1
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: So this was back when I was a grad student

2
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,080
Speaker 1: at Harvard and I was working at the Belfer Center

3
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 1: for Science and International Affairs, and you know that's in

4
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 1: the Kennedy School of Government. The role of fossil fuel

5
00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 1: companies in academia had started to become a bigger issue.

6
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,840
Speaker 1: And this was around probably like twenty fifteen or so.

7
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,320
Speaker 1: For instance, I think you know, when the Journalism School

8
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 1: at Columbia came out with the Exxon New investigation, or

9
00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,320
Speaker 1: they started doing some work related to that. Then Exon

10
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: responded by kind of threatening to take away their funding

11
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 1: in so many words, and it just people became more

12
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 1: and more interested in who's funding these programs at universities

13
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,960
Speaker 1: and is it fossil fuel companies and what kind of

14
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: pressure does that put on those academic programs to do

15
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: one thing or another, or study one thing or another,

16
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: or not to study something.

17
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 2: This has been front up.

18
00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,640
Speaker 3: He first told me the story back in twenty seventeen,

19
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,839
Speaker 3: and it's actually kind of what got me wondering about

20
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,760
Speaker 3: fossil feel funding of social science programs at universities. That investigation,

21
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,240
Speaker 3: he mentioned, Exon knew was led by Columbia Journalism School

22
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 3: graduates and it found that Exxon had been using climate

23
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 3: science to shape its own business plans for decades, but

24
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,560
Speaker 3: had simultaneously been hiding that science from the public.

25
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,600
Speaker 1: I started to look into this issue at Harvard, looking

26
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 1: at what programs are funded by oil companies, and a

27
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: lot of the programs at the Kennedy School, the Government

28
00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 1: school to do with public policy, were funded by oil companies.

29
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,919
Speaker 1: For example, I worked at the Belfer Center for Science

30
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,440
Speaker 1: International Affairs. It's one of the most influential academic think

31
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,079
Speaker 1: tanks in the world, and the founder of that founded

32
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,919
Speaker 1: an oil and gas company. So back to twenty fifteen,

33
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,880
Speaker 1: so this issue is starting to emerge. I'm starting to

34
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,800
Speaker 1: write about it a little bit, and it was seen

35
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 1: as a very unpopular thing to do. And at this

36
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 1: early stage it was seen as like just really uncouth

37
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: to raise this issue. And I even had professors at

38
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 1: the Kennedy School who just wouldn't talk to me, I

39
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 1: think because they were upset that I was writing about

40
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: the issue.

41
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 4: But anyway, to get to the main point.

42
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,919
Speaker 1: Once we were called into an all staff meeting for

43
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,640
Speaker 1: the researchers at the Kennedy School in the Belfer Center

44
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 1: and we were simply instructed that if any journalists come

45
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,600
Speaker 1: to talk to us about oil companies funding the research

46
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,160
Speaker 1: done there, just don't talk to them. You know, are

47
00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 1: told that we don't want activists, We don't want journalists

48
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,440
Speaker 1: digging around and finding out that the programs are being

49
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,079
Speaker 1: funded by oil companies. I mean, when I heard this,

50
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: you know, I was pretty surprised that level of secrecy

51
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 1: was being pursued.

52
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 5: And this is Harvard that he's talking about, like the

53
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,800
Speaker 5: university where Jeffrey Sopron and Naomi Erescus work and there

54
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,639
Speaker 5: are two of the foremost scholars of how like fossil

55
00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,360
Speaker 5: fuel propaganda even works.

56
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 6: Just incredible.

57
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 5: And it's funny because there are so many other schools

58
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 5: that take corporate funding, but then they like proudly name

59
00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 5: buildings or even entire departments after them. But here's Harvard

60
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 5: hiding this influence. Our university is generally pretty transparent about

61
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 5: where their research funding comes from.

62
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like traditionally been kind of an ethical policy

63
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 3: at universities, although I do think that it's becoming more

64
00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 3: common to hide that funding or just say anonymous donors

65
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,400
Speaker 3: or things like that. But at the time that this

66
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 3: was happening at Harvard. This is like twenty fifteen. Ben

67
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 3: found it to be very, very strange.

