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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. Well,

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Speaker 1: just a couple of months ago, I sat down with

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Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior for what turned out to be

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Speaker 1: his last television interview. Who would have ever thought the

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Speaker 1: occasion was the Profile Encourage Award given out by John

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Speaker 1: and his sister every year. As it happened, we did

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Speaker 1: not broadcast everything from that interview, so we wanted to

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Speaker 1: share the rest of it with you this morning. JFK

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Speaker 1: Junior's last interview May nineteen ninety nine. We were talking

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Speaker 1: about his mom. That was in the summer of nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine, when I was reporting from Hyanna Sport after

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Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Junior's plane went down. I still can't

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Speaker 1: believe that I conducted his last TV interview just months

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Speaker 1: before he.

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Speaker 2: Parented for both of them, and I think she was

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Speaker 2: deliberate in ensuring that his interest in his concerns were

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Speaker 2: part of our upbringing and some of her own which

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Speaker 2: were not his, And I think there was a dynamic

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Speaker 2: there that was healthy.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, it's so heartbreaking to listen to that even all

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Speaker 1: these years later. Today, July sixteenth is the twenty fifth anniversary.

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Speaker 1: Can you believe it of the shocking desks of JFK. Junior,

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Speaker 1: his wife Carolyn Bassett, and her sister Lauren. They're playing

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Speaker 1: piloted by John went down off the coast of Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: He was just thirty eight years old, Carolyn just thirty three,

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Speaker 1: and Lauren was thirty four. Was so much ahead of them. Today,

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Speaker 1: on this sad anniversary, we bring you a pair of

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Speaker 1: companion episodes about their lives. I spoke with the authors

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Speaker 1: of two new books. Once Upon a Time, written by

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Speaker 1: journalists Elizabeth Beller, focuses on Carolyn Bassett and her legacy.

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Speaker 1: Then there's JFK Jr. An intimate oral biography, a collection

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Speaker 1: of stories from some of John's close friends, compiled by

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Speaker 1: Rosemarie Torenzio, his longtime assistant and chief of staff, as

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Speaker 1: well as Liz McNeil of People Magazine. For the longest time,

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Speaker 1: no one close to John or Carolyn would talk much

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Speaker 1: about them. It seemed to be some kind of understanding

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Speaker 1: among their friends. But now twenty five years later, it

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Speaker 1: seems like many people who knew them are now willing

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Speaker 1: to open up and tell some stories about their lives.

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Speaker 1: What was it about John and Carolyn that made people

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Speaker 1: so fascinated by their every move. Did they somehow represent

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Speaker 1: both the past and the future? Was it a combination

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Speaker 1: of nostalgia and hope? It certainly was for me. I

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Speaker 1: was one of the legions of people absolutely captivated by them,

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Speaker 1: and of course one of the millions of women besotted

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Speaker 1: by John. Seeing that come to a sudden, senseless and

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Speaker 1: was just devastating. But thanks to these two new books,

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Speaker 1: in many ways, we get to know them all over

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Speaker 1: again and have a much better sense of who they

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Speaker 1: really were. First of all, Rose, Marie, and Liz, welcome

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Speaker 1: to next question. How are you both doing great?

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having us. We're excited, We're super excited.

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Speaker 4: We're super excited, and we love hearing what people are

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Speaker 4: responding to And I'm always asking people what's your favorite

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Speaker 4: chapter and which voice did you like? So I think

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Speaker 4: because we've lived in our heads for so long and

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Speaker 4: of course in the many papers on my desk, but

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Speaker 4: it's amazing for us to have feedback from our readers.

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Speaker 1: Before we talk about sort of the book and how

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Speaker 1: you all set it up, which I think is really

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Speaker 1: unique and interesting and eminently readable. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about your relationship with John F. Kennedy Junior,

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Speaker 1: and how you all decided to collaborate Rose Marie, Why

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Speaker 1: don't we start with you?

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Speaker 3: Sure, I was John's assistant and then chief of staff

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Speaker 3: for five years at George. I became very close friends

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Speaker 3: with him and with Carolyn, and we had a wonderful

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Speaker 3: friendship and brothers sister teasing relationship and a great professional

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Speaker 3: relationship as well. And so that's how I came to this.

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Speaker 1: Liz, what about you? How did you know John F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior.

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Speaker 4: So I got the jfk Junior beat back when my

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Speaker 4: boss thought that John and Carolyn are about to get married,

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Speaker 4: and she said, you got to find out everything about

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Speaker 4: these people. And you know, I've been thinking about it lately.

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Speaker 4: And of course this is back when nobody talked like zero.

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Speaker 4: And I always would say nobody was nicer about turning

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Speaker 4: me down than John's friends, because the response would always

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Speaker 4: to be like, Liz, you know, you know I can't

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Speaker 4: talk to you, and I'm like, I know you can't

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Speaker 4: talk to me. But they did return, some of them

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Speaker 4: to return my call. And for that I'll always be

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Speaker 4: as you know, as a reporter, we appreciate that so yeah,

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Speaker 4: basically nobody talked back then.

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Speaker 5: Maybe there was one friend.

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Speaker 1: This was when you were at People magazine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm still at People and Rose and I

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Speaker 4: weest that. I always say, you know, you never returned

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Speaker 4: my call.

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Speaker 1: They always said no, but I returned your calls.

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Speaker 4: But I only met Rose a year, probably about a

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Speaker 4: year after John died. We met for the first time,

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Speaker 4: So our relationship really started after John's death.

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Speaker 1: Why did you all want to write this book? Obviously,

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Speaker 1: on July sixteenth of this year, it will be twenty

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Speaker 1: five years since John died, which is just so impossible

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Speaker 1: to believe. But what was your goal when you were

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Speaker 1: working on this book and publishing it around this time?

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Speaker 3: Rose, Marie, I think it was that I wanted John

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Speaker 3: to be remembered. I didn't want him to be forgotten,

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Speaker 3: and particularly younger people to know about him, who he was,

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Speaker 3: his place in our history, our culture, George magazine. And

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Speaker 3: I think that enough time had passed where for me

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Speaker 3: and also for his friends and some of his family

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Speaker 3: members who participated, it felt more like a celebration of.

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Speaker 1: Him than the morning.

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Speaker 3: It felt like enough time had passed that we could

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Speaker 3: celebrate rather than mourn. And I really always felt that

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Speaker 3: I never wanted John to be forgotten, and I felt

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Speaker 3: that if he knew you were going to be gone

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Speaker 3: at thirty eight, he wouldn't want to be forgotten.

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Speaker 1: Liz, I guess this time people did return your calls.

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Speaker 1: What was it like for you to report on this

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Speaker 1: now versus when you were first given this assignment back

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Speaker 1: in the day.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'll just say it makes a big difference when

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Speaker 4: you say I'm working with Rosemary Tarnsio. Let's just say,

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Speaker 4: but I had met some of John's friends over the years,

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Speaker 4: maybe through books they had written or other projects that

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Speaker 4: we had done together. But of course it's a whole

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Speaker 4: different level, you know, now that I'm working with Rose.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think it was I was just really

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Speaker 4: interested in having sort of open ended conversations with people,

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Speaker 4: you know, I kind of wanted to see where they went,

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Speaker 4: tried not to ask too many, you know, leading questions,

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Speaker 4: and we sort of wanted to present sort of this

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Speaker 4: kind of kaleidoscopic view of John, right, all different voices,

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Speaker 4: all different perspectives, all different timeframes, and you know, there

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Speaker 4: were a lot of like surprises along the way.

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Speaker 5: So I think, you know, Rose and.

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Speaker 4: I would get so excited when we got a great interview,

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Speaker 4: and we would get heartbroken once somebody turned us down.

