1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: we don't have an amazing show for you Today. Director 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Matt Tiernauer stops by to talk some of the hidden 6 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: political figures who've shaped our politics. 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 2: But first we have Viep, executive producer, The One, the 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: Only Date Mandel. Welcome back to Fast Politics. 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 3: Dave Mandel, Thank you, always happy to come back. 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to have you back because I just love 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: you and think you're so funny, but also more importantly, 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: because I feel like you are both a historian with 13 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: the White House plumbers and a futurist with VEP. 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 4: I didn't know I was a futurist when I was 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 4: a futurist. You know. I think I may have said 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 4: to you one time privately. You know, this was a 17 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 4: bunch of people sitting in an office in Hollywood thinking 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 4: up the stupidest thing a president could do, like the 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 4: worst thing a politician could do. Like here's something no 20 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 4: one would ever do. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? 21 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: Can you imagine? And then just on a daily basis, 22 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 4: and then at some point in the like the true Trump, 23 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 4: you know, the four years of Trump, like an hourly basis, 24 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 4: just stuff just started coming true. And now I joke 25 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 4: with some of the writers in the cast, like every 26 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 4: year there are certain things that just happen again, Like 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 4: every year the daylight saving stuff happens. And that was 28 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 4: a big Jonah issue, and it's just it's like we 29 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 4: just we celebrate deep stories. You know what I mean, 30 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 4: Joanah is crazy immigration stuff. I mean, just it doesn't stop. 31 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 4: So I didn't set out to be a futurist. I 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 4: swear to God, Yeah it is. 33 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 34 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean, by the way, that daylight savings time, I 35 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: would like to point out that the Senate they voted 36 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: it's actually to stay on standard time I think, and 37 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: stop savings time. 38 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: Well you know about this because you've written about it. 39 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 4: Allow me to be a historian for a second. That 40 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 4: idea of Jonah going after daylight savings. And obviously he 41 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 4: had his own issues because he didn't know what time 42 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 4: it was, which was you know, very Jonah. But for us, 43 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 4: that was very much trying to find like the fifty 44 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 4: five mile per hour speed limit law. You know what 45 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 4: I mean, like to find those little, tiny things that 46 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 4: don't make a difference. One could argue it's the modern 47 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 4: day junk fees, you know what I mean. It's trying 48 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 4: to find those things that move the dial for the voters, 49 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 4: but in the grand scheme of things, perhaps maybe aren't 50 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 4: actually as important. 51 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 3: Not a lot. 52 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 4: By the way, I don't like junk fees, but I 53 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 4: worry much more about voting rights. You know, I'm not 54 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 4: worried that when Trump's going to be a dictator for 55 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 4: just a day, there's going to be more junk fees. 56 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: That's not high on my list of worries. But again, 57 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 4: it was just trying to find those sort of things. 58 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 4: You know, Reagan did it, Clinton did it, and we 59 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: sort of just picked a really stupid one. Only it 60 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 4: turned out then, you know, the Concrests and the Senate 61 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 4: were very interested in It's so I don't know, no 62 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 4: good answer. 63 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also me, but I'm very interested in it too. 64 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: As it gets it's about to be dark here in 65 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: about twenty minutes. But no, it's true, and it is 66 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: a low state. I mean, you know, right now, in 67 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: this do nothing Congress, as it's called. 68 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 4: I think that's an insult to previous do nothing congresses. 69 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 4: I would make that argument. Yeah, at least some of 70 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 4: those congresses were trying. 71 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: I don't know, but this Congress can't even name post offices. 72 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: You know. 73 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: The complaint about McCarthy was that all McCarthy was doing 74 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: was naming post offices. Now we have Speaker Johnson and 75 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: they're not even naming the post offices anymore. 76 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 4: Well, I think he's allowed to name them, but then 77 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 4: he has to let his son know he named them. 78 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: I'm not sure how that works exactly. Yeah, I mean 79 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 4: I'm not sure which son, his regular son or his 80 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 4: secret African American son. I'm not sure. 81 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: Oh that's right, his secret adopted son. 82 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, come on, man, I wouldn't write that 83 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 4: on me, you know, like like secret Dutch. So, although 84 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 4: I guess now I will. But yeah, someday, some days 85 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 4: my new show on Max Secret Adopted Son coming soon. 86 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you actually are doing a show on Santos discuss. 