1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Maria Nohosa from Latino USA, so you might know. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: I also co host an award winning political podcast. It's 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: called In the Thick, and recently on In the Thick, 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: we featured a conversation with two of the reporters who 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: worked on a three part investigation called After Ayotsi Napa. 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: It aired on the Reveal podcast. Part of that series 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: also appears on the Latino USA podcast feed. So think 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: of this In the Thick episode as a compliment to 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: what we have already broadcast. So enjoy and don't forget 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: to subscribe to In the Thick. Wherever you get your podcasts. 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: On impunity and injustice is fabricated. It's made in the 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: factory of the government. You can see that. You can 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: see those mechanisms and you can dismantle them if you 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: have the political will. 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: Hey, ma'am from the Duro Media and PRX, this is 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: In the Thick, a podcast about politics, race and culture. 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Nkosa and I'm joining us from Northern California. 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: Is an Ayanci d Escortees, senior reporter and producer with 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: Reveal and Ayanci Welcome to the show. 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: Maria and joining us from the liberated territory of Brooklyn, 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: New York. Kate Doyle, who's a senior analyst at the 23 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: National Security Archive, what's up. What's up? Kate? 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: Thank you? 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 4: Maria. 26 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 2: All good. 27 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: So remember we're still all recording from home, so who 28 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: knows what you might hear in the background. Cats, dogs, sirens, lawnmowers, snowblowers, snowmobiles, yes, 29 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: snowmobiles like sleds. 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 5: I could like house meat in where I'm recording right now. 31 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 5: It's so cold. 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that we're taking a moment to kind 33 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: of be lighthearted and laugh because we're actually talking about 34 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: something that is really sad and a part of Mexican history, 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: American history, this Hemispherre's history. We're going to talk about 36 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: the forty three students who disappeared in Iuila Guerrero in Mexico. 37 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: It was twenty fourteen. They were students from Ayotzinapa Rural 38 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: Teachers College and they were headed up to a protest 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: in Mexico City when they were ambushed by police and 40 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: other gunmen. Some of the students survived, but those forty 41 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: three students have never been seen or heard from. Again, 42 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: it's a case that has really had a huge impact 43 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: on Mexico and abroad, and it also shed light on 44 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: the deep corruption within the Mexican government, and an Ioncu 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: and Kate have both been reporting and producing this new 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: three part series from Reveal on the case. It's called 47 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: After Ayotz Napa. And before we get into the reporting, 48 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: which was incredible, well, thank you so much for your 49 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: diligence and for bringing this story to the world. But 50 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: we like to do a kind of reality check here 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: on in the Fix. So how are you doing, like emotionally, 52 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: what are you feeling now that the series is out 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: and kind of what is your emotional place as a 54 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: journalist right now? And aencie, let's start with you. 55 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: Hi, media. That's actually a hard question. On the one hand, 56 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: once you've been through this rodeo enough, there are those 57 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: two days after the radio baby is out in the 58 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 3: world that is like a total kind of high and 59 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: just literally feeling and then slowly kind of a sense 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: of what we've called the postpartum begins, right when you 61 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: start to feel like emptiness and you know, we put 62 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: so much into this and you are expecting like this 63 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: huge splash and like thanks to you guys who broadcast us. 64 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: But it's hard to get people to listen, and I 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 3: think that continues to be a sense of like, how 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: do we get people to listen? 67 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Kate almosts how are you. 68 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: Be in Madie? I said, of course, I have the 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: same kind of after production feelings a little bit as 70 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: an Aanci, but mainly I would say for me establishing 71 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: these relationships. However, fleeting to report this story, which did 72 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: happen over the course of two years, so this wasn't 73 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: something where we dropped in and left a month later 74 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: with our story under our arm. It does mean that 75 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,559 Speaker 2: there will be I think a kind of continuum of 76 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: being in touch with a lot of the people that 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: you heard on the podcast. Personally, I investigate human rights atrocities. 78 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to continue working with the lawyers for the 79 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: families of those forty three students in trying to open 80 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: this case up and find more evidence. And so I think, 81 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 2: you know, there's a feeling of pride that we were 82 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: able to put something out there and hopefully reach some 83 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: ears that may not have ever even heard of the 84 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: case before. And nevermind kind of the nuances explored in 85 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: the story but also a sense that you know, we 86 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: I've put something out there, but the case continues, the 87 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: investigation continues, and the families continue to call for their boys, 88 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: their sons. 