68
00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 1: We always advertised and disclosed who was funding our research,

69
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,280
Speaker 1: and we're generally proud of it, but we definitely didn't

70
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 1: keep it a secret, and so encountering this secrecy in

71
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,839
Speaker 1: the public policy space, I just thought that was so strange.

72
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 1: And of course for me, when they said don't talk

73
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,600
Speaker 1: about this thing, I wanted to talk about it more.

74
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,200
Speaker 1: My ears perked up and I was like, probably dozing

75
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,560
Speaker 1: off in the back or something, and I popped up

76
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:41,120
Speaker 1: ort and.

77
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, that's something interesting's going on.

78
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 1: But I think it speaks to the broader issue, which is,

79
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 1: to what degree has the fossil fuel industry shaped very

80
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,159
Speaker 1: public policy responses and paradigms and ways of thinking about

81
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,920
Speaker 1: climate change as a problem. How has the industry shaped

82
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,279
Speaker 1: those things at the basic level, at the level of

83
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,280
Speaker 1: students learning about them in universities.

84
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,159
Speaker 5: Yes, Ben, that's exactly what this whole series is about,

85
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,039
Speaker 5: how they've shaped thinking about not only like the problem,

86
00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,479
Speaker 5: but also the possible solutions. Welcome to the final episode

87
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 5: in the ABC's of Big Oil from Earth and Drilled.

88
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 6: I'm Darna Noir.

89
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,760
Speaker 2: And I'm Amy Westervelt. Today. We're going to college.

90
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:34,560
Speaker 7: Stay with us.

91
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,480
Speaker 8: She's got a man, She's promised to love, honor.

92
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,159
Speaker 9: And keep house for the right way.

93
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:46,960
Speaker 8: That mean I never helped help with the dishes.

94
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,840
Speaker 9: Never bell does my dishes? Look that makes us to

95
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 9: shine without washing your white.

96
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:05,840
Speaker 10: I wish I had a cat castle in the sky,

97
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:15,600
Speaker 10: away up high where bluebirds like to fly of cozy

98
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 10: little castle with a hundred rooms or more. Dear someday,

99
00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 10: what stars for windows, clothes for rugs, or rainbow for

100
00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 10: a dawn? I wish I just wish I had a

101
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 10: decent kitchen. Hey, we're so sad, and this is the

102
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,360
Speaker 10: first time I've noticed it.

103
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 2: Nothing really not very convincing, Jane girls.

104
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:56,400
Speaker 10: Whatever it is, I've got just.

105
00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,200
Speaker 7: A cure for it.

106
00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,520
Speaker 3: There's a sensational sail going on watching and.

107
00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,400
Speaker 2: You, ha would be the ideal tonic for you.

108
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,160
Speaker 10: I'm going down this say afternoon for smalls free.

109
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 2: How about coming with him?

110
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,239
Speaker 5: A lot of ads and TV and movies and stuff

111
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,440
Speaker 5: from the fifties kind of paint this picture of post

112
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 5: World War two Americans being just like so relieved that

113
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 5: the war was over that they embraced consumerism wholeheartedly, and

114
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 5: all of that also gets wrapped up in like patriotism

115
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 5: and nationalism too. But Amy, it seems like you actually

116
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 5: found something recently that revealed what was kind of going

117
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 5: on under all that, right.

118
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 3: Yes, I found this archive in Wisconsin that held all

119
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 3: of the old papers of one of Standard Oil's early

120
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 3: pr guys.

121
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 2: His name was Earl Newsom.

122
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 3: He worked for Standard Oil of New Jersey, which is

123
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 3: now Exon Mobil from the late nineteen thirties to the

124
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 3: late nineteen sixties. Either he or someone in his family

125
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 3: donated like every single file from his business to the

126
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 3: Wisconsin Historical Society archive, and there were dozens and dozens

127
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 3: of boxes from his years at Standard. Okay, I've got

128
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:19,200
Speaker 3: a folder marked confidential here, so that's interesting. See what's tony.

129
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 8: Premise?

