderness or does that that makes sense? Now?

1614
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:19,040
Speaker 1: That that that makes total sense? And yeah, when the

1615
01:27:19,080 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 1: rubber meets the road, you have to make some decisions.

1616
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:24,479
Speaker 1: If you're if your crops are getting destroyed and you

1617
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,400
Speaker 1: have you have, you know, a bunch of elk, then

1618
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 1: you have a conflict of interest. Now you have to

1619
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: resolve the conflict of interest. And then how you do that,

1620
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:35,880
Speaker 1: of course, is as a matter of debate. So, um,

1621
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:39,000
Speaker 1: I think that's when I would just I'm sorry to

1622
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: interrupt you, but I think that's the core debate because

1623
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:44,839
Speaker 1: I've I've seen that kind of played out so many times,

1624
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 1: and I think we always get to the point where

1625
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:49,920
Speaker 1: it's like we're debating the reality of the situation. I

1626
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 1: almost would agree with you more in the theoretical me

1627
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 1: and you, I think theoretically are right there, man, Like

1628
01:27:57,040 --> 01:28:01,160
Speaker 1: we're basically in the same spot. Um, And the practicality

1629
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:05,519
Speaker 1: of the situation or just like that the conflict or

1630
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 1: really like my own humanity versus the the elk nous

1631
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 1: of the elk, right like those things are, you know,

1632
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 1: that really becomes the conflict in my mind if if

1633
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,639
Speaker 1: I can ignore kind of of how it's always been,

1634
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 1: and I can ignore how delicious and elk is or

1635
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:26,599
Speaker 1: an elk is and not eat one, but that damn

1636
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:29,480
Speaker 1: elk if he's hungry he's gonna go find them easiest,

1637
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:32,880
Speaker 1: most delicious, most calorie and inducing food because he's trying

1638
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 1: to survive, right, So he's that Elk is not able

1639
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,719
Speaker 1: to make a decision like I am, and hence sometimes

1640
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:43,400
Speaker 1: the conflict. But to be clear, hunters aren't just hunting

1641
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 1: for to mitigate conflict like that's you know, so that

1642
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:49,600
Speaker 1: that's not what's happening when I go out there. To

1643
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 1: be clear, so I'm not I don't want to make

1644
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 1: that I don't want to get that too entangled. But

1645
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 1: just following kind of just following that that theory that

1646
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:58,439
Speaker 1: you that we're talking about, Well, if you want to

1647
01:28:58,439 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 1: look at the you said you wanted to, I don't

1648
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:04,599
Speaker 1: want to. I don't want to monopolize. It's your it's

1649
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 1: your program. I don't want to sidetrack us too much

1650
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:10,840
Speaker 1: from you know, the American model. But I know, I mean,

1651
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,160
Speaker 1: I think we're talking about it. All these subjects kind

1652
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:14,479
Speaker 1: of go back to it. We don't need to break

1653
01:29:14,479 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 1: it down tenant by Tennant. Well, I one of the

1654
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:19,719
Speaker 1: things that in the in the animal rights world versus

1655
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 1: the here's what's interesting, you know, environmentalists. So if you

1656
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 1: if you if you take like a gross, you know,

1657
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:33,600
Speaker 1: coarse grained generalization, and you think like, oh, you have

1658
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 1: these tree huggers, and you got the vegans, and you

1659
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,439
Speaker 1: know the hippies, you got all and you sort of

1660
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:43,120
Speaker 1: put them into one category. But in reality, in the

1661
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:46,800
Speaker 1: world of of environmentalists and animal rights people, there's a

1662
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:48,879
Speaker 1: great and I'm sure you know there's a great tension

1663
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 1: between the environmentalists and the animal rights people because and

1664
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 1: this goes back to our conversation we're just having, which is, um,

1665
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 1: do I value the ecosystem? Do I value the systems

1666
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 1: the whole? Do I take a holistic approach? Or do

1667
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 1: I value the individuals that constitute the ecosystem? Right? And

1668
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:14,880
Speaker 1: and so these debates have been running for fifty years

1669
01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 1: at least in the animal rights versus environmentalists, which is, look,

1670
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 1: it's okay to kill elk as long as a you're

1671
01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: doing it, as you said, sustainably and be you're doing

1672
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:29,160
Speaker 1: it in order to mitigate mitigate a greater harm to

1673
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:32,840
Speaker 1: the ecosystem, right, And and so that's kind of that's

1674
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: taking this holistic approach where the individuals, the lives of

1675
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 1: the individuals are like subordinate to this, to the to

1676
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:44,960
Speaker 1: the system, that the health and the stasis of the system.

1677
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 1: And of course the animal rights person is going to say,

1678
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 1: those are individual sentient beings. You can't just calling is

1679
01:30:53,160 --> 01:31:00,160
Speaker 1: a euphemism for just wiping out, you know, incentient beings. Now, now, now,

1680
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:02,920
Speaker 1: I think what the animal rights person wants to say is, look,

1681
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 1: is there any other way to do this? Because when

1682
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 1: we when we look at human beings and you go, okay, look,

1683
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 1: by the middle of the century, we're gonna have nine billion,

1684
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: By the end of the twenty one century, we're gonna

1685
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 1: have ten to eleven billion humans Homo sapiens are destroying

1686
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 1: the planet in population numbers. Um, Now, how do we

1687
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 1: solve that? Well, we don't say, well, we have a

1688
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 1: lottery and then whoever loses goes to the you know,

1689
01:31:27,240 --> 01:31:29,640
Speaker 1: to the great gods in the sky. We we we

1690
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:31,640
Speaker 1: talk about in our birth control, we talk about all

1691
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:35,799
Speaker 1: these all these ways and to to mitigate population growth.

1692
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 1: When it comes to animals, what the animal rights person

1693
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:42,680
Speaker 1: says is, look, the animals deserve the same kind of

1694
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 1: thought processes, like, how do we mitigate the damage to

1695
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:50,080
Speaker 1: the environment while still trying to respect the individual sentient beings?

1696
01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:54,519
Speaker 1: Who can who constitute it, And you know, the environmentalists say, look,

1697
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:59,080
Speaker 1: you know this is nature just works like this. You know,

1698
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:03,000
Speaker 1: you eliminate the individuals and it makes the system, the

1699
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 1: ecosystem comes back into equilibrium. So, um, I think that's

1700
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:11,599
Speaker 1: an important distinction to make when you're talking about how

1701
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,679
Speaker 1: could we integrate animal rights or or how can these

1702
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:18,960
Speaker 1: things fit together with wildlife management, I think we have

1703
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 1: to address, well, do what are we really caring about?

1704
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 1: And of course, again the animal rights person is going

1705
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:28,400
Speaker 1: to say, well, you guys, And I mean when I

1706
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 1: say you guys, I mean the environmentalists who are who

1707
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:34,360
Speaker 1: who think think at the systems level, the ecosystems level.

1708
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 1: You guys, you're all about ecosystems, except when it comes

1709
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 1: to humans. So the bottom line is all humans get

1710
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:43,040
Speaker 1: to do whatever the hell they want. They can procreate

1711
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:44,360
Speaker 1: as much as they want, they can make as many

1712
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:46,240
Speaker 1: babies as they want, they can live where they want,

1713
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:47,679
Speaker 1: they can do whatever the hell they want to do.

1714
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:49,960
Speaker 1: And then for all the other beings on the planet,

1715
01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:52,960
Speaker 1: then we control their numbers. And that's right. And so

1716
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 1: the animal rights people want to say, uh, that again,

1717
01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: that that is an anthropocentric bias and if you want

1718
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:03,240
Speaker 1: to look at one species who's destroying the planet more

1719
01:33:03,280 --> 01:33:05,840
Speaker 1: than any other species, if that's really what you're worried about,

1720
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 1: we all know who that species is and it ain't

1721
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 1: an elk. So I think that that sort of encapsulates

1722
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 1: this tension that's been going on between environmentalists and animal

1723
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,800
Speaker 1: rights activists, This argument that's you know, I don't know

1724
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:21,040
Speaker 1: the answer to it. I think it's very complicated, but

1725
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:24,720
Speaker 1: I think it's important to acknowledge that these are these

1726
01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:27,879
Speaker 1: are tough problems to to try to, you know, address.

