Speaker 1: Tape Heeds. It's a production of I Heart Media and
Speaker 1: the NFL. Welcome to another edition and another week as
Speaker 1: we get you ready for the NFL Draft. This is
Speaker 1: Tape Heads Draft Season, a brand new podcast that we're
Speaker 1: doing this season. Bobo schusan longtime radio voice of the
Speaker 1: Jets to college football as well for ESPN, And no
Speaker 1: one has spent more time at NFL films and maybe
Speaker 1: anywhere in the world of breaking down tape than Greg
Speaker 1: co Sell. He of course has been at NFL films
Speaker 1: for over four decades looking at the all twenty two
Speaker 1: and he continues to do that not only for games
Speaker 1: in season and players in season, but also for the
Speaker 1: NFL Draft. Because we look at football players, we kind
Speaker 1: of try to crawl behind the xs and ohs inside
Speaker 1: the game and tell you what the tape says. And Greg,
Speaker 1: in this whole process, since you and I started doing this,
Speaker 1: feels like we snapped our fingers were halfway the draft. Basically,
Speaker 1: we're only a month out from the actual choosing of players,
Speaker 1: but we wanted to start with this week and we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about some individual guys coming up a little
Speaker 1: bit later on some maybe off the radar prospects some
Speaker 1: guys that have jumped out to you that we haven't
Speaker 1: talked about yet at varying positions. But I think what
Speaker 1: people need to understand is what this process is, right Like,
Speaker 1: That's what we're trying to do here. We're trying to
Speaker 1: explain to you what the actual draft processes for teams,
Speaker 1: not the different mock drafts that pop up on your phone,
Speaker 1: on Twitter or on the Internet every five minutes, but
Speaker 1: how teams actually arrive at putting together the board that
Speaker 1: they will use on draft day and what an evolutionary
Speaker 1: process that is. And right we're about three weeks out
Speaker 1: from the combine. We have done a bunch of pro days.
Speaker 1: Now you're gonna get like visits to the team campuses
Speaker 1: for prospects, things like that. There's still meetings to go on.
Speaker 1: You've been watching tape on these guys for a long time.
Speaker 1: Where would you say your process at this point parallels
Speaker 1: you think how teams approach the draft and where you
Speaker 1: are kind of pie chart was or you know, timeline
Speaker 1: was moving towards putting together an actual board that might
Speaker 1: mirror what the teams the NFL are doing to this point, Well, Bob,
Speaker 1: the way I do it, and because I don't work
Speaker 1: for a team, I don't necessarily get obviously to speak
Speaker 1: with players, to do a lot of the due diligence
Speaker 1: that teams do. I don't have access to all that.
Speaker 1: So what I do is I sit in my office
Speaker 1: at NFL Films, and because I work for Films, I
Speaker 1: have access to all the coaching tape and I just
Speaker 1: basically can watch any player, any game, and I can
Speaker 1: watch it in its entirety. And the way it works
Speaker 1: for me is is what the coaching tape shows you
Speaker 1: is first of a play, it shows you the all
Speaker 1: twenty two from the sidelines, so you can see all
Speaker 1: twenty two players, and then the same play, it's followed
Speaker 1: by an end zone shot of it a little tighter,
Speaker 1: but that's where you see the offensive line, the defensive line,
Speaker 1: the linebackers, the quarterback. If you're looking at the quarterback,
Speaker 1: you can see him in a little more detail. So
Speaker 1: I watch full games of players, and there's certain positions
Speaker 1: where you have to sit and you have to go
Speaker 1: through a full game to get a true feel for
Speaker 1: what a player is. You can't watch just a highlight
Speaker 1: of an offensive lineman making ten great blocks you can't
Speaker 1: watch a highlight of a linebacker making his sixty tackles.
Speaker 1: You have to watch games and you have to see,
Speaker 1: one how they're deployed, because that tells you an awful lot.
Speaker 1: And I'll just give you a very quick example. I
Speaker 1: have no idea what this means for the draft, and
Speaker 1: we haven't spoken about this player in our previous four
Speaker 1: segments yet, but Jordan Davis from Georgia, who obviously blew
Speaker 1: up the combine given his size and his movement, he
Speaker 1: did not play on third down for Georgia. So as
Speaker 1: you project and transition a player like that, you have
Speaker 1: to decide what is its role in the NFL, simply
Speaker 1: because he's a big man and a great athlete, and
Speaker 1: you don't know that he doesn't play on third down
Speaker 1: if you're just watching highlights of him making tackles. So
Speaker 1: you've got to go through games. You've got to see
Speaker 1: how players are deployed. You have to see how often
Speaker 1: they play. A lot of players are rotational players. You
Speaker 1: have to see what happens when they get beat. You
Speaker 1: have to see, for instance, a linebacker how we reacts
Speaker 1: to run plays. Is he's seeing what he's supposed to
Speaker 1: be seeing all This takes time, and you know, as
Speaker 1: I joke with people, I'm a one man scouting service,
Speaker 1: so it takes me a long time to watch as
Speaker 1: many players as I can watch. And I wish I
Speaker 1: could watch five players, but unfortunately I can't. Well, I think,
Speaker 1: but I think the parallel here. You are doing this solo. Obviously,
Speaker 1: teams have departments that are doing but teams also are
Speaker 1: sending scouts to campuses to meet with coaches and to
Speaker 1: watch tape in facilities all during the season. Teams are
Speaker 1: interviewing these players, They are bringing prospects to their facilities,
Speaker 1: they are going to the Combine, they are making visits
Speaker 1: to pro days. Adding all of that up. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if people truly remember talking to Terry
Speaker 1: Bradway one time when he was the general manager of
Speaker 1: the Jets about this, and I said to him, you know,
Speaker 1: you guys in this draft or the average draft, are
Speaker 1: gonna pick seven players, all right, sometimes more, sometimes less,
Speaker 1: but on seven rounds you get one pick per round.
