Speaker 1: Is it that hit Netflix TV show or that global
Speaker 1: pandemic that's linked to a live animal market. Either way,
Speaker 1: wildlife trafficking is somehow a really big deal right now.
Speaker 1: Today on Parts for Rebellion, we look at what Congress
Speaker 1: is going to do about this suddenly hot issue. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Parts per Billion, the environmental podcast from
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. So we all
Speaker 1: know that the coronavirus pandemic is hey big deal that's
Speaker 1: putting it mildly, and scientists believe that the pandemic started
Speaker 1: from a so called wet market in China where live
Speaker 1: animals are sold. So dealing with wildlife trafficking is a
Speaker 1: pretty big priority for a lot of people. Additionally, a
Speaker 1: lot of people have been watching a show on Netflix
Speaker 1: about wildlife trafficking called Tiger King. I certainly have, and
Speaker 1: it is created a lot of momentum for this issue.
Speaker 1: Here to talk with us about what Congress might do
Speaker 1: as a result of all this momentum is Dean Scott.
Speaker 1: Dean you and reporter Stephen Lee wrote a story about
Speaker 1: what's happening on Capitol Hill. And one of the things
Speaker 1: I got from your story is that the sale of
Speaker 1: live animals in the US is way way less regulated
Speaker 1: than I thought it would be. Can you describe the
Speaker 1: regulatory scheme for this and just how many different groups
Speaker 1: and entities are responsible for regulating wildlife trafficking here in
Speaker 1: the States. Well, there's basically a tremendous I would call
Speaker 1: it a sort of byzantine arrangement here between federal regulators,
Speaker 1: local and state regulators when it comes to the sale
Speaker 1: of a couple different things exotic pets in one bucket,
Speaker 1: and then you have illicit or even illegal wildlife trafficking,
Speaker 1: which the Fish and Wildlife Service working with the State
Speaker 1: Department and even internationally with INTERPOL, the international organization that
Speaker 1: sort of looks at a lot of illegal international efforts.
Speaker 1: And then when it comes to your markets, the markets
Speaker 1: that you might see in some urban centers in the
Speaker 1: US that mix let's say, the sale of live poultry
Speaker 1: that might have seafood or live lobsters, crustaceans, that tends
Speaker 1: to be in either the regulatory area of the state
Speaker 1: or even the local health department. So we even found
Speaker 1: that within the USDA, there's actually different sections of the
Speaker 1: USDA that regulate things that go to market. For example,
Speaker 1: one group at USDA regulates the welfare of animals that
Speaker 1: are sold and many of them later butchered. And then
Speaker 1: a different part of USDA, we sort of call it
Speaker 1: the cutlet regulators. They come in and regulate, you know,
Speaker 1: the things that come out of the meat factory. So
Speaker 1: what we found is that basically there's already a complication
Speaker 1: between the intersection between illicit wildlife trafficking and the so
Speaker 1: called web markets, and then there's further complication between all
Speaker 1: of the groups within the US that tried to regulate
Speaker 1: the different components of those Yeah, I mean from your story,
Speaker 1: the story that you and Stephen wrote, I got the
Speaker 1: sense that it's just sort of almost a coincidence that
Speaker 1: this virus started in China at this web market, that
Speaker 1: you know, the regulations in the US are pretty lax,
Speaker 1: and that you know, it could have easily started here
Speaker 1: or elsewhere. I mean, is that what are some of
Speaker 1: the concerns that lawmakers that you talked to were expressing
Speaker 1: about the sale of wildlife here in the US. Well,
Speaker 1: the conditions of the markets in China, and they're not
Speaker 1: just in China. Some of the pandemics that we've been
Speaker 1: focusing on in the last twenty years. Have it originated there?
Speaker 1: And these concerns came up earlier with the SARS virus.