1727
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:31,280
Speaker 1: I think the one thing, I guess there's two things

1728
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:33,799
Speaker 1: I would say to that, and one is the elk

1729
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:37,639
Speaker 1: probably would destroy the ecosystem if allowed to. In fact,

1730
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:40,560
Speaker 1: sometimes they do. Um if you just if there was

1731
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,800
Speaker 1: no predators, if there's if they were left unchecked, they

1732
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:47,679
Speaker 1: don't have the other than disease and winter kill and

1733
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:50,519
Speaker 1: and and things that would naturally kind of hone in

1734
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:53,680
Speaker 1: those populations those elk and never have a thought one

1735
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:56,240
Speaker 1: about conservation or the landscape they are on. They have,

1736
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:59,800
Speaker 1: you know, certain biological cues that they work from, which

1737
01:33:59,880 --> 01:34:04,160
Speaker 1: is sex, sex, procreatepropriate, eat, eat, eat, live, live, live,

1738
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:07,719
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's what they are, right, and given

1739
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:10,200
Speaker 1: how ecosystems function, you have to have some sort of

1740
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:13,640
Speaker 1: check on that, and normally it's predators, right, So they are.

1741
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 1: I think the argument an environmentalist or or animal rights

1742
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 1: person might make like it doesn't need to be us

1743
01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 1: checking them, right. We could put wolves in there, they'll

1744
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:23,320
Speaker 1: check them. But but grizzly bears in and they'll check them.

1745
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:26,280
Speaker 1: So I think that's That's one thing I've often said

1746
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:29,639
Speaker 1: that about wolves and my experiences, wolves will just keep eating.

1747
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 1: You know, we see wolves is like they might just

1748
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:35,160
Speaker 1: there might be there for a balance. Wolves don't think

1749
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: about balance their meat processors and four legs like they're

1750
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:41,320
Speaker 1: they're a carnivore in the true truest sense and a

1751
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:43,920
Speaker 1: predator in the truest sense. And so you know, I

1752
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:49,519
Speaker 1: guess there's where you know. Dr Valarious Skyst was was

1753
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:52,640
Speaker 1: the really the main author of our model of conservation

1754
01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:56,679
Speaker 1: told me earlier this summer he just said the words

1755
01:34:56,760 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 1: intelligent intervention. And then when he said that to me,

1756
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 1: I thought, well, they're like if there's two words that

1757
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:08,479
Speaker 1: could encapsulate what you're talking about, just there right, Like

1758
01:35:08,720 --> 01:35:13,200
Speaker 1: this idea that of leaving them alone or managing them.

1759
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:15,680
Speaker 1: You know, we we acknowledge we're different, We acknowledge we

1760
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 1: have a degraded impact on the landscape, and we acknowledge

1761
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 1: all those things. But we have to intervene intelligently because

1762
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,719
Speaker 1: we have that intelligence to make those ethical immoral choices

1763
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:29,080
Speaker 1: on behalf of the animals. Because they don't. They'll eat

1764
01:35:29,080 --> 01:35:31,120
Speaker 1: the grass with the grass is there, they'll kill the elk.

1765
01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:34,320
Speaker 1: If the elk is there, don't much care um because

1766
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 1: they just have biological cues that drive them. So I

1767
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 1: I guess the first point. I'm not as hard on

1768
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:43,920
Speaker 1: the first point. But man, when I heard, you know,

1769
01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:45,960
Speaker 1: kind of the father of this model that I've studied

1770
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:51,920
Speaker 1: and studied say intelligent intervention, I thought, Okay, Like to me,

1771
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:54,800
Speaker 1: that's that if we're going to intervene, that's the type

1772
01:35:54,800 --> 01:35:57,719
Speaker 1: of intervention that we need to do. Intelligent intervention doesn't

1773
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:00,799
Speaker 1: say killing, it doesn't say it doesn't say what type

1774
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:03,800
Speaker 1: of intelligence intervention that we're doing, but it just says

1775
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,680
Speaker 1: we have the ability to intervene intelligently, and boy, we

1776
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,200
Speaker 1: ought to um for the sake of every every species,

1777
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 1: every being. So it doesn't that I don't want it.

1778
01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:15,160
Speaker 1: That's not a concept that I think has anything to

1779
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:17,080
Speaker 1: do with hunting. I think it has to do with

1780
01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:18,760
Speaker 1: what you were just speaking about there, which is very

1781
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 1: much just we have to intelligently intervene, and then we

1782
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:25,000
Speaker 1: have to have this debate, you and I and people

1783
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:27,480
Speaker 1: in our positions have this debate about what that intelligence

1784
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:30,639
Speaker 1: is and how that intervention takes place. You know, and

1785
01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:34,800
Speaker 1: but but I think I I'm firm that and we

1786
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:37,559
Speaker 1: have to intervene in some way, whether it's policy making

1787
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 1: you say never kill, or it's policy making to say

1788
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 1: only kill a little bit. I think we have to

1789
01:36:42,320 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 1: intervene intelligently. Well now, now, now the philosopher is gonna

1790
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:51,560
Speaker 1: shed the theoretical abstract and come down to the practical,

1791
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:54,600
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, Okay, here's what

1792
01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:57,240
Speaker 1: I want to say that, and that is I agree

1793
01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:01,160
Speaker 1: with you that and in the at the abstract, intelligent

1794
01:37:01,240 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 1: intervention is probably unavoidable, it's probably indispensable. However, as you know,

1795
01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:12,599
Speaker 1: maybe I'm just a little bit cynical when I think

1796
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 1: that human Well, let's look at the track record of

1797
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:20,160
Speaker 1: the of the phrase intelligent intervention, and I think we

1798
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:23,600
Speaker 1: ain't doing so well, So, um, I look around and

1799
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 1: go like, are we are we really gonna leave humans?

1800
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:31,000
Speaker 1: I'm glad it's it's it's laughable, like, look at what

1801
01:37:31,040 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 1: we've done to the planet. It's it's insane. So and

1802
01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:36,640
Speaker 1: now again I'm not I'm not. I'm saying at the

1803
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:39,240
Speaker 1: level of theory, it would be great if we could

1804
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 1: have some intelligent intervention and we used the best science

1805
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:48,600
Speaker 1: we have to understand ecological relations and understand um uh

1806
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:52,200
Speaker 1: stasis and these kinds that I'm totally on board with that.

1807
01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm just saying as as a human who's been on

1808
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:58,479
Speaker 1: the planet for a few decades, I get a little

1809
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 1: nervous when we're relying on intelligent intervention to solve problems. Um.

1810
01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:11,439
Speaker 1: So that's a that's a very point, Mr Jones. But

1811
01:38:11,439 --> 01:38:14,160
Speaker 1: but no, I I agree. Look, here's where I think

1812
01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:16,040
Speaker 1: we get this is a you made a really great

1813
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,040
Speaker 1: point I wanted to just reiterate, and that is it's

1814
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:22,080
Speaker 1: not really about like when you talk about intelligent intervention

1815
01:38:22,120 --> 01:38:24,439
Speaker 1: and you know, look, we you can think of it

1816
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:27,360
Speaker 1: like this is triage. We have to do something, we

1817
01:38:27,400 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: can't do nothing, and and hunting it's just a subcategory

1818
01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:37,160
Speaker 1: of doing something, it's not hunting versus not hunting. I

1819
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:39,880
Speaker 1: think that's a really important point to make, that that

1820
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:43,599
Speaker 1: once we recognize we can't do nothing, then we look

1821
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:45,519
Speaker 1: at all the options that are on the table, and

1822
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: then you have these different values we bring. Um. But

1823
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:52,880
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's important too to say that, uh,

1824
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:56,439
Speaker 1: I mean somewhere like New Zealand. Uh, there were no

1825
01:38:56,520 --> 01:39:00,559
Speaker 1: predators in New Zealand for tens of thousands of years.

