WEBVTT - Big Oil on Campus 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.640 So this was back when I was a grad student 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.080 at Harvard and I was working at the Belfer Center 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:29.600 for Science and International Affairs, and you know that's in 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.320 the Kennedy School of Government. The role of fossil fuel 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.800 companies in academia had started to become a bigger issue. 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.840 And this was around probably like twenty fifteen or so. 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.320 For instance, I think you know, when the Journalism School 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:49.320 at Columbia came out with the Exxon New investigation, or 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.320 they started doing some work related to that. Then Exon 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.440 responded by kind of threatening to take away their funding 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.680 in so many words, and it just people became more 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.680 and more interested in who's funding these programs at universities 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.960 and is it fossil fuel companies and what kind of 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.240 pressure does that put on those academic programs to do 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:13.520 one thing or another, or study one thing or another, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:14.880 or not to study something. 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:16.920 This has been front up. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.640 He first told me the story back in twenty seventeen, 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:22.839 and it's actually kind of what got me wondering about 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:28.760 fossil feel funding of social science programs at universities. That investigation, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:33.240 he mentioned, Exon knew was led by Columbia Journalism School 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.560 graduates and it found that Exxon had been using climate 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.760 science to shape its own business plans for decades, but 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.560 had simultaneously been hiding that science from the public. 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.600 I started to look into this issue at Harvard, looking 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.400 at what programs are funded by oil companies, and a 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.120 lot of the programs at the Kennedy School, the Government 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.960 school to do with public policy, were funded by oil companies. 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.919 For example, I worked at the Belfer Center for Science 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.440 International Affairs. It's one of the most influential academic think 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:12.079 tanks in the world, and the founder of that founded 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.919 an oil and gas company. So back to twenty fifteen, 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.880 so this issue is starting to emerge. I'm starting to 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.800 write about it a little bit, and it was seen 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.320 as a very unpopular thing to do. And at this 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.480 early stage it was seen as like just really uncouth 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.320 to raise this issue. And I even had professors at 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.280 the Kennedy School who just wouldn't talk to me, I 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.680 think because they were upset that I was writing about 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:40.280 the issue. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.560 But anyway, to get to the main point. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.919 Once we were called into an all staff meeting for 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.640 the researchers at the Kennedy School in the Belfer Center 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.760 and we were simply instructed that if any journalists come 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.600 to talk to us about oil companies funding the research 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.160 done there, just don't talk to them. You know, are 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.600 told that we don't want activists, We don't want journalists 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.440 digging around and finding out that the programs are being 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:11.079 funded by oil companies. I mean, when I heard this, 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.600 you know, I was pretty surprised that level of secrecy 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:16.200 was being pursued. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.000 And this is Harvard that he's talking about, like the 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.800 university where Jeffrey Sopron and Naomi Erescus work and there 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.639 are two of the foremost scholars of how like fossil 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.360 fuel propaganda even works. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:30.160 Just incredible. 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.280 And it's funny because there are so many other schools 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.880 that take corporate funding, but then they like proudly name 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:41.160 buildings or even entire departments after them. But here's Harvard 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:46.080 hiding this influence. Our university is generally pretty transparent about 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:47.920 where their research funding comes from. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:52.960 Yeah, that's like traditionally been kind of an ethical policy 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.240 at universities, although I do think that it's becoming more 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.920 common to hide that funding or just say anonymous donors 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.400 or things like that. But at the time that this 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.640 was happening at Harvard. This is like twenty fifteen. Ben 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.680 found it to be very, very strange. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:16.360 We always advertised and disclosed who was funding our research, 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.280 and we're generally proud of it, but we definitely didn't 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.640 keep it a secret, and so encountering this secrecy in 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.839 the public policy space, I just thought that was so strange. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.920 And of course for me, when they said don't talk 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.600 about this thing, I wanted to talk about it more. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.200 My ears perked up and I was like, probably dozing 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.560 off in the back or something, and I popped up 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:41.120 ort and. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.080 I was like, Oh, that's something interesting's going on. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.320 But I think it speaks to the broader issue, which is, 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.880 to what degree has the fossil fuel industry shaped very 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.159 public policy responses and paradigms and ways of thinking about 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.920 climate change as a problem. How has the industry shaped 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.279 those things at the basic level, at the level of 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.280 students learning about them in universities. 