130
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 3: Hmm, Okay, this is some kind of strategy. It's nineteen

131
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 3: forty four. Wow, Okay, holy shit. At the top, there's

132
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,320
Speaker 3: typed at the top of this page, says the premise,

133
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,840
Speaker 3: and then it goes next to crushing the axis and

134
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,200
Speaker 3: avoiding runaway inflation while we're doing it. The most important

135
00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 3: problem confronting us is to keep the American people convinced

136
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,959
Speaker 3: of the intrinsic social and economic worth of the free

137
00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:04,600
Speaker 3: enterprise system and of its periority over statism, so that

138
00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,559
Speaker 3: the people will be determined to remove unnecessary governmental controls

139
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:17,640
Speaker 3: and re establish competitive, democratic, free enterprise capitalism when the

140
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:26,200
Speaker 3: war is won. I found this plan from nineteen forty four,

141
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,440
Speaker 3: so the year that World War Two was ending. This

142
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 3: plan goes on to lay out how various companies and

143
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 3: industries can coordinate their pro free enterprise campaigns without seeming

144
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 3: like they're coordinating, and of course without using the words

145
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,920
Speaker 3: free enterprise. There's even a whole bit about how they're

146
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,040
Speaker 3: not going to use the US Chamber of Commerce or

147
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 3: the National Association of Manufacturers because you know, everyone knows

148
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,680
Speaker 3: they're just shills for business.

149
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,760
Speaker 5: And again, this is around nineteen forty four, so let

150
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 5: me just make sure I've got this straight. Americans got

151
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,920
Speaker 5: too used to the idea that the government could actually

152
00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,280
Speaker 5: maybe you know, do a pretty good job of taking

153
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 5: care of them and making society work. And that was

154
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 5: bad for business because if people started thinking that the

155
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 5: state should be involved in their lives, then that means oh,

156
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 5: no regulation and maybe even a slippery slope to communism.

157
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 3: Exactly, and The reason this really blew my mind is

158
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,400
Speaker 3: that I happened to read this nineteen forty four strategy

159
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 3: document the same day that I read all the stuff

160
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,080
Speaker 3: from Frank Abrams on why standards should invest in universities.

161
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,920
Speaker 2: So you might remember that name from the first episode

162
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:32,559
Speaker 2: of this series.

163
00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 3: Abrams was a VP at Standard Oil of New Jersey

164
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,960
Speaker 3: during this same time period, and by the early fifties

165
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 3: he was leading the company's university investments and encouraging other

166
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 3: companies and industries to do the same, precisely to push

167
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,840
Speaker 3: this exact idea that government intervention is bad, that free

168
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 3: enterprise is what keeps America free. He was also really

169
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,720
Speaker 3: big on the idea that companies needed to support private

170
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,880
Speaker 3: universities or else the only ones left would be government funded.

171
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 6: Oh no, communist universities.

172
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 5: But yeah, it totally makes sense that they'd be donating

173
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,000
Speaker 5: to more private universities, although just to be clear, corporations

174
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,600
Speaker 5: definitely donate massive amounts of money to public universities too.

175
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,440
Speaker 5: A lot of what this points to is that it

176
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 5: really wasn't so much that companies were actually concerned about

177
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 5: American people becoming too an independent. It's not about the

178
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 5: independence of American people. That's not what scares them. It's

179
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 5: really that they wanted the American public to be dependent, sure,

180
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 5: but on them, not on the government.

181
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

182
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 3: So today American companies provide a little over thirteen percent

183
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 3: of the funding for universities, which is a pretty large

184
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,079
Speaker 3: percentage of the money that you know is funding all

185
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,160
Speaker 3: kinds of research in the country. Another thirteen and a

186
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 3: half percent comes from this nebulous other organizations category, which

187
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 3: is mostly what are called donor advised funds. And to

188
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,720
Speaker 3: give you some indication of what those generally are, donors

189
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 3: trust the pot of money that the Kochs use to

190
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,560
Speaker 3: fund all kinds of stuff, from right wing legislation firm

191
00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,679
Speaker 3: ALEC to news networks that publish free market propaganda to

192
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 3: climate denying university centers. It's a donor advice fund. So

193
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,679
Speaker 3: this means that you know, there's a fair bit of

194
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,079
Speaker 3: you know, kind of hidden corporate money also going into universities.

