Speaker 1: I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to What's
Speaker 1: Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a show
Speaker 1: about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and personal journeys. Together,
Speaker 1: we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors, and leaders
Speaker 1: of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday, or
Speaker 1: join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her Story Podcast.
Speaker 1: Gabrielle Blair's original website, Design Mom, was named a Time
Speaker 1: Magazine Website of the Year. She is the founder of
Speaker 1: the design conference Alt Summit and author of the New
Speaker 1: York Times best selling book Design Mom. Her newest book
Speaker 1: is Ejaculate Responsibly, a whole new way to think about abortion. So, Gabby,
Speaker 1: let's dig in a little bit to your story. You
Speaker 1: call yourself an accidental thought leader. How did this journey begin? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I went to school for graphic design. I
Speaker 1: certainly didn't think of myself as a writer or or
Speaker 1: any kind of thought leader that way. Um I did
Speaker 1: think of myself as a problem solver. For me, design
Speaker 1: was always problem solving, and um so that has ended
Speaker 1: up affecting how I approach any of these current event topics.
Speaker 1: But um, basically I started the blog and I called
Speaker 1: a design mom, and I said the subtitle was the
Speaker 1: intersection of design and parenting, and or maybe it was
Speaker 1: design and motherhood. And I quickly realized I could write
Speaker 1: about anything at that intersection. Like it really allowed me
Speaker 1: to kind of do whatever I wanted, which was so
Speaker 1: great for me, because I didn want to write about everything.
Speaker 1: I wanted to write about parenting, I wanted to write
Speaker 1: about design. I wanted to write about you know, the
Speaker 1: elections or whatever is happening, my religion, like I wanted
Speaker 1: to write about all of it, and um, it allowed
Speaker 1: me too, So that was great. If there was something
Speaker 1: that felt very out of reach, I could always just
Speaker 1: add a question at the end. It was like, how
Speaker 1: would you talk about this with your children? You know?
Speaker 1: And that's like now it's parenting now, now it's at
Speaker 1: the intersection. And as blogging changed, remember two thousands six
Speaker 1: is pre pinterest, pre Instagram, pre any of that, and
Speaker 1: a blog post at that time really was on a
Speaker 1: design blog was as simple as like, look at this cube,
Speaker 1: you know, diaper bag I found in a link like
Speaker 1: that that was a blog post, and you'd do like
Speaker 1: three or four a day, or you'd be like, here's
Speaker 1: something cool I found. I mean, it was less work
Speaker 1: even than an Instagram post, you know, it was just
Speaker 1: so simple, and that's kind of what a blog was.
Speaker 1: But then blocks changed. We got all these other visual
Speaker 1: outlets and now we're like writing essays and they were
Speaker 1: always essay blogs, but design blogs weren't that, and so
Speaker 1: my posts got longer and longer form as I stuck
Speaker 1: with this, and eventually I'm like, oh, I'm I'm like
Speaker 1: writing a lot. And I still wasn't calling myself a writer.
Speaker 1: In fact, maybe in the last year I've called myself
Speaker 1: a writer a few times, but still in my head
Speaker 1: was like, well, not a writer, I'm a designer. So
Speaker 1: that's where when I talked about being an accident thought leader.
Speaker 1: I didn't set out to do this, but the design mom,
Speaker 1: I mean, for at least a decade, had a very big,
Speaker 1: steady audience. I could talk about anything. The comments section
Speaker 1: was amazing, just like the smartest woman in the world,
Speaker 1: all discussing stuff, having different points of view, but never
Speaker 1: attacking each other. It would always just be someone saying,
Speaker 1: well this has been my experience, and like sharing their story,
Speaker 1: and then someone else might share a totally different story,
Speaker 1: but it was never like you or you know, it
Speaker 1: was just the most friendly place. It was. It was amazing.
Speaker 1: And so people reading or watching are being exposed to
Speaker 1: so many different points of view from so many different
Speaker 1: people and so many different you know, from different walks
Speaker 1: of life, and in this you know, non threatening way,
Speaker 1: and it just was really really wonderful. And so then
Speaker 1: I started, of course getting requests on like hey, can
Speaker 1: you discuss X topic? Can you discuss this? Because they
Speaker 1: wanted this discussion, this safe discussion place, and so I would.
Speaker 1: I would right about whatever was happening in the world.
Speaker 1: And as my kids were getting older too, we were
Speaker 1: discussing that stuff at the dinner table anyway, Like they're
Speaker 1: the stuff that some of you want to child your
Speaker 1: kids from. They're not being shielded from. They're seeing it
Speaker 1: on TikTok or they're seeing on Twitter or wherever they are, Like,
Speaker 1: they're seeing the same headlines that I'm seeing, and so
Speaker 1: let's talk about it, you know, and and um, so
Speaker 1: whatever we were talking about the dinner table, I knew
Speaker 1: the blog audience would want to talk about two. And
Speaker 1: I could translate a post there at what point did
Speaker 1: the blog turn into a business That was like almost immediate,
Speaker 1: but the business has changed over the years. But what
Speaker 1: happened was a few months in I put on this
Speaker 1: software called track c. This is before Google Analytics, and
Speaker 1: this is like a little analytics program that showed you
Speaker 1: how many people are coming to your blog. I was
Speaker 1: getting three or four comments on a post. So I
Speaker 1: was like, I was delighted. It was wonderful, but I
Speaker 1: knew every single person right that was writing. So I
Speaker 1: put tracks the on and it's blowing my mind. It's
Speaker 1: like people have come to your blog today or and
Speaker 1: I was like, what who are these people? Like one
Speaker 1: of the world, Like it was just like shocking to me.
Speaker 1: Of course, those numbers are so tiny now compared to
Speaker 1: how big a group. But at the time, I was like,
Speaker 1: there's four comments and I know them. Who are these
Speaker 1: ninety nine? Like what is this? I blew my mind?