1826
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:04,559
Speaker 1: And I don't you know again, I'm I'm not trying

1827
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 1: to canter the view that well, if there's no controls,

1828
01:39:07,439 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 1: then things are going to go out of whack. But

1829
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:13,240
Speaker 1: the point is, um, there have been places on the

1830
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:15,760
Speaker 1: planet where there have not been predatory controls. There have

1831
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:19,479
Speaker 1: been other kinds of controls, and things kind of seem

1832
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:22,320
Speaker 1: like they were okay until you know, humans game and

1833
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: introduce predators in New Zealand. Right, so, now New Zealand

1834
01:39:25,320 --> 01:39:28,439
Speaker 1: has a massive you know, they're doing a they have

1835
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:30,599
Speaker 1: invasive speed. I mean, we you and I could spend

1836
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:34,360
Speaker 1: hours talking about quote invasive species. But that's why one

1837
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,160
Speaker 1: of my favorite topics right now, like why do we

1838
01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 1: get Oh we better get hey, hey mate, we better

1839
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:40,640
Speaker 1: get in a helicopter and kill all those tar and

1840
01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 1: like why because they're not native. I'm like, well, you're

1841
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:45,360
Speaker 1: a little tiny island. The only thing is left native.

1842
01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:48,160
Speaker 1: There's a parrot. Like what are we what are we

1843
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:51,879
Speaker 1: even discussing? Like you talking about a theoretical discussion, mind Jesus.

1844
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:54,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean so that's the kind of thing

1845
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:58,599
Speaker 1: where um uh you know, my, maybe this is more

1846
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:04,040
Speaker 1: of an intuition, but my, you know, I think you'll

1847
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:06,320
Speaker 1: agree with me that here's here's what my it's more

1848
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:09,240
Speaker 1: of a general kind of feeling, and that is you

1849
01:40:09,240 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 1: know what human beings, Um, ship can be okay without

1850
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:18,360
Speaker 1: you messing things like like nature. Quote, nature has been

1851
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:24,080
Speaker 1: around a long time before human beings. If Homo sapiens

1852
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, are a quarter of a million years old,

1853
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:29,920
Speaker 1: if that's what our best science tells us nature, and

1854
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:31,639
Speaker 1: and you know, the planet as we know it has

1855
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:34,320
Speaker 1: been around for a very long time. And for us

1856
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:38,960
Speaker 1: to think that without us intervening, ship is going to

1857
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:42,080
Speaker 1: go sideways, I think you would agree to say no, no,

1858
01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:45,080
Speaker 1: Like we the reason why we have to intervene is

1859
01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:48,679
Speaker 1: because and in a large part is because we keep

1860
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,400
Speaker 1: sucking up right, And I'm not. I'm not I want

1861
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:53,040
Speaker 1: to I just want to make it clear. I'm not

1862
01:40:53,080 --> 01:40:55,839
Speaker 1: a primitivist where I'm saying we all need to return

1863
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,040
Speaker 1: to the you know, shun clothing. I'm not saying that.

1864
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:01,320
Speaker 1: I'm merely trying to say that it's not a bad

1865
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 1: idea to to step back sometimes and say, wait a second,

1866
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:08,920
Speaker 1: let's just question this assumption that we're working under, which

1867
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:14,120
Speaker 1: is humans makes things better, we improve you know, we

1868
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:17,719
Speaker 1: we we take a resource and it's sitting there doing nothing,

1869
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:20,479
Speaker 1: and we come and make it. It's like those forests

1870
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:23,160
Speaker 1: that are seeing their quote doing nothing, they've been doing

1871
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:26,080
Speaker 1: nothing for tens of thousands of years, yes, and they're

1872
01:41:26,120 --> 01:41:28,960
Speaker 1: doing fine. So yeah, to be cleared, as you asked me, like,

1873
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:30,840
Speaker 1: what's the North American model, I said, well, a hundred

1874
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 1: years ago, we really fucked this place up bad. So

1875
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 1: the point, like our whole point, the point of this conversation,

1876
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:41,360
Speaker 1: or the point of the model itself, was like, we

1877
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 1: never want to go back to what happened at the

1878
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:46,360
Speaker 1: turn of the century, you know, we never want to

1879
01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:48,320
Speaker 1: go back to that, and this is the best best

1880
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:50,960
Speaker 1: way we can figure out how to get there. Um,

1881
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 1: And that's you know, and and I think it acknowledges

1882
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:56,679
Speaker 1: if we were if there was no humans, it probably

1883
01:41:56,680 --> 01:41:59,120
Speaker 1: be it would probably work out just fine. But there

1884
01:41:59,120 --> 01:42:01,760
Speaker 1: are humans, and so as you mentioned, we got to

1885
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:05,960
Speaker 1: kind of on a on a larger broad scale do triage.

1886
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:08,439
Speaker 1: I like that term in terms of of of how

1887
01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 1: we cohabitate and manage wildlife, because triage is probably a

1888
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:16,120
Speaker 1: pretty good term for what we're trying to do. And

1889
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:20,400
Speaker 1: then on a on a local level, on a personal level, boy,

1890
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:23,160
Speaker 1: I'm just one little part. I'm just one little stitch

1891
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:25,519
Speaker 1: in that triage. If we're sewing up a wound, I'm

1892
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:28,559
Speaker 1: one little stitch. But boy, just being that one little

1893
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:32,120
Speaker 1: stitch makes me gives me this human value that that

1894
01:42:32,200 --> 01:42:34,400
Speaker 1: I've tried to articulate here with you and and for

1895
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:37,559
Speaker 1: three damn years on this podcast. And so I feel like,

1896
01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 1: you know, man, if I if I am a little

1897
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:43,960
Speaker 1: piece of of us stumbling around in the dark trying

1898
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:46,600
Speaker 1: to figure this out, um, it's helping me as a

1899
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:49,960
Speaker 1: human and it's helping to find a little bit of

1900
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,040
Speaker 1: how I moved through the world. And that that that

1901
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:54,479
Speaker 1: to me is like, well, I'm willing to be a

1902
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:57,640
Speaker 1: part of of the of us stumbling around trying to

1903
01:42:57,680 --> 01:43:00,920
Speaker 1: figure it out, because eventually, maybe Robert, there will be

1904
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:03,400
Speaker 1: a thing where there's a small band of hunters. There's

1905
01:43:03,439 --> 01:43:07,040
Speaker 1: maybe a million of us, and and we no one

1906
01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 1: else kills things. But they come along and we show

1907
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:10,599
Speaker 1: them what's up. Hey, here's how humans used to be,

1908
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 1: and we say, look at that. We'll shoot that elk

1909
01:43:12,400 --> 01:43:14,080
Speaker 1: right there. We eat it, and then they go back

1910
01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:16,120
Speaker 1: to the lives and they go and get their lab

1911
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:19,040
Speaker 1: based hamburger and they eat that and it tastes like

1912
01:43:19,120 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 1: that meat. They didn't have to kill ship to get it,

1913
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:24,000
Speaker 1: but they understand what killing looks like and what it

1914
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:25,920
Speaker 1: might mean, and then they get to enjoy that lab

1915
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:28,840
Speaker 1: based hamburger all the more because they understand, you know,

1916
01:43:29,160 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 1: what their forebears did, those damn cavemen, that that we're