195
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,320
Speaker 3: The rest is pretty evenly split between foundations and high

196
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,360
Speaker 3: net worth individuals. You know, there's like this whole idea

197
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,880
Speaker 3: right now of like the liberal elite trope of universities.

198
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,400
Speaker 3: But all this talk of conservative right wing like pro

199
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 3: business ideas being muzzled kind of seems like totally misguided.

200
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,760
Speaker 3: I mean, it sure seems like the conservative agenda at

201
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,160
Speaker 3: school is alive and a well and flush with cash too. Yeah,

202
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,200
Speaker 3: that's right, and that's really important because when we looked

203
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,080
Speaker 3: into what oil companies and the people who love them

204
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,600
Speaker 3: were funding at universities, especially when we looked outside of

205
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 3: the scientific sphere, a lot of it.

206
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 2: A lot was economics.

207
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,560
Speaker 3: So for example, there's this organization called the National Bureau

208
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 3: of Economic Research, which you know, sounds like a totally

209
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 3: neutral government agency, right, totally.

210
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:21,400
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think for years I thought that it was

211
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,679
Speaker 5: like a really boring a federal agency, but it's not.

212
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:25,200
Speaker 6: It's not.

213
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,960
Speaker 5: It's a private, nonprofit research organization.

214
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 3: That's right, And it claims to be non partisan, and

215
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,880
Speaker 3: it has all of these statements on its website about

216
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,839
Speaker 3: how it avoids conflict of interest and things like that.

217
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:43,480
Speaker 3: But its funders do include x on Mobile and the

218
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 3: Bradley Foundation, which actually spends more than the entire Coke network,

219
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,320
Speaker 3: pushing a very conservative agenda that also includes claim and denial.

220
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you can see it everywhere.

221
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,679
Speaker 5: Like one of the top economists Mit is the president

222
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,839
Speaker 5: of the National Bureau of Economic Research, the president their

223
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 5: Law and economics guy runs the Center for Law, Economics

224
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,000
Speaker 5: and Business at Harvard too, and that center was actually

225
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 5: created with funding from John lm Olan and the Oln Foundation,

226
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 5: which has a long history of funding what Source Watch calls,

227
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,240
Speaker 5: quote a chain of anti environmental, pro business legal advocacy

228
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 5: organizations unquote.

229
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:28,960
Speaker 6: And where did John Owen.

230
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,760
Speaker 5: Make his money, Well, guns and chemicals, naturally.

231
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And a big part of what he did with

232
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,080
Speaker 3: all that money was fund the creation of these centers.

233
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 2: I mean dozens of them.

234
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,520
Speaker 3: John m Ollen Lawn Economic Centers or centers named something

235
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 3: similar to that, are at universities all over the country,

236
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 3: most of the top universities.

237
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 2: So in addition to the one at.

238
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,760
Speaker 3: Harvard, there's one at Stanford, UCLA, Yale, University of Virginia.

239
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 3: I know I'm missing several in that list. Olan was

240
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,320
Speaker 3: a big opponent of what's called the law and economics movement,

241
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,960
Speaker 3: which again sounds like something fairly innocuous, you know, but

242
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 3: it's this movement that arose amidst that whole post World

243
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 3: War two concern that Americans would turn on free enterprise.

244
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 3: So the law and economics folks advocated for analyzing any

245
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 3: legislation or legal action or even legal institutions through an

246
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 3: economic lens, so really evaluating the value of any kind

247
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 3: of policy or law issue via its economic impact.

248
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, and John em Ollen came across this whole sort

249
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 5: of framework in the seventies and obviously it's like a

250
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 5: perfect fit for him.

251
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 6: He loves it.