Speaker 1: And I was so curious, and I was like I
Speaker 1: want them to say hello, like I want him to
Speaker 1: say hello. So I invented the blog giveaway. Like I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys know that I did the
Speaker 1: first blog emory comment to it. Yeah, So I so
Speaker 1: I was like, what could get them to do this?
Speaker 1: I knew it was a learned thing. Remember, people hadn't
Speaker 1: done caption yet, Like to leave a comment was like
Speaker 1: a learned skill, like where do you go? What do
Speaker 1: you do? You know? Like it felt scary, So I'm like,
Speaker 1: I need to give them some motivation. So my husband
Speaker 1: had a high school friend who had just started a
Speaker 1: shop and this cue little online shop, and I said, hey,
Speaker 1: would you send a prize to a winner? She's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll send these earrings. I'm like, great, super And so
Speaker 1: I say, hey, if you leave a comment, you're entered
Speaker 1: to win. We're gonna randomly pick someone. And and then
Speaker 1: Darley was gonna send you these earrings. And Darley Bird's
Speaker 1: the shop. And I got like seventy comments, and my
Speaker 1: phone is ringing off the hook because all the people that,
Speaker 1: like people I knew in real life are called me, going,
Speaker 1: who are these people who is reading your blood? How
Speaker 1: did they find it? Because in their minds, it's like
Speaker 1: they're reading it and they're like neighbors reading it and
Speaker 1: like my sisters reading it, because that's who they're seeing
Speaker 1: comments from. So the commenters kind of knew each other
Speaker 1: in real life too, and then all of a sudden
Speaker 1: that change. Here's like all these people and it was
Speaker 1: really really fun. Immediately afterwards, I probably received thirty emails
Speaker 1: from other bloggers saying can I copy and paste it?
Speaker 1: Like can I can I do the same people? I'm
Speaker 1: like yeah, I'm sure whatever and like. So that is
Speaker 1: when I was like, oh, this is a business. When
Speaker 1: I realized like, oh, there's people here, something's happening here. Okay,
Speaker 1: how do I do this? And so then I started
Speaker 1: selling little ads on my side, and then eventually I
Speaker 1: got signed with Federated Media, which is defunct now but
Speaker 1: made a lot of careers. That's when I signed with them.
Speaker 1: That was two thousand and ten, so that was already
Speaker 1: a lot of years. That's when I was getting a
Speaker 1: full time income from blogging. But until then I was
Speaker 1: just like scrambling, scrambling, scrambling. I started All Summit that year.
Speaker 1: It's like I was like using my blogging connections to
Speaker 1: get speakers for All Summit. Like once I saw that
Speaker 1: track see data of like there's like a hundred people here,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, something's going on. And of course
Speaker 1: I just kept growing and growing. When you first started
Speaker 1: All summit, What was the idea behind all summit? And
Speaker 1: how do you just start a conference? How do you
Speaker 1: make it happen? For a couple of years, I'd gone
Speaker 1: to blog her and that was like the conference at
Speaker 1: the time. I really loved it, had so much fun.
Speaker 1: Went to Chicago, but every class I went to was
Speaker 1: about writing. It was like writers, which is great, and
Speaker 1: a lot of mom you know, it's like the mom
Speaker 1: blog era, so a lot of mom writers, which you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm my blog called design Mom, so I'm fitting
Speaker 1: right in, except that I'm more than reading these mom blogs.
Speaker 1: I was reading design blogs. I was reading design Sponge
Speaker 1: and oh Joy and Apartment Therapy. And none of them
Speaker 1: had kids yet, you know, and they certainly weren't doing
Speaker 1: sort of parenting kind of blogs. And none of them
Speaker 1: were at these conferences, and we weren't talking about any
Speaker 1: of the topics that affected design bloggers. And I have
Speaker 1: a sister, Jordan Ferny, who had started a design block.
Speaker 1: She also didn't have kids yet. I had a sister
Speaker 1: in law list down they who started saying yes, who
Speaker 1: also didn't have kids yet, and so they're part of
Speaker 1: the design blog world. And we were all on this trip,
Speaker 1: and I was just telling them, like, I love going
Speaker 1: to these converces. It's so fun. Um, it's so fun
Speaker 1: because you're, like, you know, you work so isolated as
Speaker 1: a as a blogger and now a content creator whatever
Speaker 1: we're calling ourselves these days, and it's so fun to
Speaker 1: just go like talk shop in person with like people
Speaker 1: that get it right. Like, I love these conferences. And
Speaker 1: I was saying, but I wish like the design bloggers
Speaker 1: were that. That's who I want to meet. That's why
Speaker 1: I want to hear from. I want to learn what
Speaker 1: they're what they're doing. So then my sister Sarah, who
Speaker 1: not a blogger, but who has done a lot of
Speaker 1: events stuff. She's her husband's a politician at the time,
Speaker 1: and she had stayed political science as well and had
Speaker 1: done just like a lot of political events, and she
Speaker 1: was like, well, let's do a design blog conference. I'll
Speaker 1: do the organization part and like, you know, all the
Speaker 1: bloggers and you can get them all there, And so
Speaker 1: she did all the event organization. We held it in
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, which is where she was connected to,
Speaker 1: and we called it Altitude Design Summit because it was
Speaker 1: in the mountains. And then it got short into all
Speaker 1: summit very quickly. And then the first panel, the opening
Speaker 1: panel was Maxwell from Apartment Therapy, Great Spawnie from Design
Speaker 1: Spawn Design Sponge had their Armstrong of Deuce who was
Speaker 1: both mommy blogger but also this photographer designer, and then
Speaker 1: um Gene of of Not Caught, which maybe you don't
Speaker 1: know as well, but as it was a big, big
Speaker 1: deal at the time anyway, so this is the opening
Speaker 1: panel of the conference, and it was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is real, this is like, these are the top names,
Speaker 1: like and this answers saw it. We're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a thing, Like this is I mean, this is
Speaker 1: the thing. Right. So that first year though, I mean sponsors,
Speaker 1: like who did we have. I don't don't even remember,
Speaker 1: Like it was local friends or whatever. It was just
Speaker 1: like trying to pull this together. But like you had
Speaker 1: this this opening panel that you could point to that
Speaker 1: We're like, these are the big names, and it was
Speaker 1: like oh the next year it was so much easier
Speaker 1: to sell tickets, so much easier to get sponsorships, etcetera.