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.159 Yes, Ben, that's exactly what this whole series is about, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.039 how they've shaped thinking about not only like the problem, 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.479 but also the possible solutions. Welcome to the final episode 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.440 in the ABC's of Big Oil from Earth and Drilled. 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:17.839 I'm Darna Noir. 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.760 And I'm Amy Westervelt. Today. We're going to college. 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:34.560 Stay with us. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.480 She's got a man, She's promised to love, honor. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.159 And keep house for the right way. 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:46.960 That mean I never helped help with the dishes. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.840 Never bell does my dishes? Look that makes us to 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:54.520 shine without washing your white. 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:05.840 I wish I had a cat castle in the sky, 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:15.600 away up high where bluebirds like to fly of cozy 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:22.760 little castle with a hundred rooms or more. Dear someday, 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:27.640 what stars for windows, clothes for rugs, or rainbow for 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:36.200 a dawn? I wish I just wish I had a 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:46.440 decent kitchen. Hey, we're so sad, and this is the 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.360 first time I've noticed it. 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:54.000 Nothing really not very convincing, Jane girls. 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:56.400 Whatever it is, I've got just. 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:57.200 A cure for it. 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.520 There's a sensational sail going on watching and. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.400 You, ha would be the ideal tonic for you. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.160 I'm going down this say afternoon for smalls free. 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.440 How about coming with him? 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.239 A lot of ads and TV and movies and stuff 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.440 from the fifties kind of paint this picture of post 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.000 World War two Americans being just like so relieved that 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.680 the war was over that they embraced consumerism wholeheartedly, and 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.280 all of that also gets wrapped up in like patriotism 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.400 and nationalism too. But Amy, it seems like you actually 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.720 found something recently that revealed what was kind of going 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:34.800 on under all that, right. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.200 Yes, I found this archive in Wisconsin that held all 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.480 of the old papers of one of Standard Oil's early 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:43.440 pr guys. 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:44.880 His name was Earl Newsom. 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.080 He worked for Standard Oil of New Jersey, which is 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.440 now Exon Mobil from the late nineteen thirties to the 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.840 late nineteen sixties. Either he or someone in his family 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.080 donated like every single file from his business to the 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.000 Wisconsin Historical Society archive, and there were dozens and dozens 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:06.520 of boxes from his years at Standard. Okay, I've got 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:19.200 a folder marked confidential here, so that's interesting. See what's tony. 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:17.880 Premise? 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:25.880 Hmm, Okay, this is some kind of strategy. It's nineteen 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:37.160 forty four. Wow, Okay, holy shit. At the top, there's 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.320 typed at the top of this page, says the premise, 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.840 and then it goes next to crushing the axis and 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:49.200 avoiding runaway inflation while we're doing it. The most important 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.120 problem confronting us is to keep the American people convinced 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.959 of the intrinsic social and economic worth of the free 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:04.600 enterprise system and of its periority over statism, so that 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:09.559 the people will be determined to remove unnecessary governmental controls 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:17.640 and re establish competitive, democratic, free enterprise capitalism when the 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:26.200 war is won. I found this plan from nineteen forty four, 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.440 so the year that World War Two was ending. This 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.040 plan goes on to lay out how various companies and 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:37.000 industries can coordinate their pro free enterprise campaigns without seeming 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.280 like they're coordinating, and of course without using the words 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.920 free enterprise. There's even a whole bit about how they're 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.040 not going to use the US Chamber of Commerce or 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.240 the National Association of Manufacturers because you know, everyone knows 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:50.680 they're just shills for business. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.760 And again, this is around nineteen forty four, so let 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.280 me just make sure I've got this straight. Americans got 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.920 too used to the idea that the government could actually 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.280 maybe you know, do a pretty good job of taking 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.840 care of them and making society work. And that was 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.640 bad for business because if people started thinking that the 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.920 state should be involved in their lives, then that means oh, 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:14.920 no regulation and maybe even a slippery slope to communism. 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.040 Exactly, and The reason this really blew my mind is 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.400 that I happened to read this nineteen forty four strategy 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.440 document the same day that I read all the stuff 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:29.080 from Frank Abrams on why standards should invest in universities. 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:31.920 So you might remember that name from the first episode 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:32.559 of this series. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.400 Abrams was a VP at Standard Oil of New Jersey 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.960 during this same time period, and by the early fifties 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.240 he was leading the company's university investments and encouraging other 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.480 companies and industries to do the same, precisely to push 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.840 this exact idea that government intervention is bad, that free 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.720 enterprise is what keeps America free. He was also really 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.720 big on the idea that companies needed to support private 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.880 universities or else the only ones left would be government funded. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.720 Oh no, communist universities. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.040 But yeah, it totally makes sense that they'd be donating 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:13.000 to more private universities, although just to be clear, corporations 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.600 definitely donate massive amounts of money to public universities too. 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.440 A lot of what this points to is that it 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.800 really wasn't so much that companies were actually concerned about 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.280 American people becoming too an independent. It's not about the 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.040 independence of American people. That's not what scares them. It's 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.240 really that they wanted the American public to be dependent, sure, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.400 but on them, not on the government. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:35.640 That's right, that's right. 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:40.640 So today American companies provide a little over thirteen percent 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.760 of the funding for universities, which is a pretty large 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.079 percentage of the money that you know is funding all 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.160 kinds of research in the country. Another thirteen and a 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:55.360 half percent comes from this nebulous other organizations category, which 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.720 is mostly what are called donor advised funds. And to 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.720 give you some indication of what those generally are, donors 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.080 trust the pot of money that the Kochs use to 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.560 fund all kinds of stuff, from right wing legislation firm 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.679 ALEC to news networks that publish free market propaganda to 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.880 climate denying university centers. It's a donor advice fund. So 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.679 this means that you know, there's a fair bit of 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.079 you know, kind of hidden corporate money also going into universities. 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.320 The rest is pretty evenly split between foundations and high 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.360 net worth individuals. You know, there's like this whole idea 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.880 right now of like the liberal elite trope of universities. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:43.400 But all this talk of conservative right wing like pro 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.200 business ideas being muzzled kind of seems like totally misguided. 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.760 I mean, it sure seems like the conservative agenda at 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:55.160 school is alive and a well and flush with cash too. Yeah, 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.200 that's right, and that's really important because when we looked 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.080 into what oil companies and the people who love them 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.600 were funding at universities, especially when we looked outside of 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.040 the scientific sphere, a lot of it. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.240 A lot was economics. 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.560 So for example, there's this organization called the National Bureau 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.400 of Economic Research, which you know, sounds like a totally 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:19.600 neutral government agency, right, totally. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.400 Yeah. I think for years I thought that it was 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.679 like a really boring a federal agency, but it's not. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:25.200 It's not. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.960 It's a private, nonprofit research organization. 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.800 That's right, And it claims to be non partisan, and 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.880 it has all of these statements on its website about 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.839 how it avoids conflict of interest and things like that. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:43.480 But its funders do include x on Mobile and the 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:48.880 Bradley Foundation, which actually spends more than the entire Coke network, 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:54.320 pushing a very conservative agenda that also includes claim and denial. 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:56.360 Yeah, and you can see it everywhere. 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.679 Like one of the top economists Mit is the president 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.839 of the National Bureau of Economic Research, the president their 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.800 Law and economics guy runs the Center for Law, Economics 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.000 and Business at Harvard too, and that center was actually 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:15.040 created with funding from John lm Olan and the Oln Foundation, 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:20.520 which has a long history of funding what Source Watch calls, 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.240 quote a chain of anti environmental, pro business legal advocacy 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:26.840 organizations unquote. 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:28.960 And where did John Owen. 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.760 Make his money, Well, guns and chemicals, naturally. 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.480 Yeah, And a big part of what he did with 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.080 all that money was fund the creation of these centers. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:39.760 I mean dozens of them. 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.520 John m Ollen Lawn Economic Centers or centers named something 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.960 similar to that, are at universities all over the country, 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.120 most of the top universities. 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:51.720 So in addition to the one at. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.760 Harvard, there's one at Stanford, UCLA, Yale, University of Virginia. 