87 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 4: I'm not there, it is happening. It's Frank Rich is 88 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 4: doing it. 89 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 2: But you will end up working on that. 90 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 4: I'm sure I will help, But god, damn, I need 91 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 4: a break, and I just I want better smarter criminals, 92 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like, I you know, I want, 93 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 4: I can't take the gangs that wouldn't shoot straight. The 94 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 4: Santos stuff, I don't know, when you start getting into 95 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 4: the botox and whatnot, you just kind of go come on, really, 96 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 4: I mean, his list looked like someone made this point. 97 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 4: It looks like a teenage girl's Christmas list, you know 98 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 4: what I mean, like of like where he spent the 99 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 4: month on the fans. 100 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: Or mass looks like my Christmas. No, I'm just kidding. 101 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: The thing with Santos that I was struck by was 102 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: he got elected not because he was like a brilliant criminal, right, 103 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: Like I mean with the White House plumbers, you had 104 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, the wife was working for the CIA the 105 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: whole time, Right, you had some sort of very and right, 106 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: wasn't you working for the. 107 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 4: Dorothy was a you know, a former agent and was 108 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 4: a damn good agent who. 109 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: Was still sort of in it, right, you know, you 110 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: had people who were really were this was just like 111 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: a failure at every you know, nobody investigated him, so 112 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: he got elected. 113 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 4: Well that's that to me is actually the most interesting point. 114 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 4: To me, the most interesting point is just the sort 115 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 4: of if you will, The New York Times just ignoring it, 116 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 4: and wasn't it There was like a small local paper 117 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 4: like in Long Island that was sort of shouting to 118 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 4: the heavens and no one was paying attention. And by 119 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: the way, at some point, voters get what they deserve. 120 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 4: I knew. I mean, I know, we work hard to 121 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 4: sort of like make that not happen, but at some 122 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 4: point you just do sometimes kind of go, this is 123 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 4: what you want. And I don't even have an answer. 124 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 4: But that's the part of the Santos story I find 125 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 4: the most fascinating. And then, of course the Republicans, who basically, 126 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 4: you know, what are they down to now one vote 127 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 4: with when McCarthy leaves, basically their one death away from possibly. 128 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 2: Because Shila Jackson Lee went back, Yeah. 129 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 4: Yes, that's true, that's true. Yes, you're right, you're right. 130 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 4: So but I'm just simply saying, it's like the idea 131 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 4: that the Republicans had to do nothing but sort of 132 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 4: protect this guy, you know what I mean, and watching 133 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 4: him sort of trying to make friends in the Congress. 134 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 4: I don't know. That's that's the part of the story, 135 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 4: exactly exactly. I want to that's that's the part of it. 136 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 4: I really want to dig into less the drag queen 137 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 4: in Brazil and just more him try to make friends 138 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 4: and like standing next to people who did not want 139 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 4: to be standing next to him but kind of had to. 140 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 4: That I find fascinating. Luckily, there's no shortage of hypocrites 141 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 4: among the Republican Congress as well. They do nothing or 142 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 4: whenever yet right, And I. 143 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: Mean they were happy that the MAGA crew was happy 144 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: to take him in. 145 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 4: Oh, thrilled, thrilled in the grand scheme of things. He's 146 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 4: you know, super qualified. I guess, you know, had a 147 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: lot of credit card numbers. I don't know, you know, 148 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 4: right exactly. 149 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: He knows how to rip up a lot of people. 150 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: My favorite part of that whole story actually was so 151 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: as they were talking about kick him out, we had 152 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: a congressman who. 153 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: Had been in the Trump administration. 154 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: Max Miller, who said that Santos had stolen Max Miller 155 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: and Max Miller's mother's credit card to take illegal donations 156 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: from them both. But it turned out that Max Miller 157 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: was actually had been sort of in trouble for domestic abuse. 158 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: Of course, so even the person who is coming out 159 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: against Santos is not without. 160 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 4: Look, I don't have any answers. I'm not an expert, 161 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 4: but somehow this is all Hunter Biden's fault. That's what 162 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 4: that's the vibe I'm getting from the Republicans. 163 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: It was on the laptop. 164 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 4: Yep, this is this is what the Bidens have been doing. 165 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 4: This is very clear. Yeah, very becoming very clear to me. 166 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: Yes, it's the only answer. 