Speaker 1: But basically, if you have an event plunting background or
Speaker 1: some experience there, that's what you need to you know,
Speaker 1: talk to a hotel. Talk to Ben, use that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. Make sure you know how much food do
Speaker 1: you need to have? You know, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: And then for the content that was my area, like
Speaker 1: what are we talking about, what are the panels about,
Speaker 1: what's happening there? So I mean, yes, go start a conference.
Speaker 1: I have to tell you another story of the first
Speaker 1: the first all semmate. One of the attendees, his name
Speaker 1: has been named Ben Silverman. He was just an attendee.
Speaker 1: He had just signed up, heard about it and signed up,
Speaker 1: and he was walking around trying to get people to
Speaker 1: look at his his little website he created. It's a
Speaker 1: little beta version to kind of check it out, and
Speaker 1: everyone's you know, super friendly, and we're all checking it out.
Speaker 1: And one of the people he really connected with was
Speaker 1: Victoria Smith, who's sp girl by the Bay big big
Speaker 1: design blogger, and they ended up like flying back to
Speaker 1: the Bay Area at the same time. And the little
Speaker 1: site that Ben was showing your own was Pinterest. And
Speaker 1: the next year he came and he's the panelist this time.
Speaker 1: By then, like the design world had found Pinterest and
Speaker 1: was like, this is amazing, It's exactly what we needed.
Speaker 1: This is just like so perfect, we can bookmark all
Speaker 1: our visuals. And the next year, the third year, he
Speaker 1: came and he's the keynote like Pinters had just like
Speaker 1: take it off in a huge way and one of
Speaker 1: his quotes that we've used because we love so much
Speaker 1: as he says, all sum it is the the soil
Speaker 1: that Pinterest grew out of. And it is like he
Speaker 1: came and he found exactly who he needed to find.
Speaker 1: He found all the coolest design bloggers who were like
Speaker 1: so visual and cool and could just pin the most
Speaker 1: amazing content and it really grew Pinterest a wonderful way.
Speaker 1: And now a quick break. So your new book is
Speaker 1: called Ejaculate Responsibly. And it started out as a Twitter thread.
Speaker 1: Did you really think out the thread or did you
Speaker 1: write it as you went or like how did it unfold?
Speaker 1: Because this Twitter dread for people who don't know millions
Speaker 1: and millions interactions over a course of years, Like I
Speaker 1: don't think there's been a day where that thread isn't
Speaker 1: still making magic on Twitter still. I was just on
Speaker 1: Twitter today. It's still doing stuff on Twitter today. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's been so with September and we're in November, so
Speaker 1: it's uh, yeah, four years plus now it's it's been active.
Speaker 1: So I wrote out my thoughts or sort of an
Speaker 1: essay form of that, maybe six months before the actual thread.
Speaker 1: I'd never written a Twitter thread before, and it's different.
Speaker 1: You have to like break it up into these very
Speaker 1: specific lengths, and so I did rewrite it kind of
Speaker 1: for Twitter that day that I published it. But I mean,
Speaker 1: Twitter is funny, like I've been on it longer than
Speaker 1: any other social media. I think I got on in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, but then I didn't use it
Speaker 1: for years, or like would barely use it. If I
Speaker 1: had like a sponsored post, i'd put it on Twitter
Speaker 1: or something like that, but I wasn't really actively using it.
Speaker 1: And then during two thousand fifteen, when a lot of
Speaker 1: us were paying attention to it because of the election
Speaker 1: and a lot was happening on Twitter, I got back
Speaker 1: on and really just started observing. I wasn't creating content.
Speaker 1: I was just observing and I'm doing a lot of retweeting,
Speaker 1: which I still is probably the main thing I do.
Speaker 1: And I realized it was like a whole different world
Speaker 1: than the Twitter I used to know, and there was
Speaker 1: a different culture there now, and I really loved it.
Speaker 1: I was super into it, so I decided to try
Speaker 1: this as a thread. But threads are supposed to be
Speaker 1: pretty short. I mean, like if you need to write
Speaker 1: an essay, go like write a blog post or something.
Speaker 1: And this thread that I wrote, my very first one,
Speaker 1: is sixty three tweets, which is just so bad form.
Speaker 1: It's just like not I mean, you guys, know you're
Speaker 1: on Twitter, like at it makes you like tweet it
Speaker 1: and then you can add more, but like is sort
Speaker 1: of like the natural limit, and here it was sixty three.
Speaker 1: So that's just super obnoxious. I mean, I have an
Speaker 1: ego for sure, And I was very nervous that not
Speaker 1: that I was gonna get yelled at because I've been
Speaker 1: yelled at online before, but that I was going to
Speaker 1: be ashamed because I was like putting myself out there
Speaker 1: with sixty three tweets, and like what if no one
Speaker 1: even looked at it? Like what if it's just like
Speaker 1: got no reaction. That I was like super worried about.
Speaker 1: So I was like mentally trying to add up, like
Speaker 1: how fast can ideally sixty three tweets one at a
Speaker 1: time and get rid of this threat if I need
Speaker 1: to pretend it never happened. You said, you've written out
Speaker 1: your thoughts about abortion six months before. I don't remember
Speaker 1: exactly what it was, but I had looked up abortion statistics.
