WEBVTT - Remembering JFK Jr. and Carolyn: 25 Years Later - Part One: John 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:10.920 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well, 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:12.799 just a couple of months ago, I sat down with 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.320 John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:19.680 his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.720 occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:25.560 and his sister every year. As it happened, we did 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.800 not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.760 share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.280 Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.519 about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.360 ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.280 John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.600 believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:52.800 before he. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.760 Parented for both of them, and I think she was 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.680 deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his concerns were 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.120 part of our upbringing and some of her own which 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.280 were not his, And I think there was a dynamic 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.440 there that was healthy. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.520 Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:19.680 these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary. 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.399 Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior, 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.960 his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.240 piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts. 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.720 He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three, 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:42.559 and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.160 on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.280 companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.520 of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:57.040 journalists Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.800 Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.720 of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.519 Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:16.080 well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.639 no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.320 about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.960 among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.120 seems like many people who knew them are now willing 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.799 to open up and tell some stories about their lives. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.280 What was it about John and Carolyn that made people 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.799 so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.080 both the past and the future? Was it a combination 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.200 of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.240 was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them, 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.320 and of course one of the millions of women besotted 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.160 by John. Seeing that come to a sudden, senseless and 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.880 was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books, 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.440 in many ways, we get to know them all over 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.960 again and have a much better sense of who they 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:17.200 really were. First of all, Rose, Marie, and Liz, welcome 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.960 to next question. How are you both doing great? 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.399 Thank you for having us. We're excited, We're super excited. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.880 We're super excited, and we love hearing what people are 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.440 responding to And I'm always asking people what's your favorite 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.800 chapter and which voice did you like? So I think 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.560 because we've lived in our heads for so long and 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.000 of course in the many papers on my desk, but 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.000 it's amazing for us to have feedback from our readers. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.080 Before we talk about sort of the book and how 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.280 you all set it up, which I think is really 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:53.040 unique and interesting and eminently readable. I want to talk 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:57.040 to you about your relationship with John F. Kennedy Junior, 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:01.640 and how you all decided to collaborate Rose Marie, Why 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:02.640 don't we start with you? 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.360 Sure, I was John's assistant and then chief of staff 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.840 for five years at George. I became very close friends 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:15.160 with him and with Carolyn, and we had a wonderful 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:21.560 friendship and brothers sister teasing relationship and a great professional 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:26.560 relationship as well. And so that's how I came to this. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.560 Liz, what about you? How did you know John F. 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:31.440 Kennedy Junior. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.359 So I got the jfk Junior beat back when my 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.800 boss thought that John and Carolyn are about to get married, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.239 and she said, you got to find out everything about 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.080 these people. And you know, I've been thinking about it lately. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.120 And of course this is back when nobody talked like zero. 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.919 And I always would say nobody was nicer about turning 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.440 me down than John's friends, because the response would always 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.280 to be like, Liz, you know, you know I can't 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.160 talk to you, and I'm like, I know you can't 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.520 talk to me. But they did return, some of them 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.599 to return my call. And for that I'll always be 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:06.279 as you know, as a reporter, we appreciate that so yeah, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:07.640 basically nobody talked back then. 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:08.800 Maybe there was one friend. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:10.960 This was when you were at People magazine. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:12.960 Yeah, and I'm still at People and Rose and I 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.520 weest that. I always say, you know, you never returned 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:15.880 my call. 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.280 They always said no, but I returned your calls. 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.280 But I only met Rose a year, probably about a 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.400 year after John died. We met for the first time, 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:29.240 So our relationship really started after John's death. 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.279 Why did you all want to write this book? Obviously, 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.839 on July sixteenth of this year, it will be twenty 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:40.640 five years since John died, which is just so impossible 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.080 to believe. But what was your goal when you were 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.760 working on this book and publishing it around this time? 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.000 Rose, Marie, I think it was that I wanted John 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.799 to be remembered. I didn't want him to be forgotten, 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.080 and particularly younger people to know about him, who he was, 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:03.040 his place in our history, our culture, George magazine. And 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:09.240 I think that enough time had passed where for me 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.719 and also for his friends and some of his family 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:17.480 members who participated, it felt more like a celebration of. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:18.719 Him than the morning. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.120 It felt like enough time had passed that we could 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.320 celebrate rather than mourn. And I really always felt that 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:28.840 I never wanted John to be forgotten, and I felt 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.400 that if he knew you were going to be gone 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.640 at thirty eight, he wouldn't want to be forgotten. 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.560 Liz, I guess this time people did return your calls. 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.680 What was it like for you to report on this 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.120 now versus when you were first given this assignment back 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:43.640 in the day. 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:45.800 Well, I'll just say it makes a big difference when 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.760 you say I'm working with Rosemary Tarnsio. Let's just say, 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.240 but I had met some of John's friends over the years, 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.520 maybe through books they had written or other projects that 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:58.800 we had done together. But of course it's a whole 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.159 different level, you know, now that I'm working with Rose. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.160 You know, I think it was I was just really 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.960 interested in having sort of open ended conversations with people, 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.040 you know, I kind of wanted to see where they went, 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.520 tried not to ask too many, you know, leading questions, 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.120 and we sort of wanted to present sort of this 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.720 kind of kaleidoscopic view of John, right, all different voices, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.600 all different perspectives, all different timeframes, and you know, there 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.640 were a lot of like surprises along the way. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:27.840 So I think, you know, Rose and. 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.720 I would get so excited when we got a great interview, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.240 and we would get heartbroken once somebody turned us down. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.080 But it was all like we were. I was like 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.920 learning as I went. So I think it sort of 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:41.800 gave the project a lot of energy, and it gave 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.240 us energy because I mean it was daunting but exciting 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:46.000 at the same time. 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.200 The format of the book is very interesting, and that, 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.320 as you said, it's a kaleidoscopic but word that I 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:57.240 don't use that much. Liz view JFK Junior's life from 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.960 a whole myriad of perspectives. In fact, you did over 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.600 two hundred interviews. You talked to me, Rosemary talked to me, 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.120 and it was fun to reminisce about the fact that 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.920 I had done John's last on camera interview and how 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:17.280 in retrospect, how moving and poignant it was. But how 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.360 did you all decide to format the book the way 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:26.440 you did, with basically people talking about their memories of John, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:31.000 even starting with the courtship of John F. Kennedy and 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.280 Jacqueline Bouvier and before they got married. So tell me 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.280 about sort of putting it together and how you decided 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:42.120 to fill it with sometimes just snippets and other times 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:43.640 several paragraphs. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.920 From my perspective, it felt like I think Liz could 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.880 be you know, from a journalistic perspective, would answer this 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.280 better than I would. But I think what we wanted 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.560 it to feel like was you were sitting in a 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.400 room or in a living room and just sharing memories 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:04.040 of John and of his life. And I think for 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.600 the part of it that was you know, historical so 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.040 to speak, going back to his mom and dad and 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.400 their courtship. I think he gave it a perspective so 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.360 that for people who might not have known him or 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.559 didn't know the history, they wouldn't feel like they were 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.640 reading about someone that they didn't know. You know, they 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.680 kind of got the background, the history. This is why 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:29.800 this person is who he is, and this is how 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:31.719 he got there, and this is so I think it's 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.760 important when you want people to invest in someone to 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.359 do that, to really paint a full picture. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.440 And to really hear their life story from the very beginning, 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.560 even before they were conceived, right, And I think that 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:50.120 made his life come alive for me, especially the depictions 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.120 of him as a little boy fascinated with all things military, 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:59.440 fascinated with helicopters, crying when his father left, and that 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:04.640 very po it remembrance of the President looking at the 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.200 Secret Service agent and saying, you know, take care of John, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.720 never knowing that he wouldn't see his son again after 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.880 that fateful trip to Dallas. What were your hopes for 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:19.000 the layout of the book. 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.880 I guess we really wanted the book to move, you know, 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.240 and like I think what Rose was saying, like, so 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.320 there is sort of a conversation happening, and so you know, 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.080 and then as we were writing it, you'd see, oh, 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.800 this person talked about let's just say the wedding, Carolyn's 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.640 wedding dress. Oh, but then remember that thing that other 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.000 person said. And then so you'd almost like it's almost 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.040 like like when we're talking, we're interrupting each other, and 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.560 what about that? And so you kind of were like 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.760 maybe sometimes looking for themes, and then sometimes right something 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:48.480 would flow. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.360 Into the next thing, or somebody would say something. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.880 And when I started it, I actually made print outs 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.559 of my transcripts and was cutting That's how old I am. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.360 I was cutting them at the beginning and the kitchen 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.800 table with my husband, and somehow I needed to break 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.319 it to see it in a new way and then oh, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.960 this voice actually goes with that person, so right. The 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.760 idea was to sort of give it energy, people having 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.840 a conversation, and then chapters sort of have a beginning 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:16.720 and an end. Maybe they're sort of leading you into 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.240 the next chapter. So I guess we just wanted to 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.640 make it as lively and as possible and really sort 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.280 of winnowing it down to anecdotes so people are really 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:26.280 sharing stories. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.080 At the beginning of the book, you have an interview 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:35.440 with someone Martha Bartlett, whose husband had set up Jackie 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:40.240 and Jack Kennedy back when they were much younger. I 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.920 think Jackie was just twenty one at the time and 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.560 he was thirty three, and I think a lot of 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.320 people might be surprised that then John Kennedy had no 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.600 game like In fact, you quoted her saying, poor Jack 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.960 was always making advances, half the time they were not accepted. 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.400 He thought he was a great don juant, and most 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.360 women didn't think of him as a great don juant. 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.760 That made me laugh because I thought, oh my gosh, 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.200 this big Latharia, who you know, kind of was an 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:11.439 awkward guy. 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.600 Well, let's just say Martha is one tough lady. Okay, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.160 and she has survived a lot, so I will just 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.600 leave it at that, Martha. That was Martha's take. 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.840 She definitely knew them, and she's definitely out of that era. 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.199 How old is Martha at this point. 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.360 I'd say ninety five ninety six, and wow, Marth was 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:33.000 going strong. 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.320 Good for Martha and she you know, I know she 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.320 also told you that Jackie knew from the get go 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.400 that he was a big philanderer, but because of her 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:53.079 father and his philandering ways, she wasn't that rattled by it. 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:54.800 Is that accurate, Rose, Marie? 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.680 I don't know about that. I think that might be 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:02.800 Martha's opinion from what she saw. But you know, I 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.960 think we all go into a new relationship, and I 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.280 would imagine Jackie Kennedy did the same thing, hoping for 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.160 the best and hoping that we have a great romance. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.400 And I think in a lot of ways they did. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.360 But I think that there's always you know, there are 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:24.719 always the problems in pitfalls and relationships. So that's how 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.040 I look at it. I think everybody goes it in 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.120 hopeful and you know, really wide eyed about it. I hope, 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:33.440 you know. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.720 I think you're being very nice and diplomatic. It sounds 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:40.320 like he was kind of a dog, but because her 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.960 dad was kind of a dog that, at least according 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.800 to Martha, she just dealt with it. In fact, Martha's 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.000 quote is Jackie was used to philandering. It's all about 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.600 what you're used to, you connect it with love. So 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.640 I thought that was really interesting insight into their relationship. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.000 And how did you take away from all the people 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:06.120 with whom you spoke about their marriage in general? I 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:10.600 thought it was sort of heartbreaking that Jackie lost her 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.680 fourth child, because she had also lost a child earlier, 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:21.320 Arabella was stillborn, and then her fourth child, Patrick died 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:27.760 shortly after birth from respiratory distress. She was despondent, and 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.840 she and according to whoever it was who was talking 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.880 at this time in the book, decided to go to 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:39.640 Dallas and to help her husband. And that person said 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:44.840 that they seemed to be on much stronger ground and 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:50.200 that the death of Patrick not only changed him, changed 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.960 her obviously, but it changed them as a couple in 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:54.120 a way. Right No. 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.920 Clint Hill has said that the Secret Service agent who 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.320 was with Jackie all the time, and he noticed more 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.840 a little more tenderness between them, a little more closeness, 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:09.360 and Martha had also noticed a change. So I mean, right, 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.760 that's something unimaginable to go through something like that and 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.520 what that does to a couple. So that was really 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:22.160 touching anecdote there, and very heartbreaking, I thought, And it. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.800 Is heartbreaking because those things can go either way in 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.480 a relationship, but either it can either bring you closer 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:31.760 together or further apart. And I think it's, you know, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:36.720 just sad that happened that way. And then they went 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:37.760 to Dallas. 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.720 And then of course everything changed when President Kennedy was assassinated, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.480 and boy, the details in the book about that are 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.280 so hero range. You know, it made me think and 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:56.760 wonder about John and never knowing his dad really and 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.280 it made me so sad that he couldn't read this 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:05.240 book and the remembrances of people who saw him with 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:10.720 his dad, and the part where his father knew that 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.920 Jackie didn't really like the kids to be photographed, so 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.840 when she went away, he would have the White House 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.120 photographer come in because he knew people would love to 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.840 see photos of the kids, and I guess he didn't 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:27.160 feel as strongly about their privacy. And that's when that 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.960 very famous photo of John John under the desk was 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.600 taken when Jackie was out of the White House and 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.880 the coast was clear, right yeah. 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.640 And also, as Michael Shean says, John told him that 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.160 his mother would not allow them to chew gum, so 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.320 his father would always have gum for him, and he 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.000 had it under his desk, and that's how John got 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.440 under there to get the gone. 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.880 That's so funny. He was a little young to be 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.600 chewing gum, wasn't he. I mean he was how old? 0:16:59.720 --> 0:16:59.960 Was he? 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:01.720 Two or three years old at the time? 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.360 And even three? It was guy. 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.600 When we come back. How the nineteen sixty three assassination 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.679 of President Kennedy when John was only three, strengthened his 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:23.720 bonds with his mother, Jackie and his sister Caroline. If 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.200 you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.440 of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.640 and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:41.560 Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:50.760 with Rosemarie Trensio and Liz McNeil. After President Kennedy was assassinated. Clearly, John, 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.520 Caroline and Jackie, I feel funny calling her by your 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.240 first name. But anyway, they formed an extraordinary bond. They 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:01.360 tell us about that. 