167 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: But I interviewed an expert in presidential impeachments and we're 168 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: talking about this sort of legal whatever, and this will 169 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: be the first presidential impeachment on vibes. 170 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 4: Just the it's I get an icky feeling. Is that 171 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 4: what you mean? 172 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: It's just Republicans don't know what, but they know they 173 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: don't like that guy. 174 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, as long as it's secretive and behind closed doors, 175 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 4: I'm fine with you, you know what I mean? 176 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly what did they do? 177 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 4: They tried to vote today or yesterday for like the 178 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 4: Democrats wanted to put in like something like open and 179 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 4: something into the I don't even know the bill about 180 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 4: the the coming impeachment, and it was voted down by 181 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 4: the Republicans. 182 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: Yes, they wanted Hunter Biden to testify, and he said 183 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: he would testify in an open hearing, and they said no, 184 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: they only want him behind closed doors. 185 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 4: How dare you want to testify it an open hearing 186 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 4: which none of the people that were called to testify 187 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 4: for anything against Trump ever showed up for. 188 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean the double stand is really infuriating. 189 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: I mean remember all of those hearings where it was like, 190 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: Jim Jordan, won't you I mean, Jim Jordan divide a 191 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: congressional the subpoena. This is the guy who all he 192 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: does is send out congressional subpoenas and. 193 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: They don't care. I mean, you know, we're talking a 194 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 4: little bit about you know, history, if you will, And 195 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 4: it is just this sense of like, my god, like 196 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 4: do you even see yourself? You know, I don't know 197 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 4: what to say. 198 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: What was it? 199 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 4: John Allen called it like there used to be shame, 200 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, It's just like what happened 201 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 4: to shame? Like do you hear yourself? Do you see yourself? 202 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: So my question is it a gourvi daal thing? Is 203 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: it the United States of amnesia? Are we just too 204 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: stupid to remember the last season? 205 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 4: I do think that is a flaw in America, in 206 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 4: general that we just sort of I don't know if 207 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 4: it's we're too stupid, but we just like to put 208 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 4: it to bed. It's like that happened, let's move on, 209 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 4: that can never happen again, or that didn't happen, Let's 210 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 4: just keep going. But I do think there's a little 211 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 4: bit more of what is it, the difference between like, 212 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 4: you know, first and second degree murder. There's a lot 213 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 4: more premeditation these days, you know what I mean. I 214 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 4: just feel like it's a lot more purposeful, unfortunately, than 215 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 4: just stupid. It may be counting on people's stupidity to 216 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 4: not remember it, but the people that are trying to 217 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 4: do the forgetting, if you will, are far more purposeful 218 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 4: and unfortunately just far more sinister. I mean, I don't know, 219 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 4: ku jokes don't seem funny anymore. I don't know, just 220 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 4: speaking from a joke standpoint, from a joke writing standpoint, 221 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 4: the notion of ha ha, here come armed soldiers to 222 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 4: take over it just starts to like, oh wait, maybe 223 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, right, I. 224 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: Mean, when it's in the possible realm of possibility, I 225 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: feel like that does undermine. 226 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it's when it couldn't happen that it seems 227 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 4: funny when it could happen on you know whatever, January seventh. 228 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 4: I guess maybe they'll give us a day next time, 229 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 4: I don't know, or January twentieth, twenty first, you know, whenever, 230 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 4: I don't know, but just a lot less funny. I 231 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 4: was laughing. I don't know why this keeps making me laugh. 232 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 4: I just like the idea that Trump will slowly reduce 233 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 4: the amount of time that he's willing to be a dick, 234 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 4: where he'll just kind of give these different statements and go, 235 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 4: I will just be addictated for six hours, you know, 236 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 4: Like I like as if like, oh, that's so much 237 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 4: better than a day. It's just like, oh my god, 238 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 4: I'll just be feurer for six hours. 239 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: Come on, right exactly. 240 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: But it is this larger question of like how we 241 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: got here where, Like I didn't like w I mean, 242 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: I don't know that he was a genius, but he 243 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: was a you know, he made it through Yale. He 244 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess Trump made it through Penn. So 245 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: forget it. Never mind a bad example. 