Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well,
Speaker 1: just a couple of months ago, I sat down with
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be
Speaker 1: his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the
Speaker 1: occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John
Speaker 1: and his sister every year. As it happened, we did
Speaker 1: not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to
Speaker 1: share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK
Speaker 1: Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking
Speaker 1: about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't
Speaker 1: believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months
Speaker 1: before he.
Speaker 2: Parented for both of them, and I think she was
Speaker 2: deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his concerns were
Speaker 2: part of our upbringing and some of her own which
Speaker 2: were not his, And I think there was a dynamic
Speaker 2: there that was healthy.
Speaker 1: Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all
Speaker 1: these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary.
Speaker 1: Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior,
Speaker 1: his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing
Speaker 1: piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three,
Speaker 1: and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today,
Speaker 1: on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of
Speaker 1: companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors
Speaker 1: of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by
Speaker 1: journalists Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy.
Speaker 1: Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection
Speaker 1: of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by
Speaker 1: Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as
Speaker 1: well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time,
Speaker 1: no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much
Speaker 1: about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding
Speaker 1: among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it
Speaker 1: seems like many people who knew them are now willing
Speaker 1: to open up and tell some stories about their lives.
Speaker 1: What was it about John and Carolyn that made people
Speaker 1: so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent
Speaker 1: both the past and the future? Was it a combination
Speaker 1: of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I
Speaker 1: was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them,
Speaker 1: and of course one of the millions of women besotted
Speaker 1: by John. Seeing that come to a sudden, senseless and
Speaker 1: was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books,
Speaker 1: in many ways, we get to know them all over
Speaker 1: again and have a much better sense of who they
Speaker 1: really were. First of all, Rose, Marie, and Liz, welcome
Speaker 1: to next question. How are you both doing great?
Speaker 3: Thank you for having us. We're excited, We're super excited.
Speaker 4: We're super excited, and we love hearing what people are
Speaker 4: responding to And I'm always asking people what's your favorite
Speaker 4: chapter and which voice did you like? So I think
Speaker 4: because we've lived in our heads for so long and
Speaker 4: of course in the many papers on my desk, but
Speaker 4: it's amazing for us to have feedback from our readers.
Speaker 1: Before we talk about sort of the book and how
Speaker 1: you all set it up, which I think is really
Speaker 1: unique and interesting and eminently readable. I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about your relationship with John F. Kennedy Junior,
Speaker 1: and how you all decided to collaborate Rose Marie, Why
Speaker 1: don't we start with you?
Speaker 3: Sure, I was John's assistant and then chief of staff
Speaker 3: for five years at George. I became very close friends
Speaker 3: with him and with Carolyn, and we had a wonderful
Speaker 3: friendship and brothers sister teasing relationship and a great professional
Speaker 3: relationship as well. And so that's how I came to this.
Speaker 1: Liz, what about you? How did you know John F.
Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior.
Speaker 4: So I got the jfk Junior beat back when my
Speaker 4: boss thought that John and Carolyn are about to get married,
Speaker 4: and she said, you got to find out everything about
Speaker 4: these people. And you know, I've been thinking about it lately.
Speaker 4: And of course this is back when nobody talked like zero.
Speaker 4: And I always would say nobody was nicer about turning
Speaker 4: me down than John's friends, because the response would always
Speaker 4: to be like, Liz, you know, you know I can't
Speaker 4: talk to you, and I'm like, I know you can't
Speaker 4: talk to me. But they did return, some of them
Speaker 4: to return my call. And for that I'll always be
Speaker 4: as you know, as a reporter, we appreciate that so yeah,
Speaker 4: basically nobody talked back then.
Speaker 5: Maybe there was one friend.
Speaker 1: This was when you were at People magazine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm still at People and Rose and I
Speaker 4: weest that. I always say, you know, you never returned
Speaker 4: my call.
Speaker 1: They always said no, but I returned your calls.
Speaker 4: But I only met Rose a year, probably about a
Speaker 4: year after John died. We met for the first time,
Speaker 4: So our relationship really started after John's death.
Speaker 1: Why did you all want to write this book? Obviously,
Speaker 1: on July sixteenth of this year, it will be twenty
Speaker 1: five years since John died, which is just so impossible
Speaker 1: to believe. But what was your goal when you were
Speaker 1: working on this book and publishing it around this time?
Speaker 3: Rose, Marie, I think it was that I wanted John
Speaker 3: to be remembered. I didn't want him to be forgotten,
Speaker 3: and particularly younger people to know about him, who he was,
Speaker 3: his place in our history, our culture, George magazine. And
Speaker 3: I think that enough time had passed where for me
Speaker 3: and also for his friends and some of his family
Speaker 3: members who participated, it felt more like a celebration of.
Speaker 1: Him than the morning.
Speaker 3: It felt like enough time had passed that we could
Speaker 3: celebrate rather than mourn. And I really always felt that
Speaker 3: I never wanted John to be forgotten, and I felt
Speaker 3: that if he knew you were going to be gone
Speaker 3: at thirty eight, he wouldn't want to be forgotten.
Speaker 1: Liz, I guess this time people did return your calls.
Speaker 1: What was it like for you to report on this
Speaker 1: now versus when you were first given this assignment back
Speaker 1: in the day.
Speaker 4: Well, I'll just say it makes a big difference when
Speaker 4: you say I'm working with Rosemary Tarnsio. Let's just say,
Speaker 4: but I had met some of John's friends over the years,
Speaker 4: maybe through books they had written or other projects that
Speaker 4: we had done together. But of course it's a whole
Speaker 4: different level, you know, now that I'm working with Rose.
Speaker 4: You know, I think it was I was just really
Speaker 4: interested in having sort of open ended conversations with people,
Speaker 4: you know, I kind of wanted to see where they went,
Speaker 4: tried not to ask too many, you know, leading questions,
Speaker 4: and we sort of wanted to present sort of this
Speaker 4: kind of kaleidoscopic view of John, right, all different voices,
Speaker 4: all different perspectives, all different timeframes, and you know, there
Speaker 4: were a lot of like surprises along the way.
Speaker 5: So I think, you know, Rose and.
Speaker 4: I would get so excited when we got a great interview,
Speaker 4: and we would get heartbroken once somebody turned us down.
Speaker 4: But it was all like we were. I was like
Speaker 4: learning as I went. So I think it sort of
Speaker 4: gave the project a lot of energy, and it gave
Speaker 4: us energy because I mean it was daunting but exciting
Speaker 4: at the same time.
Speaker 1: The format of the book is very interesting, and that,
Speaker 1: as you said, it's a kaleidoscopic but word that I
Speaker 1: don't use that much. Liz view JFK Junior's life from
Speaker 1: a whole myriad of perspectives. In fact, you did over
Speaker 1: two hundred interviews. You talked to me, Rosemary talked to me,
Speaker 1: and it was fun to reminisce about the fact that
Speaker 1: I had done John's last on camera interview and how
Speaker 1: in retrospect, how moving and poignant it was. But how
Speaker 1: did you all decide to format the book the way
Speaker 1: you did, with basically people talking about their memories of John,
Speaker 1: even starting with the courtship of John F. Kennedy and
Speaker 1: Jacqueline Bouvier and before they got married. So tell me
Speaker 1: about sort of putting it together and how you decided
Speaker 1: to fill it with sometimes just snippets and other times
Speaker 1: several paragraphs.