252
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 5: He throws a ton of money at it, and he

253
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 5: creates these centers that really, like most universities, start looking

254
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 5: and you start finding them everywhere, and that really accelerates

255
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,720
Speaker 5: this whole movement, this whole you know, law and economics movement,

256
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,680
Speaker 5: and that lays the ground work for DA DA DA

257
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 5: the Federalist Society, which of course is the organization that's

258
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 5: been working to get more conservative judges appointed in courts

259
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 5: throughout the country.

260
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:12,600
Speaker 11: Right.

261
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,200
Speaker 3: And we're talking about all of this not just because

262
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,920
Speaker 3: it's like weird and interesting, but also because it dovetails

263
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 3: with some new research that ben Fronta has done looking

264
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 3: at fossil fuel involvement in economics research, and particularly in

265
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 3: economics research that influences policy discussions.

266
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 1: The question that's obvious that we should ask is what

267
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,560
Speaker 1: effect has that had what has been the influence of

268
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 1: decades of funding from these special interests. Latest research is

269
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,040
Speaker 1: one example, some new research that will be out soon,

270
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 1: and by the time this airs, it might already be out.

271
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 4: It tracks the.

272
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,440
Speaker 1: Activity of a group of economic consultants who were hired

273
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 1: by the petroleum industry for decades to produce analyzes that

274
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 1: were then used by the companies and by others opposing

275
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: restrictions on fossil fuels to tell the public that it

276
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 1: would just be way too expensive to act on climate,

277
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,639
Speaker 1: and that in any case, climate was not going to

278
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,879
Speaker 1: be a big deal, so the best thing to do

279
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,640
Speaker 1: is just do nothing. And this was the economic ammunition

280
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 1: that the industry used alongside their scientific mergence of doubt.

281
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 5: This point that Ben is making here is really really important.

282
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,159
Speaker 5: In the last decade or so, I think there's been

283
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 5: this increasing realization amongst many people who think about climate

284
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 5: change that climate inaction is not really caused by a

285
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 5: lack of scientific evidence, or even really by a lack

286
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 5: of understanding. I think mostly now we're all kind of

287
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,119
Speaker 5: thinking of it as an issue of political will, and

288
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,719
Speaker 5: this kind of stuff kind of plays directly into that

289
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,440
Speaker 5: and shows you where that lack of political will comes

290
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 5: from Yeah.

291
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 2: That's right.

292
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 3: It reminds me of this thing that climate scientists Ken

293
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 3: Caldera said to me a couple years back.

294
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,919
Speaker 9: You know, back in the eighties, we believe the information

295
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,640
Speaker 9: deficit model of social change and that if we could

296
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,760
Speaker 9: only get the information to policy makers that they would

297
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 9: do the right thing.

298
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,199
Speaker 12: And now we see in the age of Trump that

299
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,160
Speaker 12: it's you know, really, it's not about information deficit. It's

300
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,199
Speaker 12: about power relations and people wanting to keep economic and

301
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 12: political power, so that just telling people some more climate

302
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 12: science isn't going to help anything. And surprise, surprise, in

303
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,639
Speaker 12: this country, especially after citizens United and all of that

304
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:51,680
Speaker 12: money and power, entrenched power has disproportionate political influence. You know,

305
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:57,880
Speaker 12: I don't understand how social change happens when it challenges

306
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 12: the interests of a well entrenched and powerful minority.

307
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 13: And I mean, it seems to me that that's the

308
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 13: central question of how that happens. And it's not climate science,

309
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 13: it's political strategy. I have no idea what the right

310
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 13: answer is, but I'd like to know.

311
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 5: Right and if that wealthy and powerful minority is also

312
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 5: funding a bunch of economics and law and public policy programs,

313
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,800
Speaker 5: for instance, all of those ideas get even more entrenched.

314
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 5: It's like this self repetuating loop where you have the

315
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 5: research that keeps justifying the policy, and the companies and

316
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 5: the billionaires and the think tanks keep funding the research,

317
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 5: and that keeps going back into the policy.

318
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 2: Yes, totally.

319
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 3: And I should note here that Caldera himself might be

320
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 3: getting a bird's eye view of.

321
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 2: That, because he's.