246 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 4: I mean I'll say this, and it's like I can 247 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 4: think of a lot of Republican presidents that I didn't 248 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 4: care for, but I didn't hate them with a passion 249 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 4: of a thousand suns. And I did not feel like 250 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 4: they were trying to I don't know, like that there 251 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 4: was a chance, yeah, that they would and there was 252 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 4: a chance that they would never leave office, you know 253 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 4: what I mean, or try and pass it on. Well, 254 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 4: I guess, you know, George Bush technically did eventually pass 255 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 4: the presidency on to his son, but there were elections, 256 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 4: or at least they were seemingly elections, you know, So 257 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 4: maybe that's not a good example either. But you know 258 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 4: what I'm kind of going for, there's just like a 259 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: true con serence of like we just seem like the 260 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 4: kind of country we used to make fun of. Like 261 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 4: it just seems like we're a country, like some weird 262 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 4: little country in Europe that like no one like you know, 263 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 4: oh my god, you see what they did, you know, 264 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 4: and it's just like now it's us. Yeah, that's that's. 265 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: The problem there. We're like Lichtenstein, except exactly like that funny. 266 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 4: Some weird little movie of some sort where it's just like, well, 267 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 4: now you're the king. Wait what you know. 268 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: I think that's a good point, and I do. 269 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: I also think that we were always a country that 270 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: the rest of the world made fun of, So the 271 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: fact that we've only become worse is probably not a 272 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: great song. 273 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 4: Not good at all. But I mean, you know, look, 274 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 4: there are all these things that we like to ignore, 275 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 4: that there are no newspapers, and even there the newspapers 276 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 4: that exist, a lot of people don't read them, and 277 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 4: where people are getting their news, and all these things 278 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 4: work hand in hand. And maybe it was all part 279 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 4: of a master plot. Maybe it wasn't. It doesn't really matter. 280 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 4: These things all work together. 281 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: So it's just kind of like to get us here. 282 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, the average Trump supporter, the die hard, you know, 283 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 4: like like he's the man whatever, the fact that like 284 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 4: Donald Trump, and by the way, there are probably a 285 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 4: lot of Democrats that don't really care about the average 286 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: working man, but Trump says it out loud, and it 287 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 4: doesn't seem to change people's opinions, you know what I mean. 288 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 4: I just that's the part where I just go, I 289 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 4: don't get it, and I don't know what else to say. 290 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we should devote like the rest of 291 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: our time talking about how much tech bros Have ruined 292 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: the world. 293 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 4: That's pretty good. 294 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, not political in nature, it is politically adjacent. 295 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: After making billions of dollars. 296 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: Off us, they have decided now they are going to 297 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: be the mainstream media discuss. 298 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 4: Obviously, you know, the great defender of free speech, Elon Musk, 299 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 4: has now decided that some speech is freer than others. 300 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 4: These tech guys, you know, they've always liked to sort 301 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 4: of put themselves into this other category. You know, they 302 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 4: always were you know, we call them jokingly tech bros. 303 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 4: But you know, they always like wanted to pretend like 304 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 4: tech was this other thing. And at the end of 305 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 4: the day, they're just robber barons and they just want 306 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 4: the same things. They want no taxes, They want their 307 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 4: workers to work crazy hours at really terrible price. You know, 308 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 4: they just they want everything that the worst guy from 309 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 4: the eighteen hundreds wanted, you know, and they but they 310 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 4: but this idea that somehow that they don't that it's 311 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 4: other because they're doing futuristic stuff. You know, it just 312 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 4: it's just absolute fucking bullshit. Just another group of guys. 313 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 4: Where why not have twenty billion? Oh, if I've got 314 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 4: twenty billion, boy, twenty two billion would be so much 315 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 4: fucking better. Let's just fuck everything up and it fuck 316 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 4: everyone over. I mean, that's the part that's just disgusting. 317 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: I don't know what else to say. 318 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: My favorite part about Elon, though, is here is this guy. Right, 319 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: we have basically been giving tech bros free content because 320 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: we were told that it was the only way. 321 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: Right, you have to give them free you not allow charts. 