Speaker 3: From my perspective, it felt like I think Liz could
Speaker 3: be you know, from a journalistic perspective, would answer this
Speaker 3: better than I would. But I think what we wanted
Speaker 3: it to feel like was you were sitting in a
Speaker 3: room or in a living room and just sharing memories
Speaker 3: of John and of his life. And I think for
Speaker 3: the part of it that was you know, historical so
Speaker 3: to speak, going back to his mom and dad and
Speaker 3: their courtship. I think he gave it a perspective so
Speaker 3: that for people who might not have known him or
Speaker 3: didn't know the history, they wouldn't feel like they were
Speaker 3: reading about someone that they didn't know. You know, they
Speaker 3: kind of got the background, the history. This is why
Speaker 3: this person is who he is, and this is how
Speaker 3: he got there, and this is so I think it's
Speaker 3: important when you want people to invest in someone to
Speaker 3: do that, to really paint a full picture.
Speaker 1: And to really hear their life story from the very beginning,
Speaker 1: even before they were conceived, right, And I think that
Speaker 1: made his life come alive for me, especially the depictions
Speaker 1: of him as a little boy fascinated with all things military,
Speaker 1: fascinated with helicopters, crying when his father left, and that
Speaker 1: very po it remembrance of the President looking at the
Speaker 1: Secret Service agent and saying, you know, take care of John,
Speaker 1: never knowing that he wouldn't see his son again after
Speaker 1: that fateful trip to Dallas. What were your hopes for
Speaker 1: the layout of the book.
Speaker 4: I guess we really wanted the book to move, you know,
Speaker 4: and like I think what Rose was saying, like, so
Speaker 4: there is sort of a conversation happening, and so you know,
Speaker 4: and then as we were writing it, you'd see, oh,
Speaker 4: this person talked about let's just say the wedding, Carolyn's
Speaker 4: wedding dress. Oh, but then remember that thing that other
Speaker 4: person said. And then so you'd almost like it's almost
Speaker 4: like like when we're talking, we're interrupting each other, and
Speaker 4: what about that? And so you kind of were like
Speaker 4: maybe sometimes looking for themes, and then sometimes right something
Speaker 4: would flow.
Speaker 5: Into the next thing, or somebody would say something.
Speaker 4: And when I started it, I actually made print outs
Speaker 4: of my transcripts and was cutting That's how old I am.
Speaker 4: I was cutting them at the beginning and the kitchen
Speaker 4: table with my husband, and somehow I needed to break
Speaker 4: it to see it in a new way and then oh,
Speaker 4: this voice actually goes with that person, so right. The
Speaker 4: idea was to sort of give it energy, people having
Speaker 4: a conversation, and then chapters sort of have a beginning
Speaker 4: and an end. Maybe they're sort of leading you into
Speaker 4: the next chapter. So I guess we just wanted to
Speaker 4: make it as lively and as possible and really sort
Speaker 4: of winnowing it down to anecdotes so people are really
Speaker 4: sharing stories.
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the book, you have an interview
Speaker 1: with someone Martha Bartlett, whose husband had set up Jackie
Speaker 1: and Jack Kennedy back when they were much younger. I
Speaker 1: think Jackie was just twenty one at the time and
Speaker 1: he was thirty three, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people might be surprised that then John Kennedy had no
Speaker 1: game like In fact, you quoted her saying, poor Jack
Speaker 1: was always making advances, half the time they were not accepted.
Speaker 1: He thought he was a great don juant, and most
Speaker 1: women didn't think of him as a great don juant.
Speaker 1: That made me laugh because I thought, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: this big Latharia, who you know, kind of was an
Speaker 1: awkward guy.
Speaker 4: Well, let's just say Martha is one tough lady. Okay,
Speaker 4: and she has survived a lot, so I will just
Speaker 4: leave it at that, Martha. That was Martha's take.
Speaker 5: She definitely knew them, and she's definitely out of that era.
Speaker 1: How old is Martha at this point.
Speaker 4: I'd say ninety five ninety six, and wow, Marth was
Speaker 4: going strong.
Speaker 1: Good for Martha and she you know, I know she
Speaker 1: also told you that Jackie knew from the get go
Speaker 1: that he was a big philanderer, but because of her
Speaker 1: father and his philandering ways, she wasn't that rattled by it.
Speaker 1: Is that accurate, Rose, Marie?
Speaker 3: I don't know about that. I think that might be
Speaker 3: Martha's opinion from what she saw. But you know, I
Speaker 3: think we all go into a new relationship, and I
Speaker 3: would imagine Jackie Kennedy did the same thing, hoping for
Speaker 3: the best and hoping that we have a great romance.
Speaker 3: And I think in a lot of ways they did.
Speaker 3: But I think that there's always you know, there are
Speaker 3: always the problems in pitfalls and relationships. So that's how
Speaker 3: I look at it. I think everybody goes it in
Speaker 3: hopeful and you know, really wide eyed about it. I hope,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: I think you're being very nice and diplomatic. It sounds
Speaker 1: like he was kind of a dog, but because her
Speaker 1: dad was kind of a dog that, at least according
Speaker 1: to Martha, she just dealt with it. In fact, Martha's
Speaker 1: quote is Jackie was used to philandering. It's all about
Speaker 1: what you're used to, you connect it with love. So
Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting insight into their relationship.
Speaker 1: And how did you take away from all the people
Speaker 1: with whom you spoke about their marriage in general? I
Speaker 1: thought it was sort of heartbreaking that Jackie lost her
Speaker 1: fourth child, because she had also lost a child earlier,
Speaker 1: Arabella was stillborn, and then her fourth child, Patrick died
Speaker 1: shortly after birth from respiratory distress. She was despondent, and
Speaker 1: she and according to whoever it was who was talking
Speaker 1: at this time in the book, decided to go to
Speaker 1: Dallas and to help her husband. And that person said
Speaker 1: that they seemed to be on much stronger ground and
Speaker 1: that the death of Patrick not only changed him, changed
Speaker 1: her obviously, but it changed them as a couple in
Speaker 1: a way. Right No.
Speaker 4: Clint Hill has said that the Secret Service agent who
Speaker 4: was with Jackie all the time, and he noticed more
Speaker 4: a little more tenderness between them, a little more closeness,
Speaker 4: and Martha had also noticed a change. So I mean, right,
Speaker 4: that's something unimaginable to go through something like that and
Speaker 4: what that does to a couple. So that was really
Speaker 4: touching anecdote there, and very heartbreaking, I thought, And it.
Speaker 3: Is heartbreaking because those things can go either way in
Speaker 3: a relationship, but either it can either bring you closer
Speaker 3: together or further apart. And I think it's, you know,
Speaker 3: just sad that happened that way. And then they went
Speaker 3: to Dallas.
Speaker 1: And then of course everything changed when President Kennedy was assassinated,
Speaker 1: and boy, the details in the book about that are
Speaker 1: so hero range. You know, it made me think and
Speaker 1: wonder about John and never knowing his dad really and
Speaker 1: it made me so sad that he couldn't read this
Speaker 1: book and the remembrances of people who saw him with
Speaker 1: his dad, and the part where his father knew that
Speaker 1: Jackie didn't really like the kids to be photographed, so
Speaker 1: when she went away, he would have the White House
Speaker 1: photographer come in because he knew people would love to
Speaker 1: see photos of the kids, and I guess he didn't
Speaker 1: feel as strongly about their privacy. And that's when that
Speaker 1: very famous photo of John John under the desk was
Speaker 1: taken when Jackie was out of the White House and
Speaker 1: the coast was clear, right yeah.
Speaker 3: And also, as Michael Shean says, John told him that
Speaker 3: his mother would not allow them to chew gum, so
Speaker 3: his father would always have gum for him, and he
Speaker 3: had it under his desk, and that's how John got
Speaker 3: under there to get the gone.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. He was a little young to be
Speaker 1: chewing gum, wasn't he. I mean he was how old?