1917
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:36,880
Speaker 1: killing animals. At some point, I think, um, that's why

1918
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:39,800
Speaker 1: you'll find here at meat Eater. I don't want to

1919
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:42,439
Speaker 1: speak for everybody, but I definitely feel kind of an

1920
01:43:42,520 --> 01:43:46,920
Speaker 1: admiration for not particularly plant based meat, because it still

1921
01:43:46,960 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 1: has a still has a big effect on our environment,

1922
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:51,720
Speaker 1: and it's probably not that great for us in its

1923
01:43:51,720 --> 01:43:55,680
Speaker 1: current form, but lab based meat I've I've come to

1924
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:59,080
Speaker 1: be like m that could be a good solution like that. Yeah, man,

1925
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:01,120
Speaker 1: you can make a lot of that ship and uh

1926
01:44:01,120 --> 01:44:03,120
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't affect a whole lot of people, and it

1927
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 1: would be a nice way to mitigate what we all

1928
01:44:05,320 --> 01:44:07,960
Speaker 1: know is a problem outside of you know, the eleven

1929
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 1: million or so hunters that are out there, because that

1930
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 1: number can't really grow. It can't go to fifty million,

1931
01:44:14,160 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 1: a hundred million. It can't because our our ecosystems and

1932
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:20,799
Speaker 1: our animals or wildfe population just can't maintain that demand.

1933
01:44:21,000 --> 01:44:23,479
Speaker 1: So there is a sublime demand part of this which

1934
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:28,120
Speaker 1: certainly certainly doesn't feel animal rights e and it's and

1935
01:44:28,360 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 1: how I stated that, But at some level that's where

1936
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:33,679
Speaker 1: we are. You know, we know that this thing isn't

1937
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:37,040
Speaker 1: isn't the ultimate solution, but maybe it's like one stitch

1938
01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:42,280
Speaker 1: in the triage um and boy, it feels really it

1939
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:46,880
Speaker 1: feels like a uniquely human endeavor, if not maybe h

1940
01:44:47,439 --> 01:44:51,200
Speaker 1: anti modernistic in a way that it's carried out. I

1941
01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:53,040
Speaker 1: been you know what I like what you said is

1942
01:44:53,479 --> 01:44:55,320
Speaker 1: the part about I mean, I like everything you said,

1943
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:58,439
Speaker 1: but I like the thing I zero in on was

1944
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:01,559
Speaker 1: your description of us sort of stumbling in the dark,

1945
01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:06,880
Speaker 1: and I that's that's that's you know what philosophers like

1946
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:10,040
Speaker 1: to call epistemic humility, which is a fifty cent term

1947
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:15,040
Speaker 1: that says, look, don't assume that you know everything, right, Like,

1948
01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:18,240
Speaker 1: we start out with this view that says, like, for

1949
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:20,960
Speaker 1: me as an animal rights person, for me as someone

1950
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 1: who is a vegan and trying to go through the

1951
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 1: world following principles that decrease harm in the same way

1952
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:30,320
Speaker 1: that you do, Ben right, you don't. You told your

1953
01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 1: son no, don't unnecessarily step on ads, right. So it's

1954
01:45:35,120 --> 01:45:37,559
Speaker 1: interesting we share that kind of thing. But I also

1955
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:41,920
Speaker 1: feel like, just like you do, it's like, look, this

1956
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 1: whole thing is so crazy, it's so gigantic. There's so

1957
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:50,840
Speaker 1: much interconnectedness when it comes to ecosystems, when it comes

1958
01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:55,040
Speaker 1: to killing and death and food feeding humans and and

1959
01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:58,680
Speaker 1: and I feel like, look, I'm just trying. I'm I

1960
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:01,920
Speaker 1: am kind of stumbling around. I don't have all the answers.

1961
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:04,679
Speaker 1: I just want to leave the planet a little bit

1962
01:46:04,720 --> 01:46:07,800
Speaker 1: better when it's my time to shove off, to have

1963
01:46:07,840 --> 01:46:11,559
Speaker 1: the humility to go. I'm trying to figure it all out.

1964
01:46:11,840 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 1: And I have this really discrete and limited amount of time.

1965
01:46:15,120 --> 01:46:17,360
Speaker 1: You know, if if I lived a thousand years, I

1966
01:46:17,439 --> 01:46:19,479
Speaker 1: might be able to figure something out, But in the

1967
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:22,200
Speaker 1: short time that I have, I'm doing the best I can.

1968
01:46:22,320 --> 01:46:25,800
Speaker 1: And so I think that's important for all sides of

1969
01:46:25,880 --> 01:46:28,679
Speaker 1: the of the of this question. And when it comes

1970
01:46:28,720 --> 01:46:32,000
Speaker 1: to going back to the issue of wildlife management, it's like,

1971
01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 1: we can do the best we can, but we should

1972
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 1: always do so humbly, with with humility and and and

1973
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:41,960
Speaker 1: saying I'm we're trying to We're trying, in all earnestness

1974
01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:44,600
Speaker 1: and all sincerity to do the best we can to

1975
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:48,840
Speaker 1: mitigate harm. I think that, you know, Yeah, that's a

1976
01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:51,160
Speaker 1: lot of overlap between you and I. I really do.

1977
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:53,960
Speaker 1: And I think if we can all take a step back,

1978
01:46:54,040 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, because we've talked a lot this year on

1979
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:58,840
Speaker 1: this show even about kind of like the divisiveness of

1980
01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:03,000
Speaker 1: of our cultures, and we were just talking about around

1981
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:08,240
Speaker 1: the collection of people around this podcast, people are collecting

1982
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:14,439
Speaker 1: around complex and almost at some points impossible ideas. Right.

1983
01:47:14,720 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 1: Rather than taking those complex and impossible ideas and in

1984
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:20,680
Speaker 1: crystallizing them into two sides and beating each other over

1985
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:23,960
Speaker 1: the head with those ideas, these people are gathering around

1986
01:47:24,040 --> 01:47:25,840
Speaker 1: these like Hey, man, you want to gather around and

1987
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:29,080
Speaker 1: talk about some ship we'll never figure out? Like, oh yeah, man,

1988
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:31,360
Speaker 1: I'd love to gather around and talk about some things

1989
01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:38,520
Speaker 1: that are existential, uh and and human, very human endeavors. Um.

1990
01:47:38,560 --> 01:47:42,920
Speaker 1: And that really is is ultimately the most warming thing

1991
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:44,760
Speaker 1: for me to think about that we're able to you

1992
01:47:44,760 --> 01:47:46,680
Speaker 1: and I are able to get together and kind of

1993
01:47:47,120 --> 01:47:50,800
Speaker 1: just just agree upon the complexity of our situation, you know,

1994
01:47:50,840 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: and not say that I'm right or you're wrong, or

1995
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:57,280
Speaker 1: or or we can't have a productive discourse or even

1996
01:47:57,400 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 1: not even really a discourse, just an agreement that we're

1997
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:06,120
Speaker 1: in this gumbo of of human and animal complexities that

1998
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:09,400
Speaker 1: will almost be never ending. It's a cause and effect game.

1999
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:12,920
Speaker 1: It's not a single it's not a zero sum game. Um.

2000
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:15,120
Speaker 1: And so you know we're talking about we're often talking

2001
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:18,559
Speaker 1: about trade offs and causes and effects and different things

2002
01:48:18,600 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 1: that are that are not a it's not a deterministic game. UM.

2003
01:48:22,439 --> 01:48:24,680
Speaker 1: We know that we're working on it together. And I

2004
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 1: think ultimately that's of doing this for three years, that's

2005
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:30,840
Speaker 1: where I I that's what I've learned. I've learned that

2006
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:34,479
Speaker 1: that we are doing this together, and it's a point

2007
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:37,360
Speaker 1: that we have divided ourselves into vegans and hunters was

2008
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:40,000
Speaker 1: the point where we lost our ability to figure it out,

2009
01:48:40,280 --> 01:48:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, or at least or at least get a

2010
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:47,520
Speaker 1: little closer to the actual solution in and of itself.