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Speaker 4: But it was all like we were. I was like

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Speaker 4: learning as I went. So I think it sort of

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Speaker 4: gave the project a lot of energy, and it gave

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Speaker 4: us energy because I mean it was daunting but exciting

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Speaker 4: at the same time.

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Speaker 1: The format of the book is very interesting, and that,

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Speaker 1: as you said, it's a kaleidoscopic but word that I

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Speaker 1: don't use that much. Liz view JFK Junior's life from

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Speaker 1: a whole myriad of perspectives. In fact, you did over

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Speaker 1: two hundred interviews. You talked to me, Rosemary talked to me,

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Speaker 1: and it was fun to reminisce about the fact that

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Speaker 1: I had done John's last on camera interview and how

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Speaker 1: in retrospect, how moving and poignant it was. But how

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Speaker 1: did you all decide to format the book the way

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Speaker 1: you did, with basically people talking about their memories of John,

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Speaker 1: even starting with the courtship of John F. Kennedy and

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Speaker 1: Jacqueline Bouvier and before they got married. So tell me

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Speaker 1: about sort of putting it together and how you decided

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Speaker 1: to fill it with sometimes just snippets and other times

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Speaker 1: several paragraphs.

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Speaker 3: From my perspective, it felt like I think Liz could

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Speaker 3: be you know, from a journalistic perspective, would answer this

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Speaker 3: better than I would. But I think what we wanted

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Speaker 3: it to feel like was you were sitting in a

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Speaker 3: room or in a living room and just sharing memories

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Speaker 3: of John and of his life. And I think for

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Speaker 3: the part of it that was you know, historical so

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Speaker 3: to speak, going back to his mom and dad and

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Speaker 3: their courtship. I think he gave it a perspective so

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Speaker 3: that for people who might not have known him or

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Speaker 3: didn't know the history, they wouldn't feel like they were

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Speaker 3: reading about someone that they didn't know. You know, they

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Speaker 3: kind of got the background, the history. This is why

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Speaker 3: this person is who he is, and this is how

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Speaker 3: he got there, and this is so I think it's

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Speaker 3: important when you want people to invest in someone to

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Speaker 3: do that, to really paint a full picture.

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Speaker 1: And to really hear their life story from the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: even before they were conceived, right, And I think that

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Speaker 1: made his life come alive for me, especially the depictions

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Speaker 1: of him as a little boy fascinated with all things military,

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Speaker 1: fascinated with helicopters, crying when his father left, and that

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Speaker 1: very po it remembrance of the President looking at the

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Speaker 1: Secret Service agent and saying, you know, take care of John,

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Speaker 1: never knowing that he wouldn't see his son again after

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Speaker 1: that fateful trip to Dallas. What were your hopes for

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Speaker 1: the layout of the book.

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Speaker 4: I guess we really wanted the book to move, you know,

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Speaker 4: and like I think what Rose was saying, like, so

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Speaker 4: there is sort of a conversation happening, and so you know,

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Speaker 4: and then as we were writing it, you'd see, oh,

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Speaker 4: this person talked about let's just say the wedding, Carolyn's

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Speaker 4: wedding dress. Oh, but then remember that thing that other

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Speaker 4: person said. And then so you'd almost like it's almost

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Speaker 4: like like when we're talking, we're interrupting each other, and

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Speaker 4: what about that? And so you kind of were like

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Speaker 4: maybe sometimes looking for themes, and then sometimes right something

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Speaker 4: would flow.

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Speaker 5: Into the next thing, or somebody would say something.

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Speaker 4: And when I started it, I actually made print outs

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Speaker 4: of my transcripts and was cutting That's how old I am.

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Speaker 4: I was cutting them at the beginning and the kitchen

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Speaker 4: table with my husband, and somehow I needed to break

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Speaker 4: it to see it in a new way and then oh,

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Speaker 4: this voice actually goes with that person, so right. The

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Speaker 4: idea was to sort of give it energy, people having

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Speaker 4: a conversation, and then chapters sort of have a beginning

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Speaker 4: and an end. Maybe they're sort of leading you into

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Speaker 4: the next chapter. So I guess we just wanted to

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Speaker 4: make it as lively and as possible and really sort

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Speaker 4: of winnowing it down to anecdotes so people are really

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Speaker 4: sharing stories.

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Speaker 1: At the beginning of the book, you have an interview

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Speaker 1: with someone Martha Bartlett, whose husband had set up Jackie

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Speaker 1: and Jack Kennedy back when they were much younger. I

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Speaker 1: think Jackie was just twenty one at the time and

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Speaker 1: he was thirty three, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people might be surprised that then John Kennedy had no

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Speaker 1: game like In fact, you quoted her saying, poor Jack

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Speaker 1: was always making advances, half the time they were not accepted.

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Speaker 1: He thought he was a great don juant, and most

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Speaker 1: women didn't think of him as a great don juant.

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Speaker 1: That made me laugh because I thought, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: this big Latharia, who you know, kind of was an

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Speaker 1: awkward guy.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's just say Martha is one tough lady. Okay,

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Speaker 4: and she has survived a lot, so I will just

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Speaker 4: leave it at that, Martha. That was Martha's take.

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Speaker 5: She definitely knew them, and she's definitely out of that era.

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Speaker 1: How old is Martha at this point.

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Speaker 4: I'd say ninety five ninety six, and wow, Marth was

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Speaker 4: going strong.

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Speaker 1: Good for Martha and she you know, I know she

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Speaker 1: also told you that Jackie knew from the get go

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Speaker 1: that he was a big philanderer, but because of her

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Speaker 1: father and his philandering ways, she wasn't that rattled by it.

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Speaker 1: Is that accurate, Rose, Marie?

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Speaker 3: I don't know about that. I think that might be

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Speaker 3: Martha's opinion from what she saw. But you know, I

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Speaker 3: think we all go into a new relationship, and I

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Speaker 3: would imagine Jackie Kennedy did the same thing, hoping for

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Speaker 3: the best and hoping that we have a great romance.

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Speaker 3: And I think in a lot of ways they did.

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Speaker 3: But I think that there's always you know, there are

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Speaker 3: always the problems in pitfalls and relationships. So that's how

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Speaker 3: I look at it. I think everybody goes it in

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Speaker 3: hopeful and you know, really wide eyed about it. I hope,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: I think you're being very nice and diplomatic. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like he was kind of a dog, but because her

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Speaker 1: dad was kind of a dog that, at least according

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Speaker 1: to Martha, she just dealt with it. In fact, Martha's

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Speaker 1: quote is Jackie was used to philandering. It's all about

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Speaker 1: what you're used to, you connect it with love. So

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Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting insight into their relationship.

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Speaker 1: And how did you take away from all the people

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Speaker 1: with whom you spoke about their marriage in general? I

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Speaker 1: thought it was sort of heartbreaking that Jackie lost her

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Speaker 1: fourth child, because she had also lost a child earlier,

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Speaker 1: Arabella was stillborn, and then her fourth child, Patrick died

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Speaker 1: shortly after birth from respiratory distress. She was despondent, and

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Speaker 1: she and according to whoever it was who was talking

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Speaker 1: at this time in the book, decided to go to

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Speaker 1: Dallas and to help her husband. And that person said

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Speaker 1: that they seemed to be on much stronger ground and

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Speaker 1: that the death of Patrick not only changed him, changed

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Speaker 1: her obviously, but it changed them as a couple in

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Speaker 1: a way. Right No.

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Speaker 4: Clint Hill has said that the Secret Service agent who

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Speaker 4: was with Jackie all the time, and he noticed more

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Speaker 4: a little more tenderness between them, a little more closeness,

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Speaker 4: and Martha had also noticed a change. So I mean, right,

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Speaker 4: that's something unimaginable to go through something like that and

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Speaker 4: what that does to a couple. So that was really

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Speaker 4: touching anecdote there, and very heartbreaking, I thought, And it.