Speaker 3: Was he?
Speaker 1: Two or three years old at the time?
Speaker 3: And even three? It was guy.
Speaker 1: When we come back. How the nineteen sixty three assassination
Speaker 1: of President Kennedy when John was only three, strengthened his
Speaker 1: bonds with his mother, Jackie and his sister Caroline. If
Speaker 1: you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown
Speaker 1: of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness
Speaker 1: and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake
Speaker 1: Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back
Speaker 1: with Rosemarie Trensio and Liz McNeil. After President Kennedy was assassinated. Clearly, John,
Speaker 1: Caroline and Jackie, I feel funny calling her by your
Speaker 1: first name. But anyway, they formed an extraordinary bond. They
Speaker 1: tell us about that.
Speaker 4: Liz, I was just thinking of something that Sasha Chair
Speaker 4: may have said. John's one of John's closest friends, and
Speaker 4: she called that sort of like a sacred space, sort
Speaker 4: of something that is, you know, almost impenetrable because they
Speaker 4: were so close. And I think there was another friend,
Speaker 4: Chris Oberbeck, John's roommate at Brown, who said, you know,
Speaker 4: those two women are those are the primary sort of
Speaker 4: influences in his life, right. It's his mother and his sister,
Speaker 4: So it's I don't think I have thought about it
Speaker 4: that way before, but when you think about it that way, right,
Speaker 4: those two relationships really form who he is. So I
Speaker 4: thought that was enlightening. I hadn't thought of John that way,
Speaker 4: like basically an unbreakable.
Speaker 1: Bond there also, I think probably having a certain respect
Speaker 1: for women. I know that one of his friends said
Speaker 1: he could have been out carousing, having one night stance.
Speaker 1: But he was really a serial monogamous when he got older,
Speaker 1: wasn't he?
Speaker 3: Yes, he was, And I think that his relationship with
Speaker 3: his mother and his sister or had a lot to
Speaker 3: do with that. I think he had a respect for women,
Speaker 3: and he didn't want to see women be hurt. He
Speaker 3: didn't want to be responsible for that. And I think
Speaker 3: his mother and his sister were the absolute biggest influences
Speaker 3: on his life, and their relationship was closer than anything
Speaker 3: any relationship I've ever seen. I think he had a
Speaker 3: tremendous amount of respect for women. I think he was
Speaker 3: cautious about not hurting people's feelings, especially women, because he wouldn't
Speaker 3: want to see his mom or his sister be hurt.
Speaker 3: You know, he adored those women. They and they really
Speaker 3: formed who he was. And Caroline was extremely protective of John,
Speaker 3: and he was of her.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you how Caroline feels or felt
Speaker 1: about the fact that you were putting this book together.
Speaker 1: Obviously she didn't participate, but there are photos of the
Speaker 1: two of them in the book that are really quite beautiful.
Speaker 3: I corresponded with her and she said, you know, look,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to participate, but thank you for letting
Speaker 3: me know, and good luck with it. There weren't didn't
Speaker 3: seem to be on my end from her any hard
Speaker 3: feelings about it. It's just not something that she would
Speaker 3: participate in. And I totally understand that, and I respect that.
Speaker 1: What about other family members, did you reach out to them?
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a big, big family.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we reached out to a few. I didn't go
Speaker 3: far and wide with the family because I thought I
Speaker 3: wanted to really have the people who were, you know,
Speaker 3: close to him and who he communicated with most often.
Speaker 3: But Carrie gave us a really beautiful, funny, you know,
Speaker 3: entry for the book, and I love it where she
Speaker 3: talks about the little kid who says, says, what's your name?
Speaker 3: And he says John? And he says John, what's your
Speaker 3: whole name? And he says John F. Kennedy. He says,
Speaker 3: do you know that you're named after an airport?
Speaker 1: That's so funny. Well, that's great that Carrie was able
Speaker 1: to give you something. But I think Caroline continues to
Speaker 1: be very protective of John, and you know you kind
Speaker 1: of alluded to this early on. But how do you
Speaker 1: think he'd feel about some of these personal stories and
Speaker 1: people talking about pretty intimate things in this book. Do
Speaker 1: you think he would be upset with.
Speaker 3: You at all?
Speaker 1: Or what do you think he would say if he
Speaker 1: were to walk into your room right now?
Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to think that, you know, anybody after
Speaker 3: they passed away would love to have their friends and
Speaker 3: their family members and their colleagues come together and remember
Speaker 3: them and tell beautiful stories about them and share their
Speaker 3: memories so that they're not forgotten.
Speaker 4: It's interesting, right because John was a member of our profession, right,
Speaker 4: so he becomes an editor in chief, and I think
Speaker 4: as a journalist, right, it was I think we wanted
Speaker 4: to have this element of truth, but also to have
Speaker 4: a lot of heart, and I feel like the book
Speaker 4: does that. But I think you there has to be
Speaker 4: an element of truth, like we had to if these
Speaker 4: stories were shared with us and everything was done in balance,
Speaker 4: like I felt, for me, it made me just have
Speaker 4: a much better understanding of him, more empathy, more fondness
Speaker 4: for him.
Speaker 5: So that was our intent.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about his relationship with the father. He never
Speaker 1: really knew how difficult was that for him to navigate
Speaker 1: this the mythology of his father, the larger than life
Speaker 1: figure that his dad was, with his own development as
Speaker 1: a person. You watched him, I think probably struggle with
Speaker 1: that at times. What was that like?
Speaker 3: I don't know that he struggled with being part of
Speaker 3: a legacy or a mythology. He didn't see it that way.
Speaker 3: He saw it as this is my family. They're not
Speaker 3: a legacy to me. They're not a mythology to me.
Speaker 3: They're my family. I think what was interesting about what
Speaker 3: I learned from the book was all of the little
Speaker 3: sort of pieces that came together on him really kind
Speaker 3: of searching to have a better understanding and a deeper
Speaker 3: understanding of his father and really sort of getting to
Speaker 3: know him through all the various people and things that
Speaker 3: he did. And on one of those is you know,
Speaker 3: George Magazine. I mean, he really he interviews people who
Speaker 3: are I mean, he goes in visits with the Fidel
Speaker 3: Castro and asks him for an interview. He you know,
Speaker 3: he sort of wants to understand his father and his
Speaker 3: father's presidency, and I think you can see that throughout
Speaker 3: the book, and it's I think it was probably really
Speaker 3: tough for him to know that the whole world, you know,
Speaker 3: knew his father, and many people had memories of his
Speaker 3: father that he didn't have. And I think that he
Speaker 3: appreciated the affinity that people had for his father and
Speaker 3: the affection, but I think it was probably difficult for
Speaker 3: him not to have his own memories and not to
Speaker 3: have his own connection as an adult.
Speaker 1: Liz, what about the pressures on him to be a
Speaker 1: really important figure in American society. How tough was that.
Speaker 1: It seemed like he was trying to find his way working.
Speaker 1: You know, he decided he didn't want to be a lawyer.
Speaker 1: He then decided he wanted to be a magazine editor.
Speaker 1: He was in the throes of getting support, even more support,
Speaker 1: making sure that George could continue when he died. How
Speaker 1: much do you think that weighed on him. I remember
Speaker 1: reading the New York Post articles every time he failed
Speaker 1: the bar and I thought, God, that's so tough to
Speaker 1: have everyone in the world know that you failed the
Speaker 1: bar exam because he took it? What how many times?
Speaker 5: List three?