322 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember my mother writing for the Huffington 323 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: Post a million years ago and people chastising her and 324 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: being like, you know, you're not making any money, you're 325 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: devaluing the currency, right because she would write for it 326 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: for free, because she'd. 327 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: Be on the cover of it. And fast forward right 328 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: here we are now. 329 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: Tech bros have gotten our content for free, and now 330 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: they're like, we don't actually want a mainstream media at all. 331 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: We're just going to have you know, the crass and stems, 332 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, and Tucker Carlson and you know three other guys. 333 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 4: And as of what as of two days ago, Alex 334 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 4: Jones now right where Alex is back? 335 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean, the media is such a like 336 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: piddly little business compared to like. 337 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 4: But this is the problem. I mean, Elon Musk, you know, 338 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: I guess likes to present himself as one of the 339 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 4: smartest men in the world. Okay, but bought Twitter basically 340 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 4: because he kind of said the wrong thing in some ways, 341 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 4: like Stu like almost like drunkenly bought a billion dollar company, 342 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: has run it into the ground, changed the name of it, 343 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 4: destroyed the branding of it, opened it up to just 344 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 4: insane racism and anti semitism. I mean, it's just a 345 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 4: day does not go by, and this hasn't happened in years, 346 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 4: where just I'm just constantly being attempted to be followed 347 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 4: by you know, bots and fake people in a way 348 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 4: that you know hadn't gone on in like, you know, 349 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 4: six years, seven years. Like just crazy message. But just 350 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 4: like I guess where I'm kind of going with this 351 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 4: is ram this thing into the ground where it makes 352 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 4: no money. He legitimately lost money on it. 353 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: Like about twenty billion dollars not. 354 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 4: Like right, but it doesn't matter because his car company 355 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 4: and his space company that we are still giving giant 356 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 4: tax breaks to made so much money. It not only 357 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 4: paid for his fuck ups, but he can like do 358 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 4: even more fuck ups. So that is the oil company's 359 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 4: just it's now a tech guy and that's the problem. 360 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: No, that's right, and I think it's both annoying and 361 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: also but I mean, I guess the idea is he 362 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: doesn't want anyone writing anything bad about him. 363 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 4: Right, I guess everything is free until you criticize him. 364 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 4: And honestly, if I had the energy, the only postings 365 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: I would do would be just you know, making fun 366 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 4: of him, if I had the time and the energy, 367 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 4: Like that, to me is what everyone on Twitter should 368 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 4: just be doing, like literally posting nothing but making up 369 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: stuff about him. And honestly, at some point, I think 370 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 4: it's better to do stuff that's real. But honestly, I 371 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 4: would if if I could, if I could command the world, 372 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 4: just post fake shit about elon Musk day and night, 373 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 4: just date this site. That would be enjoyable. We again, 374 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 4: no lesson learned because even if he shut it down tomorrow, 375 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 4: but even if he just said Twitter's done, I'm gone, 376 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 4: we're closing the doors, it doesn't work anymore. He wouldn't 377 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 4: lose any money, and he'd probably figure out a way 378 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 4: to sell all our home addresses or something, or all 379 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 4: our addresses to someplace even worse, you know what I mean. 380 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 4: So I don't know that's the problem when you can 381 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 4: do this and somehow continue to profit. That is our 382 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 4: system in a nut shell. Oh God, I've depressed myself. 383 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 4: I got to call my therapist. Sorry this damn man. 384 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: Now, please come back anytime. 385 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 4: I always love it. I always love coming on saying hi. 386 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: Matt Tyrnauer is a director of films like Where Is 387 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: My Roy Cohen and Valentino The Last Emperor, Welcome Too Fast, 388 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: pology Matt. 389 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 3: Thank you first. 390 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: You've made so many amazing movies. 391 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: But I want to talk to you about Roy Cohen 392 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: because I feel like this all starts with Roy Cone. 393 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: Trump. Is this whole shit show? Roy Cohen? 394 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. I mean, he's really the Zaleg 395 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 3: of our present moment. A few years ago, I put 396 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: out a movie called Where's My Roy Cone? The title 397 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: given to me by the former guy who exclaimed when 398 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: Jeff Sessions wouldn't do his bidding as Attorney General, Where's 399 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 3: my Roy Cone? Meaning where's my law breaking, convention busting 400 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 3: mob adjacent attorney slash Attorney General. And the premise of 401 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: that film was to show people in what Gorvie Dahl 402 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: used to call the United States of Amnesia, we're just 403 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 3: talking about Yes. 404 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: In the last interview, I said, is does this relate 405 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: to the United States of Amnesia? 