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I don't think I've talked about this 90 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: on this show because it's kind of so particular. But okay, 91 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: so let me just try and back up. So in 92 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: Mexico there's a very active student and teachers movement, like 93 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: the unions, the student unions and the educational unions and 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: the teachers' unions. All of this is very political, and 95 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: going to a demonstration in Mexico City is kind of 96 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: par for the course. I mean, it happens all the time. 97 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: And you know, to have a demonstration in Mexico City, 98 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: that's like, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand, It 99 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: happens quite a bit. These students were actually making their 100 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: way to take part in an anniversary to mark the 101 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight student massacre that happened at La de Lorco. Now, 102 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: what you don't know is that kind of my beginnings 103 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: in journalism are sparked from reading Elena Ponatauska's book called 104 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: and reading that book, which is a journalistic take a 105 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: factual take on what happened is what really kind of 106 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: made a pivot in my life to say, like, whoa, 107 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: wait a second, I think I want to do what 108 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: she's doing. I'm a Mexican journalist of Polish descent. Why 109 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: am I saying this? Because the disappearance of the forty 110 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: three yels Quarentai trees has this kind of deep residual 111 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: impact that we can't even measure exactly, and I think 112 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: both of you are a part of that definitely, And 113 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: so again, thank you so much. 114 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, and thanks for sharing that, Marya. 115 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 4: And I think when we heard about the series, you know, 116 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 4: this is one of those events, those strategies that's so 117 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 4: resonated with our community. I'm actually listening to the two 118 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 4: reporters saying does it have impact? Because it could quickly disappear, right, 119 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: And you brought something back that, in the scheme of everything, 120 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 4: could have disappeared in our consciousness. And it was a 121 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 4: really good like gut check as a journalist. You know, 122 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 4: it wasn't the tenth anniversary, it wasn't like twenty years. 123 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 4: It was like, we want to do this, and it 124 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 4: reminded me of all those moments, you know, in twenty fourteen, 125 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 4: where it was so central in the conversation, you know, 126 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 4: and we were talking about it at Futhlutal Media and 127 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 4: saying we got to do things. So that's the temperature 128 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 4: check as a journalist. For me, it's like it was 129 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 4: a good gut check and it was really important. So, 130 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 4: you know, thank you for sharing that. And since the 131 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 4: disappearance of the students, you know, only the remains of 132 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 4: three students have been found, and we learned that very 133 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 4: early on the parents did not trust the government's account 134 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 4: of what happened the night they disappeared, which doesn't surprise Maria, 135 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 4: because you and I have talked about the lack of 136 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 4: trust with Mexican authorities sort of being the normal in 137 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: the country. 138 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: I would say now in lack of trust of US 139 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: authorities and their narratives too, right, exactly. 140 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 4: So in the series, we hear from Nico Barrera, who's 141 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,119 Speaker 4: one of the studentudents who survived the ambush and whose 142 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 4: name has been changed for his protection. We're going to 143 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 4: play a bit of the recounting of the events by Nico, 144 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: and we want to give a warning to listeners that 145 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 4: what you're about to hear might be hard to listen to, 146 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 4: So let's take a listen. 147 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 6: One of our compas try to get out and do 148 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 6: something to move the police cars, and that's when the 149 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 6: first one of us was shot. 150 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 7: I I saw my Compagno on the ground, lying in 151 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 7: a pool of flood, convulsing, and that the police just 152 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 7: never stopped shooting. 153 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: Nico throws himself on the floor, dodging shards of glass 154 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 3: and bullets. He inches towards the back of the bus. 155 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 6: I was taking cover near a broken window. It was 156 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 6: totally busted, but I could peek through. I saw two 157 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 6: cops pointing at us, and then I saw a bunch 158 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 6: of compas. They had already been arrested, but they continued 159 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 6: to shoot, and all of us continued to shout, we. 160 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 3: Are students, we are not armed. 161 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 4: So Kate, the parents of the missing students actually called 162 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 4: on you right personally to help with investigation. From your perspective, 163 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 4: you know, hearing Nico's account, well, as you're investigating these stories, 164 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 4: what was the process like to sort of bring this 165 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 4: out into the open a little bit more? 166 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 2: It was obviously, first and foremost heart wrenching, because very 167 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: soon after the lawyers for the families contacted me, I 168 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: started to meet some of the families, and then on 169 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 2: IANC and I began to report the story apart from 170 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: my work as an investigator for my own organization, the 171 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: National Security Archive, and then we really spent a lot 172 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: of time with mothers, fathers, and other family members. So 173 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: first there was this kind of very human part of 174 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: our experience, and then very quickly in the case, you 175 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: realize that although the Mexican government insisted from day one 176 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: that this crime was the result of local corrupt police 177 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: and sort of criminal thugs that operated in Iguala, very quickly, 178 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: both the lawyers, the new investigation that came in after 179 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: the government changed in twenty eighteen, and we as reporters 180 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: saw that this was a much wider conspiracy, both the 181 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: crime itself and of course the extensive cover up that 182 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: happened afterwards. So that's what we had to kind of 183 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: wrap our minds around as we began to report on 184 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 2: this case. 185 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 4: And talking about the process of how do you approach 186 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: these stories ethically and safely as well when you're dealing 187 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: with the emotions and so what are your thoughts. 