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.680 I know I'm missing several in that list. Olan was 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.320 a big opponent of what's called the law and economics movement, 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.960 which again sounds like something fairly innocuous, you know, but 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.400 it's this movement that arose amidst that whole post World 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:16.800 War two concern that Americans would turn on free enterprise. 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.720 So the law and economics folks advocated for analyzing any 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.920 legislation or legal action or even legal institutions through an 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.480 economic lens, so really evaluating the value of any kind 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:34.000 of policy or law issue via its economic impact. 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.720 Yeah, and John em Ollen came across this whole sort 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.800 of framework in the seventies and obviously it's like a 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:41.800 perfect fit for him. 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:42.560 He loves it. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.360 He throws a ton of money at it, and he 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.800 creates these centers that really, like most universities, start looking 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.200 and you start finding them everywhere, and that really accelerates 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.720 this whole movement, this whole you know, law and economics movement, 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.680 and that lays the ground work for DA DA DA 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:07.080 the Federalist Society, which of course is the organization that's 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.720 been working to get more conservative judges appointed in courts 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:12.080 throughout the country. 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:12.600 Right. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.200 And we're talking about all of this not just because 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.920 it's like weird and interesting, but also because it dovetails 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.320 with some new research that ben Fronta has done looking 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:28.840 at fossil fuel involvement in economics research, and particularly in 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.840 economics research that influences policy discussions. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.080 The question that's obvious that we should ask is what 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.560 effect has that had what has been the influence of 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.720 decades of funding from these special interests. Latest research is 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.040 one example, some new research that will be out soon, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.960 and by the time this airs, it might already be out. 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:53.720 It tracks the. 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:58.440 Activity of a group of economic consultants who were hired 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:02.440 by the petroleum industry for decades to produce analyzes that 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.200 were then used by the companies and by others opposing 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.000 restrictions on fossil fuels to tell the public that it 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.200 would just be way too expensive to act on climate, 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.639 and that in any case, climate was not going to 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.879 be a big deal, so the best thing to do 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.640 is just do nothing. And this was the economic ammunition 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:31.960 that the industry used alongside their scientific mergence of doubt. 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.600 This point that Ben is making here is really really important. 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:37.159 In the last decade or so, I think there's been 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.800 this increasing realization amongst many people who think about climate 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.720 change that climate inaction is not really caused by a 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.840 lack of scientific evidence, or even really by a lack 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.600 of understanding. I think mostly now we're all kind of 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.119 thinking of it as an issue of political will, and 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.719 this kind of stuff kind of plays directly into that 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.440 and shows you where that lack of political will comes 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:00.560 from Yeah. 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:00.760 That's right. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.720 It reminds me of this thing that climate scientists Ken 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.280 Caldera said to me a couple years back. 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.919 You know, back in the eighties, we believe the information 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.640 deficit model of social change and that if we could 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.760 only get the information to policy makers that they would 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:18.840 do the right thing. 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.199 And now we see in the age of Trump that 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.160 it's you know, really, it's not about information deficit. It's 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.199 about power relations and people wanting to keep economic and 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:36.040 political power, so that just telling people some more climate 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.760 science isn't going to help anything. And surprise, surprise, in 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.639 this country, especially after citizens United and all of that 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:51.680 money and power, entrenched power has disproportionate political influence. You know, 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:57.880 I don't understand how social change happens when it challenges 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:03.040 the interests of a well entrenched and powerful minority. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.240 And I mean, it seems to me that that's the 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:11.280 central question of how that happens. And it's not climate science, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:15.080 it's political strategy. I have no idea what the right 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:16.560 answer is, but I'd like to know. 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.800 Right and if that wealthy and powerful minority is also 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.880 funding a bunch of economics and law and public policy programs, 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.800 for instance, all of those ideas get even more entrenched. 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.119 It's like this self repetuating loop where you have the 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.280 research that keeps justifying the policy, and the companies and 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.960 the billionaires and the think tanks keep funding the research, 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:43.960 and that keeps going back into the policy. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:45.480 Yes, totally. 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:49.359 And I should note here that Caldera himself might be 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:50.560 getting a bird's eye view of. 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.480 That, because he's. 