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Speaker 3: Is heartbreaking because those things can go either way in

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Speaker 3: a relationship, but either it can either bring you closer

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Speaker 3: together or further apart. And I think it's, you know,

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Speaker 3: just sad that happened that way. And then they went

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Speaker 3: to Dallas.

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Speaker 1: And then of course everything changed when President Kennedy was assassinated,

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Speaker 1: and boy, the details in the book about that are

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Speaker 1: so hero range. You know, it made me think and

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Speaker 1: wonder about John and never knowing his dad really and

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Speaker 1: it made me so sad that he couldn't read this

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Speaker 1: book and the remembrances of people who saw him with

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Speaker 1: his dad, and the part where his father knew that

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Speaker 1: Jackie didn't really like the kids to be photographed, so

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Speaker 1: when she went away, he would have the White House

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Speaker 1: photographer come in because he knew people would love to

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Speaker 1: see photos of the kids, and I guess he didn't

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Speaker 1: feel as strongly about their privacy. And that's when that

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Speaker 1: very famous photo of John John under the desk was

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Speaker 1: taken when Jackie was out of the White House and

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Speaker 1: the coast was clear, right yeah.

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Speaker 3: And also, as Michael Shean says, John told him that

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Speaker 3: his mother would not allow them to chew gum, so

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Speaker 3: his father would always have gum for him, and he

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Speaker 3: had it under his desk, and that's how John got

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Speaker 3: under there to get the gone.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny. He was a little young to be

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Speaker 1: chewing gum, wasn't he. I mean he was how old?

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Speaker 3: Was he?

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Speaker 1: Two or three years old at the time?

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Speaker 3: And even three? It was guy.

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Speaker 1: When we come back. How the nineteen sixty three assassination

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Speaker 1: of President Kennedy when John was only three, strengthened his

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Speaker 1: bonds with his mother, Jackie and his sister Caroline. If

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Speaker 1: you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown

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Speaker 1: of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness

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Speaker 1: and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter Wake

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Speaker 1: Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're back

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Speaker 1: with Rosemarie Trensio and Liz McNeil. After President Kennedy was assassinated. Clearly, John,

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Speaker 1: Caroline and Jackie, I feel funny calling her by your

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Speaker 1: first name. But anyway, they formed an extraordinary bond. They

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Speaker 1: tell us about that.

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Speaker 4: Liz, I was just thinking of something that Sasha Chair

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Speaker 4: may have said. John's one of John's closest friends, and

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Speaker 4: she called that sort of like a sacred space, sort

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Speaker 4: of something that is, you know, almost impenetrable because they

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Speaker 4: were so close. And I think there was another friend,

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Speaker 4: Chris Oberbeck, John's roommate at Brown, who said, you know,

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Speaker 4: those two women are those are the primary sort of

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Speaker 4: influences in his life, right. It's his mother and his sister,

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Speaker 4: So it's I don't think I have thought about it

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Speaker 4: that way before, but when you think about it that way, right,

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Speaker 4: those two relationships really form who he is. So I

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Speaker 4: thought that was enlightening. I hadn't thought of John that way,

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Speaker 4: like basically an unbreakable.

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Speaker 1: Bond there also, I think probably having a certain respect

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Speaker 1: for women. I know that one of his friends said

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Speaker 1: he could have been out carousing, having one night stance.

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Speaker 1: But he was really a serial monogamous when he got older,

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Speaker 1: wasn't he?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he was, And I think that his relationship with

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Speaker 3: his mother and his sister or had a lot to

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Speaker 3: do with that. I think he had a respect for women,

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Speaker 3: and he didn't want to see women be hurt. He

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Speaker 3: didn't want to be responsible for that. And I think

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Speaker 3: his mother and his sister were the absolute biggest influences

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Speaker 3: on his life, and their relationship was closer than anything

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Speaker 3: any relationship I've ever seen. I think he had a

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Speaker 3: tremendous amount of respect for women. I think he was

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Speaker 3: cautious about not hurting people's feelings, especially women, because he wouldn't

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Speaker 3: want to see his mom or his sister be hurt.

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Speaker 3: You know, he adored those women. They and they really

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Speaker 3: formed who he was. And Caroline was extremely protective of John,

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Speaker 3: and he was of her.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you how Caroline feels or felt

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Speaker 1: about the fact that you were putting this book together.

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Speaker 1: Obviously she didn't participate, but there are photos of the

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Speaker 1: two of them in the book that are really quite beautiful.

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Speaker 3: I corresponded with her and she said, you know, look,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to participate, but thank you for letting

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Speaker 3: me know, and good luck with it. There weren't didn't

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Speaker 3: seem to be on my end from her any hard

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Speaker 3: feelings about it. It's just not something that she would

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Speaker 3: participate in. And I totally understand that, and I respect that.

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Speaker 1: What about other family members, did you reach out to them?

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a big, big family.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we reached out to a few. I didn't go

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Speaker 3: far and wide with the family because I thought I

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Speaker 3: wanted to really have the people who were, you know,

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Speaker 3: close to him and who he communicated with most often.

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Speaker 3: But Carrie gave us a really beautiful, funny, you know,

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Speaker 3: entry for the book, and I love it where she

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Speaker 3: talks about the little kid who says, says, what's your name?

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Speaker 3: And he says John? And he says John, what's your

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Speaker 3: whole name? And he says John F. Kennedy. He says,

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Speaker 3: do you know that you're named after an airport?

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Speaker 1: That's so funny. Well, that's great that Carrie was able

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Speaker 1: to give you something. But I think Caroline continues to

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Speaker 1: be very protective of John, and you know you kind

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Speaker 1: of alluded to this early on. But how do you

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Speaker 1: think he'd feel about some of these personal stories and

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Speaker 1: people talking about pretty intimate things in this book. Do

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Speaker 1: you think he would be upset with.

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Speaker 3: You at all?

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Speaker 1: Or what do you think he would say if he

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Speaker 1: were to walk into your room right now?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to think that, you know, anybody after

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Speaker 3: they passed away would love to have their friends and

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Speaker 3: their family members and their colleagues come together and remember

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Speaker 3: them and tell beautiful stories about them and share their

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Speaker 3: memories so that they're not forgotten.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting, right because John was a member of our profession, right,

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Speaker 4: so he becomes an editor in chief, and I think

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Speaker 4: as a journalist, right, it was I think we wanted

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Speaker 4: to have this element of truth, but also to have

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Speaker 4: a lot of heart, and I feel like the book

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Speaker 4: does that. But I think you there has to be

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Speaker 4: an element of truth, like we had to if these

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Speaker 4: stories were shared with us and everything was done in balance,

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Speaker 4: like I felt, for me, it made me just have

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Speaker 4: a much better understanding of him, more empathy, more fondness

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Speaker 4: for him.

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Speaker 5: So that was our intent.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about his relationship with the father. He never

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Speaker 1: really knew how difficult was that for him to navigate

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Speaker 1: this the mythology of his father, the larger than life

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Speaker 1: figure that his dad was, with his own development as

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Speaker 1: a person. You watched him, I think probably struggle with

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Speaker 1: that at times. What was that like?

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Speaker 3: I don't know that he struggled with being part of

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Speaker 3: a legacy or a mythology. He didn't see it that way.

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Speaker 3: He saw it as this is my family. They're not

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Speaker 3: a legacy to me. They're not a mythology to me.