2011
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:50,599
Speaker 1: And so that's why, you know, having you on, man,

2012
01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:52,400
Speaker 1: I've always said, I'm like, Man, we you and I

2013
01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:55,919
Speaker 1: could probably take this onto the road and fill theaters

2014
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:57,840
Speaker 1: full of people that want to listen to us to

2015
01:48:57,960 --> 01:49:01,400
Speaker 1: mokes talk about, you know, like to do duds from

2016
01:49:01,479 --> 01:49:05,479
Speaker 1: opposite sides of the country talk about these ideas. And

2017
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:08,240
Speaker 1: the thing that's compelling about those conversations is not that

2018
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:11,719
Speaker 1: we figure it out, or that I believe in hunting

2019
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:14,000
Speaker 1: and you believe in animal rights and we can't and

2020
01:49:14,040 --> 01:49:15,960
Speaker 1: we're just yelling at each other. That's not it. What's

2021
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:21,720
Speaker 1: compelling is that we're able to move forward slowly and um,

2022
01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:23,680
Speaker 1: and then we don't have to yell at each other

2023
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:27,719
Speaker 1: to get there. Uh. And so we're in a crazy world.

2024
01:49:27,720 --> 01:49:29,439
Speaker 1: But at least that to me is something that we

2025
01:49:29,439 --> 01:49:33,760
Speaker 1: can we can figure out together and and I'm glad

2026
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:37,280
Speaker 1: to have done it, that's for sure. Yeah, me too, Ben,

2027
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:40,680
Speaker 1: And I think you touched on something another thing that

2028
01:49:40,720 --> 01:49:44,920
Speaker 1: I find to be important and in some ways disconcerting,

2029
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:49,040
Speaker 1: and that is especially in our current political culture as well.

2030
01:49:49,080 --> 01:49:54,000
Speaker 1: It's like you and I and many people like us,

2031
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:57,960
Speaker 1: who are you know, take quote, you know, one side

2032
01:49:58,040 --> 01:50:03,120
Speaker 1: or the other. I think our discussions are emblematic of

2033
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:06,760
Speaker 1: something that's that's vitally important to having, as you said,

2034
01:50:06,800 --> 01:50:11,040
Speaker 1: discourse or having a discussion, and that is having a

2035
01:50:11,240 --> 01:50:16,280
Speaker 1: shared set of values and a shared set of beliefs

2036
01:50:16,320 --> 01:50:20,680
Speaker 1: that at some foundational level, like when you scrape from

2037
01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:23,760
Speaker 1: the top down, here's a vegan animal, right sky, here's

2038
01:50:23,760 --> 01:50:26,880
Speaker 1: a hunter, and you get start to dig and drill down.

2039
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:31,519
Speaker 1: Then you say, well, you know, Ben wants the world

2040
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:34,439
Speaker 1: to be a certain way, and Ben doesn't want to

2041
01:50:34,600 --> 01:50:39,080
Speaker 1: unnecessarily harm and bend values things like animals and the

2042
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:43,040
Speaker 1: environment on autonomy, and Robert does this kind of stuff,

2043
01:50:43,080 --> 01:50:51,520
Speaker 1: and and so that provides a foundation for a fruitful discussion.

2044
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:54,760
Speaker 1: And the thing that I fear in looking at our

2045
01:50:54,800 --> 01:51:00,160
Speaker 1: current political situation is that for many people, it's seems

2046
01:51:00,200 --> 01:51:03,000
Speaker 1: to me in the country, we don't even share any

2047
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:07,920
Speaker 1: longer a kind of foundational notion of like what's valuable,

2048
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:11,000
Speaker 1: like what true? Here's something like what is true? Like,

2049
01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:14,120
Speaker 1: what does it mean? What is truth? Is it? Like?

2050
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:16,880
Speaker 1: For most of us, truth is like something happens in

2051
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:19,240
Speaker 1: the world. And then I tell I say a statement,

2052
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:22,120
Speaker 1: and if that statement corresponds to what happens in the world,

2053
01:51:22,160 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 1: then we say it's true. Right. So if I say

2054
01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:27,160
Speaker 1: snow is white, you go that why is that true?

2055
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 1: Because the stuff in the world separate from me is white.

2056
01:51:30,560 --> 01:51:33,679
Speaker 1: It's snow, right, And so just it's having that foundation,

2057
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:36,519
Speaker 1: we're like, okay, yeah, that yeah, we agree snow is white. Okay, cool.

2058
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:39,280
Speaker 1: And it seems like the more I read I get,

2059
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, when I teach my students, I get a

2060
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:45,519
Speaker 1: little bit, I get sad, and I get a little

2061
01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:50,759
Speaker 1: worried because the very foundations of like what's right, what's wrong,

2062
01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:55,120
Speaker 1: what's good, what's bad? What kind of world? It gets disconcerting.

2063
01:51:55,200 --> 01:51:58,000
Speaker 1: So these kinds of conversations I think that you and

2064
01:51:58,040 --> 01:52:00,800
Speaker 1: I have um and you know, not gon not like

2065
01:52:00,840 --> 01:52:03,439
Speaker 1: here tooting my own horn. You're the one who this is,

2066
01:52:03,439 --> 01:52:06,080
Speaker 1: You're the mastermind behind this. But what I what I

2067
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:09,240
Speaker 1: think is it's important and we've talked about this before. Man,

2068
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:14,200
Speaker 1: it's important to model a kind of discussion on very

2069
01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:18,280
Speaker 1: important and sensitive topics where there are these differences, but

2070
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:21,719
Speaker 1: at at the fundamental level, there are values that are shared.

2071
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:24,599
Speaker 1: And I think that's something we're really missing. And your

2072
01:52:24,640 --> 01:52:29,240
Speaker 1: your podcast, in my mind, has always provided an example

2073
01:52:29,520 --> 01:52:34,599
Speaker 1: of how to how to engage with different ideas in

2074
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:37,840
Speaker 1: a way that is, it comes from a place of respect,

2075
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 1: and it comes from a place of ultimately of wanting

2076
01:52:40,920 --> 01:52:43,040
Speaker 1: the same kind of world. You know that that your

2077
01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 1: quote opponents might want. So my hat is off to

2078
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 1: you for that. Well, thank you, thank you. It means

2079
01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:52,680
Speaker 1: it means the world to me to hear that. Um.

2080
01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 1: And also, I guess I'll end with this. I think

2081
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:58,840
Speaker 1: it's not only hunting in veganism or animal rights. How

2082
01:52:58,840 --> 01:53:02,040
Speaker 1: do you shape that debate? I I have a certain

2083
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:08,800
Speaker 1: particular notion about guns, but I would say at some level, uh,

2084
01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:13,120
Speaker 1: the polls, the two different ideas are often even though

2085
01:53:13,160 --> 01:53:17,040
Speaker 1: they're being marketed or or told that they're on opposite

2086
01:53:17,040 --> 01:53:21,280
Speaker 1: sides and that they could never understand each other, the

2087
01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 1: issue is that they're really thinking anti gun people in

2088
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:27,960
Speaker 1: pro Second Amendment folks are both talking about most of

2089
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:31,439
Speaker 1: the time the value of life, right control the guns

2090
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:34,840
Speaker 1: to save lives. Give me some guns to save my

2091
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:36,880
Speaker 1: life for my family's life. So they're both kind of

2092
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:42,000
Speaker 1: comparatively talking about the value of life and how guns

2093
01:53:42,040 --> 01:53:45,120
Speaker 1: affect that value, right And and same thing with hunting

2094
01:53:45,160 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 1: and vegan we're both talking about the value of animals