Speaker 1: And when you think about it's not so much the
Speaker 1: seafood market. We don't really consider our markets here in
Speaker 1: the US wet markets, but you know a market with
Speaker 1: fish on ice that you might see those aren't as
Speaker 1: much of a concern in the sense that or as
Speaker 1: long as they don't mix. The sale of mammals, the
Speaker 1: sale of bears, the sale of exotic pets, many of
Speaker 1: many of these can be endangered. And in the US
Speaker 1: you might think, well, is that really a concern. I mean,
Speaker 1: in the US we don't see a lot of this
Speaker 1: trafficking on the streets or in markets. That may be
Speaker 1: true to some extent, but you do see the US
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest traffickers of illicit wildlife in
Speaker 1: the world. And that's why we have pretty big, big
Speaker 1: sections of not just Fish and Wildlife Service, but enforcement
Speaker 1: arms of fish, Wildlife Service and State Department and these
Speaker 1: other groups working on those issues. And those are the
Speaker 1: kinds of things where, for example, you still see to
Speaker 1: this day the sale of rhino materials ivory. You don't
Speaker 1: have to go that far in some urban centers in
Speaker 1: the US to find works of art quote unquote that
Speaker 1: are made from that material. Well, that kind of leads
Speaker 1: me perfectly into the next question I wanted to ask you,
Speaker 1: which is that what is Congress doing about this? I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the things I got from your story is
Speaker 1: that a lot of key lawmakers who sit on very
Speaker 1: important committees, this is on their radar and they're very
Speaker 1: concerned about it. But it sounds like the main thing
Speaker 1: that's going to come from this is that the Fish
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service is going to get more money. Their
Speaker 1: budget is going to be increased. Is that the sense
Speaker 1: that you get, And if so, by how much more
Speaker 1: money are they going to get? That's right? I think
Speaker 1: I think you're going to see a lot more interested
Speaker 1: in this. What you see with these big global events,
Speaker 1: or at least events that really sort of rock the
Speaker 1: economy or impact health and safety, is you see congressional
Speaker 1: tension spike. And I think with any any issue, and
Speaker 1: this is not to be cynical, but any issue that's
Speaker 1: as large as this with the pandemic, you're going to
Speaker 1: see a lot of parts moving on Capitol Hill to say, look,
Speaker 1: we have a piece of the response to this pandemic.
Speaker 1: What are we doing about it? And is this a
Speaker 1: chance to raise the profile of our issue. I think
Speaker 1: if you can make a good case that that you
Speaker 1: can make a good case that wildlife trafficking is a
Speaker 1: concern that we all have and it has to be
Speaker 1: part of a pandemic response, you can make a pretty
Speaker 1: good argument that that funding has to be increased. And
Speaker 1: I'd also say that you have have a lot of
Speaker 1: folks in the conservation arena and a lot of the
Speaker 1: congressional representatives who basically have been pushing for this for
Speaker 1: a long time, working with a number of interesting sort
Speaker 1: of Republican voices Lindsey Graham, but also other Republicans who
Speaker 1: have been reliable allies on conservation. But they also have
Speaker 1: a sort of second interest, which is they do see
Speaker 1: this as an opportunity to raise some of the issues
Speaker 1: that have been going on with China and our relationship
Speaker 1: with China. Wow, that actually, that is really strange. People
Speaker 1: who both want to be conservationists and also tough on China,
Speaker 1: and I guess they're teaming up. So we're going to
Speaker 1: take a quick break now. But when we come back.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about, of course, Tiger King. We
Speaker 1: can't avoid it, but stay with us. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: So we're back, and we're talking with Dean Scott about
Speaker 1: what is going to be happening on Capitol Hill with
Speaker 1: wildlife trafficking in the wake of the virus and in
Speaker 1: the wake of Tiger King. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1: You know, the show is a big hit. I watched it.