Speaker 1: You're gonna pick seven players in the average draft. Do
Speaker 1: people really understand the number of man hours that you
Speaker 1: put in to get ready for that process? And He's like,
Speaker 1: we fill out about five thousand reports like that in
Speaker 1: their file by the time the draft. Actually, the whole
Speaker 1: process is done, and we are setting the board and
Speaker 1: we are ready for our meetings. We're gonna sit in
Speaker 1: the room and everybody's gonna have their say about who
Speaker 1: they think are the under the radar guys, who they
Speaker 1: think are our highest priority. We're gonna set our board
Speaker 1: in our needs, about five thousand reports will be written.
Speaker 1: Now if we need a quarterback. You know, when the
Speaker 1: Jets ad Zack Wilson as the second pick in the draft,
Speaker 1: they might have had twenty five reports on Zach Wilson.
Speaker 1: They probably sent everybody to go see Zach Wilson, right,
Speaker 1: everybody had a chance to go either watches tape, go
Speaker 1: to games, visit the campus, talk to the coaches, all
Speaker 1: of that. They might have one report on a defensive
Speaker 1: tackle at Montana that caught someone's eye when they were
Speaker 1: at the you know whatever, the the one Double A playoffs.
Speaker 1: But add it all up, you're talking about five thousand
Speaker 1: written reports to draft seven guys. It takes a long
Speaker 1: time to accumulate all that information. And that's why I
Speaker 1: think people need to realize that no matter how many
Speaker 1: mock drafts you see right now, don't overreact to those
Speaker 1: mock drafts or what you think people are hearing. The
Speaker 1: teams themselves are still in the process, very much in
Speaker 1: the process, very much dealing with the unknown. Still I
Speaker 1: think of how their board probably will shake out come
Speaker 1: draft Day, and and just to show you, Bob how
Speaker 1: crazy I am, what I often do is, you know,
Speaker 1: I get four or five weeks vacation here, films, and
Speaker 1: a lot of times I don't really go anywhere. So
Speaker 1: what I do is I come in the office for
Speaker 1: those four or five weeks and I start watching players
Speaker 1: who will be in the following year's draft. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: a lot of the guys who are in this draft
Speaker 1: coming up in a month. UM, I watched a lot
Speaker 1: of their tape from their twenty twenty season last summer,
Speaker 1: so now when I watch their tape from this year,
Speaker 1: I have a foundation of what they are because most guys,
Speaker 1: you know, a high high percentage their physical and athletic
Speaker 1: trades don't dramatically change. Um. Obviously, can they become better
Speaker 1: in certain details and nuances and subtleties of a position
Speaker 1: as they get coached. Absolutely, but you're not gonna see
Speaker 1: a guy who's, you know, an average athlete in his
Speaker 1: junior tape become a high level, phenomenal athlete in his
Speaker 1: senior tape. That's not likely to happen. But I try
Speaker 1: to stay, you know, in the summer. I can't watch
Speaker 1: two fifty guys. I don't have that kind of time.
Speaker 1: But if I can get sixty two ninety guys looked
Speaker 1: at in the summer, then when I start after the
Speaker 1: NFL season, because obviously that's my total focus on the
Speaker 1: NFL matchup show, when I start um right after the
Speaker 1: NFL season looking at at the draft of ball players
Speaker 1: for that draft coming up in a couple of months,
Speaker 1: I have a pretty good foundation of a lot of
Speaker 1: the big names, and I'm not starting from scratch. That's
Speaker 1: the way teams do it too. I mean, teams are
Speaker 1: already putting a lot of information in the hopper for
Speaker 1: next year's draft while they're getting ready for this year's draft.
Speaker 1: Like the process never really stops the minute that the
Speaker 1: players are picked at the end of this April. Consider
Speaker 1: next year's draft process starting in every scouting COMBA or
Speaker 1: every you know, every scouting department, every pro personnel department
Speaker 1: in the NFL, they immediately just flip the switch, turn
Speaker 1: the calendar, and start getting ready for next year. And
Speaker 1: and I wonder during this process something that I mean,
Speaker 1: you say you have to watch full games, right, you
Speaker 1: really have to watch the entire game to get the
Speaker 1: true nature of how the game has played for every position.
Speaker 1: But are there some positions like how much times it
Speaker 1: takes you, for instance, to evaluate a wide receiver as
Speaker 1: opposed to how much time it might take you to
Speaker 1: evaluate a safety. Right, a wide receiver has a specific
Speaker 1: route that he is designed to run on every single
Speaker 1: play it is and you could probably see based on
Speaker 1: formation and rout tree and whatnot, whether he did it right,
Speaker 1: whether he did it wrong. Having said that, though, like
Speaker 1: safety is a read and react position, oftentimes I got
Speaker 1: the snap, change the picture and then look at what
Speaker 1: the offense is doing, and then what are my responsibilities?
Speaker 1: And you know it's probably takes I would think more
Speaker 1: time and more film and more reps and more, you know,
Speaker 1: just examples to take a look at a read and
Speaker 1: react defensive players. Then maybe an offensive player like a
Speaker 1: wide receiver that has a set responsibility on every play,
Speaker 1: You're that's a great point, and I'll give you an
Speaker 1: example wide receivers. What I tend to do because obviously
Speaker 1: I try to maximize my time. Why receivers, what I'll
Speaker 1: do is I'll watch all their targets, Okay, and then
Speaker 1: I'll watch a couple of games against really good opponents.