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Speaker 3: They're my family. I think what was interesting about what

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Speaker 3: I learned from the book was all of the little

402
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Speaker 3: sort of pieces that came together on him really kind

403
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Speaker 3: of searching to have a better understanding and a deeper

404
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Speaker 3: understanding of his father and really sort of getting to

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Speaker 3: know him through all the various people and things that

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Speaker 3: he did. And on one of those is you know,

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Speaker 3: George Magazine. I mean, he really he interviews people who

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Speaker 3: are I mean, he goes in visits with the Fidel

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Speaker 3: Castro and asks him for an interview. He you know,

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Speaker 3: he sort of wants to understand his father and his

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Speaker 3: father's presidency, and I think you can see that throughout

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Speaker 3: the book, and it's I think it was probably really

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Speaker 3: tough for him to know that the whole world, you know,

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Speaker 3: knew his father, and many people had memories of his

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Speaker 3: father that he didn't have. And I think that he

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Speaker 3: appreciated the affinity that people had for his father and

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Speaker 3: the affection, but I think it was probably difficult for

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Speaker 3: him not to have his own memories and not to

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Speaker 3: have his own connection as an adult.

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Speaker 1: Liz, what about the pressures on him to be a

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Speaker 1: really important figure in American society. How tough was that.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like he was trying to find his way working.

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Speaker 1: You know, he decided he didn't want to be a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: He then decided he wanted to be a magazine editor.

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Speaker 1: He was in the throes of getting support, even more support,

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Speaker 1: making sure that George could continue when he died. How

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Speaker 1: much do you think that weighed on him. I remember

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Speaker 1: reading the New York Post articles every time he failed

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Speaker 1: the bar and I thought, God, that's so tough to

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Speaker 1: have everyone in the world know that you failed the

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Speaker 1: bar exam because he took it? What how many times?

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Speaker 5: List three?

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Speaker 1: Three was the third time? A charm? Yes, okay, good,

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Speaker 1: thank god? But I mean, talk about what you learned

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Speaker 1: from people you interviewed, but also just from covering him,

436
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Speaker 1: this enormous pressure he felt.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's always interesting with him, and I think

438
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 4: there's sort of I felt like he's always sort of

439
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 4: breaking free, you know, doing his own thing. And one

440
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 4: thing that I always marvel at is like when I

441
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 4: think about his level of fame and who he was,

442
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: and there's almost like no protection, you know, because you're

443
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 4: a journalist. There's no doorman, there's no manager. He has Rose,

444
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 4: who's incredibly loyal and protective. But he was very much

445
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 4: part of the world, part of New York City. So

446
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 4: that was always interesting, and it did seem like there

447
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 4: was this element of breaking free, whether it was going

448
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 4: to Brown, traveling, just being amongst everyone right, definitely not

449
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 4: seeking protection, or definitely like out and about.

450
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 5: So that's sort of fascinating.

451
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 4: And yet it seems like at the end, I think

452
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: Steve Gillen said that he was John's biographer and a

453
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 4: friend of John's, and he wrote a great book about John,

454
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 4: called America's Electant Prince, and he said that John throughout

455
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 4: his life said I don't want to do what people

456
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 4: expect me to do. His life is a lot like

457
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 4: that out in Central Park, you know, found founding George.

458
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 4: But then he was saying that at the end of

459
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 4: his life, or it would be in the middle of

460
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 4: his life, John sort of is coming to this moment

461
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 4: where maybe he is going to do what people expect

462
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 4: him to do, but maybe he had to come to

463
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 4: that moment himself, right, which is maybe sort of what

464
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: this book is sort of about, sort of how he figures.

465
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: It out himself. He was accosted by headlines in the

466
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: New York Posts like hunk flunks and all kinds of

467
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: things when he did not pass the bar exam, and

468
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: the book makes clear that he most certainly got into

469
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: Brown because of his name. So I was curious how

470
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: you all felt about his intellect and was he sensitive

471
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: about this notion that he wasn't maybe the sharpest tool

472
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: in the shed. I think that's you know, I think

473
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: those girl had an object to that. Rosemary God.

474
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: I do because I knew him, and I knew he

475
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: was extremely intelligent, very wise, very tempered, and you know,

476
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: you have to also understand like at that time in

477
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: his life after college, he's studying or not studying for

478
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: the bar exam. You know, people fail things all the time,

479
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 3: but it's not on the front page of the New

480
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: York Post as you're you know, going down the street.

481
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 3: And I think those things were upsetting to him and

482
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: it hurt him. But I also think that John throughout

483
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: his life had seen that those things, as he always said,

484
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 3: as my and he said it in the letter to

485
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 3: Mike Tyson you know, today's headlines are lining tomorrow's trash cans,

486
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 3: and no amount of bad press is going to change

487
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: you know, your life if the people around you love

488
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 3: and respect you. And I think he lived life that way.

489
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 3: And I think he really did have an incredible eq.

490
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 3: You know, he had a way of walking into a

491
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: room and knowing exactly what was happening and who was

492
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: who and how to treat, you know, how people. You know,

493
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: he had this thing where he would go to the

494
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 3: shyest person in the room or the person who was

495
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: in the corner, and that's the person he would introduce

496
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 3: himself to. A person who seemed the most uncomfortable he

497
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 3: would introduce himself to. So it was like those kind

498
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 3: of things you're not you know, you're not dumb. And

499
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: I would also add.

500
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 6: That probably another thing, Katie, and another thing, Katie, probably

501
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 6: half of the celebrities in the country's children got into

502
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 6: their colleges because of their parents' names.

503
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: But that said, you know, no, he wasn't Caroline, he

504
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 3: wasn't an academic, but he he certainly wasn't, you know, dumb.

505
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: I think people, they're all kinds of intelligence, right, and

506
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: I think people can be deeply intelligent and perceptive, but

507
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: not necessarily academic. So it sounds like he fell into

508
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: that category. Yeah.

509
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: And John was one of those annoying people where if

510
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 3: it didn't interest him, he didn't put on a you know,

511
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 3: he is kind of like a kid that way. If

512
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: it wasn't super interesting to him, he didn't you know,

513
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: he didn't give it at all.

514
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: This free spirit that he seemed to possess, you know,

515
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: rollerblading and someone described him rollerblading down Columbus with a

516
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: big pizza box over his head and really kind of

517
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: just being very open and vulnerable and out there. Do

518
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: you think that was the result of his mom's desire

519
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: to have him live a normal life, because I know

520
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: that was really important to her.

521
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think part of it was that. I think

522
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: that's where the seed of it was planted. But I

523
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: think for John, he was in constant, perpetual. That was John.

524
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: He was not a guy to sit still. He was

525
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 3: not a guy to you know. He wanted to be

526
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: in the thick of it. As a friend of his

527
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 3: said when we opened the book, John wanted to be

528
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: on the dance floor with everybody. He didn't want to

529
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: be behind the ropes in the VIP section. He found

530
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: that boring. He felt like he was part of New

531
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: York and he belonged in New York, like I belong here.

532
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: I'm not some Ivory Tower person that doesn't belong in

533
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 3: the mix. He wanted to be in the mix. He

534
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 3: loved being around the city, he loved doing things that

535
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: were interesting. But also he was very you know, athletic.

536
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 3: He looked run around and exercise. I mean, he had that,

537
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 3: but he also had the idea that experiences happened, you know,

538
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: when you're in the thick of it, and John wanted

539
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: to have a life full of really rich experiences.

540
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: I know that one entry talked about the impact Jackie

541
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: Kennedy's death from lymphoma had on her son and it

542
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: really changed him in many ways. Can you talk about that, Liz.