Speaker 1: It's like how many abortions are happening each year? So
Speaker 1: I must have read an article, maybe seeing something on
Speaker 1: Twitter that drove me to do that, so I was
Speaker 1: looking it up. I mean, maybe I was just arguing
Speaker 1: with someone I don't know, and I remember seeing the
Speaker 1: number and it was higher than I thought. It was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what number was in my head. It's
Speaker 1: not like there was one, but I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's that's more abortions than I would have guessed if
Speaker 1: I had just like guess. And so then I started
Speaker 1: trying to problem solve that, like, well, why is that
Speaker 1: never so high? Because of course I'm thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: there's birth control options out there, and it's not like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know, women don't even like to go
Speaker 1: get paps mars. We have to sort of like psychologically
Speaker 1: prepare for any kind of gyneological visit. We're not just
Speaker 1: like casually heading out over to get an abortion, like
Speaker 1: that's not a thing. So then I was like, so,
Speaker 1: what's happening there, and then it was just like this click.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I know why people wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 1: be on birth control because I have used every form
Speaker 1: of birth control and they have worked. I got to
Speaker 1: choose when I had my babies, which is amazing, and
Speaker 1: that's exactly what we want for people. But I did
Speaker 1: not like the side effects. I did not enjoy that.
Speaker 1: That's why I've tried every kind like trying to troubleshoot,
Speaker 1: trying to find something, and beyond the side effects, I
Speaker 1: found the maintenance so challenging as I had all these
Speaker 1: little kids. So you know, you've just had a baby.
Speaker 1: You need to get birth control. You got to go
Speaker 1: back to the doctor and get disappointment, have another exam,
Speaker 1: then again stand in line for prescription or maybe eventually
Speaker 1: I got I could get it mailed, you know, but
Speaker 1: you had to set that up, and then by the
Speaker 1: time you get it, it still doesn't It doesn't even
Speaker 1: take effect. I'm thinking of the pill doesn't even take
Speaker 1: effect for about a week. And if you forget or
Speaker 1: you mess up, you feel terrified, like, oh crap, what
Speaker 1: did I do? You know? How do I correct this?
Speaker 1: You're like online trying to figure out if it's okay,
Speaker 1: or if it's like a shot, which I've also done,
Speaker 1: You're having to go back every few months to get
Speaker 1: a new shot, and like remember when that is and
Speaker 1: are you getting child care for that? Are you taking
Speaker 1: out for work for that? You know, like are you
Speaker 1: having to make any other arrangements. It's just was I
Speaker 1: found it really really ch challenging, and I was I
Speaker 1: was in a place where I had insurance, right, like,
Speaker 1: I have the basics covered. It's not like I was
Speaker 1: even in Ah. I mean there there are times would
Speaker 1: would be even harder than when I had it, and
Speaker 1: I still found it really challenging. So for me, that's
Speaker 1: where I started going, oh, it's really hard. We make
Speaker 1: birth control so hard for women. And then of course
Speaker 1: my mind went to, will you know women aren't the
Speaker 1: only ones here, men? Men are also involved in this equation,
Speaker 1: you know what's happening there, And that's when I started
Speaker 1: thinking about condoms and vasectomies, but specifically condoms, and that
Speaker 1: they're kind of the opposite of women's birth control, meaning
Speaker 1: they're easily accessible, no doctor's appointment required, they're super affordable,
Speaker 1: you can usually get them free. In fact, every state
Speaker 1: has a free condom program, you don't need to take
Speaker 1: them if when you're not having sex, you don't need
Speaker 1: to use a condom when you're not having sex, which
Speaker 1: for women's birth control, you do have to maintain every day.
Speaker 1: They're available seven. They work instantly there like everything women's
Speaker 1: birth control isn't and then no side effects, zero side effects.
Speaker 1: And if you do need a troubleshoot, like say you
Speaker 1: have a latex allergy, you don't need to go to
Speaker 1: the doctor for that, you can just troubleshoot. You just
Speaker 1: get another brand. And as all of this was like
Speaker 1: sorting out in my head and Mike I was getting angry. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm writing all this down. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: write all this down. I didn't know it would be
Speaker 1: necessarily new ideas to anyone. Maybe maybe there were already
Speaker 1: ask things all about this. I don't know. I was
Speaker 1: just sort of writing it down for me to kind
Speaker 1: of get out my frustration on WHOA, here's like the
Speaker 1: easiest birth control in the world, and yet we've decided
Speaker 1: as a culture, well, we can't ask men to wear condoms,
Speaker 1: you know, that's just too much to ask. But we're
Speaker 1: gonna ask women to do all this headache work, all
Speaker 1: these side effects, all this stuff, and we don't hesitate
Speaker 1: to do that. We start girls on birth control is
Speaker 1: you know, as soon as they hit puberty in many cases,
Speaker 1: and they're on it for decades, and we don't hesitate
Speaker 1: to do that. But we can't ask a man to
Speaker 1: wear a condom for a few minutes Like that made
Speaker 1: me angry. And then I wrote it all down on
Speaker 1: and then I wasn't sure where to share it because
Speaker 1: I've been doing design mom forever and it was like,
Speaker 1: is it a design mom post? I just wasn't sure
Speaker 1: where to put it, and then decided Twitter and rewrote
Speaker 1: it as a Twitter threat. You're perhaps one of the
Speaker 1: most unlikely people to write your book ejaculate your sponsibly.
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons people might think you were
Speaker 1: unlikely is because you're Mormon. How has this book, if
Speaker 1: at all, impacted your relationship with the church, with your
Speaker 1: friends in the church, with your family. So I think
Speaker 1: I have to start with a couple of things. One
Speaker 1: is for sure, there's assumptions about Mormons that I'm very
Speaker 1: well aware of. You're gonna assume they're gonna be a Republican.
Speaker 1: You're gonna assume they're gonna be anti abortion. You're gonna
Speaker 1: assume they probably don't swear. Certainly, they don't drink alcohol,
Speaker 1: they don't drink coffee your tea. Like, these are just assumptions,
Speaker 1: and a lot more gonna be safe assumptions. I mean,
Speaker 1: you taught is mostly Republican. You taught the seat of Mormonism. Um,
Speaker 1: you can only buy alcohol in certain stores and in
Speaker 1: certain hours on certain days. That some of this stuff
Speaker 1: is real, But you always have to remember there I
Speaker 1: think a last count twelve millions, maybe sixteen million, more, Like,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of Mormons in the world, so everyone's
Speaker 1: not going to be the same if you have that
Speaker 1: many people. And there are shockingly way more Democrats in
Speaker 1: Utah than anyone would guess, you know, and and more
Speaker 1: as the years go by. To Um, the younger generations
Speaker 1: are skewing, of course, less and less conservative as we know.