Speaker 1: But you can get a really good feel for receiver
Speaker 1: catches seventy five balls, Bob, he probably has a hundred
Speaker 1: and forty targets. You watch a hundred and forty targets,
Speaker 1: you get a really good feel for what that receiver
Speaker 1: is because you know what the reality. In the NFL,
Speaker 1: receivers are not drafted because of the way they stalk block.
Speaker 1: So yes, it's nice to see a guy who's physical
Speaker 1: and who cares about blocking, But the bottom line is,
Speaker 1: if he's a great receiver, it's not going to impact
Speaker 1: where he's drafted. And the other point you made, that's
Speaker 1: a hundred percent right. Defensive back, safeties and corners, you
Speaker 1: have to watch full games. If you look at a
Speaker 1: corner stats are particularly a good corner, you could see
Speaker 1: that he's got six past defense the whole season and
Speaker 1: maybe three interceptions. You can't just watch those plays. You
Speaker 1: have to see how he plays in particular coverage. Does
Speaker 1: he play press man, how does he play as man?
Speaker 1: Does he play press man physically jamming receivers. Does he
Speaker 1: play what we call mirror match press man where he
Speaker 1: lets the receiver declare his route and then tries to
Speaker 1: get into his hip pocket. How does he play off coverage?
Speaker 1: You know, there's so many factors. Safeties are the same,
Speaker 1: so you have to watch games to see that, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of plays. If it's a post safety,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of plays where he might do nothing,
Speaker 1: but you have to see those two. So defensive backs
Speaker 1: really take a lot of time and it's just it's
Speaker 1: a grind, but you have to do it. Do you
Speaker 1: think dbs are the hardest position to analyze or or
Speaker 1: what would be as if not? Yes, I would say
Speaker 1: they're among the hardest positions to analyze. Sometimes receiver can
Speaker 1: be too because of what they're asked to do and
Speaker 1: what they're not asked to do relative to what they
Speaker 1: will be asked to do in the NFL. But I
Speaker 1: think corner and safety are really difficult positions to evaluate
Speaker 1: when you watch college tape. Also, keeping in mind that
Speaker 1: the hash marks change the total symmetry of the game,
Speaker 1: and you have to be aware of that as you
Speaker 1: try to project and transition corners and safeties to the
Speaker 1: next level. Yeah, I would have thought also offensive lineman
Speaker 1: because of how college football has changed. I remember talking
Speaker 1: to Bill Polian a few years ago. I think we
Speaker 1: talked about this in an earlier episode. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: he came to ESPN and we spent some time. He
Speaker 1: did some games out on the road, and had a
Speaker 1: chance to catch up with him on campus, and I
Speaker 1: remember just having one of those really cool philosophical football
Speaker 1: questions with a guy who's you know, I mean, if
Speaker 1: there was a MENSI meating for football, like Bill Polian
Speaker 1: would be at the head of the room leading the
Speaker 1: MENSI meeting and asking him the most difficult changes in
Speaker 1: the sport in terms of player analysis. And one thing
Speaker 1: he brought up was there is a crisis of offensive
Speaker 1: lineman from the college game to the National Football League
Speaker 1: based on a lot of the air raid offense. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes yard yard and a half splits between offensive linemen
Speaker 1: where they are literally just lining up to pass block.
Speaker 1: Even in some of the more kind of quote unquote
Speaker 1: conservative college offenses that old school I'm gonna mash your
Speaker 1: face in drive blocking, run blocking offensive lineman attitude that
Speaker 1: we need to see in the NFL. It's just not
Speaker 1: that prevalent that much anymore in college football, and it's
Speaker 1: really hard to project. There are obviously some guys that
Speaker 1: can do it. It's their job to sift through the tape,
Speaker 1: find examples and identify a play and a player that
Speaker 1: can do it. But that has to be hard because
Speaker 1: college football has changed in a big way in the
Speaker 1: trenches as well, without question, and an offensive line is
Speaker 1: one of those positions. And we can talk further about this,
Speaker 1: but it is one of those positions that can be
Speaker 1: very difficult because many, many, many offensive lineman college football
Speaker 1: never even put their hand in the ground right, no doubt.