543
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, remember that interview, and it was from a very

544
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: close friend of John, somebody who had known him really

545
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 4: his entire life, and it really said I think his

546
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 4: phrase was that his wings came out or something like that,

547
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 4: that it was sort of, you know, there was like

548
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 4: tremendous sadness at the loss of his mom, but there

549
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: maybe there was also some kind of freedom that also

550
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 4: came with it, and that basically there was he sort

551
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 4: of became more of an adult, I guess, and that's

552
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 4: what and was sort of ready to take on new things.

553
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 4: So I think it was heartbreaking. And Rose was just

554
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 4: getting to know John at that time, so she would

555
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 4: probably know more than I. But I do remember the

556
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 4: friend saying, right, that was sort of a time for

557
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 4: his wings to come out.

558
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, he dated a lot of women. Unfortunately never asked

559
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: me out, much to my chagrin. But I think I

560
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: was married when I met him. I mean, my god,

561
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: I did I did I mention I had a crush

562
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: on him? I think I did a few times in

563
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: the book. But you know, tell me a little bit

564
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: about his relationships. Did anything surprise you that you learned?

565
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I know he had a girlfriend in the eighties.

566
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: I guess maybe who went to Brown with him. He

567
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: dated Sarah Jessica Parker. Give us a little tea, ladies.

568
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 5: Well.

569
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: One of the things that I think was interesting that

570
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: we discovered and that we you know, we kind of

571
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: knew but not really was there was a lot of overlap.

572
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: So he wouldn't just break off, be single and then

573
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: meet somebody else. He always kind of had overlap between girlfriends,

574
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: so it wasn't completely over, but he was sort of

575
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 3: starting with somebody else.

576
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if I like that term overlap. Yeah,

577
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: it was sure because I would not want to be

578
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: one of the overlap girls in either direction. Probably, But

579
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: do you think that's because he didn't want to hurt

580
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: their feelings or what was going on there with this

581
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: overlap situation?

582
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 5: I mean, Rose I recall that.

583
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: I think in those instances it was sort of when

584
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 4: a relationship was ending.

585
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: And there was one friend who was unnamed in the

586
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 5: book who.

587
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 4: Talked about that John couldn't really be single because this

588
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 4: person said that he would actually get calls from like

589
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: members of royal families wanting to fix them up, and.

590
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: That was surprising why there was this sort of overlap,

591
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: why he was never really single. It was like, well,

592
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 3: he would be inundated with calls from you know.

593
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: Heads of state or people fathers or women themselves. John

594
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: much better than Hinge exactly.

595
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 3: Like he didn't even have to do and read it.

596
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 5: He didn't need it.

597
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: After this break, JFK. Junior meets Princess Diana and they

598
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: form an instant connection as reluctant public figures now more

599
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: with Liz McNeil and Rose Marie Crencio. Team met with

600
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: Princess Diana at the Carlisle. Tell us about that that.

601
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: Was our most famous caper, trying to get in and

602
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 3: out of there without getting noticed, which we did.

603
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: How did that happen and what was going on with

604
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: those two?

605
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: He wanted her to be on the cover of George

606
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: and she was going to be in New York and

607
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 3: he was going over there to meet her and present

608
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: her with these sketches that Matt Burman or creative director

609
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 3: had done, you know, depicting what we would want to

610
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: do on the cover and how she would appear. And

611
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: you know, he went and met with her at the

612
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 3: Carlisle and she was there for a charity dinner and

613
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 3: her private secretary Patrick Jah at the time, and I,

614
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: you know, hatched the plan and we went over like

615
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 3: in the middle of the day, and I went with him,

616
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: and I walked in with him and waited downstairs, and

617
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 3: you know, he was up there for about I don't know,

618
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 3: maybe an hour, and they chatted and they said hello,

619
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: and they talked about various things, and he made his

620
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: little pitch for George and.

621
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: Did Sparks fly.

622
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 3: No, they did not.

623
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: And she was married at the time, yes, Or was

624
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: she divorced. No, I think she was coming out of

625
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: her marriage.

626
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: But he was solidly with Carolyn at the time, and

627
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 3: it was it was kind of all business, you know.

628
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: And as Patrick describes it, like she in the book,

629
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: you know, she she had this sort of empathy for him.

630
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: She saw him as vulnerable and as someone you know

631
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 3: that she had empathy for because I think she probably

632
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: related to his situation.

633
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: In fact, she later wrote him a note about the paparazzi, right.

634
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, she said, I hope the paparazzi are leaving you alone.

635
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: If you can believe it. They're much worse here. I'm paraphrasing,

636
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 3: but it was just it was very you know, poignant.

637
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 3: But it was a situation where like, if it had

638
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: gotten out exactly what you said, did Sparks, why, it

639
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: would have been this whole tabloid frenzy of John and

640
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: Princess Diana dating. And that was not the case. So

641
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: we got there and decided let's just walk in the

642
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 3: front door instead of trying to go in a side

643
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: entrance because they're probably waiting for her at the side entrance,

644
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 3: so we walked right in the front of the Carlisle

645
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 3: completely unnoticed.

646
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: Did he like her? Did he think she was nice?

647
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, he thought she was lovely. He thought she was

648
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: very shy. He said she had great legs, and he,

649
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 3: you know, I think he was disappointed that she said no,

650
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: but he understood.

651
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: Speaking of overlap, I know he was seeing Daryl Hannah

652
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: when he met Carolyn, and so he was balancing those

653
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: two relationships for a pretty long time, right. I don't

654
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: think he was in both relationships at the same time.

655
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 3: I think that he and Daryl were on and off,

656
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 3: and I think when they were back on, he you know,

657
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: he and Daryl decided to give it. From what I

658
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 3: understand from his friends, they decided to give it one

659
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: more shot, and she was going to move to New

660
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: York and it didn't work out. It was sort of

661
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 3: at the end of that relationship. The second time around

662
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 3: that he meets Carolyn and they form a relationship, and

663
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 3: then he and Daryl break up and he ends up

664
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 3: with Carolyn.

665
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about Carolyn Beset because you

666
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: got to know her very well. Rose Marie as most

667
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: executive assistants or chiefs of staff do because they have

668
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: intimate knowledge and it's really they talk to you all

669
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: the time and are with you constantly. And I think

670
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: most people you know, have demanding jobs become very very

671
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: close to their assistance. What was she like.

672
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: She was great. I mean, Carolyn was She was so smart,

673
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 3: she was funny. She was also very protective of John.

674
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 3: I think she instinctually knew from the beginning when she

675
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 3: saw sort of what his life was like, that he

676
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 3: could be vulnerable, and he could be vulnerable to people

677
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: and people who weren't always trustworthy, and she felt this

678
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: sort of mama bear instinct of protecting him. And I

679
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 3: think he loved that. I think he loved that she

680
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 3: did that. And I also think that they were, you know,

681
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 3: they were buddies. They were like, you know, they would

682
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 3: go home and giggle and gossip about the day, and

683
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 3: they'd poke fun at each other and tease each other

684
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 3: all the time. And I think he loved that. I

685
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 3: think he had a relationship with her that was, you know,

686
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 3: kind of also a solid friendship.

687
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: In fact, Gary Ginsberg, his friend from law school, told

688
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: you Carolyn had all the discernment that John Black like, honey,

689
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: he's playing you, or Honey, you don't need to do that.

690
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: She was the eyes and ears that he sometimes didn't have.

691
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: Part of John's charm was he would say yes to

692
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: a lot of things. She brought a certain discipline to that.

693
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: So she was kind of the bad comp it sounds

694
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: like in the relationship in some ways she was.