Speaker 1: So there are plenty of people in the Mormon Church
Speaker 1: that feel that I'm warmoning incorrectly and are happy to
Speaker 1: yell at me about that. But I get just as
Speaker 1: many like thank you. I I'm so grateful that there's
Speaker 1: so man in my community that's saying these things. It
Speaker 1: makes me feel more at home. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: tell a story about the newspaper coverage of the book
Speaker 1: in Utah, which I think is very illustrative. Um. So,
Speaker 1: there's two major newspapers in Utah. Ones called the Salic
Speaker 1: Tribune and one's called the Desert News. The Desert News
Speaker 1: is owned by the Mormon Church, so both of them
Speaker 1: have talked about the book. The Slic Tribune had invited
Speaker 1: me onto their podcast us and done some great articles,
Speaker 1: and then someone told me, Hey, I saw the book
Speaker 1: in Desert News. I was like, amazing because I didn't
Speaker 1: even I didn't expect the church to cover it at all.
Speaker 1: And I should say the church, our own newspaper, is
Speaker 1: not like the church is writing all the articles. But
Speaker 1: they didn't. But they own the newspaper anyway. So I've
Speaker 1: looked it up and I don't see the title, and
Speaker 1: I realized they've written a lovely positive review but haven't
Speaker 1: used the title. It was just like a little bit
Speaker 1: too much. So they linked to the book they they
Speaker 1: mentioned they say, oh and with this memorable titler, they
Speaker 1: say something about the title, but they don't actually say
Speaker 1: exactly response, and I thought that's about right, Like there's
Speaker 1: I mean, some woman's are fine with it and others
Speaker 1: are just like it's just a little too uncomfortable for them.
Speaker 1: So that's fine. But it has not risked my relationships,
Speaker 1: and certainly in my own family and among my siblings
Speaker 1: that I'm one of eight, i am the only practicing
Speaker 1: Mormon at this point five six years ago. Everyone was practicing,
Speaker 1: but they've loved the church and so so they're not
Speaker 1: troubled by it at all. But honestly, even when a
Speaker 1: Mormon wants to argue with me about it, I'll say,
Speaker 1: or like sometimes I'll get on Twitter and say you
Speaker 1: should be excommunicated, or you know, like they love to
Speaker 1: threaten excommunication. But anyway, um, I'll say, super, please point
Speaker 1: out in the thread what is against Mormon doctrine. Just
Speaker 1: find me the tweet, find me the idea, because there's
Speaker 1: nothing there. It's actually a very Mormon idea that men
Speaker 1: should act responsibly, Like there's nothing weird about that in
Speaker 1: our religion. You had mentioned that one of the unfortunate
Speaker 1: byproducts of writing this book is that your kids get
Speaker 1: confronted about it and are asked to sort of defend
Speaker 1: the premise of the book. How is that unfolded? It's
Speaker 1: a funny thing. It comes when I don't expect it
Speaker 1: um and I'll I only hear about it after the fact,
Speaker 1: after my kids have already dealt with it, right, I mean, obviously,
Speaker 1: if I'm there, it's it's not happening. It'll be like
Speaker 1: a cousin or a you know, cousin in law, or
Speaker 1: it'll be someone on campus, because I know these are
Speaker 1: older kids that are going to school and going to
Speaker 1: college that clearly has thought about it, has read it,
Speaker 1: but doesn't dare get on Twitter to actually engage with me,
Speaker 1: because like, I'm there and I'm pretty easy to get
Speaker 1: a hold of, you know, and so I feel more
Speaker 1: comfortable attacking, you know, a teenager that's a college or whatever,
Speaker 1: and you know, making them defend it. And I feel
Speaker 1: like the ones that I know in real life, I
Speaker 1: don't want to embarrass, so I'm not gonna name names,
Speaker 1: but it is freshening to me, Like my kids didn't
Speaker 1: write this, and they're great at defending it, but they
Speaker 1: didn't write this. And I'm very accessible. So if you're
Speaker 1: arguing with my kids instead of me, that's just because
Speaker 1: you're scared of me. But yeah, I mean the other
Speaker 1: side of this. You have six kids, so I would
Speaker 1: imagine that they each have a very different relationship with
Speaker 1: your work than each other. Right, I'm sure they don't
Speaker 1: all react the same. How have you managed that? The
Speaker 1: younger kids, they've been in France for three years and
Speaker 1: haven't had to really face this, right, I mean I
Speaker 1: wrote the threat four years ago and they were young
Speaker 1: enough that it didn't matter that year in California where
Speaker 1: it was out. Um, so it's really the older kids
Speaker 1: have had to face it and they get to decide.
Speaker 1: My son Ralph, he sometimes gets really irritated when he
Speaker 1: sees people attacking me on Twitter, Like he'll get more
Speaker 1: stressed out about than I do necessarily, and so he'll
Speaker 1: get on and he might argue with people. My daughter Maud,
Speaker 1: who is so good at Twitter and like like loves
Speaker 1: like she always makes me laugh, but I never see
Speaker 1: her argue with someone on Twitter, and I would never
Speaker 1: expect that ever, Like, so it's kind of like, what's
Speaker 1: your personality? Like I enjoy arguing with people on Twitter.
Speaker 1: It's something I found out, Like, actually I like this,
Speaker 1: this is fun. But but I don't expect that of
Speaker 1: my kids, and if and when Ralph does, I don't
Speaker 1: think he enjoys it. I think he it's just feels
Speaker 1: compelled to defend his mom. And I'll have to say,
Speaker 1: you are welcome to do this if you're having fun,
Speaker 1: but please I'm fine, Like, do not like you have
Speaker 1: to do this. I really am. I'm safe, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's all good. It's the same with my siblings though,
Speaker 1: Like I have a brother named Jared. He will soonimes
Speaker 1: get on on Twitter and yell at people like on
Speaker 1: my behalf like he'll stress him out to like his
Speaker 1: sisters being attacked. But my other siblings don't necessarily care.