406 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: Exactly? The man who was Bengali to Joe McCarthy was 407 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 3: Bengali to Donald Trump. So that type of politics was 408 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 3: always brewing, kind of coming up above the surface, occasionally geysering, 409 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: like in the McCarthy period, going back down, then the 410 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: John Birch era going back down, and then really it's 411 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 3: back with a vengeance. Of course, somebody's gone back down 412 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 3: during a bit during the Biden three years, but now 413 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 3: we're poised for another big explosion. 414 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: I think about Gorephetal, who I knew a little bit 415 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and how he was of 416 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: that generation of writers, not so different in age, a 417 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: little bit older than Hitch Chris Brigeons. But those guys 418 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: really wrote these political pieces that really had a lot 419 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: of breadth to them. I wonder why we don't have 420 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: that so much anymore. 421 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: Well, I don't think people read fays in the popular 422 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: press anymore. It's weird because just like the magazine I 423 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: used to be a magazine journalist at Vanity's Air, and 424 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: the magazine's really dead. That type of magazine used to 425 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 3: be it. You know, that was the great vestige thing, 426 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 3: and that as a forum really doesn't exist in that 427 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: way anymore because media has become adamized. Of course, people 428 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: write at length in places like medium and sub stack, 429 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: and there's wonderful thinking and writing, but it's not in 430 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 3: that sort of front and center place anymore where Hitchens 431 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 3: or a Vidal or heaven forfend, William F. Buckley could 432 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: be public figures in public intellectuals and for God's sakes, 433 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 3: I mean, those guys were on the Dick Caviat Show 434 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 3: and Johnny Carson and MERV Griffin we had public debates. Yeah, 435 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 3: well it was just more focus. I mean, if you're 436 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: old enough to remember the twilight of the Great Anchorman era, 437 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 3: when you had a Walter Cronkite and a John Chancellor 438 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 3: and later a broke On, a Jennings and a rather 439 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: to sort of give you an agreed upon agenda that 440 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 3: conformed to an idea of the public trust in media, 441 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: which was that there were agreed upon facts. I mean, 442 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: of course sometimes the narratives were wrong, but they were 443 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: generally think more in the public. 444 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: Trust, more right than they are now. 445 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 3: Certainly, and people look to those figures, so there was 446 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: sort of like a focal point. Now, of course everything 447 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: to adamize, and we don't need to get into that 448 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: because it's the Twitter versus the experts, and I think 449 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: that's the symptom of the present moment in media that 450 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 3: we're in. But it, like everything, it's everyone's distracted and 451 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 3: strung out, and their cortisol levels are so high because 452 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: we're all kind of like bobbing our heads up and 453 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 3: down to our iPhones and red pilled and blue pilled. 454 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: I think of you, doll and a Hitchens and the 455 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 3: great public intellectuals of the time, a song tag even 456 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: they wouldn't command the same type of audience. Of course, 457 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: they'd be Twitter stars. And what does that get you? 458 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 3: I mean your You're a Twitter star, aren't you? I mean, 459 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 3: what what do you think your influences compared to a Hitchens? 460 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: What kind of question? 461 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't get it. 462 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: You're on my podcast, buddy, you don't get to ask me. 463 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: First of all, I'm not going to answer that question, 464 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: because what is my influence compared to a Hitchin's or 465 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: more influential? Well, it was rhetorical, but I mean I 466 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: think I don't know that world doesn't exist anymore. 467 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 2: As someone who is very much a product of that world. 468 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: I don't think that tech pro barons are such a 469 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: great thing because you know, they have a completely narcissistic 470 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: interest in the mainstream media and the interest in creating 471 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: their own media, like a sort of in Style magazine 472 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: for twenty twenty three. Right, they just want sort of adulation. 473 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: But I also think that back then, you know, you 474 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: had this incredible bar to entry, right, you couldn't have 475 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, they were the people who were part of 476 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: the media were affluent, they were largely white, they were 477 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: almost always men. They were you know, they had a 478 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: very similar worldview, The narratives were very very similar. It 479 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: was not easy to break in, and it was also 480 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: there was not a lot of diversity of thoughts. So 481 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: I think, like, yes, there was some great writing that 482 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: happened during that period, and I think about Tom Wolfe's 483 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: journalism was like some of the best. 484 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: Right, all these people are white men. 485 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: There are a few women who are allowed to you know, 486 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: there's a Joan Diddion once in a while, but like 487 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, they're pretty white and they're pretty male. 488 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: So in my mind. 489 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think that we were so well off then, 490 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: but I do think what we have now is also 491 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: very promat. 