Speaker 1: Three was the third time? A charm? Yes, okay, good,
Speaker 1: thank god? But I mean, talk about what you learned
Speaker 1: from people you interviewed, but also just from covering him,
Speaker 1: this enormous pressure he felt.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's always interesting with him, and I think
Speaker 4: there's sort of I felt like he's always sort of
Speaker 4: breaking free, you know, doing his own thing. And one
Speaker 4: thing that I always marvel at is like when I
Speaker 4: think about his level of fame and who he was,
Speaker 4: and there's almost like no protection, you know, because you're
Speaker 4: a journalist. There's no doorman, there's no manager. He has Rose,
Speaker 4: who's incredibly loyal and protective. But he was very much
Speaker 4: part of the world, part of New York City. So
Speaker 4: that was always interesting, and it did seem like there
Speaker 4: was this element of breaking free, whether it was going
Speaker 4: to Brown, traveling, just being amongst everyone right, definitely not
Speaker 4: seeking protection, or definitely like out and about.
Speaker 5: So that's sort of fascinating.
Speaker 4: And yet it seems like at the end, I think
Speaker 4: Steve Gillen said that he was John's biographer and a
Speaker 4: friend of John's, and he wrote a great book about John,
Speaker 4: called America's Electant Prince, and he said that John throughout
Speaker 4: his life said I don't want to do what people
Speaker 4: expect me to do. His life is a lot like
Speaker 4: that out in Central Park, you know, found founding George.
Speaker 4: But then he was saying that at the end of
Speaker 4: his life, or it would be in the middle of
Speaker 4: his life, John sort of is coming to this moment
Speaker 4: where maybe he is going to do what people expect
Speaker 4: him to do, but maybe he had to come to
Speaker 4: that moment himself, right, which is maybe sort of what
Speaker 4: this book is sort of about, sort of how he figures.
Speaker 1: It out himself. He was accosted by headlines in the
Speaker 1: New York Posts like hunk flunks and all kinds of
Speaker 1: things when he did not pass the bar exam, and
Speaker 1: the book makes clear that he most certainly got into
Speaker 1: Brown because of his name. So I was curious how
Speaker 1: you all felt about his intellect and was he sensitive
Speaker 1: about this notion that he wasn't maybe the sharpest tool
Speaker 1: in the shed. I think that's you know, I think
Speaker 1: those girl had an object to that. Rosemary God.
Speaker 3: I do because I knew him, and I knew he
Speaker 3: was extremely intelligent, very wise, very tempered, and you know,
Speaker 3: you have to also understand like at that time in
Speaker 3: his life after college, he's studying or not studying for
Speaker 3: the bar exam. You know, people fail things all the time,
Speaker 3: but it's not on the front page of the New
Speaker 3: York Post as you're you know, going down the street.
Speaker 3: And I think those things were upsetting to him and
Speaker 3: it hurt him. But I also think that John throughout
Speaker 3: his life had seen that those things, as he always said,
Speaker 3: as my and he said it in the letter to
Speaker 3: Mike Tyson you know, today's headlines are lining tomorrow's trash cans,
Speaker 3: and no amount of bad press is going to change
Speaker 3: you know, your life if the people around you love
Speaker 3: and respect you. And I think he lived life that way.
Speaker 3: And I think he really did have an incredible eq.
Speaker 3: You know, he had a way of walking into a
Speaker 3: room and knowing exactly what was happening and who was
Speaker 3: who and how to treat, you know, how people. You know,
Speaker 3: he had this thing where he would go to the
Speaker 3: shyest person in the room or the person who was
Speaker 3: in the corner, and that's the person he would introduce
Speaker 3: himself to. A person who seemed the most uncomfortable he
Speaker 3: would introduce himself to. So it was like those kind
Speaker 3: of things you're not you know, you're not dumb. And
Speaker 3: I would also add.
Speaker 6: That probably another thing, Katie, and another thing, Katie, probably
Speaker 6: half of the celebrities in the country's children got into
Speaker 6: their colleges because of their parents' names.
Speaker 3: But that said, you know, no, he wasn't Caroline, he
Speaker 3: wasn't an academic, but he he certainly wasn't, you know, dumb.
Speaker 1: I think people, they're all kinds of intelligence, right, and
Speaker 1: I think people can be deeply intelligent and perceptive, but
Speaker 1: not necessarily academic. So it sounds like he fell into
Speaker 1: that category. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And John was one of those annoying people where if
Speaker 3: it didn't interest him, he didn't put on a you know,
Speaker 3: he is kind of like a kid that way. If
Speaker 3: it wasn't super interesting to him, he didn't you know,
Speaker 3: he didn't give it at all.
Speaker 1: This free spirit that he seemed to possess, you know,
Speaker 1: rollerblading and someone described him rollerblading down Columbus with a
Speaker 1: big pizza box over his head and really kind of
Speaker 1: just being very open and vulnerable and out there. Do
Speaker 1: you think that was the result of his mom's desire
Speaker 1: to have him live a normal life, because I know
Speaker 1: that was really important to her.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think part of it was that. I think
Speaker 3: that's where the seed of it was planted. But I
Speaker 3: think for John, he was in constant, perpetual. That was John.
Speaker 3: He was not a guy to sit still. He was
Speaker 3: not a guy to you know. He wanted to be
Speaker 3: in the thick of it. As a friend of his
Speaker 3: said when we opened the book, John wanted to be
Speaker 3: on the dance floor with everybody. He didn't want to
Speaker 3: be behind the ropes in the VIP section. He found
Speaker 3: that boring. He felt like he was part of New
Speaker 3: York and he belonged in New York, like I belong here.
Speaker 3: I'm not some Ivory Tower person that doesn't belong in
Speaker 3: the mix. He wanted to be in the mix. He
Speaker 3: loved being around the city, he loved doing things that
Speaker 3: were interesting. But also he was very you know, athletic.
Speaker 3: He looked run around and exercise. I mean, he had that,
Speaker 3: but he also had the idea that experiences happened, you know,
Speaker 3: when you're in the thick of it, and John wanted
Speaker 3: to have a life full of really rich experiences.
Speaker 1: I know that one entry talked about the impact Jackie
Speaker 1: Kennedy's death from lymphoma had on her son and it
Speaker 1: really changed him in many ways. Can you talk about that, Liz.
Speaker 4: Yeah, remember that interview, and it was from a very
Speaker 4: close friend of John, somebody who had known him really
Speaker 4: his entire life, and it really said I think his
Speaker 4: phrase was that his wings came out or something like that,
Speaker 4: that it was sort of, you know, there was like
Speaker 4: tremendous sadness at the loss of his mom, but there
Speaker 4: maybe there was also some kind of freedom that also
Speaker 4: came with it, and that basically there was he sort
Speaker 4: of became more of an adult, I guess, and that's
Speaker 4: what and was sort of ready to take on new things.
Speaker 4: So I think it was heartbreaking. And Rose was just
Speaker 4: getting to know John at that time, so she would
Speaker 4: probably know more than I. But I do remember the
Speaker 4: friend saying, right, that was sort of a time for
Speaker 4: his wings to come out.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, he dated a lot of women. Unfortunately never asked
Speaker 1: me out, much to my chagrin. But I think I
Speaker 1: was married when I met him. I mean, my god,
Speaker 1: I did I did I mention I had a crush
Speaker 1: on him? I think I did a few times in
Speaker 1: the book. But you know, tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about his relationships. Did anything surprise you that you learned?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know he had a girlfriend in the eighties.
Speaker 1: I guess maybe who went to Brown with him. He
Speaker 1: dated Sarah Jessica Parker. Give us a little tea, ladies.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 3: One of the things that I think was interesting that
Speaker 3: we discovered and that we you know, we kind of
Speaker 3: knew but not really was there was a lot of overlap.