695
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: And I think that was hard for her because I

696
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: think she got a lot of the heat for when

697
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 3: he started to say no and when he became a

698
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,479
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, less available to people, especially after

699
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 3: they got married. As you know, many of us know,

700
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 3: you get married, you're not as out and about, you're

701
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 3: not as available, you're not hanging out with your buddies

702
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 3: all the time. And I think I think there was

703
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 3: some resentment from people, you know, towards Carolyn because of that,

704
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: because of the fact that she was protective, and also

705
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 3: because of the fact that John was being sort of

706
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 3: taken away from people.

707
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: Right you can see that happening, right, People starting to

708
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: resent her because she brought some as Gary said, discipline

709
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: into the relationship and obviously he couldn't do everything. He

710
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: sounds like he was almost like a Labrador retriever he

711
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: was friendly and wanted to please people, but she was

712
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: able to rein him in in a good way.

713
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she also was able to say to him like,

714
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 3: why are you doing it? Why are you going? Or

715
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 3: she wanted him to sort of come to it on

716
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 3: his own, but she was sort of the catalyst for that.

717
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: And she would very much like say to him I

718
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: don't think you should go, and here's why, or I

719
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 3: don't think you should do that and here's why. And

720
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: they had heated discussion sometimes about it. But she was,

721
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 3: you know, she was really it was always about his

722
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: best interest.

723
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: And after all, she did have a career in pr,

724
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: so she understood how the press worked. So probably her

725
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: her council was probably pretty helpful to him at times.

726
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask Liz about the wedding because that

727
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: photo of them emerging on Cumberland Island off the host

728
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: of Georgia is so iconic. Tell us a little bit

729
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 1: about that photo and why it was so captivating.

730
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, you know, as we were reporting the

731
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 4: story or reporting the details, it was like no detail

732
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 4: was too small because this was such a magical wedding.

733
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 4: And Rose spoke to go go Ferguson who's the woman

734
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 4: who runs the Gray Field in which is where the

735
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 4: guests stayed and they had the dinner and she sort

736
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 4: of helped arrange. Just these details were so magical. And

737
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 4: I remember Go Go described Carolyn's dress as she said

738
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 4: she looked like a Kali lily, and I just thought, oh, like,

739
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 4: it's so beautiful and what a perfect description. And then

740
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 4: there's another place where she said it was like cream

741
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 4: was porto for her body, and I thought, wow, that's

742
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 4: an incredible description. So they're all these beautiful details, and

743
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 4: you know, and Rose was very involved in, you know,

744
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 4: in some of that, and there was like this element

745
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 4: of not di I y. But you know, when you

746
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 4: think about these big weddings that we report.

747
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: On and wedding planners and like my daughters go on.

748
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: Roses printing out the taking late at night at the

749
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 4: George office and.

750
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 3: Printing out the programs at the George office on the printer,

751
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 3: you know, at ten o'clock at night, because we couldn't

752
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 3: send them somewhere to be printed. It would we were

753
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 3: afraid it wouldn't get out, you know. And also, as

754
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 3: you probably know, Katie, Cumberland is an island, so everything

755
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: has to be shipped there. You can't, you know, it

756
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 3: has to be ferried over. So it had to be

757
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 3: coordinated that way. And I think just the fact that

758
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: they decided to do it the way they did it,

759
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 3: which was forty people, their closest friends and family members,

760
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 3: and it really made it special.

761
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: It really made it unique and special.

762
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 4: One thing I learned from doing this book with Rose

763
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 4: is that Rose is the one who basically chooses that

764
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 4: photo to be released by that incredible photo that was

765
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 4: so magical. So I mean, you know, most people, as

766
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 4: you know, there'd be pouring over hundreds of photos that

767
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 4: perhaps it'd be a little air touching or retouching, and

768
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 4: you know, this was definitely not chosen that way. So Rose,

769
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 4: you should share a little bit about how you chose

770
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 4: that photo.

771
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the photographer Dennis Reggie, I mean, what

772
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 3: a beautiful, what beautiful images he captured, I mean, he

773
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: was phenomenal. That photo of them in the church, that unbelievable.

774
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: But I think there were two options. And when I

775
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: spoke to Carolyn after the wedding and she said, which

776
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 3: one do you like? I don't know, I trust you

777
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 3: you can pick it. And I thought, oh, really, Wow,

778
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 3: they were very similar, but there was just something about

779
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 3: that look on her face of just pure joy, and

780
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 3: he just looked like he was he was blissful, and

781
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 3: it was just beautiful. It was perfect.

782
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 1: My other favorite picture of them is when she's wearing

783
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,919
Speaker 1: sort of a kind of a halter top with some

784
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: sort of design on the front and his jacket.

785
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 3: The choker. Yea, it's the it's part of the design

786
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 3: of the shirt and it's a jumpsup actually, and she

787
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: has a jacket.

788
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: On and he's behind her. I just think that is

789
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: such a beautiful photo. There are many beautiful photos in

790
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: the book. I can't let you go without talking about

791
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 1: sadly their untimely deaths, because this book is coming out

792
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth anniversary July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine.

793
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: Rose Marie, you were actually staying at John and Carolyn's apartment,

794
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: and I know Carol Ratziwell, who was married to Anthony

795
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: who passed away from cancer. She called you and said

796
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: they hadn't arrived yet. What did you think when you

797
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: got that call.

798
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 3: I honestly thought Carol was mistaken, and I thought, well,

799
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 3: they went somewhere else, or they went they just haven't

800
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 3: arrived yet. They left later. Maybe they stopped in Nantucket

801
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 3: because they had some friends who were going to be

802
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 3: in Nantucket that night, and I thought maybe they stopped there.

803
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 3: I never in a million years imagined it was unimaginable

804
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 3: to think that they were gone, and I did not

805
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 3: think that at all. I just thought it was some

806
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 3: sort of fluke, some sort of you know, it will

807
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: resolve itself in the next few hours. And I was

808
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 3: actually thinking to myself when Carol said she called the Coastguard.

809
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: I thought, oh God, he's going to kill me if

810
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: this becomes a crazy media frenzy, you know story. That's

811
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: what I kept thinking. You know, he's going to think,

812
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 3: I'm he's going to think we've all overreacted and gone

813
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 3: gone mad when he finally reserved, when they finally resurfaced

814
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: and they're like, what did you do? What are you

815
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 3: talking about? We're fine. I never imagined that it would

816
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 3: be that it would be that it was. It was

817
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 3: literally unimaginable. And I remember it was we were into

818
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 3: the next day and I still wasn't, you know, totally there.

819
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 3: And then I think it was Saturday night. I spoke

820
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 3: to his cousin Bobby, and he said he must think

821
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: somebody must have said something to him, like Rose doesn't

822
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: think they're missing or they're gone, or you know, she

823
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 3: still thinks that there might be a chance. And he said,

824
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 3: you know, Rose Marie, he said John's not coming back.

825
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 3: And I just thought, oh my god. I mean, I

826
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: could cry now just thinking about it. But it was

827
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: just there was a finality to that. And he was

828
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: so lovely and so sweet to me, and so was

829
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 3: his wife Mary, and they were really really amazing to

830
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 3: me throughout the whole thing. But when he said that

831
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: John's not coming back, I just thought it was it

832
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 3: really struck me, and it shocked me, even though I

833
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: guess on some level I knew.

834
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: You had a very heartbreaking conversation with Carolyn's mom. Was

835
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: that on that Friday night?

836
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was at about one o'clock in the morning,

837
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 3: so technically Saturday morning and her maybe it was midnight,

838
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: I can't remember, but she called and she had obviously

839
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 3: heard or Carol had called her. I don't remember how

840
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 3: she was alerted, but she was just panic stricken and

841
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 3: I was trying anything I could to give her hope

842
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 3: and to keep her, to keep her calm because I

843
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: didn't want her to panic either, and I just said,

844
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 3: I'm getting I'm trying to find out as much as

845
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 3: I can. Please don't panic, don't think the worst. I'll

846
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 3: keep calling you. I think I was calling her every

847
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes with any update I could give her. She

848
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 3: was panicked, as any mother would be.