188 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: I'm actually quite glad that Madia I brought up nineteen 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 3: sixty eight, because that's a little bit what brought Kate 190 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 3: and I together in two thousand and eight to do 191 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: a kind of oral history on that once the archives 192 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: were open in two thousand. Kate had kind of a 193 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: big finger in that transparency, and we had worked together 194 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 3: in some capacity ten years ago, and you know, you 195 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: have the daily grind reporting that happens at our shops, 196 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: and then you have people like Kate at the Archive 197 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 3: who are in it for the long game and the marathon. 198 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 7: Right. 199 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 3: So when I actually came to reveal, I pitched that 200 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: as a story when I was getting hired that I 201 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: would cover and shortly after that Kate basically reached out 202 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 3: looking for what to do, how to tell the story 203 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 3: in a different way. And I think just working with her, 204 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 3: I keep on telling her that she makes this work 205 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 3: feel sacred because she works in testimonia, in the power 206 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 3: of the testimony versus us that we're trained to look 207 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 3: at things in terms of good tape and bad tape, 208 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 3: and how are we going to use this and how's 209 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: that going to create an arc? And just shifting my 210 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: paradigm a little bit to that perspective of like when 211 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: you ask someone to tell their story, what are you 212 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: asking them for and why are you asking them for? 213 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 3: So that led to a different kind of reporting, which 214 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: in this case would not have been possible without John Gibbler. 215 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 3: So in the early days, you know, when people didn't 216 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: know what happened, there are many journalists, but the three 217 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: that we talked to and that had a big protagonism 218 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 3: in it were John Gibbler, Marcella Turati, and Bitpihemanis, and 219 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: they were from the city. There was a lot of 220 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: local journalism obviously as well. And John Gibbler basically documented 221 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: in the week after the attack every single testimony from 222 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 3: every survivor, from every parent that he could and those 223 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: are the tapes that make up the bulk of that 224 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: first hour. So they were done in collaboration with him 225 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: and like with complete awareness and with consent on the 226 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: part of the boys that we featured, But was definitely 227 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: a process that was thoughtful and slow, and the voiceover elements, 228 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't just good tape, which was a 229 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 3: shift for me frankly, and a positive one for journalism 230 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: and this journalism. 231 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I love the fact that you were kind 232 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: of open to doing that, right and as audio journalists. 233 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: We have to be prepared to kind of move with 234 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: the with the story. Y'all did a great job. So 235 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: the thing is is that what you all reveal, Okay, 236 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: that's the name of the show, is that there. 237 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 5: I like what you did there. 238 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: You saw that, yeah, right, is that there is mucha 239 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: corupcion in the Mexican government, like in all governments, okay, 240 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: but the level at which they attempted to cover up 241 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: the crime is pretty horrific. Remember this happened during the 242 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: administration of Enrique bo and it's under this administration that 243 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: we learned of quote verda historica or historic truth, where 244 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: Mexican officials basically say this idea right that the students 245 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: had been taken by municipal police officers and handed over 246 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: to a local drug gang that had killed the students 247 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: and burned their bodies. So his who's Murio Karam, Mexico's 248 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: former attorney general, doubled down on this account at a 249 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: press conference in January of twenty fifteen. Let's take a listen. 250 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 8: You need to so to setlement to support double and 251 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 8: telibusty as soon analys shards a complete studienst Normalistavo. 252 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: It's a historic right, so you hear him, he says, 253 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: is a lebt that is Toorka, that's the historic truth, 254 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of like kiki kuti, very kind of like that's it, 255 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: that's the history. Okay. But then you begin to show 256 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: us and you're reporting that there are big holes in 257 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: the story. So Anansi, can you walk us through the 258 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: corruption then impunity that you saw that you reported and 259 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, I mean this is I think what's really 260 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: the scary part, which is that not only does the 261 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: crime happen, but then the cover up is so intense 262 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: and so meticulous. So what did you learn about that 263 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: that you can share with us? 264 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, Maria, you know when you have a big bond 265 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: to Mexico, our Mexican have gone to Mexico, grow up 266 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 3: in a Mexican