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.399 Kind of like Bill Gates's guy on climate research at 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.359 the moment. But I want to be clear here that 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.520 a lot of researchers who get funding one way or 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.280 another from fossil fuel companies or from people or organizations 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.800 that are friendly to the industry are not necessarily directly compromised. 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.960 It doesn't look like, you know, some excellent executive like 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.680 showing up in their lab and telling them what to research. 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.520 I understandably get a little defensive about this, and we're 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.800 not trying to say that that anyone at any of 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:26.560 these many many universities is, you know, ethically compromised in 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:27.960 some kind of personal way. 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.200 We're talking about a systemic issue here. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:34.320 Not any one institution or academic And then you know 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.800 the other problem is that there's not really like a 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.840 bunch of funding waiting around if all of the fossil 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:44.200 fuel or other industry funding goes away. 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:46.760 Yeah, exactly where where are you going to get the 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:48.960 rest of that funding if it goes away? What's there 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.639 to follow the gap? Most academic researchers aren't like these 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.560 few economists that ben Fronta have found. But there's some 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.280 who are really pretty specifically and strategically at carrying water 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.000 for the industry. Let's hear a little bit more of 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:02.640 that story. 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.240 One thing I do in my historical research is I'll 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:11.240 download like the entire online newspaper record. For example, I 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:15.120 studied the American Petroleum Institute, and so I'll download every 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.560 newspaper article on an online database with the words American 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.800 Patrolling Institute and global warming or climate change in their record. 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.040 You know, that might be a few thousand articles, and 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.359 I'll sort them in chronological order, and I'll read all 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.639 of them just to get the story, just to see 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.760 what are their phases of communication, you know, what are 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.600 the battles they're fighting at different times. And I was 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.520 doing that over you know, it takes many days to 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.960 read that much material, but I was doing that, and 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:45.600 I noticed that huh, like these there are these economists 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.159 that keep coming up again and again, and I was like, 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:50.200 that's interesting. And this is you know, this was stuff 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.320 from like the early to mid nineteen nineties, so this 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:55.480 is a while ago. I thought, Oh, I'm sure they're 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.280 not doing stuff anymore. Then at the same time I 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.560 was doing this research, President Trump announced that the US 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.600 was going to pull out of the Paris Agreement, and 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.159 in his speech he said that the Paris Agreement was 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.440 going to cost an American family, you know, four thousand 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.960 dollars per year or something like that. You know, it's 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.720 going to cost a lot of money. And I thought, 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.560 this doesn't really make sense because those parts of the 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.720 Paris Agreement are not legally binding to begin with. I thought, 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.919 who are the economists that are saying this, Where's this 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:29.800 analysis coming from to give President Trump the talking points, 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.600 you know, to say that in a speech. And I 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.399 looked up the economic analysis that that President Trump used 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:38.680 and it was the same people. 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:42.240 It was the same economists. 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.200 That I had that I had noticed we're working on 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.280 these things in like the mid nineties, giving the same 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:51.040 talking points against the Kyoto Protocol in nineteen ninety seven. 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.679 Oh, my God, this like history on repeat thing just 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:56.199 kills me. 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:59.399 The fact that it's the literal same economists giving the 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.879 exact same talking points to another president pulling out of 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.240 another international climate treaty twenty years later. 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.040 I mean by like twenty ten or so, they'd already 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.520 they've been at this for twenty years. And you know, 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:14.520 Senators were saying, look, it's like, we don't even need 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:16.840 to study because we know that they've. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.399 Already been saying this for twenty years. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:23.240 And in a way, the scientific merchants of doubt ultimately failed. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:28.600 I guess their power waned, but the economics part, their 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.280 power did not really wane in the same way. And 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.639 you know, the implications are larger as well, because I 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.199 looked at this economic consulting firm largely because I just 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:41.000 stumbled upon their activities. 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.160 But they were not alone. 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:46.359 You know, there were other consulting firms doing very similar work. 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:51.000 But also their work is not that different from the 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.879 work done at MIT, at the Joint program where they 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:58.560 do economic modeling there. That program is funded by the 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:01.520