849
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: She said something to you that just broke my heart

850
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: when I read it.

851
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, she said I told him never to take two

852
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: of my daughters up at the same time.

853
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: Because Carolyn was with her sister Lauren.

854
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 3: Yes, Lauren was getting a ride to She was staying

855
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 3: with friends on Martha's Vineyard that weekend, and they were

856
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: going to drop Lauren in Martha's Vineyard and then had

857
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 3: Tyana's for Rory's wedding next day.

858
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: She was really upset and angry at John. Do you

859
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: know if she had that conversation with him, or was

860
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 1: that your only knowledge of her the agreement she thought

861
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: she had made with him. I don't.

862
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 3: I don't have any knowledge of the conversation that she

863
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: had with John. I just I just know what she

864
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 3: said to me that night.

865
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: When you heard that. What was your reaction, you know, Katie,

866
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: at the time, I did. It didn't register with me

867
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: because I was so I was.

868
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 3: Trying so hard to keep her calm and to make

869
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: sure that she was okay, and to try and find

870
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 3: out as much as I could. And like I said,

871
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 3: it hadn't really registered with me yet that they were gone.

872
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: I just I didn't. I really didn't think they were gone.

873
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: Did you have any dealings with Carolyn and Lauren's mother

874
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: after that?

875
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. We stayed in touch for a few years, and

876
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 3: then you know, life starts to happen and go on.

877
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 3: And I think for Anne Freeman, it was difficult for

878
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 3: her to stay in touch with us, with her friend,

879
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: with Carolyn's friends, and with you know, John's friends and

880
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 3: people that she knew, because it was a reminder, and

881
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 3: I think that had to be really difficult for her.

882
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: Was she angry at him? I would be furious. I

883
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: think I'm sure she was. I can't see how she

884
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't be. I can't imagine any mother not being angry

885
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: with the person who was flying the plane in that situation.

886
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 3: How could you not be?

887
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: In the book, it makes pretty clear that maybe John

888
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been flying that plane that night, that it

889
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: was late, that it got dark and foggy, and as

890
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: he turned into the ocean after hugging the coastline on

891
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: the flight, that he needed to rely on instruments, and

892
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: yet he hadn't had enough instrument training. Apparently, according to

893
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: reports after the crash, he'd only completed fifty percent of

894
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 1: formal instrument training. So was he being irresponsible that night?

895
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 1: I hate to say that, because no, I understand. Here

896
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: to defend himself.

897
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand, and I think I think what my

898
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 3: take and I'm not an expert, but I think what

899
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: my take on it was was that the intention was

900
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 3: always to fly at a certain time and leave at

901
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: a certain time and get there at a certain time.

902
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 3: And I don't think John intentionally went into the situation

903
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 3: thinking I don't care what the weather is, I don't

904
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 3: care what I don't think that that was his mindset. Ever.

905
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 3: I think that as the circumstances unfolded, he found himself

906
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 3: in that situation. And I know that he did check

907
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 3: the weather always before he left, he checked a website

908
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: called Pilot Brief that would give detailed updated information on

909
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 3: the weather for pilots. And I think by the time

910
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 3: he got to the airport, and probably even after he

911
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: took off, or shortly before he took off, the weather

912
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 3: situation had turned into something that was dangerous.

913
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 1: Carolyn Bessett was somewhat vilified for her role in making

914
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: John late in the aftermath of the crash. Do you

915
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: feel like she was treated unfairly.

916
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's ridiculous to think that Carolyn was

917
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 3: responsible for that.

918
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't that sort of circulating.

919
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was something about matching a swatch to a

920
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: dress and nail polish. Carolyn would never something about lavender

921
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 3: nail polish. First of all, Carolyn would never wear left

922
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 3: or nail polish.

923
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: But that aside.

924
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 3: They all left at the same time, Carolyn, you know,

925
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 3: I called her a car at the same time to

926
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 3: pick her up. At the same time Lauren and John

927
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: were leaving Manhattan, So it's not like anyone got to

928
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 3: the airport and was waiting for someone else. They all

929
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 3: arrived around the same time. The traffic was hllacious by

930
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 3: the time they left, and I think that the weather

931
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 3: had started to turn. But it wasn't clear when he

932
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 3: got to the airport and when he was ready to

933
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 3: take off that the weather had gotten so bad it

934
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 3: wasn't clear to him. But Carolyn being late, she wasn't late.

935
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 3: They all arrived around the same time.

936
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 1: Why do you think that happened? Was that a continuation

937
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: of sort of the resentment some people had toward her,

938
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 1: or that she was cramping his style, or you know,

939
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: I don't know where did that come from.

940
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's that, or if it's that

941
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 3: people felt like there needed to be a reason because

942
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 3: it seemed so unimaginable, it seemed so heartbreaking, and for

943
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 3: it just to have been an accident sometimes is not

944
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 3: enough for people.

945
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,240
Speaker 1: So there needs to be well, if this hadn't happened.

946
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 3: I mean, we all do that circumstances in our lives,

947
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 3: you know, we look back and say, well, if only

948
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 3: I had done this, or if only I had done that,

949
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 3: or maybe it would have turned out better, maybe I

950
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been in this situation. And I think people

951
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 3: need a reason why something like this happens because it's

952
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 3: so catastrophic.

953
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: Liz, several people in the book intimate that John and

954
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: Carolyn's marriage was not in a great place in the

955
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: last year or so before they were killed. From reading

956
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: and talking to people, what do you think about that assessment.

957
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 4: Well, they were under an incredible amount of stress, you know,

958
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 4: in those last few months, right Anthony's death and pending death,

959
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 4: difficulties at George, trying to find funding, difficulties in the marriage,

960
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 4: and then John's also thinking about politics at the same time.

961
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 5: So they were, right.

962
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 4: From speaking to a lot of friends, they were going

963
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 4: through a difficult time. But you know what's so interesting

964
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 4: about them, and every time I write about them, is

965
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 4: that Carolyn gets on the plane, you know, and she

966
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 4: is going to the family wedding with John and makes

967
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 4: this gesture of reconciliation. And I think there was one

968
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 4: friend of John's who said this was pulled to us

969
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 4: by another friend that said that if somebody says that

970
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 4: they know what was going to happen in the marriage,

971
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 4: they're lying because even John and Carolyn didn't know.

972
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 5: So I just try to keep an open.

973
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 4: Mind, you know, as we were writing about it, and

974
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 4: the truth is, we don't know. But she makes a gesture,

975
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 4: a very big one, I think, to go on the

976
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 4: plane and to be at the family wedding, and that

977
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 4: was very significant.

978
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: Rose Marie, I think you're in probably the best position

979
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: to tell us about their relationship. What was going on

980
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: at that time.

981
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 3: I think they were having difficulties. As Liis mentioned, Anthony

982
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 3: was dying, there was the pressure from to find investors

983
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 3: for George magazine. They were looking to leave the city

984
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 3: they wanted. I mean, they were staying in the city,

985
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 3: but they were looking for a house outside the city

986
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 3: because they were talking about starting a family. And I

987
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: think that there were I mean, the way I look

988
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 3: at it, they had a couple of weeks of you know,

989
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 3: fighting and not being on the same page, but they

990
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 3: still were going to look at this this house outside

991
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 3: of New York. They were still they still wanted that

992
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 3: appointment at the real estate agent. And I think that

993
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: they the fact that they decided to do marriage counseling

994
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 3: was a sign that they wanted this to work, and

995
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 3: they wanted and I don't know that there's a marriage

996
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 3: that exists without difficulties, especially three years in with all

997
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 3: of the pressures that they had, including how public their

998
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 3: lives were. And I think they were trying to rain

999
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 3: things in and get on the same page. But yeah,

1000
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 3: they were. It was difficult, you know, the last few

1001
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 3: weeks were tumultuous and difficult, but they were together.