Speaker 3: So he wouldn't just break off, be single and then
Speaker 3: meet somebody else. He always kind of had overlap between girlfriends,
Speaker 3: so it wasn't completely over, but he was sort of
Speaker 3: starting with somebody else.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I like that term overlap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was sure because I would not want to be
Speaker 1: one of the overlap girls in either direction. Probably, But
Speaker 1: do you think that's because he didn't want to hurt
Speaker 1: their feelings or what was going on there with this
Speaker 1: overlap situation?
Speaker 5: I mean, Rose I recall that.
Speaker 4: I think in those instances it was sort of when
Speaker 4: a relationship was ending.
Speaker 5: And there was one friend who was unnamed in the
Speaker 5: book who.
Speaker 4: Talked about that John couldn't really be single because this
Speaker 4: person said that he would actually get calls from like
Speaker 4: members of royal families wanting to fix them up, and.
Speaker 3: That was surprising why there was this sort of overlap,
Speaker 3: why he was never really single. It was like, well,
Speaker 3: he would be inundated with calls from you know.
Speaker 1: Heads of state or people fathers or women themselves. John
Speaker 1: much better than Hinge exactly.
Speaker 3: Like he didn't even have to do and read it.
Speaker 5: He didn't need it.
Speaker 1: After this break, JFK. Junior meets Princess Diana and they
Speaker 1: form an instant connection as reluctant public figures now more
Speaker 1: with Liz McNeil and Rose Marie Crencio. Team met with
Speaker 1: Princess Diana at the Carlisle. Tell us about that that.
Speaker 3: Was our most famous caper, trying to get in and
Speaker 3: out of there without getting noticed, which we did.
Speaker 1: How did that happen and what was going on with
Speaker 1: those two?
Speaker 3: He wanted her to be on the cover of George
Speaker 3: and she was going to be in New York and
Speaker 3: he was going over there to meet her and present
Speaker 3: her with these sketches that Matt Burman or creative director
Speaker 3: had done, you know, depicting what we would want to
Speaker 3: do on the cover and how she would appear. And
Speaker 3: you know, he went and met with her at the
Speaker 3: Carlisle and she was there for a charity dinner and
Speaker 3: her private secretary Patrick Jah at the time, and I,
Speaker 3: you know, hatched the plan and we went over like
Speaker 3: in the middle of the day, and I went with him,
Speaker 3: and I walked in with him and waited downstairs, and
Speaker 3: you know, he was up there for about I don't know,
Speaker 3: maybe an hour, and they chatted and they said hello,
Speaker 3: and they talked about various things, and he made his
Speaker 3: little pitch for George and.
Speaker 1: Did Sparks fly.
Speaker 3: No, they did not.
Speaker 1: And she was married at the time, yes, Or was
Speaker 1: she divorced. No, I think she was coming out of
Speaker 1: her marriage.
Speaker 3: But he was solidly with Carolyn at the time, and
Speaker 3: it was it was kind of all business, you know.
Speaker 3: And as Patrick describes it, like she in the book,
Speaker 3: you know, she she had this sort of empathy for him.
Speaker 3: She saw him as vulnerable and as someone you know
Speaker 3: that she had empathy for because I think she probably
Speaker 3: related to his situation.
Speaker 1: In fact, she later wrote him a note about the paparazzi, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she said, I hope the paparazzi are leaving you alone.
Speaker 3: If you can believe it. They're much worse here. I'm paraphrasing,
Speaker 3: but it was just it was very you know, poignant.
Speaker 3: But it was a situation where like, if it had
Speaker 3: gotten out exactly what you said, did Sparks, why, it
Speaker 3: would have been this whole tabloid frenzy of John and
Speaker 3: Princess Diana dating. And that was not the case. So
Speaker 3: we got there and decided let's just walk in the
Speaker 3: front door instead of trying to go in a side
Speaker 3: entrance because they're probably waiting for her at the side entrance,
Speaker 3: so we walked right in the front of the Carlisle
Speaker 3: completely unnoticed.
Speaker 1: Did he like her? Did he think she was nice?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he thought she was lovely. He thought she was
Speaker 3: very shy. He said she had great legs, and he,
Speaker 3: you know, I think he was disappointed that she said no,
Speaker 3: but he understood.
Speaker 1: Speaking of overlap, I know he was seeing Daryl Hannah
Speaker 1: when he met Carolyn, and so he was balancing those
Speaker 1: two relationships for a pretty long time, right. I don't
Speaker 1: think he was in both relationships at the same time.
Speaker 3: I think that he and Daryl were on and off,
Speaker 3: and I think when they were back on, he you know,
Speaker 3: he and Daryl decided to give it. From what I
Speaker 3: understand from his friends, they decided to give it one
Speaker 3: more shot, and she was going to move to New
Speaker 3: York and it didn't work out. It was sort of
Speaker 3: at the end of that relationship. The second time around
Speaker 3: that he meets Carolyn and they form a relationship, and
Speaker 3: then he and Daryl break up and he ends up
Speaker 3: with Carolyn.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about Carolyn Beset because you
Speaker 1: got to know her very well. Rose Marie as most
Speaker 1: executive assistants or chiefs of staff do because they have
Speaker 1: intimate knowledge and it's really they talk to you all
Speaker 1: the time and are with you constantly. And I think
Speaker 1: most people you know, have demanding jobs become very very
Speaker 1: close to their assistance. What was she like.
Speaker 3: She was great. I mean, Carolyn was She was so smart,
Speaker 3: she was funny. She was also very protective of John.
Speaker 3: I think she instinctually knew from the beginning when she
Speaker 3: saw sort of what his life was like, that he
Speaker 3: could be vulnerable, and he could be vulnerable to people
Speaker 3: and people who weren't always trustworthy, and she felt this
Speaker 3: sort of mama bear instinct of protecting him. And I
Speaker 3: think he loved that. I think he loved that she
Speaker 3: did that. And I also think that they were, you know,
Speaker 3: they were buddies. They were like, you know, they would
Speaker 3: go home and giggle and gossip about the day, and
Speaker 3: they'd poke fun at each other and tease each other
Speaker 3: all the time. And I think he loved that. I
Speaker 3: think he had a relationship with her that was, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of also a solid friendship.
Speaker 1: In fact, Gary Ginsberg, his friend from law school, told
Speaker 1: you Carolyn had all the discernment that John Black like, honey,
Speaker 1: he's playing you, or Honey, you don't need to do that.
Speaker 1: She was the eyes and ears that he sometimes didn't have.
Speaker 1: Part of John's charm was he would say yes to
Speaker 1: a lot of things. She brought a certain discipline to that.
Speaker 1: So she was kind of the bad comp it sounds
Speaker 1: like in the relationship in some ways she was.
Speaker 3: And I think that was hard for her because I
Speaker 3: think she got a lot of the heat for when
Speaker 3: he started to say no and when he became a
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, less available to people, especially after
Speaker 3: they got married. As you know, many of us know,
Speaker 3: you get married, you're not as out and about, you're
Speaker 3: not as available, you're not hanging out with your buddies
Speaker 3: all the time. And I think I think there was
Speaker 3: some resentment from people, you know, towards Carolyn because of that,
Speaker 3: because of the fact that she was protective, and also
Speaker 3: because of the fact that John was being sort of
Speaker 3: taken away from people.
Speaker 1: Right you can see that happening, right, People starting to
Speaker 1: resent her because she brought some as Gary said, discipline
Speaker 1: into the relationship and obviously he couldn't do everything. He
Speaker 1: sounds like he was almost like a Labrador retriever he
Speaker 1: was friendly and wanted to please people, but she was
Speaker 1: able to rein him in in a good way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she also was able to say to him like,
Speaker 3: why are you doing it? Why are you going? Or
Speaker 3: she wanted him to sort of come to it on
Speaker 3: his own, but she was sort of the catalyst for that.