Speaker 1: And look, when we come back, I want to talk
Speaker 1: also about how the game has changed right in other
Speaker 1: ways and why some positions are probably harder to analyze
Speaker 1: us now than they used to be. And also we're
Speaker 1: gonna do what we do every week, and that is
Speaker 1: talk about some players. You know who they are, what
Speaker 1: they're good at, the guys that jumped out to you
Speaker 1: on tape this week that we haven't talked about yet
Speaker 1: at varying positions. So if you're a football nerd like us,
Speaker 1: you're at the bar with your buddy and you want
Speaker 1: to kind of wink at your buddy and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I got a guy for you. Watch if you see
Speaker 1: this guy go in the fourth round. Our team got
Speaker 1: a gem. There are some guys that Greg will be
Speaker 1: able to give you an insight about that whose names
Speaker 1: you might not have heard of in the process to
Speaker 1: this point, we're gonna talk about where they fit in
Speaker 1: the NFL as well. All of that is coming up
Speaker 1: next on Tape Heeds Draft Season. Welcome back to Taped's
Speaker 1: Draft Season, Baba shoose up Gregg co Sell our latest
Speaker 1: episode not only talking about where Greg is at in
Speaker 1: his draft process, where we think teams are at this
Speaker 1: point in their draft prep process, but also Greg, we
Speaker 1: were just talking a little bit about how the game
Speaker 1: has changed and how back when we were growing up,
Speaker 1: the running back, the big powerful running back, was as
Speaker 1: much a part of your team's success or failure as
Speaker 1: maybe any position. Right in the eighties, you can make
Speaker 1: an argument that of the top ten or twenty stars
Speaker 1: in the NFL, half of them were the running backs,
Speaker 1: and running backs that carried the ball times a game,
Speaker 1: and that was the game plan. That's not the way
Speaker 1: the NFL has played anymore, nor can it be. I mean,
Speaker 1: the football that has played in college has certainly leaked
Speaker 1: into the NFL. The process has evolved, and now it
Speaker 1: seems like the NFL is much more about creating the
Speaker 1: chunk and explosive plays through the passing game than three
Speaker 1: yards and a cloud of dust. How much has that
Speaker 1: changed the draft process for teams tremendously? And the bottom
Speaker 1: line is, I mean, I was at the combine, you know,
Speaker 1: for five days a number of weeks ago, and all
Speaker 1: you hear on both sides offense create explosive plays. Defense
Speaker 1: we cannot allow explosive plays, and the percentage wise, as
Speaker 1: we all know, explosive plays come out of the past
Speaker 1: game far more than the run game. So the goal
Speaker 1: is to create those explosive plays. Now, every team will
Speaker 1: tell you that there are times you do need to
Speaker 1: run the ball, and certainly there are teams like the
Speaker 1: San Francisco forty Niners, uh, the Tennessee Titans. They start
Speaker 1: their offense with the run game. But if you cannot
Speaker 1: create explosive plays throwing the football, and there are multiple
Speaker 1: ways to do that, Bob. Obviously, Kyle Shanahan might do
Speaker 1: it differently than a team that lines up with the
Speaker 1: quarterback and the shotgun or an empty sets and tries
Speaker 1: to create them that way. But the bottom line is,
Speaker 1: if you can't create explosive plays in the past game,
Speaker 1: somewhere along the line, you're going to struggle. And just
Speaker 1: one other point, I think that you never know how
Speaker 1: any given game is going to play out in the NFL,
Speaker 1: so your passing game has to be able to operate
Speaker 1: independently of your run game. It can be dependent on
Speaker 1: your ability to run the ball. And then to get
Speaker 1: to your point about how the college game has changed
Speaker 1: how the NFL goes about it. Probably over of Division
Speaker 1: one college football teams play in a spread formation, So
Speaker 1: now you're getting players who grew up playing that way
Speaker 1: from the time they started playing football. That's what they know.
Speaker 1: So when you draft a guy, uh, it starts with quarterback,
Speaker 1: of course, but it's true with many other positions on
Speaker 1: both sides of the ball. You have to try to
Speaker 1: play to what they know and what they are because
Speaker 1: if you draft a guy high and expect him to
Speaker 1: play right away, you can't teach him a brand new
Speaker 1: language in three months, so you have to teach him
Speaker 1: the language he knows and refine that. So therefore, the
Speaker 1: NFL game has taken more and more from the college game,
Speaker 1: even though the hash marks still make the game somewhat
Speaker 1: different in a meaningful way. The fact is you need
Speaker 1: these players to play right away and to limit the
Speaker 1: explosive plays defensively. There it probably has changed how different
Speaker 1: positions are valued right like pass, rusher, cover, corner. Those
Speaker 1: have always been big time important positions to draft high.
Speaker 1: But one guy, as we promised we would to get
Speaker 1: to some of your or maybe under the radar guys,
Speaker 1: guys we haven't talked about yet, Guys that aren't the
Speaker 1: stars being talked about at the top of the first round.
Speaker 1: But if you're in the bar with your buddies and
Speaker 1: you want to give them a diamond and the rough
Speaker 1: to keep your eyes on and look like a genius,
Speaker 1: when this guy gets picked, we've got a few to
Speaker 1: talk about. And safety is a position that takes on
Speaker 1: an added level of importance. That's why we're talking about
Speaker 1: Kyle Hamilton's maybe being a unicorn, but being drafted potentially
Speaker 1: higher than any safety has ever been drafted in NFL history.
Speaker 1: I know a guy from Michigan that caught your eye
Speaker 1: is Dax Hill. Yes, and I don't know if you
Speaker 1: did a Michigan game, but this kid, this kid is
Speaker 1: is really to me. Um. I mean, Hamilton's is is
Speaker 1: probably special because of that size, the length, the movement,
Speaker 1: and who knows, he could be a top three pick.
Speaker 1: But Daxton Hill, I thought it was one of the
Speaker 1: most intriguing players that I watched. He played field safety,
Speaker 1: meaning he played safety to the wide side of the
Speaker 1: field in Michigan's base defense, and then he played slot
Speaker 1: corner in their sub defenses. Okay, so he's six ft,
Speaker 1: he's a hundred pounds, he ran under four or four
Speaker 1: UM and he's long, he's rangy, he's twitchy, he's explosive.