322
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 3: Kind of like Bill Gates's guy on climate research at

323
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 3: the moment. But I want to be clear here that

324
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 3: a lot of researchers who get funding one way or

325
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 3: another from fossil fuel companies or from people or organizations

326
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 3: that are friendly to the industry are not necessarily directly compromised.

327
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 3: It doesn't look like, you know, some excellent executive like

328
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,680
Speaker 3: showing up in their lab and telling them what to research.

329
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 3: I understandably get a little defensive about this, and we're

330
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 3: not trying to say that that anyone at any of

331
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 3: these many many universities is, you know, ethically compromised in

332
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 3: some kind of personal way.

333
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 2: We're talking about a systemic issue here.

334
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 3: Not any one institution or academic And then you know

335
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 3: the other problem is that there's not really like a

336
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 3: bunch of funding waiting around if all of the fossil

337
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 3: fuel or other industry funding goes away.

338
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly where where are you going to get the

339
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 5: rest of that funding if it goes away? What's there

340
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 5: to follow the gap? Most academic researchers aren't like these

341
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 5: few economists that ben Fronta have found. But there's some

342
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 5: who are really pretty specifically and strategically at carrying water

343
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 5: for the industry. Let's hear a little bit more of

344
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 5: that story.

345
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: One thing I do in my historical research is I'll

346
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: download like the entire online newspaper record. For example, I

347
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: studied the American Petroleum Institute, and so I'll download every

348
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 1: newspaper article on an online database with the words American

349
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 1: Patrolling Institute and global warming or climate change in their record.

350
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 1: You know, that might be a few thousand articles, and

351
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 1: I'll sort them in chronological order, and I'll read all

352
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: of them just to get the story, just to see

353
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: what are their phases of communication, you know, what are

354
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 1: the battles they're fighting at different times. And I was

355
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: doing that over you know, it takes many days to

356
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: read that much material, but I was doing that, and

357
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: I noticed that huh, like these there are these economists

358
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 1: that keep coming up again and again, and I was like,

359
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: that's interesting. And this is you know, this was stuff

360
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: from like the early to mid nineteen nineties, so this

361
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: is a while ago. I thought, Oh, I'm sure they're

362
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: not doing stuff anymore. Then at the same time I

363
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: was doing this research, President Trump announced that the US

364
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: was going to pull out of the Paris Agreement, and

365
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 1: in his speech he said that the Paris Agreement was

366
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 1: going to cost an American family, you know, four thousand

367
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: dollars per year or something like that. You know, it's

368
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: going to cost a lot of money. And I thought,

369
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: this doesn't really make sense because those parts of the

370
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: Paris Agreement are not legally binding to begin with. I thought,

371
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 1: who are the economists that are saying this, Where's this

372
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: analysis coming from to give President Trump the talking points,

373
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: you know, to say that in a speech. And I

374
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: looked up the economic analysis that that President Trump used

375
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: and it was the same people.

376
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 4: It was the same economists.

377
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: That I had that I had noticed we're working on

378
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 1: these things in like the mid nineties, giving the same

379
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: talking points against the Kyoto Protocol in nineteen ninety seven.

380
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 2: Oh, my God, this like history on repeat thing just

381
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 2: kills me.

382
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 3: The fact that it's the literal same economists giving the

383
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 3: exact same talking points to another president pulling out of

384
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 3: another international climate treaty twenty years later.

385
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: I mean by like twenty ten or so, they'd already

386
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: they've been at this for twenty years. And you know,

387
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: Senators were saying, look, it's like, we don't even need

388
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: to study because we know that they've.

389
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 4: Already been saying this for twenty years.

390
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: And in a way, the scientific merchants of doubt ultimately failed.

391
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: I guess their power waned, but the economics part, their

392
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 1: power did not really wane in the same way. And

393
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: you know, the implications are larger as well, because I

394
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 1: looked at this economic consulting firm largely because I just

395
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: stumbled upon their activities.

396
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 4: But they were not alone.

397
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: You know, there were other consulting firms doing very similar work.

398
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: But also their work is not that different from the

399
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: work done at MIT, at the Joint program where they

400
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: do economic modeling there. That program is funded by the

401
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: oil industry. Not only the oil industry, but they do

402
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: receive funding from the oil industry.