2095
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:53,599
Speaker 1: and how one action affects that value. And so we're

2096
01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:55,720
Speaker 1: people that are being told. It's often the people that

2097
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:59,200
Speaker 1: are being told to disagree or being driven by ideologies

2098
01:53:59,280 --> 01:54:01,960
Speaker 1: or group think confirmation bias to disagree with each other

2099
01:54:02,280 --> 01:54:04,200
Speaker 1: that often are coming from a place where they could

2100
01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:08,839
Speaker 1: agree um as as always give that idea of starting

2101
01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:10,920
Speaker 1: the same place. You walking away with each other, walking

2102
01:54:10,920 --> 01:54:12,800
Speaker 1: away from each other, and as you get further away,

2103
01:54:12,800 --> 01:54:15,920
Speaker 1: you yell louder like. That's just how it works. And

2104
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:17,840
Speaker 1: I and that's one thing I've learned over time. This

2105
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 1: is certainly that when you're being told that the other

2106
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 1: person over there is the enemy, it's most likely that

2107
01:54:23,400 --> 01:54:27,840
Speaker 1: you could probably find uh, something relational in your enemy

2108
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:29,680
Speaker 1: that you could say, look at that, we think the

2109
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:32,880
Speaker 1: same way about that, and then maybe you won't have

2110
01:54:32,920 --> 01:54:36,000
Speaker 1: any enemies anymore. I don't I certainly don't want any.

2111
01:54:36,040 --> 01:54:37,400
Speaker 1: And I've seen a lot of people in the media

2112
01:54:37,480 --> 01:54:41,920
Speaker 1: create enemies out of friends, to drive a narrative, or

2113
01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:44,160
Speaker 1: to drive in action, or to drive hate or fear.

2114
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:48,000
Speaker 1: When they don't have to, they could just say, everybody,

2115
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:50,040
Speaker 1: get along. I know it's not as compelling as Hayitan,

2116
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:54,080
Speaker 1: but just get along. Watch next week. You know when

2117
01:54:54,160 --> 01:54:57,240
Speaker 1: we get along. That would not be a good uh

2118
01:54:57,480 --> 01:54:59,200
Speaker 1: not be a good drop on cable TV. That does

2119
01:54:59,240 --> 01:55:03,360
Speaker 1: not sell new spe hell no, hell no. Well, Robert,

2120
01:55:03,440 --> 01:55:06,840
Speaker 1: thank you again for this, always being so willing to

2121
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:09,520
Speaker 1: come on and talk to us. And uh, as I said,

2122
01:55:09,560 --> 01:55:11,160
Speaker 1: I think at one point in our lives, you and

2123
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:15,200
Speaker 1: I should take this on the road. Um and uh

2124
01:55:15,280 --> 01:55:17,480
Speaker 1: once once there is a road to go on, I guess,

2125
01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:20,360
Speaker 1: and we can get I am I am game for

2126
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:22,880
Speaker 1: that because here's what I would the people who show

2127
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:25,400
Speaker 1: up to listen to you and I talk. I think

2128
01:55:26,120 --> 01:55:29,560
Speaker 1: there are people we we would um, we would like

2129
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,080
Speaker 1: to hang out with me. Whoever would show up to

2130
01:55:32,120 --> 01:55:34,720
Speaker 1: this kind of thing. Hey, after after the after we

2131
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:36,440
Speaker 1: did our thing, we can go you know, have a

2132
01:55:36,480 --> 01:55:38,840
Speaker 1: couple of beers and have a couple of beers. Yeah,

2133
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:41,320
Speaker 1: and whenever we get into the Roaring twenty two is

2134
01:55:41,360 --> 01:55:44,080
Speaker 1: when everybody's just out running around crazy with their vaccines.

2135
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 1: Maybe we can do it. All right, keep keep me

2136
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:49,640
Speaker 1: posted on that. Thank you so much. Man. All right, brother,

2137
01:55:49,600 --> 01:56:00,480
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you later. Man. That's it. That's all

2138
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:03,960
Speaker 1: another episode in the books. Thank you to roberts See Jones,

2139
01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:07,880
Speaker 1: the one and only. He is my favorite interview by

2140
01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:10,640
Speaker 1: far on this podcast. I wish you could have been

2141
01:56:10,640 --> 01:56:12,320
Speaker 1: in person, but I'm glad we got to do it.

2142
01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:14,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad we got to figure some stuff out. Thank

2143
01:56:14,160 --> 01:56:16,800
Speaker 1: you to Nuri Hong and everybody that's that's joined up

2144
01:56:17,120 --> 01:56:20,160
Speaker 1: th h C and the t C chapters all over

2145
01:56:20,200 --> 01:56:23,760
Speaker 1: the internets. We really appreciate you in every way possible.

2146
01:56:23,920 --> 01:56:26,360
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you before we get into uh, some

2147
01:56:26,440 --> 01:56:28,680
Speaker 1: major news here in a second, I gotta tell you

2148
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:33,280
Speaker 1: the Bear Grease Podcast with our boy Clay Nucom is

2149
01:56:33,320 --> 01:56:36,600
Speaker 1: now live and in color everywhere you might listen to podcasts,

2150
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:40,680
Speaker 1: especially I Heart Radio and their app. Have you listened, Obviously,

2151
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 1: you want to give your review, Phil, I've got an

2152
01:56:43,880 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 1: awesome user review of the show I want to read.

2153
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:48,560
Speaker 1: But Phil, you want to give your review of the

2154
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:52,400
Speaker 1: Bear Grease Podcast. Yeah, it's a tough podcast to sum

2155
01:56:52,480 --> 01:56:55,600
Speaker 1: up because it's kind of Clay I feel like it's

2156
01:56:55,680 --> 01:56:59,320
Speaker 1: kind of like Clay Unleashed. That's my review. It's kind

2157
01:56:59,320 --> 01:57:03,800
Speaker 1: of all all the stuff he's clearly um passionate about

2158
01:57:04,280 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 1: when it comes to hunting and hunting culture, specifically in

2159
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:12,080
Speaker 1: the South. Um So he brings in a lot of

2160
01:57:12,120 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 1: folklory interviews, all kinds of guests, from doctors and professors

2161
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:19,960
Speaker 1: all the way to just like old hillbillies. He's known

2162
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:24,560
Speaker 1: his entire life um to talk about just various subjects.

2163
01:57:24,640 --> 01:57:27,240
Speaker 1: You know. The first episode is about mountain lions. He's

2164
01:57:27,280 --> 01:57:32,920
Speaker 1: got episodes about hunting with dogs, about owls, just about.

2165
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:34,920
Speaker 1: So it's all it's I mean, he like, he just

2166
01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:38,640
Speaker 1: spans the gamut. It's an interesting podcast. It's a relatively

2167
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:40,720
Speaker 1: quick listen. It's only about an hour long, but it's

2168
01:57:40,840 --> 01:57:42,880
Speaker 1: more produced than a lot of our other stuff. So

2169
01:57:42,920 --> 01:57:46,880
Speaker 1: it's got an original soundtrack, lots of like music, um

2170
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:51,000
Speaker 1: sound design sequences and stuff. Who's doing the sound design? Phil,

2171
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:55,360
Speaker 1: who's doing the sound design? Oh I am ben Bam.

2172
01:57:55,480 --> 01:57:58,720
Speaker 1: That's Philly engineer playing in your ear holes. You're gonna

2173
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 1: want to listen to that, and I'll tell you it's

2174
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 1: it's like this American life for for as Clay would

2175
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:07,680
Speaker 1: say Hillbillies. Um, I would say that, and and he

2176
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:12,080
Speaker 1: got a five star review from Scott Harrison. Kay, and

2177
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:15,360
Speaker 1: the title of it is Beargrease Podcast is the marrow

2178
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:19,520
Speaker 1: of the world. And uh, it says it reads Ain't

2179
01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:21,720
Speaker 1: this something I told my man and my pap. I

2180
01:58:21,760 --> 01:58:24,080
Speaker 1: was listening to the Beargrease podcast a trap and be

2181
01:58:24,160 --> 01:58:26,720
Speaker 1: a mountain man and acted like they was gut shot.