1002
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: What were their major differences in terms of how they

1003
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 1: lived their lives. Was John more comfortable kind of in

1004
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 1: the spotlight and Carolyn less so or what do you

1005
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: think were the differences that were creating this strain.

1006
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 3: I think one of the major differences was that John

1007
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 3: had this, oh, suck it up and get on with

1008
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 3: it attitude, and Carolyn wanted to be heard and understood

1009
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 3: and she wanted some empathy for what she was going through,

1010
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 3: and John saw that as Oh, come on, people have

1011
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 3: it so much more, you know, like your life's not

1012
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 3: so bad, you know that kind of thing. I mean,

1013
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 3: my husband does that to me. And I wanted to choke.

1014
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it sounds like a typical Yeah,

1015
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: it kind of sounds like a Venus and Mars type thing.

1016
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 3: Yes, it absolutely was. But it was also the fact

1017
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 3: that I think what complicated it was that it was

1018
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 3: frustrating because John had lived his whole life that way.

1019
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 3: He didn't know it any other way. So even if

1020
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 3: he wanted to be able to explain to her how

1021
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,479
Speaker 3: to deal with it, he didn't have a playbook because

1022
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 3: he didn't know it any other way. And it was

1023
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 3: frustrating to her because she wanted him to sort of

1024
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 3: take her by the hand a little bit and say,

1025
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 3: I get it, it's crazy.

1026
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 4: I wanted to add as you were talking, was I

1027
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 4: was remembering, because one thing that surprised us as we

1028
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 4: were doing these interviews is that we ended up talking

1029
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 4: to some guys who work at a place called Croll Security.

1030
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 4: And this is really at the end of John's life,

1031
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 4: and they're looking for more security, and they actually speak

1032
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 4: openly about wanting to have a family, and by John

1033
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 4: never had security, and rose Aways said, right, because he

1034
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 4: thought that that would attract more attention. So he doesn't

1035
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 4: travel with any but there's they make a real serious

1036
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 4: effort to they meet with this it's called Kroll Associates

1037
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 4: or something.

1038
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: And then yes, they're a famous security company in New York.

1039
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 4: Yes, they were speaking with them. And then they also

1040
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 4: went back to one of their colleagues at the DA's

1041
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 4: office to possibly open up an investigation into some paparazzi

1042
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 4: that have been following Carolyn.

1043
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 5: So they were taking real steps.

1044
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 4: And I don't know if you're talking about a family

1045
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 4: talking about taking security. This is that very summer, so

1046
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 4: you know they were they were also contemplating, you know,

1047
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 4: lifestyle change, having a family. This is all happening at

1048
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 4: the same time.

1049
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: So sad. Where do you think they would have bought

1050
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: a house, Rose, Marie?

1051
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 3: They were looking outside the city. Near Sneeden's Landing was

1052
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 3: one place they were looking, and then there were a

1053
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 3: couple of other places I don't remember. There were I

1054
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 3: think one or two other areas that they were looking

1055
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 3: in outside the city. But one of the things about

1056
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 3: Sneeden's Landing that was that they looked at because John

1057
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 3: could kayak across the Hudson to the train and be

1058
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 3: in the city, and they wanted to be near the water.

1059
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: He was such a jock. I remember when I did

1060
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: that interview he rode his bike to the Today Show

1061
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: studios and I was like, what.

1062
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 3: He He did that to all of the Robinhood benefits too,

1063
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 3: where he would ride his bike and chain it up

1064
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 3: and tuckfeedout and cod. He also rode his bike with

1065
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 3: his roller blades on so he could have his roller

1066
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 3: blades with him at the office, so he would ride

1067
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 3: his bike with the roller blades on, and then not

1068
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 3: not on his feet, no, no, on his feet. Really yeah,

1069
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 3: I was actually trying to find a picture of that

1070
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 3: for the book where he's riding his bike with his

1071
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 3: rollerblades on.

1072
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 1: But you couldn't find it now, but I saw it.

1073
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: If John and Carolyn were alive today, they would be

1074
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: sixty four and fifty eight.

1075
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1076
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: Wow, it's so sad to me to hear that they

1077
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: were thinking about starting a family and moving and embarking

1078
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: on this new chapter in their lives despite all the

1079
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: difficulties of being public figures talking to a security company

1080
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: about the safety of their future children. What do you

1081
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: think would have happened? How do you think their lives

1082
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: would have unfolded in these twenty five years since their deaths.

1083
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 3: That's a really long answer, but I think, you know,

1084
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 3: I think it's difficult to say and predict, but I

1085
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 3: can't imagine what their lives and mind would have been

1086
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 3: like with social media, that's for sure. That's one thing.

1087
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 3: And the other thing is, you know, I think that

1088
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 3: they were you know, we talked about the eq of

1089
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 3: John and hers was just as off the charts as

1090
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 3: his was, and I think that they would have, you know,

1091
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 3: navigated their lives in a way that was manageable for

1092
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:17,479
Speaker 3: both of them.

1093
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 1: Liz, do you think about what.

1094
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 4: If, how could you not think about what if, especially

1095
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 4: in these times, you know. And I think I think

1096
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 4: that John really represented a sort of an idealism and

1097
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 4: as did his parents for a lot of people, and.

1098
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 5: Almost that seems.

1099
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 4: Like like a foreign idea now I don't really think

1100
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 4: about right There's not a lot of idealism right now.

1101
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 4: And I think John really loved his country. So just

1102
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 4: as we wrote this book, you know, I did think.

1103
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 5: About that, and of course I think about what if.

1104
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 4: You know, he had this he just represented something so hopeful,

1105
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 4: you know, something so hopeful that was attached to him,

1106
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 4: like you felt good and you saw him. He was

1107
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 4: seemed like such a good person, and he had a

1108
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 4: real gift for friendship and a real empathy towards people.

1109
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 4: And I think you know what Rose was saying about

1110
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:10,919
Speaker 4: going to the person in the corner of the room,

1111
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 4: or whether it's visiting Mike Tyson in prison when no

1112
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:16,479
Speaker 4: one else will.

1113
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 5: So I do think about what if.

1114
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 4: And and he was a he represented a lot of hope,

1115
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 4: and I think even as we wrote about him, I mean,

1116
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 4: it was bittersweet to do this book, but.

1117
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 5: It made me.

1118
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 4: Hopeful in a way that that a person like him existed.

1119
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: That he was.

1120
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 4: I really felt that he was a really good soul

1121
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 4: and a good person.

1122
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 5: I hope that comes through.

1123
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: The book is called JFK. Junior, An intimate oral biography

1124
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: Rosemary Trencio and Liz McNeil. Thank you both for talking

1125
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 1: to me about it. It's a real trip down memory

1126
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: laying in so many ways, and it's a very loving,

1127
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: but honest I think portrayal of this man we lost

1128
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: way too soon, and of course his beautiful wife and

1129
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: her sister, and I always say I don't want Lauren

1130
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: Beset to be forgotten because she was on the plane

1131
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: that night too.

1132
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Katie, Thank you for having us,

1133
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 3: and thank you for participating in the book.

1134
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

1135
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1136
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1137
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

1138
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: oh nine five point two five to five five, or

1139
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,959
Speaker 1: you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would

1140
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

1141
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1142
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 1: Katie Couric, and Courtney LTZ. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

1143
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1144
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1145
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,919
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1146
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1147
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1148
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1149
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1150
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,