Speaker 3: And she would very much like say to him I
Speaker 3: don't think you should go, and here's why, or I
Speaker 3: don't think you should do that and here's why. And
Speaker 3: they had heated discussion sometimes about it. But she was,
Speaker 3: you know, she was really it was always about his
Speaker 3: best interest.
Speaker 1: And after all, she did have a career in pr,
Speaker 1: so she understood how the press worked. So probably her
Speaker 1: her council was probably pretty helpful to him at times.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask Liz about the wedding because that
Speaker 1: photo of them emerging on Cumberland Island off the host
Speaker 1: of Georgia is so iconic. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about that photo and why it was so captivating.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, you know, as we were reporting the
Speaker 4: story or reporting the details, it was like no detail
Speaker 4: was too small because this was such a magical wedding.
Speaker 4: And Rose spoke to go go Ferguson who's the woman
Speaker 4: who runs the Gray Field in which is where the
Speaker 4: guests stayed and they had the dinner and she sort
Speaker 4: of helped arrange. Just these details were so magical. And
Speaker 4: I remember Go Go described Carolyn's dress as she said
Speaker 4: she looked like a Kali lily, and I just thought, oh, like,
Speaker 4: it's so beautiful and what a perfect description. And then
Speaker 4: there's another place where she said it was like cream
Speaker 4: was porto for her body, and I thought, wow, that's
Speaker 4: an incredible description. So they're all these beautiful details, and
Speaker 4: you know, and Rose was very involved in, you know,
Speaker 4: in some of that, and there was like this element
Speaker 4: of not di I y. But you know, when you
Speaker 4: think about these big weddings that we report.
Speaker 1: On and wedding planners and like my daughters go on.
Speaker 4: Roses printing out the taking late at night at the
Speaker 4: George office and.
Speaker 3: Printing out the programs at the George office on the printer,
Speaker 3: you know, at ten o'clock at night, because we couldn't
Speaker 3: send them somewhere to be printed. It would we were
Speaker 3: afraid it wouldn't get out, you know. And also, as
Speaker 3: you probably know, Katie, Cumberland is an island, so everything
Speaker 3: has to be shipped there. You can't, you know, it
Speaker 3: has to be ferried over. So it had to be
Speaker 3: coordinated that way. And I think just the fact that
Speaker 3: they decided to do it the way they did it,
Speaker 3: which was forty people, their closest friends and family members,
Speaker 3: and it really made it special.
Speaker 1: It really made it unique and special.
Speaker 4: One thing I learned from doing this book with Rose
Speaker 4: is that Rose is the one who basically chooses that
Speaker 4: photo to be released by that incredible photo that was
Speaker 4: so magical. So I mean, you know, most people, as
Speaker 4: you know, there'd be pouring over hundreds of photos that
Speaker 4: perhaps it'd be a little air touching or retouching, and
Speaker 4: you know, this was definitely not chosen that way. So Rose,
Speaker 4: you should share a little bit about how you chose
Speaker 4: that photo.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the photographer Dennis Reggie, I mean, what
Speaker 3: a beautiful, what beautiful images he captured, I mean, he
Speaker 3: was phenomenal. That photo of them in the church, that unbelievable.
Speaker 3: But I think there were two options. And when I
Speaker 3: spoke to Carolyn after the wedding and she said, which
Speaker 3: one do you like? I don't know, I trust you
Speaker 3: you can pick it. And I thought, oh, really, Wow,
Speaker 3: they were very similar, but there was just something about
Speaker 3: that look on her face of just pure joy, and
Speaker 3: he just looked like he was he was blissful, and
Speaker 3: it was just beautiful. It was perfect.
Speaker 1: My other favorite picture of them is when she's wearing
Speaker 1: sort of a kind of a halter top with some
Speaker 1: sort of design on the front and his jacket.
Speaker 3: The choker. Yea, it's the it's part of the design
Speaker 3: of the shirt and it's a jumpsup actually, and she
Speaker 3: has a jacket.
Speaker 1: On and he's behind her. I just think that is
Speaker 1: such a beautiful photo. There are many beautiful photos in
Speaker 1: the book. I can't let you go without talking about
Speaker 1: sadly their untimely deaths, because this book is coming out
Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth anniversary July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1: Rose Marie, you were actually staying at John and Carolyn's apartment,
Speaker 1: and I know Carol Ratziwell, who was married to Anthony
Speaker 1: who passed away from cancer. She called you and said
Speaker 1: they hadn't arrived yet. What did you think when you
Speaker 1: got that call.
Speaker 3: I honestly thought Carol was mistaken, and I thought, well,
Speaker 3: they went somewhere else, or they went they just haven't
Speaker 3: arrived yet. They left later. Maybe they stopped in Nantucket
Speaker 3: because they had some friends who were going to be
Speaker 3: in Nantucket that night, and I thought maybe they stopped there.
Speaker 3: I never in a million years imagined it was unimaginable
Speaker 3: to think that they were gone, and I did not
Speaker 3: think that at all. I just thought it was some
Speaker 3: sort of fluke, some sort of you know, it will
Speaker 3: resolve itself in the next few hours. And I was
Speaker 3: actually thinking to myself when Carol said she called the Coastguard.
Speaker 3: I thought, oh God, he's going to kill me if
Speaker 3: this becomes a crazy media frenzy, you know story. That's
Speaker 3: what I kept thinking. You know, he's going to think,
Speaker 3: I'm he's going to think we've all overreacted and gone
Speaker 3: gone mad when he finally reserved, when they finally resurfaced
Speaker 3: and they're like, what did you do? What are you
Speaker 3: talking about? We're fine. I never imagined that it would
Speaker 3: be that it would be that it was. It was
Speaker 3: literally unimaginable. And I remember it was we were into
Speaker 3: the next day and I still wasn't, you know, totally there.
Speaker 3: And then I think it was Saturday night. I spoke
Speaker 3: to his cousin Bobby, and he said he must think
Speaker 3: somebody must have said something to him, like Rose doesn't
Speaker 3: think they're missing or they're gone, or you know, she
Speaker 3: still thinks that there might be a chance. And he said,
Speaker 3: you know, Rose Marie, he said John's not coming back.
Speaker 3: And I just thought, oh my god. I mean, I
Speaker 3: could cry now just thinking about it. But it was
Speaker 3: just there was a finality to that. And he was
Speaker 3: so lovely and so sweet to me, and so was
Speaker 3: his wife Mary, and they were really really amazing to
Speaker 3: me throughout the whole thing. But when he said that
Speaker 3: John's not coming back, I just thought it was it
Speaker 3: really struck me, and it shocked me, even though I
Speaker 3: guess on some level I knew.
Speaker 1: You had a very heartbreaking conversation with Carolyn's mom. Was
Speaker 1: that on that Friday night?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was at about one o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 3: so technically Saturday morning and her maybe it was midnight,
Speaker 3: I can't remember, but she called and she had obviously
Speaker 3: heard or Carol had called her. I don't remember how
Speaker 3: she was alerted, but she was just panic stricken and
Speaker 3: I was trying anything I could to give her hope
Speaker 3: and to keep her, to keep her calm because I
Speaker 3: didn't want her to panic either, and I just said,
Speaker 3: I'm getting I'm trying to find out as much as
Speaker 3: I can. Please don't panic, don't think the worst. I'll
Speaker 3: keep calling you. I think I was calling her every
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes with any update I could give her. She
Speaker 3: was panicked, as any mother would be.