2182
01:58:27,000 --> 01:58:30,080
Speaker 1: They said, son, make your life go here. Here's where

2183
01:58:30,120 --> 01:58:33,720
Speaker 1: the people's is. The Beargreas podcast is for animals and savages,

2184
01:58:34,080 --> 01:58:37,680
Speaker 1: I says, mother Goo. The beargreasee podcast is the marrow

2185
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 1: of the world. And by god, I was racked. And

2186
01:58:42,160 --> 01:58:44,880
Speaker 1: this is the place I have that guy on his podcast.

2187
01:58:45,400 --> 01:58:47,440
Speaker 1: That's what I told Clay. I was text with him like, yeah,

2188
01:58:47,440 --> 01:58:51,160
Speaker 1: I have that guy on man. He is rocking and rolling.

2189
01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:54,320
Speaker 1: Uh so go listen to Bargrease, Man. It is a

2190
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:59,400
Speaker 1: fantastical podcast. Um. And now listen Phil. Now we gotta

2191
01:58:59,400 --> 01:59:03,040
Speaker 1: get into something that is incredibly serious. I imagine, for

2192
01:59:03,040 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 1: for me, for you and for everyone else. Uh. And

2193
01:59:06,480 --> 01:59:10,920
Speaker 1: is is an important topic? Um? Because I have a

2194
01:59:10,920 --> 01:59:14,160
Speaker 1: big announcement today. And again it doesn't have anything to

2195
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,240
Speaker 1: do with anything else other than the words I'm about

2196
01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:20,160
Speaker 1: to say to you, So UM, listen closely. Over I

2197
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:22,280
Speaker 1: would say, over the last three years, I've poured my

2198
01:59:22,320 --> 01:59:25,600
Speaker 1: heart and soul into the Hunting collective, UM, and I've

2199
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:28,240
Speaker 1: been grateful for the chance to tackle almost every debate

2200
01:59:28,280 --> 01:59:33,880
Speaker 1: and impossibly complex issue we've come across here alongside everybody

2201
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:37,680
Speaker 1: that listens, all the th C listeners out there. Yeah,

2202
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:41,440
Speaker 1: most of most of what we can do and and

2203
01:59:42,840 --> 01:59:45,800
Speaker 1: figure out these complex issues is because we've had time.

2204
01:59:46,440 --> 01:59:48,640
Speaker 1: We've had time to think and react, reason and grow

2205
01:59:48,720 --> 01:59:54,040
Speaker 1: and eventually find our way forward. And that time is essential.

2206
01:59:54,640 --> 01:59:57,200
Speaker 1: But now our time will soon come to an end.

2207
01:59:58,240 --> 02:00:02,600
Speaker 1: The May eleventh episode of th HC are seventy seven

2208
02:00:02,680 --> 02:00:06,680
Speaker 1: recording will be our last recording, be our last episode.

2209
02:00:07,360 --> 02:00:10,560
Speaker 1: As Meat Eater continues to grow, my role has evolved

2210
02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:14,320
Speaker 1: and my attention is needed elsewhere as director of all

2211
02:00:14,360 --> 02:00:16,400
Speaker 1: the hunting content for the media to brand. The smartest

2212
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:19,360
Speaker 1: decision for our business, which is the business I care about,

2213
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:23,160
Speaker 1: is to channel my focus into new content that's going

2214
02:00:23,200 --> 02:00:25,360
Speaker 1: to resonate with our audience. And I can promise you

2215
02:00:25,360 --> 02:00:27,320
Speaker 1: that I will bring the same thoughtful approach to our

2216
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:30,520
Speaker 1: hunt content for the new and familiar faces, including Clay Nukem,

2217
02:00:31,320 --> 02:00:34,080
Speaker 1: that you're used to from this show. You know, at

2218
02:00:34,120 --> 02:00:37,600
Speaker 1: its core this is hard for me to kind of explain.

2219
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:40,040
Speaker 1: And again we have four more weeks ago, so we'll

2220
02:00:40,040 --> 02:00:43,520
Speaker 1: continue to talk about this, but you know, at its core,

2221
02:00:43,600 --> 02:00:47,680
Speaker 1: th HC really hasn't changed since we debuted it in February.

2222
02:00:47,960 --> 02:00:50,960
Speaker 1: The show is always meant to explore why we hunt

2223
02:00:51,160 --> 02:00:54,480
Speaker 1: through an ongoing conversation, and there's always been guests from

2224
02:00:54,520 --> 02:00:57,520
Speaker 1: inside and outside of our community that have come to

2225
02:00:57,640 --> 02:01:02,440
Speaker 1: help us work through those conversations. For each time we've

2226
02:01:02,480 --> 02:01:05,600
Speaker 1: had somebody on, we discovered these different perspectives on hunting,

2227
02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:08,440
Speaker 1: and we began to build a better collective vision for

2228
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:11,280
Speaker 1: who we are and why we love this and chasing

2229
02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:14,320
Speaker 1: that collectivision. I have learned to always actively challenge my

2230
02:01:14,360 --> 02:01:18,320
Speaker 1: own beliefs and the beliefs of my and our community.

2231
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:21,800
Speaker 1: I have hunted for my own biases and I've tried

2232
02:01:21,800 --> 02:01:24,560
Speaker 1: to understand their impact on my worldview. I've become an

2233
02:01:24,560 --> 02:01:28,080
Speaker 1: admirer of ecosystem level thinking in the North American model

2234
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 1: of wildlife conservation. I've tried to build a more inclusive

2235
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:36,920
Speaker 1: place promoting a diversity of not only backgrounds and skin colors,

2236
02:01:36,920 --> 02:01:40,960
Speaker 1: but also ideas and early on this program, I remember

2237
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:44,240
Speaker 1: saying one time that I didn't want this podcast. I

2238
02:01:44,240 --> 02:01:47,640
Speaker 1: didn't want THHC to be about me. It was always

2239
02:01:47,640 --> 02:01:51,120
Speaker 1: meant to be about us. But the truth is this

2240
02:01:51,160 --> 02:01:53,680
Speaker 1: show has been a story about my life, and I

2241
02:01:53,680 --> 02:01:57,800
Speaker 1: imagine it will remain as a weird time capsule for

2242
02:01:57,880 --> 02:02:02,000
Speaker 1: who I was and who I have become. I created

2243
02:02:02,040 --> 02:02:04,920
Speaker 1: this show because I needed to find my own y

2244
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:07,760
Speaker 1: along the way. It has grown and changed organically, as

2245
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:09,960
Speaker 1: if we were all designing and building a kick as

2246
02:02:10,040 --> 02:02:14,560
Speaker 1: roller coaster while we were already riding it. Today, I'm

2247
02:02:14,600 --> 02:02:16,960
Speaker 1: happy to have had that opportunity to spent so many

2248
02:02:17,040 --> 02:02:20,800
Speaker 1: hours with every single one of you, and I'm proud

2249
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:24,200
Speaker 1: that we've gathered around our shared passion for almost for

2250
02:02:24,360 --> 02:02:27,480
Speaker 1: over really over three years. You know. Ask for me

2251
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:30,520
Speaker 1: and my future, I can't tell you. I am absolutely

2252
02:02:30,520 --> 02:02:32,640
Speaker 1: gonna be right here at Meat Eater helping this company

2253
02:02:32,640 --> 02:02:36,160
Speaker 1: achieve our collective goals, and I'm going to create impactful

2254
02:02:36,240 --> 02:02:39,800
Speaker 1: content along the way for you all. It's just not