Speaker 1: It would be very interesting to me to see whoever
Speaker 1: drafts him, and it would not surprise me. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm big mock guy, as you know, Bob,
Speaker 1: But it would not surprise me if he goes in
Speaker 1: the first round, even if it's let's say, after pick twenty,
Speaker 1: just because he can play two positions and he's an
Speaker 1: explosive athlete. And you talk about safety being increasingly important
Speaker 1: today's NFL because he can match up to tight ends,
Speaker 1: no question as a safety, because he matches up to
Speaker 1: slot wide receivers, so he has that experience. So to me,
Speaker 1: someone like Daxton Hill absolutely fits the profile of today's
Speaker 1: NFL because he's a two position player and he can
Speaker 1: play man to man against slot wide receivers and against
Speaker 1: tight ends. So he's a player I would really look
Speaker 1: carefully at, and I'm sure teams are. And of course
Speaker 1: his testing was off the charts. Yep. The Georgia defense,
Speaker 1: of course, was historically good and there will be plenty
Speaker 1: of Georgia defensive players taken in this draft. You mentioned
Speaker 1: Jordan Davis basically breaking the combine and breaking the Internet
Speaker 1: when you know he basically ran what was the equivalent
Speaker 1: for a player of his size of like a three
Speaker 1: eight in the forty right, and it was just ridiculous. Uh,
Speaker 1: the athleticism that he showed for his size. But no
Speaker 1: defense puts up those kind of numbers without some more
Speaker 1: under the radar guys that blend in and play their
Speaker 1: game and take care of their job and show that
Speaker 1: they can be an NFL player. But maybe not the
Speaker 1: star NFL player and Quay Walker linebacker where where is
Speaker 1: human He's more of a maybe a complimentary player than
Speaker 1: a star player. For that Georgia defense, we're still an
Speaker 1: NFL player. Well, if you know Bob, they get you know,
Speaker 1: twenty five star recruits on defense. So so not everybody
Speaker 1: plays every snap, and you can't hold that against these
Speaker 1: particular players because they don't play every snap. And Klay
Speaker 1: Walker did not play every snap. But he has great size.
Speaker 1: He's six four, he's two forty one. You talk about
Speaker 1: forty time, whatever it means. He ran a four or
Speaker 1: five two, Okay, that's really good for a linebacker at
Speaker 1: his size. So his size, his length, his movement profile
Speaker 1: is exactly what NFL teams are looking for. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's got outstanding size, he's got play speed, he's got
Speaker 1: range what he was really good at. And this is
Speaker 1: again goes back to what we said why you have
Speaker 1: to watch all the plays. When you combine all that
Speaker 1: with his ability to read and recognize what he's seeing,
Speaker 1: the term we like to use is he and diagnose.
Speaker 1: He's very very good at that. So you have a
Speaker 1: stacked linebacker with a full complement of traits needed to
Speaker 1: become a quality starting linebacker in the NFL, and perhaps
Speaker 1: much more. It would not surprise me if Kway Walker
Speaker 1: as he develops with more coaching, with more experience, depending
Speaker 1: on where he goes, we don't know that if he
Speaker 1: becomes I don't want to say a star at top
Speaker 1: three linebacker in the league, but a really, really good
Speaker 1: player now. He has very similar size and athletic trades
Speaker 1: to Jimin Davis, who Washington drafted in the first round
Speaker 1: a year ago and played a good amount for the
Speaker 1: now Commanders. And Davis had some issues with his key
Speaker 1: and diagnosed this year, and I think Walker plays with
Speaker 1: much better eyes than Davis did. So Kuay Walker is
Speaker 1: a fascinating prospect in this draft class. There are always
Speaker 1: coming out of college these days, big time wide receivers.
Speaker 1: Um Baylor's a program to get to Kwon Thornton next.
Speaker 1: I know he's on your list. That you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's hard to diagnose a bailor wide receiver right with
Speaker 1: the system that they've run in the past. I know
Speaker 1: new coaching staff and you know you brought an SEC
Speaker 1: big ten DNA and Dave Randa to Baylor, but you
Speaker 1: know in the Big Twelve. It takes a while for
Speaker 1: the entire evolutionary process of a conference to maybe change
Speaker 1: to look more like the SEC. They're certainly not playing
Speaker 1: against SEC level defensive backs all the time in the
Speaker 1: Big twelve as well. So, having said all of that,
Speaker 1: you know, the ability to get off the line of scrimmage,
Speaker 1: the ability to run the complete route tree, like all
Speaker 1: of those things you need to see in an NFL prospect.
Speaker 1: Is a guy like Tae Kwon Thornton from Baylor, someone
Speaker 1: that you are confident can do all of that, Like,
Speaker 1: what are the question marks with him? As the NFL
Speaker 1: looks at his game? Well, I think they'll look at
Speaker 1: his thin, linear build. He's six two and three one.
Speaker 1: He's a track guy. Um, he was a track athlete
Speaker 1: in high school. Um, he was a hundred meter guy
Speaker 1: at two hundred. Your guy, he ran a four to
Speaker 1: eight at the combine. Uh, that's pretty good from what
Speaker 1: I'm told. Um, he obviously has all the measurables. Uh.
Speaker 1: But Uh, the thing that stood out to me was
Speaker 1: that he was a receiver as well. I thought there
Speaker 1: were many snaps in which he showed physicality through his
Speaker 1: route stem when it was demanded, he competed, he played
Speaker 1: tougher than his thin frame might suggest. We know he
Speaker 1: can run. I mean he ran away from people. And
Speaker 1: you know, I always wonder if he played in the
Speaker 1: SEC and he put up similar numbers to what he
Speaker 1: did at Baylor, would we be talking about him as
Speaker 1: a top forty pick. But because as you said, Bob,
Speaker 1: and you're a hun percent correct, he played at Baylor
Speaker 1: lesser conference defensively, not the SEC. People probably think, oh,
Speaker 1: he's a track guy who runs fast. Um, he'll be
Speaker 1: an outside receiver in the NFL. But you know, he's
Speaker 1: from South Florida, and South Florida receivers tend to have
Speaker 1: a lot of grit to them just from where they
Speaker 1: grew up, the high school football that's played in South Florida.