492 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you just outlined the bad part. That 493 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 3: was really the bad part. Of course, of course, I 494 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 3: mean there's a good part to all of the atomization, 495 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 3: of course, but obviously there's there're great danger looms ahead. 496 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 3: The media barons before had to adhere to a kind 497 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: of guardrail, which was the public trust. If you were 498 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 3: going to be licensed, you had to be responsible. But 499 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: it's a period to that sense that you were talking about. Yeah, 500 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: of course more diversities better, but managing media companies and 501 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 3: the public, the so called public square, the sense of 502 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 3: the public trust that the great FCC chairman Newton Minno 503 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: declared in the sixties, you know, has just littled away. 504 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: So what are you working on now? 505 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: Politics wise? I'm actually and I think this is the 506 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 3: first time this has ever been revealed. I'm doing a 507 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 3: document theory about your guest of I think three days ago, 508 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 3: James Carvidal. 509 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: Yes, he told me, that's right, He actually did tell 510 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: me a Carvel documentary. How did you get there? And 511 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: also I am delighted, you. 512 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 3: Know, James has been on the scene for more than 513 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: thirty years now. It's hard to maintain that level of 514 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 3: household name fame for that long and relevance, and I 515 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 3: think he's an American original. I thought that would be 516 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 3: a great person to focus on. I think he's also 517 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 3: a truth teller, and I think he's the one Democrat 518 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 3: that can speak to people who are limiting liberals, it seems, 519 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 3: which is an incredibly important trait right now in our 520 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 3: present political moment. So it's also a meditation on politics 521 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: of the last thirty years, at first through his lens 522 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 3: as someone who's credited with helping Clinton win the White House, 523 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 3: teaching Democrat that they could win again how to win 524 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: an election, which often is I think something that Democrats 525 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 3: don't really pay heed to. I think people forget that 526 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 3: James Carville and Mary Mataline were political media supernovae in 527 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: the nineties, and I want to go back and look 528 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 3: at that moment because they were a bipartisan marriage, absolute superstars, 529 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 3: household names, and they really captured the American imagination. I 530 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 3: think people were sort of filtering their own marriages through them, 531 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: and that moment I think is really fascinating to re examine. 532 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 3: So it's all wrapped up in this movie I'm doing 533 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 3: on James. I've been following him for approximately two years 534 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 3: as he stopped the country. Felt very active, yes, and 535 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: very relevant. I mean he was the first in Kansas 536 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,479 Speaker 3: the National Democrat. I think you'd be the only National 537 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 3: Democrat to go to Kansas when they were doing the 538 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 3: pro choice referendum and that one which was a belt weather. 539 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: He actually really is very much part of America. I 540 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: mean he spends a lot of time right in parts 541 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: of Louisiana that don't have a Starbucks. 542 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 3: Far from it. I mean he's from a place called Carville, Louisiana, 543 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: where I filmed with him. I think it was ninety 544 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 3: eight percent black when you grew up, and I think 545 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 3: it still is almost that ratio. They were the family 546 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 3: that kind of had the postal concession there and ran 547 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 3: the general store. Well, I realized I went back there 548 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: with James, is that I think his empathy and his 549 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 3: life's project is to help the marginalize through democratic politics, 550 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 3: because he comes from one of the most marginalized communities 551 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: in the United States. Yes, he was a white guy 552 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 3: in a really poor black part of Louisiana, but he 553 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: emerged as a pro civil rights political activist who I 554 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: think learned empathy by seeing all of the disadvantage people 555 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 3: with whom he grew up, and he devoted his life 556 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 3: to try to correct the wrongs that were embedded in 557 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 3: the economic political system of this country. So that's really 558 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 3: the Carville project I've discovered, and that type of progressive 559 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: Paul politics of that era is something he embodies, and 560 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 3: he's the best kind of sound bite strategist and big 561 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 3: picture strategists I think that politics has had in probably 562 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 3: several generations. 563 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: I also it's interesting that I think about, like the 564 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: Republican equivalent of him, is that like nude Gangridge. 