2255
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:42,840
Speaker 1: going to be here at th HC. But listen, Phil,

2256
02:02:42,920 --> 02:02:45,600
Speaker 1: you know this th HC is not over yet. We've

2257
02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:47,960
Speaker 1: got four weeks to go to say goodbye to you all,

2258
02:02:48,280 --> 02:02:52,120
Speaker 1: and we've got Phil the engineers first Turkey Hunt as

2259
02:02:52,160 --> 02:02:54,720
Speaker 1: the final most important thing will have done in the

2260
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:57,680
Speaker 1: three years of this program. So there's still some fun

2261
02:02:57,760 --> 02:02:59,840
Speaker 1: left to be had. All I'm gonna ask you guys,

2262
02:03:00,000 --> 02:03:05,480
Speaker 1: it was raising white Claw, have a drink, digest this news,

2263
02:03:05,920 --> 02:03:07,920
Speaker 1: and we've got a few more shows. We've got more laughs,

2264
02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:13,120
Speaker 1: more conversations that will make us think, Uh, Phil, any

2265
02:03:13,160 --> 02:03:17,640
Speaker 1: commentary on your part about the the ending, the the

2266
02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:21,120
Speaker 1: sun setting of this year t HC program, I kind

2267
02:03:21,120 --> 02:03:23,280
Speaker 1: of just wanted to leave it, leave it with what

2268
02:03:23,320 --> 02:03:25,480
Speaker 1: you said, Ben, because that was that was a great,

2269
02:03:26,120 --> 02:03:29,360
Speaker 1: great kind of statement there. But I told I told

2270
02:03:29,360 --> 02:03:32,400
Speaker 1: this to you, and you first told me about this news,

2271
02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:39,200
Speaker 1: which was that the timing of th HC ending. I mean,

2272
02:03:39,840 --> 02:03:41,880
Speaker 1: you know, you could say that there's like you know,

2273
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:44,760
Speaker 1: there's not like a good way for people taking this news,

2274
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:46,880
Speaker 1: but I would say it's the best possible way th

2275
02:03:47,000 --> 02:03:51,520
Speaker 1: HC could be ending is right now. Around these chapters

2276
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:56,000
Speaker 1: which started off as a complete like off hand comment

2277
02:03:56,160 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 1: from you or me about Eric Hall mentoring someone in

2278
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:02,720
Speaker 1: the Blu Ray Mountains or whatever. And I we said

2279
02:04:02,760 --> 02:04:04,840
Speaker 1: it could be all like you could have it. It

2280
02:04:04,840 --> 02:04:07,040
Speaker 1: could be like American Legions, and I think could be one.

2281
02:04:07,120 --> 02:04:10,800
Speaker 1: And then that's the THHC halls that the cult chapters

2282
02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:14,440
Speaker 1: and that it's actually happened. And from what we heard,

2283
02:04:15,560 --> 02:04:19,240
Speaker 1: like from Luke Reeves and Nuri and everyone on Facebook,

2284
02:04:20,040 --> 02:04:22,800
Speaker 1: I mean, this this thing, it's this train is not

2285
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:27,600
Speaker 1: stopping with the end of the podcast, and it's going

2286
02:04:27,640 --> 02:04:30,200
Speaker 1: to live on for who knows how long with the

2287
02:04:30,200 --> 02:04:34,280
Speaker 1: communities that you created. And I know that that this

2288
02:04:34,320 --> 02:04:36,080
Speaker 1: news is probably hard for a lot of people to hear,

2289
02:04:36,120 --> 02:04:38,440
Speaker 1: but I think it could It could not have been

2290
02:04:39,280 --> 02:04:42,040
Speaker 1: and the show cannot be ending in a better state.

2291
02:04:42,880 --> 02:04:46,040
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you agree, but I do agree.

2292
02:04:46,320 --> 02:04:48,520
Speaker 1: I do agree, And I never you know, you never

2293
02:04:48,560 --> 02:04:50,920
Speaker 1: know to expect when you talk to somebody like Nuri

2294
02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:54,400
Speaker 1: or Luke or somebody that's involved in the leadership and

2295
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:57,440
Speaker 1: and those chapters, you never know, um how it's gonna go.

2296
02:04:57,680 --> 02:05:00,440
Speaker 1: But he what what what is importan and to me

2297
02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:03,560
Speaker 1: for everyone to know is that the connections that have

2298
02:05:03,640 --> 02:05:08,240
Speaker 1: been made because of this show in those chapters could

2299
02:05:08,280 --> 02:05:11,880
Speaker 1: not have been a better result of all the conversations

2300
02:05:11,920 --> 02:05:13,720
Speaker 1: we've had over the last three years. It could not

2301
02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:16,520
Speaker 1: if if I mean me and Philly. So you get

2302
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:18,840
Speaker 1: excited over two people getting together to go hunt, but

2303
02:05:18,880 --> 02:05:21,680
Speaker 1: now we've got thousands of people getting together. And I

2304
02:05:21,720 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 1: can't tell you how heart and di am by that, um,

2305
02:05:25,200 --> 02:05:27,000
Speaker 1: and how much I look forward to seeing what's going

2306
02:05:27,080 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 1: to happen there. And so yeah, fail, you're exactly right,

2307
02:05:29,720 --> 02:05:31,839
Speaker 1: and and everything has to come to an end somehow,

2308
02:05:31,880 --> 02:05:35,720
Speaker 1: some way, and um, this is this is our way

2309
02:05:35,880 --> 02:05:39,480
Speaker 1: and Phil's first hunt, and these chapters into the future

2310
02:05:39,760 --> 02:05:42,440
Speaker 1: is how we're going to move forward. And I'm excited.

2311
02:05:42,560 --> 02:05:47,040
Speaker 1: I'm not sad. Um, I'm excited. I'm excited for what

2312
02:05:47,040 --> 02:05:48,720
Speaker 1: what's going to happen in the short term and in

2313
02:05:48,760 --> 02:05:51,400
Speaker 1: the long term. And also Phil, I think I could

2314
02:05:51,400 --> 02:05:54,800
Speaker 1: sell this microphone on eBay and get gets a sweet

2315
02:05:54,840 --> 02:05:57,160
Speaker 1: amount of money, a couple hundred bucks probably. Yeah. Sure,

2316
02:05:57,240 --> 02:05:59,120
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell anyone, So don't worry about it,

2317
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:01,800
Speaker 1: all right, thanks man, Well I appreciate it. Listen, everybody,

2318
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:04,760
Speaker 1: digest this news. Come back next week, ready to listen,

2319
02:06:04,920 --> 02:06:07,320
Speaker 1: ready to have fun, ready to be challenged, and we'll

2320
02:06:07,360 --> 02:06:09,480
Speaker 1: do it for four more weeks here at the Hunting Collective,

2321
02:06:09,680 --> 02:06:16,640
Speaker 1: say bye Phil, goodbye. Clean you're gun, and tune your

2322
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:20,320
Speaker 1: bowl where the hunt clicked, showing calling hunters new and

2323
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:25,760
Speaker 1: all the hunt collected, show working pick and shuttle or

2324
02:06:25,960 --> 02:06:30,280
Speaker 1: working being in hand. We call regate nice lovers of

2325
02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:33,800
Speaker 1: the lane. I'm the land. We're focused. We're just living

2326
02:06:33,880 --> 02:06:38,520
Speaker 1: for the searching, dreaming of fire and a salty gilburn.

2327
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 1: But we ain't coming back to heal. It's colden lane,

2328
02:06:42,920 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 1: taking it slow. So week and shoot straight. Clean your

2329
02:06:48,120 --> 02:06:51,720
Speaker 1: gun to your bowl where the hunt clicked, show calling

2330
02:06:51,880 --> 02:06:54,960
Speaker 1: hunters new and all the ain't no cold une