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.120 Liz, I was just thinking of something that Sasha Chair 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.240 may have said. John's one of John's closest friends, and 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.040 she called that sort of like a sacred space, sort 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.560 of something that is, you know, almost impenetrable because they 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.080 were so close. And I think there was another friend, 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.600 Chris Oberbeck, John's roommate at Brown, who said, you know, 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.240 those two women are those are the primary sort of 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.280 influences in his life, right. It's his mother and his sister, 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:27.879 So it's I don't think I have thought about it 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.080 that way before, but when you think about it that way, right, 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.639 those two relationships really form who he is. So I 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.160 thought that was enlightening. I hadn't thought of John that way, 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.120 like basically an unbreakable. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:44.240 Bond there also, I think probably having a certain respect 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.960 for women. I know that one of his friends said 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.040 he could have been out carousing, having one night stance. 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.919 But he was really a serial monogamous when he got older, 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:55.639 wasn't he? 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.000 Yes, he was, And I think that his relationship with 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:00.800 his mother and his sister or had a lot to 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.879 do with that. I think he had a respect for women, 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.679 and he didn't want to see women be hurt. He 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.040 didn't want to be responsible for that. And I think 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.119 his mother and his sister were the absolute biggest influences 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:17.360 on his life, and their relationship was closer than anything 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.439 any relationship I've ever seen. I think he had a 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.119 tremendous amount of respect for women. I think he was 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:29.240 cautious about not hurting people's feelings, especially women, because he wouldn't 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:30.880 want to see his mom or his sister be hurt. 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.800 You know, he adored those women. They and they really 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:39.280 formed who he was. And Caroline was extremely protective of John, 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:40.800 and he was of her. 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.520 I wanted to ask you how Caroline feels or felt 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.080 about the fact that you were putting this book together. 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:51.720 Obviously she didn't participate, but there are photos of the 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.919 two of them in the book that are really quite beautiful. 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.040 I corresponded with her and she said, you know, look, 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.160 I'm not going to participate, but thank you for letting 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.639 me know, and good luck with it. There weren't didn't 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.720 seem to be on my end from her any hard 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.639 feelings about it. It's just not something that she would 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.200 participate in. And I totally understand that, and I respect that. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.720 What about other family members, did you reach out to them? 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.560 I mean, this is a big, big family. 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.119 Yeah, we reached out to a few. I didn't go 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.800 far and wide with the family because I thought I 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.600 wanted to really have the people who were, you know, 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.720 close to him and who he communicated with most often. 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.720 But Carrie gave us a really beautiful, funny, you know, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.320 entry for the book, and I love it where she 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.640 talks about the little kid who says, says, what's your name? 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.760 And he says John? And he says John, what's your 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.399 whole name? And he says John F. Kennedy. He says, 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.520 do you know that you're named after an airport? 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.320 That's so funny. Well, that's great that Carrie was able 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.399 to give you something. But I think Caroline continues to 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:07.120 be very protective of John, and you know you kind 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.320 of alluded to this early on. But how do you 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:15.159 think he'd feel about some of these personal stories and 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:19.600 people talking about pretty intimate things in this book. Do 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:21.520 you think he would be upset with. 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:22.159 You at all? 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.000 Or what do you think he would say if he 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.879 were to walk into your room right now? 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.639 Well, I'd like to think that, you know, anybody after 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:35.679 they passed away would love to have their friends and 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.800 their family members and their colleagues come together and remember 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.760 them and tell beautiful stories about them and share their 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:44.879 memories so that they're not forgotten. 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.400 It's interesting, right because John was a member of our profession, right, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:50.880 so he becomes an editor in chief, and I think 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.840 as a journalist, right, it was I think we wanted 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.800 to have this element of truth, but also to have 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:59.760 a lot of heart, and I feel like the book 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.320 does that. But I think you there has to be 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.679 an element of truth, like we had to if these 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.680 stories were shared with us and everything was done in balance, 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.159 like I felt, for me, it made me just have 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.879 a much better understanding of him, more empathy, more fondness 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:15.320 for him. 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:17.200 So that was our intent. 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.119 Let's talk about his relationship with the father. He never 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:26.960 really knew how difficult was that for him to navigate 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.720 this the mythology of his father, the larger than life 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:36.120 figure that his dad was, with his own development as 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:39.920 a person. You watched him, I think probably struggle with 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:42.000 that at times. What was that like? 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.879 I don't know that he struggled with being part of 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:50.000 a legacy or a mythology. He didn't see it that way. 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:53.119 He saw it as this is my family. They're not 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:55.560 a legacy to me. They're not a mythology to me. 0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:00.320 They're my family. I think what was interesting about what 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.360