Speaker 1: If they do notice, I haven't seen him on on
Speaker 1: on Twitter, so it's more just like, what's your personality?
Speaker 1: How do you want to react to it? Many people
Speaker 1: would think it was impossible to even consider moving across
Speaker 1: the world with six kids. Why did you think it
Speaker 1: was possible? We moved to New York with two kids,
Speaker 1: had three more kids in New York, and then we
Speaker 1: did our first big move to Colorado from New York
Speaker 1: after eight years there. And I guess in my head
Speaker 1: a move as a move as a move, you know,
Speaker 1: like I had moved across town before. I'm thinking in
Speaker 1: New York, you know, moving from one apartment to another.
Speaker 1: I'd moved across the country. They were both really really hard,
Speaker 1: Like it's just really hard to do anything with little kids.
Speaker 1: So I knew I wanted a big family. I had
Speaker 1: come from a big family. My husband's also from a
Speaker 1: big family. Were both one of eight. I wanted a
Speaker 1: big family. But I didn't want that to hold me back,
Speaker 1: Like we didn't hesitate moving to New York when we
Speaker 1: have these two little kids, and I was like eight
Speaker 1: months pregnant. I was like, people do things with kids,
Speaker 1: People have kids all over the world. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: do what I want to do. Like I just didn't
Speaker 1: want to hold me back, and was you know, I
Speaker 1: was willing to do the work to move across the
Speaker 1: country or move across the world, or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1: And it is so different. It's so funny, like so
Speaker 1: our youngest was nine months old when we moved to
Speaker 1: France the first time, and then when we moved to
Speaker 1: France this time, our youngest was nine years old, you know,
Speaker 1: like it was a completely different, different thing. And and
Speaker 1: I look back, like I we we took so many trips,
Speaker 1: we did so much and these kids were little. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what were we thinking? Because I was insane, but I
Speaker 1: wanted to travel. I wanted to see Rome, I wanted
Speaker 1: to see Norway, like and I've got all these kids,
Speaker 1: so I guess we're taking the kids to Norway. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I just I feel like I
Speaker 1: was wanting to do what I wanted to do and
Speaker 1: we can fit family life around that, and not just me,
Speaker 1: I mean the family wants to do what the family
Speaker 1: wants to do and we're all working around that. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just want that. I knew it was
Speaker 1: hard to do that stuff, but it was like, well,
Speaker 1: it's hard to be home with the kids too. It's
Speaker 1: just hard to have kids. So should we have a
Speaker 1: hard time in New York? Should we have a hard
Speaker 1: time in Norway? Should we have a hard time in
Speaker 1: fron Where do we want to have a hard time
Speaker 1: with the kids today? And now a quick break? So, Gabby,
Speaker 1: along this journey you've had, and it really has been
Speaker 1: quite a journey, and I think in many ways your
Speaker 1: story is so different than many of our other guests
Speaker 1: because your personal and professional lives are so intertwined, and
Speaker 1: they've always been so intertwined. A big part of that,
Speaker 1: or a main character in this has been your husband.
Speaker 1: I have seen him at your conferences. He's incredibly supportive.
Speaker 1: What has your relationship been, Like, I mean, I love
Speaker 1: being married. He's you know, he's my favorite person in
Speaker 1: the world for sure. We've never really known adult life
Speaker 1: without each other, right, Like, So I was twenty one
Speaker 1: and he was twenty two when we got married, which
Speaker 1: is very young. I was twenty three when we had
Speaker 1: our first baby. He was twenty four. We haven't really
Speaker 1: known adult life without kids. We haven't really known adult
Speaker 1: life without each other, And so I don't really have
Speaker 1: anything to compare it to, right, Like, I mean, I don't.
Speaker 1: I didn't have a the twenties that you see on
Speaker 1: TV where you're like, you know, falling in love and
Speaker 1: breaking up and you know, moving to the city and
Speaker 1: doing whatever. Like we moved to the city in our twenties.
Speaker 1: We moved to New York, but we had two kids
Speaker 1: and a third was born like a couple of weeks later,
Speaker 1: like like it was just like a different world. But
Speaker 1: he's been amazing, So really early on, like really early
Speaker 1: on in our marriage, and I mean with in our parentshood,
Speaker 1: I should say, we had this idea, like certainly the
Speaker 1: culture in Utah was like the mom stays home, and
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so I'm supposed to stay home
Speaker 1: with the kids, and I'm like miserable, just miserable. And
Speaker 1: I remember saying to him, Hey, you know when you
Speaker 1: watch the kids and you're like so worn out at it,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh my gosh, it's so we're out
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad for a break when it's done. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that too, all of time, all day.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that I'm the mom. It's just as
Speaker 1: hard for me. I promised, like I it's so hard,
Speaker 1: and he just like got it. He didn't try and
Speaker 1: argue or whatever. He's like, oh okay, like it hadn't
Speaker 1: occurred to him until someone told them, because how I
Speaker 1: mean it had occurred to me either. And we started
Speaker 1: splitting the day. So we're both entrepreneurs and I would
Speaker 1: do I mean, like I had a little design business
Speaker 1: and he had the little language learning business, and I
Speaker 1: would work from like nine to one and then we'd
Speaker 1: have lunch and then he'd work from like two to
Speaker 1: six or some version of that, and we just started
Speaker 1: splaying the day and just like we couldn't afford child cares,
Speaker 1: so we were, you know, we'd take care of the
Speaker 1: kids on our time off and it was only we'd
Speaker 1: only get these concentrated few hours and then we could
Speaker 1: always try and work again and in the evening if
Speaker 1: the kids were asleep, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But we just said, okay, we're just gonna share this
Speaker 1: and that was great. And then there were times where
Speaker 1: we couldn't do that, Like he went back to school.
Speaker 1: He got two masters and a PhD at Columbia. This
Speaker 1: was like intense stuff. When we're living in New York.