Speaker 1: She said something to you that just broke my heart
Speaker 1: when I read it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she said I told him never to take two
Speaker 3: of my daughters up at the same time.
Speaker 1: Because Carolyn was with her sister Lauren.
Speaker 3: Yes, Lauren was getting a ride to She was staying
Speaker 3: with friends on Martha's Vineyard that weekend, and they were
Speaker 3: going to drop Lauren in Martha's Vineyard and then had
Speaker 3: Tyana's for Rory's wedding next day.
Speaker 1: She was really upset and angry at John. Do you
Speaker 1: know if she had that conversation with him, or was
Speaker 1: that your only knowledge of her the agreement she thought
Speaker 1: she had made with him. I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't have any knowledge of the conversation that she
Speaker 3: had with John. I just I just know what she
Speaker 3: said to me that night.
Speaker 1: When you heard that. What was your reaction, you know, Katie,
Speaker 1: at the time, I did. It didn't register with me
Speaker 1: because I was so I was.
Speaker 3: Trying so hard to keep her calm and to make
Speaker 3: sure that she was okay, and to try and find
Speaker 3: out as much as I could. And like I said,
Speaker 3: it hadn't really registered with me yet that they were gone.
Speaker 3: I just I didn't. I really didn't think they were gone.
Speaker 1: Did you have any dealings with Carolyn and Lauren's mother
Speaker 1: after that?
Speaker 3: Yeah. We stayed in touch for a few years, and
Speaker 3: then you know, life starts to happen and go on.
Speaker 3: And I think for Anne Freeman, it was difficult for
Speaker 3: her to stay in touch with us, with her friend,
Speaker 3: with Carolyn's friends, and with you know, John's friends and
Speaker 3: people that she knew, because it was a reminder, and
Speaker 3: I think that had to be really difficult for her.
Speaker 1: Was she angry at him? I would be furious. I
Speaker 1: think I'm sure she was. I can't see how she
Speaker 1: wouldn't be. I can't imagine any mother not being angry
Speaker 1: with the person who was flying the plane in that situation.
Speaker 3: How could you not be?
Speaker 1: In the book, it makes pretty clear that maybe John
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been flying that plane that night, that it
Speaker 1: was late, that it got dark and foggy, and as
Speaker 1: he turned into the ocean after hugging the coastline on
Speaker 1: the flight, that he needed to rely on instruments, and
Speaker 1: yet he hadn't had enough instrument training. Apparently, according to
Speaker 1: reports after the crash, he'd only completed fifty percent of
Speaker 1: formal instrument training. So was he being irresponsible that night?
Speaker 1: I hate to say that, because no, I understand. Here
Speaker 1: to defend himself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand, and I think I think what my
Speaker 3: take and I'm not an expert, but I think what
Speaker 3: my take on it was was that the intention was
Speaker 3: always to fly at a certain time and leave at
Speaker 3: a certain time and get there at a certain time.
Speaker 3: And I don't think John intentionally went into the situation
Speaker 3: thinking I don't care what the weather is, I don't
Speaker 3: care what I don't think that that was his mindset. Ever.
Speaker 3: I think that as the circumstances unfolded, he found himself
Speaker 3: in that situation. And I know that he did check
Speaker 3: the weather always before he left, he checked a website
Speaker 3: called Pilot Brief that would give detailed updated information on
Speaker 3: the weather for pilots. And I think by the time
Speaker 3: he got to the airport, and probably even after he
Speaker 3: took off, or shortly before he took off, the weather
Speaker 3: situation had turned into something that was dangerous.
Speaker 1: Carolyn Bessett was somewhat vilified for her role in making
Speaker 1: John late in the aftermath of the crash. Do you
Speaker 1: feel like she was treated unfairly.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's ridiculous to think that Carolyn was
Speaker 3: responsible for that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't that sort of circulating.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was something about matching a swatch to a
Speaker 3: dress and nail polish. Carolyn would never something about lavender
Speaker 3: nail polish. First of all, Carolyn would never wear left
Speaker 3: or nail polish.
Speaker 1: But that aside.
Speaker 3: They all left at the same time, Carolyn, you know,
Speaker 3: I called her a car at the same time to
Speaker 3: pick her up. At the same time Lauren and John
Speaker 3: were leaving Manhattan, So it's not like anyone got to
Speaker 3: the airport and was waiting for someone else. They all
Speaker 3: arrived around the same time. The traffic was hllacious by
Speaker 3: the time they left, and I think that the weather
Speaker 3: had started to turn. But it wasn't clear when he
Speaker 3: got to the airport and when he was ready to
Speaker 3: take off that the weather had gotten so bad it
Speaker 3: wasn't clear to him. But Carolyn being late, she wasn't late.
Speaker 3: They all arrived around the same time.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that happened? Was that a continuation
Speaker 1: of sort of the resentment some people had toward her,
Speaker 1: or that she was cramping his style, or you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know where did that come from.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's that, or if it's that
Speaker 3: people felt like there needed to be a reason because
Speaker 3: it seemed so unimaginable, it seemed so heartbreaking, and for
Speaker 3: it just to have been an accident sometimes is not
Speaker 3: enough for people.
Speaker 1: So there needs to be well, if this hadn't happened.
Speaker 3: I mean, we all do that circumstances in our lives,
Speaker 3: you know, we look back and say, well, if only
Speaker 3: I had done this, or if only I had done that,
Speaker 3: or maybe it would have turned out better, maybe I
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been in this situation. And I think people
Speaker 3: need a reason why something like this happens because it's
Speaker 3: so catastrophic.
Speaker 1: Liz, several people in the book intimate that John and
Speaker 1: Carolyn's marriage was not in a great place in the
Speaker 1: last year or so before they were killed. From reading
Speaker 1: and talking to people, what do you think about that assessment.
Speaker 4: Well, they were under an incredible amount of stress, you know,
Speaker 4: in those last few months, right Anthony's death and pending death,
Speaker 4: difficulties at George, trying to find funding, difficulties in the marriage,
Speaker 4: and then John's also thinking about politics at the same time.
Speaker 5: So they were, right.
Speaker 4: From speaking to a lot of friends, they were going
Speaker 4: through a difficult time. But you know what's so interesting
Speaker 4: about them, and every time I write about them, is
Speaker 4: that Carolyn gets on the plane, you know, and she
Speaker 4: is going to the family wedding with John and makes
Speaker 4: this gesture of reconciliation. And I think there was one
Speaker 4: friend of John's who said this was pulled to us
Speaker 4: by another friend that said that if somebody says that
Speaker 4: they know what was going to happen in the marriage,
Speaker 4: they're lying because even John and Carolyn didn't know.
Speaker 5: So I just try to keep an open.
Speaker 4: Mind, you know, as we were writing about it, and
Speaker 4: the truth is, we don't know. But she makes a gesture,
Speaker 4: a very big one, I think, to go on the
Speaker 4: plane and to be at the family wedding, and that
Speaker 4: was very significant.
Speaker 1: Rose Marie, I think you're in probably the best position
Speaker 1: to tell us about their relationship. What was going on
Speaker 1: at that time.