family, you learn about what impunity means 267 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: pretty early on, right, So I think in explaining to 268 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: an American audience, like why you know, why the cover up? 269 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 3: Why the corruption? What is that? I mean early on 270 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 3: it was like as simple as like they thought they 271 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 3: could get away with it. You know, they were like 272 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: these are students de recursos from the normal. You know, 273 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: there was an expediency element to just both the classism 274 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: in Mexico and the racism and just like close the 275 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: case and let it be. And then this other part 276 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: which is so much more sinister and arrogant, which is 277 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 3: like we can just say whatever and we are the power, 278 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: and yeah, because we can do it. So that just 279 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 3: as you mentioned, it's also the return of the bri 280 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: which was the long standing party for many decades in 281 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: Mexico's you know what. 282 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: It is and a enci is that it's hard for 283 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: people to maybe understand because it's so Mexican. And that's 284 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: why we talk so much about the othering and dehumanizing 285 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: of people and the consequences of it. Because in Mexico 286 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: you other and dehumanized people who are from the interior, 287 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: who are from the mountains, who are indigenous, who are 288 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: poorer of different economic experience, and you're like, ah, you know, 289 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: their lives don't matter. Their lives have never mattered. And 290 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: this is kind of like an ultimate expression of it. 291 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: And you're right, I mean that kind of corruption, it's 292 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: based on this dehumanization. 293 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: And what was different here is that one you have 294 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: very active leftist students, like they fucked with the wrong 295 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 3: group of people, you know, and these parents that were 296 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 3: so organized and so just quick to understand what was 297 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 3: happening and how they were being lied to, and bringing 298 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 3: the lawyers and bringing these experts and make the world 299 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 3: look here. And I think the government just grossly underestimated 300 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 3: that and found itself just doubling and tripling down and 301 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 3: unwillingly bringing in these international experts and bringing in a 302 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: global community to take a look at it, and bringing in 303 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: people like Kate and I at Revealed to try to 304 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 3: tell the story for a US audience. So, on the 305 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 3: one hand, there's a lot of privilege in the case, 306 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: but it's earned by the people affected, which makes it different, 307 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 3: and of course by the journalism that we spoke of 308 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 3: at the beginning that without that initial documentation, they would 309 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: have just been wi you know, or you know, without 310 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 3: that initial DNA sample. It was, as one of the 311 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 3: parents say, it's like no sor they will give us 312 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 3: a body that isn't ours, that was just daily bred 313 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: in many ways until this case, and it still. 314 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: Is right and that we'll just tell the story that 315 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: we want to tell, and we're going to repeat it 316 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: over and over again, right, you know, this real kind 317 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: of propaganda and the use of and manipulation of misinformation, 318 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: so very Trumpian pro claro, and we have to talk 319 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: about that. During the Trump administration, I was always saying, 320 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: let's talk to Mexican journalists because they've had to deal 321 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: with this. They know. So, Kate, it has been over 322 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: seven years since the students went missing. Some of the 323 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: people suspected of involvement of the crime have not been 324 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: held accountable. So what are the parents and the very 325 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: active as parents and the loved ones of those who 326 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: did disappear? What do they want in terms of accountability? 327 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 1: And I think you're right in the sense that you know, 328 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: people power if you stand up for yourself and if 329 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: you mess with the wrongko munivad deb But what can 330 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: they expect or what are they doing at this point? 331 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just returning to Lunko for a minute. Remember 332 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,479 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight when students and other people who 333 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: were in the square when the protests went on on 334 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: October second, nineteen sixty eight were killed by the military 335 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: and by security forces in the square that were sent 336 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 2: by President d. S Ordidas at the time. The parents 337 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: of those students, relatives of the students, other students, they 338 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: were frightened to come forward. They didn't feel kind of 339 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: the empowerment or the freedom or the security to be 340 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: able to speak out in the way that the parents 341 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 2: of the forty three students kidnapped in twenty fourteen have 342 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: been so courageous in doing so. I think one of 343 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: the things that shocked the Mexican government was that these 344 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: people did not just sort of be quiet and go home. 345 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 2: As Modio Karam, the Attorney General actually you know, was 346 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: signaling to them with the veddadi stodica. It was like, 347 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: cases closed, go home, we can't do anything more. Your 348 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: boys have been turned into ashes. I think the families 349 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: now are you know, they continue to fight. They show 350 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: up in Mexico City literally every single month on the 351 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: twenty six of every single month, which is the day 352 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: that the boys were taken, And except for two or 353 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 2: three months during the worst of the pandemic, they have 354 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: continued to come all the way from Guerrero, you know, 355 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: six eight hours away to march together on the twenty six. 356 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: So they continue to press. They are now part of 357 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: a commission that the President Lopez Obrador, the new president, 358 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: set up for them for this case, and they meet 359 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: with the President they meet with the sub Secretary of 360 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 2: Human Rights, Alexandroncinas they are pushing at every front. They 361 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: are also frustrated with the current investigation. I mean, they 362 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: are supportive of Lopez Obrador's decision to create this commission 363 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: and relaunch the investigation, but they are very, very tired 364 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,719 Speaker 2: of waiting. And it's now been almost three years of 365 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 2: the new government, so I think there is a feeling 366 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: of kind of like when when are we going to 367 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: get the. 368 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: Truth about what happened. 369 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 4: This speaks to a bigger issue, but also speaks to 370 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 4: some other reporting that you all included in the series, 371 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 4: which I think a lot of people don't know much 372 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 4: about regarding this tragedy, and that's the connection with the 373 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 4: United States and the US War on drugs. So you 374 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 4: report on some of the reasons why these students were taken, 375 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 4: and one of the reasons that you bring out is 376 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 4: that some of the buses they used to go to 377 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 4: protests in Mexico City. You know, they weren't aware of this, 378 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 4: these buses were filled with drugs. We also learned there's 379 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: this suspected connection between the disappearance of the students and 380 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 4: a drug bust in Chicago, Illinois. 381 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 5: And like I said, the US War. 382 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 4: On drugs is a direct cause of this sort of 383 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: increased violence in Mexico for decades, right, and the Mexican 384 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 4: administration cooperated in this too, receiving billions of dollars in 385 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 4: military funding from the United States. So an Ayanci, can 386 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 4: you frame this in sort of how the US has 387 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: destabilized Mexico during the quote unquote war on drugs? And 388 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 4: what do you think this impact had on the disappearance 389 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 4: of these students and just a growing number of disappearances 390 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 4: of people in Mexico. 391 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 3: Overall, to back up one second before the war on 392 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 3: drugs and just you know this kind of frustration on 393 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 3: the part of the parents, and then we can plunge 394 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 3: in is that, you know, when the new administration comes 395 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 3: up to this, this is a seven year old case. 396 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: So a lot of what we're learning is like forced 397 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: disappearance isn't just about the abduction, you know, and the 398 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: kidnapping of It's about the covering up of it, the 399 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 3: disappearing of evidence to in fact extend the disappearance of someone. 400 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 3: So that's also what like this new group of investigators 401 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 3: is trying to hold accountable right, is the kind of 402 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 3: cover up part, and how that transitions to the buses 403 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 3: in Chicago is that, you know, a big part of 404 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 3: the theory at the beginning, and this is a little 405 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 3: bit in the weeds, we don't even really get into 406 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 3: it because at the beginning, when we were reporting the 407 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 3: number of buses that were taken, you know, very early 408 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 3: on as part of the Verla Dristorika, it was like 409 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 3: the ladistdiica there were four buses, four buses, and people 410 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 3: like John Gibbler again with his this steimonials were like, 411 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 3: wait a minute, there was five buses. I'm getting told 412 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 3: there's five buses. Finally there's like concrete evidence that there 413 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 3: was a fifth bus. All this shit goes down with 414 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 3: the fifth bus. It gets disappeared, lied to the chauffeur 415 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 3: like just you know, Telenovella level drama. So that becomes 416 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 3: kind of a conspiracy theory because the evidence is so squashed. 417 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 7: Right. 418 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: So part of the work that Kate and I started 419 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 3: to try to do, and part of the reason she 420 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 3: gets roped in is that after the investigation in twenty 421 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: sixteen is dead in the water, the experts leave. They're 422 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 3: kind of pulling on strings right. It's like the Beeto, 423 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 3: like told his last day in office, is touting it. 424 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 3: The military is saying, you will not talk to any 425 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 3: of us like it is now the truth. And the 426 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 3: people that are saying that it's not the truth are 427 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 3: the parents that are being your guessed and these experts 428 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 3: that are now went back to their homes and moved on. 429 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 4: Right. 430 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 3: So Kate gets roped into as kind of like a 431 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 3: hail Mary, you know, to be like, Okay, we know 432 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: about these buses. We can't find this fifth bus. There 433 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 3: has to be something in this connection to this drug route. 