403
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 5: There's this other Cross University group that's funded by fossil

404
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 5: fuel interests.

405
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: That Ben mentioned to these groups participated in something called

406
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: the Energy Modeling Forum at Stanford University, which brought together

407
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: lots of people, and that that group is funded almost

408
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: entirely by fossil fuel interests.

409
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:27,239
Speaker 4: You know.

410
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: So there's the consulting part, then there's the academic environmental

411
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: economics part, and the industry is involved with both in

412
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: terms of their funding. And you know, I think at

413
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: the end of the day, the question is where does

414
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: this leave us?

415
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 4: Like is the analysis wrong? First of all?

416
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: Is a good question to ask, you know, I mean, okay,

417
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 1: what if it's actually right?

418
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 13: Now?

419
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: One of the nice things about this study was that

420
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: one of these economists was willing to talk to me

421
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: and honestly share his perspective and experiences, and we talked

422
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: about the limitations.

423
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 4: Of their models, you know.

424
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: And their models were essentially based on assumptions that have

425
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: become mainstream in American economics, like the economy performs optimally

426
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: without intervention and so on. These are unscientific concepts that

427
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: because they can't be tested, of course, but it's just

428
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: taken as an article of faith that if somebody has

429
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: to do something that they're not already doing it must

430
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: be suboptimal. It's a circular reasoning type of logic. Then

431
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: there are assumptions built into the model about how expensive

432
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: clean energy is going to be, and it's assumed to

433
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: be expensive like forever, like really expensive and things like that.

434
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: So the way the model itself is constructed, it's not

435
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: really like reliable in terms of what is this actually

436
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: going to cost? So that part's not really quantitatively reliable.

437
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: Then you have the other side, which is the benefit side,

438
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: which is not even being addressed, right, So it's impossible

439
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: to even make it a comparison in terms of like

440
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,239
Speaker 1: is this policy worth that are not And so at

441
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's a fraudulent economic product,

442
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: right economist saying we did the analysis and it's too expensive,

443
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: you know, now, even by their own admission, that's not true.

444
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: So and this has been going on for decades, you know.

445
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: So now the question is what do we do about this?

446
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: This is kind of the question across the board.

447
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: Really. We've laid out in these four episodes how much

448
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: the industry invests in schools, from elementary schools on through universities.

449
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: But it's important to note that.

450
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: Though the oil industry has different strategies for getting into

451
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: each level of education, it's not like any of this

452
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 3: stuff is unrelated.

453
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 6: Yeah.

454
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 9: Yeah.

455
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: And also, you know, even though the oil industry is

456
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 5: sort of pushing this idea that the reign of the

457
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 5: free market is what we need and you know, pushing

458
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 5: the virtues of limiting governance, the public sector is actually

459
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 5: helping them with this whole scheme. Like remember think back

460
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 5: to episode one when Carol Muffett from the Center for

461
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 5: International Environmental Law explain to us how the government actually

462
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 5: had hundreds of contracts out for energy industry funded school

463
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 5: and education projects. This is something that that slide show

464
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 5: that he walked us through in episode one also kind

465
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 5: of got into.

466
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 9: I think it's really.

467
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 8: Important to recognize that this presentation was presented to the

468
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 8: Society of Petroleum Engineers in the early two thousands, and

469
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 8: at the moment that he's presenting to SDE, what he's

470
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 8: acknowledging here is that between DOE and IOGCC, which is

471
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 8: the independent oily gas companies, there.

472
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 11: Were more than three hundred active school outreach programs that

473
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 11: the Energy Literacy Project had documented, along with another forty

474
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 11: seven programs from the National Mining Association.

475
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 5: So, speaking of that Energy Literacy Project slide show, Amy,

476
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 5: we were actually able to have a pretty special guest

477
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 5: on the podcast too, aren't we.

478
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, a huge get. We got to

479
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 3: speak with John Tobin of the Energy Literacy Project.

480
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 6: He's still around who made the sledge show.

481
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: That's right.

482
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 3: He made that slideshow back in the early two thousands.