Speaker 1: I can't say I loved watching it. I think I
Speaker 1: love to hate to watch it, but it's a big
Speaker 1: de people. A lot of people are talking about this,
Speaker 1: and this is the kind of thing that can really
Speaker 1: create momentum on Capitol Hill. You know, you were talking
Speaker 1: about agencies getting more money in their budgets, but do
Speaker 1: you think we'll see any standalone bills policy changes as
Speaker 1: a result of the pandemic or the attention around this
Speaker 1: TV show. Yeah, it's interesting, I find you know, the
Speaker 1: interesting thing about this show is number one, it came
Speaker 1: at a time to you know, focusing on this issue
Speaker 1: of keeping big cats, and I think kind of exposed
Speaker 1: Whether you think that's interesting and fun or whether you
Speaker 1: think this raises really big concerns about about private citizens
Speaker 1: basically collecting big cats. And I think what's interesting is
Speaker 1: the timing of the release of that program on Netflix
Speaker 1: basically coinciding, not purposefully, but it just coincidentally happened to
Speaker 1: coincide with what we're seeing with this pandemic. What I
Speaker 1: think is unclear is whether the result of the show,
Speaker 1: the kinds of concerns that it prompts, are necessarily going
Speaker 1: to be pushing for Congress or for states to do
Speaker 1: something about it. I think there's a lot of when
Speaker 1: I talk to people who have watched the show. When
Speaker 1: I watched the show, when you know, when I sort
Speaker 1: of look at the reaction it's having in terms of
Speaker 1: its audience, some people think it's perfectly fine to to
Speaker 1: to be able to have it's sort of an issue
Speaker 1: of conservative versus liberal government. Yeah, well, I mean, and
Speaker 1: even one of one of the scenes in the show
Speaker 1: itself was that some of the characters who are advocating
Speaker 1: for tiger breeding and you know who keep tigers, were
Speaker 1: lobbying on Capitola Hill. They held an event with Representative
Speaker 1: Don Young and Avid a sportsman himself. So this is,
Speaker 1: you know, an issue that has already been on Capitol Hill,
Speaker 1: even before the show came out. Yeah, and there's a
Speaker 1: federal bill that came out of that, the Big Cat
Speaker 1: Public Safety Act, to stop they call it cub petting,
Speaker 1: but essentially the development of tiger cubs into sort of pets,
Speaker 1: and then that drives a certain amount of breeding and ownership.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, you get pets in backyards.
Speaker 1: And I do think it's an issue that we're going
Speaker 1: to hear about on Capitol Hill. Part of this, you know,
Speaker 1: as always, you know how many times when we're having
Speaker 1: a conversation about this, does it not come back to
Speaker 1: an election? And we have a big one coming up
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, and so we're going to have You know,
Speaker 1: this is not beyond the realm of possibility to see
Speaker 1: the Senate flip. I could see that I could see
Speaker 1: issues like this coming to the fore, and you know,
Speaker 1: when you have a huge number of lawmakers. There were
Speaker 1: hundreds of lawmakers on this letter, senators and members of
Speaker 1: the House basically urging the World Health Organization and other
Speaker 1: international groups to really put pressure on China to eliminate
Speaker 1: these wet markets. The wildlife component, the illicit trafficking of
Speaker 1: wildlife and the sale of those being part of that push.
Speaker 1: I think that's not going away. I guess I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought about that until you brought it up. But you're
Speaker 1: totally right that it's an election year. You have a
Speaker 1: conservation angle and you have a tough on China angle.
Speaker 1: It just seems like the political incentives are all pushing
Speaker 1: in one direction for both parties. I mean, it's that
Speaker 1: makes me think that there really is going to be
Speaker 1: a lot of action on this sometime this year. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And although we have seen this issue before with wet
Speaker 1: markets and with pandemics, but nothing those pandemics pale in comparison.
Speaker 1: Something is going to have to be done about that
Speaker 1: intersection in those markets, this trade of mammals and and
Speaker 1: illicit wildlife being slaughtered or sold. I think we're going
Speaker 1: to see a lot of pressure here too in the US.
Speaker 1: You know, the US, it does not certainly have the
Speaker 1: kinds of wet markets that China has. On the other hands,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, were not perfect either, and the
Speaker 1: regulators here are stretched thin, and there certainly is not
Speaker 1: a very cohesive approach to make sure that a local
Speaker 1: market is being looked at by local and state folks
Speaker 1: regularly and then how those animals are treated is being
Speaker 1: addressed at the federal level. That's not really happening, and
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody can really make the argument that
Speaker 1: it is all right. That was Dean Scott talking about
Speaker 1: a story that he and Steven Lee wrote on wildlife trafficking.
Speaker 1: To read the story, or to just read about any
Speaker 1: wildlife or environmental news in general, go to our website
Speaker 1: Newstop Bloomberg environment dot com. Today's episode was produced by
Speaker 1: myself along with Josh Block and Marissa Horn. Parts Rebellion
Speaker 1: was created by Rachel Daegel and Jessica Coombs. The music
Speaker 1: for Parts Rebellion today was a Message by Jazarre and
Speaker 1: Upstate by Henning Schmidts. They were used under a Creative
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