Speaker 1: We needed money. I'm you know, working full time. I mean,
Speaker 1: there have been times where we couldn't split the day
Speaker 1: the way we wanted to, but we were always aiming
Speaker 1: for that and as soon as we could, we'd get
Speaker 1: back there. And so when he finished his PhD, I
Speaker 1: had started design mom. Like we you know, we both
Speaker 1: kind of got to this good place at the same time,
Speaker 1: and since then we have both worked at home and
Speaker 1: just been able to share everything, you know. So this
Speaker 1: is before like remote work he got hired when we
Speaker 1: were in New York, he got hired by a d
Speaker 1: C company to work remotely, and then we worked for
Speaker 1: them in Colorado, worked for them in France, and then
Speaker 1: I had against our design mom and it was taking off.
Speaker 1: So we had some years where we couldn't share it,
Speaker 1: but then as soon as we could again, we started
Speaker 1: sharing it. And we've just shared parenting and the workload
Speaker 1: since then. I know, not everyone can do it. We
Speaker 1: were always aiming for that, like once we understood, like
Speaker 1: that's what we needed, like that's what we were aiming for,
Speaker 1: and when anyone asked me for advice and like how
Speaker 1: to manage things. What saved us is flexible schedules, meaning
Speaker 1: like we didn't have to be in an office from
Speaker 1: eight to five or or any version of that. I
Speaker 1: had so much work, He had so much work, but
Speaker 1: we could fit it in where we could fit it in.
Speaker 1: So if someone needed to get to the school for
Speaker 1: a play or get to a doctor's appointment for something like,
Speaker 1: we never had to take off work. We never had
Speaker 1: to get permission. That is huge, and sometimes in a
Speaker 1: couple you maybe have one of those, and that's that's amazing.
Speaker 1: If you can get two of them. I mean, that's amazing.
Speaker 1: And I know so many people went to work remotely
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, and I know that's changing, people are
Speaker 1: being drawn back. But I just want to tell people, like,
Speaker 1: just demand it if you can, especially when the kids
Speaker 1: are little, especially when the kids like those years when
Speaker 1: the kids are little. If you have flexible schedules, you
Speaker 1: really can maintain or even grow a career if you
Speaker 1: have a truly flexible schedule. If you don't, it's impossible.
Speaker 1: Maintenance is the best I feel like you can do
Speaker 1: if you do not have him a flexible schedule. So
Speaker 1: if you've got a work situation where it would work
Speaker 1: remotely in any way, try to like prove it demanded,
Speaker 1: show okay, how it's better or whatever, because it just
Speaker 1: makes all the difference. At least for me it did.
Speaker 1: And to have both of us, that's huge. But Ben
Speaker 1: is amazing. He's been super supportive. He's really great. He'll
Speaker 1: he'll make like today he came down and he's like,
Speaker 1: I made a testimonial about vasectomies because it's Vasectomies World
Speaker 1: v Sectomy Day, and so he post this like testimonial
Speaker 1: about how awesome his vasectomy was and like how fast
Speaker 1: he healed and how great it's been. And I mean,
Speaker 1: he's just the best, and he like gets it, and
Speaker 1: he's he's just such a good cheerleader for what I'm
Speaker 1: working on. And I certainly couldn't have had a big
Speaker 1: family without a partner that was interested in that. But
Speaker 1: he's just been he just gets it, and he he
Speaker 1: understands what the work of parenting is. Like, he gets it.
Speaker 1: I don't have to explain it to him. I don't know.
Speaker 1: He's terrific. And I'm sure part of that is like
Speaker 1: we're home all the time. We've been home all the time.
Speaker 1: He can see what renting is. And I should also
Speaker 1: be clear, like we do lots of gendered stuff. He
Speaker 1: always gets the gas. I end up doing the laundry,
Speaker 1: Like there's stuff we do that's gendered. I don't mean
Speaker 1: to say we split everything like exactly fifty fifty, but
Speaker 1: in general, the workload of the house, the workload of parenting,
Speaker 1: we've just always shared it. Yeah, but you're such a
Speaker 1: creative person and you must always kind of be thinking
Speaker 1: about what's next, Like what is your next creative pursuit?
Speaker 1: Ben and I actually signed a contract for a parenting
Speaker 1: book even before the abortion book, and then the abortion
Speaker 1: books sort of like it felt the more timely things
Speaker 1: with the same publisher, and they're like, actually, let's do
Speaker 1: the abortion book first, because it's just like, well, you
Speaker 1: have seen the news anyways, so so we'd like to
Speaker 1: do the parenting book. I'm also were like still deep
Speaker 1: in renovations, not in the house we're living in, but
Speaker 1: the house in our backyard. And then there's like a
Speaker 1: little cottage. So that's really fun for us. It's very
Speaker 1: creative work. I love it. And then I keep feeling
Speaker 1: like so in college and when I studied graphic design,
Speaker 1: my goal was to be a textile designer. I had
Speaker 1: this like I want to like walk into a stranger's
Speaker 1: house someday and like, hey, I designed you know those
Speaker 1: curtains or those sheets or I don't know, Like I
Speaker 1: love that whole idea and I love textiles and I
Speaker 1: loved all of it, and I have never done that.
Speaker 1: I mean, like my senior project was like, here's my
Speaker 1: collection of fabrics, and then like I've never Actually I'm
Speaker 1: like that would be a creative for suit I would
Speaker 1: love to do, which has nothing to do with anything
Speaker 1: else here? But and then I I feel like I
Speaker 1: pitched a new book just casually to my publisher, Like
Speaker 1: what if winning more on menopause? How about a book
Speaker 1: of you know, like or hey, how about these essays?
Speaker 1: Or Twitter is going away? Could I compile all the
Speaker 1: threads I've written into it book. I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm constantly writing. Um. But yeah. When I think of
Speaker 1: creative resuits, it's funny because my mind doesn't go to
Speaker 1: writing necessarily. It always goes to like design stuff. Do
Speaker 1: you want to go to the speed around now? Yes? Okay, Gabby?