565 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 3: Well, I think at a moment, it was probably Lee. 566 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: Atwater, right, Oh, that's a good point. 567 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: And Lee Atwater died young, and interestingly Atwater was the 568 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: mentor of Mary Mattlin, who's James Carbill's wife. So there 569 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 3: are a lot of range and coincidental or maybe not 570 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: so coincidental themes in this that emerge from the politics 571 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 3: of that era that prefigures our own. Much like my 572 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 3: Morey Cone movie. What I like doing, I like kind 573 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: of digging out hidden themes or themes that have gone 574 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 3: underground in the United States of amnesia, since we're not 575 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,239 Speaker 3: talk history and no one remembers anything, or we can 576 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: google it and then forget it two seconds later. I 577 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: think that's how I like to address my form, or 578 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: cut and practice by form, which is the long deep 579 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 3: dive cinematically, to be a sort of national reckoning moment 580 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 3: of these themes that have haunted us about the twentieth century, 581 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 3: and we seem to forget them and then they come 582 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 3: up and hit us in the face like a two 583 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: by four because we're not looking. 584 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: Were you able to interview any of the Clintons. 585 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: I interviewed Ake Clinton, who was in a presidential situation 586 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 3: at one time. 587 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the one probably the most relevant one to 588 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: that movie, I would think. 589 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're both well, actually Hillary hired, I 590 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: think more or less. I mean, it really was the 591 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 3: two for one era of the Clintons at that time. 592 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 3: I mean, she was very important in the campaign, and 593 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 3: she was a chief strategist in that Campaign's really interesting 594 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 3: to kind of go granular and revisit how that campaign worked, 595 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 3: because you have to remember, in the early nineties, a 596 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: lot of really wise people around democratic politics thought there'd 597 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 3: never be another Democratic president again. 598 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: After Carter. 599 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean after Jimmy Carter's loss and Walter Mondale's 600 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: loss and Reagan, you know, Poppy Bush's triumph and as 601 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 3: the third term of Ronald Reagan. I think what Bill 602 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 3: Clinton and James Carville and the people involved that campaign 603 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 3: show was that you could win as a Democrat. And 604 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 3: I don't agree with a lot of their politics. Frankly, 605 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 3: I'm a little more liberal than those people, but I 606 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 3: think that's one of the lessons of Carville that's relevant 607 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 3: to this moment is you can't let the perfect be 608 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 3: the enemy of the good. You've got to win election 609 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 3: in order to affect change. And I mean when he 610 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 3: talks to you on this podcast, he preaches that, and 611 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 3: I think it's a really important lesson for us, especially 612 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: at this time when we have such fractics politics and 613 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 3: identitarian politics that is a particular problem in the Democratic Party. 614 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 3: I think James has been the one who's spoken up 615 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 3: and just said, look, everyone, let's get a Democrat elected 616 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 3: and not faith the ABYSS and the dissolution of the 617 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: project that the founders kicked off two hundred and fifty years. 618 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely have much higher stakes than a sort 619 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: of normal politics. But that movie, The War Room, Yeah, 620 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: was one of the great movies about a political campaign. 621 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 3: It was. It's a da Pennebaker film. He's one of 622 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 3: my heroes, really, one of the gods of cinema verite filmmaking, 623 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 3: which is the type of filmmaking I like to do most. 624 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: He embedded in the ninety two Little Rock Headquarters. And 625 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 3: in that film, if the audience hasn't seen it, you 626 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 3: get to see Carville and George Stephanopoulos, who was the 627 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 3: communications director at that time before his media career for 628 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: Bill Clinton. Hear of the campaign and it's a really 629 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 3: interesting fly on the wall. Look at how brilliant they were, 630 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 3: and particularly James. It's really James's movie to his vision 631 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 3: and what a kind of inspiring visionary character he was. 632 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 3: And also, by the way, up from nothing, he was 633 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: a total failure, James Carville until he was in his 634 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 3: I think late forties. He hit it when he was 635 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 3: about fifty with that campaign, aren't we all? 636 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: Man? 637 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: I do think that George Stefanopolis does not age or 638 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: he was eleven in that movie, maybe both, maybe both. 639 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: Matt very excited to see that movie, thank you so 640 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: much for joining us. 641 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 3: Thank you. 642 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,239 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 643 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 644 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 645 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 646 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.