483
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: He's a long time well known industry consultant, and he

484
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: explained to us that he's working on a new initiative

485
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: to create university curricula with funding from the oil and

486
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 3: gas industry and an emphasis on helping to sort of

487
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: train university students to deal with the big problems facing

488
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: the energy industry.

489
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 14: The emphasis on this is not just the technological or

490
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 14: narrow expertise that the different universities have in their various classes,

491
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 14: but putting it together in terms of something that can

492
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 14: actually turn into a real program, and that brings some

493
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 14: of the business, the economics, the political science, the social

494
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 14: sciences into the picture. Before whatever they're going to present.

495
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 14: Their solution can mean anything the decision maker wants to know.

496
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 14: You know, how is this going to work? Can I

497
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 14: justify this to my shareholders or my stakeholders or whatever,

498
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 14: what's at stake here? How much if you'll excuse my French,

499
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 14: is my butt exposed on this deal because it's personal.

500
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 14: One of the things that when I present in these

501
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 14: sort of sessions talking about the business decision process, try

502
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 14: to make sure that everybody understands that whatever you're going

503
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 14: to be forecasting here is wrong. You just hope it's

504
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 14: within the range of what you're talking about of what

505
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 14: actually happened. And if there's a difference between admitting to

506
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 14: the uncertainty in if you had to be considering the

507
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 14: price of oil and risk is personal. It's what the

508
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 14: decision maker looks at that uncertainty is that is this

509
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 14: a risk I can take? So it's kind of a

510
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 14: capstone or wrapping these things together in terms of how

511
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 14: to apply if you were a petroll an engineer was

512
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 14: looking at this sort of thing, how do you apply

513
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 14: that so that somebody can make is so well recent

514
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 14: decision about whether to go ahead with the project.

515
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 5: And Tobin said that, you know, working on this new

516
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: natural resources education program, he's finding opportunities for grant funding

517
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 5: from the public sector or from the government to get

518
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 5: this project off the ground, but they come with some stipulations,

519
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 5: including needing to partner with higher education institutions, So that

520
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 5: means that he'd need to actually collaborate with colleges and

521
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 5: universities on his energy industry funded project in order to

522
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 5: be eligible for federal money.

523
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 14: We dug into the financing of such things, the size

524
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 14: of the budget that we would look for. The most

525
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 14: direct area was we found was the US Department of Education.

526
00:30:54,120 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 14: All of their grants require an association or partnership with

527
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 14: in the institution of higher learning.

528
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 11: Right.

529
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 14: I think it's because the department they've had wants to

530
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 14: make sure that they are at least indirectly funding colleges.

531
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow.

532
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: So, I mean at this point, what we've found over

533
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: the course of kind of researching this series is that

534
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 3: schools across the board are pretty dependent on either you know,

535
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: free materials from industry sources or, in the case of universities,

536
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: on funding from corporations.

537
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: So it kind of makes you wonder, is it even possible.

538
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: At this point to remove this influence without losing the

539
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: financial support for universities Exactly.

540
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 5: It's a really tough problem to solve, how you know,

541
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 5: keep education stable without all of that money. But there

542
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 5: are definitely people working on creating real clouate education and

543
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 5: kicking the fossil fuel industry out of schools, and we're

544
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 5: going to bring you all of those silver linings in

545
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 5: an extra bonus EPISOD, so.

546
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 6: Come back for that.

547
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: Drilled is an original production of the Critical Frequency podcast Network.

548
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: This series is a collaboration with earther, Gizmoto's climate and

549
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: justice site. My co host and co reporter for the

550
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: series is Darna Noir. Our editors are Julia Richie for

551
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: Drilled and Brian Kahn for Earther. Our producer is Juliana Bradley.

552
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 3: Mixing and mastering by Peter Duff. Our factchecker is Trevor Gowan.

553
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: Music is by Martin Wissenberg.

554
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: Our artwork was created.

555
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: By Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton

556
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: of the First Amendment Project. You can find corresponding stories, videos,

557
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: and documents for this series on earther dot com. Thanks

558
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: for listening and we'll see you next time.

559
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 7: The att