Speaker 1: What podcast are you listening to other than ours? Of course?
Speaker 1: Of course listeners? And I really love Maintenance Face and
Speaker 1: anything Michael Hobbs does. I love Michael Hobbs. What is
Speaker 1: your morning routine? Okay? So we get up, drive the
Speaker 1: kids to school. If it's cold, sometimes I want to walk,
Speaker 1: and then I often go do something renovation e in
Speaker 1: the morning, like before I've showered, put on my work
Speaker 1: and do something like dusty and gross, then take my
Speaker 1: shower and then um, then I'm on my laptop for
Speaker 1: too many hours and phone and anyway, I am long
Speaker 1: past morning. Now you travel a lot. What do you
Speaker 1: do when you're on a plane. I will try to
Speaker 1: sleep as much as I can, and if not that,
Speaker 1: I play a lot of Sudoku or like solitaire, you know,
Speaker 1: just like the dumbest games. Who leaves You Star Strick.
Speaker 1: II still adore Martha Stewart, which I know, like we
Speaker 1: don't see her in the news as much, and I've
Speaker 1: gotten to meet her. I've gone an interviewer. I think
Speaker 1: she's so freaking brilliant. She's just amazing. I love her
Speaker 1: so much. Where will you go on your next vacation?
Speaker 1: I want to go back to Italy, Like there's just
Speaker 1: I've been a lot of times, but there's always more
Speaker 1: and I love it and guys, the food and the
Speaker 1: gelatto and I to come on like it's just never
Speaker 1: a bad idea. What's your favorite beverage? Um? I love
Speaker 1: root beer. I'm thinking of it because I miss I
Speaker 1: can't get it here? Is that the most Mormon answer?
Speaker 1: I love route beer and I want like a root
Speaker 1: beer float, like that's what I want, Like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: the best when I can't have root beer. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: I need a fancier drink, I'll do lime Ebidders, which
Speaker 1: someone taught me when we were in Australia, and I
Speaker 1: love it so much and it was like, it sounds fancy,
Speaker 1: but it's safe, safe for non drinkers. Thank you so much, Gab.
Speaker 1: Thank you so fun to see your face. Is so
Speaker 1: fun to talk to you miss being with you in person.
Speaker 1: A mean, that was so much fun to have Gabby on.
Speaker 1: I mean, we both have our own individual friendships with her,
Speaker 1: and I think she's inspired both of us in different ways.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, there's just something so energizing about
Speaker 1: listening to her. She is one of the most magical
Speaker 1: people I've ever met. I think it's hard to describe,
Speaker 1: but the first time you're in a room with Gabby,
Speaker 1: she's warm, she's real, and she's curious. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, that's the thing about Gabby is she's always learning. Like,
Speaker 1: in some ways I'm surprised she wrote this wildly global
Speaker 1: viral thread about abortion, and then in other ways, I
Speaker 1: am completely not surprised that she did this, because she's
Speaker 1: just always trying new things and voicing her opinion. And
Speaker 1: I hope it gives other women out there the conviction
Speaker 1: to try things and to try them publicly. Well, one
Speaker 1: of the special things about Gabby is her confidence. I mean,
Speaker 1: if every woman had the confidence Gabby has, the world
Speaker 1: would be an entirely different place. That's right. I also
Speaker 1: think Amy, what's so wild is like she didn't have
Speaker 1: a wild sex life that led to this book, right,
Speaker 1: Like she's kind of writing the book for something she
Speaker 1: hasn't even experienced, and it almost lends kind of more credibility,
Speaker 1: whereas normally you would think that lends less credibility. It
Speaker 1: almost makes her more of an authority there. It's just
Speaker 1: there's something about her that makes you stop and listen.
Speaker 1: And I know you you recently when you you worked
Speaker 1: with her recently on the last ALT summit, and you
Speaker 1: said something to me about how calm she is no
Speaker 1: matter what is going on, she has always calm, Like
Speaker 1: I'm over here, like in the corner of freaking out
Speaker 1: about something. I mean, we're putting on a thousand person
Speaker 1: conference in New York and Gaby is just like it's fine,
Speaker 1: it's okay, and always yeah, I'm just it was very remarkable,
Speaker 1: but it is interesting, Sam, like, no, she didn't have
Speaker 1: this wild sex life, but the concerns about contraception and
Speaker 1: our ability to decide when we want to have children
Speaker 1: remain with us long after we become mothers. And I think,
Speaker 1: like that's one of the reasons I love her threats
Speaker 1: so much, and even in talking to her today about it,
Speaker 1: it's like, dealing with birth control is something we deal
Speaker 1: with until we can't bear children anymore, right, unless our
Speaker 1: partner has a vasectomy or you know, like and I
Speaker 1: feel like this abortion debate gets cabined into this idea
Speaker 1: that it isn't something that impacts mothers, but it impacts
Speaker 1: mothers so much. But see, this is the thing, right,
Speaker 1: And this is what was interesting and tricky about this
Speaker 1: interview is like we could have done the entire interview
Speaker 1: talking about the book, right because it is so controversial,
Speaker 1: there's so much to stay around it. But really, the
Speaker 1: next time we talk to Gabby, it definitely won't be
Speaker 1: on this topic because she goes from topic to topic
Speaker 1: and she's just as passionate and curious about each one.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why I love this interview so
Speaker 1: much too, because we really got to the heart of
Speaker 1: her story. And you know, most of her interviews are
Speaker 1: about the topics, and I think one of the really
Speaker 1: fascinating things is just how she arrived here. Absolutely. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is one of the things when I think about
Speaker 1: Gabby that I always think is that I hope when
Speaker 1: my four daughters grow up they have the confidence and
Speaker 1: warmth that she has. Thanks for listening to What's Her
Speaker 1: Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it if
Speaker 1: you leave her review wherever you get your podcast, and
Speaker 1: of course connect with us on social media at What's
Speaker 1: Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
Speaker 1: is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
Speaker 1: dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
Speaker 1: park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy
Speaker 1: Parra and our male perspective, Blue Burns