Speaker 1: So he's he's got some competitive toughness and grit to him.
Speaker 1: And he can run. I mean he can freaking run.
Speaker 1: This kid. And I was really impressed with his tape.
Speaker 1: And to be honest with you, I knew nothing about
Speaker 1: him other than he ran afoord to weight at the Combine.
Speaker 1: And then I put his tape on and I was
Speaker 1: really impressed with what I saw. Yeah, there's a really
Speaker 1: good chance if you're a South Florida wide receiver that
Speaker 1: at some point in the NFL you're gonna line up
Speaker 1: across from a defensive back that you lined up from
Speaker 1: across from in high school, right like one of the
Speaker 1: guys when you were like, what Miami Northwestern. Then there's
Speaker 1: a guy from Christopher Columbus to standard across this field
Speaker 1: from you. You know, it's because that is the depth
Speaker 1: of talent certainly in South Florida as far as football
Speaker 1: is concerned. We've got other guys to talk about that
Speaker 1: are under the radar players and some prospects that have
Speaker 1: certainly jumped out. As you've taken a look at the tape,
Speaker 1: We're going to get to even more players that are
Speaker 1: gonna make you look like the smartest guy in the
Speaker 1: room if you bring these names up and cheat and
Speaker 1: use Gregg Costell's information. When we come back here on
Speaker 1: Taped's Draft Season. We are back here on Taped's Draft Season,
Speaker 1: Bobo Shusan and Greg co Seal as we take you
Speaker 1: all the way up to the NFL Draft on this podcast,
Speaker 1: and we're digging into some of the prospects we haven't
Speaker 1: gotten a chance to talk about yet, regardless of position,
Speaker 1: but just players that have caught Greg co sells I
Speaker 1: that you know, at varying positions, he think could be
Speaker 1: a big factor on draft day. And let's get to
Speaker 1: Wyoming's chat Muma and how many how many guys are
Speaker 1: obviously coming out of Wyoming that are going to get
Speaker 1: drafted much less at a linebacker position and have an
Speaker 1: NFL build, But he certainly does. Yeah. And by the way,
Speaker 1: you know he played with for a couple of years.
Speaker 1: He played with Logan Wilson of the Bengals. He came
Speaker 1: in Wyoming a few years ago, and I believe he
Speaker 1: was a second round pick. And you always get the
Speaker 1: level of competition label lobby at you when you play
Speaker 1: at a smaller school, and and for some that's really important.
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now. I've talked to many
Speaker 1: teams who feel that, hey, I don't want to take
Speaker 1: a guy at a smaller level of competition. They just
Speaker 1: don't believe in that. But I think he's a really
Speaker 1: intriguing prospect, really meaningful production, and he was a fun
Speaker 1: player to watch. First of all, he plays with a
Speaker 1: high level of intensity and competitiveness, and his high he's
Speaker 1: a high velocity player. I mean he made a lot
Speaker 1: of plays outside the box. He's got really good play
Speaker 1: speed and range. Another guy that I thought was very
Speaker 1: good with key and diagnosability. His reactions were consistently quick
Speaker 1: inside the box, and when he got to the ball carrier,
Speaker 1: he brought it. He brought the wood. He tackled guys,
Speaker 1: And you know it's funny. We we probably think that
Speaker 1: all linebackers do that, Bob, but you and I both
Speaker 1: know that's not always the case. Um. And when he
Speaker 1: got there, he hits you. So he's going to be
Speaker 1: a fascinating UM guy to to see where he goes
Speaker 1: in the draft. UM, I would say that he played fast.
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody would say, though, that he's sudden
Speaker 1: or explosive. He's a little bit high cut. For some
Speaker 1: teams that might be an issue. They may see his
Speaker 1: transition and change direction not being exactly what they want.
Speaker 1: But I think that he can overcome that because he
Speaker 1: saw it so fast and he reacted so quickly, and
Speaker 1: he got to velocity really fast. So he was a
Speaker 1: fascinating guy to watch. Another fascinating guy, how about Jermaine
Speaker 1: Johnson from Florida State. Um, you know if your team
Speaker 1: doesn't have the Hutchinson Thibodeau level pass rushing pick and
Speaker 1: you're upset that maybe, like even if you're the Jets
Speaker 1: and you don't take one of those guys at four,
Speaker 1: but all of a sudden, you get to ten and
Speaker 1: Jermaine Johnson's name pops up as an edge guy. Is
Speaker 1: he worthy of being drafted that high in the first
Speaker 1: round or is he a maybe a lower in the
Speaker 1: first round, maybe even in the second round type guy?
Speaker 1: Knowing how much teams want to get guys that can
Speaker 1: bend the edge and go hit the quarterback. And by
Speaker 1: the way, he may end up being a better pass
Speaker 1: rusher than either of the two guys you mentioned. You
Speaker 1: never know. This kid is long, he's athletic, he can
Speaker 1: bend um. He played stronger than his lean, wiry frame
Speaker 1: might suggest. There was a power element to his game
Speaker 1: both as a run defender and pass rusher. He's naturally quick,
Speaker 1: he's agile. Um. I thought there was so much to
Speaker 1: unlock in his game as a pass rusher when it
Speaker 1: comes to technique encounters, and I believe he's only scratching
Speaker 1: the surface of his ability to rush the quarterback and
Speaker 1: the note that I made when I finished watching him
Speaker 1: was it would not surprise me if Johnson within two,
Speaker 1: three or four years becomes a strong edge pass rusher
Speaker 1: with the versatility to line up inside as well. I
Speaker 1: think this kid really has a lot to work with.