434 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: And that's how Kate starts her deep dive into this 435 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: Pablo Vega case, which was one of the heads of 436 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: Guerrero Sunidos from Chicago that knew about the buses and 437 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 3: these text messages that she can talk about. But more importantly, 438 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 3: we talked to this DEA agent who is basically investigating 439 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: the same transnational drug cartel a year before the incident 440 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: and was surveilling them. So it's just yet again an 441 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: example of how in theory we're all working together towards 442 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 3: the war on drugs and this United Front, but really, 443 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,959 Speaker 3: like no one is communicating to anybody So here you 444 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 3: have this d agent who knows everything about Geerridos, but 445 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 3: na you know, no one Cello asking him, you know, 446 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 3: until Kate gets roped in and is connecting the dots. 447 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: So there is that level of fragmentedness. But it's like 448 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 3: no one is thinking this way, Julio, Like, that's why 449 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 3: it's so important for us to have these two perspectives 450 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 3: to try to think that way. 451 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 5: Correct. So we want to punt it over to Kate, right, 452 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 5: is that what we're doing now? So correct? Let's continue this. 453 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: By the way, if you don't get the sports analogy, 454 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: that's okay, me too, So passing them, Mike, let me 455 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: do this. 456 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 5: We're going to pass the mic take Kate. 457 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 4: But I do think this bigger issue is being ignored 458 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 4: in overall reporting, right, I mean in the US in 459 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 4: a lot of ways. So you all make an initial attempt, 460 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 4: which I think you all need to be applauded for 461 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 4: because I think we don't do enough of this. 462 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 5: So what are your thoughts about all this that we're 463 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 5: talking about? 464 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean when you zoom way up and 465 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: you say the war on drugs is responsible for the 466 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,479 Speaker 2: kidnapping of the forty three students. You know, there's going 467 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 2: to be a lot of like, wait, come on, that's ridiculous. 468 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 469 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: Point is not to say that, you know, the drugs 470 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,719 Speaker 2: are in Washington plotting how we can push countries all 471 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: over the world to eradicate opium and arrest drug kingpins 472 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: somehow has a direct line to what happened on the 473 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: night of September twenty six, twenty fourteen, in Iguala. No, 474 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 2: that's not the point. The point is that this is 475 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 2: a policy which encourages criminalization of drugs on both sides 476 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: of the border. This is a policy that uses weapons 477 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 2: and often, in the case of Mexico definitely the military 478 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: to engage in chasing people that they perceive and call 479 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 2: drug traffickers. And this is a case that sort of 480 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: is emblematic of the kind of collateral damage that I 481 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: won't call it the US War on drugs. I will 482 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: call it the drug wars produces on a regular basis. 483 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: I Mean, what is shocking about the kidnapping and disappearance 484 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 2: of the forty three Iotz NAPA boys is the scale 485 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: their youth, the fact that they were training to be teachers, 486 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 2: and the fact that pretty much every parent in every 487 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: country of the globe can relate to the idea of 488 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: you know, knowing that your kid is on a bus, 489 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 2: headed on a school trip and gets ambushed by the 490 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: police and you never see that child again. So it's 491 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: not that this case, sadly is special enterco MIAs in 492 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: Mexico for even the quantity of people kidnapped, there are 493 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: other cases in which many more people have disappeared at once. 494 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 2: But it was sort of all those factors about these 495 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: young men aspiring to something that made people start to reflect, 496 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: how did this happen? Why did this happen? And that's 497 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: where you can start kind of zooming up a little 498 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: bit and seeing the ways in which the drug wars 499 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 2: reduce violence that creates this kind of collateral mass murder. 500 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: Well, it's just that, I mean, I go back to 501 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: what Anaihansi said, which is the problem is they chose 502 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: the wrong people to fuck with, in the sense that 503 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: they chose people who have a sense of value in 504 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: their lives, who are prepared to use their voices, who 505 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: believe oh my god, you know, I'm like in democracy 506 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: in Mexico and in the United States what a word, right, 507 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: But who believe that they have eld recho, you know, 508 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: the right to demand answers, and so that I think 509 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: is part of the story too, is la respoista. It 510 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: is the fact that the like in Flate Loco, the families, 511 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: the people who witness this were not prepared to be quiet, 512 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: and that is a lesson, you know, that is very 513 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: Mexican and the United States they definitely try to bury 514 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: shit and it's like, oh, man, don't bring that up. 515 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: And it's in Mexico. It's like there's a lot of like, nah, 516 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: we're keeping this one, We're keeping this one alive. You're 517 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: not going to forget. We are not going to forget. 518 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 4: But you know, one thing about all this in this discussion, 519 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 4: I would love to get Anyansi and Kate to answer 520 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 4: this question, the lack of urgency from the US and 521 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 4: investigating this. Is it quote unquote a Mexican problem that 522 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 4: we're not supposed to be involved or no, no, So 523 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 4: can you talk more about that, because it does feel 524 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 4: like there are some connections, right. 