Speaker 3: I think they were having difficulties. As Liis mentioned, Anthony
Speaker 3: was dying, there was the pressure from to find investors
Speaker 3: for George magazine. They were looking to leave the city
Speaker 3: they wanted. I mean, they were staying in the city,
Speaker 3: but they were looking for a house outside the city
Speaker 3: because they were talking about starting a family. And I
Speaker 3: think that there were I mean, the way I look
Speaker 3: at it, they had a couple of weeks of you know,
Speaker 3: fighting and not being on the same page, but they
Speaker 3: still were going to look at this this house outside
Speaker 3: of New York. They were still they still wanted that
Speaker 3: appointment at the real estate agent. And I think that
Speaker 3: they the fact that they decided to do marriage counseling
Speaker 3: was a sign that they wanted this to work, and
Speaker 3: they wanted and I don't know that there's a marriage
Speaker 3: that exists without difficulties, especially three years in with all
Speaker 3: of the pressures that they had, including how public their
Speaker 3: lives were. And I think they were trying to rain
Speaker 3: things in and get on the same page. But yeah,
Speaker 3: they were. It was difficult, you know, the last few
Speaker 3: weeks were tumultuous and difficult, but they were together.
Speaker 1: What were their major differences in terms of how they
Speaker 1: lived their lives. Was John more comfortable kind of in
Speaker 1: the spotlight and Carolyn less so or what do you
Speaker 1: think were the differences that were creating this strain.
Speaker 3: I think one of the major differences was that John
Speaker 3: had this, oh, suck it up and get on with
Speaker 3: it attitude, and Carolyn wanted to be heard and understood
Speaker 3: and she wanted some empathy for what she was going through,
Speaker 3: and John saw that as Oh, come on, people have
Speaker 3: it so much more, you know, like your life's not
Speaker 3: so bad, you know that kind of thing. I mean,
Speaker 3: my husband does that to me. And I wanted to choke.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it sounds like a typical Yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of sounds like a Venus and Mars type thing.
Speaker 3: Yes, it absolutely was. But it was also the fact
Speaker 3: that I think what complicated it was that it was
Speaker 3: frustrating because John had lived his whole life that way.
Speaker 3: He didn't know it any other way. So even if
Speaker 3: he wanted to be able to explain to her how
Speaker 3: to deal with it, he didn't have a playbook because
Speaker 3: he didn't know it any other way. And it was
Speaker 3: frustrating to her because she wanted him to sort of
Speaker 3: take her by the hand a little bit and say,
Speaker 3: I get it, it's crazy.
Speaker 4: I wanted to add as you were talking, was I
Speaker 4: was remembering, because one thing that surprised us as we
Speaker 4: were doing these interviews is that we ended up talking
Speaker 4: to some guys who work at a place called Croll Security.
Speaker 4: And this is really at the end of John's life,
Speaker 4: and they're looking for more security, and they actually speak
Speaker 4: openly about wanting to have a family, and by John
Speaker 4: never had security, and rose Aways said, right, because he
Speaker 4: thought that that would attract more attention. So he doesn't
Speaker 4: travel with any but there's they make a real serious
Speaker 4: effort to they meet with this it's called Kroll Associates
Speaker 4: or something.
Speaker 1: And then yes, they're a famous security company in New York.
Speaker 4: Yes, they were speaking with them. And then they also
Speaker 4: went back to one of their colleagues at the DA's
Speaker 4: office to possibly open up an investigation into some paparazzi
Speaker 4: that have been following Carolyn.
Speaker 5: So they were taking real steps.
Speaker 4: And I don't know if you're talking about a family
Speaker 4: talking about taking security. This is that very summer, so
Speaker 4: you know they were they were also contemplating, you know,
Speaker 4: lifestyle change, having a family. This is all happening at
Speaker 4: the same time.
Speaker 1: So sad. Where do you think they would have bought
Speaker 1: a house, Rose, Marie?
Speaker 3: They were looking outside the city. Near Sneeden's Landing was
Speaker 3: one place they were looking, and then there were a
Speaker 3: couple of other places I don't remember. There were I
Speaker 3: think one or two other areas that they were looking
Speaker 3: in outside the city. But one of the things about
Speaker 3: Sneeden's Landing that was that they looked at because John
Speaker 3: could kayak across the Hudson to the train and be
Speaker 3: in the city, and they wanted to be near the water.
Speaker 1: He was such a jock. I remember when I did
Speaker 1: that interview he rode his bike to the Today Show
Speaker 1: studios and I was like, what.
Speaker 3: He He did that to all of the Robinhood benefits too,
Speaker 3: where he would ride his bike and chain it up
Speaker 3: and tuckfeedout and cod. He also rode his bike with
Speaker 3: his roller blades on so he could have his roller
Speaker 3: blades with him at the office, so he would ride
Speaker 3: his bike with the roller blades on, and then not
Speaker 3: not on his feet, no, no, on his feet. Really yeah,
Speaker 3: I was actually trying to find a picture of that
Speaker 3: for the book where he's riding his bike with his
Speaker 3: rollerblades on.
Speaker 1: But you couldn't find it now, but I saw it.
Speaker 1: If John and Carolyn were alive today, they would be
Speaker 1: sixty four and fifty eight.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's so sad to me to hear that they
Speaker 1: were thinking about starting a family and moving and embarking
Speaker 1: on this new chapter in their lives despite all the
Speaker 1: difficulties of being public figures talking to a security company
Speaker 1: about the safety of their future children. What do you
Speaker 1: think would have happened? How do you think their lives
Speaker 1: would have unfolded in these twenty five years since their deaths.
Speaker 3: That's a really long answer, but I think, you know,
Speaker 3: I think it's difficult to say and predict, but I
Speaker 3: can't imagine what their lives and mind would have been
Speaker 3: like with social media, that's for sure. That's one thing.
Speaker 3: And the other thing is, you know, I think that
Speaker 3: they were you know, we talked about the eq of
Speaker 3: John and hers was just as off the charts as
Speaker 3: his was, and I think that they would have, you know,
Speaker 3: navigated their lives in a way that was manageable for
Speaker 3: both of them.
Speaker 1: Liz, do you think about what.
Speaker 4: If, how could you not think about what if, especially
Speaker 4: in these times, you know. And I think I think
Speaker 4: that John really represented a sort of an idealism and
Speaker 4: as did his parents for a lot of people, and.
Speaker 5: Almost that seems.
Speaker 4: Like like a foreign idea now I don't really think
Speaker 4: about right There's not a lot of idealism right now.
Speaker 4: And I think John really loved his country. So just
Speaker 4: as we wrote this book, you know, I did think.
Speaker 5: About that, and of course I think about what if.
Speaker 4: You know, he had this he just represented something so hopeful,
Speaker 4: you know, something so hopeful that was attached to him,
Speaker 4: like you felt good and you saw him. He was
Speaker 4: seemed like such a good person, and he had a
Speaker 4: real gift for friendship and a real empathy towards people.
Speaker 4: And I think you know what Rose was saying about
Speaker 4: going to the person in the corner of the room,
Speaker 4: or whether it's visiting Mike Tyson in prison when no
Speaker 4: one else will.
Speaker 5: So I do think about what if.
Speaker 4: And and he was a he represented a lot of hope,
Speaker 4: and I think even as we wrote about him, I mean,
Speaker 4: it was bittersweet to do this book, but.
Speaker 5: It made me.
Speaker 4: Hopeful in a way that that a person like him existed.
Speaker 1: That he was.
Speaker 4: I really felt that he was a really good soul
Speaker 4: and a good person.
Speaker 5: I hope that comes through.
Speaker 1: The book is called JFK. Junior, An intimate oral biography
Speaker 1: Rosemary Trencio and Liz McNeil. Thank you both for talking
Speaker 1: to me about it. It's a real trip down memory
Speaker 1: laying in so many ways, and it's a very loving,
Speaker 1: but honest I think portrayal of this man we lost
Speaker 1: way too soon, and of course his beautiful wife and
Speaker 1: her sister, and I always say I don't want Lauren
Speaker 1: Beset to be forgotten because she was on the plane
Speaker 1: that night too.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Katie, Thank you for having us,
Speaker 3: and thank you for participating in the book.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
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