Speaker 1: And like I said, you never know, but it would
Speaker 1: not surprise me if we're talking about him in in
Speaker 1: three years as arguably the best pass rusher in this
Speaker 1: draft class. You know. And to that point, another question
Speaker 1: that pops up in my head from an evaluation process,
Speaker 1: how hard is it to find a guy like that
Speaker 1: on a team team that quite frankly the last few
Speaker 1: years has been bad, like normally Florida State's real good,
Speaker 1: like competing for national championships, competing for a CEC championships.
Speaker 1: They were right there, you know, kind of going punch
Speaker 1: for punch for a long time when Dabbo Sweeney was
Speaker 1: establishing Clemson as the dominant power of the a c C.
Speaker 1: And now they're going through head coaches every two or
Speaker 1: three years, and it is a program that has been
Speaker 1: in turmoil since Jimbo went to Texas A and M.
Speaker 1: So when you want to get a guy that you
Speaker 1: think might be worthy of a top ten, top fifteen pick,
Speaker 1: if not higher. How hard is it to evaluate that
Speaker 1: level talent on a bad team, because Florida State has
Speaker 1: been a bad team certainly by their standards, the whole
Speaker 1: time he's been there. And it's a great question because
Speaker 1: to me, it doesn't matter. To me, you're looking at
Speaker 1: the player and you're looking at his traits and his attributes. Now, look,
Speaker 1: he's a Georgia transfer bob, as you may know. So
Speaker 1: he played two seasons at Georgia, so he played in
Speaker 1: the SEC. And by the way, his year priory Georgia,
Speaker 1: he played very very well as a rotational player, so
Speaker 1: he had success in the SEC. So you saw Jermaine
Speaker 1: Johnson play against the highest level of college competition. So ultimately,
Speaker 1: when you look at a player like that, you obviously
Speaker 1: start with the traits, the attributes, the characteristics. Does the
Speaker 1: level of competition matter? Sure it does, But then you
Speaker 1: have to try to interpret what you see uh as
Speaker 1: best as you can. And I think Jermaine Johnson has
Speaker 1: high level trades that would play anywhere. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be very interested to see where he gets drafted. You know,
Speaker 1: we sit and talk about all this about Thibodeaux Hutchinson
Speaker 1: obviously both very good prospects as well. We'll get to
Speaker 1: them in future podcasts. But Jermaine Johnson is really an
Speaker 1: intriguing player with the multiplicity of traits he brings to
Speaker 1: the table. Let's run through a few more guys. Another
Speaker 1: guy that can rush the pass or Arnold Ebaketty from
Speaker 1: Penn State. Yeah, Ebic Ketty was was another really interesting
Speaker 1: guy to watch. And and he's a transfer from Temple,
Speaker 1: and you know, Temple's obviously, uh, I forget what conference
Speaker 1: they're in, but it's obviously not considered big big time
Speaker 1: A uh maybe, yeah, but he played four years of
Speaker 1: Temple before he went to Penn State. And uh he
Speaker 1: looks and plays longer than his height, which is just
Speaker 1: over six too. In fact, I knew what his height
Speaker 1: was before I started watching him, and then I put
Speaker 1: the tape on and I thought, Wow, this guy looks
Speaker 1: longer than that. But he was only six two and
Speaker 1: three eight. But he's got kind of a sinewy, sleek frame.
Speaker 1: He kind of snakes and slips into gaps in the
Speaker 1: run game. He wins now, he wins as a pass
Speaker 1: rusher on what we call the high side of the
Speaker 1: offensive tackle, meaning the outside, and he needs to develop
Speaker 1: more counters. There's no question about that. He must develop
Speaker 1: a wider array of pass rush moves and counters. He
Speaker 1: must learn to work the low side or the inside
Speaker 1: of the offensive tackle. But he's got great natural athleticism.
Speaker 1: He's got flexibility and bend. That's one thing you know.
Speaker 1: You talk about level of competition, Bob, as we just
Speaker 1: did with Jermaine Johnson. One thing you really like to
Speaker 1: see with the pass rusher is the ability to bend
Speaker 1: and be flexible because there's a lot of guys that
Speaker 1: can challenge the high side the outside of offensive tackles,
Speaker 1: but when they get there, they're stuck. So they might
Speaker 1: win to the high side, but they can't kind of bend,
Speaker 1: so they get pushed past the quarterback. So it's very
Speaker 1: important to be able to flatten and bend, and Ebiketty
Speaker 1: can do that. Um and I thought that he was
Speaker 1: kind of a complete player. He showed some power and
Speaker 1: quickness as a run defender. Um I think that he
Speaker 1: would start his career in the NFL as a sub
Speaker 1: defense edge pass rusher and then likely develop into a
Speaker 1: full time player. More than likely is an outside linebacker
Speaker 1: and in probably what we call a five two, which
Speaker 1: more and more teams were playing in the NFL. Now, yeah,
Speaker 1: you make a good point to if you're a one
Speaker 1: trick pony in the NFL, it'll take an offensive tackle
Speaker 1: in the NFL, like one half of one game of
Speaker 1: watching you to get ready to realize, like, I've got
Speaker 1: one move that this guy has to you know, he's
Speaker 1: got one move that I have to defeat and other
Speaker 1: than that, he can't beat me otherwise. And you like,
Speaker 1: that's it. Your career is over. You have to have
Speaker 1: a full arsenal of inside outside moves or against the
Speaker 1: tackles as big, as strong, as athletic and as good
Speaker 1: as they are. You can't get to the quarterback. You
Speaker 1: don't get hired. So what about an interior defensive lineman
Speaker 1: and Neil Neil Farrell from l s U. You know,
Speaker 1: it's funny, there's a there's a guy I knew nothing about.