525 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: Oh oh, you know, one of the things that we 526 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: were first involved in in this case was trying to 527 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 2: get the United States to turn over text messages that 528 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: had been sent between members of Guerrero Sunidos and Chicago 529 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: involved in the middle of their heroin transactions and making 530 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: cash handover fist and there Guerrero Sunidos buddies in Iguala, 531 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: Mexico in the days and weeks leading up to the 532 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: kidnapping and the day of and the days and weeks 533 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: and months afterwards. So Number one, to answer your question, Julio, 534 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: it's like there's all this information that the United States has, 535 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 2: specifically the AUSA, the US Attorney in Northern Illinois that 536 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: is overseeing this case of these Gerero Sunilo's members there 537 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: in Illinois and at a larger level, the Justice Department. 538 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: So that that's why President Lopez Obrador when he met 539 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: with Vice President Kamala Harris in May of last year, 540 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: specifically and directly asked her would she be willing to 541 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: help Mexico get their hands on information from that case 542 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: that could help the new investigators in the Ayotinapa case 543 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: in Mexico. So yeah, there's quite a bit of information 544 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: inside US files that has not yet been turned over 545 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: to Mexico on this case. 546 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 3: And just to add to that, with the work of 547 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 3: the archive, we're now through reveal in the middle of 548 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: a lawsuit suing the government to turn that over via 549 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 3: the FOYA. And you know, one of the findings of 550 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 3: our investigation is also the intense US secrecy around anything 551 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 3: a yotz napa, which you know is quite baffling. 552 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 5: That's interesting. 553 00:30:48,720 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, well, let's move on to our final segment, 554 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 4: which we call lamos or the last one before you 555 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 4: go or last call? 556 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 5: Right, yeah, what are you? Last dance? Last dance? 557 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: Okay, the shot of tequila that we need to kind of, 558 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, manage this situation because the investigation into the 559 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: student's disappearance continues. There are so many unanswered questions though. 560 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: And in the last part of the series, titled All 561 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: Souls Dolo los Santos, you both visit Gristi Autista. She's 562 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: one of the mothers of one of the disappeared boys. 563 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: When she and her family were actually preparing an olfrinda, 564 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: an altar for Elia de los Mortos, and two of 565 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: her daughters talked to you about their brother, Benjamen, one 566 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: of the forty three. Let's take a listen. 567 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 9: As he grew up, he was different from most boys 568 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 9: in the village. 569 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: He was self confident and fashionable. 570 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 9: Suppero Meidani says he was the only kid in town 571 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 9: who dared to wear pick and he was a super 572 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 9: talented dancer. 573 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 3: When Laura got married, Bengha walked her to the church. 574 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 3: In this video you see them dancing together, Bangha in 575 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 3: a pink button down shirt. He always hugged me, Laura 576 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 3: tells us, even though she's not a hugger and never 577 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 3: hugged him back, now she wishes she could hug him. 578 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: So Louis, Oh my god, that's so beautiful. You know 579 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: what you did with Banhamen right there, I'm getting all 580 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: choked up, is that you made him so human, right, 581 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: you just made him so human. And that's what we're 582 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: talking about. Forty three human beings who disappeared. They have 583 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 1: been dehumanized, and what you did, the both of you, 584 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: with your beautiful reporting, is to make them so human. 585 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: And I love that Binghamen was walking all over you'll see, 586 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: not buying his pink shirts. So that's a beautiful image. Right. 587 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: But I guess for those of us who are here 588 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: and listening, you know, what should we do to best 589 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: honor their lives and to kind of de present for them? 590 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: And let's start with you and as. 591 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 3: It's so interesting, we're so happy you felt like you 592 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 3: got to know him a bit. Because another thing that 593 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 3: we've learned from this reporting, and you know, one of 594 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 3: the experts got Loods, Betty Stein, talks about it a lot, 595 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 3: is that it's can be so juicy, right to talk 596 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 3: about the buses and the fifth bus and the drug war, 597 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 3: and you know, just that reporter part and you get 598 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 3: through all of this and you're like, wait a minute, 599 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 3: we don't have a sense of any of the boys, right. 600 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: And I still don't know if it was quite the 601 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: right choice to wait until the and to have a 602 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 3: sense of bank coming or the other boys. But certainly 603 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: I think there's so much to just that, Maria, to 604 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 3: just like not appropriating the story for our own careers 605 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 3: in some ways, and really taking it back to the 606 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 3: families and the parents, and really pushing back against the 607 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 3: like too much Spanish, too many voices, too many characters, 608 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 3: to try to bring those voices in into ultimately what 609 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 3: is a public service that we all are participating in, 610 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 3: which is public radio. So I think that was kind 611 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 3: of my own agenda, not only forgetting their voices, but 612 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: really in this household of women, like Gracie's like a 613 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 3: single mom to daughters who it's really just this household 614 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 3: run by women and each one of them has a 615 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 3: different perspective on whether bank Coming is alive or not. Really, 616 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 3: so that was also so important for us as reporters 617 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 3: to just show versus tell, versus saying forced disappearances X 618 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 3: and Y to something that we are truly incapable of understanding, 619 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 3: and like, how can we show that? And some of 620 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 3: those choices we made were through her daughters right where 621 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 3: you have made Annie who was very young when he 622 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 3: disappeared and felt kind of abandoned by Laudai and Gristi, 623 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 3: who went, you know, on the marches every time to 624 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 3: the city nine hour drive sometimes every two weeks, and 625 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 3: then you know there's Lauda who is convinced that he 626 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 3: will return, and Christy, who we heard from. You know 627 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 3: that it becomes such a confusing thing because, as Kate 628 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 3: has said in the past, until you have a body, 629 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 3: how can you you know? Is the line that we 630 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 3: cut out? 631 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: You know, tell me when especially for so many of 632 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: this sios in my country and having been through it myself, 633 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: it's like as until you kind of know what happened, Genes, 634 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: it's important. So you know, Mayha mein kate your final 635 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: thoughts and how best to honor the lives of the 636 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: forty three. 637 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 2: Das you know, Maria, I'm an investigator, and I felt 638 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: like with this podcast and with the work that we 639 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 2: can continue to do after this radio story is over, 640 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 2: is I felt really strongly that we need to understand 641 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 2: like how this sort of machinery of corruption and impunity 642 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 2: works so that this kind of thing can happen and 643 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 2: these forty three boys can disappear and we can be 644 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: here seven years later talking about them and we still 645 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: don't know truly what happened and where they are. And 646 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: so one of the things that we really tried to 647 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: do in this piece, although it was so sort it 648 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: was hard to kind of wrestle in pieces of this 649 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: into the story. But what we tried a couple times 650 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: is to explain that it's not about like a corrupt 651 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 2: guy or a corrupt unit, or you know that impunity 652 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 2: is just sort of this overarching kind of the air 653 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 2: we breathe. No, it's about a system that functions really 654 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 2: smoothly to acknowledge what it wants to acknowledge and to 655 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 2: hide the rest and there steps along the way in 656 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: this story, you know, where they pretend there was a fire, 657 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 2: and then we can and show how experts figured out 658 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: there was no fire, how they couldn't find bulletshells to 659 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 2: prove they had killed them in the garbage dump, and 660 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 2: then they plant the bulletshells in the garbage MP. I mean, 661 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 2: we wanted to sort of help people understand that impunity 662 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: and justice is fabricated. It's made in the factory of 663 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 2: the government, and that you can see that. You can 664 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 2: see those mechanisms, and you can analyze them, and you 665 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 2: can dismantle them if you have the political will dismantling it. 666 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: I love it. Yes. 667 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 3: The only thing I'd add to that is like they 668 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 3: count on the story being so confusing that no one 669 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 3: covers it, you know what I mean, They count on 670 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 3: it being so in the weeds and so in this 671 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 3: mechanism that you're just like, yeah, let's move on. 672 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 5: You know, it's a tactic. 673 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: But you know what, they messed with the wrong people 674 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to reveal and to the National Security art. 675 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: They mess with the royal families. So they and the 676 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: families and the escort they as producer and reporter with Reveal, 677 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: and Kate Doyle, Senior analyst at the National Security Archive. 678 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining Hulu and me on 679 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: this episode of In the Thick means a lot. 680 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. 681 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 3: Thank you, Maria. 682 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Nojosa and I'm your listener. Yeah, I'm talking 683 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: to you. Go to app podcasts to rate and review 684 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: us the elms. Also, remember you can listen to In 685 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: the Pic on Pandora, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts on. 686 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: Check us out on the web at inthik dot org, 687 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter and on Instagram at in the 688 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: Pic show, Like us on Facebook and tell your friends 689 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: and family to listen. Also, if you want to hear 690 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: the whole phenomenal series, go to the Reveal podcast feed. 691 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: It's all right there. In the Thick is produced by 692 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: Nur Saudi, Harshanahata, Lisa Salinas, and our fellow Sarah Hershander, 693 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: with editorial support from Charlotte Manjin. Our audio engineering team 694 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: is Stephanie Lebou, Julia Caruso, and gabriel A Bias. Our 695 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: digital editor is Luis Luna. Thanks to Raoul Bettis for 696 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: recording me the music you heard is courtesy of Natunal 697 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: Captain ZZK Records Lucie on our next episode, dear listener, 698 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening. Remember not yes see 699 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: you on the next episode. 700 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 5: Let's stay here, don't ever leave us. Bye bye, y'all. 701 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 5: The opinions expressed by the guests and contributors in this 702 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 5: podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the 703 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 5: views of Futuro Media or its employees.