Speaker 1: And obviously L s U gets five stars as well.
Speaker 1: They did not have a great year this year. Obviously
Speaker 1: the last couple of years since they won the national
Speaker 1: championship has not been quite the same. But he was
Speaker 1: a guy because I was watching Stingley. I'm watching other
Speaker 1: players there, you know. I watched him Moan Clark, who
Speaker 1: unfortunately will not play this year. But Farrell's tape I
Speaker 1: thought was consistently impressive, and I thought he presents a
Speaker 1: really strong projection as kind of an interior what we
Speaker 1: call a zero technique lining up head up on the
Speaker 1: offensive center, where a one technique where he's shaded off
Speaker 1: the offensive center. UM six four pounds, and he did
Speaker 1: play in the SEC. He's a gap penetrator. He's got
Speaker 1: disruption trades both with his feet and his hands. UM.
Speaker 1: He controlled the term we like to use Bob as
Speaker 1: he controlled and displaced interior offensive lineman. And that's really
Speaker 1: important for those big guys who are essentially going to
Speaker 1: be rundown players to start. But he's got a trades
Speaker 1: profile that will be in demand. He's got sized, he's
Speaker 1: got length, he's got play strength, he's got heavy hands,
Speaker 1: and he moves pretty well. And you know, the guy
Speaker 1: that I kept thinking about, he's built differently than this guy.
Speaker 1: But the guy that I kept thinking about who was
Speaker 1: on the Super Bowl championship team this year and ended
Speaker 1: up playing in their sub defense, and no one would
Speaker 1: have thought that when he came out of college was
Speaker 1: Greg Gaines of the Ramps. You know, Greg Gaines litter
Speaker 1: really played almost every snap for the Rams as the
Speaker 1: year progressed, and he started out just being a run defender.
Speaker 1: That's what he kind of was in college. And I
Speaker 1: wonder if Neil Farrell, as time goes on, can develop
Speaker 1: into that kind of player, squeezing one more an interesting
Speaker 1: wide receiver prospect. And Kyle Phillips from u C l A, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he I loved watching this guy's tape. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: he's probably pretty purely a slot guy. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think guys move around now, but he's pretty purely a
Speaker 1: slot guy. Fifty four of his fifty nine receptions came
Speaker 1: out of the slot um and you know, it's funny.
Speaker 1: While his time speed does not suggest that he can
Speaker 1: be a vertical dimension, he did run by people in college. Now,
Speaker 1: the Pact twelve did not have the best corners you know,
Speaker 1: in the country, but he had a great savvy about him.
Speaker 1: He understood how to run routes, he understood how to
Speaker 1: set up corners. He attacked the leverage and positioning of
Speaker 1: off coverage corners. He used a combination of body fakes,
Speaker 1: head faints he created space. Um, I'm gonna go a
Speaker 1: little crazy here, Bob and say that when this receiver
Speaker 1: came out of college and no one thought he'd become
Speaker 1: what he just did this past year. But I remember
Speaker 1: Cooper Cup coming out of Eastern Washington, obviously even a
Speaker 1: smaller level of competition the U c l A, which
Speaker 1: is a power of five school, and Cooper Cups a
Speaker 1: much bigger man, and that does mean quite a bit.
Speaker 1: But I thought Cooper Cup could roll out of bed
Speaker 1: and play in the slot coming out of Eastern Washington.
Speaker 1: And I said that at the time. And obviously Cooper
Speaker 1: Cup did not catch a hundred balls as a rookie.
Speaker 1: Kyle Phillips is a smaller version to me of what
Speaker 1: I thought Cup was coming out of Eastern Washington. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't want people to listening to, you know, drive
Speaker 1: off the road. Let's say I'm not suggesting in four
Speaker 1: years or five years, Phillips is gonna catch in a
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty balls in a given season. But he
Speaker 1: kind of reminded me of Cup coming out of college
Speaker 1: and that I think Kyle Phillips could roll out of
Speaker 1: bed and be a quality slot receiver. Tomorrow, great information
Speaker 1: on all of those guys, and coming up on our
Speaker 1: next episode of tapeds Draft Season when it drops on Thursday,
Speaker 1: as we've done each week, we will welcome in some
Speaker 1: of the voices from around college football in the NFL
Speaker 1: that we know and trust. We will be talking to coordinators,
Speaker 1: former gms, and we will welcome our first head coach.
Speaker 1: And this is the guy we should started off with
Speaker 1: as a BC guy because I went to Boston College.
Speaker 1: That's right. We went right to the well for Jeff Halfley,
Speaker 1: the head coach of BC football, spent some time obviously
Speaker 1: not only in college right now, but also in the NFL.
Speaker 1: So it's always interesting to pick the brains of the
Speaker 1: guys that have lived in both worlds about finding the
Speaker 1: best players, how you evaluate talent, what they're looking for
Speaker 1: in the NFL, and what the guys that are college
Speaker 1: coaches no you need to get to the NFL. Jeff
Speaker 1: Halfley is gonna check every one of those boxes for us.
Speaker 1: Coming up on Thursday. Wepe you have a terrific rest
Speaker 1: of your week and we hope that you will join
Speaker 1: us for the next episode of tapeds Draft Season.